00:00:00To be a great community builder, you should be a great facilitator.
00:00:02It is not like social media, like all eyes on you.
00:00:05This is my warning.
00:00:07Don't offer lifetime memberships.
00:00:10Is your community a community for people who want to build communities?
00:00:13Loads of people actually join just to see how I'm running my community
00:00:18and then steal that.
00:00:19So how do you blow away new members with value in their first day?
00:00:23Hey, everyone.
00:00:26Today, I am super excited to explore membership communities with all of you.
00:00:31You might have noticed, but they're kind of exploding right now.
00:00:34And there are so many amazing membership communities that are thriving.
00:00:38But you may have looked at them and thought,
00:00:40am I capable of launching or building one?
00:00:42What's actually involved in running a community like this?
00:00:45And is it applicable to my skill set and my niche?
00:00:48We're going to cover all of that and more today.
00:00:50And I want to give you a real step by step breakdown
00:00:53of how to think about membership communities.
00:00:55Hey, Chris, thank you for having me back.
00:00:57Of course, Tom. Always happy to have you.
00:00:59I think we were just saying a minute ago, it's the third time on the channel.
00:01:02And it's always fun.
00:01:04But I always want to try and up my game again.
00:01:06I'm excited to chat today all about membership communities.
00:01:09So let's start by looking at why membership communities matter.
00:01:13Well, first of all, I love community because it lets you serve your people
00:01:17at scale, and therefore you can have a positive impact at scale.
00:01:20They let you help a lot of people, in essence.
00:01:23Also, you yes, you watching can run a subscription business.
00:01:28One of the most powerful things about membership communities
00:01:30is they're generally on a kind of recurring cadence in terms of member payments.
00:01:34And this is huge.
00:01:36If you've always handled like one of projects, you know, the kind of feast
00:01:39and famine cycle.
00:01:41But if you have a recurring subscription based business,
00:01:43it is incredibly, incredibly powerful.
00:01:46And I personally love this model.
00:01:47Communities can and do work at any scale and any niche.
00:01:51So if you're thinking like, maybe this isn't right for me, trust me,
00:01:54I work with some people in some incredibly like micro niches.
00:01:58I've worked with a face painting community, a community for arborists,
00:02:02which I learned meant tree surgeons.
00:02:05So don't worry about how weird or small your niche is.
00:02:08I promise there's an angle.
00:02:09Communities can be full time and a membership community
00:02:12can be a really big business if you want it to.
00:02:15Or it could just be a side hustle.
00:02:18And I actually run a thriving, pretty successful membership community
00:02:21as a hobby right now, as a side hustle.
00:02:23And I'm going to dig into how I do that around a busy day job
00:02:27and being a new dad.
00:02:29And finally, communities enable members to help members.
00:02:34This is huge. Communities are bigger than you.
00:02:36We're all used to social media, where we have to be the dominant voice
00:02:39all the time and the one coming up with all the answers and all the content.
00:02:42But the truth is, if you build your community right, members
00:02:46are going to be helping each other while you sleep.
00:02:48And this is huge.
00:02:50But I want to caveat some things before we get into today.
00:02:53Building community is not always easy.
00:02:56Communities can take a lot of work, particularly to get off the ground
00:02:59at the very start, and they involve dealing with people a lot.
00:03:03Communities are essentially, you know, people
00:03:06connecting their relationships between human beings.
00:03:09And it's your job to manage those relationships and facilitate them.
00:03:12So you're going to be dealing with people a lot.
00:03:15As a result, you can't really afford to be hands off.
00:03:18This is a common mistake.
00:03:19I see people launch a community, dump a bunch of members in
00:03:21and then think they can sit back and it just doesn't work like that.
00:03:25And in fact, community doesn't sleep.
00:03:28You know, I've taken vacations and had points where maybe my community
00:03:32got a bit quieter because I wasn't there driving it forward.
00:03:34Or maybe I came back to a very full inbox and tons of notifications
00:03:38I had to get back to because the community didn't stop when I wasn't there.
00:03:42And finally, members often won't actually do what you want.
00:03:45And this can feel kind of frustration.
00:03:47It's like, why are you not taking advantage of all the cool stuff in the community?
00:03:51Why are you not engaging?
00:03:52Why are you not talking to people or maybe why are you canceling?
00:03:55They're autonomous human beings.
00:03:58They're not always going to behave like robots.
00:04:00And so, again, dealing with the nuances of people
00:04:02and this ecosystem of humans in your community does come with its challenges.
00:04:07But I want to underline the benefits once again, because despite these challenges,
00:04:11it is possible to run a great community and it is super, super fun
00:04:15and rewarding if you get it right.
00:04:16Chris, I know you run the future pro group.
00:04:19How have you found that experience?
00:04:20I think every point you've outlined is 100 percent true.
00:04:24100 percent true. They don't do what you want.
00:04:26They're like cats in a room.
00:04:28And sometimes they behave and sometimes, you know, we introduce new learning paths,
00:04:32new tools and resources.
00:04:34We have an agent to help them, but they just don't do it.
00:04:38And it's it's like you have to kind of approach this as you can put
00:04:42the best intentions forward, but you have to constantly.
00:04:45I don't know if this is the right word, but train or encourage people
00:04:49to use the things that you've built for them in order for them to succeed.
00:04:53You kind of have to nudge them along the way.
00:04:55Yeah. And part of community I've had to come to terms with is
00:04:58you can do everything right.
00:05:00You can do all the right strategies.
00:05:01You can really, really care.
00:05:03And it's just not going to work out with some members.
00:05:06And that's fine.
00:05:07That's all part of it.
00:05:08And I'm going to break down some tactical things today
00:05:11that you can do to try and give yourself the best chance of success.
00:05:13What I really want you to get from today.
00:05:16And I was talking to Chris about this before we we went live here.
00:05:19But I've been doing this for 20 years now.
00:05:22I've been pretty deep in the community world.
00:05:24I'm CEO of Design Cuts.
00:05:26We're at a million members now and have a real thriving community there.
00:05:30And I've taken all that experience and distilled it recently
00:05:33into the most comprehensive community course on the market.
00:05:35It's nine hours long, 12 modules and 45 lessons.
00:05:38And when I set up this this workshop with Chris, I said, OK,
00:05:42how can I take all of that material and condense it down
00:05:45to less than one hour and give it away for free?
00:05:48So my intention today is to try and give you all the foundations
00:05:51of what it takes to build a successful community
00:05:54and essentially give you the highlight reel from my wider course,
00:05:57because I'm not going to be able to include every bit of nuance,
00:06:00every practical exercise in the course.
00:06:02But I can give you the really, really key big steps
00:06:05that are going to guide you in building your community.
00:06:07So if you're ready, let's dive in.
00:06:11Step one is choose your topic.
00:06:14I feel like people can really overthink this.
00:06:16But for me, it comes down to these three areas, something you're passionate about,
00:06:21something you have genuine experience and credibility in
00:06:24and something where perhaps you see an opportunity.
00:06:27Maybe the market is underserved or there's not a ton of great
00:06:31communities existing already or people are hungry for something like this.
00:06:34If you can get these three areas right, you give yourself half a chance of success.
00:06:39Chris, I know you've talked about ikigai and variants of this,
00:06:42but it really comes down to the same thing, right?
00:06:44It's like, what are you good at?
00:06:46What are you going to have passion for that you can sustain that effort?
00:06:48And what is something the world needs?
00:06:50That's right.
00:06:51This is a different way to describe similar concepts.
00:06:55So 100 percent.
00:06:56And I guess ikigai sounds kind of nicer and fancier than P.O.
00:07:00or however you say this.
00:07:02It's a terrible acronym.
00:07:03Yes, the acronym is not sexy looking.
00:07:06So once you've decided your topic and like I say, it could be anything.
00:07:12It could be, you know, as broad as a community helping marketers
00:07:16or it could be as narrow as the one I mentioned earlier,
00:07:19helping people into face painting.
00:07:21Once you have this, you should craft your value proposition.
00:07:24And the simplest way I can explain how to do this is your community name
00:07:29helps this type of person achieve this type of outcome.
00:07:33Because communities ultimately are going to help members achieve something.
00:07:36Maybe that's feeling less lonely.
00:07:38Maybe it's landing that dream job.
00:07:40Whatever it is, your community should be the vessel
00:07:43for them achieving that success or outcome.
00:07:45Well, let's give it an example here.
00:07:48How do you describe design cuts?
00:07:49Let's both you and I put ourselves into this so that people can see what it sounds.
00:07:53I want to show how people get it wrong first before showing them how to get it right.
00:07:56Because this is a super common mistake.
00:08:00I ask so many people, what's your value proposition for your community?
00:08:03And they're kind of mumble something like, well, my community helps people
00:08:06in the middle age stage alive who are trying to self actualize
00:08:09and reach their fullest potential across a wide spectrum of endeavors
00:08:12while staying true and on and on and on.
00:08:15And Chris, I know you're not so specifically involved in the community world,
00:08:19but you help people all the time, right?
00:08:20I'm sure you see something similar.
00:08:22Yeah, it's just a lot of word salad here.
00:08:24Yeah, word salad. Exactly.
00:08:27So this is a little test which I kind of came up with myself.
00:08:30The podcast test.
00:08:32Can you confidently and concisely deliver your value proposition
00:08:36every time you're interviewed on a podcast?
00:08:38Because if it's this, if it's the long garbled one,
00:08:41you're not going to be able to repeat that word for word every single time,
00:08:45which proves it's not an effective one.
00:08:47But you hear really, really great speakers and people that have nailed this.
00:08:51And you're listening to 20 different podcasts
00:08:53and they're saying the same thing verbatim every single time.
00:08:56So my one for learn community is learn community
00:08:59helps you to launch and grow a successful online community.
00:09:02Pretty short and snappy, right?
00:09:04I don't need to reinvent the wheel or explain that 50 different ways.
00:09:08It's like that's who we are and what we do.
00:09:10Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully that makes sense, Chris.
00:09:12So I'm going to try it. I'm going to try. Yeah, let's do this.
00:09:15Yeah. So the future pro group helps creative entrepreneurs scale their business.
00:09:20And you know what's so good about that?
00:09:23People can self identify. So that crucial bit creative entrepreneurs.
00:09:27People will hear that and say, hold on, that sounds like me.
00:09:30I'm an entrepreneur, but I'm definitely more on the creative side.
00:09:33I'm in a creative industry and such.
00:09:35And it's speaking to their goals and their pain points.
00:09:38You know, they're desperate to scale. They really want to grow.
00:09:40So in one sentence, it's like that's for me and it gives me something I want.
00:09:44Like short, snappy and effective.
00:09:46You should really teach this stuff. Chris, anyone ever tell you?
00:09:50OK, so step two, consider what you actually want to offer inside your community.
00:09:55And honestly, like I can and have talked for an hour just about this.
00:09:59But I'll give you the kind of top level view of how I think about this.
00:10:01There's four different types of value that your membership community can offer.
00:10:05Help, action, learning and connection.
00:10:08Help is, let's say, a space for people to ask questions.
00:10:12And I'm sure you have something similar in the future program, right, Chris?
00:10:15They're like, I need help with this. I'm really stuck.
00:10:17And then you and your team and other members can go and help them, which is awesome.
00:10:21This happens all the time. Yeah.
00:10:23And what's beautiful is the community members helping each other.
00:10:26And then the next one is action, because if people aren't taking action,
00:10:30they're just kind of spinning their wheels.
00:10:32So this is where you can bring in things like sprints or boot camps or challenges
00:10:37where you're basically just guiding and pushing people to take action.
00:10:41And even better, if you can do that as a group, because if you're there
00:10:44with like minded people and you're achieving something over the course of like a week
00:10:48or a day or a month, you're going to collectively feel really good
00:10:51and you're going to appreciate the community more.
00:10:53It's like from being a member of this community, I achieved something.
00:10:57So action is huge. The next one is learning.
00:10:59And again, this can come in loads of different forms.
00:11:01It could be workshops.
00:11:04It could be a knowledge base.
00:11:06It could be content and material in the community, or it could be a course.
00:11:10So there's lots of different ways to teach.
00:11:12But I think by kind of bundling this knowledge and this training
00:11:15into your community and it could be live as well.
00:11:18By the way, you know, teaching life is fantastic or it could be a bit of a blend.
00:11:21So when I first dropped my course, I did it inside our community
00:11:25and I made it a community powered course.
00:11:27So it was like I'm going to drop a module and then I'm going to support
00:11:30that with live sessions and people can actually apply live
00:11:33what they're learning in the course and ask questions.
00:11:36It made it much more interactive.
00:11:38And then finally, there's connection.
00:11:40This one is typically quite overlooked.
00:11:43And what would you imagine?
00:11:45I mean, when I say connection, Chris, in this context,
00:11:47I would imagine how they connect with each other,
00:11:50how they do business with one another. Yeah. Right.
00:11:52So it's about forming relationships,
00:11:55maybe some business networking, something like that.
00:11:58But this is huge.
00:11:59And I'll give you an example inside learning community.
00:12:02I wanted to push connection.
00:12:05And so we were doing things like making intros between members
00:12:08or setting up kind of group chats for like minded members.
00:12:11But I actually started launching connection events where I'm like,
00:12:15we're not going to talk about work.
00:12:16It's not going to be anything professional.
00:12:18We're just going to join the call.
00:12:20And there were things like icebreakers, stupid inside jokes, people opening up
00:12:24and getting vulnerable and just chatting about personal stuff.
00:12:27And as a result, people made genuine friendships from people
00:12:31they met on the call and then engagement in the wider community lifted
00:12:34because you know what?
00:12:36You're more likely to help and interact with people
00:12:39if you have context on them.
00:12:40Think of any community where you're a member.
00:12:42You're much more likely to help the person
00:12:44where you have a kind of loose friendship with them instead of a complete stranger.
00:12:47So by building connection, you kind of feed all the other parts of your community.
00:12:51Super important. We do something similar.
00:12:53We're using air meets. Have you used air meets before?
00:12:56I'm not personally using it, but I'm pretty sure I'm aware of it.
00:13:00Yeah. How are you finding it? We like it a lot.
00:13:02We do these once a month, and there's two components of it
00:13:05that we really like. Number one is speed networking.
00:13:07So you have five minutes to connect with somebody
00:13:10and we give you a quick prompt on how to introduce yourself
00:13:12and talk about what what you need help with and how you can help serve other people.
00:13:18Then when the speed networking stuff is done, that usually runs
00:13:20for about 30 minutes or five or six cycles.
00:13:23Then we we release people to tables and tables are cool
00:13:27because they're organized by subjects.
00:13:29And you can you can sit at a table and leave.
00:13:31You could participate. You can do whatever you want.
00:13:34So it's way more interactive.
00:13:35So we set up tables for people who are interested in video production
00:13:39or social media, marketing or branding or coaching.
00:13:42And they sit at those tables or ones just called catching up
00:13:45and you sit there and people, their self, they run, they run by themselves.
00:13:49There's no agenda.
00:13:50And the these calls usually set up for 90 minutes.
00:13:53But we'll log back in a couple of hours later and people are still hanging out there.
00:13:57So it's it's really neat to see you just landed on two things.
00:14:00And I don't want to skip ahead too much here,
00:14:02but these are two foundational pillars of building community.
00:14:05So number one is that it should happen when you're not there.
00:14:09And as you just said, you leave these calls and the value continues, right?
00:14:14It's not that everyone should be interacting with you personally.
00:14:17The second part is to be a great community builder.
00:14:19You should be a great facilitator.
00:14:21And again, it is not like social media, like you've constantly got the mike.
00:14:25All eyes on you.
00:14:27Everyone's hanging off your every word.
00:14:29A lot of it is about getting out of the way, creating the structure
00:14:32and the spaces to enable connection for your members.
00:14:36So you're putting people in groups, you're bringing them together,
00:14:40you're organizing them, you're creating the themes, you're doing a lot of the,
00:14:43you know, facilitation and logistics, and then you're getting out of the way
00:14:46and letting your members find value through each other.
00:14:49Super underrated people go into community thinking
00:14:52in a social media mindset that it's all about them and it's not.
00:14:56It's about we, not me.
00:14:58Well, speak for yourself and it's all about me.
00:15:01I'm just kidding.
00:15:03I when we do these air meets, I try not to pop into rooms
00:15:08for tables too much because then everybody just shuts up and then wants me to talk.
00:15:12And then it becomes a lot more training or coaching, which is fine.
00:15:15I don't mind that.
00:15:16But then it doesn't allow the community members to get to know each other.
00:15:19So I'm deliberately kind of staying on the outside,
00:15:22just kind of peering in now, not wanting to interrupt what they're doing.
00:15:25I think it's a good approach.
00:15:27Someone told me recently the kids have more fun when the teachers out of the room.
00:15:32So they might learn more when you're in the room.
00:15:35But, you know, they probably connect more when you're not.
00:15:37Let's keep going here.
00:15:38Step three, plan your finances like any business.
00:15:42If you're actually planning to turn this into a business or even a profitable
00:15:45side hustle, make sense to actually think about money.
00:15:48There's two steps because people really over over kind of complicate money.
00:15:52But there's two main things I try and think about.
00:15:54Number one is how much do you actually need to earn?
00:15:57And really, this is what is your take home goal, which, you know,
00:16:00should, of course, be after costs and after tax and all that good stuff.
00:16:04So how much do you want in your pocket at the end of the day?
00:16:07And then how much can you realistically earn?
00:16:09And this is where sometimes I have to give people a reality check
00:16:13because they're like, I want my community to with very little effort
00:16:16and like, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand in the first year.
00:16:19But I have no experience and no audience and no way of reaching members
00:16:23and no track record of doing anything online,
00:16:25in which case that might be unrealistic.
00:16:28So what do you need and what can you actually achieve?
00:16:31Is this kind of remotely similar to any frameworks that you use, Chris?
00:16:35Yeah, I use something like this for calculating your project fees.
00:16:39And it's based on what you need to live and live comfortably
00:16:44divided by the time in which you can actually realistically work
00:16:47and the number of projects you want to take on per month.
00:16:50So that is very similar. Nice.
00:16:52I do think that crucial context of what can they realistically earn
00:16:56is often missed, though, right, because we're not all exactly the same.
00:16:59Like Chris, you have a higher hourly rate than I do.
00:17:03And with your personal brand, you can and should come on that.
00:17:07And that's fine.
00:17:08Like I don't expect to be able to charge the market what you charge.
00:17:11We're at different places currently.
00:17:14Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have a few years on me, so I'm trying just a few.
00:17:18Yeah. And I have a much more expensive shopping habits.
00:17:21So I got to have it.
00:17:23All right. So here's six pricing considerations
00:17:28just to make this exercise a bit easier for people.
00:17:30Number one, like I say, how much do you actually need to earn?
00:17:34So does this community need to support you full time?
00:17:37Or is it perhaps more of a side hustle?
00:17:39In which case it's not so pressing to earn a whole time.
00:17:42What percentage do you want the community to be of your total income?
00:17:46So are you going to have other income streams or consulting or something like that?
00:17:49Or is it all resting on this community?
00:17:52So what is your need figure?
00:17:54Which is, as Chris says, going to cover your living costs.
00:17:57Do you have a recommendation on what is a good percentage of your starting out?
00:18:01It really varies.
00:18:02And I think this is this is the key, right?
00:18:06Often I get questions from community builders
00:18:09and I always say I can't give you one size fits all because there's going to be
00:18:13someone who is building a hobby community
00:18:18that they want to turn into a profitable side hustle and they have very limited time.
00:18:21And there's going to be someone else who wants to go all in
00:18:24and maybe they got some funding and they're pursuing it as a whole business venture.
00:18:27And there's a lot of gray space between.
00:18:29So I can't give a kind of arbitrary percentage.
00:18:32But what I would say is I have a lot of friends
00:18:35and I kind of apply this to my own side hustle when community works.
00:18:39It can be the dominant revenue stream that everything else hangs off
00:18:43because it's much more reliable.
00:18:45And so as your community scales, things like service based income
00:18:49and consulting income can kind of fall away
00:18:51and let you really double down on that community model.
00:18:54The second part is what is a typical price for communities in your space?
00:18:58So this is basically trying to ascertain like the market rate.
00:19:01So you should research other communities in this space and try and establish a range.
00:19:06What is the low end of the market?
00:19:08What are people charging and what's the high end?
00:19:10And that typically is the range you'll be able to operate
00:19:12and unless you want to do something wildly innovative.
00:19:15So you're going to sit somewhere between these
00:19:18and it's up to you whether you want to kind of skew low or high.
00:19:21I have a different take on that. Yeah, please.
00:19:24I think you should think about the experience that you want to create.
00:19:26So if you are interested in having lots of people, then you can afford
00:19:31to charge a little bit less and know that each person gets a little bit less
00:19:34attention from you or the or the resources that you you want to give.
00:19:38But I know a lot of people want to send everybody that's in their community
00:19:42a box of goodies like books and a welcome kit not cost money.
00:19:47And so we know that whenever you're visiting a new town,
00:19:51you have a lot of options from Airbnb to Inns and motels
00:19:55to the Ritz Carlton or the Four Seasons.
00:19:58I think you have to start thinking about what kind of experience you want to create.
00:20:01So I think people in your space give you a starting point,
00:20:05but then you have to add the X factor.
00:20:08Do you want to do a little less, a little bit more and create a really
00:20:11bespoke experience for each member?
00:20:13Then you can charge a little bit more. Yeah, great minds.
00:20:16I have a somewhat similar slide, but I really like how you put it better,
00:20:20to be honest. So what is the ROI for members?
00:20:23And this kind of speaks to the experience.
00:20:25But how much value is your community realistically going to bring members?
00:20:29And this is not just monetary.
00:20:30As Chris touched on there, it's it's about experience.
00:20:33So if you're going to blow them away and give them the Ritz Carlton experience,
00:20:36that's pretty high ROI and you could expect to charge a bit more.
00:20:40You also need to think about how necessary the community is,
00:20:43because some communities are kind of nice to have,
00:20:45where people are going to cut that out of their life pretty quick if funds get tight.
00:20:48But others may help them generate life changing results
00:20:52or just be such an incredible experience.
00:20:54They would never want to give that up.
00:20:56Number four is what model do you actually want for your community?
00:20:59Because if you're doing a VIP mastermind for 10 people,
00:21:04which is still a form of community, that's going to be super high ticket
00:21:07and expensive versus doing a scalable forum community with 400 members.
00:21:12They're going to be on completely different pricing spectrums.
00:21:14Number five is what price can you realistically command?
00:21:17And again, this is that kind of reality check I touched on, where it's like,
00:21:21be honest about your reputation, your audience size and credibility in your market,
00:21:25because an A-list influencer in a market can command more
00:21:28versus an unknown person just starting out.
00:21:31And that's fine. That's to be expected.
00:21:33We all start somewhere and we should be increasing our rates
00:21:36and our prices over time.
00:21:37And finally, and I really like this one, what price gets you excited?
00:21:41This is actually a tip from my friend Jay Clouse.
00:21:43And Jay asked me this question.
00:21:45What price would make you feel excited every time a member signs up?
00:21:48And I think it's a really interesting reframe because if a member signs up
00:21:52and you're like almost resentful, you're like, oh, that's such a low amount.
00:21:55It's not worth my time. That's not good.
00:21:57But I love it. You know, I feel pumped when a new member signs up.
00:22:01I'm like, I can't wait to jump in and serve that member.
00:22:03You know, I've been kind of staggering and increasing our membership price
00:22:07over time. I've done this like three or four times now since launch.
00:22:10And every time I increase it and then a member signs up, I get more
00:22:14and more excited versus if I look at my founding members, right?
00:22:17I'm like, yeah, I really undercharged them. That's no good.
00:22:21And I mentioned at the bottom here, the value seesaw.
00:22:24You need to get value as well as your members.
00:22:26And it needs to kind of float in equilibrium,
00:22:28because if your members get all the value and you get nothing,
00:22:31resentment is going to creep in and you won't be committed and do a good job.
00:22:34Equally, if you get all the value and all the money and the members get no value,
00:22:37they're all going to churn and it's going to destroy your reputation.
00:22:41So you want everyone to be happy, basically.
00:22:43Can we talk about this a little bit more? Yeah, let's do it.
00:22:45About the value seesaw, I like this concept.
00:22:48There's a strong visual here.
00:22:50Can you think of a time when you started some kind of subscription based service
00:22:53where you're like, ah,
00:22:55I don't I'm not feeling good about this. And what was it about it?
00:22:59Can you share something that I will as well? Yeah, totally.
00:23:02So I touched on then our founding members price for learning community.
00:23:06It was pathetically low, to be honest. I was testing the concept.
00:23:10Yeah, yeah, it was way too low. Hence, I keep increasing it.
00:23:13But yeah, it was terrible.
00:23:16I love those founding members and some of them are still with us today,
00:23:19grandfathered into that price.
00:23:21But I look at it now and I think I totally should have got like
00:23:24a quarter of the number of members, but at a much higher price
00:23:28with everything that I continue to learn.
00:23:30And I priced it from a insecure and poor psychological place.
00:23:36How about you? Have you got an example?
00:23:39Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for sharing so openly and transparently
00:23:43in just the level of self-awareness and the confidence to be able to say that.
00:23:46And I think that's where a lot of people run into.
00:23:49They're like, oh, my God, you like me?
00:23:50OK, here's give me five bucks and I'll give you all of my resources
00:23:54and we'll spend 10 hours in the community.
00:23:57I think where this starts to become something
00:23:59where you start to build resentment is the amount of energy
00:24:03you have to put into it versus what you get out of it.
00:24:06It's hard to say like there's a very hard and fast rule,
00:24:09but just think of it in those terms.
00:24:11Communities are very different than, say, client relationship,
00:24:14where we know this is going to be a pain in the butt
00:24:16and they're going to have a lot of expectations on us.
00:24:19And we can hold our nose for a period of time and get through the project.
00:24:23But a community is ongoing.
00:24:25It's organic and it never sleeps, as you mentioned before, Tom.
00:24:28So you kind of have to think about that.
00:24:30There have been a couple of times where I think to myself,
00:24:32gosh, I think I'm doing a little bit too much when you feel like
00:24:36you work for the community.
00:24:38Yeah. And whereas you're not the community leader.
00:24:40So what I what I mean by that?
00:24:42Well, let's say they start bombarding you with like technical problems.
00:24:45I can't log in or where is this resource?
00:24:48And we asked for this four weeks ago.
00:24:50So now you're beholden to them.
00:24:52And it's like now you're you're working for them as an employee.
00:24:55And it doesn't feel good.
00:24:57So I think when you start to get a decent amount of people in your communities
00:25:01and you charge whatever you think, and then you start to do the math,
00:25:04you're like, wow, every single month I can buy a new car.
00:25:07That's pretty dope.
00:25:08So if they want to reach out and quote unquote, harass me, I'm good with that,
00:25:12because that's what that's what is required.
00:25:14Now, I have a very expensive community.
00:25:17It's three thousand dollars a month and there are 10 people in it.
00:25:21So that's generating about thirty thousand dollars a month for me.
00:25:23But the amount of attention and energy
00:25:26I have to put into it is sometimes overwhelming for me.
00:25:29I love working with those community members, but shoot, it's very demanding.
00:25:33So I'm like exhausted after every call because I was like, I have to be on point
00:25:38because they expect so much for paying three thousand dollars a month.
00:25:42Yeah, it's such a good point.
00:25:43And I think tuning into how you feel is so key because it's unsustainable.
00:25:48If you're there feeling harassed and you're not happy with that, change something.
00:25:51Right. Otherwise, you don't want to do this for the next 10 years.
00:25:54I don't think I got a slide on this, but this is my warning publicly.
00:25:59Please don't offer lifetime memberships.
00:26:02They make me very sad.
00:26:04I work with so many people that are really adamant that like,
00:26:06but it's so valuable, I really want to do it.
00:26:08And then you see them like two, three years in where the members
00:26:11are still requesting stuff from them and they're not getting a dime from that.
00:26:16And it creates this complete imbalance where you get excited
00:26:18at the moment they sign up.
00:26:21And then it just becomes increasingly imbalanced as the years go on.
00:26:24I don't like the model.
00:26:25Well, the problem with a lifetime membership is you change, you grow,
00:26:29but the membership doesn't in terms of what it does for you.
00:26:32And you may want to take a break or you might want to do something different.
00:26:35But they're like, wait, wait, wait. You promised us this thing.
00:26:38This is the way you can think about it. It's a marriage.
00:26:41So when you agree to a lifetime membership, you're getting married
00:26:44to each and every single person you make that commitment to.
00:26:47And that's a difficult thing to hold up with so many different people.
00:26:50I like the analogy.
00:26:51By the way, I don't know if you're familiar with this model, Chris,
00:26:55the Van Westendorp pricing model.
00:26:57No, it's the best pricing model I think I've ever seen.
00:27:01And if you search this on YouTube, you'll see the video thumbnail.
00:27:05I've just put up here. It's like four minutes long. Honestly, genius.
00:27:08So if you ask your audience or your network, hey,
00:27:12what do you want to pay for this community or product or whatever it might be?
00:27:15They're always going to give you a lowball answer.
00:27:18It's very ineffective. It's a poor question.
00:27:21Whereas this teaches you to ask four questions.
00:27:24And I think if I can recall them correctly, there's something like
00:27:28at what price would this be so cheap that you would really question the quality?
00:27:34At what price would you consider this to be a bargain?
00:27:38At what price would this be getting on the expensive side for you?
00:27:43And at what price would this be too expensive that it would be prohibitive for you?
00:27:47And you basically input all the data from your answers
00:27:52and you see down the bottom here, it then drops into a graph with four lines
00:27:57and where the lines intersect and form that little kind of square.
00:28:01That's your sweet spot somewhere in there.
00:28:05So it's like a very scientific way of learning from your audience
00:28:08what their sensitivity to pricing is without skewing results like a false answer.
00:28:12I like it. Yeah. Check it out for sure.
00:28:16Also use an MRR calculator.
00:28:19So MRR stands for monthly recurring revenue, which is going to be your favorite
00:28:22thing in the world once you get your community running.
00:28:24And you should at least project out a few years of revenue
00:28:28based on things like how many members you want to get
00:28:31and the price that you want to charge.
00:28:33Because often I get people to do this exercise and then they're like,
00:28:36oh, I'm never going to reach my goals because I'm really under charging
00:28:39or I'm being too ambitious with how many members I need or whatever it might be.
00:28:43So you need to figure out your revenue ceiling.
00:28:45And when you use some of these tools, they're going to tell you
00:28:48at a certain point, you're not going to be able to grow forever.
00:28:51You're going to kind of cap out at this point
00:28:53unless you ramp up your acquisition.
00:28:55So all of this might sound a little bit fancy or technical.
00:29:01To be honest, I rely on tools and there are some really, really good tools out there.
00:29:05So you can find online calculators if you Google MR calculator,
00:29:09and they're going to tell you a lot of this stuff
00:29:11and that you kind of plug your numbers in and just play around.
00:29:13But they really help you make informed decisions around what to charge
00:29:16and and what scale you're trying to build for.
00:29:19It's also really, really key to understand the power of churn.
00:29:24Churn is how many members are going to cancel in your community.
00:29:27And essentially your churn rate is going to inform your growth,
00:29:31often more so than acquisition, right?
00:29:33Everyone's so worried about attracting new members.
00:29:35But if your churn rate is bad, you're really going to struggle to grow.
00:29:38And you can see it has this compounding effect
00:29:41and see it a bit on that graph down the bottom.
00:29:43If you, for example, change the number of people canceling each month
00:29:47from 10 percent to 5 percent, that will let you grow exponentially faster,
00:29:52even if you're attracting the same number of members.
00:29:54I'm sure again, Chris, you've probably seen the impact of churn on your community.
00:29:58For sure. It's a rough one.
00:30:01It's the number I don't like looking at.
00:30:03Right. And often I get the question, what is a kind of reasonable churn?
00:30:07I think the the churn I tend to look at is
00:30:11if you're getting 10 percent or less churn month
00:30:15a month, you're doing you know, you're doing pretty good.
00:30:18If it's 5 percent or less, you're doing exceptionally well.
00:30:21If it's getting up to like 15, 20, 25 percent plus,
00:30:25you've got a bit of a leaky bucket and there's some work to be done
00:30:29to try and improve things there.
00:30:30Otherwise it's going to be hurting your business.
00:30:32But yeah, churn is really tough metaphors here.
00:30:37So we can understand there's a bucket and you can pour as much water
00:30:40into the bucket as you want.
00:30:41But if there are too many holes at the bottom,
00:30:43it could be exhausting for you to fill that bucket.
00:30:45So managing community or subscription model is based on plugging
00:30:49as many holes as possible. It will never be zero. Yeah.
00:30:52But it'll be some percentage.
00:30:54And then putting your efforts into making sure the experience is so good
00:30:57that only people who aren't a good fit wind up leaving.
00:31:00Or perhaps they, quote unquote, graduate from the community
00:31:03and they find that their business model and what they're doing
00:31:06is totally no longer
00:31:08applicable to what it is they used to come to the community for.
00:31:11So, Tom, I'm curious about whether you plan on talking about this
00:31:14or if this is a good time to ask this, which is what have you done
00:31:17to slow the churn rate down?
00:31:19I'm definitely going to cover that.
00:31:21And you will learn that churn is affected by so many things.
00:31:25He touched on some of them there on boarding, acquisition,
00:31:28finding the right members, pricing appropriately.
00:31:31I'll give a nugget now. Right.
00:31:33So your your worst enemy with churn tends to be monthly subscriptions,
00:31:38because in that case, people have 12 decisions to make throughout the year.
00:31:42There's more likelihood for things to go wrong, like card failures,
00:31:46transaction issues and whatnot.
00:31:48And monthly subscriptions tend to attract the least committed people
00:31:52because they just want to kind of trial the community
00:31:54and they're much more likely to leave,
00:31:56which is why I shifted from offering monthly and annual plans
00:31:59to now quarterly and annual.
00:32:01And I've noticed a real improvement in the quality of member
00:32:05and the retention signs look very promising.
00:32:07And I think you're the same, right, Chris? There's no monthly.
00:32:10There's no more monthly.
00:32:11Yeah, we we kind of say you got to make a nine.
00:32:13It takes 90 days to start a new habit.
00:32:16And so we get way more committed people to join.
00:32:18And I'm guessing you would never go back.
00:32:20I don't think there's a compelling reason to go back. Yeah.
00:32:24Yeah, exactly. And I see this time and time and time again.
00:32:27You generally will experience churn the most with your monthly people.
00:32:31Do you do in-person meetups when you talk about connection?
00:32:34You said that there's a connection
00:32:37event that you produce, but do you do this ever in person?
00:32:40We are planning them with design cuts.
00:32:43Given that learning community is a side hustle, there's been talk of it.
00:32:47But I'll be honest, since being a parent, my free time is very limited.
00:32:52There's a lot of stuff if I wasn't Neil is what you're saying.
00:32:55Yeah, that's yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
00:32:57But yeah, it's the dream.
00:33:00I know you have and they've been great. I've been to some of them.
00:33:02All right. Step four, choose a platform.
00:33:04I don't want to go too in depth on this because there's a whole,
00:33:08you know, separate guide I could go through for choosing platforms.
00:33:10But essentially, I go into R&D like research and development mode
00:33:14before picking a platform.
00:33:15What a lot of people do is they're like,
00:33:17are you slack? And they don't really think it through.
00:33:19So instead, try and create a list of all your platform requirements.
00:33:22Try and mark what's a must have and what's a nice to have.
00:33:25And then go and investigate different platform companies
00:33:28and, you know, create a spreadsheet like this.
00:33:31So I anonymized some of the platforms here.
00:33:33But essentially, you can see pretty clearly, it's like in this case,
00:33:37platform two would probably be the best fit because it's just within budget
00:33:41and it does everything you want apart from real time chat,
00:33:45which is a nice to have.
00:33:47So it doesn't matter too much.
00:33:48Whereas all the others kind of have inherent problems.
00:33:50This is a much more objective way of picking platforms
00:33:52instead of just like a gut feel or like a rushed decision.
00:33:55Well, out of curiosity, which is the platform you guys use?
00:33:59I think the same as you.
00:34:01So circle. That's what you guys are on, right?
00:34:03Yes, we use circle.
00:34:05And I'm really happy with it.
00:34:06Not perfect, but it's it's pretty good.
00:34:08I left the slide out here.
00:34:11That's in my main course.
00:34:12But, you know, in Good Will Hunting, you've got Robin Williams
00:34:16where he gives the whole speech of like, you know what sport like?
00:34:19She's not perfect and neither are you.
00:34:21But the question is, are you perfect for each other?
00:34:23So I feel the same way about community platforms.
00:34:26None of them are perfect,
00:34:27but there's going to be some that you kind of fall in love with.
00:34:29And that was circle for me.
00:34:31All right. Step five, validate demand.
00:34:33Find founding members.
00:34:35This is a very, very important step.
00:34:37So if you're going to pay attention to any of them, please make it this one.
00:34:40I highly advise using an application and building a waitlist.
00:34:44What you don't want to do is go away, spend months creating this community
00:34:48and designing it and building all the features and then push it out.
00:34:51And it's quicker.
00:34:52People just don't want it.
00:34:54And Chris, I'm sure with all the stuff you do on your show,
00:34:57you talk to a lot of people who talk about stuff like this, right?
00:34:59It's a very kind of tried and tested method of entrepreneurship
00:35:02beyond even just community.
00:35:05It's like you the ideal way that you launch anything,
00:35:08whether it's a product service or a community,
00:35:12is you need to have more buyers who have expressed intent
00:35:15than what you can supply.
00:35:17So when demand is greater than supply, you're in a good place.
00:35:20And it's a hard thing to do.
00:35:22It really is. It sounds like easy.
00:35:24Like, yeah, let's let's let's do a secret drop with Nike.
00:35:29Jordan Air Force ones or something like that with a limited edition collab.
00:35:33Yeah, well, the world wants that.
00:35:35But you're like, I'm launching my community.
00:35:36I only have 30 products to sell or 30 slots to fill.
00:35:39And you can't get 31 people to be interested.
00:35:42It is a tough thing.
00:35:44So I'm curious, what have you done to be able to create
00:35:47or generate demand that exceeds what you can accommodate?
00:35:52Yeah, it's a good question.
00:35:53I, I cover some of this in a little bit in terms of launch strategy.
00:35:57But I think it's not even necessarily about like cranking up demand
00:36:03at this phase is about seeing if anyone wants it forced up,
00:36:07because maybe your concept is flawed.
00:36:09You know, you really need to see are people interested at all.
00:36:13And so if you went to everyone
00:36:16who was a good prospective fit or fit your member persona
00:36:20and you said, hey, I'm building this thing, are you interested?
00:36:22Do you want to join the waitlist?
00:36:24And they all gave you a hard no.
00:36:26Yes, that is hard.
00:36:28And yes, that's demoralizing.
00:36:29But it's less hard compared to spending months building it
00:36:32and then having the same conversation, trying to sell it.
00:36:35And they tell you no at that point. Right.
00:36:37So you'd rather get the door slammed in your face early on
00:36:39before you've committed too much.
00:36:41That's the whole joy of validation.
00:36:43So as I kind of break down here, like, you know, it helps you prove demand.
00:36:48It helps you prove the concept
00:36:50and avoid this kind of crickets later on when you launch.
00:36:52It also gives you really key member data.
00:36:56So often as part of the waitlist, you can ask questions that are going to let you
00:37:00then take those ideas and shape the community with them.
00:37:03It demonstrates a real willingness from prospective members.
00:37:06And I'll give you a side tip, everyone.
00:37:07So I like having a question on my waitlist that says something like,
00:37:11which plan do you want to sign up for?
00:37:13And they choose and they're like, I want to pay this much for the annual plan
00:37:16or this month, this much for the quarterly plan.
00:37:19And you must include an option that says, sorry, I can't afford this right now
00:37:24because without that, I used to get people picking one of the others
00:37:28and I'd reach out and be like, I think you're a great fit.
00:37:30Like, do you want to join? And they're like, I have no money.
00:37:32Sorry. And I'm like, why do you apply?
00:37:36Yeah, so yeah, how about your funnels? So good. Yeah.
00:37:40Because you're such a charming guy, Tom.
00:37:43Oh, well, back at you, silver tongue devil.
00:37:45So, yeah, it also allows you to filter members against your ideal persona.
00:37:52So you get to learn about these people when they're on the waitlist.
00:37:54And you might look at some people and be like, they're an incredible fit.
00:37:57I want them in my community and other people you like.
00:37:59And I see some red flags, maybe then not going to make the cut.
00:38:03And I actually did this. So you kind of asked how I executed this.
00:38:06I had I had I know, right.
00:38:09I had some existing audience nowhere near as large as yours.
00:38:13But, you know, I had like 40K Instagram followers
00:38:16and 5000 people on my newsletter, my personal one at this point.
00:38:20And I said to myself, I want to launch this community for community builders,
00:38:25but I only want to launch if I can attract 100 founding members
00:38:29that will kind of prove demand and give me enough early cash
00:38:33to get this thing going.
00:38:34So I put out a few comms, did a bit of marketing and said,
00:38:38hey, I'm thinking of building this thing.
00:38:40I'm going to launch it soon, sign up for the waitlist.
00:38:43And I got nearly 400 applications,
00:38:47which meant I was like, cool, this is 400 people that have committed to paying.
00:38:51I whittled down.
00:38:52I had this whole traffic light system that you can kind of see here
00:38:54for like qualifying people.
00:38:56And you can see the tiny price, right?
00:38:57This is what I was talking about near near the right of that image.
00:39:00That's 10 bucks a month, 10 bucks a month or 100 for the year.
00:39:03So no wonder I got 400 people, right?
00:39:05So this pathetic little price and yeah.
00:39:08And so I filtered down and I got my 100 members.
00:39:11So I was like, cool.
00:39:12The great thing about that was not only did I prove the concept worked,
00:39:15but I was like, oh, wow, I need to go build this thing now.
00:39:18So I signed up for circle.
00:39:21I learned the circle platform.
00:39:23I built a whole community in three days because I was like,
00:39:25I got 100 people ready to pay me.
00:39:27I can't hang around now, but it's a much better way to do things that way.
00:39:30You're doing market validation, a product market fit.
00:39:33Does what I do in the price I want to charge.
00:39:38Does the market want this? Is it needed?
00:39:40And so you're doing this before you go and spend the three days
00:39:44building a community only to find out no one wants to sign up.
00:39:47Yeah. And if I didn't have 100 people waiting with money in their hand,
00:39:51I probably would not have spent three days building it.
00:39:54I probably would have spent three months
00:39:56and I would have got all perfectionist and all that other stuff.
00:39:59But when people are there waiting, it really puts a rocket up your behind.
00:40:03I think step six, build the community.
00:40:06This is what I'm talking about.
00:40:07So common mistakes. Let's kind of get into the nitty gritty.
00:40:10You should be structuring your community in a pleasant, enjoyable way
00:40:14for your members. And I see these same mistakes over and over.
00:40:16So first one is it's way too busy.
00:40:19It's got too many sections or on the circle platform.
00:40:21We call them spaces.
00:40:22People just like stuff their community with as much, you know,
00:40:26as many things as they possibly can because they think it brings more value.
00:40:29But actually, it makes it super overwhelming for members.
00:40:32The next thing is it's difficult to navigate or not intuitive.
00:40:35So maybe things are named very unclearly or it just doesn't make that much sense.
00:40:41Again, that's going to be a terrible experience for your members.
00:40:44And the final thing is a poor balance of content versus community.
00:40:48And what I mean by this is people, as I say, they stuff so much content in there
00:40:54that it kind of drowns out these spaces where people can actually connect,
00:40:58interact, ask questions, that kind of stuff.
00:41:00Because 99 percent of what's in the menu is content related.
00:41:04So it starts to feel more like a membership site, whether they're to consume content
00:41:09instead of a membership community where the primary purpose should be,
00:41:12not consumption, but connection.
00:41:15I don't know if you've experienced any of these, Chris,
00:41:17but I've definitely kind of learned by failing in some of these areas.
00:41:21Definitely number one and number three, for sure.
00:41:24We used to run our community on Facebook
00:41:27where you have very little or very few tools to organize the group.
00:41:31And so it was kind of hard to kind of create different spaces
00:41:36for conversations that happen because it was just all like one universal timeline.
00:41:41So when we went to launch our circle community, we added in everything
00:41:45that they've always wanted and what we've always wanted to do.
00:41:48And we found that if you take 100 people and you create 10 spaces,
00:41:52there's a good chance that some space will have zero activity
00:41:55and some will have too much activity.
00:41:57Yep. And you're kind of diluting your audience across these things.
00:42:01And we had to make the hard decision by shutting things down.
00:42:04This is a prime example of when less is actually more.
00:42:08Make it easier for people to figure out.
00:42:10The other thing that you want to take into consideration is for people
00:42:13who have not been on an interface like circle or community like this before,
00:42:17it can and will be very overwhelming for them to like not know where to start.
00:42:22And so the confusion part shuts them down and they can't.
00:42:25It's like too much of a cognitive load, too much processing going on.
00:42:28So they elect to do nothing.
00:42:30Yep. They will very likely be the people who are part of your churn rate
00:42:35because they're like, I'm not getting value from this.
00:42:37It's too complicated. Yeah. So less is more.
00:42:39And the last one, the bottom one is something that we we struggle with
00:42:42because I'm a teacher.
00:42:44I think they want more teaching and more content.
00:42:46And so it got to a point where we are running so many calls
00:42:49and having so many subject matter experts teach things
00:42:54that they're like, we just can't do this anymore.
00:42:57And it's kind of wild to say like, oh, if you like chocolate,
00:43:00here's all you can eat chocolate.
00:43:02And it turns out, first of all, it's not good.
00:43:04And they've come diabetic.
00:43:05It's like, oh, we should we should not do this. Thank you.
00:43:08I appreciate you sharing that because the fact is myself and Chris
00:43:12and even people that, you know, run successful communities,
00:43:15we're constantly learning and we will still make mistakes.
00:43:18And it's trial and error forever.
00:43:21And that's kind of disheartening and freeing, I think, all at the same time,
00:43:25because it makes you realize like it's fine to make mistakes.
00:43:28It's just about tweaking and adjusting and iterating as you go.
00:43:31Also, I know your audience, Chris, are all about brand.
00:43:35You're all about brand. I love brand as well.
00:43:37And I definitely think communities deserve to have their own brand.
00:43:41Right. We shouldn't overlook this when you're building community.
00:43:44I think a good starting point can often be choose three to five words
00:43:48that you want people to associate with your community or use to describe that.
00:43:53So I don't know if any spring to mind, Chris, for a future.
00:43:57Generous, professional.
00:43:59I can see that ambitious,
00:44:02creative.
00:44:04Those are the four words I can think of while you put me on the spot.
00:44:06And you know what?
00:44:07I think they're great because I know other communities
00:44:10that are probably less professional and less ambitious than the future.
00:44:14And I think what you've built has a certain bar
00:44:17of like quality and commitment about it that differentiates it.
00:44:20So, yeah, I think that's a great set of words.
00:44:24What are the three to five words you use to describe your community?
00:44:26You can see them here at the top.
00:44:28So this is for learning community, practical and actionable,
00:44:32because you can probably tell I really hate vague generalisms and theories.
00:44:35I'm like, show me exactly how to do it and how to implement it.
00:44:39Helpful and supportive.
00:44:41And this is like extends to our culture and our members.
00:44:44But I get back to every single question and provide unlimited help
00:44:48because I can do that at the scale that we run it right now.
00:44:50And I really love helping people.
00:44:52So that's like I kind of get a kick out of doing that personal and open.
00:44:56So this is like being vulnerable and being human and sharing and fun,
00:45:00because I think all too often we can get bogged down in
00:45:04in the work and like it can get quite heavy and overwhelming.
00:45:08And I have to remind myself often I'm like to stop and like chill and have some fun.
00:45:12It's like maybe people don't need more work and, you know, tasks to do.
00:45:17Maybe we could just hang out and have some fun.
00:45:18And I think members would like that, too. Yeah.
00:45:21So I don't know if you do anything similar with your brand work, Chris,
00:45:25but I like breaking down touch points in the community
00:45:29and then kind of scoring them against these brand words.
00:45:32So this is a bit out of date now.
00:45:35But when I first put this together, there were definitely areas
00:45:38where I looked at it and I'm like, hmm, like we're kind of failing.
00:45:42We're not really hitting these touch points.
00:45:43So, you know, people experiencing that are not having the brand experience I want.
00:45:48And one example is Circle offer like a default weekly digest that goes out,
00:45:53which is really convenient.
00:45:55You know, if you haven't got time to do a custom one and it's good
00:45:57that it does it for you.
00:45:59But in my case, I'm like, this is failing.
00:46:01It's not hitting my brand words because it's like an automated thing.
00:46:04So I stopped that going out and now I do a custom newsletter
00:46:08that's much more friendly and on brand and has my tone of voice and stuff.
00:46:12So I turn that thing around.
00:46:14So you can kind of quite systematically ensure that your community is on brand
00:46:18by doing a bit of an order of how you set it up.
00:46:21We are when you're breaking out tables and things like that.
00:46:24I'm like, dang, all right.
00:46:26You can tell I've been really, really deep in this world,
00:46:28you know, for a long time, but especially since we chatted two years ago,
00:46:32I've been so deep in figuring this stuff out.
00:46:34I also looked a lot younger and less tired when we chatted two years ago.
00:46:37I went and watched that parent heard it.
00:46:39It hammers you like, all right, step seven, plan and create culture.
00:46:43Culture is so important because if community is all about connections
00:46:46and relationships and human beings, then the culture that binds them together
00:46:49is one of the most powerful things.
00:46:51So what is community culture?
00:46:52It is the expected behaviors and values shared by the group
00:46:57and successful culture should be clear and easy to understand.
00:47:01It should attract the right kind of members into your community
00:47:04and put off the wrong kind of members.
00:47:06It should be something upheld and championed by the members,
00:47:08even when you're not there.
00:47:09And it should be consistent across the community
00:47:11rather than something that kind of ebbs and flows.
00:47:13I thought you might appreciate this example, Chris.
00:47:15But in Cobra Kai, you've got Miyagi Do and Cobra Kai.
00:47:20You could say that they are kind of communities, you know, the karate schools
00:47:25and they're achieving the same outcome.
00:47:27They're literally trying to get their students into the All Valley tournament.
00:47:29They're training them in karate.
00:47:31But they are vastly different in terms of their cultures, right?
00:47:34One's like really mean and violent.
00:47:37And what's the the Cobra Kai motto, right?
00:47:40It's like no mercy or something.
00:47:41Yeah. Also, it's strike first, strike hard, strike fast.
00:47:44And the karate school that you're talking about is called a dojo.
00:47:49Let me help you.
00:47:53Are you just trying to sneak in your last name?
00:47:55But you can tell a lot about these two communities, if you will,
00:47:59to to use your parlance here.
00:48:01Cobra Kai, it's the it's it's like a gang and there's a bunch of them
00:48:06and they wear black and they're non-traditional
00:48:08because they all have like sleeveless geese.
00:48:12And then Miyagi Do is basically the one old man
00:48:15who's kind of like a gardener guy who works on cars.
00:48:17And they only have one student, Daniel LaRusso.
00:48:21So it's community of two.
00:48:23And they're very intimate.
00:48:24And it's like a father son relationship where Cobra Kai
00:48:28is an abusive father son relationship.
00:48:30This is something we've done very intentionally from day one with design cuts.
00:48:33You know, we regularly see we've got thousands of five star reviews now
00:48:37and we see it on our live events.
00:48:39And people are like, I really love the vibe of this community,
00:48:42the feel of this community.
00:48:44And I think that's, you know, at the heart of what we're trying to build there.
00:48:47So when it comes to learn community, I had very intentional traits.
00:48:50I wanted it to be welcoming and inclusive, supportive and kind,
00:48:55practical and actionable, go really deep into problems instead of surface level.
00:48:58Be personal and thoughtful, honest, open and vulnerable and no hierarchy.
00:49:04I wanted it to be very egalitarian.
00:49:06Everyone's opinion matters.
00:49:07Something you can do, I would definitely put together traits
00:49:10that you would love to see in your members,
00:49:12but also try and map the antithesis to this.
00:49:15So what are traits that you really don't want as part of your culture?
00:49:18And I don't want people that are pushy or spammy, judgmental or mean, selfish,
00:49:23feeling like a pressure to show up.
00:49:25So there are some communities where it's like,
00:49:26you must engage every single week or we're going to kick you out.
00:49:29And I didn't want to build that.
00:49:30People who take more than they give.
00:49:32People with poor ethics or morals or people that are overly serious
00:49:35and can't have fun.
00:49:36We haven't had many, but, you know, we've had a couple of members
00:49:38who joined and maybe have gone against the culture and you can really feel it.
00:49:42And when you've defined it, you can identify why that's happening.
00:49:44Have you done anything like this, Chris, or do you just kind of,
00:49:48you know, perhaps have it in your mind right now?
00:49:50We actually have a code of conduct that's pinned to our community
00:49:55and it outlines certain behaviors that we encourage
00:49:58and some things that we say, if you break this, you will be asked to leave.
00:50:01It's powerful.
00:50:02And I love like if you have that pinned for everyone to see
00:50:05as a constant reference point, it's really useful.
00:50:08So how can you build community culture?
00:50:10Because I'm sure we all agree it's very important.
00:50:12But there are specific things that you can do.
00:50:14First thing is lead by example.
00:50:16So much comes from the leader.
00:50:18It's the same way you and I are CEOs in our company.
00:50:21We kind of demonstrate the behavior we'd like to see in our teams
00:50:24or in this case, in our members encourage positive behaviors.
00:50:27So I love to recognize and call out, you know, it could be a public shout out.
00:50:32I've sent voice notes to people being like,
00:50:33you are just being amazing right now in the community.
00:50:35I really appreciate you.
00:50:36And you can also build culture traits into your idol member persona
00:50:42when you're being intentional and thinking, OK, who do I want in the community?
00:50:45I want to make sure my landing page speaks to them.
00:50:48When you're clear on the trades
00:50:51that factors into those kind of key marketing decisions as well.
00:50:55All right. Step eight, plan community events.
00:50:58There's a whole bunch you can do, and I'm going to kind of whip through these.
00:51:00I'm sure you do some of these, Chris, but I wanted to give an overview
00:51:03for people just who are curious about what can I even offer for my members?
00:51:06The first one is AMAs, I ask me anythings or office hours.
00:51:10This is a regular slot where members can join and ask questions.
00:51:14One on one attention is super valuable.
00:51:16So if someone gets a slot to ask a question and in Chris's case,
00:51:19learn from him, that's very valuable for them.
00:51:21And just a tip, if you're struggling with engagement around this, try theming them.
00:51:26This is something that I've implemented recently.
00:51:29And I think often people don't know what they don't know.
00:51:31So if it's super open, it's like, come and ask anything that can be intimidating.
00:51:35But if it's like, come and ask a question around.
00:51:37We did one about engagement recently.
00:51:40More people show up because that kind of prompts them to think of a question
00:51:43around that topic, and they know that everyone else's question
00:51:46is going to be relevant to an area they care about right now versus
00:51:50they're going to join in every other question is going to be like super random.
00:51:53Next up, one on one coaching.
00:51:54You can actually offer this in a scaled community
00:51:56and let people just book in for a limited number of one on one slots with you.
00:52:01So in my community, I call these deep dives and essentially
00:52:04occasionally announce and be like, we've got some free slots
00:52:07and they look up pretty quick.
00:52:08But people love them because they're essentially getting like one on one
00:52:11consulting time, but other members can watch that conversation happen live
00:52:15or watch the replay and learn from it.
00:52:16Workshops. So you or your team could actually show up and teach a specific thing.
00:52:22Also, members can.
00:52:24And I'm going to get into that a little more in a second.
00:52:26Socials. I talked about this before, but you know, it doesn't have to be
00:52:29all about work.
00:52:30You can have social events or connection based events
00:52:32where people can just hang out, have fun and make friends.
00:52:34Connection.
00:52:36So going a bit deeper into this again, you can structure it with ice breakers.
00:52:40I use breakout rooms as well in zoom, which is super powerful.
00:52:43You can pair people off and get them talking about some pretty vulnerable stuff,
00:52:47which can be really, really powerful. Show and tell.
00:52:50So, Chris, I don't know if you do anything like this, but I love basically
00:52:54seeing a member doing something incredible with their community and then say,
00:52:57hey, can we host a session where I kind of half interview you?
00:53:01You have to workshop, but we basically like break down
00:53:04what you're doing successfully so that everyone else can learn from it.
00:53:08I have a question for you here.
00:53:09It just dawned on me something here.
00:53:11Yeah, yeah. Please. Is is your community.
00:53:13A community for people who want to build communities.
00:53:17It's for people who want to launch a community
00:53:20if if they have an idea for one and they need help launching it
00:53:22or they're running one and they're kind of struggling.
00:53:25They're like, I my engagement is not what I want it to be.
00:53:28I'm feeling a bit lost.
00:53:30It's not growing like I want it to be.
00:53:32So, yeah, it's very inception like very meta.
00:53:36Yeah, it definitely is.
00:53:37Yeah, which I love because loads of people actually join
00:53:40just to see how I'm running my community and then steal that
00:53:44and implement it for those which I'm like, please feel free.
00:53:47Like it's great.
00:53:48So, yeah, we do showcases.
00:53:50But yeah, you could map this to anything like in the future pro.
00:53:53It could be like this members crushing it like landing clients.
00:53:56So we're going to, you know, break down how they're doing it.
00:53:58So it doesn't all have to come from you, Chris interviews.
00:54:00So again, this this could be about anything.
00:54:03It doesn't have to be in a showcase format.
00:54:05It could be more free flowing or just learning about
00:54:08some of your more inspiring members shining a light on them role play.
00:54:11Chris, I've seen you do this a lot, actually, and people seem to love it
00:54:14where you get into that like be the client, you be the salesman kind of thing.
00:54:18Definitely works in community.
00:54:20You've done it on Twitter spaces and such as well.
00:54:23But it goes down pretty well, right?
00:54:25Yeah, I love doing this.
00:54:27It's kind of part teaching and part improv.
00:54:30Yeah, exactly.
00:54:31Yeah, people, people find it engaging content as well, I think.
00:54:35This is an interesting one that I thought about recently.
00:54:37It could be that there's something really topical going on.
00:54:40So like in the creative industry, a lot of people are concerned about AI.
00:54:43Some people are freaking out.
00:54:44If that impacts your members, you could have a bit of a town hall
00:54:48where it's like, this is happening right now.
00:54:50Let's talk about it.
00:54:52And people can find that really, really valuable, I think.
00:54:54It's good if you have a framework for discussing things,
00:54:57if you've been trained to be kind of a group coach or group therapy.
00:55:01If you're not, it can actually make the problem worse
00:55:05because people talk about it.
00:55:06And the more they talk about it, the more toxic it becomes.
00:55:08And if there isn't a clear plan and helping to support members,
00:55:12it can actually exacerbate the problem.
00:55:14It's a great point. Yeah.
00:55:16And again, this comes back to being a good facilitator.
00:55:19So you should come.
00:55:20You should be a good kind of, you know, chairperson for the conversation,
00:55:23if you will, have a structure, set expectations, guide the conversation,
00:55:27help moderate.
00:55:28These are the skills of a great community builder feedback meeting.
00:55:32So this can be used to actually learn from your members
00:55:35how to improve the community.
00:55:36So it could literally be like, here's some stuff with planning.
00:55:39What do you all think?
00:55:40Like, how's everyone getting on doing that in a live setting
00:55:43can be incredibly impactful and retreats.
00:55:46We touched on this before. Super fun.
00:55:48I'm in a few communities as a member.
00:55:50One of them is a group called Founders in the UK for entrepreneurs.
00:55:54I'm also in community pros of London,
00:55:57and I've been to in-person retreat several times, and they're awesome.
00:56:00Like people love in real life.
00:56:02And as much as I'm championing online membership communities
00:56:06on this call, I truly think that in real life is where the most magic happens.
00:56:12So if you can bolt that on. Fantastic.
00:56:14And finally, don't burn out because you might be seeing all this stuff.
00:56:18And again, you're tempted to content stuff or in this case, event stuff,
00:56:21because you can you want to show up and serve your members.
00:56:24Super easy to burn out. Events take a lot out of you.
00:56:27So if I start minimal, don't do too many.
00:56:31Don't overcommit because it's a lot easier to ramp up over time
00:56:34instead of take these away.
00:56:36And also consider the time around just being live,
00:56:39because most of these is not just like show up and talk off the top of your head.
00:56:42Some of them take preparation.
00:56:44You have to organize the replays and the content and structure all of that.
00:56:47So there's often more work than people realize. Hence, start simple.
00:56:51And member led is your friend.
00:56:53It's less work for you.
00:56:55It's often better content.
00:56:56And what I found and I've seen this echoed by many, many
00:56:59very talented community builders that I'm friends with.
00:57:01Often your members actually prefer that content, which kind of hurts at first.
00:57:05It's like, but I'm going to be the expert.
00:57:07They're going to respect and appreciate me.
00:57:09And actually, when your members grab the mic and they start teaching something,
00:57:12I think it just adds fresh perspectives, variety.
00:57:16It shouldn't be a one person show.
00:57:19And so I love leaning into member led content.
00:57:22And you can see a couple of examples here like, you know,
00:57:25they're always super fun.
00:57:26People really enjoy them.
00:57:27And yeah, I like the variety it creates.
00:57:29Step nine, launch up until now.
00:57:32We've been exploring, you know, you're trying to validate demand.
00:57:35You've got the concept in mind.
00:57:36People have proven they want it.
00:57:38You're getting some applications and you planned your events.
00:57:41How do you actually launch this thing?
00:57:44So once you've hopefully built this wait list,
00:57:46you want to try and create a launch offer that really converts.
00:57:49I'm a huge fan of leveraging urgency and scarcity.
00:57:52They're two of the best kind of pillars or levers when it comes to marketing.
00:57:56So try something like a limited time discount for founding members,
00:57:59perhaps limited time bonuses or better yet, a member cap.
00:58:03And the third one is my favorite because increasingly I'm going off
00:58:07the idea of discounts and instead I lean more into scarcity.
00:58:10It's much better than saying like you get 50 percent off adjoining.
00:58:14It's much better to say we're only going to let in 20 members
00:58:18for this first cohort and people fight over those 20 slots
00:58:22and there's no discount required.
00:58:24Has that been your experience as well, Chris?
00:58:26Yeah, I think that's the preferred way to go.
00:58:28Yeah, I think you want to say this group is valuable.
00:58:31The reason why it's valuable is because it's going to be very intimate
00:58:33and we're going to spend time working with you and learning from you.
00:58:37So I prefer doing that versus giving a discount.
00:58:41I abhor discounts, by the way. Yeah, I know you do.
00:58:43But yeah, I agree, and I've definitely shifted that way, too.
00:58:49You can also lock members in.
00:58:51You don't have to discount for this, but what you can say is
00:58:54I will be increasing the price in the future.
00:58:56This means that if they're locked in, not only do they feel good,
00:59:00they got in at the rate because they see it go up in six months or a year
00:59:03and think like, I feel really good about my rate.
00:59:05They'll be less likely to cancel
00:59:07because if they cancel and want to rejoin, they're going to have to pay more.
00:59:11And I had this.
00:59:13I invested using a team in the States
00:59:16to help remotely consult and help me build my studio
00:59:19that we're looking at right now that you complimented me on earlier, Chris.
00:59:21And it was a lot of money at the time.
00:59:24I'm not going to lie.
00:59:25You know, I wanted to take it serious and I do a lot of events and courses.
00:59:29So I invested, but it kind of hurt
00:59:31until I saw that they have increased the price nearly 300%
00:59:36in 18 months since I paid for it.
00:59:40So now I look at that price and I'm like, man, I got a steal.
00:59:44Like, I feel amazing about the price that I paid.
00:59:46And your members will feel the same.
00:59:48Step 10, your community landing page,
00:59:52which I should stress is not needed at launch.
00:59:54So when I launched Learn Community, this is kind of funny,
00:59:57but I didn't have a landing page, I think, for six months
01:00:00because I built a wait list and then I just sent people to a payment page
01:00:04and they paid and they went in the community.
01:00:07So I never had like a slick professional page.
01:00:09And I was so busy serving our early members.
01:00:11I didn't have time to build one.
01:00:13So after six months, I was like, this is getting ridiculous.
01:00:15I should probably build a page that explains what the community is.
01:00:19But it wasn't necessary.
01:00:20So I don't think people should get tripped up by that.
01:00:22Really, this is what your page should do.
01:00:24So a landing page is just a page with one purpose.
01:00:27In this case, it's to showcase your community and let people sign up for it.
01:00:30It should clarify who your community is for.
01:00:32And Chris said before, creative entrepreneurs is who the future is for.
01:00:37So let people identify with that.
01:00:39It should explain why it's actually valuable.
01:00:41It should show what happens inside the community.
01:00:44Of course, allow people to sign up with a CTA or call to action.
01:00:49Address any questions or common objections that people may have.
01:00:52And it should, of course, present you and your community
01:00:55as credible and trustworthy.
01:00:56And this is a typical kind of structure that I recommend, because, again,
01:00:59people get really bogged down and confused if they just see like a blank canvas.
01:01:03They're like, what do I put in this page?
01:01:04Number one is qualification.
01:01:06So put out the top like, you know, this is a community for these types of people.
01:01:09Then value, you know, you're hitting them with that value proposition.
01:01:14And this is where people read it and think, do I believe
01:01:17this is actually going to help me and be valuable?
01:01:19You can then get in the weeds a bit more and talk about the specific features
01:01:22and benefits and what's actually included.
01:01:25And then you have your CTA, which is basically your offer.
01:01:28Here's the price. Like, go sign up.
01:01:30You can address objections and questions with a simple FAQ thing
01:01:34somewhere near the bottom.
01:01:35And I recommend closing with another CTA, because if you don't end on a button
01:01:41where they can sign up, they're going to have to scroll back up on the page
01:01:43to actually do that. So end on a call to action.
01:01:47And then throughout the page, you should kind of weave in case studies.
01:01:50And I got these all over my page.
01:01:52If you go to learn dot community, my favorite domain name, by the way,
01:01:55you know, we got videos and text and, you know, images of our members
01:02:01raving about the community because they are the ones that really sell it for you.
01:02:04So if you don't have testimonials at launch
01:02:08and you're trying to build an early stage landing page,
01:02:11maybe you could leverage industry people or past clients
01:02:16or people that kind of speak to your expertise around your community topic.
01:02:20Step 11, ongoing marketing and growth.
01:02:24I'm curious what you think of this, Chris.
01:02:26But I came up with this equation on the right.
01:02:28I was like, what really, you know, leads to a community that scales?
01:02:33And for me, I think it's how valuable the community is.
01:02:36Then the market size, as well as your positioning and how well
01:02:40you fit that market and then how good you are actually marketing the community.
01:02:44So your focus around this, your effort and your skill
01:02:46and all of this kind of combined leads to how big the community can get.
01:02:50Interesting formula.
01:02:51I think in concept, a little bit harder to to actually do as a formula.
01:02:56But I think it's they're good general areas
01:02:59for you to focus on so that you you know, this is going to work.
01:03:02And the reason I broke it down like this, as I say on the left here,
01:03:05people typically focus on the first part, but that's very rarely the issue.
01:03:09So they're like, I need to make my community more valuable.
01:03:12I need to stuff more things in there.
01:03:15And actually, that isn't the weakest part is normally that they're doing
01:03:17hardly any marketing or maybe they didn't validate properly
01:03:21and they don't have kind of product market fit.
01:03:23I was chatting with the.
01:03:26The CEO of one of these learning management systems,
01:03:31and I asked him of the people who are very successful using your platform.
01:03:36What is the commonality of all of them?
01:03:39He paused and he said, you know, it's actually they focus on creating
01:03:43a product that people can have money to buy.
01:03:46They have an ability to buy.
01:03:48So he said that to me. I'm like, shoot.
01:03:50I think this is our problem.
01:03:54We teach people.
01:03:56Oftentimes creatives in a financial distress state. Yep.
01:04:01So we're we're trying to help the poor, basically, right? Yeah.
01:04:04And the poor don't have an ability to buy in.
01:04:07So it's one of our biggest challenges.
01:04:09Like we're trying to sell things to people
01:04:11who have an unhealthy relationship with money.
01:04:13They don't have enough of it.
01:04:15And when they make it, they want to hoard it.
01:04:17They don't believe in investing in themselves.
01:04:19That's a fairly typical creative person.
01:04:21So as he was sharing with me, one of the courses that did really well,
01:04:24they did like a million dollar launch in a week.
01:04:27He said it was a lady who used to trade on Wall Street
01:04:31and she was teaching like investment banking or something like that.
01:04:36So, of course, anybody who has money,
01:04:39who wants to learn investment banking can afford to pay for whatever course it is.
01:04:43Yeah. And there's another person who launched a course
01:04:46on how to get a job at Facebook or Google.
01:04:50So, of course, then you kind of know that people in Silicon Valley
01:04:53make ridiculous amounts of money.
01:04:54It's going to be a six figure salary with options and perks
01:04:57so they can invest a few grand into nailing the interview and getting that job.
01:05:02So it's one of these things.
01:05:03So if we're looking at the ability to grow a successful and thriving community,
01:05:08I look at maybe similar ideas.
01:05:10But number one, does the market feel this problem
01:05:13deeply as a pain that they would like to make go away?
01:05:15So if your community doesn't solve that.
01:05:19That you have a design problem.
01:05:21Number two, do you have an ability to buy so they feel the pain,
01:05:25but they cannot buy the solution?
01:05:27That's probably you got to go back to the drawing board.
01:05:30And number three, do you have the ability to deliver?
01:05:33So if you can bring people in who have a problem,
01:05:36who can afford to buy and you can deliver the solution,
01:05:39what will happen organically is they're going to tell more people.
01:05:42And so you're going to bring in more people with the same problem
01:05:45and you could solve this over and over again.
01:05:47Your community should grow.
01:05:48It's such an interesting point.
01:05:50I cover something similar in my course
01:05:53where I audit myself as a member over the years,
01:05:57because I've been an exceptional member in many communities where,
01:06:01you know, I've been given free membership because I contributed so much
01:06:04or promoted in the community
01:06:06or, you know, one of the biggest contributors and so on.
01:06:09I believe in being a good member.
01:06:11I've also been a member in several communities where I am like a ghost, right?
01:06:15I'm completely inactive.
01:06:17I cancel eventually and I bring no value.
01:06:20And I tracked my behavior over the years and what was going on in my life.
01:06:24And I had varying degrees of budget.
01:06:27I had varying degrees of time.
01:06:30Like I've been in some communities where I think this is an incredible community.
01:06:34I got zero time.
01:06:35I'm running my business.
01:06:36I'm enjoying my side hustle.
01:06:38I've got a family.
01:06:39I don't have time to behave like when I was 16 years old
01:06:43and I lived and breathed the community.
01:06:45And I think what it goes to show is,
01:06:48you know, yes, it's definitely who you're targeting and the market you're serving.
01:06:53But often kind of to your point, Chris, the issue lies
01:06:56with the member and their situation rather than your offering.
01:06:59So let's look at some key marketing channels.
01:07:02This is not an exhaustive list,
01:07:03but these are typically the ones that I pay attention to.
01:07:05You've got an audience.
01:07:07Maybe you've built an audience with a newsletter or a YouTube channel
01:07:11and Instagram, whatever it may be.
01:07:13Maybe you've got a network as well.
01:07:14This could be a network of connections on LinkedIn and in real life network.
01:07:18Maybe you've got a network of past clients that are paid to work with you.
01:07:21Distribution.
01:07:23This is getting in front of other people's audiences.
01:07:25So it could be, well, what I'm doing right now, I'm very meta, right, Chris?
01:07:29But I'm trying to bring your audience as much value as I can possibly muster.
01:07:33And I'm getting in front of them.
01:07:35And I've been on your show two times before.
01:07:37To this day, we get members that join our community.
01:07:41And there's a little field being like, where did you discover us?
01:07:43And they're like, I saw you on the future and like what you have to say.
01:07:45So I signed up like distribution is very powerful paid ads.
01:07:50My least favorite, if I'm being honest,
01:07:52particularly when it comes to community, because we're not selling digital products here.
01:07:56We're selling an experience where people need to be very invested.
01:08:00And I like to think it helps if they have a warm relationship with you.
01:08:03So I don't really like going in cold with something like ads and member referrals.
01:08:09This is often overlooked.
01:08:10People have members loving their community.
01:08:12They never incentivize or ask them to tell their friends.
01:08:14And I've done this with a few clients that I've worked with
01:08:17where we've ramped up that channel and it's exponentially helped them to grow.
01:08:21So that, again, can be very powerful.
01:08:23And my distribution hero, Chris, it's you.
01:08:26I think this is a screen grab from our last conversation.
01:08:32But truly, I've I've referenced you a lot when I've talked about this, because
01:08:36whenever we've had a conversation like this, typically you will say, oh, yeah,
01:08:42I got, you know, four more podcasts that I'm doing later on other people's shows.
01:08:47And I see your name popping up everywhere.
01:08:50And even people that don't have huge audiences,
01:08:52you're still like getting in front of that audience and bringing value relentlessly.
01:08:56Like, I don't know anyone else who does this so consistently day in, day out.
01:08:59And you have a huge audience.
01:09:02So it would be really easy for you to get apathetic and just kind of
01:09:05put stuff out to your own audience. And that's it.
01:09:07But you're constantly and intentionally getting in front of new audiences.
01:09:12And so when people aren't doing this, I'm like, hold on.
01:09:16You have zero audience and you're not bothering to do this.
01:09:18Chris has a huge audience and he's still prioritizing that.
01:09:22So, yeah, I look up to you with this truly.
01:09:24This is a real look at some of our earlier growth.
01:09:27I need to do a more up to date version of this graph.
01:09:30But again, I'm caveating.
01:09:31You know, this is a hobby for me, this community.
01:09:34This is like a passion project. So this is not my main business.
01:09:37So these are not enormous numbers, but you know,
01:09:39they're still pretty cool for a profitable hobby.
01:09:43So I just want to prove that marketing really matters,
01:09:47because when I initially launched, I was doing some marketing efforts.
01:09:51And you can see there's this kind of stepping stone thing going on
01:09:55because we get new members shut down for a month and not let people in.
01:09:58And then two months later, open up and let people in.
01:10:00And we were growing pretty nicely.
01:10:03Then you can see the line goes incredibly flat.
01:10:06We had to basically make the community open.
01:10:08People could sign up any time. No more launches, no more cohorts,
01:10:11no more marketing, because I was dealing with a newborn and it was a lot.
01:10:15I'm not going to lie.
01:10:16So I went into maintenance mode.
01:10:18I'm basically like the only energy I have remaining in my day
01:10:22after everything else in my life is to serve the members we have.
01:10:25I don't have time to get new members. So it's super flat.
01:10:28And then things started to pick up a little bit.
01:10:30And then not too long ago, we launched our course inside the community.
01:10:35And this brought a whole bunch of new people in.
01:10:37And now the community is kind of just starting to grow a little bit.
01:10:40I'm very happy with this kind of like taking along nice intentional growth.
01:10:45But as kind of almost embarrassing as it is to show
01:10:49some of the flatness of this graph, because this is not like,
01:10:52oh, I exploded to six figures in six months.
01:10:54I hope it's more realistic for people.
01:10:56And it also shows that marketing really works.
01:10:59It's like when I stop marketing, I stop growing.
01:11:01When I market more heavily, the growth follows
01:11:04and the proof's in the pudding, I think.
01:11:07Step 12, community onboarding.
01:11:09So this is how your your new members may be feeling after they join.
01:11:13Did I make the right decision signing up?
01:11:15Is this actually my kind of place?
01:11:16Are these my kind of people? Is this actually worth my time?
01:11:19Will this community be important to me?
01:11:22What do I do next?
01:11:24How do I use this community?
01:11:26It's very common to have these thoughts.
01:11:27Onboarding is designed to answer these questions.
01:11:30And I actually really love I connected with David Spinks,
01:11:34who's, you know, like an OG in the community world.
01:11:37We've had some really good conversations.
01:11:40And in his book, The Business of Belonging, he says onboarding
01:11:45is what we want new members to feel, to know and to do.
01:11:49And I think that's such a succinct, beautiful way of putting it.
01:11:52So feel that that's kind of back to the brand stuff we touched on.
01:11:56Like, how do you want them to actually feel when they sign up
01:11:59like warm and fuzzy or like super laser focused and motivated?
01:12:03Like, how do you want them to feel?
01:12:05No. What should they know?
01:12:06Like, they should know how to actually use things or maybe what to do next
01:12:10or what to expect from the community and do.
01:12:14What do you want them to do as their first step?
01:12:17Do you want them to introduce themselves
01:12:19or get help with their pressing problem or whatever it may be?
01:12:22But again, I love this framing.
01:12:24So shout out to David for this.
01:12:26There's a term in the world of community called activation.
01:12:29It's basically the sooner you can activate a community member
01:12:33to take some level of action, the better, because it's the people
01:12:36that never activate, that become passive and then inactive and then churn.
01:12:40And if you don't get people to activate generally quite early,
01:12:43certainly within their first week,
01:12:45there's a much higher likelihood you're going to lose them.
01:12:48So my rule is within 24 hours of them joining,
01:12:51how do I wow them as much as possible?
01:12:53Because often you join a community and that initial day experience
01:12:58is you deciding if it's going to be worth it or not.
01:13:00So how do you blow away new members with value in their first day?
01:13:05You could solve a problem that you saw in the application form.
01:13:08You could send them a really warm personal message, provide a resource
01:13:12that's perfect for their needs right now,
01:13:14or maybe make a valuable connection or introduction.
01:13:16So they're making friends on day one, but do something.
01:13:19Don't just dump them in there and hope that they kind of find their feet.
01:13:22Yeah, I have a suggestion for you. Can you go back to that slide?
01:13:24Yes. I've been watching your presentation here.
01:13:26Might I humbly suggest that you turn all these key ideas
01:13:31into bite sized rhyming,
01:13:34alliterative statements to kind of own and brand this whole thing.
01:13:38So you say first 24 hours. Wow.
01:13:40But I was trying to figure out like what rhymes with wow.
01:13:42I couldn't couldn't figure it out.
01:13:45But if you say just in quick win, then you could brand this whole thing.
01:13:49Does that make sense, Tom?
01:13:51I was thinking about this recently, and I'll be very honest.
01:13:53I haven't had time to get around to this.
01:13:55I'm such a believer in this because then you start owning concepts, right?
01:13:58So I know you chatted with Daniel Priestly.
01:14:01He talks about key person of influence. He talks about oversubscribed.
01:14:05These are not new concepts, but you get IP in the space
01:14:08by framing them in a compelling way.
01:14:11So, yeah, I completely agree.
01:14:12It's on my to do list, and I appreciate the suggestion.
01:14:15Yeah. If you go back in and look at all the key points about community
01:14:19and you come up with your 27 phrases, it's like Tom Ross's
01:14:2327 phrases of community like Robert Green's laws of power.
01:14:28Well, I do dream of writing a physical book on this one day.
01:14:31So there you go.
01:14:33I'm going to get my hip hop hat on and get some rhymes kicking off.
01:14:37And then and then you can make stickers.
01:14:38You can do merch and swag and all that kind of stuff.
01:14:41All right. We are getting we're getting near the end.
01:14:43Everyone who's with us still right now. I appreciate it.
01:14:46I get I get a bit carried away.
01:14:49Congratulations, everybody.
01:14:50You made it to step 13.
01:14:52You're go ahead and reward yourself by going
01:14:54hitting the like and subscribe button right now.
01:14:57Leave us a comment.
01:14:58Let us know what community you're planning on launching,
01:15:01given the information you're getting right now.
01:15:03OK, back to the show.
01:15:04I told you I want to make it like a free course, essentially.
01:15:07Step 13, gathering member data.
01:15:09It sounds kind of onerous, right?
01:15:10And and weird in like a Facebook way.
01:15:13And also, when people hear data, they get scared, right?
01:15:16It's like, OK, that sounds very complicated.
01:15:19Really, I think a better way of framing it is insights,
01:15:22because the more you know about your members, the better you're going
01:15:25to understand their needs and the better you're going to be able to serve them.
01:15:28It's impossible.
01:15:31In fact, I'm trying to think of a rhyme right now.
01:15:34Don't be a hater, gather member data.
01:15:36There you go. That sucks.
01:15:39Yeah, good try. Good try.
01:15:41So, you know, really, when it comes to member data, you should be an instigator.
01:15:46How's that round two?
01:15:48I'll go all night.
01:15:50So it is impossible to remember everything about your members
01:15:54and not having these insights means flying blind.
01:15:56So I didn't actually do this well enough when I launched Learn Community.
01:16:00And I'd be talking to a member and be like, wait,
01:16:03what does that community do again or like, what did they need help with?
01:16:06And I'd store it all in my brain and it was it was terrible.
01:16:09When you actually track this stuff and record it,
01:16:12it becomes really key for community management and handling member connections.
01:16:17It also informs you what marketing channels are working,
01:16:21because one of the data points I mentioned before is when someone joins,
01:16:24you should ask them, where did you discover this community?
01:16:26It's gold because now every time a member joins,
01:16:29I can see what marketing channels are working.
01:16:32And if I do some stuff and no members ever cite that, I'm like, cool.
01:16:35I won't do that again.
01:16:36It's a waste of time. I double down on the ones that are working.
01:16:38I haven't got time to kind of go through my whole process for this,
01:16:43but I've gone really deep on this, Chris.
01:16:45Like we now have a set of milestones that people fill out.
01:16:48So someone asks a question like, how do I do community challenges?
01:16:52I can filter by our members and be like, here's eight members
01:16:55that crushed community challenges and they can share what works.
01:16:58Step 14, drive member engagement.
01:17:00Everyone realizes when they do community engagement, it's freaking hard.
01:17:05And it really is even the best communities wish for more.
01:17:08It's very, very difficult.
01:17:10These are the three areas that I think impact engagement the most.
01:17:13You have the value and offering of your community.
01:17:15If that's really great, that's going to help.
01:17:18We talked before, Chris, about you might have a great offering,
01:17:21but if you got the wrong people in there, then engagement is going to be poor.
01:17:24So the number of members, obviously a degree of like critical mass supplies
01:17:28and also the quality and relevance of those members matters too.
01:17:32And then the big one is community experience.
01:17:34So what are you actually doing with those members once they're inside?
01:17:37And again, I've got a hugely in-depth module in my course about engagement,
01:17:40but I want to give you a couple of my favorite strategies
01:17:43that you can take away today.
01:17:44So what most community builders do is they sit back and hope members engage
01:17:48and they typically won't or they start endlessly posting to fill the silence.
01:17:54And this has the opposite effect because you're basically hogging the mic
01:17:57and giving no space for your members to converse.
01:17:59And this is so common.
01:18:01People get really insecure. They're like, it's a ghost town.
01:18:03I better start like posting threads or answering my own questions
01:18:06and fill that void.
01:18:08That is not the right way to go about it.
01:18:10So what actually does work is being a facilitator.
01:18:14We've touched on this throughout this chat.
01:18:16You need to be the driver and the organizer of those early conversations.
01:18:20My favorite technique is private to public.
01:18:22And what this means is, Chris, imagine you're a member in my community
01:18:26and you're not posting, which is very common behavior, right?
01:18:29It's not priority. You haven't got around to it.
01:18:31You don't know how to frame your question.
01:18:33You feel insecure or whatever it may be.
01:18:35I reach out to you privately and I say, hey, Chris, how's it going?
01:18:38And you may reply and you're like, I'm good.
01:18:41Like, you know, business is tough at the minute and I'll have a conversation.
01:18:44I'm like, oh, why is it tough? What's going on?
01:18:46And maybe you open up and you're like,
01:18:48we're struggling to grow right now because, you know,
01:18:51I feel a bit lost when it comes to marketing.
01:18:54And in that conversation, I pin down the specific issue you're having.
01:18:58And I say, you know what? I can help with that.
01:19:01But if you go post it publicly in the forum,
01:19:04I think our conversation and the help I give you will help other members
01:19:07and other members will chime in and give their perspectives
01:19:11and their help you too. Does that sound good?
01:19:13And 99% of the time they're like, yeah, that sounds amazing.
01:19:17So what I've done is I've gone to them instead of waiting for them to come to me.
01:19:22I've helped get them to clarity.
01:19:24And then I've pointed them to go do it publicly in the community.
01:19:27And the best part is all the other members seeing this wonderful discussion unfolding.
01:19:32It appears organic to them.
01:19:34They don't know I've been the puppet master behind the scenes making this happen.
01:19:37It just looks like great engagement happening naturally.
01:19:39That's a lot of work, Tom.
01:19:41Yeah, it is. I can see why you're good at this.
01:19:43And thing is, because this is a hobby.
01:19:47I do all of this stuff in 30 to 60 minutes a day.
01:19:51This is how community is scalable when you do it right.
01:19:54Because the whole ecosystem of a community
01:19:57is that people are not going to be hounding you every single day, day in, day out.
01:20:00Majority are going to be passive, which is fine.
01:20:03They might just enjoy consuming resources or watching other conversations.
01:20:06And the active people, they're going to get some help and go and do the work.
01:20:10They're not going to hound you again an hour later, typically.
01:20:13So for me, I can I can drop in respond to every single question.
01:20:18Lead personal Loom responses, give someone a dedicated five minute video answer.
01:20:22Do that several times a day.
01:20:24Make a few connections, have some DMs and drive
01:20:28facilitating the whole ecosystem in less than one hour.
01:20:31And it's super fulfilling.
01:20:33You can also make one on one member introductions.
01:20:35You can personally invite people to events.
01:20:38And one of my favorite things is you can tag members.
01:20:40So here's the exact workflow, right?
01:20:43A member posts.
01:20:44I'll give my best response.
01:20:46And then after that, I will use the data
01:20:48I talked about to find other members who might be able to help.
01:20:50So in this example, Laura posted asking about challenges.
01:20:54And I was like, hmm, I know Joy's done challenges.
01:20:57I'll tag her up.
01:20:59Joy then jumps in because of that prompt, which she wouldn't have done without it.
01:21:03Leaves an incredible video breaking down her exact approach.
01:21:06And suddenly members are helping members.
01:21:08And I just had to facilitate that with a little light nudge.
01:21:11So we're nearly there, Chris.
01:21:13That is that's basically my framework for how people can think about
01:21:16building community.
01:21:18And I want to end by talking about objections,
01:21:20because invariably people might have some.
01:21:22Number one, I don't have an audience, so I can't build community.
01:21:25With learn community, even though I started with an audience,
01:21:2880 percent of our members come from places other than my own audience
01:21:33talks like what I'm doing right now, for example.
01:21:36So if you don't have an audience, lean on your network and lean into distribution.
01:21:40There are other channels than audience are delay launching my community
01:21:43until I release a ton of content and build an audience.
01:21:46Again, you don't need one.
01:21:48An audience building, as you know, Chris, takes a long time.
01:21:50It's definitely a smart strategy.
01:21:52But a lack of audience shouldn't stop you launching your community.
01:21:54Just lean on the other areas that we touched on.
01:21:57I don't like marketing. Can't I just avoid it?
01:22:00Unfortunately, no, it is not build it and they will come.
01:22:02People are not going to magically just know about your community.
01:22:05So you know what sucks more than learning marketing failing,
01:22:09not being able to follow your dream or seeing zero traction.
01:22:12I've seen a lot of people that claim to hate marketing.
01:22:15And once it started working for them because they stuck at it,
01:22:18they didn't hate it so much.
01:22:19I think it can be intimidating to learn a new skill.
01:22:22But I hate seeing people with great ideas for communities
01:22:25just never bring them to life because of this blocker.
01:22:27It only worked for you, Tom, because you're already established.
01:22:30Again, my existing audience and network helped. I won't lie.
01:22:33But I managed my expectations to be much smaller than some established names.
01:22:38So, Chris, my community as a side hustle
01:22:41with my level of audience earns way less than your community.
01:22:46And I'm just fine with that because that makes sense.
01:22:48So I advise people make your goals realistic.
01:22:53My community is bigger than some peoples and smaller than other peoples.
01:22:56If you're just getting started, you know, I've helped members launch a community
01:23:00with eight members and they get a bit of extra money in their pocket.
01:23:03And most of all, they serve those people and care about them and help them.
01:23:07And that's a wonderful thing.
01:23:09So start at whatever point, you know, it's relative to where you're at.
01:23:13I appeared on a podcast and it didn't work.
01:23:15I've definitely felt this before.
01:23:17So it's unrealistic to think everything will work.
01:23:20I listened to Noah Kagan's new book the other day,
01:23:24and I think he said like 80 to 90 percent of his marketing experiments fail.
01:23:27That is just marketing.
01:23:29It's trial and error and it's a lot of failure.
01:23:31And I definitely found this.
01:23:33I've tried tons that didn't work.
01:23:35And I basically found the ones that do and got data.
01:23:39Remember on which ones work and I do more of them.
01:23:41I'm marketing my community, but not seeing great results.
01:23:44Either your community isn't properly validated or positioned
01:23:46or you're marketing, but not enough or not well enough.
01:23:48Typically, it's the latter.
01:23:50People are very kind of sporadic with their marketing.
01:23:53And when I've interviewed members who really crushed it with their launches,
01:23:56people are very surprised at the level of effort and commitment
01:23:59they put into their marketing campaigns.
01:24:01So generally, you need to be doing more marketing than than what feels natural.
01:24:05Nobody seems to care about my community.
01:24:07Again, this is why we validate.
01:24:09So this should actually become evident at the validation phase,
01:24:12not at the launch or marketing phase.
01:24:14Until you have something that you're sure people actually really want.
01:24:16Don't jump into building and marketing it.
01:24:18And that is it.
01:24:19I'm going to take a breath and just say, if you do need help with next steps
01:24:24at Learn Community, you can find the entire course that these highlights
01:24:29are taken from.
01:24:30Plus, join our community of 150 like minded community builders.
01:24:34You also get unlimited help and questions from me.
01:24:36One on one calls for community critiques, you name it.
01:24:39I really like to try and over deliver for people.
01:24:41And I would love to be your personal guide when it comes to community.
01:24:44If you don't have any budget, then I actually featured Chris
01:24:48in my 175 page free book at communitymanual.com,
01:24:52which breaks down tons more community strategies,
01:24:55as well as an analysis of how the future and Chris build community so well.
01:24:59And finally, thank you.
01:25:01Thank you, Chris, for having me on.
01:25:02Thank you, everyone, for your time and attention.
01:25:04I didn't realize this would be such a long
01:25:07workshop, but I hope it's been helpful.
01:25:09And I really, really want you to feel inspired to go create your dream community.
01:25:13We'll include the links that Tom mentioned in the show notes below.
01:25:16Make sure you click on those
01:25:17if you want the additional resources that he's talking about.
01:25:19Or if you're curious about his community and want to look at his sales page,
01:25:22make sure you check it out.
01:25:32you