00:00:00Could there be an argument made that the current push by the mainstream to sort of dissuade
00:00:05men from aggression and dominance and impulsivity is more unfair genetically than if men are
00:00:15on average less domesticated and appropriate for a gentle modern world and our behavior
00:00:22needs to be curtailed more than women's does?
00:00:26Is that unfair?
00:00:27Gosh, um, it's unfair the word that I would use to that.
00:00:32So-
00:00:33Well, we're being asked to modify our behavior in a manner that women aren't simply because
00:00:38of what modern society-
00:00:39Well, I mean, this has been Richard Reeve's argument.
00:00:43I don't know if you're familiar.
00:00:44He wrote-
00:00:45He's been citing that show.
00:00:46Oh, really?
00:00:47So, you know, like, if we're not going to change schools, then we should redshirt all the boys
00:00:51and give them an extra year as the only- because asking a five-year-old boy to do developmentally
00:00:57the exact same thing as a five-year-old girl isn't unfair in his, in his comparison.
00:01:02You've spent a lot of time talking about dominance and aggression.
00:01:06I want to, I want to go up a level to think if I can articulate this in terms of sort of
00:01:10like more general principles and then go back to your, your specific question.
00:01:16So in questions like this, when we think about fair or unfair, just or unjust, I'm still very
00:01:22heavily influenced by Rawls' political philosopher, John Rawls, and his thought experiment, which
00:01:29is if you didn't know what hand you were going to be dealt in the natural lottery and in the,
00:01:38in the social lottery, what rules would you want for society?
00:01:44And that's an interesting question to think, like, if I didn't know whether or not I was
00:01:49going to be a man or a woman, would I set school up the way that school is set up now?
00:01:56And I can't, I, I actually wish that I could, like, inhabit the mind of a man for a day just
00:02:03to see, like, is it really different?
00:02:05Is it very similar?
00:02:06I'd be fascinated with that.
00:02:07I can't do that, but I have a son, I have a child, and so I can get to, given what I know
00:02:13about sex differences in brain development, in rates of ADHD, in rates of conduct disorder,
00:02:22how would I design, how would I design an educational system such that my sons and my daughters would
00:02:27have an equal opportunity to thrive in them?
00:02:32And it sure as heck wouldn't be what we do now.
00:02:34I mean, my son's in middle school, and I, I think it's culturally insane what we do.
00:02:42Like there is no culture on earth before industrial capitalism that was like, do you know what
00:02:48we should do with our 12 and 13 year old pubertal boys?
00:02:52We should put them inside all day, ask them to sit still with each other and no older boys
00:03:01and no younger kids and no responsibilities, and we should put a 25 year old woman in charge
00:03:07of them.
00:03:08Like…
00:03:09And we should get them to learn stuff that they won't be able to remember a decade later.
00:03:11Like I, whereas he does these once a month, like go play in the woods for the whole day,
00:03:22and there's no screens, and there's a bunch of young men, and it's like we're going to
00:03:25build a fire, and we're going to carve things out of wood, and we're going to like catch
00:03:29turtles, and we're going to fish, and we're going to hide in the brushes, and while we're
00:03:36there, we're going to talk about math, and we're going to talk about the stars, and you
00:03:40can read stuff to prepare for your earth native day.
00:03:43Well, okay.
00:03:44I love it!
00:03:45Maybe I put it in a different way to unfair.
00:03:49Should the additional level of discipline that males, specifically men, are required…
00:03:57Oh, should we have lower standards for this?
00:03:59No, no.
00:04:00The opposite.
00:04:01The opposite.
00:04:02The emotional containment that men are forced to do in order to adhere to a much more domesticated
00:04:09modern world takes more effort than it does for women.
00:04:14It just straight up takes more effort, because we are being asked to be further away from
00:04:17our set point, right?
00:04:19Our predisposition pushes us in a direction that modern society has said that we're not
00:04:23allowed to go in.
00:04:24On average, more so for…
00:04:26There will be more people who find it harder to…
00:04:30Do that.
00:04:31That are men.
00:04:32In a way that is considered…
00:04:33That are men.
00:04:34Yes.
00:04:35I would say a feminization of society, at least in as much as traits that were more typically
00:04:41on the feminine side of the conscientiousness, orderliness, etcetera, etcetera.
00:04:48Lower risk-taking, lower aggression, lower dominance.
00:04:53Those things are being selected for.
00:04:57That means that men need to pay an additional price.
00:04:59It's more effortful for men to behave.
00:05:03And given that, is that something that should be recognized?
00:05:06Is that a kind of price?
00:05:07We often talk about the double shift that women do, where women have work during the day and
00:05:11then they come back home.
00:05:12But nobody ever talks about the additional emotional containment that men have to do,
00:05:15especially given their nature.
00:05:18I mean, so gosh, I've never thought about this before.
00:05:21So everything I'm about to say is I don't have high confidence that I'm right in anything
00:05:28I'm about to say.
00:05:29That's just as a preface.
00:05:30I should do that before every episode.
00:05:34I mean, part of what's difficult for me to think through that is that the distributions
00:05:40differ but they're highly overlapping.
00:05:42Like most men are in the range of normal women and most women are in the range of normal men
00:05:52when it comes to conscientiousness or agreeableness or risk-taking.
00:05:56Like the sex difference or the gender difference, depending on how you conceptualize it, in these
00:06:02traits is going to be the most evident at the extremes.
00:06:10So you know, and we do see…
00:06:14But this works all the way, right?
00:06:15Like if you start to squeeze the bracket and squeeze the window of what is acceptable.
00:06:18Once you get like outside of the tails, men are within the female range and women are in
00:06:25the…
00:06:26I mean, the distributions are very overlapping.
00:06:32When you run it across multiple different traits though, when you're talking aggression and
00:06:36externalizing behavior and impulsivity and risk-taking and dominance, like when you roll
00:06:41all of those together and someone isn't just aggressive or aggressive and risk-taking, they're
00:06:48all of these things together and when you start to Lollapalooza this, almost no woman would
00:06:54be as risk-taking, aggressive, dominant…
00:06:57As the outlying.
00:06:58No.
00:06:59Even if you were to… because on average you have like these massive overlapping distributions,
00:07:05right?
00:07:06Yeah.
00:07:07But as soon as you go, it's this trait and this trait and this trait and this trait.
00:07:11But I don't think that's true because all those things are all correlated with each other.
00:07:16So I think even if you…
00:07:17Surely it would start to push those hills out further.
00:07:20I mean, we could run a simulation to do this, but I think if you were envisioning, like let's
00:07:24say just three traits, some sort of three-dimensional terrain surface, I think that what the things
00:07:32that you're talking about are correlated enough such that men and women are more similar than
00:07:40is commonly assumed.
00:07:43So I do think that there's… we definitely clearly see sex differences at the extremes,
00:07:50at the outlying one, but in terms of like, is your ordinary experience that different
00:07:58than a woman in the 60th percentile?
00:08:02A question would be, we can only see the behavior of people who manifest it.
00:08:07And to say, well, this is where the tails are, how many men should be out on the tails, but
00:08:12a wrangling…
00:08:13They're white-knuckling their way through life.
00:08:15They're white-knuckling their way through domestication.
00:08:17And they're thinking, look, modern society says, I can't behave in that way.
00:08:21I'd really better not.
00:08:22That's a price that men have to pay that women don't.
00:08:24I mean, I think there's a price to…
00:08:28I think I'm being hung up on the price to pay.
00:08:31Like…
00:08:32Effort.
00:08:33I think that there's effort…
00:08:34A denial of their nature.
00:08:37A type of containment.
00:08:38All I'm saying is in a modern world that basically seems to continue to say, unless you're addicted
00:08:44to drugs and jail or homeless, you are still from a kind of privileged background.
00:08:50And there is ways that you as a man aren't even seeing some of the additional costs that
00:08:54women pay – the double shift, the domestic stuff.
00:08:58And I think some interesting data around that.
00:09:01But I think that that is a… the unseen cost, right?
00:09:07Like that would be the unseen cost of being a woman, of being a mother, of the things that
00:09:11you need to get over.
00:09:12I'm just seeing if there's any leeway for sort of guys to have their own equivalent.
00:09:21Their own equivalent like source of grievance or like sense of things that are unfair.
00:09:25I mean, whether or not they should, they clearly do.
00:09:30Like again, I'm not a man, I'm not going to speak for men, obviously.
00:09:35You know, the men that I interact with are my husband.
00:09:39And honestly, the modal man that I interact with these days is an 18 year old college student
00:09:48who's in my class.
00:09:49So sorry to hear that.
00:09:51And you know, who are really just trying to figure out like, what is this life thing about?
00:09:56Like what is this adult thing about?
00:09:58You know, there's whether or not people should feel like society is unfair or society is stacked
00:10:07against them.
00:10:08I don't think any data point, even if I had them that I could come up with to be like,
00:10:14you shouldn't feel like life is unfair.
00:10:18Because here's why.
00:10:19I think that data is really bad at counteracting these kinds of like, vibes of feeling like
00:10:25the headwinds of culture are against you.
00:10:29And everything that I read and all the data I've seen is that men and young men in particular
00:10:34feel like they really struggle to articulate what is my role in society?
00:10:41Am I valued in society?
00:10:43There used to be a lane for me, and now I don't know what that lane is anymore.
00:10:48And you could think about like, no, you shouldn't feel that way because like the distributions
00:10:53are overlapping or like, yes, you should feel this way because but like neither one of those
00:10:59really get the question about like, well, what do you do about it?
00:11:03Like, well, also, like, this is your personal experience, but I mean, I find the gap between
00:11:09young men and young women in terms of their perception of society, of politics, of hope
00:11:16for the future, of whether or not they trust each other to be really sad and alarming.
00:11:25And I think anytime you start seeing society in terms of like a zero sum game, like if
00:11:33women are gaining, I'm losing because I'm being asked to do something that's more against
00:11:36my nature.
00:11:37Or if men's problems are given any airtime, that is unfair because actually like women
00:11:44are so disempowered.
00:11:46Yes, like this.
00:11:50I mean, I think it goes back to what I was talking about earlier with like the Norwegian
00:11:54crime, which was that like, when we begin from the perspective of each one of us has value
00:12:01as a human and we are all in the same boat now, like we're all in this society together.
00:12:07So how are we going to make it work for everyone?
00:12:09That feels like a much more productive way forward than trying to adjudicate like which
00:12:16should people think it's unfair or not?
00:12:19Like if they do, you're going to have to start with that like as a starting point.
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