스크립트
00:00:00Why is it in your late 40s and early 50s, maybe before,
00:00:03that you find a pull to religion
00:00:04when you didn't have one before?
00:00:06That might seem weird because we're talking about faith here,
00:00:10which is a belief in things unseen.
00:00:14The faith in things unseen that you had from a kid,
00:00:16they don't grow as you get older.
00:00:17You don't, like, you know, at 49 years old,
00:00:19you're like, you know, I do believe in Santa Claus.
00:00:21I think they're making a good case for the tooth fairy,
00:00:23said no 49-year-old ever who's of sound mind.
00:00:26I, myself, was raised in the evangelical Christian tradition
00:00:29I converted to Catholicism as a teenager,
00:00:32probably as an act of adolescent rebellion.
00:00:34My parents didn't like it at first,
00:00:36but they finally conceded that it was probably better than drugs.
00:00:39So there you go.
00:00:40This idea of religious exploration,
00:00:42this kind of pull that people often have
00:00:44toward faith or spirituality,
00:00:46maybe even to change what they thought of as faith.
00:00:50What's behind that?
00:00:51What's the psychology and even the neuroscience
00:00:53behind these urges, and what can you do about it?
00:00:56That's today's episode.
00:00:59Hi, everybody.
00:01:04Welcome to Office Hours.
00:01:05I'm Arthur Brooks.
00:01:07This is a show about love and happiness,
00:01:08how you can get more of it in your life
00:01:10and bring more of it to the lives of other people,
00:01:12and that's my mission,
00:01:13professionally and personally,
00:01:15to lift people up in bonds of happiness and love
00:01:16using science and ideas.
00:01:18I'm really honored that you're with me
00:01:19and grateful to you for that.
00:01:20Thank you for sticking with the show
00:01:21if you're a long-time viewer or listener,
00:01:24and thank you for joining us for the first time
00:01:26if this is indeed your first time.
00:01:28I hope you enjoy it.
00:01:28This is today a show about a question that I often get,
00:01:33and as the show goes on over the months,
00:01:36we're getting more and more and more questions,
00:01:37and when I see questions kind of piling up
00:01:39around a certain topic,
00:01:40well, that's when we'll schedule an episode
00:01:42around that particular question,
00:01:44and this is a question that I get from a lot of people
00:01:46who are not super young.
00:01:48They're proceeding in years.
00:01:50Not as old as me,
00:01:51but, you know, people in their 30s and 40s often say,
00:01:53you know, I've never been religious,
00:01:55but I'm feeling like I'm more open to it
00:01:58than I've been in the past,
00:01:59and I don't understand this.
00:02:00People who are on kind of a religious quest.
00:02:02This is related to a common question
00:02:04I do get from very young adults as well,
00:02:06which is, you know, I was raised in a faith,
00:02:08but I kind of wandered away,
00:02:09and I'd like to make my way back.
00:02:11This idea of religious exploration,
00:02:14this kind of pull that people often have
00:02:16toward faith or spirituality,
00:02:18maybe even to change what they thought of as faith.
00:02:22What's behind that?
00:02:23What's the psychology and even the neuroscience
00:02:25behind these urges,
00:02:26and what can you do about it?
00:02:28How can you live better as a result of it?
00:02:29Should you deny it?
00:02:30Should you lean into it?
00:02:31How do you do that?
00:02:33How can you navigate a change of faith
00:02:35or a surge of faith in your life?
00:02:38That's today's episode.
00:02:39Now, as always,
00:02:41please do feedback as much as you possibly can
00:02:43and are comfortable doing.
00:02:44Write to us at officehours at arthurbrooks.com.
00:02:47That's the email address for the program.
00:02:49You can also leave a comment.
00:02:50We read all the comments,
00:02:51even the negative ones.
00:02:52Those are really useful to us too.
00:02:54So thank you for giving us your thoughts,
00:02:56and do us a favor here.
00:02:58One of the things that we've noticed
00:02:59is that a lot of people listen to the show.
00:03:01It's getting more popular,
00:03:02but most people who listen or watch the show
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00:03:22So do us a favor here.
00:03:24Hit the like and subscribe buttons on that.
00:03:27You'll get it automatically,
00:03:29and more people will get it as well.
00:03:30Think of this as paying it forward
00:03:31to other people who are going to like this show
00:03:33who haven't seen it yet.
00:03:34As always, if you want more on this,
00:03:36on the things that we're doing,
00:03:37do subscribe to my free newsletter.
00:03:39It comes out every Friday morning.
00:03:40It starts off with, you know,
00:03:42updates and my stupid dad jokes,
00:03:45but it goes on to something of real substance.
00:03:47There are usually 300 or 400 words on a topic
00:03:49that I might or might not be covering here in the podcast.
00:03:52A way to end your week and go into the weekend, perhaps.
00:03:56A lot of people are subscribing to this now.
00:03:58We have more than a quarter million people
00:03:59who are getting this every single week
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00:04:09If you'd like to start thinking about these ideas
00:04:11in person and community,
00:04:12one place you might look at that
00:04:14is to see where we're doing retreats.
00:04:16We're actually doing in-person retreats as well.
00:04:18Sometimes I'm involved
00:04:19and members of my team are doing it
00:04:21and there are all different ways
00:04:22to interact with other people
00:04:23interested in these ideas
00:04:24of the science of love and happiness.
00:04:26For that, go to retreats.arthurbrooks.com.
00:04:29Right now, you're like Neo in the Matrix.
00:04:32You can keep scrolling,
00:04:33experiencing a simulation of life,
00:04:36or you can wake up to how your attention
00:04:38is being harvested for profit.
00:04:40It's happening to people
00:04:41all over the world right now.
00:04:43You don't want to be productized
00:04:45like this anymore, but it's hard.
00:04:48Tech addiction is so potent
00:04:49because it's been designed
00:04:50to tap into your dopamine system.
00:04:52Just like heroin, porn, gambling.
00:04:54You've got the cravings.
00:04:55You're addicted.
00:04:57You don't like it, and I don't either.
00:04:58But I can't just tell you to stop doing it.
00:05:00That's hard.
00:05:01If you want to break free from the system,
00:05:03you need an incentive.
00:05:04Here's one.
00:05:06Why don't you join a phone company
00:05:07that pays you not to use your phone?
00:05:10If you want to reduce brain rot,
00:05:11get Noble Mobile.
00:05:13It pays you to use less data.
00:05:15It gives you an incentive to unplug.
00:05:17Noble Mobile is the phone plan
00:05:18that finally aligns incentives
00:05:20with what's good for you.
00:05:22Use less data, earn money back.
00:05:24And when you do,
00:05:25you'll be living once again in real life,
00:05:27and you're going to like how it feels.
00:05:29Okay, now on to the main theme
00:05:31of today's program,
00:05:32which is how to find your faith,
00:05:34how to re-find your faith,
00:05:36how to deal with this weird surge
00:05:37in an interest in spirituality
00:05:39that you didn't quite recognize
00:05:40and might be disconcerting to you.
00:05:42That's what I want to talk about.
00:05:44Now, I was raised personally
00:05:46in a Christian family.
00:05:47Those of you who follow my work,
00:05:48you know that this is the case.
00:05:49I have actually missionaries
00:05:52on both sides of my family.
00:05:53My great-grandparents were missionaries
00:05:56in Africa.
00:05:57My grandparents on the other side
00:05:58were missionaries in the Navajo Nation
00:06:00and later were very involved
00:06:02in evangelical Christian education.
00:06:04I myself was raised
00:06:06in the evangelical Christian tradition.
00:06:08I converted to Catholicism as a teenager,
00:06:10probably as an act of adolescent rebellion.
00:06:12My parents didn't like it at first,
00:06:14but they finally conceded
00:06:15that it was probably better than drugs.
00:06:17So there you go.
00:06:18And as a result of that,
00:06:19you know, since the age of 16,
00:06:20I've been a Catholic.
00:06:22And it's very important to me.
00:06:24My wife Esther and I,
00:06:25we practice our faith every day.
00:06:27As a matter of fact,
00:06:28I go to Mass every day,
00:06:29which is one of the ways
00:06:30that I try to experience transcendence.
00:06:32The data are really clear.
00:06:34And you've heard me talk about
00:06:35in this program,
00:06:36and you'll hear me talk about more,
00:06:37that the idea of being able
00:06:38to zoom out on your life,
00:06:39whether it's spiritual or religious
00:06:40or just philosophical,
00:06:42is really great.
00:06:43And of course,
00:06:43my faith does that for me.
00:06:44Now, there's metaphysics behind it
00:06:46that are more important
00:06:46than just that.
00:06:48My faith is a commitment to me
00:06:50for other reasons
00:06:51than just the big benefits
00:06:52that it gives me.
00:06:53But the benefits are real,
00:06:54to be sure.
00:06:55And I really love my faith.
00:06:57That said,
00:06:58I also have a deep love
00:06:59and respect for other faiths
00:07:00and a real interest
00:07:01in other faiths around the world.
00:07:03And that's a lifelong interest for me.
00:07:05It started fundamentally
00:07:07when I was in high school,
00:07:09as a matter of fact,
00:07:09and I started studying
00:07:11North Indian classical music.
00:07:13I came upon an international music store,
00:07:19a record store in those days
00:07:20in the university district in Seattle.
00:07:22And I started buying albums
00:07:24of North Indian,
00:07:26Hindustani classical musicians
00:07:27like Ravi Shankar
00:07:28and Ali Akbar Khan
00:07:29and some of these great musicians.
00:07:31Later, when I was 18 years old,
00:07:33I took tabla lessons.
00:07:34That's North Indian classical drumming.
00:07:36And in the Indian tradition,
00:07:38Hindustani classical music
00:07:39has great religious significance,
00:07:40which led me to start reading more
00:07:42from the philosophers
00:07:43and the theologians
00:07:44and the great spiritual teachers
00:07:46from that part of the world.
00:07:47As a young adult,
00:07:48I came across a great book
00:07:49that influenced me greatly
00:07:50called Autobiography of a Yogi
00:07:53by Paramahansa Yogananda,
00:07:55who was a Bengali sage,
00:07:57a Bengali yogi.
00:07:58He was mostly responsible
00:08:00for introducing ideas of Hinduism
00:08:02to the West in the 1920s.
00:08:04And you might say to yourself,
00:08:05wait, it took till the 1920s.
00:08:08And the answer is yeah.
00:08:09I mean, Hinduism didn't penetrate
00:08:10out of India for a long time,
00:08:12especially into the United States.
00:08:14It's a relatively late entrant,
00:08:15despite the fact that Hinduism
00:08:17is 6,000 years old.
00:08:19It's a really ancient thing,
00:08:20but it took a long time
00:08:21to leave the Indian subcontinent
00:08:24in terms of the way
00:08:26that it would influence
00:08:27other people around the world.
00:08:28And so when Paramahansa Yogananda
00:08:30came to the United States
00:08:31in the 1920s,
00:08:32he wrote his autobiography,
00:08:34which was really an autobiography of faith.
00:08:36It wasn't just, you know,
00:08:37I was born here and did this and that.
00:08:38It talked about, you know,
00:08:39the essence of what Hinduism,
00:08:41deep Hinduism meant.
00:08:43And it enchanted a lot of Americans.
00:08:44It captivated their imagination.
00:08:46And I was one of those Americans,
00:08:48not from the 1920s, obviously.
00:08:49It was much later than that.
00:08:51But it was a really helpful book to me.
00:08:52It didn't shake my Christian faith.
00:08:54What it did was it deepened
00:08:56my understanding of, you know,
00:08:57ways to, for example, meditate.
00:09:00And meditating in the Catholic tradition
00:09:02is an ancient thing too.
00:09:04And it just, it helped me.
00:09:06And it's sort of cross-training,
00:09:08if you'll do, if you'll,
00:09:09if you'll, you'll forgive the metaphor.
00:09:12It's really good for you to cross-train
00:09:14if you're an athlete.
00:09:14And I felt that it was kind of
00:09:15religious cross-training for me.
00:09:18As the years went on
00:09:18and I got more interested
00:09:19and read more and more,
00:09:21not just by Yogananda,
00:09:22but by other Hindu sages,
00:09:24there was a particular concept
00:09:26that I got very interested in.
00:09:29And by the way,
00:09:29around the time that I was getting
00:09:31exposed to Indian thinking,
00:09:33I made my first trip to India.
00:09:34So it's not like I was just doing it,
00:09:36you know, from the comfort
00:09:38of my Seattle home.
00:09:39I went to India for the first time
00:09:41on tour as a musician
00:09:42when I was 19.
00:09:44And I had the weird mixed fortune
00:09:46of actually having a snafu in my travel
00:09:49that stranded me in Chennai,
00:09:51in Chennai, in Southern India,
00:09:52in the capital of Tamil Nadu,
00:09:55in the deep heart of the,
00:09:57probably the most spiritual part of India.
00:10:00I spent three days off the grid
00:10:01because all the telephone lines were down.
00:10:03This is in the early 1980s
00:10:05and just kind of wandering around Chennai
00:10:08and some of, and I was,
00:10:09I had a hotel room,
00:10:09a very cheap hotel room
00:10:10in a not so great part of Chennai,
00:10:13but it was a very interesting
00:10:14full experience for me.
00:10:16From there, I went to Calcutta
00:10:17and from there to Mumbai.
00:10:19And that experience really solidified
00:10:21my deep, deep interest and respect
00:10:23and fascination and love
00:10:25for what I consider to be
00:10:26the most interesting country in the world,
00:10:28which is India.
00:10:29I want a lot of interest.
00:10:30Look at the money.
00:10:31The rupees have, I think,
00:10:3222 alphabets on them
00:10:35from the different languages of India.
00:10:37It's a complex place,
00:10:39religiously as well as everything else.
00:10:41Well, as time went on,
00:10:42there was one particular concept,
00:10:44especially as I became,
00:10:45I left music and became
00:10:46a behavioral scientist.
00:10:47As a behavioral scientist,
00:10:48there was one concept in Hinduism
00:10:50I needed to understand better
00:10:52because I had heard,
00:10:53I had it on good authority
00:10:54from an Indian scientist
00:10:57that if you wanted to understand
00:10:59the changes in human behavior
00:11:00that proceed naturally
00:11:02in the course of life,
00:11:03you needed to understand
00:11:04the idea of ashramas.
00:11:07Now, ashramas,
00:11:08it's a concept,
00:11:09and that's a word from Sanskrit
00:11:11that means the sections of life.
00:11:15It really means the quarters
00:11:16of a well-balanced, perfect life.
00:11:19And the theory of the ashramas
00:11:21is that people proceed
00:11:22over the quarters of life,
00:11:24and if they understand it
00:11:25and they understand
00:11:26how they're naturally changing
00:11:27and where they need to go,
00:11:28their life will be much better
00:11:29and they'll be more spiritually adroit,
00:11:32physically healthier,
00:11:33happier as people,
00:11:34and bring more love into the world.
00:11:36I'm like, I want that.
00:11:37I want to understand that
00:11:39because it's a predictive theory
00:11:40of how people change,
00:11:41but it's a prescriptive theory
00:11:43on how people can change well
00:11:45if they understand it.
00:11:46So I asked everybody I knew,
00:11:48tell me about the ashramas.
00:11:49And I knew some people
00:11:51that were deeply versed
00:11:54in Hindu philosophy,
00:11:56Vedic philosophy,
00:11:57that would explain it to me,
00:11:58who were from India,
00:11:59but I wasn't getting
00:12:00as much as I needed.
00:12:02At one point,
00:12:02I decided I really needed
00:12:04to go there
00:12:05and find somebody,
00:12:08find a teacher
00:12:08who could teach me
00:12:09about this idea.
00:12:10So what this really was,
00:12:11was research
00:12:12for a behavioral scientist,
00:12:14but a behavioral scientist
00:12:14with a deep love
00:12:15and respect
00:12:16for Hindu religion
00:12:19and Indian culture
00:12:20and somebody deeply committed
00:12:21to my own religion.
00:12:23It's a weird amalgam
00:12:24of motives
00:12:25for why I was doing this,
00:12:27but I did in February of 2018.
00:12:29This was one of my annual trips.
00:12:31Now for a long time,
00:12:32for decades now,
00:12:33I've been going
00:12:34every year to India
00:12:35and this was one
00:12:36of my annual trips,
00:12:37but it was with a motive,
00:12:39a key motive
00:12:40of finding a teacher
00:12:41for me about the ashramas.
00:12:43So that was in February of 2018
00:12:45that I did that.
00:12:46I was staying in Kochi,
00:12:48which is in Kerala
00:12:49in southern India.
00:12:51Now actually,
00:12:51interestingly,
00:12:52Kerala is the most
00:12:53Christian region of India
00:12:55where 25% of Keralan Indians
00:12:58are Christians,
00:13:00about half of them Catholics.
00:13:02And I venerated
00:13:03the wrist bone
00:13:04in a Catholic ashram
00:13:07of St. Thomas the Apostle,
00:13:09doubting Thomas,
00:13:10as a matter of fact.
00:13:11Thomas is believed
00:13:12to have left the Holy Land
00:13:14after the death of Jesus
00:13:15and gone to India
00:13:16and evangelized
00:13:18and set up seven churches
00:13:20across southern India
00:13:21and then was martyred in Chennai.
00:13:23Now that's a pretty interesting point
00:13:25because that was in about
00:13:26the year 52,
00:13:27according to this belief.
00:13:29And if that's the case,
00:13:30that means that Indians
00:13:31were the receivers
00:13:33of early Christianity
00:13:34before any Europeans,
00:13:36before St. Paul
00:13:37actually made it
00:13:38to the Thessalonica,
00:13:39which is the first part of Europe
00:13:40that received the message.
00:13:42And when you go there
00:13:44and you meet Christians in India,
00:13:45they'll tell you that.
00:13:46You know,
00:13:46they speak in their churches,
00:13:48the Syriac,
00:13:49which is related to Aramaic,
00:13:52the language that Jesus
00:13:53actually spoke
00:13:54when he walked the earth.
00:13:56And it's their
00:13:57ancient liturgical language.
00:13:58And it's like,
00:13:58well, wow,
00:13:59I mean,
00:13:59they're getting the language
00:14:00effectively a dialect
00:14:01of what Jesus was speaking.
00:14:02It is pretty ancient.
00:14:03That's obvious.
00:14:04And they'll tell you,
00:14:05we were the OG Christians
00:14:07outside of the Middle East,
00:14:08outside of the desert regions.
00:14:09And they have a plausible claim
00:14:13to that distinction,
00:14:14I have to say.
00:14:16Anyway,
00:14:16so I started off
00:14:17in the city of Kochi
00:14:18and I had some,
00:14:19you know,
00:14:20veneration
00:14:20of some Christian relics
00:14:23and icons.
00:14:24But the real reason
00:14:25I was there
00:14:25was to meet a guru
00:14:26that I had made contact with,
00:14:28I had heard about
00:14:29and who is quite well-known
00:14:31in India,
00:14:32but not well-known
00:14:33outside India.
00:14:34His name is
00:14:34Sri Noachar Venkacharaman.
00:14:36He's a Tamil guru
00:14:38who is a descendant,
00:14:40a spiritual descendant
00:14:41of one of the greatest gurus
00:14:42of the past hundred years,
00:14:44several hundred years in India,
00:14:46named Ramana Maharshi.
00:14:48He's considered to be
00:14:49even an avatar
00:14:50of Ramana Maharshi,
00:14:52who died before he was born
00:14:53because he was really alive
00:14:54in the 1950s.
00:14:56He was at the time
00:14:59in Palakad,
00:15:00which is a city
00:15:01on the border
00:15:01of Kerala
00:15:02and Tamil Nadu.
00:15:04It's kind of
00:15:05an indistinct
00:15:05Indian city,
00:15:07largely agricultural town
00:15:09that's agricultural.
00:15:10It took me hours
00:15:11and hours
00:15:12to get there by car.
00:15:13I got up
00:15:14at four o'clock
00:15:14in the morning
00:15:15and traveled
00:15:15for hours
00:15:16to get there
00:15:17to this unremarkable town,
00:15:19an unremarkable house
00:15:21that we were given
00:15:22the address of.
00:15:24I got there.
00:15:25It was actually
00:15:27kind of hard
00:15:27making contact
00:15:28with this great teacher.
00:15:30I had it on authority
00:15:31that he could explain
00:15:32this idea to me
00:15:32in very deep terms.
00:15:34But this is not somebody
00:15:36who's doing
00:15:37a lot of marketing
00:15:38of his work.
00:15:39A lot of Indian gurus
00:15:41who are well-known
00:15:42in the West,
00:15:42it's because they have
00:15:43these big platforms.
00:15:45Even on social media,
00:15:46et cetera.
00:15:46This is not this man,
00:15:49this teacher,
00:15:50this guru,
00:15:52Nochir Venkataraman,
00:15:53on the contrary,
00:15:53very quiet,
00:15:54humble man,
00:15:55simply dedicated
00:15:56to helping people
00:15:57attain spiritual growth.
00:15:58He spoke English.
00:15:59Thank goodness
00:15:59because I don't speak
00:16:00Hindi or Malayalam
00:16:02or Tamil,
00:16:03but spoke perfect English
00:16:04as most well-educated
00:16:06Indians do,
00:16:07but he'd never been
00:16:07outside India
00:16:08or he's certainly
00:16:09never been to the West.
00:16:10Why would he?
00:16:11I mean,
00:16:11he wanted to
00:16:13bring his
00:16:14students
00:16:16culture to God.
00:16:17That was his
00:16:17whole purpose.
00:16:18So I got to this house,
00:16:19I took off my sandals,
00:16:20of course,
00:16:20and I went in
00:16:21and he was
00:16:22sitting on the floor
00:16:23with devotees
00:16:24arranged around him
00:16:26silently
00:16:27waiting for me.
00:16:29And he looked at me
00:16:30and made sort of
00:16:31the traditional
00:16:32namaste greeting
00:16:33with his hands
00:16:33and he said,
00:16:34I've been waiting
00:16:36for you.
00:16:37This intense,
00:16:38deep love
00:16:39and humility.
00:16:40and I sat down
00:16:41in front of him
00:16:42and I was silent
00:16:44and immediately
00:16:45I was filled
00:16:46with a complete
00:16:48sense of peace.
00:16:49And what proceeded
00:16:50over the next
00:16:51two hours
00:16:52was his explaining
00:16:53to me
00:16:54this ancient
00:16:55Indian concept
00:16:56of a proper life,
00:16:58my proper life,
00:16:59maybe all of our
00:17:00proper life
00:17:01that's lived
00:17:01in four stages,
00:17:02the ashramas.
00:17:04Now, as he explained
00:17:05it to me,
00:17:07the ashramas
00:17:07are ideally
00:17:0825 years long
00:17:09and what that says
00:17:10is the symmetry
00:17:11of the perfect life
00:17:12is it's lived
00:17:13over a hundred years.
00:17:14Now, of course,
00:17:15that's not realistic
00:17:17given the fact
00:17:17that only one
00:17:18in 6,000 Americans
00:17:19lives to be a centenarian,
00:17:21a lot less in India
00:17:23where public health
00:17:24isn't as good
00:17:24as it is in the United States.
00:17:25They're catching up,
00:17:26which is great,
00:17:27but right now
00:17:28the average American
00:17:29life expectancy
00:17:29is 82
00:17:30and the average Indian
00:17:31life expectancy
00:17:32is 72.
00:17:33The idea is the ideal.
00:17:35It's not, you know,
00:17:36the empirical regularity
00:17:38of what's actually going on
00:17:39and the ideal
00:17:40is 25-year cycles
00:17:42in life
00:17:43in which we
00:17:43fulfill certain function
00:17:45and we graduate
00:17:46onto the next one
00:17:48using the knowledge
00:17:49that we've gained
00:17:50in the part of life,
00:17:51the quarter of life
00:17:52that preceded it.
00:17:53So let me tell you
00:17:53what the quarters of life are
00:17:54and what their functions are
00:17:56and then I'm going to
00:17:56relate it back to
00:17:57this key part of life
00:17:59where people
00:18:00weirdly
00:18:01start feeling
00:18:02more spiritual,
00:18:03more philosophical
00:18:04and even more religious
00:18:05and if that's you,
00:18:06this theory is going
00:18:07to explain some things
00:18:08to you about you.
00:18:11The first quarter of life
00:18:12the guru taught me
00:18:13is called brahmacharya.
00:18:16And brahmacharya
00:18:17is youth,
00:18:18young adulthood
00:18:19and learning.
00:18:20This is, you know,
00:18:21birth until about age 25.
00:18:23This is where you're a kid
00:18:24and you're living
00:18:24with your parents
00:18:25and you're going to school
00:18:27and if you go to university
00:18:28you're doing that
00:18:29and you're learning
00:18:29about your job
00:18:30and your vocation
00:18:31and figuring out
00:18:32what you're going to do
00:18:32for the rest of your life.
00:18:33This is basically
00:18:34human capital development.
00:18:36This is the accumulation
00:18:37of skill and learning.
00:18:39That's the brahmacharya.
00:18:40And brahmacharya
00:18:41means the student phase.
00:18:43This graduates
00:18:44in your mid-20s
00:18:45to grihastha
00:18:46which is known
00:18:47as the householder phase.
00:18:49This is when you form
00:18:50a family.
00:18:50This is when you make
00:18:51a living.
00:18:52This is perhaps
00:18:53when you start a business
00:18:54and this is where
00:18:55you make money.
00:18:56This is where
00:18:57you have a lot of
00:18:58what cognitive neuroscientists
00:19:00call fluid intelligence.
00:19:02I've written a lot
00:19:03about this
00:19:03in my own research.
00:19:04Fluid intelligence
00:19:05is based on
00:19:06working memory.
00:19:08It's based on
00:19:09brand new ideas,
00:19:10autonomous problem solving,
00:19:12mental facility.
00:19:13It's highest
00:19:14in your 20s and 30s.
00:19:15It goes up
00:19:16all the way
00:19:16through your 20s and 30s.
00:19:18It peaks in your late 30s
00:19:19and starts to fall
00:19:20in your 40s
00:19:20which is one of the reasons
00:19:21people tend to burn out
00:19:22on their jobs
00:19:22in their 40s.
00:19:23As a matter of fact,
00:19:24more on that
00:19:24here in a second.
00:19:25But that fluid intelligence
00:19:26makes it possible
00:19:28for you to learn a lot
00:19:29and do a lot
00:19:30and have lots of energy
00:19:31and be really ambitious.
00:19:33This is when you get
00:19:34kind of hooked
00:19:35into worldly goals.
00:19:38Money, power,
00:19:40pleasure, honor,
00:19:42admiration, prestige,
00:19:44all the rewards
00:19:44of the world.
00:19:45That's what
00:19:46Thomas Aquinas,
00:19:47the great
00:19:48Western sage
00:19:49in the 13th century
00:19:50called the world's idols
00:19:52as a matter of fact.
00:19:52But they're not
00:19:53evil per se.
00:19:54There's nothing wrong
00:19:54with money per se.
00:19:55Nothing wrong
00:19:55with power per se.
00:19:56It's a question
00:19:57of whether or not
00:19:57we worship those things.
00:19:59That's when they
00:19:59actually become an idol.
00:20:00And that's the great
00:20:01danger of Grihastha.
00:20:03The second phase,
00:20:04the second quarter
00:20:05of the ideal life
00:20:06is we get stuck there.
00:20:08According to Vedic wisdom,
00:20:09we get stuck in Grihastha.
00:20:10There's two more to go,
00:20:11but we get stuck there
00:20:12because we love
00:20:13the money, power,
00:20:14pleasure, and fame.
00:20:16We love those worldly idols.
00:20:18We can't get away
00:20:18from those worldly idols.
00:20:19We're beguiled by them,
00:20:20but they don't give us
00:20:21true satisfaction,
00:20:22which means that we search
00:20:24for something that will
00:20:25give us more labor
00:20:27in our lives.
00:20:28And we go in one
00:20:29of two ways.
00:20:30One is to say,
00:20:31I guess I needed
00:20:31more of that.
00:20:32You know,
00:20:33typically what a billionaire
00:20:34says when she or he
00:20:35earns their first billion
00:20:36is I'm not feeling
00:20:38what I thought
00:20:38I was going to,
00:20:40I guess I need
00:20:40another billion.
00:20:42And they stay
00:20:42on the wheel.
00:20:43So that's what we
00:20:43in behavioral science
00:20:44call the hedonic treadmill.
00:20:46We run and run and run
00:20:47because according
00:20:48to the Hindu sages,
00:20:50we're stuck in Grihastha.
00:20:51You see how it all
00:20:52hangs together.
00:20:53And my friends,
00:20:54one of the things
00:20:54I want to emphasize here
00:20:55is that when I look
00:20:56at neuroscience,
00:20:58Western theology,
00:21:00Eastern wisdom,
00:21:02behavioral science,
00:21:03it all hangs together.
00:21:05It's very rare
00:21:06that you see discrepancies
00:21:07between these ideas.
00:21:08The question is how
00:21:09the puzzle pieces
00:21:09fit together.
00:21:10And doing what I do
00:21:11for a living is a thrill
00:21:12because I get to work
00:21:13across all of these,
00:21:14all of these areas.
00:21:16And let's just kind
00:21:16of like I'm doing now.
00:21:17Okay.
00:21:18So people get stuck
00:21:19in Grihastha
00:21:19and they're kind of
00:21:21hungry ghosts in their way.
00:21:23They're going through
00:21:25the world,
00:21:25the sense of a lack
00:21:27of satisfaction
00:21:28because they want
00:21:29something and what
00:21:30they use to satiate
00:21:32that appetite
00:21:33isn't what they really want.
00:21:35It's as if you wanted
00:21:36a really nutritious meal
00:21:37but all you have
00:21:38is another plate of Twinkies
00:21:39in front of you.
00:21:40Like, okay, well,
00:21:41I guess I'll have
00:21:41some Twinkies.
00:21:43That's the money,
00:21:43power, pleasure,
00:21:44and fame.
00:21:45What you want
00:21:45is to break that cycle.
00:21:47And to break that cycle
00:21:48is to move into
00:21:49the third phase
00:21:50which some people do.
00:21:52That's when they go
00:21:53into what's called
00:21:54Vanaprastha.
00:21:56Vanaprastha.
00:21:57And again,
00:21:57these phases are going
00:21:58to be, you know,
00:21:59the words are going
00:22:00to be on the screen
00:22:00so you can see them.
00:22:02Prastha is actually
00:22:03an amalgam
00:22:03of two Sanskrit words.
00:22:05Van and Prastha.
00:22:07Van is to retire.
00:22:10I don't mean that literally
00:22:11like quitting your job.
00:22:12That means like backing up.
00:22:14And Prastha is forest.
00:22:15Backing up into the forest.
00:22:17Obviously,
00:22:18it's a metaphor.
00:22:19And you're backing up
00:22:20out of the worldly world
00:22:21of worldly idols
00:22:22into the forest
00:22:24of quiet and calm
00:22:26and coolness.
00:22:28That's what that's
00:22:29supposed to evoke.
00:22:30Now, people have
00:22:32a natural tendency,
00:22:34a natural appetite
00:22:35for that.
00:22:36And one of the things,
00:22:37one of the signals
00:22:38for that that we would see
00:22:39in Western social science
00:22:41is the tendency
00:22:42for people to burn out
00:22:43on their jobs.
00:22:44Now, again,
00:22:44related back to this
00:22:45fluid intelligence idea
00:22:46I talked to you about.
00:22:47It peaks in your late 30s
00:22:49and it declines
00:22:49in your 40s.
00:22:50And the reason
00:22:51that people are burning out
00:22:52in their 40s
00:22:53is not just because
00:22:54they've worked too hard
00:22:54all these years
00:22:55and they're workaholics.
00:22:56It's because what used
00:22:57to be impossible
00:22:58or it used to be hard
00:22:59is now impossible.
00:23:00You know,
00:23:01these cognitive puzzles,
00:23:02they tend to get harder.
00:23:03You tend to feel
00:23:04like you're getting rusty
00:23:05even though you've
00:23:06never stopped working.
00:23:07Well, that's normal.
00:23:08It's the normal functioning
00:23:09in the prefrontal cortex
00:23:10of your brain
00:23:11and your fluid intelligence
00:23:12declining.
00:23:13The good news
00:23:14that most people
00:23:15don't understand
00:23:15is there's a second
00:23:16intelligence coming in
00:23:17behind it
00:23:17and that's
00:23:18crystallized intelligence
00:23:19based on wisdom
00:23:20and pattern recognition
00:23:22and deeper concepts
00:23:23and goals
00:23:25in your life.
00:23:26Deeper knowledge,
00:23:27intuitive knowledge.
00:23:28If you follow my work,
00:23:29this is right
00:23:30hemispheric knowledge.
00:23:32Things about love
00:23:33and happiness,
00:23:34mystery and meaning,
00:23:35the meaning of life.
00:23:36That starts to come in
00:23:37much, much stronger
00:23:38in your late 30s,
00:23:40early 40s,
00:23:41through your 40s.
00:23:42But if you stay
00:23:42on the wheel
00:23:43of these worldly idols,
00:23:45you're stuck in
00:23:45Grihastha.
00:23:46You're trying to stay
00:23:47on the fluid intelligence curve.
00:23:49See how I'm mixing
00:23:49west and east there.
00:23:51And you're going to be
00:23:52really, really frustrated.
00:23:53That desire that you have
00:23:54for something deeper,
00:23:55something deeper,
00:23:56that's the calling
00:23:57of vanaprastha,
00:23:59which is supposed
00:24:00to start really
00:24:01taking over
00:24:01in your late 40s,
00:24:03in your early 50s,
00:24:04according to the
00:24:04quarters of the perfect life
00:24:06where you live
00:24:06to 100 years old.
00:24:07You can see
00:24:08how the pattern
00:24:09is working here.
00:24:10That's also known
00:24:11in Vedic wisdom
00:24:12as the second adolescence
00:24:14because you're going
00:24:15from being sort of
00:24:17a kid of the world
00:24:18to an adult
00:24:18of the world.
00:24:19To have a world,
00:24:20a deep,
00:24:21deep,
00:24:21deep,
00:24:22wise understanding
00:24:23of the world.
00:24:24That's what you're
00:24:24supposed to develop
00:24:25in vanaprastha.
00:24:26It's like being
00:24:26a young adult
00:24:27in your body
00:24:28but in your brain
00:24:29and mind and heart.
00:24:30That's supposed
00:24:30to be happening
00:24:31in your late 40s
00:24:32and early 50s.
00:24:33You're saying,
00:24:33yeah,
00:24:33I used to think
00:24:34that was cool.
00:24:34I used to think
00:24:35that was important.
00:24:36I used to really
00:24:36care about that.
00:24:37Sorry to go,
00:24:38now what I care
00:24:39about is this.
00:24:40And it's something
00:24:41deeper
00:24:41that the young'uns
00:24:43can't quite get.
00:24:44Now,
00:24:44those of you
00:24:44who are young adults,
00:24:45and if you have
00:24:46a yearning
00:24:46for what I'm
00:24:47saying here now,
00:24:48good.
00:24:48Because one of the
00:24:49things that Sri
00:24:50Notra Venkataraman,
00:24:51the guru I was
00:24:52studying with that day,
00:24:53taught me is that
00:24:54this doesn't have
00:24:55to go with the
00:24:56exact years.
00:24:57On the contrary,
00:24:58very spiritually adroit
00:24:59people can go
00:25:00into Vanaprastha
00:25:01much earlier
00:25:02and have these
00:25:03yearnings at a
00:25:04much earlier age.
00:25:05A lot of people
00:25:06who follow this work,
00:25:07I know because
00:25:08I hear from you.
00:25:09I know because
00:25:09I know a lot of you
00:25:10that you are
00:25:11these people
00:25:12who have an
00:25:12accelerated set
00:25:14of ashramas.
00:25:15And I admire that
00:25:16and it's normal
00:25:17and good.
00:25:17So if that's
00:25:18what you're feeling,
00:25:19don't say,
00:25:19well,
00:25:20it's a mistake.
00:25:21I got to wait
00:25:21until I'm 50.
00:25:22No.
00:25:22If you're 25
00:25:23and you're feeling this,
00:25:24it just means
00:25:24that you're advanced
00:25:25is what that means.
00:25:26Now,
00:25:27Vanaprastha,
00:25:28when people
00:25:28actually follow this,
00:25:29when they retire
00:25:30into the forest
00:25:31metaphorically,
00:25:32when they go
00:25:32to deeper things,
00:25:34typically in Vedic wisdom
00:25:35that means
00:25:35they're getting
00:25:36a lot more serious
00:25:37about their spiritual lives.
00:25:38They're getting
00:25:38a lot more interested
00:25:39in their religious lives.
00:25:41And that's a period
00:25:42of elite spiritual training.
00:25:45The idea is
00:25:46it's kind of
00:25:46a spiritual apprenticeship
00:25:47that people undergo
00:25:49starting in their 40s
00:25:51and 50s.
00:25:51And in this
00:25:52spiritual apprenticeship,
00:25:54they're still,
00:25:54you know,
00:25:55making a living.
00:25:55I mean,
00:25:56you got to make a living,
00:25:56you got to pay the rent,
00:25:57man.
00:25:58But you put it
00:25:59in proper perspective
00:25:59and you're spending
00:26:00more of your time
00:26:01actually thinking
00:26:02about these deeper things.
00:26:03Typically,
00:26:03in the case of people
00:26:04who are married,
00:26:05which is the majority
00:26:06of adults,
00:26:07you're doing that
00:26:08with your spouse.
00:26:09You and your spouse
00:26:10are in Vanaprastha
00:26:12together.
00:26:13You're getting more
00:26:14spiritual,
00:26:15religious,
00:26:15or more philosophical
00:26:16talking about deeper things
00:26:18together.
00:26:19You're in deep training
00:26:20for something,
00:26:21something,
00:26:22something.
00:26:22and that something
00:26:23comes in the fourth quarter,
00:26:24the fourth ashrama,
00:26:25which is called
00:26:26sannyasa.
00:26:27The sannyasa
00:26:28is dedicated
00:26:29to the fruits
00:26:30of the enlightenment
00:26:31to live
00:26:32in the numinescence
00:26:33of what you've been
00:26:34training for
00:26:35in that third quarter.
00:26:37Vanaprastha
00:26:37is your elite training.
00:26:39Now,
00:26:39a lot of people
00:26:40that I talk to,
00:26:41they say,
00:26:41yeah,
00:26:42you know,
00:26:42I'm fundamentally
00:26:42a religious person,
00:26:43but,
00:26:44you know,
00:26:44when I get older,
00:26:45I'll go back to church,
00:26:46I'll go back to synagogue,
00:26:46I'll go back to temple,
00:26:47I'll start practicing
00:26:49my religion again
00:26:50seriously when I get older.
00:26:51And they kind of
00:26:52imagine themselves
00:26:53at 75 years old
00:26:55going to church.
00:26:56Well,
00:26:56if you never did it before,
00:26:58you probably won't
00:26:59because you didn't
00:27:00do the training
00:27:00to actually appreciate
00:27:03that numinescence,
00:27:05the import
00:27:06of sitting
00:27:07in the divine light.
00:27:09That's the idea
00:27:09that actually comes
00:27:10from this theory
00:27:11of the ashramas.
00:27:12And it kind of makes sense
00:27:13because I've seen
00:27:13this pattern again
00:27:14and again and again
00:27:15in people
00:27:15where they always
00:27:16wanted to practice
00:27:17their religion,
00:27:18but when they're
00:27:18in their 60s and 70s,
00:27:20they find that
00:27:20they just kind of can't.
00:27:22And I've had a lot
00:27:23of people tell me this.
00:27:24A lot of people
00:27:24in their 60s and 70s
00:27:25and 80s tell me this
00:27:26and they'll say,
00:27:27you know,
00:27:27you're a religious person.
00:27:29I envy that.
00:27:30I wish I could feel that.
00:27:32You know,
00:27:32and the truth is
00:27:33that that feels
00:27:34unavailable to them
00:27:35because they kind of
00:27:36missed the window.
00:27:37Now, again,
00:27:38it's never too late, folks.
00:27:39I mean,
00:27:40if you're in your 70s
00:27:41or 80s
00:27:41and you're feeling this
00:27:42and you haven't done it before,
00:27:43what you need to do
00:27:44is you need to study.
00:27:45As the kids
00:27:46these days say,
00:27:47you gotta do the work.
00:27:49And that means
00:27:49do your vana prastha
00:27:51is what it comes to.
00:27:52It means reading
00:27:53the Holy Scriptures
00:27:54and studying with people
00:27:56and practicing
00:27:56and learning what it means
00:27:58such that you can get
00:27:59to sannyasa
00:28:00at some point
00:28:01in your life.
00:28:01But that's the goal.
00:28:03and trying to do sannyasa
00:28:05without ever having
00:28:05doing vana prastha
00:28:06according to these Vedic thinkers
00:28:08would be like
00:28:09going to the Olympics
00:28:10without having trained.
00:28:12You know,
00:28:12showing up for the,
00:28:13you know,
00:28:14the 100-yard dash
00:28:1525 pounds overweight.
00:28:17Good luck to you.
00:28:18I would,
00:28:18you know,
00:28:19it'll be a fun blooper reel
00:28:21watching you do the hurdles
00:28:22or something
00:28:23and it'll be hard,
00:28:24right?
00:28:25You know here
00:28:27that you're being pulled
00:28:29in this particular direction
00:28:30of vana prastha.
00:28:31Why?
00:28:31Because you're being pulled
00:28:32towards something
00:28:33that is your ultimate
00:28:34beautiful fate.
00:28:37It's the goal of your life.
00:28:39Now, again,
00:28:39this transcends
00:28:40all the religious traditions
00:28:42because what we see
00:28:42is this idea
00:28:43of the point of being old
00:28:46is being able to enjoy,
00:28:49to sit in the presence of God,
00:28:51to be able to explain
00:28:53it to other people.
00:28:54That's what old people
00:28:55are really, really good at
00:28:56if they did the work.
00:28:58What I'm really talking about
00:28:59in this episode
00:29:00is vana prastha.
00:29:02I talked about
00:29:03when you're feeling a pull,
00:29:04whether you're advanced
00:29:05and you're doing it
00:29:06in your 20s
00:29:06or whether you're right on time
00:29:08in your late 40s
00:29:08or somewhere in between,
00:29:10maybe you're doing it
00:29:10a little bit late
00:29:11in your 50s or 60s.
00:29:13Why, you know,
00:29:15neurobiologically,
00:29:16why is this happening
00:29:17and how can you best
00:29:18accommodate it?
00:29:20There are very few books
00:29:21out there that say,
00:29:22so you're feeling religious.
00:29:23You know,
00:29:24here's what you do.
00:29:25Well, that's what this is for
00:29:27because I've actually
00:29:28done the work
00:29:28pursuant to this
00:29:29beautiful, beautiful visit
00:29:31and writing about this.
00:29:33If you want to hear more
00:29:34about a lot of what
00:29:35I'm talking about here,
00:29:36this is in a book
00:29:37that I wrote in 2022
00:29:38called From Strength to Strength
00:29:39and we'll put the book cover up
00:29:41and put it in the show notes here.
00:29:42You can get that
00:29:43if you want
00:29:44and you like listening.
00:29:46I read it
00:29:46and you can get
00:29:47the audio version
00:29:47and I will read it to you
00:29:49with the dulcet tones
00:29:50of my reading voice.
00:29:51So however you want,
00:29:52you can go deeper,
00:29:53deeper, deeper,
00:29:54much more than I'm doing here
00:29:55by getting from
00:29:56strength to strength.
00:29:58Okay, so the truth
00:29:59of the matter is
00:30:00that a lot of people
00:30:00are, they feel this pull
00:30:02because, because
00:30:03vona Prosta,
00:30:04but there's a ton
00:30:05of research from the West
00:30:06that shows that
00:30:07this is not just
00:30:07an Indian theory.
00:30:08This is not just
00:30:09Eastern philosophy
00:30:11on the contrary.
00:30:12For example,
00:30:12there's a bunch of data
00:30:13out from 2018
00:30:15from the Pew Research Center.
00:30:17Again, probably
00:30:18in the United States,
00:30:19one of the three or four
00:30:20most reputable sources
00:30:21of survey data
00:30:22on human behavior
00:30:23in the United States,
00:30:24around the world
00:30:25for that matter.
00:30:26And it's a survey
00:30:27from June of 2018
00:30:29called Why Do Levels
00:30:30of Religious Observance
00:30:31Vary by Age and Country?
00:30:33And there's a lot in it.
00:30:34Go look at it.
00:30:35I'll put it in the show notes.
00:30:36You can go click on it.
00:30:37But here's the key point
00:30:38that I want to give you
00:30:39that they show very clearly
00:30:40in those data
00:30:41that people feel
00:30:43that they do, in fact,
00:30:45tend to feel pulled
00:30:46toward faith in midlife.
00:30:48Not everybody,
00:30:49your results may vary.
00:30:50I know some who don't.
00:30:51I know some avowed atheists
00:30:53who are like,
00:30:53no, but I mean,
00:30:54it's a kind of a natural thing.
00:30:56It's this progression
00:30:57of the fluid
00:30:58to crystallized
00:30:58intelligence curves.
00:31:00Maybe it's the workings
00:31:01of the universe.
00:31:02You decide.
00:31:03You probably don't have to decide,
00:31:04but it is an empirical regularity.
00:31:06And I think that's really weird.
00:31:07Why is it in your late 40s
00:31:09and early 50s,
00:31:09maybe before,
00:31:11that you find a pull
00:31:12to religion
00:31:12when you didn't have one before?
00:31:14That might seem weird
00:31:15because we're talking
00:31:17about faith here,
00:31:19which is a belief
00:31:20in things unseen.
00:31:22The faith in things unseen
00:31:23that you had from a kid,
00:31:24they don't grow
00:31:25as you get older.
00:31:26You don't like,
00:31:26you know,
00:31:26at 49 years old,
00:31:28you're like,
00:31:28you know,
00:31:28I do believe in Santa Claus.
00:31:30Huh.
00:31:30You know,
00:31:31I think they're making
00:31:32a good case
00:31:33for the tooth fairy,
00:31:34said no 49-year-old ever
00:31:35who's of sound mind.
00:31:37On the other hand,
00:31:37there are all these other things
00:31:38that require faith,
00:31:40things as unseen
00:31:41as the tooth fairy.
00:31:43As the Bible clearly says
00:31:45in the first letter
00:31:46of St. John the Apostle,
00:31:48no one sees God.
00:31:50No one sees God.
00:31:52No one sees the tooth fairy
00:31:53either, folks.
00:31:54But there's something different
00:31:56about these experiences.
00:31:57And this is a really
00:31:58compelling explanation,
00:31:59or at least argument,
00:32:01for the idea
00:32:01that there's something
00:32:02different about
00:32:03these mythologies,
00:32:04that there's something
00:32:05different at the level
00:32:06of human consciousness
00:32:07between these mythologies.
00:32:10One's just a story
00:32:11you tell a kid.
00:32:12Something else has
00:32:13some weird truth
00:32:14behind it, man.
00:32:15And I can't quite say
00:32:16what it is,
00:32:17but I'm getting this pull
00:32:19as I'm naturally
00:32:20tending toward
00:32:21Vana Prastha
00:32:22in the changes,
00:32:23the neurophysiological
00:32:24changes in my brain,
00:32:26in the changes
00:32:26of my heart,
00:32:27maybe my soul.
00:32:29Hmm.
00:32:29But that is absolutely
00:32:30the case,
00:32:31and we see it
00:32:31very, very clearly
00:32:32in the data.
00:32:33Now, sociologists
00:32:34have observed this
00:32:35in the West as well,
00:32:36by the way.
00:32:37There's a great
00:32:37sociologist,
00:32:38James Fowler,
00:32:39who talks about
00:32:39the phases
00:32:40of religious observation,
00:32:42and he talks about,
00:32:43you know,
00:32:43he categorizes them.
00:32:44When you're a little kid,
00:32:45you believe what you're told.
00:32:47When you are,
00:32:48you know,
00:32:48in elementary school,
00:32:50you believe
00:32:51what your parents believe.
00:32:52When you're in high school
00:32:53and college,
00:32:54you're starting
00:32:55to question a lot of things.
00:32:56In your 20s and 30s,
00:32:57that's when people,
00:32:57they tend to kind of
00:32:58pull away
00:32:59from their childhood beliefs,
00:33:01and those who have
00:33:01very traditional
00:33:02Western religious beliefs,
00:33:04especially Christian
00:33:05religious beliefs,
00:33:06that's when they tend
00:33:06to fall away.
00:33:07For one very fundamental reason,
00:33:09this might be why
00:33:09you fell away,
00:33:11which is that
00:33:11bad things happen
00:33:13to good people.
00:33:14I mean,
00:33:14it's just,
00:33:15you know,
00:33:15the great book
00:33:16by Rabbi Kushner,
00:33:18why do bad things
00:33:18happen to good people?
00:33:19But that's a big question.
00:33:21You see kids suffering,
00:33:22and you see famine
00:33:22and pestilence,
00:33:23and you say,
00:33:24okay,
00:33:24I learned in Sunday school
00:33:26that there's a good God,
00:33:27a merciful God,
00:33:27a loving God.
00:33:28But then this,
00:33:29really?
00:33:29Sorry.
00:33:30Cognitive dissonance.
00:33:31I hear this,
00:33:32I see that,
00:33:33I'm going to go
00:33:33with what I see,
00:33:35you know?
00:33:35I'm not going to follow
00:33:36Groucho Marx and say,
00:33:37who are you going to believe,
00:33:38me or your lying eyes?
00:33:40No.
00:33:40You're going to follow
00:33:41what you see,
00:33:42and what you see
00:33:43is a lot of misery,
00:33:44and that's inconsistent
00:33:44with the idea
00:33:45of a loving,
00:33:46merciful God,
00:33:46and so you leave it behind.
00:33:48You're questioned it.
00:33:49You fall away.
00:33:51So that's very,
00:33:52very common
00:33:53in the 20s and 30s.
00:33:54Maybe it's your experience
00:33:55as well.
00:33:56But then a funny thing happens
00:33:57as you start to move
00:33:58from your fluid
00:33:58to a crystallized intelligence,
00:34:00as you move
00:34:00from your Grihasta
00:34:02into your,
00:34:03toward your Vana Prastha,
00:34:04you realize something
00:34:05funny about life,
00:34:06which is there's a lot
00:34:07of things you don't understand
00:34:08and don't make sense,
00:34:09and you're never going
00:34:10to understand,
00:34:10and they're never
00:34:11going to make sense.
00:34:12What you learn
00:34:13at a certain point
00:34:14in your life
00:34:14is that life
00:34:15is a dog's breakfast.
00:34:16It's a huge mess,
00:34:19and you're not
00:34:19going to sort it out.
00:34:21You have to make decisions
00:34:22on the basis
00:34:23of inconsistency a lot.
00:34:25You honestly believe
00:34:27naturally,
00:34:28and again,
00:34:28this is a theory
00:34:29of how people
00:34:30develop neurocognitively
00:34:32as much as anything else
00:34:32in your 20s and 30s
00:34:33that life doesn't make sense,
00:34:36but it's going to,
00:34:37that life has
00:34:38an internal consistency,
00:34:38and you're going
00:34:39to figure it out,
00:34:40and that somebody
00:34:41does understand what it is,
00:34:42and then you realize
00:34:43as you proceed
00:34:44through the years
00:34:44that nobody
00:34:46hasn't figured out.
00:34:47No.
00:34:49And so the result
00:34:50of it is that
00:34:51you've got to
00:34:51make peace with that,
00:34:52and one of the ways
00:34:53that you make peace
00:34:54with that is to say,
00:34:55in this messy world,
00:34:56there can be truths
00:34:58that I don't understand,
00:35:00but that feel right.
00:35:02They feel right,
00:35:03and I can't say why,
00:35:04and that's where
00:35:05a lot of faith
00:35:05and spirituality
00:35:06starts to come in
00:35:07for people
00:35:08at this juncture
00:35:09in their lives
00:35:10according to the data,
00:35:12the best studies,
00:35:12and perhaps
00:35:13according to your life
00:35:15and also according
00:35:17to these religious theories
00:35:18that go across traditions.
00:35:21That's a lot of prastha.
00:35:23Now,
00:35:24the problem is this.
00:35:25If you're feeling that pull,
00:35:27many people
00:35:27don't know what to do.
00:35:28Now,
00:35:28maybe it's as simple
00:35:30as you're married
00:35:32to somebody
00:35:32who's religious
00:35:33and you say,
00:35:33I'm ready,
00:35:34I'm ready,
00:35:35right?
00:35:36Or going back
00:35:37to the faith
00:35:38of your youth wholesale,
00:35:39but for a lot of people
00:35:40it's not so simple.
00:35:41Either they weren't raised
00:35:42in a tradition,
00:35:43even though they want one,
00:35:45whatever the tradition
00:35:46might be,
00:35:46they might feel
00:35:48a lot of pride
00:35:49in having
00:35:49or sort of
00:35:51a sense of
00:35:52vulnerability
00:35:53about saying
00:35:55something that
00:35:55they knew was wrong
00:35:57might be right.
00:35:59I mean,
00:35:59we hate going back
00:36:00on our commitments,
00:36:01man.
00:36:01We hate that.
00:36:02And so people find
00:36:03all these barriers
00:36:04and there are very few
00:36:05resources out there
00:36:06to do that.
00:36:07To retire into the forest
00:36:08is not just enough
00:36:09to say,
00:36:10I'm going to go read
00:36:11some holy books
00:36:12and start hanging out
00:36:13and praying
00:36:14and then all is going
00:36:15to be well.
00:36:16You need a more
00:36:16structured approach to it.
00:36:18So what I want to do
00:36:19is I want to give you
00:36:20a few ideas.
00:36:22I want to give you
00:36:22a few ideas
00:36:23on some things
00:36:24that you can actually do
00:36:25if you're feeling this pull.
00:36:26Now,
00:36:26this is not an exhaustive list.
00:36:27Again,
00:36:28read from strength
00:36:29to strength
00:36:30which actually has
00:36:30a whole lot of references
00:36:32in that book
00:36:33to other tools
00:36:34and other books
00:36:35that are written
00:36:35as well have done that.
00:36:37But here's some ideas
00:36:39and let me see
00:36:39how many ideas
00:36:40I wrote down here
00:36:41that I want to share
00:36:41with you
00:36:42on your journey.
00:36:43Here's four.
00:36:44Maybe I'm going to give you
00:36:45five as a matter of fact.
00:36:46So number one is this.
00:36:49Loosen your commitments
00:36:50to not believing
00:36:52the none.
00:36:53It's interesting
00:36:54because one of
00:36:54the least frequent
00:36:57religious commitments
00:36:58that people used to make
00:36:59as recently
00:37:00as the 1970s and 80s
00:37:01was none.
00:37:02I don't mean none
00:37:03like a Catholic
00:37:04none in a habit,
00:37:05N-U-N.
00:37:06I mean N-O-N-E.
00:37:07What is your
00:37:08religious tradition?
00:37:09What is your
00:37:10religious commitment?
00:37:11And when I was born
00:37:13in the mid-1960s,
00:37:141% of people said none.
00:37:16Now it's 33%
00:37:17of people say none.
00:37:18As a social scientist,
00:37:19man, I never see
00:37:21dynamics like that.
00:37:22That's really unusual.
00:37:24So that's a huge run up.
00:37:26But that's a commitment
00:37:26like anything else
00:37:27and people hate
00:37:28going back
00:37:28on their commitments.
00:37:29It makes them feel
00:37:30bad about themselves.
00:37:31It makes them feel
00:37:31like they lack integrity.
00:37:33It makes them feel
00:37:33vulnerable as a matter of fact.
00:37:35And there's tons
00:37:36of literature
00:37:36on why that would be the case
00:37:37but you can imagine
00:37:38why that is.
00:37:40But loosening
00:37:40an old commitment
00:37:41is very different
00:37:42than adopting a new one.
00:37:45So if you're a nun
00:37:46but you're having
00:37:47these yearnings,
00:37:48don't let your nun status,
00:37:50your nun identity
00:37:51define you.
00:37:52So the first thing
00:37:53that I recommend
00:37:54in loosening that
00:37:54is if somebody says
00:37:56what's your religion?
00:37:56You say,
00:37:57well, nun for now, right?
00:38:00Hedge a little bit.
00:38:01Give yourself
00:38:02a little wiggle room
00:38:03because when you do that
00:38:04then cognitively
00:38:05you'll be able
00:38:06to grow into the space
00:38:07that you've created
00:38:08for yourself.
00:38:09And that's a very,
00:38:10very important
00:38:11behavioral technique
00:38:13that you actually have.
00:38:14It's one of the things
00:38:15that we see
00:38:15when people are starting
00:38:16to change their political views.
00:38:17The first thing
00:38:18that they do
00:38:18is they start
00:38:19they don't abandon theirs
00:38:21but they start
00:38:21defending people
00:38:22in arguments
00:38:23who don't share
00:38:24their political views.
00:38:25That's a sure sign
00:38:26they're trying to get
00:38:26some wiggle room
00:38:27for themselves
00:38:28which is great.
00:38:29By the way,
00:38:30that's fantastic.
00:38:31So that's how to do it.
00:38:32No, no, no, no, no.
00:38:33I don't practice.
00:38:34No, no, no.
00:38:34But for now.
00:38:36But I'm kind of open.
00:38:38That's a pretty interesting
00:38:39commitment right there.
00:38:40The second
00:38:41is to think of
00:38:42your religious life,
00:38:44your spiritual life,
00:38:45your philosophical life
00:38:46if it's not
00:38:46not traditional
00:38:47or not even religious
00:38:48for that matter
00:38:49as an entrepreneurial endeavor
00:38:51as a new thing
00:38:53that you're actually
00:38:53trying to create.
00:38:54Something that you're
00:38:55starting fresh on.
00:38:57something that you've
00:38:58actually never done before
00:38:59which is a pretty fun
00:39:01and interesting thing to do.
00:39:03You know,
00:39:03I don't mean to
00:39:04trivialize faith at all
00:39:05but it's sort of your hobby.
00:39:07It's sort of your
00:39:08side hustle
00:39:09is what you're trying
00:39:10to do with your soul
00:39:11which is super fun
00:39:13and interesting.
00:39:14The reason for that
00:39:15is because
00:39:15there's so much out there
00:39:17that you can learn
00:39:17and again,
00:39:18this is with
00:39:19you still have the
00:39:19commitment of none now
00:39:20but you're very interested
00:39:22in this thing.
00:39:23Take an intellectual interest
00:39:24in the faith
00:39:26that you're examining
00:39:27or the faiths
00:39:27that you're actually
00:39:28considering.
00:39:29That's the process
00:39:31of entrepreneurial
00:39:32reinvention.
00:39:34Behavioral reinvention
00:39:35is starting fresh
00:39:37a clean slate
00:39:38with an agenda
00:39:40to learn
00:39:41to be excited
00:39:42about something.
00:39:43That's the second thing.
00:39:44That's the second approach
00:39:45to it.
00:39:46It's not like
00:39:46I'm going to go
00:39:47believe something.
00:39:48No.
00:39:48I'm going to go learn
00:39:49about something.
00:39:50I'm going to learn
00:39:50about that.
00:39:51Learning is so interesting
00:39:52because it feeds
00:39:53into the positive
00:39:54basic emotion
00:39:54that humans have
00:39:55of interest.
00:39:58And this is
00:39:58if you're going
00:39:59into Vana Prostate
00:40:00you're going to know it.
00:40:01It's interesting to you.
00:40:02So feed the interest.
00:40:03Don't worry about
00:40:04anything else.
00:40:05Feed that interest.
00:40:06Number three
00:40:07is I recommend
00:40:08doing something physical
00:40:11that actually
00:40:13can open up your soul.
00:40:14And here's what
00:40:15I recommend.
00:40:16Many of you
00:40:17if you follow my work
00:40:17at all
00:40:18you know that
00:40:18I recommend
00:40:19a pilgrimage.
00:40:21Why?
00:40:21Because every
00:40:22religious tradition
00:40:23every religious tradition
00:40:25has pilgrimages.
00:40:27Pilgrimages
00:40:27are walking journeys
00:40:29where people
00:40:30are dedicating
00:40:31themselves to thinking
00:40:32contemplating
00:40:33prayer
00:40:34practice
00:40:35while they walk.
00:40:36Why?
00:40:37Because there's
00:40:37something about
00:40:38the human species
00:40:39ambulation
00:40:40walking
00:40:40is the most
00:40:41natural thing.
00:40:43We walk
00:40:43and walk
00:40:44and walk
00:40:44we're a walking
00:40:45species.
00:40:46I've probably
00:40:46mentioned it before
00:40:47but anthropologists
00:40:48have found it
00:40:49really interesting
00:40:50that one of our
00:40:51great feats
00:40:52as predators
00:40:54as hunters
00:40:55is the ability
00:40:56to walk
00:40:56long distances.
00:40:57You can literally
00:40:58if you can track
00:40:59an animal
00:40:59which I can't
00:41:00I mean I can't
00:41:01I can't even
00:41:01track myself
00:41:02I can't even
00:41:03I can't read a map
00:41:04I can't even read
00:41:05my GPS
00:41:06for Pete's sake
00:41:07but you know
00:41:07if you can track
00:41:08an animal
00:41:08you can walk
00:41:09it to death.
00:41:10You can
00:41:11you can hunt
00:41:11a gazelle
00:41:12with a spear
00:41:13you don't have
00:41:14to hit it
00:41:14you don't have
00:41:15to throw it
00:41:16you know
00:41:16300 yards
00:41:17walk and walk
00:41:18and walk
00:41:19track and track
00:41:19and track
00:41:19and you can
00:41:20walk more
00:41:21than it can run
00:41:22and that's how
00:41:24you know
00:41:25early hunters
00:41:26in the Pleistocene
00:41:26they hunted game
00:41:28was with this
00:41:28great ambulation
00:41:30that's a natural
00:41:30human thing to do
00:41:31and we walk
00:41:33ourselves toward
00:41:33our prey
00:41:34we walk
00:41:34ourselves
00:41:35metaphorically
00:41:36toward what
00:41:36we actually seek
00:41:37and in many cases
00:41:39that's a sense
00:41:40of truth
00:41:41and that's one
00:41:41of the reasons
00:41:41that every
00:41:42religious tradition
00:41:43many philosophical
00:41:43non-religious
00:41:44traditions have
00:41:45it as well
00:41:45as a pilgrimage
00:41:46so I recommend
00:41:47finding a way
00:41:47to do that
00:41:48to get away
00:41:48from your
00:41:48ordinary life
00:41:49on a fairly
00:41:50regular basis
00:41:51and do a pilgrimage
00:41:52maybe you're going
00:41:52to walk a couple
00:41:53of sections
00:41:53of the Appalachian
00:41:54Trail
00:41:54the Pacific Coast
00:41:56Trail
00:41:56I've walked
00:41:56the Camino
00:41:57of the Santiago
00:41:57across northern
00:41:58Spain twice
00:41:59maybe you're going
00:42:00to take a walking
00:42:00or hiking
00:42:01vacation
00:42:02but with a
00:42:02spiritual intent
00:42:04I want to learn
00:42:05more
00:42:05I want to listen
00:42:06more
00:42:07I'm going to
00:42:08maybe do a little
00:42:08bit of prayer
00:42:09I'm going to read
00:42:09but do the walking
00:42:11because walking
00:42:11has this
00:42:12not magical
00:42:13it's quite
00:42:14earthbound
00:42:15but it has a
00:42:17real effect
00:42:18on your mind
00:42:20on your brain
00:42:21maybe on your soul
00:42:23I can't
00:42:24I can't
00:42:24prove that one
00:42:26now fourth
00:42:27I recommend
00:42:29that you
00:42:29that you
00:42:30get a partner
00:42:31in this
00:42:32a buddy
00:42:32in this
00:42:33you know
00:42:33one of the things
00:42:34that you'll find
00:42:35is that when
00:42:35you've got this
00:42:35you've got a project
00:42:36you're trying to learn
00:42:37something important
00:42:38and improve yourself
00:42:40it's better
00:42:41when you have a buddy
00:42:41because of accountability
00:42:42but also because
00:42:43it's more fun
00:42:44which is why
00:42:45people who
00:42:45you know
00:42:46the data say
00:42:46that if you're
00:42:47trying to
00:42:47you know
00:42:48get into the gym
00:42:48and improve
00:42:50your health
00:42:50it's better
00:42:52early on
00:42:53if you have
00:42:53a training partner
00:42:54some people
00:42:54will hire a coach
00:42:55that's the new thing
00:42:56but I find
00:42:56it's less fun
00:42:57than somebody
00:42:58who's also
00:42:58actually trying
00:42:59to learn
00:42:59alongside you
00:43:00now I've been
00:43:01working at a radio
00:43:02for 30 years
00:43:02I don't need that
00:43:03and besides
00:43:04no person
00:43:05in their right mind
00:43:05is going to get up
00:43:06and work out
00:43:06with me at 445
00:43:07in the morning
00:43:08which is when
00:43:08I'm hitting the gym
00:43:09but early on
00:43:10for sure
00:43:11I wanted to be
00:43:12around people
00:43:13I wanted to make
00:43:13it social
00:43:14when it comes
00:43:14to what you're
00:43:15actually trying
00:43:16to do
00:43:16in the gym
00:43:17of your soul
00:43:18take a partner
00:43:19with you
00:43:19and this is
00:43:19one of the reasons
00:43:20that ancient
00:43:21ancient Vedic
00:43:22wisdom said
00:43:22that the
00:43:23that the
00:43:23vanaprastha
00:43:24that third quarter
00:43:26is best done
00:43:27with the spouse
00:43:28now again
00:43:29your results
00:43:30may differ
00:43:30maybe you're not
00:43:30married
00:43:31maybe your spouse
00:43:33is like no
00:43:34right
00:43:35but a lot
00:43:36of times
00:43:36spouses are going
00:43:37through this
00:43:37together
00:43:38and you know
00:43:39Esther and I
00:43:40we deepened
00:43:40our commitments
00:43:41our religious
00:43:42commitments
00:43:42together
00:43:43in such
00:43:43an incredible
00:43:45way
00:43:45that just
00:43:45was so great
00:43:46for our marriage
00:43:47as we moved
00:43:48through our 40s
00:43:49and 50s
00:43:49we're practicing
00:43:50and we're believers
00:43:51and all that
00:43:51but our vanaprastha
00:43:53was a deepening
00:43:54thing
00:43:54and it was
00:43:54very profound
00:43:55we learned a lot
00:43:56more
00:43:56you know
00:43:57my wife wound up
00:43:58you know
00:43:58getting graduate
00:43:59education in theology
00:44:00and she teaches
00:44:02me as a result
00:44:03of that
00:44:03and you can do
00:44:03these wonderful
00:44:04things together
00:44:05get a buddy
00:44:05get a partner
00:44:06not necessarily
00:44:07your spouse
00:44:08but certainly
00:44:08that's a
00:44:08that's a great
00:44:09way to do it
00:44:10and number five
00:44:11is think about
00:44:11a teacher
00:44:12is think about
00:44:13actually how you
00:44:14can get a teacher
00:44:15I've encouraged
00:44:17a lot of people
00:44:18to get a rabbi
00:44:20to get a teacher
00:44:22and you know
00:44:23a lot of my
00:44:23Jewish friends
00:44:24to do that
00:44:24a lot of
00:44:26you know
00:44:26people who are
00:44:27not committed
00:44:29to their Christian faith
00:44:30but to get somebody
00:44:31who really knows
00:44:32a lot
00:44:33with whom they can
00:44:33actually meet
00:44:34and talk about this
00:44:34who's not going
00:44:35to put pressure
00:44:35on them
00:44:36but who's actually
00:44:36going to teach them
00:44:37and who has
00:44:37some authority
00:44:38and who can
00:44:39actually answer
00:44:39questions
00:44:40these are five
00:44:41steps that I
00:44:42recommend
00:44:42and there's a lot
00:44:43more that goes
00:44:43along with it
00:44:44but if you did
00:44:44these five steps
00:44:45with an open mind
00:44:46and with an open heart
00:44:47not saying
00:44:48okay I promise
00:44:49I'm going to convert
00:44:50and it's all going
00:44:50to be
00:44:50you don't have
00:44:51to have this
00:44:51like maudlin
00:44:53dramatic
00:44:54religious experience
00:44:56you know
00:44:56weeping
00:44:57and you know
00:44:57at an altar call
00:44:58this is just you
00:45:00and this is you
00:45:01you building your life
00:45:02is the way
00:45:03that this works
00:45:03you got the call
00:45:05inside you
00:45:05and you're answering
00:45:06the call
00:45:07in a subtle way
00:45:08the still
00:45:09small voice
00:45:10that's calling
00:45:11to you
00:45:11through perhaps
00:45:12these five steps
00:45:13don't put it off
00:45:14put it off
00:45:15and don't put it
00:45:16put it off
00:45:16because of obstacles
00:45:17in your path
00:45:18the journey
00:45:19of spiritual discovery
00:45:20is a normal thing
00:45:22and it's really
00:45:23one of greats
00:45:24life's greatest delights
00:45:25let me leave you
00:45:26before we go to
00:45:26some questions
00:45:27with the words
00:45:27of the Indian
00:45:28yogi and poet
00:45:29Sri Arobindo
00:45:31whose work
00:45:32really a great poet
00:45:34how he describes
00:45:35faith as an adventure
00:45:36all the things
00:45:37we're talking about here
00:45:38a divine force
00:45:39shall flow
00:45:40through tissue
00:45:40and cell
00:45:41and take the charge
00:45:42of breath
00:45:43and speech
00:45:43and act
00:45:44and all the thoughts
00:45:46shall be a glow
00:45:47of suns
00:45:48and every feeling
00:45:49of celestial thrill
00:45:51well celestial or not
00:45:52the thrill is real
00:45:54lean into it
00:45:55do a couple of questions
00:45:57and then we're done
00:45:57here's one from
00:46:00an anonymous correspondent
00:46:01who wrote into the website
00:46:03what are the evolutionary
00:46:04benefits of dark triad traits
00:46:07a really popular episode
00:46:08of office hours
00:46:09is when I talked about
00:46:10the dark triad
00:46:11and I'll remind you
00:46:11that that's the constellation
00:46:13of three personality
00:46:14characteristics
00:46:14just simply to be
00:46:16above average
00:46:17on three personality
00:46:18characteristics
00:46:19of narcissism
00:46:20it's all about me
00:46:21Machiavellianism
00:46:22I'm willing to trick
00:46:23and hurt you
00:46:24to get what I want
00:46:25and psychopathy
00:46:26psychopathic traits
00:46:27which again
00:46:28just above
00:46:28the population average
00:46:30of low remorse
00:46:32and low empathy
00:46:33okay so those
00:46:34three things together
00:46:34is called the dark triad
00:46:35and dark triads
00:46:36can wreak havoc
00:46:37in your life
00:46:38as I often say
00:46:40that's everybody's
00:46:40first husband
00:46:41so what are the
00:46:42evolutionary benefits
00:46:43of dark triad traits
00:46:44and I love this question
00:46:45because this is a question
00:46:46of somebody who
00:46:46obviously watches
00:46:47the show a lot
00:46:48knows that I'm always
00:46:48relying on evolutionary biology
00:46:51I mean it's not
00:46:52it's not the be all
00:46:52and end all
00:46:53it's not the only explanation
00:46:54but good explanations
00:46:55often start
00:46:56with the human brain
00:46:57in the middle place
00:46:58to see
00:46:59so you know
00:47:00what did it serve
00:47:01why is it still here
00:47:02what does it serve
00:47:03right
00:47:04an example of this is
00:47:05why is depression
00:47:07part and parcel
00:47:08of the human experience
00:47:09and it almost certainly
00:47:10has to do with the fact
00:47:11that depression
00:47:11is characterized
00:47:12by rumination
00:47:14which is a hyperactivity
00:47:16in the ventrolateral
00:47:17prefrontal cortex
00:47:17of the brain
00:47:18and that rumination
00:47:21is what we use
00:47:21to learn
00:47:22to get past
00:47:23something that's hurt us
00:47:25that's grieved us
00:47:26that's been a mistake
00:47:27the learning process
00:47:28requires doing the work
00:47:30and your brain
00:47:30naturally does that
00:47:31which can be maladapted
00:47:33and turn it into depression
00:47:33it's an example
00:47:34of why it still exists
00:47:36according to evolution
00:47:37why would dark triads
00:47:38still exist
00:47:39and the answer to that
00:47:40is almost certainly
00:47:40that being a dark triad
00:47:42brings short run benefits
00:47:43short term benefits
00:47:45dark triads
00:47:46in the very near term
00:47:47before they get caught
00:47:48and kicked out
00:47:49they get a lot of resources
00:47:50I mean
00:47:51when you trick people
00:47:51and you double cross them
00:47:53because you only care
00:47:54about yourself
00:47:55you will see success
00:47:57at least additionally
00:47:57and the truth is
00:47:58that the ancient world
00:47:59was all short run
00:48:01because people didn't
00:48:01live very long
00:48:02you know
00:48:03it was getting from here
00:48:03to sundown
00:48:04or here to tomorrow
00:48:05or here to my next mate
00:48:06there are very few
00:48:09long run benefits
00:48:10there's mostly long run costs
00:48:12with respect to isolation
00:48:13and destroyed relationships
00:48:15and so
00:48:15and so what we find
00:48:17is that it has
00:48:18evolutionary benefits
00:48:20to the circumstances
00:48:22from a long time ago
00:48:23but in the modern
00:48:25modern era
00:48:26it's largely maladapted
00:48:28and that's characteristic
00:48:28of a lot of things
00:48:29that we see
00:48:30thanks for that question
00:48:31it's a great
00:48:31social science question
00:48:32James Wilday
00:48:33writes into the website
00:48:35on the Modern Wisdom podcast
00:48:37with Chris Williamson
00:48:38love Chris Williamson
00:48:39great podcast
00:48:40Modern Wisdom
00:48:41I go on it
00:48:42pretty frequently
00:48:43you're talking
00:48:44about the difference
00:48:45between totally virtual friends
00:48:46versus those you meet
00:48:48in person
00:48:48my question is
00:48:50oh that's a good question
00:48:51for today
00:48:51if we only have
00:48:53what is essentially
00:48:54a one-sided virtual relationship
00:48:56with God
00:48:56how do we reconcile that
00:48:58with him being real
00:49:00isn't he just a Facebook friend
00:49:02that's a really really good question
00:49:03and and the truth of the matter
00:49:05is that your faith
00:49:07is insufficient
00:49:08if it feels one-sided to you
00:49:10okay now there are
00:49:11no don't get me wrong
00:49:12there are days
00:49:13when I feel like
00:49:14I'm the only one talking
00:49:15in my prayer
00:49:16there are days
00:49:16that I feel like that
00:49:17and that has largely
00:49:18to do with emotions
00:49:19but it also has to do
00:49:21with the depth
00:49:22of my relationship
00:49:23with God
00:49:23the depth of my
00:49:24the sense of my communion
00:49:26with the divine
00:49:27and and that's one of the reasons
00:49:28that most religious traditions
00:49:30have something
00:49:31that's called
00:49:31listening prayer
00:49:32where you're not doing
00:49:33all the talking
00:49:34this has a meditative thing
00:49:36and you know
00:49:37the the eastern orthodox monks
00:49:38they pray the Jesus prayer
00:49:40which is a repetitive prayer
00:49:41that says
00:49:42Lord Jesus Christ
00:49:43son of the living God
00:49:43have mercy on me
00:49:44a sinner
00:49:45and they say it again
00:49:46and again and again
00:49:47a thousand times
00:49:48and they believe
00:49:48as they state this prayer
00:49:50they're not just babbling
00:49:51you know unilaterally to God
00:49:53they believe that they're opening
00:49:54a channel of communication
00:49:56to God
00:49:56and so learning
00:49:57more mystical techniques
00:49:58is the essence
00:50:00of what listening prayer
00:50:00is all about
00:50:01so James
00:50:01check that out
00:50:02think
00:50:03learn a little bit more
00:50:04about that
00:50:05I think you'll get
00:50:06a lot of benefit from it
00:50:06well that's enough
00:50:08for today
00:50:08I've gone on a long time
00:50:09I'm sorry that this has been
00:50:10a little bit longer
00:50:11but you can tell
00:50:12I love it
00:50:12and I'm going to do
00:50:13more episodes on this
00:50:14because I'm passionate
00:50:15about my own
00:50:16religious commitments
00:50:17but also about
00:50:18your spiritual journey
00:50:19which can be
00:50:19some of the best parts
00:50:20of your life
00:50:21so I hope you've enjoyed it
00:50:23please do share this
00:50:23with a friend or loved one
00:50:25if you find it interesting
00:50:26write in and tell us
00:50:27if you agree
00:50:28or if you disagree
00:50:29or anything else
00:50:30that you want me
00:50:30to be talking about
00:50:31because that's how
00:50:32we build our episodes
00:50:33at this point
00:50:34write in at office hours
00:50:35at arthurbrooks.com
00:50:36like and subscribe
00:50:37on Spotify
00:50:37YouTube and Apple
00:50:38leave a comment
00:50:39we'll read it
00:50:40follow me on Instagram
00:50:40LinkedIn
00:50:41all the other platforms
00:50:42and order
00:50:43The Meaning of Your Life
00:50:44my newest book
00:50:45to talk about
00:50:46many of these issues
00:50:47and more
00:50:48I'll see you next week
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