Transcript

00:00:00I saw you react to a video, if I tell you to leave me alone and you leave me alone, you're
00:00:04legit dead to me.
00:00:05Right.
00:00:06What do you think of that?
00:00:09In some ways it depends, but in general, I don't think that's a very fun game.
00:00:15I don't like playing that game where you have to guess at what people mean.
00:00:20It's like don't talk to me means talk to me.
00:00:23I don't know about you.
00:00:24I'm not good at decoding those kinds of signals personally.
00:00:29How are you supposed to know?
00:00:31So yeah, I think being straightforward weirdly has to be, it's a skill that can be developed
00:00:38and younger people are less likely to have that skill.
00:00:41I remember when I was younger in college, especially, I didn't know how to communicate how I was
00:00:49really feeling to people.
00:00:50And I also didn't know if it was safe to do that.
00:00:52And so you use this kind of like angle to get there and they go, you know, I'm looking sad
00:00:58today.
00:00:59I want to make sure I want somebody to notice that I'm looking sad today.
00:01:02And they go, oh, you look sad today.
00:01:03Are you sad?
00:01:04And I go, no.
00:01:05Why do you ask?
00:01:06Because I want them to ask more.
00:01:10I want them to dig deeper, you know.
00:01:12So I was so close, but not quite there.
00:01:15And that is odd to me that we would need to teach people to be straightforward.
00:01:19And yet here we are.
00:01:20Because there's more effort needed to obfuscate the thing that we actually want.
00:01:24Right.
00:01:25It's like, what are you doing?
00:01:26Why are you playing that game?
00:01:28And I think in many ways, it's self protective.
00:01:30It's kind of like flirting.
00:01:31But with your emotions, like making them prove that they care about me enough to dig deeper.
00:01:37And yet I don't it doesn't require me to put myself out there.
00:01:40I don't have to.
00:01:41It is hard to say.
00:01:42Like if I say to you, hey, Chris, I'm feeling sad today.
00:01:43I don't know.
00:01:44Like this interview, I don't know how it's going to go.
00:01:48Can you imagine if I had started that way?
00:01:50You've been like, oh, okay.
00:01:52You know that.
00:01:53So you have to pick your spots.
00:01:55But at the same time, if you are in fact feeling sad, which I'm not, by the way, but this is
00:02:00great.
00:02:01But there is a there's a way to reveal that that's more socially appropriate.
00:02:06And I think that's where the skill is really learnable.
00:02:09Why do women say things like leave me alone, but actually mean the opposite?
00:02:17How should I know?
00:02:18No.
00:02:19I, so I think it can be for a variety of reasons.
00:02:23We could look at it through a cultural lens.
00:02:26And I think culturally, women have been more penalized for sharing openly than men have
00:02:32historically, I think today, you know, it could go either way, maybe men are even being
00:02:37penalized more.
00:02:38But I think that's one lens of explanation that people sometimes use is that women have
00:02:42had to be very careful in how they communicate.
00:02:45And that has been transmitted across time to women today, even if it's not as true as it
00:02:49used to be.
00:02:50So okay, so that's that's maybe one lens.
00:02:53Another is that truly social media communication teaches them to do it.
00:02:57And so that is it's like, hey, ladies, this is what you have to do.
00:03:01Never tell a guy, X instead, do ABC.
00:03:07And other times, it can just be learning, you know, you learn over time, like when you're
00:03:12in fifth grade, that if you pretend to be sad around a boy, he'll pay extra attention to
00:03:18you.
00:03:20And then you never learn a better skill, well, you're still doing that when you're 30.
00:03:24And now people are dealing with it.
00:03:26You know, on when you're trying to connect with them on hinge or whatever.
00:03:33Joe Hudson, friend of mine, his daughter was seven years old crying in the bathtub.
00:03:38And she'd been crying in there quite regularly over the last couple of weeks.
00:03:42And he went in and the way that she was crying sounded kind of angry.
00:03:46At the same time, he said, hey, you know, when you're crying, how often are you sad and how
00:03:52often you pissed off?
00:03:55Pissed off.
00:03:56So okay, well, why, why are you crying if you're if you're angry?
00:03:59So when I'm angry, everyone runs away.
00:04:02But when I cry, my sister comes and gives me a hug.
00:04:06Exactly.
00:04:07So there is the real, it's not just the message.
00:04:10It's the way that that's received.
00:04:12And yeah, I think it's a difficult one.
00:04:17Putting us, learning direct communication or not speaking in shadow sentences, right?
00:04:22Not pointing in the direction of the thing that you mean, but saying it in a way where
00:04:28you don't plant what you want so that it can't be denied so that you can't ever be invalidated.
00:04:34But you also deny the person the opportunity of actually giving you what it is that you
00:04:38want.
00:04:39So it's kind of the same as telling somebody to hit the bullseye on a dartboard, but they've
00:04:42got to have their eyes closed, or you're moving it like this all the time.
00:04:48Okay, I guess passive aggression, shadow sentences stuff is similar to passive aggression.
00:04:54What's the role of passive aggression in relationships, you know, why it comes about, what its role
00:04:59is?
00:05:00Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:01So sometimes researchers will call it indirect aggression as well.
00:05:04You know, there's multiple names, depending on which angle in the literature you're taking.
00:05:10And that too is one that has been debated and kind of misunderstood over time.
00:05:14It used to be thought that men were aggressive, aggressive, and then women were passive aggressive
00:05:19or indirectly aggressive.
00:05:21And what more recent kind of recent research has shown is that men are just more aggressive
00:05:25across the board.
00:05:29Including indirectly?
00:05:30Yes.
00:05:31Yeah, yeah.
00:05:32So there are maybe equal levels of women with indirect, but then when you add or maybe even
00:05:37a little less, but then when you add aggression, aggression, it's like, no guys are in fact,
00:05:41more aggressive.
00:05:42But women, I think are more, I wouldn't say it's rewarded, it's more socially appropriate
00:05:49for women to be indirectly aggressive, typically, and it's also less dangerous.
00:05:54So think about it this way.
00:05:56If you say to a buddy, you know, you're fighting, and you take a swing at him, you're probably
00:06:01going to hold your own at worst.
00:06:04You personally, I mean, you're a big guy, you know, you're gonna hold your own at worst.
00:06:08If a woman takes a swing at her guy friend in anger, that's very dangerous.
00:06:15And so as a result, women tend to use passive aggression or indirect aggression a bit more
00:06:20simply because it's a safer outlet.
00:06:23And I think, you know, this is not my area of specialization, but I think there's some
00:06:28evidence that shows that when women are dealing with other women, they're a lot more likely
00:06:34to be aggressive, aggressive than if they were dealing with men.
00:06:40Because the potential physical repercussion coming back to them, given that they're more
00:06:43fragile and more valuable evolutionarily, they're less likely to have lethal force be applied
00:06:49because the imbalance just isn't there.
00:06:51Correct.
00:06:52I'd have to go back and check on them.
00:06:53I'm almost positive I've read that.
00:06:55Makes total sense.
00:06:56The female intrasexual competition is the least popular on the internet, most fascinating.
00:07:05It's got the biggest disparity between how much you're allowed to talk about it, how little
00:07:09you're allowed to talk about it and how fascinating it is to study.
00:07:12It is fucking endlessly interesting.
00:07:17Joyce Benenson's, the Candace Blake's, the Corey Clark's, the fucking Christina Gerantes,
00:07:22the Tracy Viancoise with Mean Girls, like all of this stuff is so fucking sick.
00:07:26I remember Rob Henderson taught me this story, maybe it was boss, a woman had been kidnapped
00:07:35by an Amazonian tribe while she was on a tour.
00:07:38And she'd been taken into the local tribe after she'd been taken from her touring group.
00:07:46And when she was there, a little boy had come up and given her a little parcel, given her
00:07:53a parcel that had some food in it and no, sorry, one of the women had come up, one of
00:07:58the boys had come up, given her a parcel that had some food in it and it was, you can eat
00:08:01this and she smelled it and it sort of smelled bad.
00:08:04So she didn't want to, and then she went and sort of laid it down somewhere and didn't bother
00:08:09eating it.
00:08:10And then a little bit later in the day, one of the kids fell super ill.
00:08:16And when asked, what's happened?
00:08:18Why are you ill, she said, oh, that woman put this thing down near me and I went over
00:08:24and ate it.
00:08:26And they chased her through the jungle.
00:08:28You've just tried to poison one of these children.
00:08:30What it turned out had happened was that some of the other women had given the parcel to
00:08:37a child to give to her, knowing that she would either eat it and get sick or put it down and
00:08:42then they could accuse her of it.
00:08:43And I'm like, do you understand just how stupid the male equivalent of that would be?
00:08:52Like if it was a guy that had come in and the guys didn't like him, they would have like
00:08:56man take rock, man throw rock at man.
00:09:01And there's this seven step inception thing, Christopher Nolan's designed it, but you know,
00:09:07it's got redundancies built in.
00:09:09If she doesn't do it, she'll give it to someone and then it'll hurt them.
00:09:12And then we can say that she, I'm like, oh, I am so glad that I'm not a woman.
00:09:17I'm endlessly glad that I'm not a woman for that reason.
00:09:19I could not navigate that situation at all.
00:09:22And I was shocked.
00:09:23So I made, I think I've made one or two posts on intersexual competition recently.
00:09:29And I thought people might find it to be mildly interesting.
00:09:32I find it to be very interesting, you know, and it's one of the things we studied in grad
00:09:36school a bit.
00:09:37And I made this post and I started taking shots from all over the place is like, what,
00:09:43you guys have a problem with this?
00:09:44What?
00:09:45I thought it was just as well-accepted principle.
00:09:47That's why I almost didn't post about it.
00:09:49I'm out of touch.
00:09:50It's so obvious.
00:09:51I don't know what people don't know.
00:09:52And apparently A, people don't know about this and B, when they find out, they get real mad.
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00:11:01Watch the full episode here.

Key Takeaway

Effective relationships require moving beyond 'shadow sentences' and indirect aggression toward the learned skill of straightforward communication.

Highlights

The tendency to use indirect communication or "code" as a self-protective mechanism to test others' care.

Straightforwardness is an essential social skill that is often underdeveloped in younger generations.

Cultural and historical factors that have traditionally influenced how women communicate emotional needs.

The role of social media in reinforcing indirect communication patterns through modern dating advice.

Gender differences in aggression, highlighting that men are more aggressive across all categories including indirect aggression.

The concept of female intrasexual competition and the complex social strategies involved in non-physical conflict.

Timeline

The Game of Indirect Communication

The speaker reacts to a video where a person claims that if they are left alone after asking to be left alone, the other person is 'dead' to them. This highlights a common game where people expect others to decode signals rather than taking words at face value. Dr. Butterfield explains that many people use this 'angle' to get others to notice their sadness without having to state it directly. This behavior is often rooted in a desire for others to 'dig deeper' and prove they care. However, this creates a frustrating dynamic where clear communication is sacrificed for emotional testing.

Directness as a Developable Skill

The discussion shifts to why it is necessary to teach adults to be straightforward when it actually takes more effort to obfuscate the truth. Dr. Butterfield suggests that younger people are less likely to have this skill because they view indirectness as a safety net. By not putting themselves 'out there' directly, they avoid the risk of immediate invalidation. The speaker notes that revealing emotions in a socially appropriate way is a skill that can be practiced and refined over time. Choosing the right spot to be vulnerable is key to navigating social hierarchies and personal relationships effectively.

Cultural Lenses and Learned Behaviors

The speakers explore why certain demographics, specifically women, might be more prone to using indirect communication like saying the opposite of what they mean. One explanation is cultural, suggesting women have historically been penalized more for open sharing than men. Another factor is the influence of social media, which often provides scripts that discourage directness in favor of strategic communication. Furthermore, these behaviors are often learned in childhood, such as a child realizing that pretending to be sad garners more attention than being angry. If a better skill isn't learned, these childhood survival strategies persist into adulthood and dating life.

The Mechanics of Shadow Sentences

An anecdote about a seven-year-old girl illustrates how children learn to swap emotions like anger for crying because crying elicits hugs while anger causes people to run away. This is the foundation for what the host calls 'shadow sentences,' where a person points toward a meaning without actually saying it. By refusing to 'plant' what they want, the individual ensures they cannot be denied, but they also prevent the other person from actually meeting their needs. This is compared to asking someone to hit a bullseye while they are blindfolded or while the target is constantly moving. Ultimately, this behavior is a form of passive aggression that sabotages genuine connection.

Indirect Aggression and Gender Dynamics

The conversation moves into the academic study of passive or 'indirect' aggression. While older literature suggested women were more indirectly aggressive, newer research indicates that men are actually more aggressive across all categories, including indirect ones. However, indirect aggression is often more socially acceptable and safer for women to use because physical confrontation carries higher risks of lethal force or injury. Evolutionarily, women are described as more 'fragile and valuable,' making them less likely to engage in direct physical combat. This leads to the development of highly sophisticated and complex non-physical competitive strategies.

Female Intrasexual Competition

The final section delves into the 'fucking endlessly interesting' world of female intrasexual competition, citing various researchers like Joyce Benenson and Tracy Vaillancourt. The host shares a story about an Amazonian tribe to illustrate the high-level 'inception' style strategies women may use to discredit rivals without using physical force. These tactics include social manipulation and setting up scenarios where a rival appears guilty of a transgression. Dr. Butterfield notes that despite how well-documented these principles are in academia, the general public often reacts with anger or surprise when they are discussed. The video concludes with a brief sponsorship message for Shopify and a call to watch the full episode.

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