00:00:00What happened with this debate between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson?
00:00:04Did you see it?
00:00:04I didn't know that this happened.
00:00:06Oh, you didn't see it? Okay.
00:00:07Well, partly because I know them both and Scott's on our advisory board, as I mentioned.
00:00:12So Derek Thompson came back from paternity leave and it was actually the first thing he did
00:00:18was go on Scott Galloway's podcast.
00:00:19I think he said it's not just like the first day back, it's the first hour back.
00:00:22And he'd been, I think, on paternity leave for a couple of months.
00:00:26And that just triggered this debate where Scott said, "You're just back from paternity
00:00:31leave. How are you doing?"
00:00:33"Oh, I'm finding my way back.
00:00:34I won't be as coherent as usual."
00:00:35Of course, Derek was incredibly coherent.
00:00:37And Scott just said, "Well, honestly, I don't understand this whole paternity leave thing
00:00:42or even why men should go to the births.
00:00:43I don't think men should be at the births.
00:00:45It's disgusting.
00:00:46The men should be outside smoking cigarettes like the old days and then they should go back to work.
00:00:50I just think it's ridiculous, basically."
00:00:54And Derek was like, "Well, actually men do need to take time off to be with their kids
00:00:59because otherwise women are the only ones doing it and you'll have gender inequality in the workplace."
00:01:05Well, I found it interesting about that.
00:01:06I haven't said anything about this publicly yet, but I think you're both wrong.
00:01:12I think that Scott was wrong in suggesting that men and dads are of no use in the early months.
00:01:21They are of a different use to moms for sure, but they are very often the main allo parent now.
00:01:26They're very often the one that's around and they very often are the one that's getting stuff done.
00:01:31They're like, "Have you heard of the owl monkeys or the best dads in the natural world, apparently?"
00:01:36"No, owl monkeys."
00:01:38Where the dads are around all the time.
00:01:39And basically, moms are doing the breastfeeding and nurturing.
00:01:41Dads are doing everything else.
00:01:42Dad is getting shit done.
00:01:44He's getting the food.
00:01:45He's getting organized.
00:01:46He's around them, but he's still around them.
00:01:49That's kind of how it is, I think, that was certainly my experience.
00:01:52So you can't do what mom's doing at that point.
00:01:54You also don't feel the same way that mom does about the baby.
00:01:57You just can't, right?
00:01:57Just can't.
00:01:59You're not wired to at that point.
00:02:01And so you're still useful.
00:02:03So Scott was wrong about that.
00:02:06But I didn't like the way Derek framed this as like, "Men should take time off so that women aren't the only ones taking time off so that we can get close to gender pay gap."
00:02:15He framed it as a gender equity issue, right?
00:02:18And my view is dads should actually be able to take time off and should take time off their kids, not just when they're young, et cetera.
00:02:25Not because they can do what moms do, nor in support of gender equality, but because dads are awesome and kids are awesome and kids do really well with their dads around them, right?
00:02:36So I don't want to be the deputy, the kind of malfunctioning mom, the kind of, "Oh, if only you could be a mom."
00:02:41Like, no, no, dads are amazing.
00:02:42And so I'm really pushing this idea that kind of fell between those two stools.
00:02:48So like the old idea of like, dads just go back to work, smoke a cigar, have a cigar.
00:02:51I think you meant cigar actually, but have a cigar, a whiskey, back to work.
00:02:55And Derek Singer's like, "No, if you're a good gender egalitarian, you've got to take time off."
00:03:00Or even if you hate it and you suck at it, right?
00:03:01Because that's the way to get gender equality.
00:03:03I'm like, "Guys, guys, what about just saying dads are cool and being a dad and the way dads are with their kids is a bit different to moms on average?"
00:03:12In many ways, amazing.
00:03:15So I want like, again, a pro-dad argument rather than a gender equality argument for fathering.
00:03:21Should dads be in the birthing room?
00:03:23The evidence on actually interesting Darby Saxby, who I mentioned earlier, dad brain.
00:03:26She did write a response to this kind of thing, which people can find.
00:03:31And she can't rightly point it out that actually the evidence on how the unprecedented trial of dads being in the birthing room is going is really mixed.
00:03:41We don't know.
00:03:42And actually, kind of sometimes in surveys afterwards, like moms have mixed feelings about it.
00:03:45If the birth doesn't go well, I think you talk to Anna Machin about this, it can be quite traumatizing for the dad.
00:03:50So I think, look, I might get in trouble for saying this now, but I think we have to be honest, the evidence is a little bit mixed.
00:03:56And I think it shouldn't be like, it shouldn't be shamed for doing it or shamed for not doing it.
00:04:02And moms, by the way, should also feel like if they feel that they'll be better off with their mom or their friend or kind of somebody else, they should feel OK saying that to their partner.
00:04:12Too, for the actual birth.
00:04:13Neither are obliged to.
00:04:15Yeah, just sort of because as Darby points out, we've never done this before, right?
00:04:19This is completely unprecedented.
00:04:20How long have men been in the birthing room?
00:04:21Maybe about 30, 40 years.
00:04:23No way.
00:04:23I shared this with my wife.
00:04:25I said, this thing blew up.
00:04:27And she said, oh, Scott says that men shouldn't even be in the birthing room.
00:04:30She said, yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been.
00:04:34What?
00:04:35I said, what?
00:04:36It's like 25 years later.
00:04:38I thought, what?
00:04:39I thought it was really useful.
00:04:41What about all of my words of encouragement?
00:04:43You're more harm than good.
00:04:43You're more harm than good.
00:04:44I mean, I'm now sort of litigating something personal.
00:04:48We can just go back to it.
00:04:49But there are pros and cons.
00:04:50But I honestly think it's not--
00:04:52I mean, the real truth is it was a very hot day.
00:04:55And I'd ordered a fan because I knew it was going to be hot.
00:04:57But I didn't realize the fan wasn't made.
00:04:59So I opened the box.
00:05:00And she went into labor.
00:05:01She went into labor.
00:05:03She's in labor.
00:05:04She's in labor.
00:05:05And I'm shouting from the other room.
00:05:06I go into the other room, but she's having contractions.
00:05:09So we don't have a home, right?
00:05:11And I said, do you know where the Phillips screwdriver--
00:05:14[LAUGHTER]
00:05:17She says, I don't need a Phillips screwdriver
00:05:21to have a baby.
00:05:22I might know, but I need a Phillips screwdriver
00:05:24to make the fan.
00:05:25[LAUGHTER]
00:05:28I'm not great at DIY anyway, to be honest.
00:05:31So I said, do you know where it is?
00:05:32And she's like, I probably need to drop something.
00:05:35I'm in the other room.
00:05:36I'm trying-- I'm in this huge pressure now, right?
00:05:38But this is like--
00:05:39[LAUGHTER]
00:05:40Trying to make-- trying to make it.
00:05:43And she's like, forget the fucking fan.
00:05:45Just like, I'm having the baby.
00:05:47I'm having the baby.
00:05:48Fan or no fan, the baby's coming.
00:05:49I'm nearly done.
00:05:50I'm nearly done.
00:05:51I'm on like step seven with the Phillips screwdriver.
00:05:54So I wasn't amazing from that point of view.
00:05:57So I think that the fan thing, it
00:05:59jaundiced her about my view, to be honest.
00:06:03And then anyway, the other one, I'm all in now.
00:06:06The other one, I'd say, was in the birthing pool, right?
00:06:08Because I was very into that, in the birthing pool.
00:06:11And we'd been to one of these very--
00:06:14I don't know if I-- yeah, I think I can share this.
00:06:16It would be just very, very like progressive--
00:06:20Forward thinking.
00:06:21Like midwifey thing, right, about birthing at home.
00:06:24And if you have it in the pool, that's
00:06:25kind of great, which is good, by the way.
00:06:27I mean, I think the whole like overmedicalization
00:06:29of child birthing, like I'm really
00:06:32persuaded by that argument now.
00:06:33That actually doing it more naturally is really good.
00:06:34So I don't really misunderstood it.
00:06:36But in the pool.
00:06:37But she said, but guys, just can I just say something to you?
00:06:39She said, like it's quite--
00:06:40it can get quite murky in there.
00:06:42Can't see it all right, which is true.
00:06:44And she said, and so the only thing I'll say
00:06:46is if you get in the pool with your partner to support them,
00:06:50right, put something up.
00:06:51Put some swimming trunks on.
00:06:53She said, because there have been occasions when
00:06:55I've seen something spherical and hairy in the water.
00:07:00And I've assumed that it's the baby's head crowning.
00:07:03And I've gone in to help it.
00:07:04And it wasn't the baby's head crowning.
00:07:06It was the dad's testicle.
00:07:07And so I grabbed him by the bollocks, in session, right?
00:07:11And literally every guy in the room
00:07:12was like, hey, talk around, mate.
00:07:14Must buy a pair of speedo.
00:07:16So this is the other child, right?
00:07:18So this time, she's having a baby.
00:07:20She's like, I want you to get in and rub my back and do it.
00:07:21So I'm cool.
00:07:22I'm here for you, honey.
00:07:23And then I go into the other room.
00:07:24And then I'm shouting out, where are my swimming trunks?
00:07:26She's like, what are you talking about?
00:07:28I need my swimmers.
00:07:29And she's like, I don't know where they are.
00:07:31I can't find them.
00:07:32I'm slamming trunks open.
00:07:33And the midwife is like, for God's sake,
00:07:35she's having the baby.
00:07:36Get in the pool.
00:07:36I don't care.
00:07:37I don't care.
00:07:38I said, it's not about modesty.
00:07:39I said, the lady at the thing, the lady at the Lamaze class.
00:07:42She said, you've got to wear swimming trunks.
00:07:44I said, I'm not getting in there without swimming trunks.
00:07:46So anyway, so my main advice.
00:07:49And then I guess the other one, the other child's
00:07:51like, you get to cut the cord.
00:07:52And I was terrible at it.
00:07:53I couldn't cut it.
00:07:53I was hacking through it.
00:07:55I thought you'd have these massive shears, you know?
00:07:57Like opening up a new fucking city hall.
00:08:02It's a tiny little pair of scissors.
00:08:03And you're trying to hack through it.
00:08:04And it's really gristly.
00:08:05Took me ages.
00:08:06Near the end, the nurse started crying.
00:08:07And I'll do it.
00:08:07And to this day, my eldest son has got this really weird
00:08:09belly button.
00:08:10And he blames me for it.
00:08:11Because anyway, so all the fathers out there,
00:08:15key items if you are going to be with a Phillips fan driver
00:08:19or pre-make the fan or have a Phillips screwdriver,
00:08:22a really good pair of scissors.
00:08:23Because the ones that give you crap and swimming trunks.
00:08:26And then you'll be fine.
00:08:29Oh, God.
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00:09:46Congratulations, you made it to the end of a clip
00:09:49and the full length episode is available right here.
00:09:52Go on.