The Dangerous Rise of “Domesticated” Men

CChris Williamson
Mental HealthParentingCocktails/Beer/Wine

Transcript

00:00:00Could there be an argument made that the current push by the mainstream to sort of dissuade
00:00:05men from aggression and dominance and impulsivity is more unfair genetically than if men are
00:00:15on average less domesticated and appropriate for a gentle modern world and our behavior
00:00:22needs to be curtailed more than women's does?
00:00:26Is that unfair?
00:00:27Gosh, um, it's unfair the word that I would use to that.
00:00:32So-
00:00:33Well, we're being asked to modify our behavior in a manner that women aren't simply because
00:00:38of what modern society-
00:00:39Well, I mean, this has been Richard Reeve's argument.
00:00:43I don't know if you're familiar.
00:00:44He wrote-
00:00:45He's been citing that show.
00:00:46Oh, really?
00:00:47So, you know, like, if we're not going to change schools, then we should redshirt all the boys
00:00:51and give them an extra year as the only- because asking a five-year-old boy to do developmentally
00:00:57the exact same thing as a five-year-old girl isn't unfair in his, in his comparison.
00:01:02You've spent a lot of time talking about dominance and aggression.
00:01:06I want to, I want to go up a level to think if I can articulate this in terms of sort of
00:01:10like more general principles and then go back to your, your specific question.
00:01:16So in questions like this, when we think about fair or unfair, just or unjust, I'm still very
00:01:22heavily influenced by Rawls' political philosopher, John Rawls, and his thought experiment, which
00:01:29is if you didn't know what hand you were going to be dealt in the natural lottery and in the,
00:01:38in the social lottery, what rules would you want for society?
00:01:44And that's an interesting question to think, like, if I didn't know whether or not I was
00:01:49going to be a man or a woman, would I set school up the way that school is set up now?
00:01:56And I can't, I, I actually wish that I could, like, inhabit the mind of a man for a day just
00:02:03to see, like, is it really different?
00:02:05Is it very similar?
00:02:06I'd be fascinated with that.
00:02:07I can't do that, but I have a son, I have a child, and so I can get to, given what I know
00:02:13about sex differences in brain development, in rates of ADHD, in rates of conduct disorder,
00:02:22how would I design, how would I design an educational system such that my sons and my daughters would
00:02:27have an equal opportunity to thrive in them?
00:02:32And it sure as heck wouldn't be what we do now.
00:02:34I mean, my son's in middle school, and I, I think it's culturally insane what we do.
00:02:42Like there is no culture on earth before industrial capitalism that was like, do you know what
00:02:48we should do with our 12 and 13 year old pubertal boys?
00:02:52We should put them inside all day, ask them to sit still with each other and no older boys
00:03:01and no younger kids and no responsibilities, and we should put a 25 year old woman in charge
00:03:07of them.
00:03:08Like…
00:03:09And we should get them to learn stuff that they won't be able to remember a decade later.
00:03:11Like I, whereas he does these once a month, like go play in the woods for the whole day,
00:03:22and there's no screens, and there's a bunch of young men, and it's like we're going to
00:03:25build a fire, and we're going to carve things out of wood, and we're going to like catch
00:03:29turtles, and we're going to fish, and we're going to hide in the brushes, and while we're
00:03:36there, we're going to talk about math, and we're going to talk about the stars, and you
00:03:40can read stuff to prepare for your earth native day.
00:03:43Well, okay.
00:03:44I love it!
00:03:45Maybe I put it in a different way to unfair.
00:03:49Should the additional level of discipline that males, specifically men, are required…
00:03:57Oh, should we have lower standards for this?
00:03:59No, no.
00:04:00The opposite.
00:04:01The opposite.
00:04:02The emotional containment that men are forced to do in order to adhere to a much more domesticated
00:04:09modern world takes more effort than it does for women.
00:04:14It just straight up takes more effort, because we are being asked to be further away from
00:04:17our set point, right?
00:04:19Our predisposition pushes us in a direction that modern society has said that we're not
00:04:23allowed to go in.
00:04:24On average, more so for…
00:04:26There will be more people who find it harder to…
00:04:30Do that.
00:04:31That are men.
00:04:32In a way that is considered…
00:04:33That are men.
00:04:34Yes.
00:04:35I would say a feminization of society, at least in as much as traits that were more typically
00:04:41on the feminine side of the conscientiousness, orderliness, etcetera, etcetera.
00:04:48Lower risk-taking, lower aggression, lower dominance.
00:04:53Those things are being selected for.
00:04:57That means that men need to pay an additional price.
00:04:59It's more effortful for men to behave.
00:05:03And given that, is that something that should be recognized?
00:05:06Is that a kind of price?
00:05:07We often talk about the double shift that women do, where women have work during the day and
00:05:11then they come back home.
00:05:12But nobody ever talks about the additional emotional containment that men have to do,
00:05:15especially given their nature.
00:05:18I mean, so gosh, I've never thought about this before.
00:05:21So everything I'm about to say is I don't have high confidence that I'm right in anything
00:05:28I'm about to say.
00:05:29That's just as a preface.
00:05:30I should do that before every episode.
00:05:34I mean, part of what's difficult for me to think through that is that the distributions
00:05:40differ but they're highly overlapping.
00:05:42Like most men are in the range of normal women and most women are in the range of normal men
00:05:52when it comes to conscientiousness or agreeableness or risk-taking.
00:05:56Like the sex difference or the gender difference, depending on how you conceptualize it, in these
00:06:02traits is going to be the most evident at the extremes.
00:06:10So you know, and we do see…
00:06:14But this works all the way, right?
00:06:15Like if you start to squeeze the bracket and squeeze the window of what is acceptable.
00:06:18Once you get like outside of the tails, men are within the female range and women are in
00:06:25the…
00:06:26I mean, the distributions are very overlapping.
00:06:32When you run it across multiple different traits though, when you're talking aggression and
00:06:36externalizing behavior and impulsivity and risk-taking and dominance, like when you roll
00:06:41all of those together and someone isn't just aggressive or aggressive and risk-taking, they're
00:06:48all of these things together and when you start to Lollapalooza this, almost no woman would
00:06:54be as risk-taking, aggressive, dominant…
00:06:57As the outlying.
00:06:58No.
00:06:59Even if you were to… because on average you have like these massive overlapping distributions,
00:07:05right?
00:07:06Yeah.
00:07:07But as soon as you go, it's this trait and this trait and this trait and this trait.
00:07:11But I don't think that's true because all those things are all correlated with each other.
00:07:16So I think even if you…
00:07:17Surely it would start to push those hills out further.
00:07:20I mean, we could run a simulation to do this, but I think if you were envisioning, like let's
00:07:24say just three traits, some sort of three-dimensional terrain surface, I think that what the things
00:07:32that you're talking about are correlated enough such that men and women are more similar than
00:07:40is commonly assumed.
00:07:43So I do think that there's… we definitely clearly see sex differences at the extremes,
00:07:50at the outlying one, but in terms of like, is your ordinary experience that different
00:07:58than a woman in the 60th percentile?
00:08:02A question would be, we can only see the behavior of people who manifest it.
00:08:07And to say, well, this is where the tails are, how many men should be out on the tails, but
00:08:12a wrangling…
00:08:13They're white-knuckling their way through life.
00:08:15They're white-knuckling their way through domestication.
00:08:17And they're thinking, look, modern society says, I can't behave in that way.
00:08:21I'd really better not.
00:08:22That's a price that men have to pay that women don't.
00:08:24I mean, I think there's a price to…
00:08:28I think I'm being hung up on the price to pay.
00:08:31Like…
00:08:32Effort.
00:08:33I think that there's effort…
00:08:34A denial of their nature.
00:08:37A type of containment.
00:08:38All I'm saying is in a modern world that basically seems to continue to say, unless you're addicted
00:08:44to drugs and jail or homeless, you are still from a kind of privileged background.
00:08:50And there is ways that you as a man aren't even seeing some of the additional costs that
00:08:54women pay – the double shift, the domestic stuff.
00:08:58And I think some interesting data around that.
00:09:01But I think that that is a… the unseen cost, right?
00:09:07Like that would be the unseen cost of being a woman, of being a mother, of the things that
00:09:11you need to get over.
00:09:12I'm just seeing if there's any leeway for sort of guys to have their own equivalent.
00:09:21Their own equivalent like source of grievance or like sense of things that are unfair.
00:09:25I mean, whether or not they should, they clearly do.
00:09:30Like again, I'm not a man, I'm not going to speak for men, obviously.
00:09:35You know, the men that I interact with are my husband.
00:09:39And honestly, the modal man that I interact with these days is an 18 year old college student
00:09:48who's in my class.
00:09:49So sorry to hear that.
00:09:51And you know, who are really just trying to figure out like, what is this life thing about?
00:09:56Like what is this adult thing about?
00:09:58You know, there's whether or not people should feel like society is unfair or society is stacked
00:10:07against them.
00:10:08I don't think any data point, even if I had them that I could come up with to be like,
00:10:14you shouldn't feel like life is unfair.
00:10:18Because here's why.
00:10:19I think that data is really bad at counteracting these kinds of like, vibes of feeling like
00:10:25the headwinds of culture are against you.
00:10:29And everything that I read and all the data I've seen is that men and young men in particular
00:10:34feel like they really struggle to articulate what is my role in society?
00:10:41Am I valued in society?
00:10:43There used to be a lane for me, and now I don't know what that lane is anymore.
00:10:48And you could think about like, no, you shouldn't feel that way because like the distributions
00:10:53are overlapping or like, yes, you should feel this way because but like neither one of those
00:10:59really get the question about like, well, what do you do about it?
00:11:03Like, well, also, like, this is your personal experience, but I mean, I find the gap between
00:11:09young men and young women in terms of their perception of society, of politics, of hope
00:11:16for the future, of whether or not they trust each other to be really sad and alarming.
00:11:25And I think anytime you start seeing society in terms of like a zero sum game, like if
00:11:33women are gaining, I'm losing because I'm being asked to do something that's more against
00:11:36my nature.
00:11:37Or if men's problems are given any airtime, that is unfair because actually like women
00:11:44are so disempowered.
00:11:46Yes, like this.
00:11:50I mean, I think it goes back to what I was talking about earlier with like the Norwegian
00:11:54crime, which was that like, when we begin from the perspective of each one of us has value
00:12:01as a human and we are all in the same boat now, like we're all in this society together.
00:12:07So how are we going to make it work for everyone?
00:12:09That feels like a much more productive way forward than trying to adjudicate like which
00:12:16should people think it's unfair or not?
00:12:19Like if they do, you're going to have to start with that like as a starting point.
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Key Takeaway

The discussion explores whether modern society's push for domestication places a unique psychological burden on men by requiring them to suppress biological inclinations, while highlighting the need for a non-zero-sum approach to gender-specific challenges.

Highlights

The conflict between modern societal expectations and male biological predispositions toward aggression and dominance.

Proposed educational reforms such as "redshirting" boys to account for developmental differences compared to girls.

The application of John Rawls' "Veil of Ignorance" to determine fair social and educational structures.

The concept of "emotional containment" as an additional, unseen effort required by men to navigate a domesticated world.

The statistical overlap of male and female personality traits despite significant differences at the extremes.

The growing sense of purposelessness and lack of defined social roles among young men today.

The danger of viewing gender issues as a zero-sum game rather than a collective societal challenge.

Timeline

Biological Predispositions and Educational Fairness

The speakers open by questioning if it is genetically unfair to expect men to curtail behaviors like aggression and dominance in a gentle, modern world. They discuss Richard Reeves' argument regarding the educational system, specifically the idea of "redshirting" boys by starting them in school a year later than girls. This suggestion stems from the observation that asking a five-year-old boy to meet the same developmental milestones as a girl of the same age may be inherently inequitable. The segment highlights how current institutional structures often fail to account for these distinct developmental trajectories. Ultimately, this section sets the stage for a broader debate on whether society asks more of men's behavioral modification than it does of women's.

Rawlsian Philosophy and Schooling for Boys

The conversation shifts to a philosophical level using John Rawls' thought experiment, the "Veil of Ignorance," to determine what rules a person would choose for society without knowing their own gender. The speaker expresses a desire to understand the male experience and notes the high rates of ADHD and conduct disorders in boys as a sign of systemic failure. She criticizes the modern middle school environment for forcing pubertal boys to sit still indoors under the supervision of young women, calling it "culturally insane" compared to historical norms. As an alternative, she describes successful outdoor programs where boys engage in tactile activities like building fires and fishing while learning academic concepts. This section emphasizes that educational systems must be redesigned to allow both sons and daughters an equal opportunity to thrive based on their unique needs.

The Price of Emotional Containment

The dialogue explores the idea that men must exert significant "emotional containment" to adhere to a domesticated, feminized society that values orderliness and low risk-taking. One speaker argues that because men's natural set points are often further away from these modern requirements, behaving appropriately requires more psychological effort. This is framed as a masculine version of the "double shift" often attributed to women, though it remains largely unacknowledged by the public. The speaker posits that society is actively selecting for feminine traits, which forces men to pay an additional price to remain within the bounds of acceptable behavior. This segment highlights the tension between male nature and the "white-knuckling" required to survive in a civilized environment.

Statistical Overlap and the Extremes of Personality

The speakers dive into the psychology of personality traits, noting that while distributions of traits like conscientiousness and risk-taking differ between sexes, they are highly overlapping. The guest argues that most men and women fall within a similar range and that sex differences only become starkly evident at the statistical extremes. However, the host counters by suggesting that when multiple traits like aggression and impulsivity are combined, the gap between the average man and woman widens significantly. They discuss how many men may be suppressing their true nature through sheer willpower because society has deemed their natural inclinations unacceptable. This portion of the transcript examines the nuanced reality of psychological data versus the lived experience of individuals who feel out of place.

The Cultural Crisis of Identity and Hope

In the final thematic section, the speakers address the alarming gap between young men and women regarding their trust in society and hope for the future. The guest notes that young men often struggle to articulate their role in a world where the "lanes" previously available to them have disappeared. She argues that data is often ineffective at counteracting the "vibe" or feeling that the headwinds of culture are stacked against a specific group. The discussion warns against viewing gender progress as a zero-sum game where one group's gain is necessarily another's loss. Instead, the speaker advocates for a perspective that values every human and seeks to make society work for everyone collectively. The conversation concludes by emphasizing that recognizing people's feelings of unfairness is the necessary starting point for any productive path forward.

Sponsorship and Closing Remarks

The video concludes with a promotional segment for Athletic Brewing Co., a company specializing in non-alcoholic craft beers. The host discusses his personal preference for reducing alcohol intake and praises the brand for providing high-quality alternatives that do not compromise on taste. He mentions specific product offerings, including IPAs and limited releases like the Paloma and Moscow Mule. The advertisement highlights the benefits of drinking non-alcoholic beverages, such as avoiding hangovers and maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Finally, viewers are provided with a discount code and a website link to purchase the products, marking the end of the episode's content.

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