The Brutal Tactics of Female Sexual Competition - Dr Dani Sulikowski

English
CChris Williamson
결혼/가정생활임신/출산정신 건강패션/의류

Transcript

00:00:00How do you describe your area of research focus?
00:00:04So my research focus is the evolutionary psychology of human behaviour.
00:00:10And in the last few years in particular, I've really narrowed that focus down a bit
00:00:14to look at female intersexual competition,
00:00:18which is just a big fancy word for how women compete with each other
00:00:23to see who gets the largest share of the population's reproductive success.
00:00:27Okay, what is it trying to achieve?
00:00:31Fundamentally, what does female intersexual competition try to do?
00:00:35So the currency of evolution is reproductive success.
00:00:39The genes that promote reproductive success increase in frequency in the population
00:00:44and so whatever mechanisms and behaviours they produce will also increase in frequency.
00:00:50So female intersexual competition is the suite of behaviours
00:00:53that have evolved to maximise an individual's relative reproductive success,
00:01:00not absolute reproductive success.
00:01:02And that's a pretty important point.
00:01:03So you don't need to have as many babies as it's humanly possible to have
00:01:09to win the evolutionary game.
00:01:11What you do need to do is reproduce at a greater rate
00:01:15than the average reproductive rate for your population.
00:01:18And if that continues to happen in your lineage, generation after generation,
00:01:22then you increase your representation in that population
00:01:26and you win the evolutionary game.
00:01:28So it's relative reproductive success that matters.
00:01:30So you can win by increasing your own reproductive success
00:01:35or attempting to inhibit the reproductive success of rivals.
00:01:39Both of those will increase your net reproductive success.
00:01:41Okay, so you can put your foot on the gas of how many surviving children you have
00:01:47or you can try to put your foot on the brake of how many surviving children
00:01:51other women have.
00:01:53Exactly.
00:01:54Okay.
00:01:55This doesn't paint women in a particularly flattering light.
00:02:02How conscious is this?
00:02:04Is it all women?
00:02:06Oh, excellent.
00:02:07You've hit on my least favourite question straight away.
00:02:10How conscious is this?
00:02:12Fuck me.
00:02:12Okay.
00:02:13Thanks, Dani.
00:02:14No, that's okay.
00:02:15No, that's fantastic.
00:02:16It's the question I get the most often
00:02:18and you'd think I would have invested some time in coming up with a better answer.
00:02:21I try to answer it a little bit differently each time
00:02:23in the hope that it's a more satisfactory answer.
00:02:26So how conscious people are, unclear.
00:02:30Unclear, it varies from person to person
00:02:33and it probably doesn't really matter very much.
00:02:37So understanding what, very briefly,
00:02:42understanding what consciousness is and for is a really difficult question
00:02:45and there's no consensus.
00:02:46How it operates with respect to sort of evolved behavioural tendencies
00:02:52is it develops kind of post hoc justification
00:02:57for what you've done and why you've done it.
00:02:59In fact, that's sort of what consciousness does with all behaviours, really.
00:03:02You ask people why they've done something they don't know, right?
00:03:05We can do an experiment where we manipulate the information that people get
00:03:09and they don't know we've manipulated that
00:03:10and then we ask them why they made their decision
00:03:12and they just make something up
00:03:13and they don't know they've made something up, right?
00:03:14So people generally don't know why they're doing what they're doing.
00:03:17So the majority of people, not just women,
00:03:21but people generally really don't know why they're doing what they're doing.
00:03:25They don't know why they find this particular person attractive.
00:03:28They don't know it's because the shape of their face signals
00:03:31that they have particular levels of testosterone or oestrogen
00:03:35that contribute to fertility and particular behaviour
00:03:37in really nice adaptive ways.
00:03:38They just look at someone and go, "Oh, he's hot. She's nice."
00:03:41But they don't have to understand why.
00:03:44And so women and men,
00:03:46because intersexual competition applies to men as well,
00:03:48it's just a completely different ball game when it comes to men.
00:03:53They don't have to understand that the consequences of their behaviour
00:03:56is inhibiting the reproductive success of other women.
00:04:00They just have to be compelled to behave that way.
00:04:03So it doesn't necessitate that women be sort of overtly aware
00:04:08of some nastiness in their behaviour.
00:04:10Having said that, though, women are definitely overtly aware
00:04:14of much nastiness in their behaviour, as most women will attest to.
00:04:18Most women have been the recipients at some point or another
00:04:21of the bullying behaviour from other nasty women.
00:04:24So women certainly have the capacity to be absolutely directly,
00:04:28overtly and knowingly nasty and awful to each other.
00:04:31I mean, that's a given.
00:04:34So maybe they're sometimes conscious of the consequences of what they're doing.
00:04:39Sometimes, you know, if you look at it through a feminist lens -
00:04:42this is something else that I've talked about a little bit -
00:04:46women are very conscious of what they're doing
00:04:48in terms of how the ideologies affect the reproductive success of other women.
00:04:52But they think that's a good thing, right?
00:04:54They think motherhood is a form of oppression
00:04:57and marriage is a form of subjugation.
00:04:59And so if you can free women from those things -
00:05:02this is obviously a certain branch of feminism, not necessarily all -
00:05:05but if you can free women from those things, well, that's a great thing.
00:05:08So they can be well aware that this is, you know,
00:05:10reproductively inhibiting ideology without necessarily thinking
00:05:14that they're being mean or nasty or whatever by doing it.
00:05:18Yeah, I think as well some women would agree
00:05:22that they have been mean and nasty
00:05:24and that other women have been mean and nasty to them.
00:05:27But that's almost kind of like - not quite right -
00:05:31but that's like the proximate explanation.
00:05:34She's a bitch. I don't like her.
00:05:37She's annoying, she's a slut, whatever.
00:05:41The leap from that to some of that behavior
00:05:47is trying to suppress the future child-having potential of that woman.
00:05:53The more ultimate explanation, I guess.
00:05:55Yes.
00:05:57That feels like a big leap
00:06:01that I think very few women would be able to make themselves,
00:06:04even when they've been the recipient of it.
00:06:06I don't know whether many women would say,
00:06:08"Well, the reason that she ostracized me at work
00:06:12or the reason that she vented and did the 'bless her heart' thing
00:06:18to a mutual friend of ours
00:06:19that was going to tell the rest of the world that I had casual sex last week."
00:06:22Like, those things are - it's the game within the game.
00:06:28It's not the game itself.
00:06:30Does that make sense?
00:06:31Yeah, it does to some extent.
00:06:32And I think that even though you're right
00:06:34that most women might not make the connection
00:06:36between what's happening and ultimate reproductive success,
00:06:39a lot of women do and very rightly make the connection
00:06:42between what's happening and physical appearance
00:06:45and physical attractiveness.
00:06:46So, as I'm sure you're well aware, as would be your listeners,
00:06:50I'm sure that physical attractiveness is a big part of female mate quality.
00:06:54And so that becomes a big part of your value on the mating market, if you like.
00:06:58And women are very well aware that the way that they treat other women
00:07:02and the way other women treat them is very strongly determined, often,
00:07:07by their appearance versus the other women's appearances.
00:07:11So that is something that women are very aware of.
00:07:15Explain what that dynamic would be.
00:07:18They're aware of other women's appearances.
00:07:20People are very - I mean, I assume this is my impression,
00:07:24but I think women are very aware of the phenomenon
00:07:27by which an attractive woman introduced into a workplace
00:07:32or a social setting or something is very likely to raise the ire
00:07:36of potentially many other women,
00:07:39simply because she's attractive and women will understand that.
00:07:42And sometimes when someone's being picked on or bullied or whatever,
00:07:46they'll say, "Look, it's just because she's jealous."
00:07:48And that's frequently correct to some extent.
00:07:51And so I think that there is a sort of understood relationship
00:07:57between female nastiness, bullying interactions,
00:08:01whatever you want to call it, relational aggression,
00:08:05and female appearance.
00:08:06And it's not just how attractive she is, but it's also how she dresses.
00:08:10- How much skin she's got. - Yeah, exactly.
00:08:13Who did the study where the participants were actually outside
00:08:19of the study waiting to go in?
00:08:20A woman comes past in one version wearing lots of clothes
00:08:23in one version being quite exposed, asking for directions.
00:08:27And the behaviour of the women is completely different
00:08:29despite the fact that it's the same woman.
00:08:31Who did that one?
00:08:33I want to say Mary-Anne Fisher, but I don't think it actually was.
00:08:36She's done almost all of the great one.
00:08:38I don't think it was, so I think it was someone else.
00:08:41- I feel like I'm wrong about that. - What it goes to show...
00:08:44What it goes to show is that women respond differently
00:08:47to the same woman who presents in a different way.
00:08:50And I'm going to guess that your explanation would be
00:08:55the smaller clothes wearing more skin on show woman
00:09:01presents more of a potential sexual rival
00:09:05and therefore mating threat to these women
00:09:07than the more demure version.
00:09:09Therefore, ostracising her helps to make her more hesitant,
00:09:14maybe lowers her self-perception, pushes her outside of the friend group,
00:09:19makes guys not be so attracted to her, et cetera, et cetera,
00:09:22in an attempt to bring that big advertising billboard
00:09:27of sexual availability down.
00:09:29Yeah, I mean, more or less all of the above.
00:09:31So it's really important to understand female
00:09:35intersexual competition signalling.
00:09:37So most of what women do that is sort of, I guess, under,
00:09:42you know, conventional wisdom thought to be done to impress men.
00:09:47So, you know, beautiful clothes, makeup, all that dolling up.
00:09:51Much of that is actually not targeted towards men at all.
00:09:55It's actually targeted towards other women.
00:09:56So it's interpreted by other women as signals of intersexual aggression
00:10:02and social aggression, dominance, those types of things.
00:10:07And if a woman is attractive, it's interpreted in a reasonably negative way.
00:10:13If a woman is less attractive
00:10:14and she's engaging in this sort of type of dolling-up behaviour,
00:10:17it's actually seen potentially a little bit more positively.
00:10:20So it'll be seen in a sort of dominant leadership competence type of way
00:10:24as opposed to a more aggressive sort of way
00:10:27to tell it's seen amongst attractive women.
00:10:30So when a woman turns up in a social scenario
00:10:35and she's signalling some level of sexual availability
00:10:39and looking quite attractive while doing it,
00:10:41that is itself actually an intersexual competition signal.
00:10:46She's basically sending a signal of sexual aggressiveness
00:10:50out to the women around her.
00:10:52And so the women around her respond to that aggressive signal
00:10:55with a form of aggression, a form of counter-aggression of their own.
00:10:58I wonder how many women that are listening
00:11:01have purposefully dressed down when they've been introduced
00:11:06to a new group of girl friends
00:11:08or have been newly placed into a different office
00:11:12with different co-workers and stuff like that.
00:11:15I have to guess if you have recognised the game,
00:11:18even if you don't fully understand the ultimate explanation
00:11:21of fertility suppression and ostracisation, blah, blah,
00:11:24you will know if I turn up with my boobs out,
00:11:29throughout my experience of life being a woman,
00:11:31I've noticed that women don't seem to like it so much
00:11:34when I turn up with my boobs out.
00:11:36So I'm going to wear something that's a bit different.
00:11:37So you've just been trained like an LLM over time
00:11:41to behave in one way as opposed to another.
00:11:44Yeah, that's right.
00:11:45And I would suspect that most women,
00:11:47even whether they realise it or not,
00:11:49would certainly moderate their dress
00:11:50in different social circumstances
00:11:53for the benefit of other women,
00:11:54not just for the benefit of men,
00:11:57but specifically for the benefit of other women.
00:11:59And it is no doubt experientially tuned,
00:12:04but I suspect too that these would be evolved tendencies.
00:12:10These are part of the evolutionary game.
00:12:12All evolved tendencies rely on having
00:12:15appropriate experiences for them to develop properly.
00:12:18And so I wouldn't want to put it down
00:12:20to a socialisation effect necessarily.
00:12:23How does female intra-sexual competition
00:12:26differ from male intra-sexual competition?
00:12:28You're sort of laying at the feet of women
00:12:30this fertility suppression thing,
00:12:31but surely the only job of men's genes,
00:12:35the currency that matters is also reproductive success.
00:12:38So is it not just the same for guys too?
00:12:40No, so there's a few differences
00:12:43between male and female intra-sexual competition,
00:12:46but I'd say that the fundamental one that matters
00:12:49is that for exactly the same reason
00:12:51that societies can send large numbers of men off to war,
00:12:55have them die and recover the population within a generation
00:13:00is the same reason why men don't tend to engage
00:13:04in manipulative reproductive suppression of rivals.
00:13:07So if a man seeks to suppress the reproductive success
00:13:12of another man or the group of another man,
00:13:15and even say, let's say he does that successfully,
00:13:17he convinces some large proportion of the population
00:13:21to effectively withdraw themselves from the gene pool.
00:13:24The remaining men, even if he has tremendous success,
00:13:27the remaining men will be able to pick up that slack,
00:13:30if you like.
00:13:31The same thing doesn't apply to women.
00:13:34In exactly the same way,
00:13:35populations don't send 40, 50, 60% of their women
00:13:40off to war to fight because if they did that,
00:13:42they would take them generations to recover
00:13:44because female reproductive success is capped.
00:13:47So male intra-sexual competition focuses much more
00:13:51on the side of the equation of maximizing
00:13:54your own reproductive success.
00:13:55It's much more just like a sprint race.
00:13:58Men are just like-
00:13:59- They only have a gas pedal, they don't have a break.
00:14:01- Yeah, they're in their lane, they're running hard,
00:14:04and they're just trying to get to the finish line
00:14:07as quickly as they can and get there faster
00:14:09or with more children than the other men.
00:14:11Women is like a running race,
00:14:13except every competitor is spending most of their time
00:14:16sticking out their arms and legs,
00:14:17trying to grab the other competitors, pull them back,
00:14:20trip them over, and the end result is that the entire field
00:14:23doesn't necessarily really go anywhere,
00:14:25which is why net reproductive success is so important.
00:14:29The entire field, as a whole, cannot move,
00:14:32and everybody can have relatively low reproductive success,
00:14:35but whoever is at the top of that relatively low number wins.
00:14:40So the games are very different.
00:14:43- It's fascinating.
00:14:44Look, I've had Candice Blake, Joyce Benenson,
00:14:47Corey Clark, Tanya Reynolds, like I've had a big suite
00:14:51of intersexual competition researchers on the show,
00:14:54and I never realized that the asymmetry
00:14:57in the ability for men to reproduce
00:15:01and for women to reproduce
00:15:03means that fertility suppression for men doesn't make sense
00:15:08because give a guy a good half hour break
00:15:13and a new glass of water and he's probably okay to go again.
00:15:17That's not the same for women.
00:15:20And that means that the both value, potential profit
00:15:25and potential cost of improving or restricting yours
00:15:31or a rival's mating success as a woman
00:15:34is so much more valuable because you've just locked in what?
00:15:38That's a two-year contract maybe of gestation breastfeeding?
00:15:43- Yeah, and way more.
00:15:45- Okay, but I mean, you can have another kid,
00:15:46like you can have two under two, right?
00:15:49- You can have two under two,
00:15:50but there are still massive opportunity costs involved
00:15:53in the fact that you've got one under two
00:15:55in terms of the two under two and your prospects of,
00:15:59if you didn't hold on to whoever the first mate was,
00:16:02your prospects of getting another mate,
00:16:05your prospects of being able
00:16:07to actually re-subsequent children needing more resources
00:16:09to do that and things like that.
00:16:11So even it's not even just restricted by the basic biology,
00:16:14which is obviously a massive restriction,
00:16:16but there's all of the flow on effects as well.
00:16:19Whereas men simply don't have those same concerns.
00:16:22Men can have, I mean, it's not quite as simple as that,
00:16:26especially in the modern world with courts enforcing
00:16:29sort of child support payments and things like that.
00:16:31But essentially men can have children
00:16:34from previous relationships and it is a much
00:16:39less serious impediment to them then embarking
00:16:42on a future relationship that might be more long-term
00:16:45that might then yield more long-term children
00:16:47in a more family-like environment.
00:16:49That's not really an option that's available to women
00:16:51unless they're prepared
00:16:52to wear the massive costs that go with it.
00:16:54- Yeah, I'm thinking about Tracy Viancourt's work.
00:16:57And there was that recent study that came out about
00:16:59men are more accepting of their political rivals
00:17:05than women are of their political allies.
00:17:08I think maybe it was Joyce Benenson
00:17:11or maybe it was Tracy that did the study
00:17:13looking at female basketball players.
00:17:16Sorry, male basketball players showed more physical affection
00:17:21to opposing team members on the court
00:17:24than female players did to their own team members.
00:17:27And you think like, ah, okay,
00:17:28it's an interesting data point.
00:17:31Do we really need to read into it all that much?
00:17:33What does this mean?
00:17:35But when you have this underlying narrative
00:17:39of the break pedal for women
00:17:42being something that is really useful for them,
00:17:46savage and mean and malignant,
00:17:48but useful from a reproductive standpoint,
00:17:51but it's not there for men.
00:17:52I think it's starting to explain to me
00:17:55a lot of the differences in male and female behavior.
00:17:58Sort of this, very much you said sort of a sprint race,
00:18:01this single thrust, make self as rich, famous,
00:18:05well-known as possible, must gain more muscle,
00:18:07must continue to go in the,
00:18:09as opposed to this entire suite of social skills
00:18:14that women have that men not only don't have,
00:18:19but can't even recognize.
00:18:21You know, when you and your girlfriend go into a workplace
00:18:26and she says something,
00:18:27she picks up on something that some girl did too,
00:18:29and you're like, "I didn't even know
00:18:31that there was a person here.
00:18:32I wasn't even looking.
00:18:33I was busy having fucking a pair of teeth."
00:18:36I think that it really begins to explain
00:18:41what drives that asymmetry.
00:18:43And it is one of the sexes has a break pedal and a gas pedal,
00:18:47and the other just has a gas pedal.
00:18:49- Yep, and I completely agree.
00:18:50And I think the intersexual competition angle, I think is,
00:18:55well, I mean, obviously it's kind of my thing.
00:18:58So I'm gonna say it as a fundamental explanation
00:19:01for almost everything, and I do that.
00:19:02So people can level criticism at me for that if they want to.
00:19:05But I do think that it's the fundamental explanation
00:19:08for why, you know, it's kind of well understood and accepted
00:19:11that women have better social skills generally than men, right?
00:19:14So that, you know- - Better lying detectors.
00:19:16- Oh yeah, better lie detectors,
00:19:18better at lying themselves, better manipulation,
00:19:20much better at following the, you know,
00:19:23the social intricacies like, you know, remembering
00:19:28who's friends with who and who said what when
00:19:30and did this person that,
00:19:31like one of my favorite little anecdotes.
00:19:34And I said this to a guy and his response was,
00:19:36"Oh my God, that happened to me too."
00:19:37So it was not just my husband,
00:19:39but my husband had a falling out once.
00:19:41It's not interesting,
00:19:42but he had a falling out once with a neighbor.
00:19:44And then, I don't know, about six months later or something,
00:19:47he bumped into him at the local supermarket
00:19:49and they had a chat and he came home and he said,
00:19:51"Oh, I saw such and such today."
00:19:53And I went, "Oh, are you two friends again?"
00:19:56And he sort of looked at me, like he'd just forgotten.
00:19:59He'd just forgotten that they hadn't spoken for six months
00:20:01because they weren't talking to each other
00:20:02and had a falling out.
00:20:04That is something that women would never do.
00:20:07That they would simply never forget
00:20:09that someone is not their friend anymore.
00:20:12It just doesn't happen.
00:20:13And so, I do think that this intersexual competition game
00:20:18that women play is a fundamental organizing principle
00:20:22of female social behavior.
00:20:23I really do.
00:20:24I think it dictates much of what women do much of the time,
00:20:28whether they realize it or not, of course.
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00:21:29That's a lovely description,
00:21:31an organizing principle of female social behavior.
00:21:34I think that's really cool.
00:21:36Before we even get into what are some of the different ways
00:21:39this behavior shows up,
00:21:41I imagine that there's many women listening
00:21:45who don't like the sound of their entire sex
00:21:49and much of their social behavior
00:21:50being painted in this kind of a light.
00:21:53Given that you're a woman, how have you found it
00:21:56best to, not even soften the blow,
00:22:02but to explain this in a manner
00:22:05that women become receptive to,
00:22:07as opposed to saying, "And you do this
00:22:09"and you're trying to get your friend
00:22:10"to break up with her husband
00:22:11"and she's eating herself out of a fertility window
00:22:14"and blah, blah, blah."
00:22:15- It's an interesting question, actually.
00:22:20Surprisingly, I get, well, I've so far,
00:22:23and I look at so far, I've been exposed, I think,
00:22:26by the nature of social media and whatever,
00:22:28I think I've been exposed to very friendly audiences,
00:22:30both male and female.
00:22:32So I think I've been spared, not entirely,
00:22:35but I've been largely spared too much of vitriolic pushback
00:22:39or even resistance.
00:22:40But actually, I get more resistance from men
00:22:44than I get from women.
00:22:45Most women look at me and just nod and just go,
00:22:50"Yep, that's exactly what it's like."
00:22:52- Do you think that's because they've been
00:22:54on the receiving end?
00:22:55- And every woman's been on the receiving end.
00:22:58Every woman, I think, has to some extent engaged in this,
00:23:01certainly with big individual differences,
00:23:04but I don't think there's any women who escape it either.
00:23:06And so women are very ready, even if they would, I imagine,
00:23:11would be almost definitely less ready to admit
00:23:13that they do it and less ready to admit particular instances
00:23:17in which they don't, although still in conversations,
00:23:19most people are pretty ready to admit to rather stupid
00:23:22or unkind or whatever things that they did,
00:23:24especially when they were younger.
00:23:25The cover of Youth always gives you some willingness
00:23:28to admit horrible things you did as an obnoxious teenager.
00:23:31But women have been the recipient of it.
00:23:34And so women just sit, many women just sit there
00:23:38and just look at me and just nod.
00:23:40And they're just like, "Yep, yep."
00:23:41I actually get most pushback from men whose impulse, I guess,
00:23:46and sort of 'cause we'll have this sort of verified
00:23:50from one man at least 'cause he came back to me later
00:23:52and explained this to me that this is exactly
00:23:54what was going through his head.
00:23:56I get pushback from men because their impulse
00:23:58is to defend women.
00:23:59Their impulse is to say, "You're a woman,
00:24:02"but I'm pretty sure this is sexist.
00:24:04"I can't quite square those two things at the moment,
00:24:06"but I don't like what you're saying."
00:24:08And I actually get much more pushback from men
00:24:11wanting to just somehow not accept that this actually
00:24:16is a fundamental explanation of how women behave.
00:24:19I think men are going to be blind to much of this behavior
00:24:23because they don't pick up on the frequency
00:24:27at which it's happening.
00:24:29They are almost never going to be on the receiving end of it,
00:24:33at least in quite the same way.
00:24:35And also you've got, like, I guess,
00:24:38maybe men would be on the receiving end of something,
00:24:40but they're not going to interpret it
00:24:41in that sort of a manner. - Yes, that's true.
00:24:44- Because they're blind to it.
00:24:45And you've just got the general women are wonderful effect
00:24:49showing up here that men and women prefer women
00:24:52for all things.
00:24:54Okay, so talking about some of the ways
00:24:57that this competition shows up in behavior,
00:25:00what about women's dating advice?
00:25:02How does it show up there?
00:25:04- So, yeah, so it definitely shows up
00:25:06in women's dating advice.
00:25:07I've done a few sort of, not boring,
00:25:10but some sort of formal academic studies on this
00:25:13showing that in a number of different scenarios,
00:25:15so whether it's relationship formation
00:25:17or deciding when to start having children,
00:25:19deciding whether to get married,
00:25:20when to start having children, once you've had children,
00:25:23whether to sort of stay home at a stay-at-home mom
00:25:26or go back to work, I have done a bunch of studies
00:25:30looking at relationship advice in these different scenarios.
00:25:33And the basic take home finding is that,
00:25:36yes, almost without exception.
00:25:39Yes, women give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:25:43to hypothetical women, whether these are sort of framed
00:25:45as friends or colleagues or whatever in the study.
00:25:49They give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:25:51to other women than what they say they would do themselves
00:25:54in those scenarios.
00:25:55So we use what women say they do themselves,
00:25:57what they say they would do themselves
00:25:59as like the benchmark for what they presume
00:26:01would be the most adaptive.
00:26:03And then compared against that,
00:26:04they give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:26:06to other women.
00:26:07So they're more likely to tell other women
00:26:09about the importance of not staying home as a mom
00:26:13but going back to work than they are to say
00:26:15that they would see it as important for themselves
00:26:18to go back to work.
00:26:18And they're more likely to tell other women
00:26:20that they should delay having children
00:26:22and invest more in their career
00:26:23until they build up more career success
00:26:25than what they would say they would invest in career success
00:26:27before having children.
00:26:29So we see that formally, but I think it's perhaps more,
00:26:32more compelling or at least more interesting
00:26:35in the way we're beginning to see it informally
00:26:38sort of across mass media and social media.
00:26:42So it's been getting a lot of attention lately
00:26:44that I'm sure you would have seen them.
00:26:45The numerous articles just coming out with various titles,
00:26:49like, you know, I had an affair
00:26:51and it was the best thing I ever did for my relationship.
00:26:55And, you know, those that did the rounds a few days ago,
00:27:00Target, I think, have released their Valentine's Day range
00:27:03and there's a jumper for women that just says dump him in,
00:27:06yeah, of course, in giant text.
00:27:08And, you know, we're just being bombarded with the,
00:27:11and another good one too was I think that,
00:27:14I think it might've been called the article
00:27:15something to the effect of is having a boyfriend
00:27:18right wing coded and things like that.
00:27:22So we're seeing this sort of devaluing of,
00:27:26certainly devaluing of monogamous relationships
00:27:29and devaluing of committed relationships in public directory.
00:27:33And it also translates into the sort of, you know,
00:27:37individual one-on-one advice that women give to each other
00:27:40and it translates to the lab situation
00:27:42when we sort of try to go to formally measure it as well.
00:27:45- Okay, many of those articles will justify the points
00:27:50that they're putting forward as emancipating women
00:27:53from relationships that they shouldn't be in,
00:27:56encouraging their independence.
00:27:57Like why not go back to the workplace?
00:27:5950% of marriages end in divorce
00:28:01and you're gonna be stuck with no money
00:28:03and the kids look after and all the rest of it.
00:28:05You need to have your own life.
00:28:06It's important for you to do that.
00:28:08You can, you should get out of relationships
00:28:13that you shouldn't be in.
00:28:15Maybe you've got some questions about whatever it might be.
00:28:18I guess there is a pretty socially acceptable positive,
00:28:23some almost like socially philanthropic,
00:28:27I'm bestowing on you some of this interesting
00:28:30and useful advice that helps you push back
00:28:33against these like archaic and heavily structured,
00:28:37restrictive ideas and norms that are holding you in place.
00:28:40What you're saying, I think,
00:28:42is that would be all well and true
00:28:46if the women who said that
00:28:50also endorsed their beliefs in the behavior.
00:28:53Is that, so is that the sort of fun?
00:28:55Right.
00:28:57- Almost.
00:28:57So I think, so yes, you are correct that in some senses,
00:29:02if there was no evidence at all
00:29:04that there was any discrepancy
00:29:05in what women thought was best for themselves,
00:29:07what was best for other women,
00:29:09then we would just say, well, this is the female judgment
00:29:12of the trade-offs of the costs and benefits
00:29:14of staying in a relationship versus exerting.
00:29:17Yeah, fair enough, fine.
00:29:18And to some extent, that's true,
00:29:20except that of course, if we're talking about a game
00:29:25of sort of manipulative,
00:29:26inter-sexual competition, which we are,
00:29:28then there will be winners of that game,
00:29:31which are the women we're talking about,
00:29:32the women who espouse these anti-natal,
00:29:35anti-relationship ideologies, values,
00:29:39whatever you want to call them,
00:29:41but don't embody them themselves,
00:29:43but there will also be the losers
00:29:45of this inter-sexual competition.
00:29:46And these are the women who effectively buy
00:29:49into these ideologies all in,
00:29:52and both then espouse them, but also embody them.
00:29:55So we would actually expect to see both
00:29:58because if nobody is actually falling for this stuff,
00:30:01that's right, no one's actually falling for it.
00:30:03- It wouldn't work.
00:30:03It wouldn't work.
00:30:04- Exactly, then there's no payoff interest.
00:30:05- Ah, that's so good.
00:30:06- So there are winners and there are losers.
00:30:07- Danny, you're great.
00:30:08I fucking love when the penny drop,
00:30:10you have just seen a 3000 ton penny fall into my head.
00:30:14Okay, makes complete sense, right?
00:30:18That if every woman that was putting forward
00:30:22some anti-family creation, anti-reproductive stories,
00:30:27ideologies, and norms,
00:30:30if all of them weren't adhering to them,
00:30:33that's just another level playing field.
00:30:34There's no competitive advantage between that.
00:30:37So there have to be, we could call them leaders and followers.
00:30:42- Leaders and followers, winners and losers.
00:30:45In terms of thinking of it as a competition,
00:30:49that there are effectively,
00:30:50there are people who are winning this competition
00:30:51and there are people who are losing this competition.
00:30:54And I guess the most extreme example,
00:30:57I think of women who, in our world,
00:31:02of women who are losing this competition in a massive way.
00:31:06And it is a pretty extreme example, I'll grant you that,
00:31:10but more common than you might think,
00:31:11is women who are going out
00:31:13and in their very young and naive early twenties,
00:31:18going out and getting themselves made sterile,
00:31:20getting their tubes tied or severed or whatever.
00:31:23- That's how you win.
00:31:25- Yeah, yeah, oh my God, yes.
00:31:28No, that is a thing.
00:31:29Like it's not a massive thing, but oh no,
00:31:31that is, I promise you,
00:31:33that is absolutely, definitely a thing.
00:31:36But you know, with this idea that they're now free,
00:31:40that they can now have all the sex in the world they want
00:31:42and they don't have to worry about contraception failing.
00:31:45They'll never be tied down.
00:31:46They will, you know, they'll never have children.
00:31:49And what's interesting about this phenomenon is it,
00:31:52again, it's not just about them doing this to themselves.
00:31:56Clearly doing this has tremendous signaling value
00:31:59because once they go and do it, it then gets signaled.
00:32:03It then gets talked about and it gets celebrated
00:32:06and it gets shared upon social media
00:32:08and all the other women come in and tell them how,
00:32:10you know, what a wonderful liberating decision they've made,
00:32:14especially women in their late thirties
00:32:15with three or four kids,
00:32:16tell them what a wonderful liberating decision
00:32:18it is that they've made.
00:32:20No, this is definitely a thing.
00:32:21So I had a look at, I was looking up the stats on this
00:32:24for a research project I was sort of doing,
00:32:27a talk I was doing actually,
00:32:28based on a research project a couple of years ago.
00:32:31And the tubal ligation procedure is actually,
00:32:34we'll sort of invent it if you will,
00:32:36because the fallopian tubes is where,
00:32:39is the tissue that actually is responsible
00:32:41for ovarian cancer.
00:32:43And ovarian cancer, which you probably know,
00:32:44is a pretty bad one.
00:32:45It's really hard to detect until it's late stage.
00:32:48And so it's, you know, it's not good.
00:32:50It's not good to get ovarian cancer.
00:32:52And so a lot of women, once they are post reproductive
00:32:55and they've finished having kids,
00:32:56will just go and get their tubes taken out
00:32:58because that basically eliminates the risk of ovarian cancer.
00:33:01And so that's why the procedure exists.
00:33:04But of course, once that procedure exists,
00:33:07it now becomes a tool that can be used.
00:33:10And it is absolutely a thing
00:33:13that women are going and getting this.
00:33:14And so one statistic that is quite telling
00:33:17that I was able to locate is that depending on the data set,
00:33:21somewhere between 15 and 30%,
00:33:24which is a lot of the women who have this procedure,
00:33:28make inquiries about having it reversed.
00:33:31So I'm guessing that none of the women
00:33:33who are post reproductive age,
00:33:35who took these tubes out because of ovarian cancer fears,
00:33:38are amongst those looking to have it now reversed.
00:33:42So we're talking about somewhere between 15 and 30% of women
00:33:46who have had this procedure.
00:33:47Now, not all of those will have had it
00:33:49for some misguided form of permanent contraception.
00:33:53But you know, some people may have had this procedure
00:33:56for ovarian cancer reasons when they were very young,
00:33:59thinking they wouldn't want children
00:34:00and now really regret it.
00:34:02But there is certainly a substantial proportion of women
00:34:05who are having this procedure,
00:34:07thinking that they're going to be very happy
00:34:09being permanently sterile their whole life,
00:34:10only discover at some point
00:34:12that they're not happy with that decision anymore.
00:34:14- Wow.
00:34:15Wow, yeah.
00:34:17I mean, it really does put a different angle
00:34:21on articles like that Vogue one
00:34:23that went absolutely interstellar,
00:34:25is having a boyfriend cringe now?
00:34:27- Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of, yeah.
00:34:30- Oh, that was the one about the right wing?
00:34:31- I think so, yeah.
00:34:32- No, it was cringe.
00:34:34It was cringe, which I think is maybe equally toxic
00:34:38or maybe even more toxic than being right wing.
00:34:40'Cause at least if you're right wing,
00:34:41the other right wing chicks might like you.
00:34:42But if you're cringe, no other chicks like you.
00:34:45- Well, have you seen the stats on political orientation?
00:34:47There are no right wing chicks.
00:34:49This is the problem, right?
00:34:51- We're going to get into that.
00:34:52So I guess,
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00:35:53Give me, just using that is having a boyfriend cringe
00:35:58in our Vogue article, which almost everybody saw.
00:36:01Is it your suggestion that many of the proponents of that,
00:36:07perhaps even the author of that,
00:36:12is going to endorse but not follow that lifestyle?
00:36:17And because of that, they are able to gain
00:36:20from the relative reproductive success
00:36:22compared with the ones that don't get into relationships
00:36:25that take this dating advice?
00:36:27- I think that understanding the balance
00:36:30of who wins and who loses, I think is really difficult
00:36:34because this is the thing.
00:36:35You know you've got that like salesman,
00:36:38I always call it a Ponzi scheme
00:36:40and it's not a Ponzi scheme.
00:36:41It's got a different name, but you know that sales technique,
00:36:43that business model where you kind of sell
00:36:46what's effectively some form of snake oil, right?
00:36:49You sell some sort of snake oil to somebody,
00:36:51but the people you sell it to,
00:36:52you convince them sufficiently well--
00:36:55- Oh, it's an MLM, multi-level acting.
00:36:57- Yeah, that's right, there we go.
00:36:59And so you convince them and they then become the sellers.
00:37:02So they're now selling snake oil,
00:37:03but they believe in the snake oil, right?
00:37:05So the same thing happens
00:37:07with these reproductively inhibiting memes, ideas,
00:37:10whatever you want to call them.
00:37:11Many of the people who are then promoting them
00:37:15have also embodied them and taken them on board
00:37:18and genuinely believed them.
00:37:19But from an evolutionary perspective,
00:37:22it's still, their contribution to the game has not finished.
00:37:27So even though they may be effectively,
00:37:31depending on how well they actually embody
00:37:32this particular ideology,
00:37:34potentially for their entire reproductive capacity
00:37:37and end up genuinely on zero,
00:37:39that doesn't mean that they're done for, right?
00:37:41That they can still improve the reproductive success
00:37:44of their genes,
00:37:45assuming that they have relatives of any kind.
00:37:48They can still improve the reproductive success
00:37:51of their genes by continuing to promote
00:37:54this reproductive suppressive ideology to other women.
00:37:59So they would be selected for to promote it
00:38:03and sell it and pass it on,
00:38:05irrespective really of whether they're a winner,
00:38:09someone who's not going to embody it
00:38:10or a loser, someone who is.
00:38:13- I suppose. - So whether someone,
00:38:14yeah, supports this stuff, doesn't tell you,
00:38:15says they support this stuff,
00:38:17doesn't actually tell you which strategy they're adopting,
00:38:20the winning strategy or that they've been manipulated
00:38:23and they're on the losing team.
00:38:24- Yeah, I suppose it makes for a much better smoke screen
00:38:29or it makes your argument seem like it's coming
00:38:36from a much more philanthropic, positive some place
00:38:40if you believe the ideology that you're espousing, right?
00:38:45Like for instance, I don't know whether you know Alex Cooper,
00:38:48she does this podcast called "Call Her Daddy."
00:38:50I've said some stuff about that I actually disagree
00:38:52with myself on in the past.
00:38:53I think it must've been a very difficult world
00:38:55for her to be in where she started off doing this podcast
00:38:58talking a lot about casual sex,
00:39:00sleep with him and not catch feels, et cetera,
00:39:02like the classic 20s, like young girl casual sex thing.
00:39:06And then she was having this kind of secret relationship
00:39:08behind the scenes and then one day kind of revealed
00:39:10that she was engaged and had this very big library
00:39:15of episodes, but was like, he proposed to me in a rose garden
00:39:19and it was beautiful and this is the ring
00:39:20and I'm now doing the family pivot thing.
00:39:23I don't think that for a long time
00:39:29she would have been thinking anything other
00:39:32than I believe in this.
00:39:34I believe in this, like she's not, I don't think to see it.
00:39:38And this is where I changed sort of what I'd said
00:39:40retrospectively, I don't think that she was going,
00:39:44I'm going to encourage women to behave in this way.
00:39:47It's just a pretty effective meme.
00:39:49It sounds very positive some, it's much more progressive
00:39:53and modern and contemporary and sort of socially acceptable
00:39:58than the opposite, which kind of sounds restrictive
00:40:00and bourgeois, and then you get to the stage where,
00:40:05oh, I now need to embody this
00:40:09and my life is pulling me in a different direction
00:40:11and that's the point at which it becomes really interesting
00:40:14because you say, I said all of this stuff in the past,
00:40:17do I now still agree with me previously?
00:40:21Do I wish that I'd said something different?
00:40:23Was I too militant with the way
00:40:25that I was saying that stuff?
00:40:26So all of that together, I thought was pretty interesting.
00:40:29But one other angle to this, I suppose,
00:40:32that isn't necessarily dating advice
00:40:36for heterosexual relationships,
00:40:37but I wonder if the broad elite female support for LGBT
00:40:42or sort of non-typical relationship preferences
00:40:45is also a type of fertility suppression.
00:40:47'Cause I guess having a boyfriend or a husband
00:40:50might be cringe, but I bet that having a girlfriend
00:40:53or a wife wouldn't be cringe.
00:40:55- Correct, I agree 100%.
00:40:57So I have spoken a little bit before how I think that the,
00:41:01not just the sort of LGBTQ movement,
00:41:05but broadly, which I think it is,
00:41:08but also the transgenderism as well is also
00:41:11the reason why I think that the,
00:41:14I mean, the data on this, I think reasonably well known
00:41:18that it is almost by and large exclusively women
00:41:23who are really strongly in favor of gender ideology
00:41:26and are the pushers of gender ideology,
00:41:28which is why it has taken hold in industries and workplaces
00:41:32and whatever that are, that are dominated by women.
00:41:35And I think that too is because it has very clear
00:41:40reproductive suppressive implications.
00:41:43It was really interesting what you were saying
00:41:46about that podcast, if I can go back to that
00:41:49for just a second, because that also raises
00:41:50a really interesting dichotomy and that,
00:41:54or an interesting contrast.
00:41:56And that is because that for the vast majority of women,
00:42:01it would not be adaptive to reproduce
00:42:05when you become biologically able to reproduce.
00:42:08So there is this sort of tension amongst,
00:42:11you know, in the sort of human mating system
00:42:13that is created by the fact that women become
00:42:16biologically able to get pregnant
00:42:18long before it's actually adaptive necessarily
00:42:21for them to do so under most circumstances.
00:42:24There are circumstances where it would be adaptive,
00:42:27but under most circumstances, it's not adaptive to do that.
00:42:30And so women dudes definitely have a stage of life
00:42:34where it actually makes sense for them to engage
00:42:37in self reproductive suppression
00:42:40and to be discouraging themselves and obviously,
00:42:43and that used to manifest. - That's interesting.
00:42:45- Yeah, that used to manifest in encouraging, you know,
00:42:47young girls not to have sex effectively,
00:42:49but now it sort of manifests in quite different ways.
00:42:53And so we've actually got a situation where there is sort of,
00:42:57or already built into the system,
00:42:59there is this period of sexual maturity
00:43:02in which it's actually adaptive for women to,
00:43:06you know, even though they are capable of reproducing,
00:43:09it would actually be, you know,
00:43:10in terms of their long-term lifetime reproductive success,
00:43:13it would under most circumstances for most women
00:43:15be maladapted to get pregnant during that time period.
00:43:18And so it's not, therefore, to me,
00:43:20looking at things through an intersexual competition lens,
00:43:22it's completely unsurprising that that is the time period
00:43:26that, you know, feminism and women's lib has targeted
00:43:30as encouraging women to really, really heavily engage
00:43:32in risky sexual behavior because that is the one time period
00:43:36in which you don't actually want to get pregnant.
00:43:38And so we then see these same women's lib feminist type
00:43:43talking heads when it comes to talking about sex
00:43:46within marriage and all of a sudden that's unpaid labor
00:43:49and emotional labor and that's oppressive.
00:43:52And, you know, husbands have no right to demand sex
00:43:55off their wives.
00:43:56And yet when you're in your early twenties and unmarried,
00:43:59sleeping with, you know, every single man
00:44:02that gets within three feet of you, apparently,
00:44:03that's some form of liberation.
00:44:06It's an interesting dichotomy.
00:44:09The other really interesting thing that it raises
00:44:11that's also worth thinking about
00:44:13is that there is actually always a tension.
00:44:16When you want to signal something manipulatively,
00:44:19the best way to signal it is to do it
00:44:22or to look like you're doing it
00:44:24or to appear like you're doing it.
00:44:25And of course, the most effective way to appear
00:44:27like you're doing it is to actually do it.
00:44:29So any kind of manipulative signal, in some sense,
00:44:34is potentially costly to the signaler
00:44:36because they need to do this to themselves to some extent
00:44:40in order to convince their rivals to do it to themselves
00:44:44to a greater extent.
00:44:46And so there is this dangerous, very dangerous
00:44:50sort of cost benefit payoff matrix
00:44:53that women have to navigate when they're engaging
00:44:55in this type of manipulative signaling.
00:44:57And some manipulative signalers might just really,
00:45:01really get that cost benefit calculation very wrong
00:45:05and simply just engage in the manipulative behavior
00:45:08that the costly signal to a much greater extent
00:45:11than they can tolerate and effectively score
00:45:14a massive own goal.
00:45:16- Give me an example of how that might manifest.
00:45:18- So going back to the example of women
00:45:20who are getting themselves sterilized in their early 20s
00:45:23and then shouting all over it on social media.
00:45:26And there was one instance in particular,
00:45:28I remember of a girl who got her tubes set into resin
00:45:32so she could wear them around her neck as a necklace
00:45:34so that she could tell everybody she met
00:45:36that they were her fellow kids.
00:45:38- Jesus Christ.
00:45:40- Yeah.
00:45:40Poor girl.
00:45:42Anyway, but see, I imagine that is, you know,
00:45:47that is potentially, that is clearly a case of a woman
00:45:50who has now lost the intersectional competition gap.
00:45:52I mean, that is just a massive own goal right there.
00:45:54It's just, it's finished, it's over.
00:45:57But I imagine that, you know, the tendency to behave
00:46:02in these types of ways and to do these grand social gestures
00:46:06of, oh yes, I'm never going to have children.
00:46:09I'm, you know, children are terrible.
00:46:11That's not the life path that you should choose.
00:46:13It's not the life path I've chosen.
00:46:15The selective pressure on women to be, you know,
00:46:18highly intra-sexually competitive women to be compelled
00:46:21to engage in these kinds of grand gestures
00:46:23would potentially lead them to do things
00:46:26like get themselves perfectly sterilized.
00:46:30Exactly, they massively overshoot
00:46:31because the mechanisms have not evolved to deal
00:46:33with every individual instance of signaling behavior,
00:46:37you know, opportunity that might present itself.
00:46:40And so what could be engaged in, you know,
00:46:42motivated by mechanisms that evolved
00:46:44to effectively promote manipulative signaling
00:46:47might actually do the self a lot of harm.
00:46:50'Cause those mechanisms are not sensitive
00:46:52to their own outcomes.
00:46:53- Okay, so.
00:46:55- So we've got manipulated losers
00:46:58and we've got people who basically, you know,
00:47:01beat themselves in the game.
00:47:03- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - There's two types of losers.
00:47:04- So you said it's a massive own goal.
00:47:07Again, I think it's worth restating
00:47:10that what you mean when you say own goal
00:47:12is in terms of the currency that evolution cares about.
00:47:15- Correct.
00:47:16- Because if you take contemporary culture,
00:47:17people might say, what does it matter
00:47:19that she's got her tubes tied?
00:47:21She can have as much sex as she wants.
00:47:22She doesn't need to worry about childcare.
00:47:24She doesn't need to worry about her nanny.
00:47:25She can work and she can go out
00:47:26and she's never gonna get pregnant.
00:47:28Like that sounds like liberation.
00:47:30- It sounds like liberation.
00:47:32I mean, I would argue that it's not.
00:47:34And I'm not the only person who argues that it's not.
00:47:37I mean, I think that, I mean,
00:47:37I think Louise Perry has done a pretty good job
00:47:40of mounting the argument that women who engage
00:47:43in that type of behavior are typically
00:47:44not actually very happy.
00:47:46In fact, that they're quite miserable.
00:47:47And fast forwarding to much later points in life,
00:47:51'cause this has now been going on for long
00:47:52enough that we have, you know,
00:47:53we do have cohorts of women who are at the end of their,
00:47:58beyond the end of their reproductive years
00:48:00and who are now realizing that they've seriously missed
00:48:04a really important boat and are miserable
00:48:07and depressed and unhappy having, you know,
00:48:11sort of realized where these types of life choices lead you.
00:48:15And so, yeah, I'm speaking in terms of the, you know,
00:48:18the evolutionary consequences of these decisions.
00:48:21And that is a, reproductively speaking,
00:48:23obviously an own goal.
00:48:26But it's not that that is just some esoteric, you know,
00:48:31evolutionary calculation.
00:48:33These decisions have real life impacts on women as well,
00:48:35which we are now, which I mean, really,
00:48:37I think should have predicted
00:48:38they weren't gonna be a net positive.
00:48:40But now we are seeing that they are absolutely
00:48:44not a net positive.
00:48:46So these are absolutely having, you know,
00:48:48real life individual proximate impacts
00:48:50on the women who take these decisions as well,
00:48:52that generally don't seem to be good ones.
00:48:55- It is a fascinating duality to hear that casual sex
00:48:59is a form of sexual female liberation,
00:49:02but sex with your husband is unpaid labor
00:49:05or it's oppressive or subjective or whatever.
00:49:07It is really interesting, the duality of these things.
00:49:12I have a question, regardless of whether or not
00:49:16it would be evolutionarily useful from a resource perspective
00:49:21to try and do, do reproductive suppression strategies
00:49:24work against men?
00:49:26- That's an excellent question.
00:49:29So I would, so I think there's a two part answer
00:49:33and that the first part is generally no,
00:49:36because of the reasons we've already described.
00:49:39So in the limited circumstance where you were as a man,
00:49:43you are looking to actually get the partner of a rival.
00:49:48So you're looking to like mate poach.
00:49:50Yeah, then, you know, harming another man's, you know,
00:49:54potential reproductive output, you know,
00:49:55and doing things to him might help you.
00:49:58If it helps destroy that really sabotaging his relationship
00:50:01the way women sabotage each other's relationship,
00:50:03that might help you.
00:50:04But again, the reason you're doing that
00:50:06is not really cause you care about his reproductive successes
00:50:09because you've decided you want his partner
00:50:10for whatever reason.
00:50:13So, you know, for the reasons we talked about before
00:50:15the fact that other men can pick up the slack,
00:50:17the fact that there's very little men can do
00:50:19within themselves to actually move the dial
00:50:22on the population's background reproductive rate
00:50:25just means that the payoff matrix isn't there.
00:50:28However, there's a second part, I think, to that answer.
00:50:32And that is if we fast forward a little bit
00:50:35or maybe in a better way, zoom out a little bit.
00:50:38And instead of thinking at the moment,
00:50:40we've sort of thought and spoken mostly about this being
00:50:44kind of, you know, an individual on individual interaction
00:50:47or, you know, many on one or one on many.
00:50:52But once you reach the stage of reproductive suppression
00:50:57that I argue that we're at, so, you know,
00:50:59I know that you're aware that the birth rate is, you know,
00:51:02well below replacement level and is declining.
00:51:06And my argument is that in itself is because of manipulative
00:51:11reproductive suppression that that is in fact
00:51:13the ultimate explanation for what we're seeing.
00:51:16And I think that once you actually reach that point,
00:51:20then you perhaps do get to see a benefit to men
00:51:25of engaging in their own type of manipulative
00:51:29reproductive suppression.
00:51:30- Your weapon is now sufficiently powerful
00:51:33that you're able to do it at a broad enough scale
00:51:36that this might actually work.
00:51:37But how would that, we wouldn't have an evolved mechanism.
00:51:41We wouldn't have anything in our programming as men
00:51:44to be able to understand that surely we can't adapt
00:51:46to a novel situation that quickly.
00:51:48- That's a really good point.
00:51:51And that's why I don't, that's why my argument
00:51:53is that this is not a novel situation.
00:51:55This is actually, so what we're experiencing now
00:51:59with birth rate decline and the rise of feminist ideals
00:52:04and the feminization of the institutions.
00:52:07All of this is part of a repeated pattern that we see
00:52:10in civilization after civilization after civilization.
00:52:13This is not a unique idiosyncratic issue
00:52:17that has appeared in the West as a function
00:52:19of the particular social and technological forces
00:52:22that we sort of find ourselves living with.
00:52:25This is actually, this is the human mating system.
00:52:28It goes through these cycles.
00:52:31And so actually, yes, we have been here before
00:52:33and there has been selection pressure operating.
00:52:36And this is actually the system, this is not a bug.
00:52:39This is a system operating as intended.
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00:53:25When you say we have been here before,
00:53:27as far as I'm aware,
00:53:28we haven't really seen birth rates decline
00:53:31really ever below replacement.
00:53:33There's been incidents where I'm not wrong.
00:53:37- Yeah, no, that's not true.
00:53:38So certainly declining birth rates
00:53:41are part of the sort of suite of things
00:53:44that have been pointed to as things that we see
00:53:48in civilizations that are declining and degrading
00:53:51and reaching their end point.
00:53:53Same as we see that the price of sex going down
00:53:57and art becoming vulgar.
00:53:59We see marriage rates declining.
00:54:01We see birth rates declining.
00:54:02So Rome towards its, well, not towards its very end,
00:54:07a little bit earlier than its very end,
00:54:08but it had many policies in place
00:54:11that sort of what we're sort of calling a baby bonus
00:54:14to try to motivate women to get married and to have children
00:54:17because the fertility rate was declining so severely.
00:54:21And what happened in Rome,
00:54:23and I would hazard a guess it's a similar thing
00:54:25that's happening now,
00:54:26is the birth rate declined sharply
00:54:31primarily because the women were choosing to be liberated
00:54:36and to be free and to not be married and to not be mothers
00:54:40and to have careers and everything else.
00:54:42And that left a relatively small number of women
00:54:46having a relatively small number of children,
00:54:48which meant that those women
00:54:49were able to have sort of their pick of men.
00:54:51And so reproductive success amongst men,
00:54:54especially to some extent amongst women as well,
00:54:56but especially amongst men
00:54:58became restricted to the very elite of men.
00:55:01And the rest of men just basically got kicked out.
00:55:04- All right, okay.
00:55:05So women, that cultural adjustment
00:55:10which was anti-family, anti-coupling, anti-mating
00:55:15affected women more than it affected men.
00:55:18Many men wanted to mate, but fewer women did.
00:55:21And that basically skewed the sex ratio
00:55:25so that women had more power,
00:55:28but also so that the high,
00:55:31as happens to the tall girl problem, the high status men
00:55:34also relative get more power than they would have done.
00:55:37Okay, so reproductive suppression may work against men.
00:55:42We're not quite sure how ingrained
00:55:45that mechanism would be evolutionarily.
00:55:47So comparatively it's easier to influence women
00:55:51in this regard.
00:55:52Why is it the case then
00:55:54that women haven't developed a defense mechanism to this?
00:55:57Like, why would you leave the key hole in there
00:56:01if that vulnerability, we already know, what is it?
00:56:05F to M is like five times as many transitions as M to F.
00:56:10The ROGD, Rapid Unset Gender Dysphoria thing.
00:56:14- Eating disorder, social contagions as well.
00:56:17- Yeah, the social contagion thing is there,
00:56:19especially during puberty, right?
00:56:20I'm looking around, I'm scanning my environment,
00:56:22I'm vigilant for what's cool, what's hot, what's not.
00:56:24I need to make sure that I'm on trend.
00:56:26Why would human evolution not patch that bug
00:56:31so that females wouldn't be susceptible to this?
00:56:35Because surely that would be the ultimate game.
00:56:38Like I'm just a reproduction machine and you can't limit,
00:56:42you can't suppress my fertility no matter what you tell me.
00:56:45- Because it's not a bug, it's a feature.
00:56:49And this is the problem.
00:56:51So it's a bug for the women who lose, but the women who lose,
00:56:56it's not their genes that get passed on.
00:56:58For the women who win, who are engaging in this behavior,
00:57:01it's a feature because it promotes
00:57:03their reproductive success and so the genes perpetuate.
00:57:07- Would that not suggest, yeah, yeah, yeah, I told you right.
00:57:11Would that not suggest then that we are the progeny
00:57:13of the women who are the least susceptible
00:57:17to these sorts of things, given that they are the genes
00:57:19of the ones who didn't necessarily embody
00:57:22even if they maybe did endorse?
00:57:23- Yes, potentially.
00:57:27But the other part of the sort of system
00:57:30that makes this make sense is that human civilizations
00:57:35have got like this cycle.
00:57:37And so we only are able to see this type
00:57:41of female manipulative reproductive suppression
00:57:44that we see now under certain circumstances.
00:57:47And those circumstances include affluence and safety.
00:57:51And so when you've got societies that are not very affluent
00:57:54and not very safe, then the payoff matrix isn't there.
00:57:58Women are investing all of the resources that they have
00:58:01and all of the resources that they get to accrue
00:58:05into their own reproduction and into their own offspring.
00:58:08It's once you get to a point where we have the affluence
00:58:13of organized society that women have an opportunity
00:58:16to be able to accrue more resources
00:58:19than what they just need to pour in.
00:58:20You get like a law of diminishing returns.
00:58:24The resources that the elite women are effectively able
00:58:27to accrue, it's no longer adaptive
00:58:31to just keep pouring all of those
00:58:33into their own individual reproductive success.
00:58:35It now becomes more and more adaptive
00:58:38to start pouring this time, effort and energy
00:58:40into manipulative reproductive suppression of rivals.
00:58:44And the more affluent and the safer the society gets,
00:58:47the more the scales tip in that way.
00:58:50So because this is not an adaptive strategy
00:58:52under all circumstances,
00:58:54it doesn't reach fixation if you like.
00:58:57So it's, and so what you sort of end up with is,
00:59:01well, according to my theory,
00:59:03I should probably be careful to preface that
00:59:05because not everything, much of what I'm saying
00:59:07is not the sort of thing that you would be finding
00:59:10other people reaching any kind of consensus on, right?
00:59:13Like that's, I think most people understand
00:59:15that's pretty far out stuff.
00:59:16But according to the way I see it,
00:59:19the winners of this game enter a,
00:59:22effectively enter a sort of genetic bottleneck.
00:59:25So as fertility rates drop and the fertility rates
00:59:31are well below replacement,
00:59:33then the size of the mating pool is actually much,
00:59:35the effective population size is much smaller
00:59:38than the actual population size.
00:59:40So it may not necessarily look like a genetic bottleneck
00:59:43because we're not actually necessarily seeing
00:59:45a massive population crash.
00:59:47But when large numbers of the population,
00:59:50large numbers of women in the population are not reproducing
00:59:53and that does appear to be what's happening.
00:59:54So I think there might be modest falls in,
00:59:58amongst women who have children.
01:00:00I think there might be sort of modest falls
01:00:03in the number of children they're having,
01:00:04but I think that's largely being maintained.
01:00:07What's causing or what's sort of accounting
01:00:09for the large fall in birth rates is the massive increase
01:00:13in the number of women having no children.
01:00:15So what we're seeing is large numbers of women
01:00:17actually withdrawing themselves from the gene.
01:00:19- If you have one, the likelihood is you have 2.5,
01:00:22but the number, the proportion of women
01:00:24who don't have one at all,
01:00:25that is the big cohort that's contributing
01:00:28to birth rate decline.
01:00:29- Yeah, exactly.
01:00:30- Is it possible to have these sorts of conversations
01:00:34publicly without getting heat?
01:00:40- Yes, it is almost impossible
01:00:42to have these types of conversations.
01:00:44And look, I think the sole explanation I would say
01:00:48for me not yet having sort of really encountered
01:00:51any serious blowback is just lack of exposure.
01:00:53And you're right, that may well change now.
01:00:55- Good luck after this.
01:00:56- So be it, that's fine, that's fine.
01:00:58My life's been boring up until now, why not have some fun?
01:01:01- Wonderful.
01:01:02- But no, you can't.
01:01:05And I think one of the reasons,
01:01:07I think one of the main reasons why you,
01:01:08well, according to my theory,
01:01:11one of the main reasons why we can't have
01:01:12this particular conversation about birth rate declines,
01:01:16motherhood and reproduction,
01:01:19maybe other aspects of intersexual competition
01:01:22speak to more women directly and they can empathize with it
01:01:28and they can understand it.
01:01:29But once you start talking about birth rate decline
01:01:33and you start talking about women having children
01:01:37in particular, you're really just cutting straight through
01:01:41to the heart of the issue.
01:01:42Everything else is just peripheral.
01:01:45Everything else is just in service of birth rate decline.
01:01:49All the other aspects of female intersexual competition,
01:01:52they're just ultimately in service of birth rate decline.
01:01:54So giving women poor relationship advice,
01:01:57that's so that they will have either poor relationships
01:02:00or no relationships,
01:02:01which greatly reduces the likelihood of them reproducing
01:02:04or at least reproducing successfully.
01:02:07Because I'm sure you're aware that the stats are pretty clear
01:02:12on the costs of fatherlessness to children, right?
01:02:16That the outcomes are just systematically,
01:02:18substantially worse across the board for fatherless children.
01:02:21And so if you can encourage women to engage in behaviors
01:02:26that result in them being single mothers,
01:02:29that's not quite as good as resulting in them
01:02:31being not mothers at all, but it's pretty good.
01:02:33It's a pretty good way to damage
01:02:35their ultimate reproductive success.
01:02:37So we can talk about all the other issues
01:02:41and sometimes we can have a little bit of fun with it.
01:02:44People had a lot of fun with that haircut study that I did
01:02:47where women will advise other women to cut off more hair
01:02:51and they focus this kind of most strongly towards women
01:02:55that are perceived to be as attractive as they are.
01:02:57So like they're direct rivals on the mating market.
01:03:00And we can have a little bit of fun
01:03:01with these types of conversations.
01:03:03And I can have a little bit of fun with feminists sometimes
01:03:05about certain things.
01:03:06But once you get down to talking about birth rates
01:03:08in children and motherhood,
01:03:11now you're getting to the heart of the issue
01:03:12and that's not fun anymore.
01:03:14Now you're a serious threat to the ultimate reason
01:03:18for the strategy and it gets women very angry.
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01:04:33What is your perspective on women being encouraged
01:04:38to enter the workplace, by other women,
01:04:40how that plays into your perspective here?
01:04:43- So yeah, so I think that is,
01:04:45I mean, I think that, you know, that talk by her
01:04:48and then the essay she wrote,
01:04:49she's done a couple of podcasts.
01:04:51I mean, I think that was fantastic.
01:04:53So she's, I mean, she's like almost 100% correct
01:04:57in most everything that she says.
01:04:58All of the observations that she makes about workplaces,
01:05:01what she says happens when women reach
01:05:03sort of a critical mass, you know?
01:05:06And it's not, I mean, I think at some point she was sort of,
01:05:08she did, I think, emphasize, if I remember correctly,
01:05:11that, you know, the sort of the points in time
01:05:13where these workplaces became sort of more than 50% female.
01:05:18And then she sort of pointed that as the tipping point.
01:05:21And we have a small point of difference there.
01:05:23I think that you don't need women to be at 50% in workplaces
01:05:28to see these, to get the ball rolling,
01:05:30to see these changes begin to emerge.
01:05:34Women don't need to be at those,
01:05:35the mechanisms by which women use to make these changes
01:05:39in the workplace are not democratic.
01:05:41And so they don't need a democratic majority to do it.
01:05:44I think the critical mass of women
01:05:45is actually substantially lower in their ability
01:05:48to manipulate both their male and female colleagues
01:05:50allows these types of things to happen
01:05:52long before you actually get to the 50%.
01:05:54So that's a small point of difference.
01:05:56But everything that she was saying, other than that,
01:05:59I think about what's happening in these workplaces
01:06:03and the fact that it's because of the proportion
01:06:06of women in them, I think is absolutely 100% bang on.
01:06:11And I think, and it's fantastic that she got,
01:06:13you know, that they got so much traction
01:06:15that she was able to effectively start a conversation
01:06:17on something, which I think people had been either unwilling
01:06:21or unable to really get a conversation started on.
01:06:24And I think maybe the fact that she was a woman coming out
01:06:27saying that.
01:06:28- Oh God, if a man had written that article,
01:06:31it would have been absolute death.
01:06:32I mean, look, you're a woman who is professionally accomplished.
01:06:36Is it not a good thing for women to be able
01:06:40to get into the workplace,
01:06:41to be able to have their own careers,
01:06:43be financially independent, have a life, all of that?
01:06:46- Depends what you mean by good.
01:06:49Depends what you mean by good.
01:06:50So, you know, if we sort of think about,
01:06:53so if we sort of think about human societies
01:06:55from first principles for a moment,
01:06:57in order for societies to grow and stay healthy,
01:07:00they need to reproduce, well, in order for it to exist,
01:07:02they need to reproduce it at least replacement.
01:07:05Ideally, they need to grow, right?
01:07:07Growth is great for prosperity,
01:07:10which means they need to reproduce at above replacement.
01:07:12Now, depending on the costs of reproduction,
01:07:15you know, in a society like ours,
01:07:18we know individual people are able to accrue the resources
01:07:21needed for successful reproduction quite easily.
01:07:24And in societies gone past, you know,
01:07:28reproductive success was relatively much more expensive.
01:07:31And all that excess wealth is one of the reasons
01:07:34why we have this massive manipulative reproductive suppression.
01:07:37Right, so if you're in a society where you need to maintain,
01:07:41you know, an investment in reproduction
01:07:44that will ensure that the reproductive rate
01:07:46stays at above replacement levels
01:07:47in order to continue prosperity,
01:07:50and the women in your population,
01:07:52who are the ones who basically are the limiters
01:07:55on your reproductive output,
01:07:57decide to invest a certain amount of time and effort
01:07:59and energy in non-reproductive activities,
01:08:02such that it becomes impossible for your society
01:08:05to reproduce at the levels required to maintain prosperity,
01:08:08is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:08:10It's the end of the society.
01:08:14The society simply cannot sustain itself.
01:08:16But no individual-- Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:08:18Yeah, no individual is gonna think,
01:08:20"I'm going to not do the thing that seems exciting
01:08:24and independence-enabling to me in order for me to serve."
01:08:29It feels almost like some kind of social,
01:08:32reproductive conscription that you're asking me to do
01:08:35where I don't get to do this thing
01:08:38because what the world's civilization needs me
01:08:42to be a birthing machine.
01:08:44So feminism has certainly done a really stellar job
01:08:48of making sure that that's the way people think.
01:08:50And, you know, props to it.
01:08:54But forgetting about the imposition on individual people
01:09:00for a moment, 'cause we could say exactly the same thing.
01:09:03In fact, I think we could say much more
01:09:05about what's needed about the male commitment
01:09:07to keep the civilization profiting, right?
01:09:10I mean, you think that it might be bad news for women
01:09:15that they need to have children and families
01:09:18in order for civilization to prosper.
01:09:19Well, what do men need to do
01:09:21in order for civilization to prosper?
01:09:22They need to work themselves to the bone,
01:09:24frequently die, get sent off to war.
01:09:27But if civilization is gonna prosper,
01:09:29men have got a pretty raw deal.
01:09:30So it's not as though we're talking about
01:09:35it's all fun and games for men
01:09:37and women have to carry some sort of burden.
01:09:39So if we're able to put that bit aside for a moment,
01:09:43even just answering the question of is it good or is it bad
01:09:48if a society moves in a direction
01:09:51that effectively dooms that society
01:09:53after a couple of generations.
01:09:54Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:09:57That's not an easy question to answer.
01:09:59If your argument is that, well,
01:10:02it's better for the individuals who are in that society
01:10:05at the moment because they'll have a more fun life.
01:10:08It's worse for the continuation of the society.
01:10:13But if we're gonna prioritize the individual,
01:10:15then maybe that's a good thing.
01:10:18- It's a very individualistic society at the moment, right?
01:10:21I mean, that's an awful lot of the well-meaning
01:10:26and bad-meaning pushback that I get online
01:10:29is saying something along the lines
01:10:31of you're trying to remove agency,
01:10:34taking women out of the boardroom
01:10:38and putting them back into the kitchen, et cetera.
01:10:41It's very much, the language is almost exclusively framed
01:10:44around independence.
01:10:45- Yeah, of course it is.
01:10:47And that's a very, it's a very effective way of framing it.
01:10:51It's probably a little bit of a different conversation,
01:10:54but the notion of individual freedom and decision-making
01:10:59around these things is also a little bit,
01:11:03is also just a little bit of a fallacy
01:11:07and a little bit, a little bit folly.
01:11:09It's kind of the, it's the libertarian fantasy, right?
01:11:13That if you just let everybody do what they want,
01:11:15then everybody will do what they want
01:11:16and everybody will be happy.
01:11:18When in fact that the vast majority of people only know
01:11:21what to do based on what everybody else does anyway.
01:11:24So if you don't actually have,
01:11:26which you've been sort of seeing now,
01:11:28when you abandon the kinds of sort of societal institutions
01:11:33that placed guardrails on what people should do
01:11:37and had to do, you just end up with people
01:11:40being really vulnerable to manipulation by others,
01:11:43because actually the majority of people
01:11:45don't sort of make their own decisions
01:11:46about what they would want to do anyway.
01:11:48They go with the crowd and they follow the norm.
01:11:52But to get back to your question about,
01:11:54is it a good thing or is it a bad thing
01:11:59to have women generally in the workplace?
01:12:01And it depends on what you mean by good or bad.
01:12:04If you mean good or bad for the society,
01:12:07well, then there's definitely, I mean,
01:12:09it's definitely bad for the society
01:12:10if the inevitable result of it is that it's terminal.
01:12:15I think we can argue that that's definitely bad
01:12:16at the level of the society.
01:12:18So then we have to move down to the level,
01:12:19so then we move down, we don't have to,
01:12:21but let's say now we move down to the level
01:12:22of the individual and say, well, is it good
01:12:24or is it bad for the individual?
01:12:27And so, well, have a look at the state of women
01:12:32at the moment, massive mental health crises,
01:12:35not generally not happy, ending up childless, partnerless.
01:12:41So we're not, you know, and we sort of spoke about this
01:12:45earlier in this discussion as well,
01:12:47but you know, the end results of these strategies for women,
01:12:50you know, I think sensible people, I think,
01:12:53would have predicted that they may not have been
01:12:55very positive, but we're now seeing, you know,
01:12:57that the happiest women are the women who are married
01:13:00and have children and the least happy women
01:13:01are the women who are not married and don't have children.
01:13:04So once again, it depends on what you mean by good.
01:13:08- What's the most, just on that,
01:13:11what's the most robust data that you've seen
01:13:12around the happiness, the comparative happiness levels
01:13:15between coupled women with kids
01:13:19and single women without kids?
01:13:20- I couldn't answer off the top of my head.
01:13:24I would have to go and look it up.
01:13:26My understanding of it is that it is pretty robust
01:13:28and it's been out there for a while.
01:13:30Like it's not just like one recent study or anything.
01:13:33It's kind of multiple studies out for long periods of time.
01:13:37It's pretty well understood that in terms of life satisfaction,
01:13:41self-reported wellbeing, self-reported mental health problems,
01:13:45like it's not just one DV either.
01:13:46It's multiple DV's are all pointing to married women
01:13:50with children being happier than single women
01:13:52who are not mothers.
01:13:54- The interesting thing that I,
01:13:57and maybe it was just because of the cohort of people
01:14:00that were commenting on this little storm in a teacup.
01:14:04What I was surprised by was,
01:14:09in the same ways you have pro-life and pro-choice,
01:14:12you should still have pro-motherhood
01:14:14and kind of anti-motherhood or pro-natal and anti-natal.
01:14:17And I was just surprised at how few people stand up
01:14:22and say something to the extent of mothers are important
01:14:26and having kids is a good thing.
01:14:28That there's kind of a soft misogyny
01:14:33to saying that the highest contribution
01:14:36that a woman can make is behaving or working like her father
01:14:40and having sex like her brother.
01:14:41Like it is a kind of soft misogyny.
01:14:44And I don't think that that's necessarily seen
01:14:47as the call coming from inside of the house all the time.
01:14:50Okay, so what are some of the more under-recognized methods
01:14:55of intersexual competition that women engage in?
01:14:59What are some of the elements
01:15:00that people typically don't think about?
01:15:02- So I think perhaps the least,
01:15:04I think probably one of the least well recognized
01:15:06because it's sort of framed as a man-hating thing.
01:15:10I would say is the whole kind of toxic masculinity
01:15:15little cottage industry that's appeared.
01:15:19So that's frequently, and not without good reason,
01:15:23is frequently framed as like an anti-male movement.
01:15:28It's the man-hating stream of feminism
01:15:31that wants to brand not just men as toxic,
01:15:34but boys as toxic.
01:15:36And I don't know what your experiences are
01:15:39and what you've seen,
01:15:40but certainly in Australia and I believe the UK,
01:15:44there's lots of talk
01:15:45and I think it's sort of actually happening now.
01:15:47Then introducing effectively like preemptive education
01:15:51into schools for young boys
01:15:53so they can teach them not to be toxic.
01:15:55And these are exactly what you would imagine.
01:15:59And there was, it made a little bit of a splash.
01:16:03Just the other week, there was a study that came out
01:16:07saying, talking about how terrible it is
01:16:10that our young boys, young boys have just got
01:16:13all of these toxic attitudes.
01:16:17It was an Australian study.
01:16:18Young boys got all these toxic attitudes.
01:16:20And of course the attitudes were things like,
01:16:24some women lie about sexual assault allegations.
01:16:28Like that's not a toxic attitude.
01:16:30That's just happens to be the truth.
01:16:34So we're sort of seeing this real branding of male toxicity.
01:16:39And I'm not denying that
01:16:41that's having terrible effects on men.
01:16:43So I'm about to suggest that the men are actually
01:16:46the collateral damage of that whole little enterprise.
01:16:51And just because it's collateral
01:16:52doesn't mean it's not serious.
01:16:53Doesn't mean I'm minimizing the impact it's having on men.
01:16:56- So explain to me how branding men and masculinity is toxic
01:17:02is female intrasexual competition.
01:17:05- Because it destroys female make choice preferences.
01:17:08It's what it's targeting.
01:17:10What the toxic brand is being attached to
01:17:14is every aspect of men that women should actually,
01:17:18that women, I won't say every single aspect of men
01:17:22because it obviously gets targeted at actually bad behavior.
01:17:26But most of the regular, all of the regular masculine
01:17:29behaviors that this toxic label gets thrown at
01:17:31are exactly the type of masculine behaviors
01:17:34that women should actually be looking for
01:17:36in a high value partner.
01:17:38And so it is spewing women's make choice preferences.
01:17:42- Can you explain how that manifests
01:17:44or how that comes into land?
01:17:46- Men who are socially dominant and socially aggressive
01:17:51make for excellent providers and for excellent protectors.
01:17:54But any kind of social dominance or aggression shown by men
01:18:00is being completely demonized and labeled toxic
01:18:05to the point where I was, I won't say who,
01:18:07but I was having a discussion the other day
01:18:10with a guy who was sort of explained
01:18:12that one of the things that really upsets him the most
01:18:15about what he sees amongst kind of his peers.
01:18:18And he was, he was American.
01:18:21What he sees amongst his peers is the lack of men
01:18:25policing each other's behavior anymore
01:18:28because from where he sits,
01:18:30his sort of impression of what's going on
01:18:33is that any kind of male aggression and male dominance
01:18:36is so, has been deemed as so inappropriate
01:18:41and such terrible behavior by women
01:18:43or just by society at large that men don't even feel
01:18:48it's appropriate to be aggressive and dominant
01:18:51with other men who will be hating badly.
01:18:52So he was sort of using the example of how,
01:18:54you know, there are men who would,
01:18:56he was sort of saying that when he was a bit younger,
01:18:59back in his day, men who didn't treat women well
01:19:03or men who showed any kind of inappropriate interest
01:19:06in children would be taken out a back shed
01:19:09and be beaten to within an inch of their life
01:19:10and then they wouldn't do it anymore
01:19:12or at least would think really hard about doing it again.
01:19:17And he said that sort of stuff simply doesn't happen now
01:19:19because people are as concerned or even more concerned
01:19:23about demonizing the behavior of taking him
01:19:25around the back of the shed and beating him
01:19:27to the inch of his life than they are about demonizing
01:19:30the behavior that needed to be policed in the first place.
01:19:34And so what we're seeing is, you know, society, feminism,
01:19:38whatever you wanna call it,
01:19:39having reshaped the positive aspects of male dominance
01:19:44and male strength and, you know,
01:19:46even what they've decided to label benevolent sexism
01:19:50was just because they've called it benevolent,
01:19:52they don't see it as good,
01:19:54which is basically all of the etiquette
01:19:56around gender role interactions that happen to favor women.
01:20:00They still decided that sexism that is inherently bad
01:20:04for women, but even the benevolent sexism,
01:20:06all of that stuff has been demonized
01:20:09and being sort of, you know, labeled sort of, you know,
01:20:13no longer socially acceptable.
01:20:15And so men can no longer behave in the kinds of ways
01:20:18that they used to behave in order to be able
01:20:21to demonstrate their quality as a prospective mate to women.
01:20:25And so men are responding by actually engaging
01:20:28in sort of what, you know, what you might call beta behavior,
01:20:30just to demonstrate that they're not a strong masculine man
01:20:34and women are being taught to reject men, you know,
01:20:38they're taught to recognize signs of masculinity
01:20:41and mate quality as red flags to be avoided.
01:20:45And I think that's--
01:20:46- If women are influencing men to be more docile
01:20:49and women are being taught to get into relationships
01:20:53with men who are more docile and less aggressive,
01:20:56how is this not just a changing of the mating landscape
01:20:59and the preferences moving over time?
01:21:01How does this suppress anything?
01:21:03It seems to be a set of instructions being given out
01:21:06and set of preferences being adjusted.
01:21:08- Because I don't think that we're,
01:21:11'cause we're not necessarily seeing the,
01:21:13it's not as though the women who would have paired up
01:21:16with the higher quality men who were able to, you know,
01:21:19able to signal all of those signals of strength and dominance
01:21:24'cause they're costly signals, right?
01:21:25They're real signals.
01:21:27The signals of effectively harmlessness
01:21:30don't differentiate between mate quality
01:21:33because you don't actually have to have anything
01:21:35or do anything or be anything.
01:21:38In order to be physically dominant and socially dominant
01:21:41and be able to be aggressive, you have to be big,
01:21:44you have to be strong, you have to have good leadership,
01:21:46you have to be competent.
01:21:47You don't need anything to not be competent,
01:21:50to not be strong, to not have good leadership
01:21:52and to not have social dominance.
01:21:54And so it's not that it's sort of one set
01:21:57of reliable costly signals now just having
01:22:00to be signaled a different way.
01:22:01It's obliterating all of the male ways
01:22:04and sort of de-socializing all of the male ways
01:22:07of advertising their own mate quality.
01:22:08And it's leaving men with ways of advertising
01:22:11their own mate quality that are not reliable indicators
01:22:14of mate quality, which makes it very difficult
01:22:16for women to actually choose quality mates.
01:22:18And any reliable indicators of mate quality
01:22:21that do manage to bleed through
01:22:24are being systematically de-preferenced by women
01:22:27rather than being preferenced.
01:22:29- Okay, so it's, let me see if I've got this right.
01:22:34You're suggesting that women are saying these sorts of traits,
01:22:39typically masculine, dominant, prestige,
01:22:42go-getter traits are things that men shouldn't engage in
01:22:46and that women shouldn't like.
01:22:48But the problem is that women aren't as capable
01:22:51at getting themselves to not like those things
01:22:54or more specifically to like the reverse of those things.
01:22:57- That's right, and so women might make these explicit
01:23:00sort of make choice decisions where they might be encouraged
01:23:04by their friends or whatever to sort of go out with this guy
01:23:07even though they're not especially attracted to him
01:23:09or to not go out with that guy even though they might
01:23:12be attracted to him.
01:23:14And therefore they end up in relationships
01:23:16where the relationships are either not compatible,
01:23:20they don't work very well, they don't last very long
01:23:23and they don't end up becoming long-term stable relationships
01:23:26in which you can raise families.
01:23:29Because the other thing that sort of happens if women make,
01:23:32I think this happens to a reasonable extent to men as well,
01:23:35but more so with women.
01:23:37Women are by far the sex that terminates relationships
01:23:42more commonly.
01:23:44If women pair up with someone who they then later decide
01:23:47is not sort of of their mate quality,
01:23:49the relationship doesn't work and they're not satisfied
01:23:52and they do attempt to trade up,
01:23:55at least in those early stages before it's complicated
01:23:58by having children and things like that.
01:24:00And so if you can convince women to perpetually date men
01:24:05that her brain is gonna tell her no, this is not the person
01:24:08that you should be reproducing with,
01:24:09then she's gonna find it very difficult to end up
01:24:12actually having a nice, profitable,
01:24:16stable long-term relationship that will work.
01:24:20- I think what would be interesting would be to look at
01:24:23the women who are proposing, whatever you wanna call them,
01:24:26cinnamon roll husband, golden retriever husband approach.
01:24:30- Look at their husbands?
01:24:33- Look at the husbands, yeah, exactly.
01:24:35Like, who is it that you're marrying?
01:24:37Who is it that the women are ultimately getting with?
01:24:39And part of this you could see as,
01:24:41well, it's people don't know what they want
01:24:44and they're expecting, I thought I was right in the past.
01:24:46I thought that the casual sex thing,
01:24:48the sleep with them and not catch feels thing,
01:24:49I thought that that was right then, but it's not right now.
01:24:52I think when you do see that, it does show
01:24:54some women may reach like realization escape velocity
01:25:00to get out of that mindset and into the one
01:25:03that they end up in, but other women may just cycle through
01:25:06a series of medium-term relationships with guys
01:25:10who are not a type that they want to keep going
01:25:14because they've seen this meme and they've committed to it
01:25:16and they think that that's the way.
01:25:18So yeah, I can see how, it's difficult, right?
01:25:20Because I mean, one of the biggest insights that I learned
01:25:25when thinking about Me Too was that blanket advice
01:25:28doesn't land on people evenly.
01:25:29So when you say to guys, don't be pushy,
01:25:33the guys who really could have done with a little bit
01:25:36more gumption and less approach anxiety
01:25:39will take that to heart while the guys
01:25:42that were blowing through boundaries all along
01:25:45don't think that it's meant for them in any case.
01:25:47- That's right, exactly.
01:25:48If you're gonna blow through boundaries,
01:25:50then putting up an extra boundary
01:25:51is not gonna change your behavior.
01:25:53If you're the type of person
01:25:54who doesn't blow through boundaries,
01:25:55well, as you say, putting up a boundary
01:25:57just pushes you even further back.
01:25:59- Yeah, going back to the benevolent sexism thing.
01:26:03Did you see, there was a video,
01:26:05I think it might've been a CCTV video of a girl in Vietnam.
01:26:09She was traveling and she got her bag
01:26:13tried to be taken off her by a guy with a knife.
01:26:15It looked like there were two travelers, a man and a woman,
01:26:17young, maybe 20, something like that.
01:26:20This video was maybe a month ago, month and a half ago.
01:26:23- And he hides?
01:26:24- Yes, he hides behind the pillar.
01:26:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:26:28So I thought that was really fascinating,
01:26:30looking at the response from that in particular,
01:26:34because so many of the responses were,
01:26:37this guy's not worth your time of day, men are trash,
01:26:41girl, just leave him.
01:26:42This is what's either the current generation of men.
01:26:45And trying to square that circle with dominance in men,
01:26:54benevolent sexism, sort of a patriarchal,
01:26:59classically masculine protectionist belief
01:27:02about women being delicate and special
01:27:06and needing men to use their increased robustness
01:27:09and resilience to be able to wall them off from the world.
01:27:12In one headline, it says that that's oppressive.
01:27:17And in another headline, it says that it's a marker
01:27:22of modern men not being up to standards.
01:27:26Well, it feels like talking out of both sides of your mouth.
01:27:29- It is.
01:27:30And this is why men can't win, right?
01:27:31This is why I think many men are almost sort of self,
01:27:36just decided to just self-remove
01:27:40from the mating market entirely,
01:27:42because they've seen the writing on the wall
01:27:45and they understand it.
01:27:46In some cases, perhaps misunderstand
01:27:49and then perhaps overestimating the risk.
01:27:50But I don't know.
01:27:52I think the risks are real.
01:27:54And it's hard to know what men should put on those.
01:27:58But it's really difficult
01:28:00because there's very little that men can do
01:28:02that they're not going to be criticized for, right?
01:28:07If you go on an approach, a woman,
01:28:09in some cases, you're sort of automatically
01:28:14being demanding and sexist and presumptuous.
01:28:17Like, I'm not sure if you remember,
01:28:18I remember because they went up around my university,
01:28:21that little fad where they started putting up pictures
01:28:24of various women's faces with statements underneath them,
01:28:27supposedly being things that men needed to hear from women.
01:28:31And one of them was is,
01:28:32"I don't owe you polite conversation."
01:28:34So the very idea that a man expecting
01:28:38that if he goes and talks to a woman,
01:28:39she might at least be polite,
01:28:40even that was a sexist presumption, right?
01:28:43There is very little that men can actually do
01:28:45that is not going to lead to them being potentially criticized
01:28:49and sometimes quite seriously by one or other branch
01:28:53of the talking heads,
01:28:56the progressive collective progressive talking heads
01:28:59from various feminist angles.
01:29:01And so it has become incredibly difficult for men.
01:29:03And then they do have genuine fears about,
01:29:07I think, I don't want to sort of necessarily
01:29:09sort of speak on behalf of men
01:29:10'cause I suspect I don't really know.
01:29:12- Feel free to.
01:29:13- Yeah, I suspect I don't know-
01:29:15- Speaking for the male community.
01:29:17- Speaking for the male community.
01:29:18- Sure, let me just go right off.
01:29:21No, I think that there is a very real fear
01:29:23of false accusations of sexual harassment or sexual assault.
01:29:27And I think that that is probably in a really confusing way
01:29:30for a lot of young men.
01:29:31It's probably blended with sort of couple
01:29:35with genuine fears of maybe actually accidentally
01:29:38committing a sexual offense or sexual assault.
01:29:40- Let me give you-
01:29:41- And it's really difficult to tell those two things apart,
01:29:43I think, especially for a lot of young, inexperienced men.
01:29:46And so they're scared of the false accusation,
01:29:49but they're also scared of the accidental commission
01:29:52of an offense, which is a crazy,
01:29:54a crazy position for young men to be in.
01:29:57- Well, on that, is it a crazy position for men to be in?
01:30:01There are certainly times where guys can be fumbling around
01:30:06and coercive, emotionally manipulative
01:30:11in a way that doesn't cross anything close
01:30:14to a legal boundary or even something that's ethical,
01:30:18but there's a bit of gamesmanship.
01:30:20She said no, so he took his arm out from underneath
01:30:23and stopped cuddling her and turned over
01:30:25on the other side of the bed and said,
01:30:26"Well, if we're not gonna do it, I'm gonna go to sleep."
01:30:28Like, is that?
01:30:29Like, what's that?
01:30:30Because that's an effective strategy of kind of the retreating,
01:30:35the removal of emotional comfort and physical touch
01:30:42because you didn't wanna do that thing,
01:30:44but is that, you know, we just create this entire spectrum.
01:30:48I think, as a perfect example,
01:30:50this was probably five years ago or six years ago now,
01:30:52I was out in London with a friend who was 20, 21,
01:30:56and there was a group of girls up by the bar,
01:30:59and I said, "We should go and talk to them.
01:31:00"I'm bored of you.
01:31:01"We should go and talk to the girls by the bar."
01:31:03And he looked at me like had suggested
01:31:05that we go and kill them, put them in a bag,
01:31:06and bury them in a pond.
01:31:08He was like, "You're kidding."
01:31:10I'm like, "No, they look nice.
01:31:15"There's three of them.
01:31:16"There's two of us.
01:31:17"I'm sure we can take them.
01:31:17"Like, we should go and talk to them."
01:31:21And he was like, "I have been told, under no circumstances,
01:31:25"to ever approach a woman in public."
01:31:27And that was, it blew my mind 'cause I'm 37,
01:31:33and when I was at university, we didn't even have iPhones.
01:31:37So that was a very different sort of-
01:31:39- Go and talk to people.
01:31:40- Mating environment.
01:31:41It's the only way that you could do it.
01:31:43Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:31:44So look, I get it on the challenges of guys
01:31:49sort of balancing this new world
01:31:55that they're entering into
01:31:56and the fact that they decide to check out
01:31:58as opposed to potentially do something.
01:32:00I think it's a great point to say
01:32:01that guys not wanting to accidentally do something
01:32:05that they would later regret,
01:32:07the hypersensitivity to the,
01:32:10and less forgiveness to the sort of innate,
01:32:16bumbly, white, chaotic world of young people mating.
01:32:21If you're 20 and you're trying to work out,
01:32:25like you've both had a drink,
01:32:26we've met before, like it's all,
01:32:31the devil really is in the details with these things.
01:32:34- Of course it is.
01:32:35As you try and navigate through all of this,
01:32:37if you basically make the fear setting higher,
01:32:42guys, as my friend, I've been told under no circumstances
01:32:48ever go up to a woman in public.
01:32:51Like that's a real thing.
01:32:53So yeah, it does make it difficult.
01:32:56It makes it a difficult environment for men to navigate.
01:32:59Then unfortunately, I don't think that women's preferences
01:33:05have updated themselves to be the ones
01:33:09that want to come up and talk to guys.
01:33:11- No, of course not.
01:33:12Of course not.
01:33:13- 86% of women say that they want a man
01:33:15to make the first move.
01:33:17- Yeah, yeah.
01:33:17And this is one of the reasons why I'm really convinced
01:33:22that this attack on male masculinity dominance,
01:33:27whatever you want to call it,
01:33:28is this attack on being a man,
01:33:30it's been so effective in disrupting
01:33:34that human courtship behavior.
01:33:37It's been really, really effective.
01:33:39Women, for the most part, are not going to initiate
01:33:42these relationships or these interactions, I should say.
01:33:46And so if you can stop men from initiating them,
01:33:49then that goes a long way towards stopping them from,
01:33:52a long way towards stopping them from happening.
01:33:54- Does that not mean, just to interject that,
01:33:56does that not mean that you, as the proponent of this idea,
01:34:00would be on the receiving end of it too?
01:34:02That doesn't seem like a particularly good thing.
01:34:04Like you're also curtailing the men
01:34:06that would come up and approach you.
01:34:08- Yeah, so this is a, so no, that's a really good question.
01:34:11And it's good 'cause it gives me a chance
01:34:13to sort of explain an important principle
01:34:16that kind of wraps around all of this.
01:34:19So what's happening with all of these things,
01:34:22that the devaluation of motherhood,
01:34:24the devaluation of marriage, the demonization of men
01:34:28that would actually make excellent husbands and fathers,
01:34:31the valorization of careers for women
01:34:36and all the rest of it.
01:34:38One thing that, the end result of all of these
01:34:42sort of individual things that are happening
01:34:45is that they're feeding into creating an environment
01:34:47that is really hostile to reproductive success.
01:34:50So we just have an environment in which the rules
01:34:53that we've sort of, the social etiquettes and the rules
01:34:56that we've sort of developed and built over time
01:34:58and over generations have all of a sudden
01:35:00just been thrown out.
01:35:01So now that the guardrails have gone
01:35:03and those, you know, those rules of etiquette,
01:35:04they were really important because people understood
01:35:07what you were and weren't allowed to do.
01:35:09And people understood that you could do this
01:35:11and you couldn't do that.
01:35:12And we sort of had, you know, a way that the two people
01:35:15who didn't really know each other could navigate
01:35:17a potentially romantic interaction with some certainty
01:35:21and some guidance and that's been chucked out the window.
01:35:23So what an environment now, social environment
01:35:26that is incredibly hostile to reproduction.
01:35:28And yes, that impacts everybody negatively,
01:35:32but all of these things will always impact
01:35:35those who generally have lower reproductive potential more.
01:35:40So if you are from a reproductive perspective and elite,
01:35:44if you are, let's just say as a woman,
01:35:46if you are highly attractive, you can do a crazy thing
01:35:50like decide to get a little pixie crew car,
01:35:53which for most women would massively decrease
01:35:55their attractiveness.
01:35:56You can probably do that and start setting that
01:35:59as a fashion trend.
01:36:00And yeah, it's gonna decrease your attractiveness
01:36:01a little bit, but you're still gonna be pretty hot.
01:36:04It's gonna be much worse for all the less attractive women
01:36:06who are now copying this trendy pixie car.
01:36:09And that same principle applies across the board
01:36:11to all of these things.
01:36:12So yeah, it hurts everybody, but the people who can,
01:36:17the people who have the most reproductive potential
01:36:20because they have the highest mate quality
01:36:23and they're the most fertile and they already have,
01:36:26you know, they're already in a position in society
01:36:28which gives them social access to the best men.
01:36:30You know, those women are hurt the least.
01:36:33And so they are the ones who are pushing and setting
01:36:37all of these trends.
01:36:38So if you imagine that, like, if you sort of think
01:36:40we've got this kind of linear scale
01:36:41and the odds of reproductive success are, you know,
01:36:44those that have the highest odds, the highest likelihood
01:36:47of the most reproductive success are at the top.
01:36:49And you can line everyone up right down to those people
01:36:51that have really low prospect of reproductive success.
01:36:54The more hostile you make the environment,
01:36:57the higher you lift the bar along that linear scale
01:37:01to a point where people are not having
01:37:03any reproductive success,
01:37:04which is exactly what we're seeing, right?
01:37:06More and more people are just not able to navigate their life
01:37:10to lead to reproductive success
01:37:12in this really anti-natal environment
01:37:14that they find themselves in.
01:37:16Whether it's because they devalued finding a mate
01:37:18when they were at their peak mate quality
01:37:20and it should have been the easiest.
01:37:21Whether it's because they delayed having children
01:37:23when they were at their peak fertility
01:37:25and that would have been the easiest.
01:37:26Whether it's because they made bad mate choice decisions,
01:37:28bad life choices, ended up investing a lot in their career,
01:37:32thinking that they would somehow magically find a partner
01:37:35and be able to have a family between the ages of, you know,
01:37:3838 and 39 and then that didn't happen.
01:37:40You know, we have a social environment
01:37:43that is very hostile to reproduction
01:37:45and therefore the only people in there
01:37:47who are able to reproduce are the ones
01:37:49that have the most reproductive capacity to begin with
01:37:52by virtue of a whole bunch of factors that contribute to that.
01:37:55So yes, it hurts everybody,
01:37:57but the ones who benefit are the relatively small number
01:38:01of those who survive it and successfully reproduce
01:38:04and they benefit because large numbers of their competitors
01:38:07simply can't reproduce in such a hostile environment.
01:38:09- So that's your line from the very beginning
01:38:12saying that running the race
01:38:13results in everybody moving more slowly.
01:38:16- Yes, exactly.
01:38:18The female race slows everybody down, but someone still wins.
01:38:22And it doesn't matter that the whole reproductive output
01:38:25has dropped for the fact that they still continue to win
01:38:29this individually based race.
01:38:31- The genes aren't smart enough to realize
01:38:34that if there is no future civilization,
01:38:37your progeny have a bad future.
01:38:41We've evolved under circumstances
01:38:46where that hasn't been an issue.
01:38:47Therefore, if you relatively have more kids
01:38:51than the next woman, that's good for you.
01:38:53When you start to scale this across an entire civilization,
01:38:57what ends up happening is it's good for you,
01:39:00but over time this is gonna become very bad for everybody,
01:39:03including you.
01:39:04- Yep.
01:39:06Yes, you're correct, but with one caveat though.
01:39:09- I always get something wrong, it's okay.
01:39:11- No, no, no, you didn't get anything wrong.
01:39:12You're correct so far, but except that here's the kicker.
01:39:17So you would be correct
01:39:20if the end point of this was actually
01:39:22that it's just bad for everybody.
01:39:24Because you're right, evolution is not,
01:39:26it's not teleological and it cannot see the consequences.
01:39:29If an individual population finds itself in a local maxima,
01:39:34some sort of local adaptive thing,
01:39:35it will be selected for to stay there
01:39:37even if the inevitable outcome of that trait
01:39:41or that behavior is that the entire species goes extinct.
01:39:44Evolution has no mechanism for protecting against that.
01:39:46So you would be right if the end point of this manipulative
01:39:50reproductive suppression was in fact,
01:39:53just the end of all of these lineages, but it's not.
01:39:56And this is where it gets perhaps even,
01:39:59well, I think it gets even more interesting.
01:40:01So this is what I, so what happens at the end of,
01:40:05when civilizations crash and fall,
01:40:08you don't actually see an end to those genetic lineages.
01:40:12What you see is those genetic lineages,
01:40:14some of them, a small number of them,
01:40:15those who are there at the end,
01:40:18actually becoming the founder population
01:40:21or a part of the founder population of what rises.
01:40:24So you can sort of think of it as like,
01:40:26almost like this really kind of dire game of musical chairs.
01:40:30Now, if you can sense that the musical chairs play
01:40:33and each round, you know,
01:40:34someone doesn't get a chair and that lineage drops out,
01:40:36you know, each round somebody doesn't reproduce
01:40:39and a lineage drops out.
01:40:41If you can sense that the end is near,
01:40:44then you actually want the end to come
01:40:47before you end up being the one
01:40:49that doesn't find a chair in one of the rounds.
01:40:52So once female behavior reaches this really intense,
01:40:55reproductive suppression stage,
01:40:57and we start seeing all of the social science
01:40:59that this is happening,
01:41:00like a massive drop in the decline of sex,
01:41:03sorry, a massive drop in the price of sex,
01:41:06increased casual sex, vulgarity, decreasing marriage,
01:41:10decreasing birth rates,
01:41:11and a whole bunch of other social factors
01:41:13that all point to this being the stage of society
01:41:16where we're at.
01:41:17They all act as cues to sort of intensify this behavior
01:41:21as everybody vies for a chair at the end.
01:41:25Everybody wants to be one of the lineages left standing
01:41:27because what's the genetic prize
01:41:30if you are one of the lineages left standing
01:41:32is that you get to be part, if you're a woman,
01:41:36you will get to be because when you get invaded,
01:41:39it's the women who survive and reproduce,
01:41:41it's not the men, you get to be part
01:41:45of the founder population of a new society
01:41:49that will go through a large expansion phase.
01:41:52So you may have started off, your lineages may have say,
01:41:55like, you know, lineages are not this separate,
01:41:57but for sake of argument, your lineage may be, you know,
01:42:00one of 10,000 in the population at the start of this game.
01:42:04But if you're, you know, one of just 50 lineages
01:42:08that are left and you become that
01:42:10as part of the founder population,
01:42:12then your representation of the population
01:42:14went from one in 10,000 to one in 50.
01:42:17And this is why it's the winners that just become,
01:42:20they, you know, the winners of this game
01:42:21become the founder population.
01:42:23And so it is in the interests of these winners
01:42:26to maintain genetic capacity for there to be losers
01:42:31so that they can win in the end, if that makes sense.
01:42:35It's a little bit like a kin selection,
01:42:37almost like a kin selection strategy.
01:42:39- Yeah, as the competition gets more fierce,
01:42:41you behave more fiercely
01:42:43because the gains relative are going to be greater
01:42:46because there are fewer people to compete with.
01:42:48So in some ways it's-
01:42:50- And you want the game to end too.
01:42:52You know, once it gets down to a relatively small birth rate,
01:42:56you want the game to end, you want the society to collapse
01:42:59and the next society to come in and start growing.
01:43:01You don't want your lineages to fall out
01:43:03two or three rounds from now
01:43:04'cause the game went on for two or three rounds longer.
01:43:06You begin to want it to end.
01:43:08And that's what we're seeing.
01:43:10I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit off topic,
01:43:12but jumping back to Helen Andrews' great feminization,
01:43:16I think that greater representation of women
01:43:19in society's institution,
01:43:21as opposed to pouring their efforts
01:43:22into society's reproduction is an inevitable result
01:43:26of this female inter-sectoral competition
01:43:28and manipulative reproductive suppression.
01:43:30And then an inevitable result of that
01:43:33is the gutting and the decline
01:43:35and the eventual collapse of these institutions.
01:43:39And so these things follow on necessarily from each other.
01:43:42And this is where I think,
01:43:44this is the bit that I think Helen doesn't get quite right.
01:43:47She attributes, as do many other people,
01:43:49I'm not sort of trying to single her out here,
01:43:50but she sort of attributes female behavior in the workplace
01:43:53to these misplaced motherhood motives.
01:43:56And I've got a few kind of theoretical problems with that.
01:43:59I don't think it, to me,
01:44:00I don't think it looks like motherhood behavior
01:44:02and I don't think that that argument
01:44:03sort of works especially well
01:44:04once you sort of scratch the surface of it.
01:44:06But I think an argument that does work very well
01:44:08is if we think that what women are actually selected for
01:44:11to do in these institutions
01:44:13is to actually completely flatten the meritocracy
01:44:16and to deprioritize productivity,
01:44:19because that's actually what explains
01:44:22female behavior in these institutions.
01:44:25And that I think is part of women realizing
01:44:27that the game of musical chairs is nearly at the end
01:44:30and they want to hasten the end
01:44:31before they end up finding themselves in a losing route.
01:44:34That's what I think is happening
01:44:35in the great feminization of the institutions.
01:44:37It is actually the systematic dismantling
01:44:40of those institutions.
01:44:41- Right, so Helen's perspective is that this is
01:44:45a quite pro-social or at least pro-child maternal instinct
01:44:51that's being applied to the workplace erroneously.
01:44:56Your perspective is that it's much less pro-social than that.
01:45:00It's actually highly competitive.
01:45:02It's inter-sexual competition,
01:45:05and this is happening almost as designed
01:45:08as opposed to a misfiring.
01:45:10- Exactly right.
01:45:11So a big central sort of part of what I'm proposing
01:45:15is that what we're seeing now across the board
01:45:18is not a misfire.
01:45:20It's not something going wrong.
01:45:23This is actually how human societies play out.
01:45:26This is actually what happens again and again and again.
01:45:29And so it can't be a misfire again and again and again.
01:45:33This is how the system operates.
01:45:34And so what I've tried to do is come up with an explanation
01:45:38that actually explains why it operates in this way
01:45:42and who actually would win such a genetic race
01:45:45in such a way that this kind of a system
01:45:47could then perpetuate cycle after cycle.
01:45:51- I suppose one perspective is
01:45:58the environmental mismatch is so great
01:46:03that a effective strategy is being applied erroneously.
01:46:09And yours is that the mismatch is still great,
01:46:14but the system is sufficiently adaptive and able to adjust
01:46:19that it's still performing kind of as intended
01:46:24even under novel circumstances.
01:46:26- Exactly, and look, I will sort of say
01:46:30that I am much less amenable I think
01:46:34than perhaps a lot of people
01:46:35to the basic idea of this evolutionary mismatch.
01:46:40This idea, the idea that we have changed the world so much
01:46:45that it now somehow is just,
01:46:47it is somehow no longer adapted to us or us to it.
01:46:49And so we just see all of this,
01:46:52we just see all these things happening
01:46:53that they can't really be sensibly accounted for
01:46:55because we've just got a human system
01:46:59operating in an environment where it just doesn't work.
01:47:03It just so weird things,
01:47:05unselected form, maladaptive things just happen.
01:47:07I'm not especially amenable to that basic principle
01:47:12because everything about the world that we live in
01:47:16can be sort of seen and considered
01:47:20as the human extended phenotype.
01:47:22The world did not just grow up spontaneously around us
01:47:27completely independent of our own biology
01:47:29and psychology and behavior.
01:47:30This is the world that we created.
01:47:33And so, yes, it has changed quite quickly,
01:47:37but it's changed in ways that our own evolved psychology
01:47:41and evolved biology decided to change it
01:47:44and responded to certain things.
01:47:47And so I'm much less,
01:47:50I think the types of things that took off
01:47:52that became popular, that became part of how we live
01:47:56versus those things that didn't itself
01:47:58was very strongly influenced
01:47:59by our evolved biology and psychology.
01:48:01So I'm just much less amenable to this idea
01:48:05that we can safely assume
01:48:06that there's just this massive mismatch
01:48:08and that allows us to write off
01:48:10a whole bunch of human behavior is just,
01:48:12oh, that's just because we've got smartphones now
01:48:13and that's just because we've got the internet
01:48:15and that's just because we've got the pill
01:48:16and that's just because, just because, just because.
01:48:19I don't, you know, I've never really seen
01:48:21that as a very profitable way.
01:48:23And I think one of the main problems
01:48:24with that type of thinking
01:48:26is it just makes it too easy to write off anything
01:48:29that you can't sort of explain
01:48:31as part of a adaptive functioning complex system
01:48:35as, oh yeah, but that's just because the world is weird.
01:48:38You know, I much prefer an argument
01:48:40where you at least try to not give anything that you see
01:48:45a free pass to not require an explanation
01:48:47for what's going on there.
01:48:48You've got to at least try to see.
01:48:50And I think if you do try to apply explanations,
01:48:52you actually find a lot of coherence
01:48:55in what has previously been dismissed as,
01:48:57oh, you know, this is just this new evolutionary thing
01:49:01we've got and so now people behave like this,
01:49:03but you know, there's no function to that behavior.
01:49:05There's no other explanation behind it.
01:49:07It's just 'cause the world is different now.
01:49:09I'm not really amenable to that approach at all.
01:49:12So I don't really have a lot of sympathy.
01:49:14I think they're kind of, you know,
01:49:17people who are trying to understand behavior
01:49:18dealing themselves get out of jail free cards, yeah.
01:49:23- Well, we'll see how much sympathy the internet has
01:49:26for the things that we've talked about today.
01:49:28If my recent track record is anything to go by,
01:49:30I already don't have a fucking career.
01:49:32Dr. Dani Solakowski, ladies and gentlemen.
01:49:35Dani, you're fascinating.
01:49:37I really appreciate you explaining this stuff.
01:49:39It's, there's a lot of conflicting narratives at the moment
01:49:43and someone who's spent so much time thinking about this
01:49:45is really cool to get some time to dig into.
01:49:49Where should people go
01:49:50to check out all of the stuff that you do?
01:49:52- Follow me on Twitter.
01:49:54So Dr. Dani S and anything else I do
01:49:57always gets put up there.
01:49:59So if you just go there and you just follow me,
01:50:01then you get to see everything that there is to see.
01:50:03- Heck yeah.
01:50:04Dani, I appreciate you.
01:50:05Thank you.
01:50:06- Brilliant, thanks very much.
01:50:07- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:50:10Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:50:12by the internet just yet.
01:50:14Here's another one that you should watch.
01:50:17Go on.

Key Takeaway

Female intrasexual competition is a fundamental organizing principle of social behavior that utilizes subtle and overt aggression to maximize relative reproductive advantages by sabotaging the fertility and relationship prospects of rivals.

Highlights

Female intrasexual competition is defined as an evolved suite of behaviors aimed at maximizing relative

Timeline

Defining Female Intrasexual Competition

Dr. Dani Sulikowski defines her research focus as the evolutionary psychology of human behavior, specifically focusing on how women compete for reproductive success. She explains that the goal is relative success, meaning one only needs to reproduce at a higher rate than the population average to "win" the evolutionary game. This can be achieved by either increasing one's own offspring count or putting a "foot on the brake" of a rival's reproductive potential. The discussion emphasizes that these behaviors are deeply rooted in genetic survival and frequent frequency shifts within a population. This foundational concept sets the stage for a darker look at social dynamics that are often overlooked in polite conversation.

The Role of Consciousness and Post-Hoc Justification

The speaker addresses the common question of whether women are consciously aware of their competitive and sometimes "nasty" behaviors. She argues that consciousness often acts as a post-hoc justification tool, where people create reasons for their actions after the evolved drive has already triggered the behavior. While women might not realize they are suppressing a rival's future fertility, they are often overtly aware of the "nastiness" in bullying or workplace ostracization. Dr. Sulikowski notes that certain ideologies, such as some branches of feminism, can provide a moral cover for reproductively inhibiting behaviors. This section highlights the gap between the ultimate evolutionary explanation and the proximate social excuses used in daily life.

Physical Attractiveness as a Competitive Signal

The conversation shifts to how physical appearance and clothing choices serve as signals in the mating market. An attractive woman entering a new social or professional setting often triggers ire because she is perceived as a high-value sexual rival. Dr. Sulikowski cites studies showing that women respond with more aggression toward those wearing revealing clothing, interpreting it as a signal of sexual aggressiveness. Interestingly, much of the "dolling up" women do is targeted at other women as a dominance signal rather than just to impress men. This explains why women often "dress down" in new groups to avoid triggering defensive counter-aggression from potential rivals. The segment concludes that these are not just socialized habits but evolved tendencies calibrated through experience.

Asymmetry Between Male and Female Competition

Dr. Sulikowski explains the fundamental biological differences between male and female competition strategies. Because female reproductive success is capped by biology, the "brake pedal" of suppression is a highly effective tool for women, whereas men focus almost entirely on the "gas pedal" of their own success. Men are described as being in a sprint race in their own lanes, while women are in a race where they frequently trip and pull back their competitors. This asymmetry leads to women developing superior social skills, lie detection abilities, and long-term social memory to navigate complex rivalries. The host notes that men are often blind to these subtle social maneuvers because they lack the biological incentive to play the same game. The section also touches on the "women are wonderful" effect, which can make it difficult for men to recognize female aggression.

Manipulative Dating and Relationship Advice

The speaker shares findings from academic studies showing that women consistently give more reproductively inhibiting advice to others than they would follow themselves. This includes encouraging other women to prioritize careers over family, stay in the workforce longer, or even "dump" partners. She highlights a massive discrepancy where "winners" of the competition espouse anti-natalist ideologies while personally securing committed relationships and children. Modern media articles promoting casual sex or suggesting that having a boyfriend is "cringe" are analyzed as large-scale manipulative signals. The segment even discusses the phenomenon of young women seeking sterilization as a "massive own goal" in the evolutionary game, often encouraged by older women who have already reproduced. This reveals how social contagion and ideological capture can lead individuals to sabotage their own biological interests.

Societal Cycles and the End-Game of Collapse

Dr. Sulikowski presents a controversial theory linking female intrasexual competition to the decline of civilizations. She argues that as societies become affluent and safe, the payoff for reproductive suppression increases, leading to falling birth rates and the "feminization" of institutions. Using Rome as an example, she suggests that civilizations go through cycles where elite women eventually prioritize competitive social status over reproduction. This transition leads to a hostile environment for mating where meritocracy is flattened and productivity declines. The data on female happiness is also mentioned, noting that despite the "liberation" narrative, married women with children consistently report higher life satisfaction than single childless women. This section posits that current social trends are not a novel "mismatch" but a recurring pattern in human history.

Toxic Masculinity and the Destruction of Mate Choice

The final section explores the branding of "toxic masculinity" as a tool of intrasexual competition that destroys female mate choice preferences. By labeling high-value masculine traits like social dominance and protectiveness as "toxic," the competition effectively skews the mating market and makes it harder for rivals to find quality partners. This results in a "beta-fication" of men and an environment where young men are afraid to approach women, further depressing the birth rate. Dr. Sulikowski critiques the concept of "evolutionary mismatch," arguing instead that our world is an extended phenotype of our evolved psychology. She concludes that we are currently in a "dire game of musical chairs" where the final survivors will form the founder population for the next societal cycle. The episode ends with a warning that these strategies, while individually adaptive for the "winners," eventually lead to terminal outcomes for the society at large.

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