00:00:00talk me through your James Clear approach
00:00:04to the Brian Johnson's James Clear.
00:00:06- Okay, so actually I'll show you mine,
00:00:07but I wonder if this resonates or not with people,
00:00:10but I had this issue where at 7 p.m.
00:00:13I would overeat every night.
00:00:15- Yeah, evening eating for me is the only time,
00:00:18and no one ever overeats at breakfast.
00:00:20Oh yeah, it was just 9 a.m. and I gorged myself on Snickers.
00:00:23- Yeah, exactly.
00:00:24Yeah, like maybe like on a weekend brunch
00:00:26where you order pancakes and you're like, oh my God.
00:00:29- It's a one-off, yeah.
00:00:29That was a bad idea.
00:00:30I don't want to do that again.
00:00:31- Yeah, exactly, awful, yeah.
00:00:32So like your willpower goes down all day.
00:00:33It makes sense.
00:00:34Like 7 p.m., like you have stress, you're worn down.
00:00:36Like you just want to like, whatever.
00:00:38So that was my issue, I overeat at 7 p.m.
00:00:40And so I did it every day for years.
00:00:43And every night was the same battle, right?
00:00:44Like I'm not going to do it.
00:00:45I'm not going to do it.
00:00:46I do it.
00:00:47And then like, you know, the top button on my pants,
00:00:50I can't be buttoned up.
00:00:51And I'm like, fucking hate myself.
00:00:53Like this is so tight.
00:00:54I'm so uncomfortable.
00:00:55So I tried so many things to stop that and I couldn't.
00:00:58And so the one thing that I did is one day,
00:01:01I just kind of said in jest, "Evening Brian, you're fired."
00:01:06Like you, Brian, who occupied me from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m.,
00:01:11you're an unreliable thing.
00:01:14Like every day-
00:01:15- Steward.
00:01:16- Yeah, steward.
00:01:17Like you basically come up with these rationalizations
00:01:20like tonight's the last night.
00:01:22Tomorrow morning, we're going to exercise really hard.
00:01:24It's one bite.
00:01:25Like whatever your specific entry point is,
00:01:27you always convince me to do it.
00:01:30- You're a slippery motherfucker.
00:01:31- Exactly.
00:01:32And you basically make morning Brian miserable.
00:01:34You make dad Brian less good dad.
00:01:37Like ambitious Brian is hurting because of you.
00:01:39And so I said, "You're fired."
00:01:40And so that means from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m.,
00:01:43you do not have authority to eat food, no matter what.
00:01:48Like I don't care what's happening.
00:01:50You cannot eat food because you're so shifty.
00:01:53And so I just made that rule.
00:01:54And so I gave him a name, I wrote down his arguments.
00:01:56And so he would come into my mind and be like,
00:01:58"Hey, I'm here."
00:02:00And I'm like, "Hey, evening Brian, like how you doing, man?"
00:02:03- Fuck you.
00:02:03- Yeah, and like, oh, you're going to use
00:02:05the we're going to work out hard tomorrow morning argument.
00:02:07Or like tonight's the last night.
00:02:08Like I see you and I know what that is.
00:02:10And I've done this a hundred times.
00:02:12I've never in my entire life felt satisfied with myself
00:02:16after doing this ever.
00:02:17I've never felt proud of myself.
00:02:18I've never felt good.
00:02:19- Yeah, you're selling yourself a lie
00:02:21about how you're going to feel after doing this.
00:02:22- Exactly.
00:02:23And so, yeah, that was just, it was just a rule.
00:02:25And so I guess the rule is something like,
00:02:27none is better than some.
00:02:31That we do like to rationalize that,
00:02:34oh, just like every once in a while is fine.
00:02:37Moderation is a principle of life I want to play by.
00:02:39We have all these very clever catchphrases
00:02:42to justify our inability to actually do what we want.
00:02:46And so, yeah, that was a really clean hook for me.
00:02:48- That's cool.
00:02:49And the reason that I like it
00:02:50is because of this most recent iteration
00:02:53of the over-optimizing, can we not just fucking like,
00:02:57how lame, how like, you know,
00:02:59the stress of trying to be perfect
00:03:01is killing you more quickly than your imperfections.
00:03:03Moderation, man.
00:03:05And there is a kernel of truth in it.
00:03:07And this is why like a slower, more gentle approach to,
00:03:11I see you, I think there's something there.
00:03:13I see you, I think there's something there is,
00:03:16hey man, your focus on these habits
00:03:21is a kind of fragility
00:03:23and it is destroying the enjoyment of life
00:03:28by obsessing over how you live it, right?
00:03:31So I get the angle on that.
00:03:33The problem is that nobody scrutinizes
00:03:36the just live by vibes man approach
00:03:39with the same like level of resolution,
00:03:44because by design, they're living by fucking vibes
00:03:46so nothing's being tracked.
00:03:48But you've, I've never even thought of it before,
00:03:49but you've fucking nailed it,
00:03:50which is the, I just live by moderation, dude,
00:03:55is not living by moderation, it's living by extremis.
00:03:58Like you end up, the moderation, you put,
00:04:01I always use this example because I like biscuits, cookies.
00:04:04I like biscuits.
00:04:06If you tell me pack of Oreos, there's one outside,
00:04:09you can eat none of them or you can eat all of them.
00:04:10I'm like, done.
00:04:12- Exactly, right?
00:04:13- But you can eat two of them.
00:04:15- Yeah, exactly.
00:04:17- Fucking Superman.
00:04:18No, I can't eat two of them.
00:04:19No, if you give me a star, maybe, I don't know,
00:04:21maybe some people aren't like this.
00:04:22I'm a eat all of them or none of them kind of guy.
00:04:25So you're what on the surface, like first order
00:04:29looks like the very bureaucratic, dictatorial Nazi policy.
00:04:34Like how can you do this yourself?
00:04:36Like, ah, you're not balancing life.
00:04:38Like it would be much better if you just allowed yourself
00:04:40to treat like every so often.
00:04:41It's like, okay, show me how every so often
00:04:44your every so often is.
00:04:45- Yeah, exactly.
00:04:46- It's not that every so often.
00:04:47It's actually most of the time.
00:04:49- Yeah.
00:04:51- You know, I just, I'm a bit more flexible with my sleep.
00:04:53You know, sometimes I let myself sleep in.
00:04:55Sometimes I can give myself,
00:04:56I go to bed a little bit later.
00:04:57Like it's like, okay, just look at when you're going to bed.
00:05:01It just keeps on shifting later and later.
00:05:03And there is no trend over time.
00:05:05It's just, and sometimes it's getting wider.
00:05:08- Yeah.
00:05:09- So yeah, I think I've never thought of it before,
00:05:11but the everything in moderation is not done in moderation.
00:05:15- Exactly right.
00:05:16- Yeah, so this is like, again,
00:05:18mimetic moral philosophy of warfare.
00:05:20So the person who's arguing for moderation
00:05:23is attempting to take a drive towards health
00:05:28and make that low status
00:05:31and make their moderation high status.
00:05:33So this, if you look at the world through this lens,
00:05:36you realize everybody at all times
00:05:39is trying to take their position
00:05:41and they're like assessing the battlefield.
00:05:44And they're saying, anything that makes me feel low status,
00:05:47I'm going to invert
00:05:48and make that high status thing low status
00:05:50and my thing high status,
00:05:52because I inherently want to feel superior
00:05:54to people at all times.
00:05:56And that is like literally everything that's happening
00:05:59at any moment in society.
00:06:00- Ever.
00:06:01- It's just like humans want to feel superior in high status.
00:06:03- Okay, do you know the inner citadel idea by Isaiah Berlin?
00:06:08- I don't.
00:06:09- Allow me to teach you.
00:06:10I think this may be useful to you.
00:06:13Isaiah Berlin says,
00:06:15when the natural road to one human fulfillment is blocked,
00:06:17human beings retreat into themselves,
00:06:19become involved in themselves
00:06:20and try to create inwardly that world
00:06:23which some evil fate has denied them externally.
00:06:25If you cannot obtain from the world
00:06:27that which you really desire,
00:06:28you must teach yourself not to want it.
00:06:30If you cannot get what you want,
00:06:32you must teach yourself to want what you can get.
00:06:35This is a very frequent form of spiritual retreat in depth
00:06:38into a kind of inner citadel
00:06:40in which you try to lock yourself up
00:06:42against all the fearful ills of the world.
00:06:44And a different way to look at it is
00:06:45if your leg is wounded, you can try to treat the leg.
00:06:48And if you can't, then you cut off the leg
00:06:50and announce that the desire for legs is misguided
00:06:52to just be subdued.
00:06:53- That's right.
00:06:54That's right.
00:06:55Yeah, I mean, that's it.
00:06:56I mean, basically that's the exact articulation
00:06:58of what we've been discussing.
00:07:00Yeah, it's the medic and moral philosophy of warfare
00:07:02to feel superiority.
00:07:04- Because nobody wants to feel inferior.
00:07:05- Yeah.
00:07:06- You looked at Adlerian stuff much?
00:07:08- Yeah.
00:07:09- Yeah, and a lot of that is driven by this
00:07:11I can't be inferior.
00:07:13This is why getting into a relationship
00:07:15with too much of a power imbalance.
00:07:17One person is significantly busier than the other.
00:07:19One person is significantly better looking than the other.
00:07:21One person has significantly more attention than the other.
00:07:24The power imbalance is so great
00:07:27that unless the second person is happy
00:07:29to only ever sing harmony and never sing lead
00:07:31and is there like in service
00:07:33and the service becomes their reward.
00:07:36If you have two people,
00:07:37you can't have two people singing lead.
00:07:39Like one person has to sing harmony.
00:07:40And if you're lead singing and they're lead singing
00:07:43and there's this fucking way ahead or yours is way ahead,
00:07:45there's going to be tension.
00:07:46And I think about those bridges
00:07:51that you see during earthquakes
00:07:53and they sort of do this.
00:07:55They like flex like that.
00:07:57And I think about that kind of visual.
00:07:59It's this sort of flexing intention.
00:08:01It's not even necessarily a pulling apart.
00:08:03It's I'm going this way and you're going that way
00:08:05and yeah, exactly right.
00:08:08- Yeah, I mean, 100% like what is society?
00:08:11I mean, I guess like there's two macro games
00:08:12happening in society.
00:08:14Like in that tension is what is high status?
00:08:17And then within that game of who is high status?
00:08:22Right, that's it.
00:08:25And then you've got everyone else playing
00:08:27to try to take the high status, make it low status.
00:08:29But like right now the highest status game is wealth.
00:08:34Right, capitalism.
00:08:36It just came from Adam Smith, a couple hundred years ago.
00:08:38I'm saying like, we look at-
00:08:39- Is the highest status game raw wealth?
00:08:41What about a renowned popularity recognition?
00:08:46Because you look at somebody who already has lots of wealth
00:08:50and a lot of the time they continue to pursue status.
00:08:53I spoke about this with Naval and his,
00:08:57I think this is true.
00:08:58You're interested to get your perspective.
00:09:00Money is evolutionarily novel and yet it's a proxy for status
00:09:04and it gives you things that status can't.
00:09:06But we should have raw status for statuses sake,
00:09:10prestige, dominance, access, it's like a recognition.
00:09:14That should be more deeply rooted
00:09:16and therefore less easy to satiate than money.
00:09:20'Cause money is more novel and money is not direct access
00:09:23to the thing that you need, right?
00:09:25Money without status can make you live
00:09:28and status without money can make you fucking miserable
00:09:29and kind of on the street in a way.
00:09:31But it seems like people who get lots of status
00:09:36rarely continue to pursue money.
00:09:38Whereas people who get the fucking infinity money
00:09:41do always continue to pursue status.
00:09:43Do you see an asymmetry here?
00:09:44I'm interested with your perspective on money and status.
00:09:46- Absolutely right.
00:09:47I mean, I think basically, I think that's correct.
00:09:50I think money has more raw power.
00:09:55Just from a- - Transactional.
00:09:58- Just raw power.
00:09:59Like the ability to do things in the world,
00:10:03to move the world, money is, in this current context.
00:10:08Now behind that, so again, I can remember two games.
00:10:10One is what is high status?
00:10:12And then two is who's winning within status?
00:10:15And so my comment on money is that that is within context
00:10:19of that as high status.
00:10:21But if you look at broader status of what is high status,
00:10:24right, like religion has played status, right?
00:10:27Like you look at Christianity where Jesus is like,
00:10:29look guys, I've got a new status game for you.
00:10:33And it's not what you're being told.
00:10:36Like I'm gonna tell you a whole new rule set.
00:10:38And so any religion's done that.
00:10:40And so this is the game I'm trying to play.
00:10:42I'm trying to basically say like right now,
00:10:44capitalism is status.
00:10:47Like it is, if we said like, this is the thing.
00:10:49And I'm trying to say, this is the thing that might lead us
00:10:54to make a terrible error in judgment on what we do
00:10:57in this moment.
00:10:59And that the flip is existence itself is high status.
00:11:04- Interesting.
00:11:06- And never to the exchange of anything else.
00:11:08It is never worth trading existence for anything else,
00:11:12wealth, power, or status.
00:11:14Existence itself is the highest virtue.
00:11:17- Yeah, I do understand.
00:11:20And I think what I like is that you are not trying
00:11:23to append the game of status itself.
00:11:26- Yeah.
00:11:27- That's locked in.
00:11:28- Yeah, 100%.
00:11:29- It's like saying, well, you know,
00:11:31rather than trying to work out a more efficient rocket
00:11:34to get us off this launch pad, we can just defeat gravity.
00:11:36And you go, no.
00:11:37- Yeah.
00:11:38- There are physics within the system.
00:11:40And one of the physics is, one of the physical laws is status.
00:11:43- Yeah, so really the master game in society,
00:11:46like the ultimate game is determining what is status.
00:11:50Like what is high status?
00:11:51And then of course you have billions and billions of humans
00:11:54who will play within the game.
00:11:55They'll just be like, oh, this is the game,
00:11:57the function and the reward system, like I'm playing.
00:11:59They won't think about it.
00:12:00They don't realize that the game's been set up for them.
00:12:03They'll just play it.
00:12:04- That's interesting.
00:12:04Yeah, so rather than trying to convince people
00:12:08not to play the game,
00:12:09you just change what the game is pointing at.
00:12:11- Exactly, and they'll play it.
00:12:12They'll play the same fundamentals
00:12:13they'll apply to the new game.
00:12:14So when you say existence is the highest virtue,
00:12:17that the same human behaviors that are stamped out
00:12:19throughout time, same archetypes, same players,
00:12:22same stuff, every single time, just get the game right.
00:12:25And that's what I'm saying.
00:12:26Like if this moment is so simple,
00:12:28just get the objective function correct.
00:12:31- It's like a, I don't know, some sort of judo throw
00:12:34that uses your opponent's momentum against them.
00:12:36- Yeah, exactly.
00:12:36- So to speak.
00:12:37- Yeah, that's right, that's right.
00:12:39- In other news, if you're feeling tired,
00:12:41you might not need more sleep.
00:12:42You might not need more caffeine.
00:12:43You might just be dehydrated.
00:12:44And proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water.
00:12:48It's about having sufficient electrolytes to allow your body
00:12:50to properly absorb those fluids.
00:12:52Element contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio.
00:12:54Sodium, potassium, and magnesium with no color, no sugar,
00:12:57no artificial ingredients, or any other BS.
00:12:59It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps
00:13:01and fatigue.
00:13:02It optimizes brain health, regulates your appetite,
00:13:05helps curb cravings.
00:13:06And that's why it's used by everyone,
00:13:07from Dr. Andrew Huberman to Olympic athletes
00:13:09and FBI sniper teams.
00:13:11This lemon.
00:13:17Lemonade flavor, Nicole glass of water,
00:13:20is how I've started my morning every single week for years.
00:13:24They've got no questions asked refund policy,
00:13:26so you can return it
00:13:28and they won't even ask you to send the box back.
00:13:30Plus you can get a free sample pack
00:13:31of their favorite flavors with your first purchase
00:13:33by going to the link in the description below
00:13:35or heading to drinkelement.com/modernwisdom.
00:13:38There's no code.
00:13:46I usually care about the box more than that.
00:13:48drinkelement.com/modernwisdom.
00:13:50Thank you very much for tuning in.
00:13:53If you enjoyed that clip, the full episode
00:13:55in all of its glory.
00:13:56Waiting for you.
00:13:59Right here.
00:14:00Go on, press it.