00:00:00Why is self-awareness a problem?
00:00:02Self-awareness is a problem, well, first of all, I think it's important to recognize that we often think about self-awareness as a good thing.
00:00:09We generally think about it as a gradient, so we might refer to somebody as being more or less self-aware than others and more is typically assumed as better.
00:00:20When I'm referring to self-awareness, I'm referring to just the fact that we are aware of a self at all.
00:00:26And so the mere fact that we have a certain form of consciousness that provides us that sense of self is a problem for a number of reasons.
00:00:35First and foremost, we've arrived with a sense of self-awareness by a process of evolution that doesn't really care.
00:00:45Obviously care I'm using loosely there because evolution doesn't care at all about anything besides it's just continuation, propagation.
00:00:53But the experience of consciousness and self-awareness from the first-person perspective is not central to the reason for why self-awareness and consciousness arrived in the form that humans experience it.
00:01:07And so we are often at odds with the fundamental nature of reality in existence by virtue of the self-awareness, in my view at least.
00:01:17And the reason for that is as a self who is aware of that self, we attach to that self, we attach to the ideas of that self, we attach to people and things and our desire to make sense of our perception and understanding through all of the concepts that we form by nature of having that degree of awareness.
00:01:41And yet, reality in existence is fickle, chaotic, uncertain, we're going to lose everybody and everything through time or distance, decay, age or illness or death.
00:01:58And so we find ourselves in this sort of cosmic ocean where the waves are crashing on our heads constantly and yet we must continue because we are also a part of the same substrate that built us, that needs continuation.
00:02:20So it puts us in this very peculiar position where we can feel the intensity and pain and suffering that seems from a conscious individual entity terrible and yet we just refuse to give up, we must endure.
00:02:38And so that's why it's problematic but also obviously I see the other side of that coin and the paradox of self-awareness in my view is that self-awareness, self-consciousness, self-apprehension is the most horrific, terrifying thing in the known universe.
00:02:58And yet it is the most beautiful thing in the known universe because as far as we're aware, it's the only thing that allows conceptual understanding of existence and reality.
00:03:10So we can form the very idea of beauty and wonder and meaning and purpose and hope and it seems to me to be necessary that the first part, the other half of that coin is in the equation for the second half to be possible.
00:03:27Yeah, you've got this line, "Self-awareness is a sort of poison that we each consume upon birth."
00:03:33Yeah, I believe our birthright is the horrific qualities of self-awareness, a poison, but that we as almost magicians or alchemists can transmute into gold, into art and beauty and wonder and love and all that.
00:03:54And so it makes you want to, you know, you love and hate it in the fullest possible form of those words at the same time.
00:04:03At least obviously that's my perspective.
00:04:05I know maybe some people might see life and existence as purely positive and beautiful, some might see it as purely negative and horrific and somewhere in between there's a spectrum.
00:04:15But in my view, it has to be both at the same time and that is the paradoxical nature of it.
00:04:22How much of that do you think is just us all coming up with some fancy philosophical explanation for our own idiosyncratic experience of the world?
00:04:32That you have a bit of a grasp of the awe and a bit of a grasp of the dread and some people are almost all dread and some people are almost all awe and each of them kind of create their own philosophical views of the world and the universe based around just,
00:04:48well, this is my typical daily affect, this is my typical experience of things.
00:04:53I think that it's definitely important to not universalize your own perspective, your own experiences and your own way of thinking.
00:05:03It's easy to assume that the way you think, both in the most literal of sense and in the most abstract of sense is the way most people do and it's not the case.
00:05:16There's a huge spectrum and variety of modes of thought that people experience and operate through and so people might be more visually inclined, people might be more linguistically inclined, people might be a more feeling orientation of the world.
00:05:31So just on that level alone, there's a wide variety and spectrum of experience of thought.
00:05:37And so we have to start there and recognizing that our own fundamental experience of the world and reality is not going to be universal in the way that we might project or assume.
00:05:48If consciousness is a mystery that can't understand itself, does that mean that the human condition is just fundamentally tragic?
00:05:58Well, that's at the heart or a heart of the paradox.
00:06:02It's a multi-hearted paradox, I would say.
00:06:08So it is a part of the tragedy or it is partly a tragedy, perhaps is a better way of putting it in the sense that, yeah, I think that consciousness from the first person perspective, which is naturally the limit of consciousness, right?
00:06:23You can't, as far as I could possibly conceive, there's no reality world being entity phenomenon in which a consciousness could perceive itself in the world without its consciousness.
00:06:36And so it's a feedback loop in that sense.
00:06:39And so it'll get increasingly close to comprehending the nature of itself, but it'll never breach.
00:06:49It's sort of that Zeno's paradox of the arrow where it'll get increasingly close, but it's always infinitely far away.
00:06:56And that's sort of how I see consciousness attempting to comprehend itself.
00:07:00It's like, can you make sense of an inch with an inch, a minute with a minute?
00:07:04No, it's just the same thing trying to measure itself with itself.
00:07:09And so that is tragic in that sense, but also on the flip side of it, it's what fuels the unending inquiry about what it means to be a conscious entity and what it means to be, in our case, a human.
00:07:24And so that's the beauty if you see it that way, because what else is there to do and make interesting about existence other than the exploration of the nature of existence?
00:07:35I mean, maybe some people would think that we'll just sort of sit around the surface and that's fun with margaritas and sit by the pool and all that.
00:07:44And I totally get that.
00:07:46But I think there is something very riveting and the deepest experiences of wonder come from those explorations that are, from my view, an infinite landscape of possibilities, questions and answers that will never satisfy, will never fulfill, will never reach some sort of peak.
00:08:08That landscape is flat, but there's just so much territory to explore.
00:08:14Is there a way to become self-aware without it becoming self-destructive?
00:08:22I think so.
00:08:23I think that it's a spectrum.
00:08:27It's a gradient of, you start from maybe a very, I don't want to say a low level of self-awareness because that reduces it.
00:08:36It's not like that.
00:08:38But maybe reflectiveness about that self-awareness where you can realize that and then it might, there's a certain experience of difficulties and confusions and sufferings that they are just, they exist for themselves and you struggle to justify them, you struggle to deal with them.
00:09:03And I think if you continue on that path, you get to a point where you become more comfortable with the confusions and the uncertainties.
00:09:15And you don't get better at justifying them, you don't get better at dealing with the problems of being a conscious entity in the world, but you get better at recognizing that the lack of answers, the lack of stability, the lack of rigidness is par for the course and par for the beauty of the course.
00:09:38And that I think is the ultimate goal to strive for when it comes to these sorts of topics and questions.
00:09:45I think a lot of people have this sense that the more that they learn about themselves, the more difficult life becomes, that there's a kind of enjoyment, freedom, there's a freedom in naivety, would be a way to put it, and that the less naivety that they have, the more challenging the world seems to be.
00:10:10There's complexity and responsibility and self-doubt and self-esteem issues come in and there's an awareness of what I could have done, standards kind of begin to rise, but in kind of squirrelly ways about virtue.
00:10:24If you've got a critical mind, you find an ever-increasing number of ways to derogate success, even if you managed to achieve the success, because you were aware of all of the ways that you might have lied or cajoled or coerced or not been fully virtuous en route to achieving the thing, whereas previously you were just happy to have fucking done it.
00:10:43And then, yeah, this tighter and tighter spiral, this ever-increasing resolution that you look at the world with, I think to a lot of people feels like a personal curse.
00:10:52I think it feels like an increase in self-awareness just equates to an increase in suffering.
00:10:59Yeah, I mean, first of all, I resonate with that reaction and I think there's validity in that reaction and if you feel that way, that's justified, that makes sense to me.
00:11:13I feel that way often, I think most people feel that way when they start to, like you said, unravel the absurdity of a lot of what we are and what we're doing.
00:11:24And there is perhaps a better version of being, of existence from a human perspective that dulls that, that dilutes that, but unfortunately you don't really get to choose whether or not you are or are not thinking about those things, experiencing those thoughts and feelings.
00:11:47So you don't think, in my view, you don't think thoughts arrive in your head after a sort of conveyor belt of experiences and neurology and all of that.
00:11:58And so you ultimately wind up with these questions and thoughts and concerns, a certain proximity to those thoughts and concerns that become very difficult to experience and manage.
00:12:11And it might make you envious of the idea of not feeling that way and not experiencing that proximity.
00:12:21But unfortunately, once you start worrying about something or once you start thinking about something, that can of worms is fully opened and you can't close it, you have to figure out how to deal with it, how to move forward.
00:12:32And I find that the best way to deal with those sorts of cans of worms or those tunnels is forward, not back, because backwards, that end is closed in terms of the tunnel metaphor.
00:12:45You can't return to some form of yourself, some version of yourself that hasn't already wondered, questioned, pondered or become concerned about those sorts of things.
00:12:56And so I see that it's quintessential to not put those things aside if you're experiencing the sufferings and pains of almost self-alienation and self-confusion.
00:13:11You have to move forward and figure out how to, in some people's cases, it's maybe resolving them through practical and tactical methodology.
00:13:21And in other people's cases, it might be more of an embracement of those feelings.
00:13:27And by embracing certain thoughts and certain experiences, if possible, I do find that you can reduce their gravity, their force on your head and neck.
00:13:40What about regret? I think one of the things that comes along as a side dish with quite a lot of self-awareness is people's increase in rumination, sort of whimsical, wistful remembering and regret.
00:14:01What have you learned about regret?
00:14:02Well, I think regret is very interesting because regret implies that you could have done differently.
00:14:09You could have done better than you had in a particular moment of your life, which in my view, I get the impulse, I get the sentiment.
00:14:19But if you rewind the clock of reality, 100% of the time you're arriving at that same moment as your same self with the same brain, the same physiology, the same information and the same external circumstances.
00:14:35There's no way you could have made any different of a decision.
00:14:39And so regret is sort of an understandable illusion of our consciousness where it makes us feel like there's a lot of possibilities and we can be diluted by our hindsight and our ability to reference back and forth between time.
00:14:55But there is no world in which you didn't make all the decisions you've made, putting aside maybe quantum multi-world theories.
00:15:06But in this world, the world that we're talking about and in, there is no version that you could have done anything differently.
00:15:13And that brings into sort of the concept of free will, which personally I don't believe in, in the sense that we typically refer to it as.
00:15:25But yeah, if you consider free will as a part of the equation, and even if you don't, I see no world, I see no logic that makes sense of regret being.
00:15:35It's an understandable reaction, but certainly not a rational reaction, which I know we oscillate between emotion, feeling and logic.
00:15:45But I just think that regret exists in an illusory realm of our perception.
00:15:51It's a weird one because I think the free will argument is in an interesting category.
00:15:57It's something that might be literally true, but figuratively useless, that we might be a deterministic set of dominoes all the way from the big bang until this conversation right here.
00:16:10But it's functionally pointless to believe that as far as I can see.
00:16:15You need to go so deep into non-attachment to I couldn't have done any differently, but you need to not overshoot into nihilism and fatalism.
00:16:25And it's just fucking, it's too hard.
00:16:27But if we stay, if we shelve the discussion around determinism and you say, okay, you get to go back, you didn't make a decision before you got to the point at which you made a decision.
00:16:44Or you didn't do a thing, or you did do a thing after or before you wish that you had.
00:16:51And you want to do it differently.
00:16:52As far as I can see, reading your perspective, regret is kind of like a refusal to accept the limits of foresight.
00:16:58You couldn't have chosen differently under the same conditions and an acceptance of necessity kind of helps to dissolve regret.
00:17:07I think that's very well put.
00:17:08I think, and to your point, you could even put aside the potential deterministic nature of reality.
00:17:16You're still limited by the same constraints in any given moment.
00:17:21It doesn't mean that maybe there's some sort of deterministic ultimate reality that was going to pan out the way it has and did.
00:17:28But it does mean that you are always limited in every moment by a set of constraints.
00:17:35Your physiology, the condition of your mind, your emotional state, the information you have, the most recent influences you've experienced.
00:17:44All of that is going to cause you to make a decision.
00:17:48And whether it's built into the laws or the nature of the unfolding of reality is irrelevant at that point.
00:17:56It's just you are going to make the same decision over and over again.
00:18:01To regret having made that decision is to deny the very fact that you're always going to be limited by a set of constraints.
00:18:08Unless you intentionally decided to make the less viable decision, the worst decision in that moment, which I mean obviously there are masochists and so forth.
00:18:19But for the most part, people are trying to make good decisions that make sense to them in any given moment.
00:18:25And so you're always trying your best given those constraints.
00:18:28And it's absurd to think that you could have done or would have done any better.
00:18:33And like you put very well, it's sort of this foresight/hindsight equilibrium that you just sort of stretch and contort to make the most sense for your current reality.
00:18:46And I also think another important point of what regret tends to point to is a lack of embrace around the fact that there are no conditions of your life that are going to resolve the fundamental tensions that we often experience.
00:19:02Which is, you know, we want a sense of certainty, a sense of happiness and ultimate resolve.
00:19:09A sense of having made all the right decisions, having done everything right and all these pieces are in order.
00:19:16That's a sort of underlying desire that we all experience.
00:19:20Some, you know, maybe recognize that that's not going to be the case or not.
00:19:25But I think there's a proportional relation to how willing you are to accept that you're never going to get out of the sort of hamster wheel of desire and suffering and boredom and anxiety.
00:19:40And how much you might regret what you've done and how your life is gone.
00:19:45This episode is brought to you by Whoop.
00:19:47I've been wearing Whoop for over five years now, way before they were a partner on the show. I've actually tracked over 1600 days of my life with it, according to the app, which is insane.
00:19:59And it's the only wearable I've ever stuck with because it tracks everything that matters, sleep, workouts, recovery, breathing, heart rate, even your steps.
00:20:08And the new 5.0 is the best version.
00:20:11You get all the benefits that make Whoop indispensable, 7% smaller, but now it's also got a 14 day battery life and has healthspan to track your habits, how they affect your pace of aging.
00:20:22It's got hormonal insights for ladies.
00:20:24I'm a huge, huge fan of Whoop.
00:20:25That's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with.
00:20:27And best of all, you can join for free.
00:20:30Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop 5.0 strap.
00:20:33Plus you get your first month for free and there's a 30 day money back guarantee.
00:20:37So you can buy it for free.
00:20:39Try it for free.
00:20:40If you do not like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back.
00:20:44Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30 day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.
00:20:53That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom.
00:20:57You've got that, you know that Cormac McCarthy line, "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."?
00:21:03I do not know that line, but I love it.
00:21:05I love how that sounds.
00:21:06I fucking love that line, "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."?
00:21:12That's beautiful.
00:21:13No, I love that.
00:21:13Well, you've got that story about the guy asking for directions, which is pretty similar.
00:21:18Yes.
00:21:18And so, yeah, I mean, I've, I've written a story called The Nova Effect.
00:21:22And I've also done a lot of similar explorations around the idea that, you know, we basically never know, this is sort of playing off a Kurt Vonnegut line.
00:21:33We never know the good luck from the bad luck until the story's over.
00:21:37And for, you know, for all of us, we don't, the story never ends until we're not even around.
00:21:41And so you never quite can discern what was good and what was bad for you or for a collective until it's reached its, you know, automation.
00:21:50And yeah, that goes for each of our individual lives where it's the same case.
00:21:54It's we feel in any given moment that some good fortune is going to lead ultimately to good fortune forever thereafter.
00:22:05But that's not how life works or reality works.
00:22:07It's a sort of spurring off of multiple lines that one good thing, one advantage could lead you to a misfortune or a disadvantage and vice versa.
00:22:18And so there is, you know, you always want to feel good when good things happen, but there is, and you always, you don't always want to feel bad when bad things happen, but you do ultimately tend to feel bad when bad things happen.
00:22:29But there is, here's the dual sided coin of the different phenomenon where, you know, if you know that when good things happen, it's still, there's still more game to play, more life to live, you're going to be willing to accept the potential for more trials and errors and all that, which is not so great.
00:22:48But knowing that when bad things happen, that's not, it's not going to just be misfortune forever thereafter as well, gives you some hope and gives you a sense of, you know, the possibility that things could be directly related to that, that ultimately save you in whatever sense save you might mean.
00:23:06Yeah, you never know what worse luck or bad luck has saved you from.
00:23:09I wrote an essay today actually, and I want to read you this thing because I thought it was really interesting.
00:23:16Alright. Adversity is a terrible thing to waste. Almost all of the biggest periods of growth in your life have germinated from your lowest points. Once shock, grief, sadness, and fear subside, more energetic emotions arise, pain, resentment, bitterness, anger, and a chip on your shoulder.
00:23:34Change is hard and deeply fundamental change requires an insane amount of activation energy, far more than is available by just wanting it a lot. This is why people change so much after losing a parent, enduring a betrayal, losing a job, or going through a breakup.
00:23:49Not because the past version of their world has been stripped away alone, but because they finally have enough fuel to get their new life off the launchpad. In the mid nineties, there was a single mother living in a near poverty home in Edinburgh. When she left her first marriage, it wasn't a quiet parting. She's described the relationship as abusive. She fled to Portugal with her baby daughter and a suitcase that contained the early chapters of a book that she was working on.
00:24:12At one point, her ex-husband hid the manuscript, trying to prevent her from leaving with it. She was clinically depressed and contemplating suicide. She couldn't afford to heat her flat properly, so she pushed a pram to cafes to write while her daughter slept. The manuscript was rejected by 12 publishers. That's 12 people telling her in different ways that it wasn't good enough. The rejection wasn't abstract, it was survival level. If the book failed, so did her last attempt at building a life. The humiliation of those refutals became momentum.
00:24:42JK Rowling went on to sell 500 million copies in the Harry Potter series globally and became richer than the queen. But here's the uncomfortable truth. Not all adversity becomes growth. Some people are crushed by it. Adversity is fuel, not destiny. The difference is what you do with the surplus emotion. If that energy isn't directed, it curdles into rumination. The same fuel that could power a transformation can just as easily power self-destruction.
00:25:07There's also a time window, because pain calcifies. The chip on your shoulder becomes your identity. The story of what happened becomes the story of who you are. Anger gets you moving, but it can't steer. It's rocket fuel, not guidance. Eventually, the chip on your shoulder has to become purpose. As a TL;DR, the worst thing that's happened to you might be the only thing powerful enough to change you. Pain is temporary and fuel is rare, so if you're going through a hard time, don't waste it. You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from.
00:25:37Beautiful. I think that's beautiful. I'm curious to think about or to ask you about what you think allows someone to create that differentiation or to act on that differentiation between it becoming a collapsible effect and a fueling effect. What do you think it is that allows some people to utilize those adversities versus—yeah, go ahead.
00:26:06Great question. I'm always hesitant of giving some pithy philosophical answer to this stuff, because I think so much of it is just practical. Spending less time on your own sounds so dumb. You go through a breakup. Spend less time on your own, man. It's important for you to have your friends come around with tacos and ice cream and watch shit movies. That is an important part of the healing process. It's important for you to stay busy. It's important for you to reconnect with the hobbies that you had as a kid.
00:26:33Start playing football again or pickleball or whatever it is that you like to do, martial arts or running or whatever, and to do it in a group. That will carry a lot of the difference between somebody who that pain calcifies and it turns into stasis.
00:26:50Basically, what I'm pushing toward is a bias for action, but it's a bias for action when your capacity for action has been severely diminished. So you can't act as easily. Your one-rep max has been chopped down by 95%, and you're really going to struggle to lift anything, even the smallest weight. So what do you do when you have a weight that you can't bear while you spread the load between other people?
00:27:12So I think relying on other people, but the broader lesson, not everybody has other people, needs other people in this way. The broad lesson, I think, is a bias for action. How can I just -- what's that line? Anxiety hates a moving target.
00:27:28Action is the antidote to anxiety, and it's so fucking true. It sounds like maybe I'm running away from my problems, maybe I'm hiding them in the fog, and that's a lesson that for a lot of people probably is accurate. They use busyness and chaos as a way to sort of force down whatever it is that they should be thinking about more deeply.
00:27:50But I get the sense that if anybody's a fan of pursuit of wonder or modern wisdom, that they have the opposite fucking problem. They're like the David Goggins of rumination. They're the Bonnie Blue of rumination. They do not need to be told to spend more time thinking. They need to be told to have a bias for action.
00:28:11So I think learning to trust yourself again is done through experimentation and evidence. Once you've got just a little bit of that moving, that tends to help. I certainly think not being afraid to use some of the more negative emotions, some of the stuff like bitterness and resentment and anger, this is one of the paradoxes or one of the disadvantages of self-awareness that you don't like these sort of darker emotions.
00:28:41You think, "I should transcend these. I should be sufficiently elevated that I'm not tapping into this. This is a more base version of me. It's juvenile. It's petty. This is a version of me that I don't like." I get that, but what did you use to get yourself here?
00:28:58Because for the most part, you probably use that kind of fuel and then, "Okay, it's pretty toxic. If I hold on to it for too long, I probably shouldn't still be thinking at 45 years old about what the kids said to me in school. Fine." But that also means that you don't have that fuel tank anymore. And this fuel isn't going to be there forever. It's not. The anger will subside. The resentment will wane. Your bitterness will eventually dissolve. What are you going to be left with?
00:29:24The time will have passed anyway. That's some pretty fucking potent fuel. So I'm saying just go in and maybe just fucking tap, tap, tap into the side of the fuel tank for a little bit and make use of it.
00:29:40Look, you're going to look back on this period and it can either be some kinetic spark at the beginning of growth. You can be your own primer switch for a hydrogen bomb or you can self-work your way through it and I'm sure it will be great. But I don't know. It was just an idea and especially that J.K. Rowling story is so fucking good. After I read that Cormac McCarthy quote, which I've been wanting to write about for ages, I need to fucking put something together.
00:30:05It's not true for all people in all situations at all times, but I do think it's pretty fucking useful.
00:30:11Yeah. No, and I agree. I mean, I think that it's, like you said, obviously not true for everybody all the time, but you don't know if it's true for you until you do everything in your power to attempt to make it so.
00:30:25And so you ultimately are up against zero possibility by not trying to take everything in your power to make adversity worth it for you and worth it for your circumstances and your goals.
00:30:38That's a zero percent chance if you don't try and then you have some percentage of chance of things working out for you and being able to transmute that adversity into the ultimate good fortune, the most you've ever seen in your life.
00:30:53And so I agree that approaching it from a fuel-minded perspective is really the only viable way.
00:31:03And that brings up questions about whether or not certain people can even recognize that and whether or not it's going to be—there are degrees of environmental factors that weigh down on people that make it very difficult to, even if you might recognize good luck versus bad luck is not always the end-all be-all.
00:31:29There are still environmental and external factors that make it very challenging for somebody to actualize that potentiality in adversity, and continual adversity is one of those things.
00:31:45Yeah, dude, I mean, it's all well and good me talking about the survivorship bias of JK Rowling's 500 million bucks, but there is a lot of people that have not just one kick in the nuts, but a series of them that are so frequent that their ability to even lift the lightest weight kind of gets degraded.
00:32:04But the alternative is to just keel over, and this is me saying it as a guy that's been kicked in the nuts a lot over the last couple of years, you literally do have only two choices, and one of them is to give up and the other one is to do whatever the opposite of that is.
00:32:18And fuck that, dude. Jesus Christ. Absolutely fuck that. What's that rage, rage against the dying of the light?
00:32:26You might as well, because you've literally got nothing else to do, and the fucking time is going to pass in any case, so you might as well send it.
00:32:35I agree 100%. I think it's important to recognize survivorship bias, but also to recognize as an individual that if you're still alive, you're a survivor in some sense, and as long as you're alive, there's hope.
00:32:48Well, let me give you this one. You know what the fucking ultimate inversion of the survivorship bias is? Every person that gave up.
00:32:56Right.
00:32:57Every person that reaches survivorship bias is a mark on the wall for somebody that didn't give up.
00:33:03Absolutely.
00:33:04If you want to guarantee that you are not a part of the survivorship bias numbers, you can just give up, and that would be fine.
00:33:12Again, that creates a pressure. I understand that that makes people go, "Fuck, it's all on me, and that's not fair, and things are hard, and it's hard for her. It wasn't as hard for her as it is for me, and I've got this thing."
00:33:22Get it. Get it. But I want to see you win, and I would rather see you win and be in discomfort than see you lose and fucking keel over.
00:33:32100%. You can carry both those thoughts in the same head at the same time. You can recognize that there is a survivorship bias. A lot of people who try fully to the maximum ability are going to face continual adversity, and it's not going to pan out.
00:33:50You can also recognize that as an individual person, it's better to not weigh that case heavily. It's better to weigh the cases of the JK Rowling's more heavily in the pursuit of the counterbalance of that dynamic to inspire you to try everything you can and to continue forward towards what makes meaning out of the chaos of your life more viable, more possible.
00:34:16And to do that, in my view, and I recognize there's maybe a tone here, but to do that until the bitter end, if you want to do anything, and you have a preference, a priority, a sense of meaning, an orientation toward meaning, whatever, like you said, you have your time, and until the clock goes to zero, until the lights turn out,
00:34:42just keep going for whatever it is that you care about and whatever it is that makes sense to you and is worthwhile. There's no prescription to what that might be. What that source of meaning and worthwhileness need not be some sort of ungodly achievement from a societal level.
00:35:02It could be a beautiful relationship, a beautiful family. It could be a simple, quiet life. Whatever it is for you to continue onward towards achieving that, maximizing that, working towards the maintenance of that, whatever you're up against, you have your time and you ought to use it wisely to manifest that.
00:35:25Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset. Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.
00:35:44They've got 50 types of NAs, including IPAs, Goldens, and even limited releases like a cocktail-inspired Paloma and Moscow Mule. And here's the thing, you can drink them anytime. Late nights, early mornings, watching sports, playing sports, doesn't matter. No hangover, no compromise.
00:36:00And that is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or, best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door. Right now, you can get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom.
00:36:23Given the fact that we can never step outside of our own minds, how should that change the way that we treat our beliefs?
00:36:31I think that, and I obviously agree with the fact that not only can we not obviously step out of our own minds, but there's a huge implication to that. We will never obtain objective truth, in my view, as a consequence of that fact.
00:36:53Humility and almost a love of uncertainty is the only appropriate response to the fact that there's just no way that you can get out of the tunneled vision of your specific mind.
00:37:11And then your own mind has sort of been molded and mapped according to a particular condition of geography, of culture, of history. And there's been no moment as far as, you know, if we sort of rewind the clock, every stage of history has presented a similar ensemble of ignorance, of futility, of wrongness, all that.
00:37:36And so you must recognize that as individuals and as a collective, at any given time in any given space, we're up against this contorted, chiseled out view of reality that's a pinhole size.
00:37:53And to have rigid beliefs, have a sense of certainty, I think is a less than ideal response to that condition.
00:38:09And this isn't to say that someone ought to be totally nebulous about everything they think and feel and believe. You can be convictive and confident in life while also not ever being dead set and final about a belief or set of beliefs.
00:38:29And so there's a sort of essence of confidence and conviction that can carry through across a spectrum of ideas and beliefs. And the importance is not the individual belief, but the continuation of exploration and curiosity and openness and humility.
00:38:49I feel personally that that's a sort of essential fundamental quality, for lack of better words, a sort of wisdom.
00:38:59What about choice anxiety? Because I get the sense that people who have a lot of self-awareness, again, we've sort of touched on, I know how much better I could have been, I know all of the different optionality that lays out in front of me.
00:39:14How do you come to think about netting down choice anxiety as a deeply self-aware person?
00:39:26You're sort of referring to the paradox of choice, if you will, right? See, I don't know if I have a good answer to that because, first of all, I struggle with it. I think the best way to deal with choice anxiety is to recognize the degree of your, at what point are your desires no longer serving you?
00:39:53And once you recognize that ceiling, the amount of choices that you need to consider can reduce.
00:40:01So if I think that I'm on an infinite conveyor belt of desires and satisfaction, desire, satisfaction, over and over and over, then there is an infinite number of choices that can satisfy or can play into that conveyor belt phenomenon.
00:40:17But if you recognize that there is a certain limit to which your minimum quality of experience is achieved in life, you can start to redirect your decision-making towards a smaller number of options for different reasons than just like, you know, if you go to a grocery store, there's obviously an infinite number, not literally, but nearly an infinite number of choices of cereal and everything else.
00:40:46And if you regard cereal as a reasonable proxy of your quality of life, you might stand in that aisle forever.
00:40:55But if you recognize that cereal is not going to serve you, it's not going to serve your quality of life, then you pick one and move on.
00:41:04And then you recognize that there is still a difficulty around decision-making in other areas of your life that you're going to ruminate on and struggle with, but you can reduce the amount of decisions that are relevant to you by recognizing the sort of ceiling around how much your decisions are going to change the quality of your experience.
00:41:25And I'm somebody who believes that it's much more like I want to make decisions that allow me to keep going.
00:41:34And I mean that in both the most basic literal sense and then sort of a more abstract sense, which is, you know, I want to decouple my awareness from my desire when I'm making decisions about what's going to allow me to get up in the morning and still care.
00:41:49And then also what's going to allow me to experience some continual fuel as you put it in your essay.
00:41:55And so there's no clean way of totally absolving yourself from the paradox of choice and the anxiety around decision-making unless you sort of you can kind of oscillate back and forth between the foresight of or the anxiety around decision-making and the hindsight of regret.
00:42:13You can refer to your regrets to remember the absurdity of your anxiety right now.
00:42:18But I understand there's maybe a degree of impracticality there.
00:42:21But I do think that just recognizing that there is like every option in life for everything from cars to cereal to clothes to relationship partners to friends to careers, you can start to chisel those down by recognizing that so much of that is not what you care about.
00:42:43And, you know, you decide what you care about or you end up caring about what you care about, but then you chisel those things out and you're still left with a huge chunk of decision-making possibilities, but it's maybe a little bit more manageable.
00:42:55Oliver Berkman had this question, "How much should you care about things?"
00:42:59Answer, "I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's not as much as possible about everything all of the time."
00:43:08I think, yeah, that's like the curse of the over-optimizer, somebody who, just for everything at every opportunity, I have a friend who is huge into credit card points.
00:43:21You've got every different airline and he knows to use this card for this flight and then if he goes to this supermarket, he can get an additional 3% and then he gets to fly for his whole family for free and all of this stuff.
00:43:32And one of his best friends is the most simple person, "Oh, you must have a complex system just like a mutual friend."
00:43:41He's like, "No, I just decided that there was an area I had to consciously be de-optimized in and that was just one of the ones.
00:43:50I can't pick it for everything all of the time."
00:43:52And the advantage of that is when you make the big decision around, "I'm not going to bother about this at all," all of the sub-decisions fall away.
00:44:01If you can relinquish it.
00:44:03And there is a power in letting go.
00:44:05It's the same sensation anybody's had if they've left a bad relationship that they go, "That thing and all of the decisions and all of the rumination around it wasn't serving me.
00:44:16And by letting go of it, I feel liberated.
00:44:19Isn't that great?"
00:44:20So, yeah, it's a funny blend for that.
00:44:26You mentioned anxiety there. Do you think anxiety is just the natural consequence of seeing reality clearly and being a deep thinker then?
00:44:35I would even go so far to say that you don't have to add that last part about being a deep thinker.
00:44:41I would think anxiety is a sort of fundamental consequence of being aware of reality on any level.
00:44:49And it only goes up from there.
00:44:51I know that people have worse cases and experiences of anxiety.
00:44:57But the idea that somebody could live and not – and this is me projecting my own experience, universalizing it and assuming everybody's the same, and I recognize that.
00:45:08But I do find it very hard to imagine that anxiety is not a sort of building block of consciousness and self-awareness from a human perspective.
00:45:18Because everything – I mean, when we're talking about decision-making, we're talking about regrets, we're talking about adversity, all these things.
00:45:26Everything is this hodgepodge of chaos and uncertainty that a singular framework of perspective is trying to control and make sense of.
00:45:37And what could be more anxiety-inducing than that? Trying to filter an ocean of possibility into a tiny pinhole of desire and preference and hope and idealization.
00:45:55So I would think that if you're that pinhole, there's a lot to be worried about.
00:46:02Is the pursuit of truth really about truth or more about a psychological security then?
00:46:09It feels to me like our desire for truth is a fear response to the uncertainty of the future.
00:46:17I absolutely agree.
00:46:19Personally, I think that everything that humans do and humanity has done is never in and of itself.
00:46:28It's never for itself. It's based on some preference.
00:46:31And so the desire for truth is not because we care so much about truth.
00:46:38In my view, it's because we care so much about what truth will provide us.
00:46:43And that is a quelling of the uncertainty and the unknowability of existence and our relationship with it.
00:46:50We want to know that everything is going to be okay, both now and forever thereafter.
00:46:55That's why heaven exists. That's why religions exist. That's why philosophies exist.
00:46:59And so the pursuit of truth is an attempt to bring down the heavens and make it make sense right now
00:47:07so that we can feel comfortable as conscious beings.
00:47:11And so, yeah, no, truth is not, in my view, a desire in and of itself.
00:47:16It's a sort of proxy byproduct of the desire to produce uncertainty and unknowability.
00:47:25Well, get back to talking in just one second. But first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem.
00:47:31They play a huge role in your energy, focus and performance.
00:47:34But most people have no idea what theirs are or what to do if something's off, which is why I partnered with function
00:47:40because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body twice a year.
00:47:46There are lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers.
00:47:49They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan.
00:47:56Seeing your testosterone levels and dozens of other biomarkers charted across the course of a year with actionable insights to genuinely improve them
00:48:03gives you a clear path to making your life better.
00:48:06Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands and be a nightmare.
00:48:10But with function, it's just $499, and now you can get an additional $100 off, bringing it down to $399.
00:48:17Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom
00:48:25That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom
00:48:29I'm thinking about that anxiety and I guess anger as well, which is kind of a little bit like anxiety at motion.
00:48:36Anxiety is anger at rest in a way, and anger is anxiety in motion.
00:48:41It seems like anxiety arises because of foresight without control.
00:48:48And then anger is desire for control that gets denied.
00:48:57And I'm wondering what you've come to learn about how to sort of dissolve or reduce the anger and the anxiety in that way.
00:49:05Yeah, so I mean, they're pretty tightly intertwined where if you start to recognize, maybe I would intertwine anger more closely with something like regret.
00:49:15Because if you start to recognize the absurdity of regret and your ability to control the way things have gone with a greater distance in time,
00:49:27there are many cases of anger in which it might be in real time that you're experiencing an event,
00:49:33but it was an event that you couldn't have controlled.
00:49:35And so, in the same way, it's a much more difficult thing to quell in the moment,
00:49:41but you can sort of start to shave off the edges of anger, I find, by recognizing your lack of control over everything else besides yourself and perhaps even yourself.
00:49:53And that takes it to a different degree and we don't need to necessarily take it there for the same point to be cogent.
00:49:58No, I think the lack of control over yourself is the regret point from earlier on, even the one that's been lobotomized from the fucking deterministic perspective of the universe.
00:50:09That I'm angry at me, I should have done differently, you're right to say that it's closer to regret.
00:50:17It's like, I should have done differently. Well, you didn't.
00:50:22You're trying to motivate yourself to do it more in future, I understand.
00:50:26And if your brain ramps up the pain of the lesson from the last mistake that you made, you will make sure that you don't make that mistake again.
00:50:35It's basically an existential, psychological equivalent of, I put my hand on that stove.
00:50:41Close to this, I got bit by a dog when I was five, the lesson is don't go near dogs for the rest of time.
00:50:52That is what our brain is trying to teach us and the amplitude, the fucking volume of the lesson is proportional to how important we think it was and how much pain we were in at the time.
00:51:04And if you're in a lot of pain and then you realize that you are making the pain worse by trying to whip yourself into submission so that you will be reminded, you've cat of nine tails your way through this thing.
00:51:18Well, in some ways you can kind of love that part of you.
00:51:22That is a good thing. That's a really fucking cool thing to love. Thank you so much for trying to keep me safe.
00:51:28I understand that I'm fallible and fucked up and I consistently make apparently the same mistakes over and over again.
00:51:37And they really have a great like fucking consecutive lineage of often being similar sorts of things.
00:51:43And I get it. You're trying to keep me safe. Thank you. Thank you for trying to keep me safe. Thank you for trying to make me learn a lesson that my actions insist on not fucking detecting and not updating themselves from.
00:51:56That's great. It's just, it's such a fucking all encompassing emotion, anger. So trying to think rationally when you're in it is not easy.
00:52:07It's definitely not. Do you think that anger is necessary for what you just described or do you think you can have that response without necessarily anger, the anger tank, so to speak, filling all the way up?
00:52:23I guess it depends. A lot of people convert anger into other emotions. And a lot of the time, these are people for whom anger wasn't allowed as a kid. It wasn't allowed in the household.
00:52:37There wasn't a safe place to express anger. Maybe there was a fragile parent or an overly disciplinarian parent or a parent who had anger problems of their own or an absent parent who couldn't really hold that for them.
00:52:49And you need, I think it's really important for people to understand if there's something bubbling inside of you, the world is basically split into two kinds of people. There's people who get mad and people that get sad, but both of them are generated from the same place.
00:53:05The anger gets turned outward or the anger gets turned inward. And the anger that gets turned inward, that's not the job of anger. The job of anger evolutionarily is you crossed a boundary and there's no police force around.
00:53:19So I'm going to behave in a way that shows you that you can't do it again and shows anybody else who's watching that they can't fuck with me in the same way that you did.
00:53:27Because we don't have laws to enforce this, so my emotional response to you is going to show you how far you crossed over the line and it's not going to happen again.
00:53:36That's the job of anger. So when it's sad, not mad, it's usually because you were disincentivized in a, I mean, everybody's disincentivized from being angry, right?
00:53:51It's a very antisocial behavior. It's a very antisocial thing. Sadness is prosocial. People come and give you a hug. Anger is antisocial. It makes people run away, but there should be a container for that.
00:54:01And if you don't learn it, there's a very long-winded way of saying lots of people are angry, but don't feel anger. And they turn it into other things. They turn it into bitterness, agitation, resentment, depression, anxiety, frustrations at themselves and at other people and at the world or politics or whatever.
00:54:22So I don't think that you need anger. I would actually go as far as to say that maybe anger is a bit more warping because it's the fucking raw uncut version of the fuel.
00:54:36And if you can have it just bubble down a little bit, I think you can make better decisions. Is there any emotion that's worse to use? Maybe being horny.
00:54:46Maybe being horny is the only worse emotion to utilize when trying to orient yourself than anger is. I can't think of many more.
00:54:56Yeah, nothing come to mind for me either. I think those are probably the two at the top of the list.
00:55:01The two horsemen of the apocalypse.
00:55:03No, but I think that's super well put. I think that there's absolutely a practical application for anger. And to just assume that you should never be angry is you're cursing yourself for a life of being taken advantage of and never signaling to yourself and others when things are wrong and when things have been crossed in terms of your boundaries and lines.
00:55:25There is a separate category of anger I personally would categorize. There's the anger towards people and things that can be corrected and then there's anger towards existence or things that can't.
00:55:44Components of life that things have gone wrong in your life that nobody intended towards you. Nobody did that to you. No conscious being or group was like, "I want this to happen to you."
00:55:59And so there's no person or group to be angry at. There's just the nature of misfortune, at least insofar as you've experienced up until this point in your life.
00:56:10And so that sort of blanketed anger has a much different ramification than if somebody does something to me directly or a group does something to a group that I associate with that is tangibly negative.
00:56:25A line is reasonably drawn between that act and we can agree on that as people, then that anger is productive. But anger of just sort of the humming and vibration in the back of your skull and neck and spine, that's an anger that I think is totally unproductive.
00:56:47So there's a difficulty in recognizing those different kinds of angers, maybe to an extent, but you definitely don't want to be so willing to be angry that you find yourself angry about things that are totally useful to be angry about.
00:57:01And so passive that you neglect the expression and actually recognizing an anger, you feel an experience about things that warrant a frustration that if you express it, people will understand, people will change.
00:57:17And by not expressing your frustration and anger towards people or phenomena that can comprehend a reasonable back and forth between you and them, you're actually doing you and them a disservice because they don't have the information to maintain a useful, healthy relationship.
00:57:34And so they're just going to assume everything is kosher, everything's fine as is because you haven't expressed otherwise. So you just sort of propagate, you continue the problem by being passive in those sorts of situations.
00:57:48And so like I said, there's different ways of considering anger and different kinds of anger, but it's important to try to delineate those two.
00:58:18routine by literally spoon feeding you a step-by-step plan for every workout. It guides you on the exact sets, reps, and weight to use. Most importantly, how to perfect your form so every rep is optimized for maximum gains.
00:58:31It adjusts your weights each week based on your progress, and there's a 30-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it, train with it for 29 days, and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back.
00:58:41Right now, you can get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout.
00:58:57What's the desire trap? In terms of what are you referring to? Well, think about your relationship with desire and what you've learned about it. Is it a trap? Because it seems like desire fuels suffering in many ways, and even the desire to escape desire is a desire as well.
00:59:18Then evolution sort of hardwired dissatisfaction into us, and we may secretly prefer striving over satisfaction in many ways. So how the fuck do we survive this?
00:59:30Well, we survive this because that fuels survival, in my view. It's inescapable. I know that there are people that maybe sit on mountainsides and do nothing all day long, and they're able to live an ascetic life and totally quell all desire.
00:59:52But for the vast majority of people, especially those who might be watching or listening to this, that's not going to probably happen, and it probably shouldn't. You don't have to force some sort of romanticism around ascetic life.
01:00:06So what you're left with kind of comes back to what we were talking about a moment ago when it comes to understanding the constraints around your decision making and what matters to you. Because you're never going to eliminate desire, and you're never going to eliminate the continual pain or dissatisfaction that comes from the very substrate that desire functions on.
01:00:29Because desire is not something that you get, you achieve, and then you're done. Obviously, that's not how that works. It's the same with hunger. It's the same with every breath. Every breath is a desire for another breath, and that doesn't mean you're done. You're going to have to find the next breath, the next meal, the next everything.
01:00:46And so you don't escape that trap. That trap is paradoxical in the same sense as many of the other things we've discussed where it's unfortunate because it makes you—you're kind of destined to never feel an ultimate satisfaction. But by virtue of that, you end up pursuing a ton of things—people, goals, achievements, preferences, art—that you wouldn't otherwise ever care about if you were done after your first moment of achievement.
01:01:15And so the trap is also the open door. I mean, it's both ways. You're stuck in an infinite hallway of open doors, but in each door, you can decide what you care about and what meaning you might derive from what's inside that room. And then you get bored, unfortunately, and then you move on to the next room. But there seems to be, if you keep moving, an unending hallway of doors. So it doesn't have to be purely tragic.
01:01:44Okay. So does that mean that happier people are simply less aware or are they better at metabolizing awareness?
01:01:53Oh, that's a very good way of framing that question. I'm reluctant to answer that with conviction because I just don't know if I know enough happy people to say one way or the other.
01:02:10I think that it could be both. I don't know if it's binary. I'm not saying you're presenting it as a binary option, but I think that you can be happy by being maybe less reflective and less aware about absurdity and futility and all that and the sort of associated suffering with desire.
01:02:31You could be happy that way and you could be happy is maybe not the best word, but you could be a kind of happy by also knowing that everything you do is ultimately absurd and futile.
01:02:43But you're still experiencing moments that are enthralling and interesting and you're experiencing moments of love and wonder.
01:02:52And the awareness of the futility of those things for me doesn't negate them. So I see no reason why both kinds of people or all kinds of people couldn't find maybe not happiness, but a justification, a wonder, a reason to keep moving.
01:03:13I guess if everything is uncertain and constructed, why trust any of our conclusions?
01:03:24Oh, I wouldn't. You're saying why trust any conclusion? I definitely would not trust any conclusion, at least in the absolute sense. When you say trust, do you mean believing wholly in its sort of finality?
01:03:44Yeah, I suppose. How can we trust any of our insights? Our own conclusions. Everything's uncertain. Everything's constructed. Our consciousness is filtering what we see in the world. There's no such thing as real truth. How are we not just permanently sort of wallowing in our own uncertainty?
01:04:06Yeah, so I think I have a way out of that to some extent. Everything isn't uncertain because what you're experiencing now is completely real and certain.
01:04:20And so you have that basis, always, that tether to experience and selfhood and existence that maybe can't be extrapolated out onto some sort of metaphysics and insight about some grander picture. But you can know that you're certainly feeling what you're feeling and experiencing right now, and you can navigate a life and existence based on those feelings to the best of your ability.
01:04:46And that doesn't provide certainty in the way that we often like to think of it, but it does provide a barometer, a compass that we can reference and derive what we're really after from.
01:04:59What do you think makes life worth the trouble?
01:05:16I think "wonder" is the name of my YouTube channel. The reason why I'm bringing that up is because pursuit of happiness is the common phrasing, and I believe that that's the wrong way of approaching the justification around pursuits and life in general.
01:05:34And so I think what makes life worth the trouble is, and it's by a very slim margin, I must say, but the experience of wonder, the experience of a self-produced meaning, and you can experience wonder through art, through relationships, through friendships, through aesthetic experiences, just walk through nature.
01:06:03And if you have enough of those moments, and enough is relative, but if you have enough of those moments, you can take the ingredients of the trouble of existence, you can take the graphite of that sort of sludge, and you can make it into something beautiful and worthwhile.
01:06:24And it's like I said, it's by a certain margin for everybody how much that actually feels like you made it worthwhile in terms of all the trouble, but I think you're kind of in a boxing match that you're destined to lose, but you're still putting up a hell of a good fight, and there's so much spirit in that.
01:06:45Everybody loves an underdog story, and I believe each of us are the underdogs up against our lives in existence, but we put up a hell of a fight, and that makes it worth it.
01:06:58Do you think self-awareness makes love deeper or more fragile?
01:07:07Probably more fragile, if I had to pick. The reason I would say that is because it makes you maybe more self-conscious, and obviously self-conscious and self-awareness are almost synonyms, but self-conscious in the more typical sense of the word, where you're worried about how you're coming off, and how you're integrating with somebody else's preferences.
01:07:36However, on the flip side of that, to be more self-aware is to recognize, and this is one thing that I think is useful in all areas of life, is to recognize how annoying you can be, and how neurotic you can be.
01:07:58So when you recognize a more granular sense of your neuroses, or your annoyances, or all the sorts of things that make you on a day-to-day basis from inside your skull a little bit challenging to deal with, to be more aware of those qualities makes you more understanding of another person's difficulties with dealing with those qualities.
01:08:24And if you're not aware of those qualities, then you might never understand, "Why is this person reacting to me in such a way? Why are they feeling this sort of way in relation to my behavior?"
01:08:35You know that you have a certain outward behavior, but without recognizing the full picture of those qualities and how they become manifest and why they are the way they are, it can be challenging to empathize with somebody who is trying to be as close to you as possible.
01:08:54Obviously, you are as close to you as possible, humanly possible, and if they're trying to get anywhere near that, without recognizing those qualities, you do tend to lack the empathy for their perspective and experience.
01:09:11I think ultimately this may be more of a benefit, but it can be also very challenging because you're always seeking ideal circumstances, at least for me.
01:09:25And so when you're aware of all those negative qualities, I'm always seeking to integrate them fully and properly into myself and in a way that makes sense for other people that I'm close with, and that's an impossible goal.
01:09:42And so that also can make you maybe overzealous, over-angered by the lack of success in certain areas like that.
01:09:53Yeah. Robert Pantano, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you rule. I love your YouTube channel. The book's fantastic. Where should people go to check out everything you do?
01:10:01Appreciate it, Chris. Yeah, so I have a new book, Terrible Paradox of Self-Awareness. That's coming out March 10th, so depending on when you're watching this, it's available for pre-order now. After March 10th, it's obviously available for regular order.
01:10:13And then YouTube channel is Pursuit of Wonder. Try to come out with videos a couple times a month over there, and then Pursuit of Wonder everywhere else on all socials and pursuitofwonder.com.
01:10:22Fuck yeah. Dude, I appreciate you, man. Congratulations.
01:10:25Thanks so much, Chris. I really appreciate you.