00:00:00Sorry to report I have a new boner record.
00:00:03Three hours, forty-nine minutes.
00:00:04The fellowship of the ring is three hours, forty-eight minutes.
00:00:08Is that a good thing?
00:00:12I mean, I guess.
00:00:15From whose perspective?
00:00:16Pick.
00:00:17Yeah, your perspective?
00:00:19Is it good for you?
00:00:20Yeah.
00:00:21I mean, yeah.
00:00:22It's substantially better than an elite eighteen-year-old.
00:00:26What would an elite boner eighteen-year-old be?
00:00:29Two hours and forty-five minutes-ish.
00:00:31What refers to elite?
00:00:32Like vasodilation?
00:00:33Yeah, like take an eighteen-year-old in peak condition.
00:00:38Okay.
00:00:39And let's say, what would their nighttime reactions be?
00:00:41They'd probably hover somewhere around like high to nearly three hours.
00:00:46That'd be elite level.
00:00:47And so it just crushes that level.
00:00:49So yeah, I mean from a pure biological capacity, yeah, it's pretty good.
00:00:55Okay.
00:00:56What were you doing with it?
00:00:58Three hours and forty-nine minutes.
00:01:00So this is, it's kind of like it's news to people as I've been sharing this, that I mean
00:01:05people, men are generally familiar with the idea that when you are twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
00:01:10you start having boners, and they happen a lot.
00:01:13You know, like in class, you don't even ask for it.
00:01:17Gust of wind.
00:01:18Yeah, gust of wind.
00:01:19Literally anything, and you can't do anything about it.
00:01:21Like, do you remember, like I would walk in between classes and it's like, you got a boner.
00:01:25Where's it going to go?
00:01:26Where's it going to go?
00:01:27Tuck it into the waistband.
00:01:28And then you pull it up.
00:01:29You exactly put a little book cover in front of it, but like, you can't control it.
00:01:32You can't really stop it.
00:01:34And then as you age, those things naturally go down.
00:01:36So people kind of forget about it as a phenomenon.
00:01:38But men and women have arousal cycles every night, three to five erections every night.
00:01:43Men get erect.
00:01:44Women have their clitoris engorged.
00:01:45And so it's this natural process.
00:01:47The body says, like, I want to keep my sexual function alive and vibrant, and I pulse it
00:01:51every night.
00:01:52So it depends upon your quality of sleep, your metabolic health, your cardiovascular health,
00:01:59your physiological health, and your hormone health.
00:02:01And so if those things are not in place, it doesn't happen.
00:02:05And so if someone's bragging about four hours of sleep at night and like, they feel fine,
00:02:09they're doing great, they have no boners.
00:02:11And so this is…
00:02:13You might have survived with the sleep, but your erection wasn't there.
00:02:15This is why I started talking about these things.
00:02:17We were like measuring a whole bunch of stuff, but I was really, right now, sleep deprivation
00:02:22is high status, right?
00:02:24If you can basically flex and say, I only sleep four hours a night.
00:02:27I'm amazing.
00:02:28I work 18 hours a day.
00:02:29People are like, oh my God, what an amazing person.
00:02:32We admire you so much.
00:02:34And so it has this really weird high status.
00:02:37So this frame of the boners makes sleep deprivation low status, right?
00:02:42It's like, sure, you can brag about that thing, but also your body has shut down its sexual
00:02:49function and you can no longer get boners.
00:02:52And so it's really like, that was one angle.
00:02:53The other one is like the erections really are one of the most representative biomarkers
00:02:59of overall health that you can have big muscles and you can have great skin, but if your boners
00:03:04are not there, then you know, it's not, your body's not in good shape.
00:03:08Are you saying that nighttime erections are like the weather vane or the canary in the
00:03:13coal mine that's an aggregate of a ton of other shit that's going on?
00:03:17Exactly right.
00:03:18Yeah.
00:03:19It basically is a representative marker and you can't do anything about it.
00:03:20You can't, you can't go to the gym and like work out your boners, right?
00:03:23You can't pump iron.
00:03:25You go to sleep, it either happens or it doesn't, you have no control over it.
00:03:28So it's this really great marker.
00:03:29But what you mean is you have no control over making it happen at the time, but you do have
00:03:35control over your health, which is going to be indicative of whether or not that does happen
00:03:39in future.
00:03:40You could go to the gym and do a ton of zone two, which I imagine improves cardiovascular
00:03:43health and then make us more boners.
00:03:46Exactly right.
00:03:47Yeah.
00:03:48And then you go down and you close your eyes, it's just like, you say a prayer, it's like,
00:03:51I hope they happen.
00:03:52You can think of Lord of rings all of you want, but it's not going to happen.
00:03:55It's not going to happen.
00:03:56The company that does this, that makes this device, they've got a 20,000 nights dataset
00:04:04and my scores just like trounce everybody in the dataset.
00:04:08Okay.
00:04:09And so we've worked very hard.
00:04:10Is that the thing you're most proud of?
00:04:11You know, it really is.
00:04:12I know it's like a, in our society, people hear that and they blush like, oh my God, that's
00:04:17so, you know, like, why are you talking about that?
00:04:19But like, it's like a biological function.
00:04:22Everybody has them, like we as a species, our primary biological objective is to reproduce.
00:04:27It's like, it's on point with what our DNA is meant to do.
00:04:32And it also is like the most counter culture thing you can be doing because we have this
00:04:38culture that has high status relative to sleep deprivation and having a shitty lifestyle,
00:04:43drinking a lot, um, doing addictive things, nicotine, vaping.
00:04:48So it really is like counter to all those things to trying to say, those are actually
00:04:53low status.
00:04:54This is high status.
00:04:55Let's try to change the moral narrative on like, what do you aspire to and what really
00:04:58is a flex?
00:05:00Great point.
00:05:01Um, it's a weird, trades like that.
00:05:04I think most people understand, uh, if you're smoking, particularly cigarettes, uh, if you're
00:05:09drinking very regularly, uh, if you were overweight.
00:05:13Yeah.
00:05:14These are, um, there are visual markers right now that also suggest you're probably going
00:05:22to be pretty fucked down the line.
00:05:23Yeah.
00:05:24Sleep deprivation is one of these weird inversions of that, where you're rewarded for the sleep
00:05:29deprivation in the moment and the costs are pushed further down the line.
00:05:33Uh, I guess it would be like, um, a birth rate decline.
00:05:37Like you don't see it because the population can be getting bigger even while the birth
00:05:41rate is getting smaller because people live longer.
00:05:43And then this thing drops off a cliff or a climate change, you can continue to do it and
00:05:49continue to do it and continue to do it until you reach some point where you can no longer
00:05:52handle it.
00:05:53It's like going bankrupt gradually and then suddenly suddenly.
00:05:55Yeah.
00:05:56And you're, you're right to call out the fact that there's this sort of pedestalization of
00:06:00it.
00:06:01I think about, um, especially watching you, who is now the tip of the spear of sort of
00:06:04like, you're the canonical example in basically no time at all.
00:06:08You know, it would have been back in the day, like a Ben Greenfield and then it would have
00:06:11been a Tierra Huberman and I guess these guys all have their own pockets, right?
00:06:17Your like hard longevity now moving into culture with like, um, limited balance on, I'm just
00:06:25doing what it takes to be as healthy as possible.
00:06:27Yeah.
00:06:28Um, anyway, everyone's got their own little pockets.
00:06:30You've become the canonical example.
00:06:32What I've seen is this sort of, the spiral is getting tighter and tighter and tighter
00:06:37of movement, counter movement, counter, counter movement, counter, counter, counter, so, um,
00:06:45we don't know that sleep's important.
00:06:47Matthew Walker comes out and says, you should watch how much you sleep.
00:06:50That was the first time I ever learned about it.
00:06:52Right.
00:06:53And I think we'd be right to say he was close to the sort of front modern push of that.
00:06:57Then that lasts for a good while.
00:06:59And we get back to, well, you know, like the Cussel and Grime culture can come back in and
00:07:04take over and then you get back to, no, this is really, really, really fucking important
00:07:08and it'll improve your performance right now.
00:07:10And now we've already gone back to like the next iteration of the hustle and grind culture,
00:07:14which is much more of a pushback against over-optimization.
00:07:18So there was, this is important.
00:07:20Fuck off.
00:07:21No, it's not hustle and grind.
00:07:23You will perform better if you do sleep well.
00:07:25And also you should consider your sleep, which is an elevated version of the first one.
00:07:30Fuck off.
00:07:31You're over-optimizing.
00:07:32Like we can just do it ourselves.
00:07:33Do you know what I mean?
00:07:34Like this ping pong that gets tighter and tighter and tighter.
00:07:37Yeah.
00:07:38It's like also, I mean, I'm waging a medic warfare, right?
00:07:41And so like, this is the classical thing that has always been done throughout history is
00:07:46you take a given moral value in society.
00:07:50If you don't like that, that thing has power, you invert it, right?
00:07:54So this is like Christianity would say the meek inherit the earth, right?
00:07:59So this is like a counter to the rich and powerful have the ability to push everyone
00:08:03around and do as they please.
00:08:06And so you can't really combat that.
00:08:08So if you can't compete on strength, you compete on virtue.
00:08:11So you invert that, right?
00:08:13And so this has been done through religions.
00:08:14It's been done through all kinds of cultural norms.
00:08:17And so this is, I'm trying to basically do the same thing to death culture.
00:08:22And so death culture is, you know, we, power, wealth, and status are the primary objectives
00:08:27of our society.
00:08:29We will do anything for power, wealth, and status, including killing ourselves.
00:08:34And killing yourself for power, wealth, and status is actually a virtue, right?
00:08:37Like you're a hero, you're on the hero's journey if you do this thing.
00:08:41And so to combat that, you have to take that, which is high status, and make it low status.
00:08:46And so the way you punch away at that is you do the thing where it's like, if you get four
00:08:50hours of sleep at night, you have no boners, right?
00:08:52If you don't have a boner, are you a man, right?
00:08:55And the same thing is true for women, you know, like same cycle.
00:08:57Then you could also say, you know, if you're not well rested, if you don't have good nourishment,
00:09:01if you're not exercising, you have functional IQ, 10 to 12 points lower.
00:09:06Nearly a full standard deviation.
00:09:08So it's actually making you dumb, right?
00:09:10And they're like, what do people care about more in that high status place than their intellect,
00:09:15right?
00:09:16Their ability to actually...
00:09:17Maybe only after that would be their erections.
00:09:18Yeah, exactly.
00:09:19I mean, it's so primal, it's like, how smart am I, and how sexually formidable am I as a
00:09:28person, right?
00:09:29That's who we are as these animals.
00:09:31And so I'm trying to take those high status things, bump them down to low status, and invert
00:09:35the arc.
00:09:36Because otherwise, when you make these like good natured, like sleep because it's good
00:09:44for you, no one gives a fuck.
00:09:45You have to hit the heart of power, because unless you speak to power walls and status
00:09:49directly, nobody's going to change anything because they're locked in on the goal they've
00:09:53been taught to pursue.
00:09:54Which is like, I care about my status in the tribe, I don't want to be ostracized, I want
00:09:57a high status, I want high respect, I want high power, as much as I can get.
00:10:01Which is... talk to me about power, wealth, and status.
00:10:05Is there a hierarchy to you?
00:10:06Is there one which is more seductive than the rest?
00:10:09Is there a sequence that people seem to move through on that evolution to wipe themselves,
00:10:15rid themselves of the slime?
00:10:16>> Yeah, I mean, you can just jump in between groups and just see it so clean.
00:10:20Like for example, I spent some time in DC recently.
00:10:25They're not after wealth.
00:10:26I mean, you can get wealthy being in DC, but that's not the primary objective.
00:10:29You're really after connections and power and status from that community.
00:10:34Whereas in Silicon Valley, it's really about wealth creation.
00:10:38That's like the ultimate objective.
00:10:40And so different communities have different levers.
00:10:42I'm impartial to whatever they are, like ultimately people are trying to... people playing this
00:10:48game are trying to superimpose their view on the world, right?
00:10:52They're trying to muscle in and reorganize the world to somehow be trained by their mental
00:10:59models of existence.
00:11:00And whether that's done through a product or their philosophy or their presence or their
00:11:04personality, but everyone's trying to wrestle like their memetic essence onto the world.
00:11:10>> What do you make of the Harvard longevity study?
00:11:18I'm sure that you've become familiar with this.
00:11:20The world's longest running study on adult life and happiness, and it does have some sort
00:11:26of longevity life span, health span predictions in there.
00:11:32Given that that's been going already for such a long time and has had a huge data set, right?
00:11:39I think it's like 80,000, maybe even more.
00:11:42What's your perspective on that, given what you're interested in?
00:11:45>> Yeah, I mean, there's probably some truisms on like humans respond favorably to having
00:11:50robust relationships.
00:11:52That's true long ago, it's true now.
00:11:55Humans respond favorably to exercise.
00:11:56There's a lot of truisms, like we know this shit's really the case, but I think it's like
00:12:01what may be interesting about this is that is a good retrospective study.
00:12:06I'm not sure all of it's going to carry over into the future.
00:12:09So in the coming years, if we figure out some of these new therapies to rejuvenate ourselves
00:12:14in ways we couldn't before, it may be an entirely different environment in which we look at long
00:12:19lived species.
00:12:20And it may be less about those things and more about other things.
00:12:23Now, this is not to say that relationships are going away.
00:12:25It's not to say that fundamentals of being active are going away.
00:12:29But I do think we're at a moment in time where if you have that study going on and we were
00:12:33talking in the 1960s, we'd be like, "Yep, good data.
00:12:36Let's carry on."
00:12:37But being in 2025 where AI is now starting to make novel discoveries, I think the landscape's
00:12:42going to be very different.
00:12:44What are the specific differences that are going to have the most lever behind them?
00:12:49There's an open question, like what is AI in our lives?
00:12:52Is AI a relationship or not?
00:12:54Do we have human relationships?
00:12:55What are the contours of those things?
00:12:58What do longevity therapies do for us if we start playing around with gene therapies?
00:13:01What does it also mean?
00:13:02For example, you look at Ozempic, these GLP-1s, you take a shot.
00:13:06It alters your experience with hunger.
00:13:09Like it changes a fundamental part of being human.
00:13:13And so if we have the ability to change something so fundamental to our essence and we get really
00:13:18good at drug design, what else are we going to change?
00:13:20So I'm talking about this on like a 10, 15, 20-year time scale.
00:13:23This is not like next two or three years, but still we are in this open frontier where there
00:13:29may be some things that continue as universalisms that just as a biological species, they're
00:13:35true.
00:13:36It's like a radical change and I'm more interested in like what is going to be different than
00:13:40what has been.
00:13:42Yeah.
00:13:43Morgan Housel's book, Same as Ever, is an interesting one that people try to predict the future.
00:13:48But what is easier is to work out the stuff that's not going to change moving forward because
00:13:53the future is as yet undetermined, but working out what from the past can be predictive.
00:13:57It's quite nice.
00:13:59There is this sense, right?
00:14:01Everybody's had the sense that our generation, we are the one.
00:14:04It's the inflection point, it's the precipice.
00:14:07It's right now, it's always right now.
00:14:09Because it always does feel like that, right?
00:14:10If you look at a hockey curve, that graph at each point, it was the highest, most rapidly
00:14:16ascending, biggest, quickest moving point ever.
00:14:19And then you just pull it along a little bit and then it zooms out and you go, oh, that
00:14:23was nothing.
00:14:24But now, now, and then you zoom out and you go, but now.
00:14:28Sure.
00:14:29Yeah.
00:14:30I just finished 1929 about the stock market crash, also tripping on utopia and also a history
00:14:38of Western thought.
00:14:39I finished those three books last week.
00:14:41And the theme that comes through is that humans replay the same actual play every generation.
00:14:51It's the same cast of characters, it's the same archetypes, it's the same arguments, and
00:14:56they just roll through different ideological spaces, but it's the same dynamics.
00:15:02And so we experienced this moment, like you're saying, we think it's novel and unique and
00:15:06we imagine we're something that's pivotal, but really it's just the same thing.
00:15:11It's really very humbling because then it goes back to how much of your lived experience is
00:15:16NPC and how much is truly novel.
00:15:19And I have to concede probably 99% of my lived experience is NPC, I probably have one shot
00:15:27at a novel thought or it's just the state of play and it's very hard to get outside of
00:15:32that.
00:15:33But once you realize that it's somehow relieving that that's the case, but also challenging.
00:15:37So you have to figure out how do I pull myself out and try to find moments of sobriety to
00:15:41see what this moment is.
00:15:43Yeah.
00:15:44And speaking of the Christian piece, the meek, the sort of humility, you're less special than
00:15:49you think you are.
00:15:51It's grounding in that way.
00:15:52I don't think British people need more of that.
00:15:54Maybe Americans do.
00:15:55God, I love the Brits.
00:15:56I love how honoree they are and brutally honest and acrimonious and I find those personality
00:16:09traits to be so charming.
00:16:11Well, I think everybody misses what they don't have, right?
00:16:16Americans would probably quite like a little bit more piss-taking and being brought back
00:16:21down to earth and British people want a little bit more enthusiasm and encouragement.
00:16:26That's why I came over here and I was like, oh my God, it's like being, you know, taking
00:16:29a drink and not knowing I was thirsty, I was so nourished by this.
00:16:32And then for you, it's like, I've always wanted someone to tell me I'm a prick.
00:16:35Like, you know, finally these people will say it to me straight.
00:16:40I'm interested, you know, sort of relating to the Harvard longevity thing.
00:16:44From the outside, a lot of what you're focused on seems to be kind of the raw physiological,
00:16:51but there's a huge emotional piece to longevity, regardless of how much AI is going to change
00:16:56things.
00:16:57Yeah.
00:16:58And some of that will manifest in like sympathetic stress, chronic stress, blood pressure, sleep,
00:17:05blah, blah, blah.
00:17:07More than that as well is what is your moment to moment experience of life like too.
00:17:12So I'm interested in how you are thinking about the emotional and spiritual piece of
00:17:19longevity and health when you've got all of this focus on the physical piece.
00:17:25So are you, are you, and how are you looking at the, at those two elements?
00:17:29Do you even conceive of them within your map framework?
00:17:32Yeah.
00:17:33I mean, first I don't really feel emotions, so no, just joking.
00:17:36I mean, people that, so the, that's a very common perspective.
00:17:41What people don't realize is that the entirety of my endeavor is, um, is about AI and how
00:17:50we as a human race survive this moment.
00:17:52Like full stop.
00:17:53That is the only reason I'm doing this.
00:17:55Was it like that when you first started?
00:17:57Yes.
00:17:58Really?
00:17:59So you saw the writing on the wall with regards to AI before normies like me did.
00:18:02In 2016, I, I gave this talk and I was like, look, if we look at this graph, very clear,
00:18:09it's up and to the right.
00:18:11And it's big.
00:18:12What was the graph?
00:18:13AI.
00:18:14Right.
00:18:15Whatever it is, it's going to be big.
00:18:17And so I didn't care to get into prediction game of like what, when it's going to arrive
00:18:21and what it's going to be and all that, just that this is a moment.
00:18:24And I was trying to poke around, like given this, uh, it, it really does feel like this
00:18:31is like very much like a feeling to intuition.
00:18:33It feels big and it feels consequential.
00:18:36And it feels like we probably want to be sober to get this thing right.
00:18:40And so what I've been trying to do more than anything is to say, we need a new moral philosophy
00:18:47that enables us to survive this moment.
00:18:49That basically the philosophy we have now that drives everything is, is one built on death.
00:18:55We are inherently a die species.
00:18:57We seek death for the glory of immortality through our various games.
00:19:02And the new moral philosophy I'm trying to create is don't die.
00:19:04That is like when you give birth to superintelligence, existence itself is the highest virtue.
00:19:10And so the back to this book of the history of Western thought, Plato, Aristotle, uh, medieval
00:19:15uh, Christianity, medieval times, Renaissance, enlightenment, modern day scientific era, like
00:19:20big chunks of time for these big ideologies.
00:19:23They're due for a brand new moral philosophy and it will be induced by AI.
00:19:29And so it, the opening is right now, and it's not just like some small tweak.
00:19:35It's a really big opening and that's what I'm really angling for.
00:19:39And so health is a vector to basically talk about it, to say like, here's how you understand
00:19:43philosophy through these very practical actions, but that's really what I'm trying to do.
00:19:48And so above all, it's a health is a, is a language to communicate a new moral philosophy
00:19:54on what we do as a species in this moment.
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00:20:50That's livemomentous.com/modernwisdom.
00:20:54Yeah, I've got a miniature essay from you.
00:21:05People confused by me and my intentions.
00:21:07I'm called a narcissist, tech bro, vampire, grifter, and health freak.
00:21:11Let me be clear about what I'm doing.
00:21:12My goal is to build the world's next major moral framework and ideology that bridges human
00:21:17and machine biology and intelligence, the ancient and the emergent, the coming psychosis real
00:21:23possibility in the coming years is that society becomes dangerously psychotic.
00:21:27Yes, we are already psychotic, addicted, fragmented, and self-destructive, but I mean clinically
00:21:32psychotic and on a civilizational scale, we are already showing precursor symptoms, record
00:21:37antidepressant use, rising suicide rates, rampant addiction, and global increases in loneliness
00:21:42and anxiety disorders.
00:21:43These are all biomarkers of a species whose cognitive environment has outpaced its biology.
00:21:49Human cognition evolved under conditions of slow change.
00:21:52Our nervous systems and social architectures were shaped for a world that changed near imperceptibly
00:21:57over millennia.
00:21:58When things change faster than our native capacity, we lose coherence.
00:22:01The hippocampus binds the present to memory and the prefrontal cortex constructs a coherent
00:22:06future.
00:22:07Does that mean?
00:22:09Yeah.
00:22:11It means that we are going to struggle to keep up and it's going to be so unnerving to us
00:22:19that things might get chaotic and psychotic and it might just have the bottom drop out.
00:22:27For example, when I was reading this book, 1929, about the stock market crash, the focus
00:22:34was financial gain.
00:22:35Invest in the stock market, get credit to invest more, leverage yourself up.
00:22:40And then when that burst, it created all kinds of destruction in the economy and it took us
00:22:44a long time to recover from that.
00:22:46I think the equivalent right now would be hope, that you have hope for the future.
00:22:52You have imaginations of what you want to be and become, what you want to achieve.
00:22:56Everyone has that.
00:22:57And as society progresses, when AI starts doing various things, it's not that they're bad.
00:23:02It's just that change happens and that creates uncertainty for humans.
00:23:07What am I going to do?
00:23:08Who am I?
00:23:09What's my identity?
00:23:10And all these basic questions, if we can't answer those as fast as people feel insecure
00:23:14about it, then you kind of teeter on the psychosis where like, can you keep your shit together?
00:23:20And so people focus a lot on AI.
00:23:23Is AI a threat?
00:23:24Should we pause it?
00:23:25All these different questions.
00:23:27There's an equal and opposite concern of what happens to human society when all this change
00:23:33is happening so quickly and we can't respond fast enough.
00:23:38Is the bottom falling out the real risk of, you know, then humans do human stuff, right?
00:23:44What's the bottom falling out in this scenario?
00:23:47It's the sturdiness of law and order, of hope that my son, my 20-year-old son, he can go
00:23:55to school.
00:23:56He can get a degree.
00:23:58He can get a job.
00:23:59He can make money.
00:24:00He can find his own apartment.
00:24:01He can get married.
00:24:02You know, if he wants to have kids, like the natural life progression, if he can't quite
00:24:07see that structure anymore, who is he?
00:24:09Or you take like my dad who's like, now he's already 70s.
00:24:12He's on the other side.
00:24:13He's in the legal profession.
00:24:15The tools are getting so good, like he just can't hang.
00:24:17Like it's hard for him to hang.
00:24:20And he's like, what do I do?
00:24:21Like I'm now out of the game and I don't feel any worse.
00:24:24Like I don't have any identities.
00:24:25He's really, really struggling.
00:24:26And so you take any person at any stage in their life, you've got really serious existential
00:24:30challenges.
00:24:31And this is not guaranteed.
00:24:32It's just as like a thought experiment of like, what could happen?
00:24:36And so what don't die could be is like this sturdiness beneath us to say it's okay.
00:24:43Like our identities are not tied up in our profession.
00:24:46They're not tied up in our status in the community.
00:24:49It's like actually tied up by this virtue of existence that we're going to fight this new
00:24:54game as a species that don't die.
00:24:56And so it's trying to create sturdiness of identity, sturdiness of community, sturdiness
00:25:00of like, we've got this.
00:25:01We have a purpose.
00:25:02We have a mission.
00:25:03We're here for a reason.
00:25:04Like if the mission of being alive is simply mortality, does that not drop down much of
00:25:11the complexity that people find beauty in?
00:25:13It's like simply being alive.
00:25:15Like there's two parts to this that I see in my mind.
00:25:18One is one, which is very whole.
00:25:20It's about enoughness.
00:25:21It's about being okay as you are.
00:25:24But that's not how humans are wired.
00:25:26You know, there's like power, status, money, like we are going to try.
00:25:33And even if it's just, I play pickleball on a week weekend with my friends, I want to become
00:25:37better at pickleball next week.
00:25:38If I'm not better at pickleball, there is this sense of lack that comes through.
00:25:42But on one side there is sort of enoughness.
00:25:46But when you get down to a more sort of raw objective ledger, like your job is to be alive
00:25:54tomorrow.
00:25:55It's like, fucking hell, really?
00:25:58Like maybe if we were in a time of war or there was a lot of pressure or there's a pandemic,
00:26:03ooh, that'll imbue me because there's resistance, but like, really?
00:26:07Like the peak of my contribution is to not expire by tomorrow permanently until it does
00:26:14happen.
00:26:15Do you understand what I mean?
00:26:16I do.
00:26:17How inspiring is that as a vision versus...
00:26:18Yeah.
00:26:19I mean, so to make a parallel example, think of capitalism as an objective function.
00:26:24So you say making money is your goal, right?
00:26:27When you wake up, that's what you do.
00:26:29And now you see the entire world is engaged in that goal in some capacity.
00:26:35Everyone.
00:26:36Don't die is a similar game where you say our goal as a species is to end death, not just
00:26:43for ourselves, for us collectively and the planet.
00:26:46And so you're basically taking on the biggest challenge you could ever take on in this part
00:26:51of the universe.
00:26:52You're trying to solve for entropy.
00:26:53Like, let's just like list out a few things we could work on.
00:26:57How would you go about building a global biological immune system?
00:27:02So let's say we say a pandemic like COVID is not good for us.
00:27:06Like, we don't want those anymore.
00:27:07We don't want the plague.
00:27:08We don't want somebody in a lab, you know, cooking up smallpox again.
00:27:12Great.
00:27:13So how could we build out a global biological immune system where we have sensors around
00:27:17the world where it automatically detects any kind of pathogen that is threatening to our
00:27:22life?
00:27:23That's a pretty cool scientific project.
00:27:24So let's say we care about the oceans and the ocean health and the coral reef is burning
00:27:28up right now.
00:27:29That's bad for an environment.
00:27:31How do we stop that from happening and rebuild the coral reef?
00:27:33And so you just start like ticking down the projects of how could you as a species solve
00:27:39for entropy, like solve for death?
00:27:41The list is endless.
00:27:43You have more to do than you ever could in capitalism.
00:27:47It's a bigger game than capitalism.
00:27:50Can you flex it in the same way?
00:27:51Sure.
00:27:52I mean, you have the same rules, right?
00:27:53It's like anyone who does something has high status in the community.
00:27:57If I'm making a contribution, like for example, I started to, again, my entire game is to make
00:28:03death related things that are high status, make them low status, right?
00:28:06That's my whole thing.
00:28:07And so in this case, you could start scoring companies that do something that actually kill
00:28:15you, right?
00:28:16So that could be scrolling, endless scroll, inducing you to endless scroll.
00:28:20It could be alcohol.
00:28:21It could be vaping.
00:28:22It could be porn.
00:28:24It could be toxins, like all those things.
00:28:28Companies that introduce that into the world, you would quantify it and they would get a
00:28:32die score.
00:28:33Any fast food company represents death, right?
00:28:38They're actively introducing molecules into people's body that induce death versus more
00:28:43healthy ingredients.
00:28:44So like that's an example where you start assigning a quantitative measure on what an entity,
00:28:49individual or company, is doing into society.
00:28:51Like a carbon offset, but for longevity.
00:28:53Exactly.
00:28:54But it defined it this really granular fashion and you tie, because right now, if you make
00:28:59money and you dirty the world, it doesn't matter, right?
00:29:03If you make money and you poison people, it doesn't matter.
00:29:05In fact, you're kind of a hero.
00:29:06So it's a tie social status with your actual effect on life or death for the species.
00:29:13What have been the biggest changes in your approach or beliefs about health and longevity
00:29:21over the last few years?
00:29:23You came on the show maybe three years ago and then we got to hang out in Roatan a couple
00:29:27of years ago, but lots of research, lots of experimentation, self-experimentation.
00:29:33What have been the biggest pivots?
00:29:35Yeah.
00:29:36I'd say one is do less.
00:29:40Most things in health and wellness and longevity don't work.
00:29:44And so people spend a lot of time doing stuff and I would say save your time and money and
00:29:50don't do a lot of stuff.
00:29:51Do a few things.
00:29:53And then two is the biggest yield is typically doing behavioral change.
00:29:57So like if a person has, everybody has their thing.
00:30:02Let's say somebody's thing is like they love Skittles and they just can't help themselves
00:30:09to have a bag late at night, then that's the biggest longevity therapy for that person is
00:30:16to stop eating the bag of Skittles.
00:30:18And so what a person will typically do is like if they have that, if they're locked in on
00:30:21that battle, they will, to compensate for that, they'll go to a gym, they'll go get red light
00:30:29therapy, they'll do a cold plunge, they'll do all this stuff.
00:30:32That isn't the thing.
00:30:33But yeah, it's basically to compensate for the fact that they feel so powerless to stop
00:30:38the Skittles thing that they'll rather do this.
00:30:41Most people are doing that compensation.
00:30:43Even though those things are good, they're not the higher yield thing.
00:30:46The higher yield thing is to stop the bad behavior, but that's the thing that most people feel
00:30:49very hard.
00:30:50And what they don't realize in doing that is like the reason why that's hard is because
00:30:53they're not sleeping.
00:30:55Not sleeping well just destroys your willpower.
00:30:58And they're not sleeping well because five other preceding things are the case.
00:31:02So I try to help people understand like here's a five step process to nail your sleep.
00:31:08When you nail your sleep, your willpower boosts.
00:31:11When you willpower boost, you can tackle Skittles.
00:31:14That's your therapy.
00:31:15Okay.
00:31:16So it's sleep numero uno?
00:31:17By far.
00:31:18Okay.
00:31:19Give me, after all of the experimentation, what's the 30,000 foot view on how to get perfect
00:31:23sleep?
00:31:24You want to lower your resting heart rate before bed.
00:31:28That's the highest value biomarker you can track on a daily basis.
00:31:32So you'll find that everything that increases your heart rate before bed, besides sex, is
00:31:37bad for you.
00:31:38And everything that lowers your heart rate before bed is good for you.
00:31:40And so for example, food, timing of food is really important.
00:31:43So if your bedtime is 10 p.m., you want to have your final meal of the day at 6 p.m.
00:31:46So four hours.
00:31:47I personally do like 10 to 12 hours because I really like that digestion time.
00:31:51It lowers my heart rate to like 39 to 40 beats per minute.
00:31:54So food, four hours before, 60 minutes before bed, screens off.
00:31:59So that's very hard because we're all addicted to our phones, like hard-cut phones off because
00:32:04you want to avoid scrolling, texting, working.
00:32:06And that's very arousing for the body.
00:32:09Red light, amber light in the house, so whites, blue lights are really bad for melatonin release.
00:32:16You want to have a 60-minute wind-down so when screens are off, you want to use that 60 minutes
00:32:20to just calm yourself down.
00:32:22So this is very hard because we've created these habits where we're glued to our phones
00:32:28and if we're not on our phones, we don't know what to do with ourselves.
00:32:31And so it creates this panic.
00:32:33So the 60-minute time window before bed is really precious in that you just need to kind
00:32:38of be with yourself.
00:32:39Now you can hang out with a friend, a family member, you can go for a walk, your breathwork,
00:32:44meditation, a hobby, puzzle, journal, like whatever.
00:32:47But you just need to learn how to be with yourself without stimulation.
00:32:51And that will naturally allow you to calm yourself down.
00:32:54I did this process where I talked to myself.
00:32:56So I talked to my various Bryans.
00:32:58So sleep Brian comes on duty at 7.30 PM because my bedtime's at 8.30 PM.
00:33:02And then all the Bryans line up and they want to talk to me.
00:33:05How many are there?
00:33:06Oh man, there's probably a dozen.
00:33:07Probably loud.
00:33:08It's like a Bonnie Blue meetup.
00:33:09Okay.
00:33:10Yeah.
00:33:11So the first one's ambitious Brian.
00:33:12Ambitious Brian is by far the loudest.
00:33:14He's always like, he shows up and he's like, "I got a banger idea.
00:33:18Brand new idea.
00:33:19It's fucking amazing."
00:33:20And sleep Brian says, "I love you, ambitious Brian."
00:33:23Right.
00:33:24Doing us a real solid, like doing great out there.
00:33:26Also, we're in sleep mode.
00:33:28So I'm going to write down your idea and tomorrow we'll talk about this.
00:33:31And the next one is anxious Brian.
00:33:33He's like doing all the checks.
00:33:34Like today, did you make any big errors?
00:33:36Did you like, you know, do anything stupid, say anything you regret.
00:33:42And so like doing that internal reconciliation of like, do you have good self-awareness and
00:33:45they all just line up.
00:33:46But if you don't talk to them, then when your head hits a pillow, they show up and they're
00:33:52like, "We're here and we want to talk about our stuff."
00:33:55And then you go to bed.
00:33:56Finally, you wake up at 2 AM and they're like, "We're back."
00:33:58And so you've got to have some kind of reconciliation process to calm those voices.
00:34:02So like those are the big ones, like food, light, wind down routine, screens off, yeah,
00:34:13and then caffeine.
00:34:14So you want to have your final caffeine around noon each day.
00:34:16He has a six hour half-life.
00:34:18Those are the real big ones.
00:34:19So, but what you want is like for a man, you want to be like 50 ish heart rate.
00:34:24Same with the female.
00:34:25If you're in that zone, you're doing pretty well.
00:34:27If you can bump down a bit more, and once you get that nighttime routine knocked down, then
00:34:32you can start exercising very well.
00:34:33Like if you sleep really well, your willpower skyrockets.
00:34:37If you sleep poorly, it like knocks your prefrontal cortex offline.
00:34:40You can't really have much more willpower.
00:34:42So that's like number one.
00:34:44Okay.
00:34:45Lots there.
00:34:46A quick aside.
00:34:47If you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem.
00:34:50They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance.
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00:35:46How do you avoid an optimal routine becoming a fragile superstition?
00:35:52Yeah, people try to, they come with that argument, that's great, like the body loves routine,
00:36:09but the body is built for routine.
00:36:10So for example, if your bedtime is 10 PM, your circadian rhythm is locked in to 10 PM and
00:36:17your body expects sleep to happen at 10 PM.
00:36:19Well, this is what jet lag is.
00:36:21Yes, exactly.
00:36:22And so like you have a garbage truck that rolls through your body at around 10 30 PM and it's
00:36:29there to pick up all the trash.
00:36:31What is that?
00:36:32It's your, basically your cleansing system of like your, your lymphatic system is cleaning
00:36:37all the trash from your body.
00:36:38And if you're not asleep at 10 30 PM and in your deep sleep mode, it's going to, it's going
00:36:42to not come.
00:36:43So you've got trash buildup, like New York, you've got the trash bags all over the place.
00:36:47And so people think if I'm not in bed by 10, I'm going to go to bed at one, that's okay,
00:36:52I'll sleep in tomorrow morning, make up.
00:36:54It doesn't work that way.
00:36:55And so the body has very specific rhythms that it wants to be on.
00:36:59And so when you lock in, it's good.
00:37:01And so when someone makes the argument, like I'm going to give my body some problematic
00:37:04stress, right?
00:37:05I'm going to like push it to one and then I'm going to go back.
00:37:08The body hates it.
00:37:09Like inconsistent sleep is as bad as little sleep.
00:37:12I was going to say, do you, when it comes to prioritization, is duration more important
00:37:17than regularity or are they equal?
00:37:19Regularity by far is the best one.
00:37:22Yeah.
00:37:23More than duration.
00:37:24Oh, so I'm sorry.
00:37:25You said duration.
00:37:26I don't know.
00:37:27Uh, I'm not sure on that one.
00:37:29It's kind of like picking your favorite child.
00:37:31Yeah.
00:37:32Yeah.
00:37:33Because you kind of need both.
00:37:34Yeah.
00:37:35Like the lesson here is, uh, cause these are bad habits people have.
00:37:39You need to be on time.
00:37:40You can't make it up.
00:37:42You can't, uh, skip during the week and then make it up the weekend.
00:37:45It doesn't work that way.
00:37:46So you miss a garbage truck every day.
00:37:49It doesn't come back.
00:37:50Like, sure.
00:37:51Maybe in the weekend, but then you're, you're so off on your circadian rhythm that like now
00:37:55is a garbage truck even in service.
00:37:58Okay.
00:37:59Um, so, uh, I understand what you mean with regards to the timing, but the 60 minute window,
00:38:08what if you don't get it?
00:38:09What if this you're out at dinner, you're doing something with friends, you're hanging out,
00:38:14you don't get to, you're around some bright light.
00:38:16I've got a great, a great story from a friend when he was in his hyper, hyper optimizer zone,
00:38:21which everybody goes through where it's like the stress of trying to be perfect kills you
00:38:25more quickly than your imperfections do.
00:38:28And uh, he had this 60 minute wind down routine, which was blue light blockers on and the mouth
00:38:35tape and the nose strip and the magnesium by glycinate and everything else.
00:38:40And he'd been sort of winding down for 60 minutes and his girlfriend at the time had been downstairs
00:38:44and he was brushing his teeth in the dark so that he wouldn't have any light on.
00:38:49And she just comes like tinkering in, hits the light in the bathroom, like the lights
00:38:52come on.
00:38:53He's like, ah, he's blinded.
00:38:54He hasn't looked at light for an hour, goes to bed and he's raging.
00:38:57He's like, ah, here's my entire routine has been messed up and I laid there sort of staring
00:39:01at the ceiling, doesn't sleep.
00:39:02And she drops off within five minutes having just come in from like, you know, scrolling
00:39:07TikTok or whatever.
00:39:08Yeah.
00:39:09So the example is about the fragility of reliance on that and the fear that without it, what
00:39:17does that create?
00:39:18Oh, I mean, how am I going to be able to write my book today?
00:39:22I didn't get my, you know, like, as you said, like what were the stupid things that I said
00:39:26today?
00:39:27That's anxious, Brian.
00:39:28But another type of anxiety is, oh, I didn't get my routine done, therefore I can't sleep,
00:39:33which becomes self-fulfilling.
00:39:34Sleep's one of the very few things that trying harder at it makes it worse.
00:39:38Yeah.
00:39:39I mean, people can find their happy balance.
00:39:42I think if you look at the various archetypes of people, some people love that kind of regimen.
00:39:49They love to be regimented.
00:39:52They like structure.
00:39:53They like process, procedure, order, and that's just their personality type.
00:39:57Other people like the girlfriend in the story, she's not.
00:40:00And so I think the thing here is for people to recognize their kind of archetype of where
00:40:06they naturally gravitate to where they feel good about themselves.
00:40:09If you're not naturally orderly and structured, like don't be that, right?
00:40:12If you're, so it's just like, find your gem, but understand there are principles at play,
00:40:18which you can't just override, right?
00:40:20Regardless of whether you like structure or don't, like if you have a three hour swing
00:40:24between bedtimes across a week, yeah, your body doesn't work in that way.
00:40:31Okay.
00:40:32What are, what are the things that people focus on for sleep that don't move the needle?
00:40:38I, I really, uh, I guess I take 300 MCGs of magnesium, of melatonin, just like, so a third
00:40:48of a gram, a microgram, milligram.
00:40:51Yes.
00:40:52Okay.
00:40:53Yeah.
00:40:54Yeah.
00:40:55Yeah.
00:40:56Yeah.
00:40:57Because people, people fucking way, way, way overcooked.
00:40:58Like one milligram, five milligrams, like.
00:40:59There's 30 and 50 milligrams.
00:41:00Yeah, exactly.
00:41:01I do a very tiny dose of melatonin.
00:41:02Uh, it's to offset the calcification that happens in my pineal gland.
00:41:05Like as you age, your pineal gland calcifies, you produce less melatonin.
00:41:08So it's like a little offset, teeny bit.
00:41:10So in 10 years time, maybe you'll take 500 micrograms.
00:41:13Yeah, exactly.
00:41:14And so it's, it's a very small touch, but otherwise I don't take anything for sleep.
00:41:17Okay.
00:41:18And so I'd so much rather build habits.
00:41:20And this is the same thing, like Americans, just like we are, we take more antidepressants
00:41:25than any country in the world.
00:41:26Quick fix.
00:41:27We love pills.
00:41:28Like we love pills to solve fundamental problems.
00:41:30And habits- Gummy or a powder.
00:41:32Yeah.
00:41:33Habits are the strongest ones.
00:41:34Like that's why I focus on just build your sturdy habits.
00:41:38In the archetype you are, that's the tried and true thing that delivers the best.
00:41:42Now, if you want to try to amplify with whatever you take, cool.
00:41:44But generally speaking, um, it's really about habits.
00:41:48Okay.
00:41:49Give me your formula for behavior change.
00:41:51Behavior change is so important.
00:41:52Let's assume someone's taken the first red pill, which is sleep.
00:41:58And I now have access to, uh, the amount of willpower that I'm supposed to have as opposed
00:42:03to however much is diminished in my shit sleep from the night before.
00:42:07Yeah.
00:42:08I've arrived.
00:42:09He'd look at, behold my litany of shitty habits.
00:42:13Exactly.
00:42:14I'm like a guy in a side, side alley going, would you care to peruse my words of shitty
00:42:20habits?
00:42:21Um, someone has a shitty habit.
00:42:24Maybe it's the Skittles.
00:42:25Maybe it's whatever, pick whichever you think is a good one.
00:42:29Talk me through your James clear approach to the Brian Johnson's James clear.
00:42:34Okay.
00:42:35So I actually, I I'll show you mine, but I wonder if this resonates or not with people,
00:42:38but I had this issue where at 7 PM I would overeat every night.
00:42:43Yeah.
00:42:44Evening eating for me is the only time I didn't know.
00:42:46No one ever overeats.
00:42:47And if the breakfast, Oh yeah, it was just 9 AM and I gorged myself on Snickers.
00:42:52Yeah, exactly.
00:42:53Yeah.
00:42:54Like maybe I can, uh, I'll weekend brunch where you order your pancakes and you're like, Oh
00:42:56my God.
00:42:57Yeah.
00:42:58You're going to do that again.
00:42:59Yeah.
00:43:00Exactly.
00:43:01Awful.
00:43:02Yeah.
00:43:03So like your willpower goes down all day.
00:43:04It makes sense.
00:43:05Like 7 PM, like you have stress, you're worn down.
00:43:06Like you just want to like, whatever.
00:43:07So that was my issue.
00:43:08I overate at 7 PM.
00:43:09And so I did it every day for years and every night was the same battle, right?
00:43:12Like I'm not going to do it.
00:43:13I'm not going to do it.
00:43:14I do it.
00:43:15And then like, you know, my, the top button on my pants, I can't be buttoned up.
00:43:19And I'm like, fucking hate myself.
00:43:21Like this is so tight.
00:43:22I'm so uncomfortable.
00:43:23So I tried so many things to stop that and I couldn't.
00:43:26And so the one thing that I did is one day I just kind of said in jest, "Evening Brian,
00:43:33you're fired."
00:43:34Like you, Brian, who occupied me from 5 PM to 10 PM, you're an unreliable thing.
00:43:42Like every day-
00:43:43Steward.
00:43:44Yeah, steward.
00:43:45Like you basically come up with these rationalizations like tonight's the last night, tomorrow morning
00:43:51we're going to exercise really hard.
00:43:52It's one bite.
00:43:53Whatever your specific entry point is, you always convince me to do it.
00:43:58You're a slippery motherfucker.
00:43:59Exactly.
00:44:00And you basically make morning Brian miserable.
00:44:02You make dad Brian less good, less good dad, like ambitious Brian is hurting because of
00:44:07you.
00:44:08And so I said, you're fired.
00:44:09And so that means from 5 PM to 10 PM, you do not have authority to eat food.
00:44:14No matter what, like, I don't care what's happening.
00:44:18You cannot eat food because you're so shifty.
00:44:21And so I just made that rule.
00:44:22And so I gave him a name.
00:44:23I wrote down his arguments.
00:44:24And so he would come into my mind and be like, "Hey, I'm here."
00:44:27And I'm like, "Hey, evening, Brian, like, how you doing, man?"
00:44:31Fuck you.
00:44:32Yeah.
00:44:33And like, "Oh, you're going to use the we're going to work out hard tomorrow morning argument,"
00:44:35or like, "Tonight's the last night.
00:44:36Like, I see you.
00:44:37And I know what that is.
00:44:38And I've done this a hundred times.
00:44:40I've never in my entire life felt satisfied with myself after doing this.
00:44:45Ever.
00:44:46I've never felt proud of myself.
00:44:47I've never felt good."
00:44:48Yeah, you're selling yourself a lie about how you're going to feel after doing this.
00:44:50Exactly.
00:44:51And so, yeah, that was just, it was just a rule.
00:44:53And so I guess the rule is something like none is better than some.
00:44:59That we do like to rationalize that, oh, just like every once in a while is fine, moderation
00:45:05is a principle of life I want to play by.
00:45:08We have all these very clever catchphrases to justify our inability to actually do what
00:45:13we want.
00:45:14And so, yeah, that was a really clean hook for me.
00:45:16That's cool.
00:45:17And the reason that I like it is because of this most recent iteration of the over-optimizing,
00:45:23can we not just fucking like, how lame, how like the stress of trying to be perfect is
00:45:29killing you more quickly than your imperfections.
00:45:33Moderation man.
00:45:34And there is a kernel of truth in it.
00:45:35And this is why like a slower, more gentle approach to, "I see you.
00:45:39I think there's something there.
00:45:41I see you.
00:45:42I think there's something there," is, "Hey man, your focus on these habits is a kind
00:45:50of fragility and it is destroying the enjoyment of life by obsessing over how you live it."
00:45:58Right?
00:45:59So I get the angle on that.
00:46:01The problem is that nobody scrutinizes the just live by vibes man approach with the same
00:46:10level of resolution because by design they're living by fucking vibes, so nothing's being
00:46:15tracked.
00:46:16But you've, I've never even thought of it before, but you've fucking nailed it.
00:46:18Which is the, "I just live by moderation, dude," is not living by moderation.
00:46:25It's living by extremis.
00:46:26Like you end up, the moderation, you put, I always use this example because I like biscuits,
00:46:31cookies.
00:46:32I like biscuits.
00:46:34If you tell me pack of Oreos, there's one outside, you can eat none of them or you can eat all
00:46:38of them.
00:46:39Done.
00:46:40Exactly.
00:46:41Right?
00:46:42But you can eat two of them.
00:46:43Yeah.
00:46:44Exactly.
00:46:45Fucking Superman.
00:46:46Yeah.
00:46:47No, I can't eat two of them.
00:46:48Yeah.
00:46:49No.
00:46:50You give me a star.
00:46:51Maybe, I don't know.
00:46:52Maybe some people aren't like this.
00:46:53Yeah.
00:46:54I'm a eat all of them or none of them kind of guy.
00:46:55Yeah.
00:46:56So you're what on the surface, like first order looks like the very bureaucratic dictatorial
00:47:02Nazi policy.
00:47:03Like how can you do this to yourself?
00:47:04Like, ah, you're not balancing life.
00:47:06Like it would be much better if you just allowed yourself to treat like every so often.
00:47:09It's like, okay, show me how every so often your every so often is.
00:47:13Yeah, exactly.
00:47:14It's not that every so often.
00:47:15Yeah.
00:47:16It's actually most of the time.
00:47:18Yeah.
00:47:19You know, I just like, I'm a bit more flexible with my sleep.
00:47:21You know, sometimes I let myself sleep in.
00:47:23Sometimes I give myself, I go to bed a little bit later.
00:47:26Like it's like, okay, just look at when you're going to bed.
00:47:29It just keeps on shifting later and later and there is no trend over time.
00:47:33It's just what, and sometimes it's getting wider.
00:47:36Um, so yeah, I think I've never thought of it before, but the, um, everything in moderation
00:47:42is not done in moderation.
00:47:43Exactly right.
00:47:44Yeah.
00:47:45So this is like, again, a medic moral philosophy of warfare.
00:47:48So the person who's arguing for moderation is attempting to take, uh, a, a drive towards
00:47:55health and, uh, make that low status and make their moderation high status.
00:48:01So this, if you, if you, if you look at the world through this lens, you realize everybody
00:48:06at all times is trying to take their position and they're like assessing the battlefield
00:48:12and they're saying anything that makes me feel low status, I'm going to invert and make that
00:48:17high status thing low status and my thing high status, because I inherently want to feel superior
00:48:22to people at all times is that then that is like literally everything that's happening
00:48:27at any moment in society, it's just like humans want to feel superior in high status.
00:48:32Okay.
00:48:33Do you know, uh, the inner Citadel idea by Isaiah Berlin?
00:48:37I don't.
00:48:38Allow me to teach you.
00:48:39I think this may be useful to you.
00:48:40Uh, Isaiah Berlin says when the natural road to what human fulfillment is blocked, human
00:48:46beings retreat into themselves, become involved in themselves and try to create inwardly that
00:48:51world, which some evil fate has denied them externally.
00:48:54If you cannot obtain from the world that which you really desire, you must teach yourself
00:48:57not to want it.
00:48:58If you cannot get what you want, you must teach yourself to want what you can get.
00:49:03This is a very frequent form of spiritual retreat in depth into a kind of inner Citadel in which
00:49:08you try to lock yourself up against all the fearful ills of the world.
00:49:12The different way to look at it is if your leg is wounded, you can try to treat the leg.
00:49:16And if you can't, then you cut off the leg and announce that the desire for legs is misguided
00:49:20to just be subdued.
00:49:21That's right.
00:49:22Yep.
00:49:23I mean, that's it.
00:49:24I think that's the exact articulation of what we've been discussing.
00:49:29It's the medic and moral philosophy of warfare to feel superiority because nobody wants to
00:49:33feel inferior.
00:49:34Yeah.
00:49:35It's like we looked at, uh, Adlerian stuff much.
00:49:37Yeah.
00:49:38Yeah.
00:49:39And a lot of that is driven by this.
00:49:40I can't be inferior.
00:49:41Yeah.
00:49:42This is why getting into a relationship with too much of a power imbalance.
00:49:45One person is significantly busier than the other.
00:49:47One person is significantly better looking.
00:49:49The other one person has significantly more attention than the other.
00:49:52The power imbalance is so great that unless the second person is happy to only ever sing
00:49:58harmony and never sing lead and is there like in service and the service becomes their reward.
00:50:04If you have two people, you can't have two people singing lead.
00:50:06Yeah.
00:50:07Like one person has to sing harmony.
00:50:08Yeah.
00:50:09And if you're lead singing and they're lead singing and there's this fucking way ahead
00:50:12or yours is way ahead, there's going to be tension.
00:50:14And I think about, um, I think about those bridges that you see during earthquakes and
00:50:21they sort of do this, they like flex like that.
00:50:25And I think about that kind of visual, it's this sort of flexing intention.
00:50:29It's not even necessarily a pulling apart.
00:50:31It's I'm going this way and you're going that way.
00:50:33Yeah.
00:50:34Yeah.
00:50:35Exactly right.
00:50:36Yeah.
00:50:37I mean, a hundred percent.
00:50:38Like what, what is society?
00:50:39I mean, I guess like there's two macro games happening in society.
00:50:42Like in that tension is, um, what is, what is high status and then within that game of
00:50:49who is high status, right?
00:50:52That's it.
00:50:53And then you've got everyone else playing to try to take the high status, make it low status,
00:50:57but like right now, the highest status game is wealth, right?
00:51:04Capitalism.
00:51:05And this came from Adam Smith.
00:51:06This is what I'm saying.
00:51:07Like when you look...
00:51:08Is the highest status game role wealth?
00:51:10What about, uh, renowned popularity recognition?
00:51:14Because you look at, uh, at somebody who already has lots of wealth.
00:51:19And a lot of the time they continue to pursue status.
00:51:21I spoke about this with Naval and his, I think this is true.
00:51:26Are you interested to get your perspective?
00:51:28Money is evolutionarily novel and yet it's a proxy for status and it gives you things
00:51:32that status can't, but we should have raw status for statuses sake, prestige, dominance, access.
00:51:40It's like a recognition that should be more deeply rooted and therefore less easy to satiate
00:51:47than money.
00:51:48Cause money is more novel and money is not direct access to the thing that you need, right?
00:51:53Money without status can make you live, but status without money can make you fucking miserable
00:51:57and kind of on the street in a way.
00:51:59But it seems like people who get lots of status rarely continue to pursue money.
00:52:06Whereas people who get the fucking infinity money do always continue to pursue status.
00:52:11You've seen asymmetry here?
00:52:12I'm interested with your perspective on money and status.
00:52:14Absolutely right.
00:52:15I think basically, I think that's correct.
00:52:18I think money has more raw power just from a transactional, just raw power, like the ability
00:52:29to do things in the world, like to move the world money in this current context.
00:52:36Now behind that, so again, I can remember two games.
00:52:38One is what is high status and then two is who's winning within status.
00:52:43And so my comment on money is that that is within context of that is high status.
00:52:49But if you look at broader status of what is high status, religion has played status.
00:52:56You look at Christianity where Jesus is like, "Look guys, I've got a new status game for
00:53:00you.
00:53:01And it's not what you're being told.
00:53:03I'm going to tell you a whole new rule set."
00:53:06And so any religion has done that.
00:53:08And so this is the game I'm trying to play.
00:53:10I'm trying to basically say like right now, capitalism is status.
00:53:15Like it is, if we said like, this is the thing, and I'm trying to say, this is the thing that
00:53:20might lead us to make a terrible error in judgment on what we do in this moment.
00:53:27And that the flip is existence itself is high status.
00:53:33Interesting.
00:53:34And never to the exchange of anything else.
00:53:36It never is never worth trading existence for anything else, wealth, power, or status.
00:53:43Existence itself is the highest virtue.
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00:54:45Yeah, I do understand, and I think what I like is that you are not trying to upend the game
00:55:05of status itself.
00:55:07That's locked in.
00:55:08It's like saying, "Well, rather than trying to work out a more efficient rocket to get
00:55:14us off this launch pad, we can just defeat gravity," and you go, "No, there are physics
00:55:19within the system, and one of the physical laws is status."
00:55:22Yeah, so really the master game in society, the ultimate game is determining what is status,
00:55:30what is high status.
00:55:31And then, of course, you have billions and billions of humans who will play within the
00:55:35game.
00:55:36They'll just be like, "Oh, this is the game, the function, and the reward system?
00:55:38I'm playing."
00:55:39They won't think about it.
00:55:40They won't realize that the game's been set up for them.
00:55:43They'll just play it.
00:55:44That's interesting.
00:55:45Yeah, so rather than trying to convince people not to play the game, you just change what
00:55:50the game is pointing at.
00:55:51Exactly.
00:55:52And they'll play it.
00:55:53They'll have the same fundamentals they'll apply to the new game.
00:55:54So when you say existence is the highest virtue, you have the same human behaviors that are
00:55:59stamped out throughout time, same archetypes, same players, same stuff, every single time,
00:56:04just get the game right.
00:56:05And that's what I'm saying.
00:56:06If this moment is so simple, just get the objective function correct.
00:56:11It's like, I don't know, some sort of judo throw that uses your opponent's momentum against
00:56:15them.
00:56:16Yeah, exactly.
00:56:17So to speak.
00:56:18Yeah, that's right.
00:56:19That's right.
00:56:20Okay.
00:56:21Tell me about your sauna experiments.
00:56:22Yeah.
00:56:23I was watching those unfold with intrigue.
00:56:24So we discovered quite a few things that -- I shouldn't say discovered.
00:56:29We found out quite a few things.
00:56:31So one is for those who are new to sauna, dry sauna has the most evidence because you're
00:56:37trying to get your core body temperature up.
00:56:40And so infrared does not get hot enough and wet sauna will basically burn you at the temperatures
00:56:45you need.
00:56:46So dry sauna is the right -- traditional dry sauna.
00:56:49Yep.
00:56:5020 minutes a day at 200 degrees Fahrenheit, 83 -- is that 83 Celsius?
00:56:5493 Celsius.
00:56:55All right.
00:56:56200 Fahrenheit.
00:56:58So three things we found.
00:56:59One is I was in LA during the LA wildfires when like 20,000 -- yeah, that'll beat you
00:57:04up if you go close to them.
00:57:05Yeah, so I was measuring my toxins in my body when -- before the fires happened and then
00:57:10after the fires happened and I was absolutely baked in toxins.
00:57:15So I was in like the 99th percentile, as I'm sure other people in LA were too, of toxins.
00:57:20You could like go down the list and be like, this chemical is used in PVC pipe for housing.
00:57:25This chemical is like a countertop.
00:57:28This chemical is like -- you literally see the burned houses and cars.
00:57:33Breathing in Teflon and whatever else.
00:57:35You could like -- down the list, you could look at the industrial solvent.
00:57:38As a Kia Sorento.
00:57:39Yes, exactly.
00:57:41So my body was full of all these houses and cars that were burnt and the sauna annihilated
00:57:46the toxins.
00:57:47It was remarkable.
00:57:48So that was cool.
00:57:49Two is we have been trying to get my microplastics down because microplastics live in the body
00:57:54and the brain and we were measuring microplastics in my blood and also in my semen.
00:58:00And so microplastics hang out in the testicles and that has all sorts of negative effects
00:58:05on testosterone, on fertility.
00:58:07You just don't want them hanging out there.
00:58:09So I have over a 90% reduction in my blood and my semen of microplastics.
00:58:16And that was a first in world demonstration of -- no one had ever done that before.
00:58:20So because the microplastics test is actually kind of hard to do, right?
00:58:23Exactly.
00:58:24The test is hard and no one had done semen before.
00:58:26No one had repaired blood and semen.
00:58:30Hold, this is fascinating, but you know why kitchen detergents say kills 99.999% of bacteria?
00:58:39Why?
00:58:40It's not because they're unable to kill more bacteria, it's that the testing tolerance only
00:58:44goes down.
00:58:45Yeah, exactly.
00:58:46Then this kind of feels like it's not too dissimilar of the same.
00:58:49So one is we showed that sauna is a really efficacious detox protocol.
00:58:55Number two is we showed -- well, we think sauna was the reason why my microplastics went down
00:59:02so dramatically.
00:59:03We were relatively controlled across everything else.
00:59:06Exactly.
00:59:07It was very controlled.
00:59:08We didn't do any therapy in that time frame that were meaningful.
00:59:11And then three is I had really great changes, improvements in my vascular markers.
00:59:16So it actually improved.
00:59:17Even though I'm in really good health, it still had a measurable increase in my vascular markers.
00:59:22It increased my VEGF.
00:59:24This is like you want VEGF in your body because it helps produce more capillaries and blood
00:59:29vessels.
00:59:30You want a higher level.
00:59:31It increased it by 400%, which was amazing.
00:59:33I had a dramatic drop of PTAL, which is a protein in the brain that leads to Alzheimer's.
00:59:40So that dropped dramatically.
00:59:43We also did a test on looking at when you're in that kind of environment, you want to put
00:59:48ice packs on your testicles because otherwise it annihilates your fertility markers.
00:59:52It'll take down your count, your morphology, all the above.
00:59:56And even men who say like, "I don't care, I'm not trying to have a baby," there's really
00:59:59negative feedback loops.
01:00:00So if you have smashed fertility markers, then it has negative effects on your health overall.
01:00:05So I did three weeks with ice, then I went two weeks without ice.
01:00:11In that two-week window, I got smashed.
01:00:13So my fertility markers went down by 50%.
01:00:16The prices that you pay to uncover this stuff for the rest of us mere mortals.
01:00:20So I went back on ice and I've been back on ice for six weeks now and I got these results
01:00:25on my drive here.
01:00:26Okay, cool.
01:00:27Tell us.
01:00:28Yeah, so I'm going to go by memory.
01:00:30So it's the highest sperm count I've had ever.
01:00:35It's the highest motility count I've ever had.
01:00:37It's the highest morphology I've ever had.
01:00:39So not only did they bounce back, it's the highest I've ever been.
01:00:43And if you look at, these are like off the chart numbers, like six to 10 times the level
01:00:48of normal fertility.
01:00:50So what do you think is going on there?
01:00:51Is that just straight vascular changes?
01:00:53We're not sure.
01:00:54What do you think is going on?
01:00:55Come on, ballpark the mechanism for me, have a play around.
01:00:59Yeah, I mean, I really need a deep dive into this more.
01:01:05Yeah, I don't know.
01:01:07It's a really big jump and I've been doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy.
01:01:12We've been doing the sauna.
01:01:15We haven't done really any other meaningful therapy that could boost it.
01:01:20Okay, so let's go through the protocol for the sauna.
01:01:22You said 200 degrees, 20 minutes dry, the traditional sauna, ice pack on the balls.
01:01:31Does time of day matter?
01:01:36What did you go for as a solution for ice pack on the balls?
01:01:38Yeah, so you can buy these from Amazon, they're like eight bucks, BPA free, no toxins, reusable.
01:01:45So yeah, they're blue, you get a pack of like four and then you want them on the balls in
01:01:53the sauna.
01:01:54So put on cotton underwear and then cotton shorts and then slide them underneath the shorts.
01:01:59In between the two.
01:02:00Exactly.
01:02:01Yeah.
01:02:02And then like, so just have two of them in there.
01:02:03But yeah, if you keep them chilled, like we wonder whether the chilling actually has an
01:02:08improve.
01:02:09Like we can't-
01:02:10That could be so interesting.
01:02:11Yeah.
01:02:12It's got nothing to do with the saunas.
01:02:13Should you put an ice pack on your balls for 20 minutes a day?
01:02:14We know sauna destroys, but we wonder like, is the icing, because we saw-
01:02:18Get out of the sauna, put the ice pack on the balls.
01:02:21Yeah, if you're working now, so we actually were going through another experiment after
01:02:24this completed.
01:02:25I was going to start icing the testicles during the day, like just when I work.
01:02:30Because we saw like a 30% jump in my fertility markers in the first three weeks of doing ice.
01:02:35And we were trying to figure out like, why did the sauna increase it and then the ice
01:02:40just protected the increase?
01:02:42So we're still trying to figure out what the cause is.
01:02:43Some collaboration of the two.
01:02:44Okay.
01:02:45Okay.
01:02:46What else have I got to ask?
01:02:47Are you taking any binders, like a charcoal, a colorless styromine, a NAC flush type scenario,
01:02:56something to capture the heavy metals that are coming out of you?
01:02:58None.
01:02:59Right.
01:03:00No.
01:03:01So it was just two pairs of cotton shorts, an ice pack, and a sauna.
01:03:04And like a cotton towel, wipe yourself off as you're sweating, jump in the shower.
01:03:08Why the wipe yourself off?
01:03:09I'll just, if the toxins are being excreted via sweat, just snag it when it's like hanging
01:03:14out your skin so it doesn't dry.
01:03:18Shower straight after.
01:03:19Yep.
01:03:20That's it.
01:03:21That's the entirety of the protocol.
01:03:22Yep.
01:03:23Cool.
01:03:24I'm going to guess you were doing that seven days.
01:03:25Yeah.
01:03:26Every day.
01:03:27Right.
01:03:28Yeah.
01:03:29I do it after working out.
01:03:30So I go work out for an hour.
01:03:31I immediately jump into the sauna.
01:03:32And so I'm already really warmed up.
01:03:33Yeah.
01:03:34As opposed to spending the first seven minutes getting up to...
01:03:36Exactly.
01:03:37...temperature.
01:03:38When you're talking about Rhonda Patrick, there seems to be some pretty good evidence
01:03:40about, well, you're kind of extending the session's benefits somewhat, so you're stacking a few
01:03:46things together.
01:03:47Exactly right.
01:03:48But I do like the idea of, we were talking about behavior change earlier on, stacking
01:03:53habits.
01:03:54Yes.
01:03:55It's very strong.
01:03:56Exactly.
01:03:57It's like, look, if I'm going to train, and I know that when I get home from training,
01:03:58my training session is an hour, but I'm actually going to book an hour and 40 in, and that gives
01:04:03me 10 minutes to get home.
01:04:05And then I'm going to get in the sauna for 20 minutes, or wherever.
01:04:07I'm going to go to maybe the sauna's in gym or whatever.
01:04:10And then it's going to give me 10 minutes for my shower.
01:04:12And then I'm done.
01:04:13And I've done both of these things, and I've done them in the right order.
01:04:15I've done them together in that format.
01:04:19Anything else on sauna?
01:04:20Anything else?
01:04:21Initially, I did sauna in the morning.
01:04:23So in the first two weeks, it absolutely wrecked my sleep, destroyed it.
01:04:28Not doing it in the morning.
01:04:30Well, I think just doing it, period.
01:04:32It's 200 degrees is a lot.
01:04:34It's really, really warm.
01:04:35Never done sauna before, so I think it was just the adaptation time period.
01:04:39I'm fine now, but just note that there's initially an adaptation time period.
01:04:44And then two is I tried at night, initially it wrecked my sleep.
01:04:48But then I tried it after I had the adaptation period, and it boosted my sleep.
01:04:52So I found that there is some virtue in doing it before bed.
01:04:55So you just have to run the experiment, you have to see for you if it's going to improve
01:04:59sleep or not.
01:05:00Yeah.
01:05:01That also means that you're going to have to be training later in the day, which is not
01:05:03always necessary.
01:05:04Yeah, exactly.
01:05:05Because you don't want to exercise within four hours before bedtime.
01:05:08Yeah.
01:05:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:10Yeah.
01:05:11Yeah.
01:05:12Yeah.
01:05:13Yeah.
01:05:14Yeah.
01:05:15Yeah.
01:05:16Yeah.
01:05:17Yeah.
01:05:18Yeah.
01:05:19Yeah.
01:05:20Yeah.
01:05:21Yeah.
01:05:22Yeah.
01:05:23Yeah.
01:05:24Yeah.
01:05:25Yeah.
01:05:26Yeah.
01:05:27Yeah.
01:05:28Yeah.
01:05:29Exactly.
01:05:30Because you don't want to exercise within four hours before bedtime.
01:05:31Yeah.
01:05:32Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:33Yeah.
01:05:34Yeah.
01:05:35So I'm in the office from Beam Hyperbarics in Austin.
01:05:37If anyone wants to go to a great hyperbarics place, it's fucking sick, you can book it by
01:05:40the hour, fancy is great.
01:05:42And I'm knocking on this tiny little portal out of my submarine.
01:05:47And he comes in and I just showed my phone.
01:05:50I'm like, I couldn't be bothered to use the radio to get outside.
01:05:54I'm like, "Is Brian, Brian messaged?
01:05:56Are we doing this?"
01:05:57And he sort of went.
01:05:58That's so funny.
01:05:59Yeah.
01:06:00Put his thumb up like that.
01:06:01So hyperbaric.
01:06:02I mean, I was-
01:06:03Red pill me.
01:06:04I was, when you messaged me, I was worried about you because a week before somebody had
01:06:10blown up in Arizona.
01:06:13So yeah.
01:06:14What does that look like?
01:06:15Well, so in hyperbaric, the idea is you pressurize.
01:06:19So you're actually, so at atmosphere, at sea level, we're about 15 pounds per square inch
01:06:26of concentration of oxygen.
01:06:29At two atmospheres, you're at 30.
01:06:31So you pressurize.
01:06:33And some hyperbaric chambers, they pressurize, and then they just push 100% oxygen into the
01:06:39chamber.
01:06:40So you're just hanging out and breathing the oxygen.
01:06:43But if you're doing that, you're sitting in a pressurized chamber and you're basically
01:06:46a flammable-
01:06:47Or a candle wave.
01:06:50You're a bomb.
01:06:51So if something, if there's a spark of any type, you just blow up.
01:06:55Your phone or some device that you've got with you or whatever the fuck.
01:06:59Okay.
01:07:00No, no, no, no, no.
01:07:01This was, I was not, I had the, I was breathing the mask, I was doing stuff.
01:07:06Cool.
01:07:07Great.
01:07:08Okay, cool.
01:07:09Yeah.
01:07:10So yes, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I think today it's fair to say has been the single
01:07:14best performing therapy we've ever done.
01:07:17And this is both good news and bad news because the bad news is that it's expensive, it's inaccessible,
01:07:24it's time consuming.
01:07:25Super inconvenient.
01:07:26So it sucks because I hate sharing this because people, it's very exciting, but then it sucks
01:07:30because people can't do it.
01:07:31I mean, if you're ready to say, "I've got to find a sauna to use," and most people don't
01:07:35have a sauna in the house, "Oh God, now you're telling me I need to produce my own oxygen.
01:07:40This thing weighs fucking two tons.
01:07:42Where does it fit?"
01:07:44Totally.
01:07:45Yeah.
01:07:46And who has 90 minutes in a day to go do this thing?
01:07:49So I would just say for people who have a serious condition, and there's a variety of conditions
01:07:56that this could address, like even cognitive decline or wounds for diabetes.
01:08:03What would be on the list?
01:08:05So there's a lot of emergent evidence for cognitive decline, that if you're entering the latter
01:08:10parts of your life and you're really struggling, this could have a meaningful impact on that.
01:08:15It is used for diabetics who can't heal very well.
01:08:18It's used for healing.
01:08:19So people who've had surgeries to accelerate the healing process, if you have some kind
01:08:22of injury, you're really trying to overcome, that can be great.
01:08:25You're just telling me that some athletes post-surgery are in 90 minutes three times
01:08:29a day.
01:08:30Exactly.
01:08:31They're trying to hit that 90 session number within weeks.
01:08:34Yes.
01:08:35So there are some specialized applications where, and people where it makes sense for
01:08:39the person to do, but I just want to be very sensitive.
01:08:41I understand it sucks to hear something's really efficacious and you can't get at exclusionary.
01:08:46That makes sense.
01:08:47So yeah, we basically, like we do with all things, we measured, we had this, we cast this
01:08:52really wide net.
01:08:53We measured everything we could, my brain, my microbiome, a full blood panel, saliva
01:08:59stool, metabolomics, proteomics, like you name it, we measured it.
01:09:03And we just found improvements across the board.
01:09:06It was really, because most therapies will improve like this particular marker or that
01:09:10marker, but rarely do they have this broad spectrum improvement.
01:09:14So we saw like the cognitive decline marker, PTAL217 drop, we saw a microbiome, I had zero
01:09:22dysbiosis in my microbiome, like no signatures at all of dysbiosis.
01:09:27We saw, I had no detectable inflammation in my body.
01:09:29So like when my HSCRP came back, zero.
01:09:32The 99.99, like he's beaten the test.
01:09:35Exactly.
01:09:36It was really remarkable across the board.
01:09:38And so it was really efficacious.
01:09:39I did 60 sessions over 90 days and I've continued to do it.
01:09:43I've now done something like 200 sessions over the past year or something like that.
01:09:48So I just have it as part of my routine.
01:09:50I do it, you want to be careful not to do it too much because you'll have oxygen toxicity.
01:09:55Yes.
01:09:56You want to have some...
01:09:57But that's why the five-minute break is so important, right?
01:09:58Yeah.
01:09:59And I also take like a week-long break.
01:10:00I'll do a sprint, then a week-long break.
01:10:03So you just need to be careful because you can overdo it and cause harm.
01:10:06If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going
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01:11:11What was the protocol of mask on, mask off?
01:11:1320 minutes on, five minutes off.
01:11:15Cool.
01:11:16Yeah, I was doing that.
01:11:17The one super fucking annoying thing there is it's very relaxing to be in, it can be
01:11:23very relaxing once you've pressurized, but you can't sleep because you've got to take
01:11:32this thing on and off.
01:11:34One of the things that I really enjoyed doing was HRV resonance breathing while I was in
01:11:38there.
01:11:39Have you got into resonance breathing yet?
01:11:40Have you been doing it in the H-bot?
01:11:42So much fun.
01:11:43Yeah, it is.
01:11:44So much fun.
01:11:45There's a product that I got sent, I think in the first person outside of the company
01:11:50to have got it, it's this little lamp.
01:11:51I wouldn't be able to take it in, all fucking hell would break loose, but it's basically
01:11:55a resonance breathing stone and you pick it up and it's got an FDA approved thing in it
01:12:00and the lamp goes up and down and you put it back and it's done.
01:12:02So you don't need your phone, you don't need anything else, that's brilliant.
01:12:04But elite HRV is what I was using with the strap, I'm going to guess you'll have seen.
01:12:09One thing that I noticed about that niche issue, the strap that came with the elite HRV thing,
01:12:17which you put on so that it can detect like real high fidelity, high Hertz heart rate thing.
01:12:23The button that you use to press to turn it on has a tiny little air pocket around it.
01:12:28So I got into the fucking H-bot and by the time I'd pressurized to get down there, the
01:12:33button had been smashed and I couldn't press, there was no air to press the button and then
01:12:38I was like trying to press it and it's just like SpongeBob when he gets outside of the water.
01:12:45So anyway, H-bot, couple of questions on this, 60 sessions as quickly as possible, basically,
01:12:54to start to accumulate, it's not like a one and done type of thing.
01:13:01I think I asked you this at the time, I'm interested if there's any more information, going from
01:13:07trait change to trait change, like is this the sort of thing that locks in, I'm aware
01:13:12you haven't then tested coming off and seeing what the tail of this is, but the same thing
01:13:18goes for sauna.
01:13:19Are you just fighting entropy with this?
01:13:22Is it something that you just need to do or is there anything, I certainly know in me,
01:13:28if I look at a therapy or a modality or whatever and I find that there's no carry over, I feel
01:13:35despondent and I'm like, "Fucking hell, I've just found this new thing, here's another thing
01:13:41I have to do."
01:13:42Does that make sense?
01:13:43Yeah.
01:13:44It's because both you and I are on the other side of the entropy curve, the deal you want
01:13:50is youth.
01:13:51When you're 12, you just keep on getting better.
01:13:55But once you cross over-
01:13:56Slow down.
01:13:57Slow down.
01:13:58Exactly.
01:13:59They just, every day they get up and shit's just better.
01:14:02But yeah, you and I are both on the other side where we're on this irreversible decline and
01:14:06so yes, you've got to keep it up.
01:14:08But one thing people are not aware of with HBOT is it's the best skin rejuvenation therapy
01:14:14in the world.
01:14:15So a lot of people-
01:14:16Better than red light, better than microneedling?
01:14:17Everything.
01:14:18Better than the vampire facial, better than any laser.
01:14:21It is because if you look at the data on the biopsies of rebuilding collagen, elastin and
01:14:27reducing senescent cell, it basically remodels your entire skin.
01:14:31It's not just face, every layer of skin you're remodeling is really remarkable.
01:14:36If you look at people, if I see people now, I can tell a signature of HBOT skin.
01:14:44It's very, very clear to me what it looks like and so it just happens.
01:14:48So yeah, that's the other thing is a lot of women who really care a lot about skin, HBOT-
01:14:54Getting the fucking HBOT.
01:14:56Even if you pair, the best banger protocol is to, for skin, is to pair the best devices
01:15:03with HBOT.
01:15:04So you basically, you do like a surface level, like a 1550 nanometer to resurface the skin
01:15:09for spots, wrinkles, stuff like that, then you do HBOT and you can accelerate the healing.
01:15:14Is that microneedling?
01:15:15Is that what you're referring?
01:15:16No, it's just a laser.
01:15:17Like a 1550 nanometer laser where it's a very benign laser, if you do it right, has lower
01:15:23risk of like pigmentation issues.
01:15:26For wrinkles, spots, just like for texture, and then you can do a deeper device like a
01:15:31softwave, S-O-F-W-A-V-E, where it's ultrasound, where it's 1.5 millimeters below the dermis.
01:15:38So you hit top layer and underneath the dermis, so you're rebuilding collagen and the entire
01:15:43scaffolding of the skin.
01:15:44And then you do the HBOT and then you accelerate the healing.
01:15:47So you basically do more sessions in this.
01:15:50So that's like- You do an acute like skin rejuvenation thing
01:15:53and then fuck up.
01:15:54That's the best thing.
01:15:55You're still here.
01:15:56She's outside.
01:15:57I think I did softwave because I went to your dermatologist in LA.
01:16:01Which one?
01:16:02Fuck, I can't remember the lady's name.
01:16:03It was in, that was why I had a mustache.
01:16:05I grew a mustache because I needed to get rid of my facial hair because they needed to do
01:16:09that in order to be able to, I'm pretty, I'm almost certain it was softwave that I was in.
01:16:15It felt like a- Cigarette burn that never actually got to a bone.
01:16:19Exactly.
01:16:20It was like you're being singed by like a hot metal iron.
01:16:23Yeah, but it never actually peaks to the- Yeah.
01:16:26It was a really interesting lesson in, and blowing the cold shit, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:34It was a really interesting lesson in pain that because what you realize as you ride this
01:16:41crescendo for the people that haven't seen it, it's literally as if someone was to put
01:16:44something really hot out on you and when that happens, there is a swelling, there is a crescendo,
01:16:49but it usually peaks that you can almost hear it, right?
01:16:52If you have alcohol and an open wound, that's, it goes like that, but it doesn't ever get
01:16:58above a six or so.
01:17:02If she did, if she set the settings to 3.5 joules, which is the lowest setting, then it
01:17:08gets pretty tolerable if she goes to 4.2 top end, because basically it's a total energy
01:17:13per area.
01:17:14I think I had it at around about three point, I think she had it at 3.6, 3.7, so I was being
01:17:19a weenie.
01:17:20Okay, yeah, so if you're the 4.2, where it basically like it cuts down the number of pulses
01:17:24by 30%, if you want to like zip through it, god damn that, that is so painful.
01:17:28No thank you.
01:17:29Oh man, it does, it just feels like a red hot iron into the face.
01:17:35No more, no more, thank you.
01:17:39You mentioned there about sort of vascular health and blood flow, obviously we started
01:17:43talking about night time erectile stuff, for guys to improve blood pressure, vascular health,
01:17:53and then I guess downstream from that, the impact on erections, erectile dysfunction beyond
01:17:57like night time stuff.
01:17:59What have you come to learn about that, what's the protocol for a guy to improve that?
01:18:04Yeah, so I guess I would say to people listening, maybe the thing that's most interesting is
01:18:10when I started this when I was 42, I was pretty beat up.
01:18:14I had eaten sugar cereal as a kid, soda, downed 70 grams of sugar daily, canned foods, I did
01:18:25the entrepreneurial grind, didn't sleep, I was depressed for 10 years, I was overweight,
01:18:30I did all the things.
01:18:31Starting behind the eight ball.
01:18:33All the bad things, and so I'm 42, I'm pretty beat up, my aches hurt, I'm losing my hair,
01:18:39and so I didn't really know what could be done.
01:18:44I'm really shocked by how efficacious this entire thing has been.
01:18:48I'm just really stunned that the body really has this capacity to bounce back no matter
01:18:54how bad things are.
01:18:56So one, for anyone listening who needs hope in their life, it really, the body is too far
01:19:03gone.
01:19:04Totally.
01:19:05So don't give up, the smallest of things can have the biggest yields, and so have hope.
01:19:11And then two is, I've been jamming on this for five years now, my markers keep on getting
01:19:16better.
01:19:17And so we still, I've aged past five years in time, but I'm still hitting new record highs
01:19:24in nighttime erections, in fertility markers, in my speed of aging, in my DNA, in my telomeres,
01:19:30all these things are improving as time is passing.
01:19:33Doesn't seem to be a ceiling.
01:19:34So I mean, on the grand scale of things, I suspect these are, this is not going to get
01:19:41me to 200 years, it's not on that kind of scale, but still, in how I feel as a person,
01:19:47I do feel extremely energetic, I'm very clear-headed, I feel my mood is very stable, I don't get irritated,
01:19:52I'm just kind of cool with existence, which is like, for me, that's the marker of health.
01:19:58So one hope, two is, I think it's really worth the investment of this stuff, just paying your
01:20:03- paying the discipline to do a consistency, and then the last thing is, you don't need
01:20:11to do what I do.
01:20:12Like, you don't need to chase these expensive therapies, you don't need to do HBOT, the basic
01:20:17stuff has the dividends.
01:20:19And so I want people to feel hope and not discouraged, I want them to feel empowered, not like, damn
01:20:25it, that's out of reach.
01:20:26Because it really is, it's within people's reach, and I hope they walk away feeling like,
01:20:30damn it, I can do that, I'm going to do it, I can do that.
01:20:33What are the big moves?
01:20:34We've already said, sleep, and you've given a good breakdown there.
01:20:36If there was a top three, top five, however many you need for, okay, the Pareto, 80% of
01:20:46the results come from these things, what are those things?
01:20:48Yeah, so first, I would frame this in a moral philosophy.
01:20:52So I'd say, if - Believe - Yes, first, like, your most prized possession
01:21:01is agency.
01:21:04Nothing valued more than your agency.
01:21:06And right now, most people's agency is compromised, that they are not the architects of their life
01:21:12because they compulsively scroll, they compulsively eat fast food, they compulsively do all these
01:21:19addictive behaviors.
01:21:20And then when pressed on it, they rationalize it as virtue because they're trapped.
01:21:26And so I would challenge everyone here to say, like, reclaim yourself, don't do anything you
01:21:32don't want to do, and that the enemy is the motherfucker who's trying to get you to do
01:21:38something that is not in your best interest.
01:21:41Fuck them.
01:21:43That is the enemy.
01:21:44And so, like, that gives you real moral power.
01:21:46Don't be puppeted.
01:21:47Now, once you have that principle, like, I'm going to set my bedtime, I'm not going to doom
01:21:53scroll, I'm not going to eat that fucking bag of Skittles, right?
01:21:55I'm not going to eat the fast food.
01:21:57That's poison.
01:21:58They're going to trick me into thinking it's a treat or something.
01:22:01But that's, I think, for me, the boundary conditions of how you create the kind of energy state
01:22:09of, like, I can do this and I have a moral will to do it, not just because of self-help,
01:22:16but I'm fighting an enemy, I'm overcoming adversity, I'm a man standing on my agency or woman.
01:22:23Like that, to me, gives it the juice, too.
01:22:24I have the willpower to do it.
01:22:26Okay.
01:22:27Now that we've got the moral framework, what are the tactical things?
01:22:29Yeah.
01:22:30So you, once you have agency, you want to reclaim your willpower.
01:22:33You need to have juice in the tank to say, like, I can make decisions that I can do it.
01:22:37So one is you want to master sleep.
01:22:39You want to build your entire life around sleep.
01:22:41That's very counterintuitive, but you want to plan when you go to bed, when your windover
01:22:44team is, you want to set strict rules, you want to plan your lighting, like, again, you
01:22:49can choose your archetype, whether you're really regimented, whether you're, like, more flexible,
01:22:52like, whatever your thing is, but just build your entire life around sleep.
01:22:56And if you need justification, realize those not doing that are 10 to 12 points stupider
01:23:02than you.
01:23:03Like, they're actually dumb, so they take a retardation exercise for them.
01:23:06You're actually going to be smart.
01:23:07Once you do that, exercise, because that also is going to boost your willpower.
01:23:10So boost it with sleep, boost it with exercise, and then once you get those two down, then
01:23:14tackle food, because food is the most complicated.
01:23:16Food is where we go to, like, soothe ourselves to do, like, the self-therapy.
01:23:20So only tackle then, try to start just having a bit more good things for you and a few less
01:23:25bad things.
01:23:26Like, slowly walk your way into it.
01:23:28Radical change is hard for a lot of people, but it's, like, slow walking into it.
01:23:31And then if you, again, have that in the back of your mind, like, a rule, you will never
01:23:35ever eat fast food ever again.
01:23:37Like, none is better than some.
01:23:40So there's no moderation.
01:23:41There's no once a day, like, the idea of a cheat meal is the worst idea in history.
01:23:45Like, don't do cheat days, don't do cheat meals, don't do cheat weeks, don't do cheat anything,
01:23:50don't cheat.
01:23:51When it comes to exercise, well, for longevity, most people are already doing, almost everybody
01:24:01that's listening is going to have some sort of training regime, I would imagine.
01:24:05The vast majority of them are going to be something like a push-pull-leg split.
01:24:09And maybe other people are runner boys and runner girls.
01:24:15If you were to design the minimum effective dose, this is where I think the blind spots
01:24:23are for people.
01:24:24What would you say, exercise-wise?
01:24:27Because everyone's got their jam, well, there's Pilates, weights, whatever, just do it.
01:24:31Just be active for roughly an hour a day.
01:24:33Do cardio to strength to balance to flexibility.
01:24:37Everyone's got their own preferences, but I think I don't go after the details here because
01:24:42there's, like, endless material to go after.
01:24:45Just be active and commit to be active.
01:24:46Some people like chicken, some people like salmon, some people like kale, some people
01:24:49like spinach.
01:24:50Exactly.
01:24:51And the same thing with food.
01:24:52I don't get into the game of carnivore versus vegan versus paleo versus whatever.
01:24:58They're abstractions, which are irrelevant.
01:25:01Eat what you want, measure your body, make sure you're good, and then fine-tune yourself.
01:25:05I have a Don't Die Food guide.
01:25:06We tried to look through all the scientific evidence and say, "What are the very best foods
01:25:10in existence with the highest value of evidence that you can put into your body?"
01:25:13So we just said, by a power law perspective, "Here's what I'd put on so I can share that
01:25:17as a plate."
01:25:18Outside of that, do your thing.
01:25:20Just eat what you want, just measure your body, make sure you're good.
01:25:22Right.
01:25:23Okay.
01:25:24Methylene blue.
01:25:25How'd you get on with that?
01:25:26I stopped it because I started 25 milligrams a day, and then, oh, it was conflicting.
01:25:30We started a therapy doing altitude training.
01:25:32So you take your blood oxygenation down to 80%.
01:25:36We did it, and the two have conflicting mechanisms of action, and we realized it on day three.
01:25:41We were like, "We better stop methylene blue to do some therapy."
01:25:44Oh, okay.
01:25:45Is methylene blue?
01:25:46It's like nicotine derivative, right?
01:25:47Or it's something to do with nicotine?
01:25:48I mean, it's a synthetic dye.
01:25:49Initially, it was built because the surgeons wanted to see where they're actually in the
01:25:53surgical body.
01:25:54But it was actually FDA approved for, what was it, I forget how you know, it was FDA approved
01:26:01quite a while ago.
01:26:03But overall, we don't think that's really, we don't think it's worth it as a therapy.
01:26:09Yeah, it's more for like mitochondrial health.
01:26:11Okay.
01:26:12Testosterone.
01:26:13Yeah.
01:26:14Testosterone, the fucking hormone of the 21st century.
01:26:19It is.
01:26:20What have you come to learn about testosterone?
01:26:22Yeah, so I'm in like the 700s naturally.
01:26:25So just by doing all the basic stuff.
01:26:27What were you in when you started, do you know?
01:26:30I guess like, when I was 42, I don't know, I need to look at my data.
01:26:37But if a man is low on testosterone and the natural approaches are not addressing it, it
01:26:42probably makes sense to do something about it.
01:26:44Like being low on testosterone just has really negative consequences.
01:26:47So yeah, go to a watch out there.
01:26:49What are the ways to intervene naturally?
01:26:52What are the biggest needle movers that you've found?
01:26:54All the basics, right?
01:26:55Like sleep.
01:26:56Like I think poor sleep, four hours of sleep a night will knock you down something like
01:27:0210 to 20% on testosterone.
01:27:06Really like really big drop.
01:27:07Less of a man again.
01:27:08Again.
01:27:09Yeah, like high status status.
01:27:10So then sleep, exercise, nutrition, like all the basics.
01:27:14I don't think there's a lot of proven supplementation that can move the needle.
01:27:20Without getting into pharmacology.
01:27:21Yeah, I think people have played a bunch of stuff.
01:27:24If I'm not mistaken, I'm not sure the clinical evidence is very strong there.
01:27:27I need to look at it.
01:27:28I guess I have never had low testosterone, so I've never had to look at supplementation
01:27:31as a means to do it.
01:27:32So I guess I would be cautious and my knowledge is limited in terms of the true evidence for
01:27:37clinical intervention.
01:27:38The thing that's interesting around sort of male hormone, and I imagine it's the same for
01:27:43women, but I don't know anything about them.
01:27:46The relationship between, it's such a fucking like balance beam of LH, FSH, testosterone,
01:27:55free tea.
01:27:56Yeah.
01:27:57Yeah.
01:27:58SAGB.
01:27:59Yeah, there is no, it seems to me, total fucking white belt.
01:28:04It seems to me like one intervention is not one intervention.
01:28:08It starts to roll away into this domino effect.
01:28:11So talking about, I want my testosterone higher.
01:28:12It's like, well, do you?
01:28:13Yeah.
01:28:14Yeah.
01:28:15Do you?
01:28:16Maybe FSH needs to happen.
01:28:17I mean, people that go on Enclomafine or HCG chronically, what is it like 20% or some big
01:28:22percent of them talk about that inducing depression and you go, okay, so you're worried that you
01:28:28had low energy because of your low testosterone and you tried to take a non-exogenous solution
01:28:36to create that, so I'm going to kickstart my own production by using these compounds.
01:28:42And in the process of doing that, I've made myself have depression, which almost certainly
01:28:46made you a fucking low, I forget low energy, you've got low mood now.
01:28:49Yeah.
01:28:50And so, yeah, be careful how you intervene with that, I think.
01:28:54Yeah, that's very true.
01:28:55Yeah.
01:28:56I guess the way we thought about it is we approached this holistically.
01:28:59We just said our frame entirely is scientific evidence, just like what does the body of evidence
01:29:07say to do?
01:29:08And we took the most powerful molecules in the form of foods, supplements, and then lifestyle,
01:29:15sleep, diet, exercise, and then therapies, sauna, H-bot, and we just said take the very
01:29:21best high-performers ones, put it all into one package, and do the entire package.
01:29:25And it makes sense if you're taking care of the entire body on every level, you have these
01:29:31systematic effects.
01:29:32They all come online.
01:29:33Exactly.
01:29:34So I think people approach these things very narrowly, but our hormones is a very – you
01:29:38see microplastics, right?
01:29:41Microplastic in the testicles has a negative feedback loop for fertility and hormones.
01:29:47The same is true with toxins.
01:29:49So when we talk about testosterone, we don't talk about microplastic intervention, which
01:29:54then leads back to sauna, which then leads back to – so like we try to just be holistic,
01:29:59like give me the whole thing and let me build that into one daily practice.
01:30:04So I don't have to then try to figure out like this and that thing.
01:30:08Talking of daily practices, what's this 15-second phone call thing you're doing?
01:30:12Oh yeah, with my friends, yeah.
01:30:13So a friend of mine introduced this to me.
01:30:16So he – I became friends with this person and he's very powerful and he would call
01:30:27me and he'd be like, "Brian," like blank statement.
01:30:31I say something to him.
01:30:32He'd be like, "All right, man.
01:30:33I love you.
01:30:34See you."
01:30:35That's it.
01:30:36And I was like, "That is amazing.
01:30:37It was so clean.
01:30:38It feels so good."
01:30:39And we just did that through like a couple of months and we built this amazing friendship.
01:30:4315-second friendship.
01:30:45But it was like this deep – and I guess I imagine in my mind, like I imagine what his
01:30:51day must be like.
01:30:53He's juggling all kinds of crazy things.
01:30:56He clearly does not have time for like sit down, hang out, do this and that, but yet he
01:31:00does such a great job of maintaining really meaningful, like deep relationships.
01:31:05So when he says he loves you, it's like you feel it.
01:31:07It's like he's not like just saying it.
01:31:09And so I appreciated his model of friendship so much because before I was stuck in this
01:31:14idea that, "Hey, Chris.
01:31:15You want to hang out?"
01:31:17You know?
01:31:18It's a big deal.
01:31:19It's like a fucking Airbnb.
01:31:20I'll buck a week off work.
01:31:21Yeah.
01:31:22It's like a four-hour thing, right?
01:31:23Versus calling you like, "Hey, man.
01:31:24Like what's up?
01:31:25How you doing?"
01:31:26And like you can answer because you know I'm not going to be on the phone for 20 minutes.
01:31:29Yeah.
01:31:30I mean, I did the series Life Hacks on the show when I first started and we do one every
01:31:34year now at Christmas.
01:31:35And back in the day when that was one of the big thrusts of the show, we'd often get asked,
01:31:42you know, 500 or 1,000 Life Hacks that you did, one of the highest impact ones.
01:31:49The first one is always sleep with your phone outside of your bedroom.
01:31:53But it's an instant 10% to 15% improvement in quality of life in that one thing.
01:31:58So that's actually before sleep.
01:32:00Let's take the charging cable outside of your bedroom and put it in the kitchen.
01:32:04But the second one was text your friends when you think of them.
01:32:07And this is my equivalent of the 15-second friendship.
01:32:11And it's just, "Hey, man, like thinking of you, hope you're well, like whatever."
01:32:16Or a photo that you think about your friend and you find an old photo and you send it.
01:32:20And it really speed runs a friendship.
01:32:24You become tighter friends with people who you've known for less long than people that
01:32:28you've known longer that you don't do that with or don't do with you.
01:32:31And I really loved it.
01:32:32And it really brightened my day.
01:32:33And it felt like I was doing something good for someone at a very low cost.
01:32:37It was like high impact.
01:32:38It was high leverage, friendship.
01:32:40Right.
01:32:41It was a low investment.
01:32:42Very, very high impact.
01:32:43Yeah.
01:32:44A little bit of a giggle and it keeps it going.
01:32:45Exactly.
01:32:46And the other thing it does, which is, I guess, a hack from my world of running nightclubs.
01:32:51It's an idea of assume familiarity.
01:32:54Yes.
01:32:55So assuming familiarity in this context is most people that don't know each other particularly
01:33:00well have this sense that any text has to be super verbose.
01:33:07Yeah.
01:33:08"Hello, dear Brian.
01:33:09I hope that you are in the family are well.
01:33:10I must congratulate you on the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah," as opposed to funny meme or
01:33:15whatever.
01:33:16"Hey man, thinking of you.
01:33:17Hope all's good."
01:33:18Whatever.
01:33:19Right?
01:33:20You can take it a little bit too far and it sounds a bit entitled or a bit brusque or sharp
01:33:26expectant.
01:33:27But if I'm like, "Dude, love the YouTube video.
01:33:29By the way, I'm an agebot.
01:33:31How long am I supposed to breathe it for?"
01:33:32Oh, thank you for fucking consuming my shit and for the respect.
01:33:37By the way, here's a thing.
01:33:39We don't need foreplay.
01:33:40Right?
01:33:41Let's get into it.
01:33:42Exactly.
01:33:43Yeah.
01:33:44I mean, since we hung out on Prospera, we've been doing that, right?
01:33:46And it's-
01:33:47Bullshit.
01:33:48No talk for three months and then a dikka, dikka, dikka, dikka, and then no talk for three
01:33:51months and then dikka, dikka, dikka, dikka.
01:33:52And I feel as fluid with you as I feel with any friend I've had for any duration of time.
01:33:57We get each other.
01:33:58We're on the same wavelength.
01:33:59We understand it's happening to each other's lives.
01:34:01Most of my friends...
01:34:02Actually, I'm really surprised.
01:34:05Most of my friends who are powerful and successful and famous are lonely, right?
01:34:14They work all the time.
01:34:16They have work relationships, but the amount of time they have to be down and hanging out
01:34:21is so small.
01:34:23And so if you don't have some mechanism to create deep friendships, and time is not your...
01:34:28You can't use time.
01:34:29You have to use something else.
01:34:31Yeah.
01:34:32It needs to be a longer lever to be able to work.
01:34:34And so I've just been surprised that people have this perception that they always perceive
01:34:40others like they must have it all, but loneliness is a real thing.
01:34:43And so I guess, again, I say this for those who are listening.
01:34:47If you feel lonely, understand your pattern is pretty similar to other people's patterns,
01:34:52independent of resources or position or power status.
01:34:55The people at the top of the tree are struggling with the loneliness just as much as you do.
01:34:59And this is the cool thing is when I've talked to my friends and they'll disclose that.
01:35:03It's a really, you have to be...
01:35:07It's a scary thing.
01:35:08Shameful thing.
01:35:09Yeah.
01:35:10It is.
01:35:11To actually disclose that.
01:35:12It's like, "I don't have any friends."
01:35:13I had a friend of mine connected me with a celebrity today, one of the A-list celebrities
01:35:18in Hollywood.
01:35:19I talked to this person.
01:35:20I said, "Why don't you come over to my house?
01:35:22We'll do a don't die dinner.
01:35:23Get 10 or 15 of your favorite people.
01:35:25Come on over."
01:35:26I'm like, "I'll do this whole thing."
01:35:27And I explained it.
01:35:28And they said, "I don't really have any friends."
01:35:31Wow.
01:35:32Yeah.
01:35:33It was just such a shocking moment because they are epicenter celebrity.
01:35:38And one, it was cool.
01:35:39They just said that.
01:35:40And two, I was like, "Amazing.
01:35:41So I will put the group together for you.
01:35:44Come on over.
01:35:45We'll have a great time."
01:35:46But yeah, just so people realize it's a very common thing in our modern society.
01:35:49So nothing to feel ashamed about or feel bad about.
01:35:52You can make these corrective actions by doing small things like voice notes, quick calls.
01:35:57And also by making the bar so low, if you swing and whiff it and this person doesn't
01:36:05actually really want to be friends, whatever, doesn't think you're cool or they're too busy
01:36:08or whatever the fuck, they're not ready to be friends, you haven't invested in anything.
01:36:16You met somebody, you send them a few texts, whatever, it doesn't matter.
01:36:20I was just going to loop back to that thing I said about the emotions piece before.
01:36:24I understand what you mean with regards to sort of creating a philosophy, but I am still
01:36:31interested in what the practices are and how you look to prioritize the emotional wellbeing,
01:36:38the social element, if there is a spiritual element to this too, and how you come to think
01:36:46about off-spreadsheet markers of longevity and wellbeing.
01:36:57So in 2025, we did five Don't Die Summits, 1,500 people, they were all sold out.
01:37:03We brought people together and we experimented with different formats, but we brought them
01:37:08together.
01:37:09We did education courses, we did raves at seven in the morning, it was amazing, we had so much
01:37:13fun, we did group exercises, we did group therapy stuff.
01:37:18So I think 2026, we learned a lot by doing this.
01:37:21We're going to do this in 2026 where I've been actually piloting a Don't Die fam in my neighborhood.
01:37:28So I've got several friends and we had this format where we get together every week.
01:37:33First we take a shot of olive oil, ritualistic, and then we each go around and we apologize
01:37:41to our body for something we did that week.
01:37:44And so it's kind of funny, it's kind of funny, it's kind of fun.
01:37:49And then we go around and each person talks about like what's on their mind or what they're
01:37:52struggling with.
01:37:53And so it's a very like open floor supportive, it's like YPO, AA, it's a very similar format
01:38:01that's kind of stamped out through various organizations, but it's basically like small
01:38:05intimate trusted group where you can be vulnerable and there's a specific approach where you're
01:38:09focusing on Don't Die.
01:38:11But really it's about human connection, it's about sharing and what you're struggling with.
01:38:15So whether it's that or something else, we're trying to figure out how, if Don't Die is to
01:38:21become the fastest growing ideology in history, we're trying to figure out what is the path
01:38:27for that to happen.
01:38:28And so it can happen in small clusters from around the world.
01:38:30We could even have physical locations.
01:38:32We could have something like a sovereign fund where we pull our capital and we start funding
01:38:39things together.
01:38:40So we're sorting on community connection, emotional, social in 2026.
01:38:45The past couple of years have been like, how do you create something novel, sticky, distinct,
01:38:52and create a structure around it?
01:38:53And now we're going to create the wrappers.
01:38:55So it's just like the next stage of where we're at.
01:38:58Very cool.
01:38:59When we first ever spoke, however long ago that was, I asked you a question about, I didn't
01:39:08use this word, but the grief of not starting earlier.
01:39:12The potential resentment that you can place at your caregivers and your friends and your
01:39:18culture of this didn't happen earlier.
01:39:22And the entropy you started on the other side of the roller coaster, right?
01:39:26You're like, oh fuck, like I'm fighting against it as opposed to improving it.
01:39:30I can't get younger in the same way as I could have gotten, or at least slowed it down or
01:39:35whatever.
01:39:36Are you interested in your relationship with that dynamic now, a few years hence, more time
01:39:42to think what could have been, but also to think, well, I can't, by focusing on that,
01:39:48I'm losing the very time, which I'm claiming is now being more limited, that seems like
01:39:53a very stupid way to spend my life.
01:39:56Where have you come into land with, you said before, and I think it's a really good point.
01:40:01It's not too late.
01:40:02You can reverse or you slow down, like you can really, really make great progress no matter
01:40:06where you are, but the emotional connection to what could have been had I've started earlier,
01:40:11what I've done to my body, the grief, that stuff, what's your relationship with that like
01:40:16now?
01:40:17Yeah.
01:40:18I mean, as you might guess, I view this question through the moral frameworks, right?
01:40:22Basically, the premise of the question is that I'm in a low status position because of these
01:40:31preceding events, that I didn't have parents that knew health and wellness when I was a
01:40:38kid.
01:40:39I didn't understand health and wellness myself in my 20s.
01:40:42I fell prey to cultural norms that said destroy yourself, right?
01:40:47And so the way I'd evaluate any person answering your question is how skilled are they in taking
01:40:55a low status position and converting it to high status?
01:40:58How do you flip the question for me to find virtue in my place and attribute charity to
01:41:04what's preceded?
01:41:06Because really, it never makes sense for a person to wallow in grief.
01:41:12Like, yes, it makes sense to reconcile, like to be honest, like we can acknowledge that
01:41:16may have been a mistake.
01:41:18We can contemplate, we wish it wouldn't have happened, but really, you don't want to sit
01:41:25in negative emotions.
01:41:26It's just not good for you.
01:41:28You don't want to beat yourself up.
01:41:30So you can either take a step where you say, "I'm reconciled, I'm neutral, I'm fine with
01:41:38it," or you can say, "I'm going to invert it."
01:41:41But that's what I've really learned more than anything in my life, that's what I try to train
01:41:45my kids, is don't be subject, don't lose your agency and be subject to pain that is self-induced.
01:41:56You can choose how you feel.
01:41:58This is kind of like Viktor Frankl's man-search for meaning, right?
01:42:00He's in the concentration camp, and he's like, "I'm not going to let these conditions determine
01:42:05my state of mind.
01:42:06I'm going to choose that state of mind myself."
01:42:08But that's really ultimate agency, and so I'd take your question and I would invert it and
01:42:12be like, "This is the most interesting time in the history of four point whatever billion
01:42:18years that we've been on this planet.
01:42:20I am so fortunate to be alive right now, and I'm in my 40s, where I'm still in my prime,
01:42:29and I can have a meaningful impact on what happens to the human race.
01:42:33That is a possibility.
01:42:34So I wouldn't trade anything under any circumstance to trade the position I'm in right now, because
01:42:40it's the coolest moment in the history of the human race."
01:42:42And so quick inversion, and now I'm like, "Damn, pretty cool."
01:42:45I'm pumped about this situation.
01:42:47My shoulders have relaxed a little bit.
01:42:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:42:49I remember you tweeting a while ago, "Do you think you're going to die in a super ironic
01:42:53way?"
01:42:54Of course.
01:42:55Guaranteed.
01:42:56Yeah.
01:42:57How is that not possible?
01:42:59For sure.
01:43:00I mean, so this morning when I was coming here, I was opening a glass jar of sauerkraut, fermented
01:43:07sauerkraut.
01:43:08I popped it and it sliced my fingers in three places, bleeding all over the place.
01:43:12And I was like, "What if I die from a glass bottle of fermented sauerkraut?
01:43:17Would that be just beautifully ironic?"
01:43:20So yes, I hope it's spectacular.
01:43:23I hope it's really something epic and not something lame.
01:43:26Sauerkraut would be a cool way to go.
01:43:28I mean, I guess you tell me, what would be an epic...
01:43:33What hits the timeline when you're like, "Okay."
01:43:37Ready to go with that.
01:43:38That would be cool.
01:43:39I mean, sort of car action, a '70s action movie rolling down a huge cliff would be...
01:43:47That seems like a pretty cool way to go.
01:43:49Certainly not being the passenger of a plane where the pilot decides that he's sick and
01:43:54he just wants to crash it into a mountainside, that would suck.
01:43:58Something that's just me, I don't want to take anybody else with me.
01:44:02If I'm going to go up in flames, like hit by a bus, but the bus goes on.
01:44:08Caught in the act of adventure.
01:44:13You're doing your thing, you're pushing the boundaries, you're in your happy state.
01:44:18Eating fermented foods.
01:44:19Yeah.
01:44:20I think of Shackleton, and I think of his going through the Antarctic and their survival.
01:44:26They were all ready to have a noble death.
01:44:30We wouldn't have found out about it.
01:44:31They would have been gone to history, but still, they were...
01:44:34I like that kind of...
01:44:36I love those stories.
01:44:37There's a book that you may love if you like Alfred Lansing's Endurance, which is the best
01:44:41retelling of Shackleton's Crossing, I think.
01:44:44There's a wonderful one called The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart, a British
01:44:49soldier, Scottish, captured by the Japanese bridge over the River Kwai, forced labor, Hiroshima
01:44:55bomb blasts, everything, everything, everything, everything.
01:44:58And then I read Unbroken, Louis Zamperini.
01:45:02So I'd never even know, because I'm not American, right?
01:45:05So I would get Shackleton and I would get Alistair Urquhart, but I'd never get Zamperini.
01:45:11I didn't even know he existed.
01:45:12And he meets Hitler at the fucking Olympics, and he goes through all of this stuff.
01:45:17So if you like Unbroken, dude, The Forgotten Highlander will take your head off.
01:45:22Unbroken.
01:45:23That broke me.
01:45:25He's on his raft, getting shot at from the Japanese airplanes, underneath the raft, getting
01:45:31hit by sharks, back on the raft of bullet holes.
01:45:34And that's on day 142 of not eating food.
01:45:38The dude's eating all the chocolate and you're like, your best mate, yeah, steals all the
01:45:42fucking chocolate.
01:45:43Yeah, dude.
01:45:44And those stories to me are wonderful.
01:45:47I ruptured in Achilles in 2020 playing cricket, fully British.
01:45:52And asked a couple of friends that had been through some sort of similarly traumatic injuries,
01:45:59big fuck off, severe thing.
01:46:02And they said, The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday, Forgotten Highlander by Alistair
01:46:08Urquhart, Ross Edgley's book, The Art of Brazilians, which is about his swim around, he's the first
01:46:16person to swim around the UK, six hours on, six hours off.
01:46:22And then Amazon Prime documentary called Resurfaced with Andy Murray.
01:46:28Andy Murray's a tennis player, Scottish tennis player.
01:46:30And he gets a hip replacement.
01:46:34That lateral movement means that hips really get tested in tennis players.
01:46:38And he's aging out a little.
01:46:40And they try and do rehab.
01:46:44They try and do surgery.
01:46:45They try and do surgery.
01:46:46It's just not working.
01:46:47And really the only solution, I think, is maybe a ceramic socket with a steel joint.
01:46:55But it's not meant for high impact sport, it's very smooth and very reliable.
01:47:03And the outcomes are great.
01:47:04But not if you're pushing it to the sort of, you'd steal up against ceramic like porcelain
01:47:09or whatever it is.
01:47:10It's not going to last.
01:47:11Or maybe it's not.
01:47:12And it's just this journey of him going through it and he's working in his house.
01:47:16Just obsessive, just so unrelenting.
01:47:20And those sorts of stories, I think, are really empowering and really enlightening and very
01:47:27inspiring.
01:47:29And it's the ability, what I'm really interested in playing with now, is the ability to take
01:47:33that kind of inspiration and be like, fuck, I've been kicked in the nuts a good bit this
01:47:37year.
01:47:38All right, you got this.
01:47:40You can lean in.
01:47:41You can do this thing.
01:47:43And then being able to, I switch it off.
01:47:46I need to be able to switch it off.
01:47:48If I can't switch it off, then I am pressing the accelerator driving downhill.
01:47:54I'm giving myself more of the thing that I already have too much of.
01:47:58So playing with that tolerance, like a dose-dependent inspiration in that way.
01:48:03Does that make sense?
01:48:04Yeah.
01:48:05It's a U-shaped curve.
01:48:06Yeah.
01:48:07You need just too little.
01:48:08You're not doing anything.
01:48:09Too much.
01:48:10You're wide but tired.
01:48:11It's probably the skill set society needs the most help on right now.
01:48:14Because everyone is right up to the red, actually in the red zone and just there constantly.
01:48:21I think it's probably like a chronic thing of our society.
01:48:26Brian Johnson, ladies and gentlemen.
01:48:27Dude, you're great.
01:48:28I really appreciate you.
01:48:29I appreciate your friendship.
01:48:30What can people expect next, however long of yours, months, what's coming up?
01:48:37This is my prediction.
01:48:38AI is center stage already for society.
01:48:42It will continue to be center stage.
01:48:44I'm not talking about timeframe for six months or 12 months, but over the next few years,
01:48:49it's going to just continually to be evolved to be the primary thing of our attention.
01:48:54And as that happens, we are going to want the stability to understand the world in ways that
01:49:02makes us feel safe, that we have meaning and purpose, that things are stable.
01:49:08And I think this is where Don't Die will step in.
01:49:10It will be a structurally sound, coherent, emotionally resonant ideology and moral philosophy
01:49:19that actually answers the most important questions for us as a species individually, collectively,
01:49:23with AI, with the planet, like we're just due for a revolution.
01:49:26So yeah, in the coming years, that's what I hope to bring to the world is like that we
01:49:30actually can find coherence in our existence and realize the spectacular nature of this
01:49:38moment, the most precious thing that's ever existed.
01:49:41And it's like really ours.
01:49:42We, I guess, an invitation to sober up, realize how special this is.
01:49:47And for us, like we need to prove ourselves worthy of the future.
01:49:52We oftentimes don't think about, like we want to be, we want to demonstrate our value to
01:50:01our peers, to our coworkers, to our family, to our partners.
01:50:05I think that same relationship exists to the future, that it really does ask us to rise
01:50:09up.
01:50:10And so I hope, above all, I hope I'm a positive influence of people's lives, that when they
01:50:17find themselves in moments of struggle or weakness, they've got somebody in their court saying
01:50:21like, you can do this.
01:50:23And yeah, so I'm just really excited about what's happening.
01:50:26I feel like I've been working my entire life at this moment and I'm excited to play the
01:50:30game.
01:50:31- I'm excited to see what happens, man.
01:50:32Just don't do the fucking, don't start wearing white robes, grow your hair out.
01:50:34Like I don't want to see the cult leader pivot, but what I do think is cool is the like sanguine
01:50:42self-awareness thing.
01:50:43I think that's really important to like, just read it out.
01:50:47You mentioned a couple of resources, like a food guide or something.
01:50:51Is there any, are there any cool lead magnetic bits that people can snag that?
01:50:54- Yeah, so I'll give you, I'll give you the food guide.
01:50:57I'm also, I'm publishing, I have a website protocol@brianjohnson.co.com and I'm hopefully in the next couple
01:51:04of weeks, I'll repost all my updated stuff.
01:51:07So if you wanted to see my journey and what I'm doing now and why, I'll have it there for
01:51:11you.
01:51:12So like a free guide.
01:51:13And I'm also writing a book.
01:51:14So don't die, so I'm halfway through and it's basically going to be like, hopefully a guide.
01:51:21And then, yeah, I'm trying to make this easy and I know it's a lot.
01:51:24And then also we just raised 60 million for blueprint.
01:51:27And so-
01:51:28- Oh yeah, what's going on with that?
01:51:29What is that?
01:51:30- Yeah, so basically blueprint is don't die in action.
01:51:33And so in the same way where you say, if I want to go to this destination, I put in an
01:51:37address, go, and it tells me what streets to go down or where's the construction, where's
01:51:41the crashes, blueprint is going to be basically like AI for your health.
01:51:47It's like you say, I want to be healthy.
01:51:50And we say, come on in, we got you.
01:51:52And so it will take us some time to build that.
01:51:54But that's what I have today with my team of doctors.
01:51:56Like I just follow a practice where we measure me, we get the data, we look at evidence and
01:52:01we say, do this, do this, do this, do this, exactly.
01:52:04So I don't have to chase all these esoteric hard things.
01:52:06So blueprint is basically like autonomous health for humans, where I just say like, I want
01:52:10to be healthy and you get into a system and now we just run the data evidence repeat again.
01:52:14So hopefully like that's-
01:52:16- Exciting time.
01:52:17So it feels like, I know you're going back to where you started back into founder mode.
01:52:21I hope that you don't take your eye off what the ball is supposed to be with regards to
01:52:27that, like the temptation man to be, ooh, we could build it more and this is time it's
01:52:32good.
01:52:33This time it's for humanity.
01:52:34You go, well, yeah, the service is good, but so is looking after like serving you first.
01:52:38- Yeah.
01:52:39You're like the one thing I care to accomplish in life.
01:52:42Like everything else can go by the wayside.
01:52:45The one thing is what is high status?
01:52:48That's the only game I care to play.
01:52:50And so from specifically from the frame of, from the perspective of the year 2,500, when
01:52:55they look back at this moment and they're looking at moments to say a Plato, Aristotle, Renaissance,
01:53:02like they'll say a new era was born of a new status seeking thing.
01:53:09And that's otherwise like the entrepreneurship stuff.
01:53:11Like I really enjoy it.
01:53:13It's been my jam, but that's not where I want this to work.
01:53:15I want it to be successful.
01:53:16It's actually a practical manifestation, but I have one objective in existence is that.
01:53:20- Fuck yeah.
01:53:21Ryan, I appreciate you man.
01:53:22Until next time.
01:53:23I'm looking forward to the book.
01:53:24- Thanks man.
01:53:25Thank you very much for making it to the end of an entire episode.
01:53:30You are not sufficiently TikTok-brained that you've switched off during it.
01:53:35And that's something to be proud of.
01:53:37Maybe that's the best thing you've achieved today and I'm here with you.
01:53:40Why not go two for two and watch one of my favorite episodes right here.