Transcript
00:00:00What about impacts on hormones in men?
00:00:02Yeah, so we see changes in testosterone around the birth of a new baby.
00:00:07We don't know as much about how hormones change in adoptive or step parents
00:00:11because there just isn't a lot of research about this.
00:00:14Most of the work is on early parenthood and most of it is focusing on biological parents.
00:00:21So testosterone gets tuned down.
00:00:24Does that increase with caregiving?
00:00:27Yes.
00:00:28In fact, does that happen without caregiving?
00:00:31No.
00:00:32Right.
00:00:32So it's linked, as are the brain changes, to dad's participation in care.
00:00:38Okay.
00:00:39So we see this not just in humans.
00:00:41We see this in animal models as well.
00:00:44You are probably familiar with the challenge hypothesis,
00:00:47the idea that we want high levels of testosterone under certain circumstances.
00:00:52It's adaptive for testosterone to drop in other circumstances.
00:00:56So birds are the classic example.
00:00:59Testosterone levels rise at the start of breeding season.
00:01:02When birds are competing for mates, they're looking to spread their seed.
00:01:05They want as many opportunities as possible, so they need status to try to find a partner.
00:01:11And then after mating has been accomplished, it's immunologically costly to maintain perpetually high levels of T.
00:01:18Testosterone naturally decreases, and the reproductive strategy is shifting towards more nurturing.
00:01:25So instead of maximizing our numbers of babies that we can produce, we want to maximize the odds that any given baby is going to survive.
00:01:35And our hormones kind of follow suit.
00:01:38And you see it in primates, you see it in rodents, as well as in humans.
00:01:42You see these natural shifts.
00:01:45So typically when testosterone decreases, it's serving a function whereby dads are getting more invested in the partner relationship.
00:02:01They are more interested, more motivated to maintain a stable pair bond, and they're less aggressive.
00:02:08So a lot of the work in rodents has looked at sort of territorial aggression.
00:02:14And, you know, when you see a new pup in the nest, do you want to kill them or do you want to care for them?
00:02:20And testosterone levels can sort of modulate where you end up along that continuum.
00:02:28So we want, in general, if anyone is spending a lot of time with infants, to be less motivated to kill and more motivated to care.
00:02:37Risk-taking behavior, as well.
00:02:39Goes down.
00:02:40And you see that, you know, you see actually, in some ways, health improvements.
00:02:45We can talk about dad bod at some point, I'm sure.
00:02:47But you see some health improvements in terms of less risky driving, less likely to get into fights, lower levels of substance use, being more conscientious about doctor checkups.
00:02:59So all of those behaviors that keep us alive and ready to provide for our offspring.
00:03:05Blame it on the testosterone.
00:03:06Shift, sure.
00:03:07Blame it on the testosterone.
00:03:07Yeah.
00:03:08You know, one of my favorite studies around risk-taking behavior and male and female relationships, looking at studies of men,
00:03:17crossing the road and the distance from them to the nearest car in the presence of women or without the presence of women.
00:03:24Yeah.
00:03:24Dude, if there's a woman there, it's like three times closer.
00:03:27Oh, my God.
00:03:27Like, dude, look at how hard I am.
00:03:29Harder than this car.
00:03:32Yeah, that doesn't end well a lot of the time.
00:03:33Typically, you know, a fight between you and a car, you usually lose.
00:03:36Yeah.
00:03:36However, the thing that's interesting there, like, we know that testosterone can change.
00:03:41If we had a ton of weapons on this table, like axes and spears and guns and stuff, and me and the guys walked around and, like, picked them up and played with them, our testosterone would go up.
00:03:52Yeah, and I would be terrified.
00:03:54It's very, yeah.
00:03:55That happens after.
00:03:56Yeah.
00:03:56The way that we close the show out is by wielding weapons inside of this room.
00:04:00Yeah, okay.
00:04:00Yeah, remind me to get out of here for a second.
00:04:02We're live-action role-playing.
00:04:03It's the Middle Ages.
00:04:03So, that sense, the fact that we can be so reactive as men, that we talk about how hormonal women are, and, yes, but reliably.
00:04:15Men, much more unreliably.
00:04:16Yes.
00:04:17Similarly, a lot of hormonal changes, but they don't happen on the same sort of lunar schedule.
00:04:23But what that must mean, I don't know whether this will be the primary drive, because a lot of it's like, there's a girl there, and I'm just going to show how hard I am and how masculine and the risk-taking.
00:04:33Yeah.
00:04:33But also, there'll probably be a bit of an increase in testosterone, and that might push it a little bit more.
00:04:38Yeah.
00:04:38And the same thing will be presumably happening here as well, that there's a relational component.
00:04:43There's this sort of top-down baby.
00:04:45Must be here for baby.
00:04:47Must not drive recklessly.
00:04:48Text whilst driving, et cetera.
00:04:49But also, there is this sort of bottom-up environment that's being created, which encourages us to behave in that way, too.
00:04:56Exactly.
00:04:57Biology and culture work together, as they do in so many ways in parenthood.
00:05:03And, yeah, I think it's really interesting the extent to which our culture is kind of in flux between different models of fatherhood.
00:05:11And so, you know, are we low-T dads or high-T dads?
00:05:15But there's plenty of work suggesting that, you know, in athletic competition, in other opportunities for men to raise their status, you see changes in testosterone.
00:05:27So, testosterone, you know, I think we can talk about testosterone supplementation and what that means for men who want to be dads.
00:05:36I think, to me, what is adaptive about testosterone, as with any other hormone, is that it's responsive to context.
00:05:44And we want to be flexible because we want to have a biology that sets us up to achieve our goals.
00:05:51You're saying that if you were to be taking testosterone enhancement whilst becoming a father, you think that you're able to outwit biology's well-proven environment that it's trying to create inside of you, and you're just plowing through it by injecting yourself with tea?
00:06:09I think that's the fear. That's the risk. And anecdotally, I hear from moms who say, yeah, my husband's been taking tea, and he has no patience with the baby.
00:06:21Who knows? We need better, more rigorous studies to see if that's actually true.
00:06:25Yeah, but he's jacked.
00:06:26Exactly. So there's a trade-off.
00:06:28The baby's growing up with a jacked dad. Come on.
00:06:30Well, and in some contexts, that could be really good. Like, if you have to fight your way out of a cage to get a leg of lamb for your kid, then you probably want high testosterone in early parenthood.
00:06:42But that might not serve the style of fatherhood that is more desired by a lot of couples today.
00:06:48Presumably, as well, if that environment was the one that you were in, your body would detect it and go, hey, there's some more testosterone for you, as opposed to you going, no, shut up.
00:06:58A thousand nanograms per deciliter is absolutely fine.
00:07:01Yeah, well, in risky environments.
00:07:02Believing that you know better than your body does.
00:07:04Yeah, when we're in a risky or competitive environment, men want higher testosterone that's going to serve their goals.
00:07:10It's not always going to serve their goals when they're in a parenting environment.
00:07:14And so, you know, I think the thing about supplementation is we sort of have this idea that manliness is about maintaining perpetually high tea.
00:07:25I think actually positive masculinity is more about adaptability, being flexible and showing up in the way that you need to for changing situations.
00:07:34Well, what a horrendous own goal it would be if you decided to keep your testosterone high in an attempt to show your masculinity and in the process ended your lineage.
00:07:46Yeah.
00:07:47Like, well done, dude.
00:07:48Yeah.
00:07:48Like, you blew through all of the warning signs that you should have been tuned down from.
00:07:53Yeah.
00:07:54So, yeah, I guess testosterone drops when men become engaged fathers, right?
00:07:57Yeah.
00:07:57So, some men will hear that and think, okay, so fatherhood makes you less of a man.
00:08:02Right.
00:08:03Do you think that the fear of losing masculinity by caregiving is actually driving avoidant fatherhood in some ways, maybe?
00:08:10This was something I worried about when writing this book and trying to summarize the science around fatherhood is that the subtitle I joked for a while would be fatherhood gives you a smaller brain, makes you sleepier, sadder, fatter, and have lower testosterone.
00:08:25But it's really good.
00:08:27Jared.
00:08:27It'll give you, so that I don't think that would, that wouldn't sell very many books.
00:08:32Yeah.
00:08:32And we've talked about some of the benefits of fatherhood, like an increased sense of meaning and purpose and neuroprotection in late life.
00:08:39I would argue that being a good dad is one of the most manly things you can do.
00:08:43You're literally rearing the next generation.
00:08:46You're guiding them.
00:08:47You're protecting them.
00:08:48You're inspiring them.
00:08:49You're teaching them.
00:08:51So when you think about what is masculinity for, I would argue that in some ways it's for your ability to be a good dad.
00:08:58So I think we confuse, like just having a certain hormone level equals masculinity.
00:09:05And I would counter argue it's more about what is your social role and how are you showing up to do the things that are needed of you.
00:09:12Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit.
00:09:15But what if I told you there was a solution?
00:09:18Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully, and it won't cost you all your lunch money.
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