16 Brutal Life Lessons for Ambitious People - Michael Smoak

English
CChris Williamson
정신 건강창업/스타트업경영/리더십자격증/평생교육다이어트/영양

Transcript

00:00:00"I have a hard time celebrating my achievements, because in my mind, it was my obligation to achieve it."
00:00:05Oh, the dilemma of the high achiever.
00:00:08I know you don't struggle with this at all, right?
00:00:10I know this truly.
00:00:11Game recognizes game, as they say.
00:00:13Yes, yes, all from a place of deep wounds and the desire to be adequate and enough.
00:00:17Yeah, I have a hard time celebrating my achievements and wins because it was in my mind.
00:00:21In my mind, it was my obligation to achieve them.
00:00:23And not only that, I think the group of people we hang out with, you hang out with, I hang out with,
00:00:28makes the exceptional seem extremely normal.
00:00:31I was having a conversation the other day with a friend who, both of us had long runs.
00:00:35And I was running 16, he was running 20.
00:00:38And there was a time a couple of years ago where you couldn't have paid me thousands of dollars to do anything but drive 16 miles.
00:00:43And the fact of the matter is, the average person thinks that's crazy.
00:00:45And there was a time where I was extremely proud of that.
00:00:48I remember running my first 10 miles.
00:00:51I remember where I was, I remember what I was doing.
00:00:53It was sunny, we were in Atlanta on the belt line.
00:00:55And I remember when it hit 10 and I hit stop on the Apple watch and I went, "Holy shit, I just ran 10 miles."
00:01:02And then now it's just, it's just a normal and the carrot keeps moving for the high achiever.
00:01:08So I think the battle has now become learning to be content in the things that we achieve.
00:01:14You know, this was, this was a goal of mine, sitting down with you and being on this podcast, I've listened to it for years.
00:01:18And it's incredible to be in it with you right now.
00:01:20It's truly an honor because you can interview anybody in the world.
00:01:23And yet here I sit.
00:01:25And so what, what is the, what is the line between sitting in the pride and the humility and the graciousness and gratitude of the achievement and then moving the needle?
00:01:34I think you alluded to this in an episode you did a while ago, talking about how you forgot to celebrate the wins along the way, which led to an inevitable case of burnout.
00:01:43And when we were here at the podcast, at the four-way podcast the other day with Sean and George, we talked about the importance of romanticizing every single thing in your life.
00:01:53So that way, when the big achievement comes, it doesn't feel like an obligation.
00:01:57It feels like a victory and you can truly sit in it before you move on to the next thing.
00:02:01It's strange, I think people that have high standards assume that they should always win.
00:02:08They should always succeed.
00:02:09And that turns success from a cause for celebration into the minimum level of acceptable performance.
00:02:18Like success simply becomes what's expected of you and anything less than success would be a failure.
00:02:24And yeah, it's the habituation that we see, hedonic adaptation.
00:02:28People talk about it for you buy a new car and it's all exciting.
00:02:31And then pretty quickly you get used to it.
00:02:33You move into a new house and you're thinking about it for so long and you were looking on Zoopla and Rightmove and you were comparing it.
00:02:38And this is what would, and then it's just the place that you put your shoes at the end of the day after a while.
00:02:44But a much more sort of pernicious place for this is in personal growth.
00:02:47It's in your own capacity.
00:02:48So previously your old PR that you celebrated at the time is now a warm-up set.
00:02:55And the same thing goes for the status that you have and your precision with the way that you do your art form.
00:03:03The speed at which you can complete a particular task, whether you're a salesperson or you manage a retail store or you write a blog or whatever.
00:03:12You want to permanently be pushing the limits and as you raise the bar, that means that you will always feel like you suck.
00:03:19Because your standards continually outstrip your ability to deliver them.
00:03:23And that's good in some ways because it keeps forcing you to progress.
00:03:27But it does mean that you live in this gap, right?
00:03:29You don't live in the game, the comparison between where you were and where you are.
00:03:32You live in the gap between where you are and where you want to be.
00:03:35That's not where you could be because sometimes you can want to be further than where you could be.
00:03:40And I told you that story about Alexander the Great, which is how we read the quote of Alexander saying,
00:03:48"And Alexander wept, for he saw there were no more worlds to conquer,"
00:03:52as his ambition being able to outstrip reality's ability to challenge him.
00:03:57Oh, he was bigger than the world and he reached the edge of it and couldn't keep going but would have done.
00:04:04But that's not the actual quote.
00:04:05The actual quote is him realizing that there are infinite worlds and he hasn't even yet become the Lord of One.
00:04:12So he's crying at how puny and minuscule his accomplishments are.
00:04:16And I think that that's actually much closer to how we all feel.
00:04:19Like who has ever reached the edge of their ambition?
00:04:22Their ambition continues to outstrip it.
00:04:24You're right.
00:04:24If you raise your standards, you regularly disparage your accomplishments even in the process of them.
00:04:30And there's a John Bellion song, "Why?" with Luke Combs.
00:04:33And in it he says, "If the higher I climb is the further I fall, then why love anything at all?"
00:04:39He's talking about opening up to someone, but I think the same thing works for just hard charging and overachieving.
00:04:46Well, if I permanently overachieve, then eventually I might get there, but you never arrive.
00:04:50When you said, I think you alluded to a version of it in there, but you said something to me the other day.
00:04:55Our desire always outpaces reality's ability to meet it.
00:05:00And I chose to just listen to people like you, people like Jim Carrey, who say,
00:05:06I pray that everyone gets rich and famous and has everything they ever want so they can realize it's not the answer.
00:05:11And a lot of people go, OK, great, but let me just do that anyway.
00:05:15And then they get to the hedonic treadmill and then they get to the end of their rope.
00:05:18There is no end, right? The goal is not money.
00:05:21It's not status. It's not even authenticity, which is something I speak on a lot.
00:05:26For me, the goal of authenticity is the byproduct of that.
00:05:28The goal is, in my opinion, to stay tapped into inspiration and deeper levels of inspiration.
00:05:33And there are things that always get in the way. Well, I want more money or I get an idea and I want to act on that idea.
00:05:39But I just chose to listen to you guys talking about how you get everything you want and then you realize it's not the answer.
00:05:46Why would I then go? Yeah, but screw what they said. I'm just going to do it anyway.
00:05:49So I can be in the same state of not suffering, but mild discomfort when I realize I didn't get what I truly wanted.
00:05:55And so with the Alexander the Great quote where he realizes how minuscule he is and he weeps over that,
00:06:02maybe there's value in realizing how minuscule we are and being grateful and how minuscule we are,
00:06:07because then all we have to worry about is, and this is where my faith comes in, just being a servant.
00:06:13For me, I feel fulfilled if I'm serving others. And that's a really broad mission that can look a lot of different ways.
00:06:21It can be saying hello to Gerard, the guy I crossed the crosswalk with today outside of my building.
00:06:26It can be asking the barista how their day is going.
00:06:29It can be putting on a podcast that a whole lot of people are going to see with the intent of delivering a message that might make one of their lives better.
00:06:35If I just say, how can I serve someone today? Then that's fulfillment.
00:06:38And Tony Robbins says, material success without spiritual fulfillment can feel like the ultimate failure.
00:06:44And that's why you get people at the top with all the money and the cars and the women and the success and they feel empty inside and they take their own life because they're depressed.
00:06:51So for me, I think the antidote is realizing we're dust and not weeping within that, but being deeply, deeply grateful that that's all we are.
00:06:57There's obviously a lot of sexiness around memento mori.
00:07:01People think about, remember that you're going to die, stoicism thing.
00:07:04They've got it on a coin that Ryan Holiday's given to them.
00:07:07I think that there's a memento mori for productivity.
00:07:10You will never get on top of all of the tasks that you have to do.
00:07:13This is an Oliver Berkman thing where he says, there will never come a day where you have completed all of your tasks.
00:07:19I think about the fact that one day I'll die and my email inbox will continue to accumulate messages.
00:07:26People will get pissed that I'm not replying to their emails, not knowing that I'm dead.
00:07:31And maybe that'll be lots of people because it'll happen suddenly and I'll be young and maybe it'll be a few people because I'll be old and they'll have known about it.
00:07:39One day that will happen, it will keep going, so you have this, it's kind of like workload entropy.
00:07:49You are going to be defeated by the entropy of this workload bearing down on you.
00:07:53And it's just never going to stop.
00:07:54So I think realizing that's not morbid, but it should feel liberating, which is I think what you're getting at.
00:08:02You should be liberated by this.
00:08:03Look, you're never going to get on top of it all.
00:08:05Yes, there's things that you need to do.
00:08:06You want accolades, you want status, acclaim, external achievements, cool, go get it.
00:08:11Just know that if it feels a bit more hollow than you thought it would, that that's kind of by design, it's always going to be that.
00:08:19And a much quicker way to try and feel fulfilled is to go half.
00:08:27What if I just had fun?
00:08:28What would it be like if I had a little bit more fun?
00:08:30This guy asked me last night, I have this burning ambition, the Q&A of one of my work in progress shows, I have this burning ambition.
00:08:37I can't turn it off.
00:08:38What should I do?
00:08:41I said, just become really, really successful.
00:08:46It's the quickest solution.
00:08:48Use the fuel.
00:08:49Hey, man, I've got this massive gas tank and I can't take my foot off the gas pedal.
00:08:53All right, drive until you run out of fuel.
00:08:55Like just go, keep going and then eventually you'll run out.
00:08:59So it's a strange one though, right?
00:09:00Because obviously the difficulty of this discussion is that saying to anybody who has a burning ambition that the end result of their ambition is not going to make them happy is like telling a hungry man that food doesn't really matter as a fat man.
00:09:17And you're stripping away from people the very fuel that they want to use to keep going.
00:09:23And it feels a little bit like rug pulling someone's dream out from underneath them.
00:09:27So it's a very contentious point to talk about, but I think I'm seeing so many more people discuss it as people speed run careers.
00:09:34I mean, people can get to the top of a career in a pretty short amount of time and then it's not what they expected.
00:09:40So I think more and more people are having this mini existential quarter life crisis thing.
00:09:46Well, I think the objective then is not to use these things to fulfill a whole or a longing inside of you.
00:09:53It's to treat it like part of the game.
00:09:56It's all just fun growing the social media, growing the podcast, doing the things that I'm doing is not because I'm searching for a deeper meaning within myself.
00:10:04Like that guy saying, I have, I have relentless burning ambition and I can't get rid of it.
00:10:08You're right.
00:10:08He shouldn't try to bury the thing that's on top.
00:10:11He should explore it and go into it and understand it and then decide if it's valid or not, and then can make a decision about his identity from there.
00:10:18That's how I view this.
00:10:19There was a time where I remember hearing, I alluded to it earlier, but hearing you talk about hitting the subscriber milestones for the podcast and just going, okay, onto the next one.
00:10:29Or the greatest you had was maybe a dinner that you went through with, but you continued to dangle the carrot and you got burned out.
00:10:35And I remember thinking a million followers on TikTok is going to feel different.
00:10:40And then it happened.
00:10:40And then I just didn't, it was okay.
00:10:42I'm going to go eat dinner now.
00:10:43I just don't know what to do with this.
00:10:45And so it's, it's a fun milestone.
00:10:47It's fun to celebrate, but it's not what our identity is within.
00:10:51And I think that's what a lot of people are looking for.
00:10:54They're looking for the opportunity, the ability to feel whole, to feel adequate, to feel enough, important and significant.
00:11:00That's what a lot of people are looking for, significance, belonging, mattering, seen, heard, and understood.
00:11:05If you can't talk about it, you aren't healed from it.
00:11:08What's that mean to you?
00:11:11You're only as healed from something as your ability to share it.
00:11:15It means everything to me.
00:11:18So my dad passed away, January 19th of 2025, and it was a long, arduous, painful process.
00:11:24Moved home after a long breakup, lived with that person, came home to reset.
00:11:29Thought I'd just get to spend some time with the parents before I moved to Florida.
00:11:32And then my dad's not quite right.
00:11:34I hadn't seen him in about a month.
00:11:35So he was regressing quickly and I could tell he didn't look right.
00:11:39And what I didn't know what happened would be over the next seven months, his health slowly regressing with no real answers as to what was wrong with him, which was really the crazy part.
00:11:50We didn't know what was killing my dad, which is a really weird place to be because it was the epitome of helpless.
00:11:56There was nothing the doctors could do, I could do.
00:11:59And we'll maybe we'll dive deeper into the story later, but I remember not even being able to answer the question, how's your dad doing without that pain or that tightness in my chest and my throat coming up.
00:12:11I couldn't even say he's fine.
00:12:12He's not doing well.
00:12:14I couldn't share anything about it.
00:12:16And 36 hours before he passed, I went and gave a presentation and I battled it, but he insisted that I go give this talk at a conference in Dallas and fly right back home.
00:12:28Because I was afraid he'd pass while I was gone.
00:12:30And he said, what are you worried?
00:12:31I'm going to die?
00:12:32And I said, yeah.
00:12:34And he said, so what?
00:12:36We said everything we need to say, go live your life.
00:12:38I'll be mad if you don't do this.
00:12:40And I did it and he, and he hung on.
00:12:42But I remember there's a part in that presentation where I talk about conviction and how important health is and how that's one of my core messages in my content is you have a, you can have a laundry list of problems until you have a health problem.
00:12:54And then there's only one problem.
00:12:56And I lived it.
00:12:57But I couldn't even talk about my dad because there's a picture of him on the slide.
00:13:02When I get to that, I told you about this and it was the first time I'd ever shared that story.
00:13:06And it's the day we found out he was going to die.
00:13:08I took that photo for me.
00:13:09I didn't think I'd ever share it, but it's powerful because it was the, it was the moment that I remember being or thinking as a kid would be the worst day of my life.
00:13:20And I couldn't, I was on stage and I just broke.
00:13:22I had to go silent for 30 seconds in front of 300 people and gather myself because I wasn't healed.
00:13:29I hadn't done the work.
00:13:30I hadn't let myself grieve.
00:13:32I hadn't let myself be angry.
00:13:34I hadn't let myself be sad.
00:13:36And now I can sit here with you on the eighth biggest podcast in the world.
00:13:41Congratulations.
00:13:42That's super cool.
00:13:43Suck me up.
00:13:44I will.
00:13:46And, and tell that full story without pain because I went all the way into the emotion.
00:13:52So you cannot, I don't believe, I believe this, you cannot heal what you cannot feel and you cannot feel what you are unwilling to reveal.
00:14:02And for me, it was about talking about how I felt, letting myself be angry and telling someone I'm angry at my dad, that he didn't look after his health more tightly.
00:14:11But my first instinct was to manage the emotion.
00:14:13How dare I be angry?
00:14:15He's dying.
00:14:16How dare I do that?
00:14:17But that's not how you heal.
00:14:20We don't, we don't heal and do the work by burying our emotions.
00:14:23Cause what you bury will bury you.
00:14:25It will come around in your subconscious mind and run the show.
00:14:28So instead I allowed myself, I gave myself full permission to explore the emotion of anger and then ask myself, is this valid?
00:14:35Is this real?
00:14:36No, but I couldn't get there until I processed it.
00:14:39And then it was sadness and grief and guilt.
00:14:43And at times happiness, full permission, full permission to express the full spectrum of emotion with which I was existing in.
00:14:51And now I can use that story to help people.
00:14:55And that is an incredible source of fulfillment.
00:14:57I heard a great Christian creator say once, your purpose in this life is to take what God delivered you from and turn around and help other people do the same thing.
00:15:07And for me, my biggest fear was always my dad dying.
00:15:09It was the grief that would come with that, but I made it to the other side.
00:15:12And now I get to share that story because I am healed from it.
00:15:16I don't cry or choke up when I talk about my old man.
00:15:18And there was a time where if you'd asked me this a year ago, I'd have to probably just say, hold on and pause.
00:15:26So that's what that means to me.
00:15:27If you, if you cannot talk about it, you are not healed from it and it will run your life subconsciously in some way, your relationships, your work, your body, your health.
00:15:38So whatever is stirring around inside you that you suppress, understand that suppression of expression leads to depression.
00:15:43And until you express those emotions, you are not going to be delivered from them.
00:15:50It's interesting when we try to dictate the way that we should feel.
00:15:55I'm angry, I shouldn't be angry, but you are.
00:15:58And I think this is a big part of what ACT Therapy is trying to achieve, acceptance and commitment therapy.
00:16:05That the acceptance part is, this is just happening and I have to allow it to sort of move through me.
00:16:12And if you don't, that's when you begin a relationship, not just with the emotion, but with your relationship to the relationship of the emotion.
00:16:20I shouldn't feel shame.
00:16:22And then you feel bitterness about your shame and then you feel frustration at your bitterness about your shame.
00:16:25And it's this infinite regress of saying things to yourself about something.
00:16:29My partner did something and it really made me feel agitated, made me feel envious or insecure.
00:16:40I shouldn't feel insecure.
00:16:41You do.
00:16:43You're allowed to feel it.
00:16:44It doesn't mean that you need to act on it.
00:16:46And maybe you do need to act on it.
00:16:47But if you just deny the emotion, I think there's a lot of insight that comes out of that.
00:16:52But it's not cool to do that.
00:16:56Correct.
00:16:57It doesn't flex particularly well.
00:17:01We confuse suppression for strength.
00:17:05And they're not the same thing at all.
00:17:08What's that John Mulaney bit?
00:17:10I had Irish parents, so my dad's belief was I'm going to take this emotion and then bury it down and then one day I'll die.
00:17:16That's the Irish Catholic approach to a masculine emotion.
00:17:20But you're right.
00:17:21Most people are intellectualizing and managing their emotions.
00:17:26I'm pissed, but I shouldn't be.
00:17:28Well, now you don't get the clarity on the other side of the processed emotion.
00:17:31In my opinion, on the other side of processed emotion is divine revelation.
00:17:35Like I got to nothing but love and gratitude for the relationship that I had with my old man on the other side of letting myself be angry, sad and grieve instead of burying it.
00:17:45But that's an that is also an uncomfortable process.
00:17:49It's not suffering, but it's pain.
00:17:51It's a lot of pain.
00:17:52What did Arthur Brooks say on your show?
00:17:54Pain is, or suffering is pain times resistance.
00:17:59And if you can just eliminate the resistance, pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
00:18:03And suffering becomes part of the equation when you resist the pain instead of letting it move through you.
00:18:09Not be consumed by it, but let it teach you something, understand it, and then move through it.
00:18:15And then on the other side, that is the work.
00:18:17Everyone says, oh, I've done a lot of work on myself.
00:18:20That's the work that I believe people say that they do or want to do.
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00:19:41What did you learn from that process with your dad?
00:19:43What was it like going through that?
00:19:45Oh, man. I was having a conversation with my friend, Chris Turner. His dad passed eight months before mine.
00:19:53And it was right in the time when he got sick and I was in denial.
00:19:58I was trying to get him better, doctor's appointments, supplements, you name it.
00:20:01I wasn't ready to surrender to the experience.
00:20:05And Chris brought up this interesting point, and I'll never forget.
00:20:09He said in tribes and other cultures all across the world, there's a coming of man ritual.
00:20:16The boy leaves the tribe, goes and gets the lion, comes back a man, goes and hunts the elk, comes back a man.
00:20:20There's this thing that turns that is a definitive turn in his age from boyhood to manhood.
00:20:26And in America, we don't have that.
00:20:29And Chris pointed out that even in the Lion King, it's a great example of this, right?
00:20:33Mufasa dies and Simba goes on this great journey and acquires friends along the way,
00:20:37experiences adversity, develops enemies, almost dies a few times, comes out the other side, king of the pride.
00:20:44For me, my dad's death and the months that led up to that of pain and suffering and anxiety,
00:20:50I think were the parts of me that were still a kid I had to familiarize myself with,
00:20:56but they couldn't necessarily stay with me if I was going to endure that experience.
00:21:01So I think that, truthfully, I think I became a man on the other side of that.
00:21:06But what I learned was my nervous system's threshold for stress was a lot greater than I thought it was.
00:21:14Dude, there were nights, man, where you're constantly on edge when someone is that sick.
00:21:21So my dad had something called orthostatic hypotension, which means if he stands up,
00:21:26the blood can't adequately pump to his brain, so his blood pressure plummets, which means—
00:21:30Is that a kind of POTS, similar to POTS?
00:21:33I'm not sure. It was a byproduct of a vein in his liver being totally destroyed.
00:21:37That was really the root of all of his issues.
00:21:39So he would stand up and his blood pressure would drop to like 80 over 50 and he would pass out.
00:21:46And so my dad was a massive fall risk.
00:21:48And so there was always anxiety with him just getting up to go get a glass of water.
00:21:52And there were just so many nights I remember at least half a dozen times my mom,
00:21:56because I moved home to help care for him, just barreling into my room.
00:22:00"He's fallen again. I need your help." And going from a dead sleep to having to go pick your dad up off the floor
00:22:06and like clean the blood off his head at 3 a.m., dude, that'll light up your CNS.
00:22:12But it taught me what I was capable of. I could handle so much more stress than I realized.
00:22:19And it dissolved me of my ego.
00:22:23I remember people kept asking me how I was doing when shit kind of hit the fan on the internet.
00:22:28And I was getting all the crazy comments.
00:22:31And I just kept thinking like I had to carry my dying father to the bath and dress him.
00:22:36Like you think an internet comment bothers me? It doesn't.
00:22:39Like I know what real suffering is and I'm grateful for that.
00:22:43Like I really am because it raised my threshold for stress so much.
00:22:48I'm so much more patient. I'm so much more empathetic to people's pain.
00:22:53I understand the value in hardship.
00:22:57I appreciate the relationship I had more, and I did a ton when he was alive,
00:23:00but more than I ever could now that he's gone.
00:23:04Because I remember I had Peter Krohn on my podcast
00:23:09and we had a conversation around my dad and he started sort of coaching me through it.
00:23:13And he noticed I kept saying, "I lost my dad." And he said, "I want you to stop saying that.
00:23:18You didn't lose anything. You found a relationship that was wonderful enough to feel this much pain for."
00:23:24Which means at one point there was great joy.
00:23:26And so what I learned from that is that I'm incredibly blessed to have a man that if at the end of my life,
00:23:31I'm half the human being he was, I'll be proud. Half the dad, half the husband, half the person.
00:23:37I'll be proud. I learned what really matters
00:23:42because at the time my internet career was starting to really take off.
00:23:45But all I really cared about was my dad getting better.
00:23:49And I heard a sermon from the church I go to in Atlanta 2819.
00:23:54Pastor Phillip Anthony Mitchell talks about when the church is really starting to grow.
00:23:57And I didn't know this. This was the craziest part.
00:23:58I picked a sermon during their period of rest in December from two years ago.
00:24:03And he's talking about the tension between what you want and what God's will for your life is.
00:24:10The tension between that and how painful that can be.
00:24:13And his dad was dying at the time that 2819, which is now the fastest growing church in the world,
00:24:19was really starting to explode. And all he wanted was his dad to be better.
00:24:23He didn't care about the success. He was so grounded in his real life
00:24:28that he was almost detached from whatever was to come next with the success of the church.
00:24:33And now it's this incredible life-changing impactful thing for millions of people across the world.
00:24:38And so it taught me to stay grounded no matter how crazy
00:24:41or cool the achievements of this career get. And they are incredible.
00:24:46And I am overwhelmed with gratitude that
00:24:48because people chose to watch my videos on the internet, I get to sit down with you.
00:24:52That's the coolest thing in the world, man. Like, I live in a video game.
00:24:55And I'm just trying to steward it properly. I'm trying to steward the blessing properly.
00:24:59So I'd say the biggest lesson is that I realized that every hard thing we go through
00:25:05makes us more of who we're meant to be. And I think who God designed us to be.
00:25:08I referenced that scripture to you the other day, James, chapter 1, verse 2 through 4.
00:25:14It says, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds,
00:25:17because you know the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
00:25:20Let perseverance run its course so that you may be complete and lacking nothing."
00:25:26I am more myself. I feel more myself
00:25:29and more rooted in my sense of identity, who I am
00:25:32and what I feel God's called me to do than I ever was before I went through that with my old man.
00:25:37And that's why I think we should count it all joy. The worst thing I've ever been through has been,
00:25:43God willing, somebody else's greatest breakthrough because I've helped them battle grief, manage grief,
00:25:48feel grief, and come out the other side liberated from it.
00:25:51And that's the greatest gift I could have ever been given.
00:25:55- I had a conversation with Alain de Botton toward the back end of last year, and he has this line.
00:25:58He says, "The best men have been broken."
00:26:01And I asked him, "How can you tell? What do you mean, and how can you tell?"
00:26:07He says, "There's just a luck. There's a twinkle in the eye.
00:26:12There's a kind of humility. There's a humbleness.
00:26:15There's a recognition of their own limits, even if they're really high."
00:26:20And I definitely see that, especially after getting kicked in the nuts permanently for the last two years
00:26:28with my health and having to manage an awful lot of things.
00:26:32It does push you, when you're going against the grain of life,
00:26:36you begin to look at your behavior and your patterns and your motivations and your goals
00:26:44under more of a microscope than you do when things are going well.
00:26:47You feel the texture of existence more.
00:26:50Kind of like swimming into a river as opposed to being lazy-riveted down it.
00:26:54You feel all of the small elements come past you.
00:26:59And that's a real uncomfortable situation to be in at the time, but it's a beautiful gift afterward.
00:27:06And yeah, I agree as well that almost all of the greatest accomplishments that you've done in your entire life
00:27:14have been germinated from your lowest points.
00:27:19And adversity is a terrible thing to waste in that regard.
00:27:22Let me ask you, when you were going through all of that, and I told you how much I appreciated you,
00:27:28that's probably one of the more vulnerable things you've ever put on the internet.
00:27:30I mean, it's you in hospital beds getting blood transfusions, all kinds of crazy shit.
00:27:35It's very vulnerable.
00:27:36And that's a superpower, by the way, you probably empowered.
00:27:39I mean, I know you empowered me to talk about it because I went and made an episode that day.
00:27:43It was like, Hey guys, I feel like shit all the time and I've been pretending I don't.
00:27:47So I'm grateful that you did that.
00:27:48Thank you.
00:27:50But when you were in that, what really, what mattered to you in that moment or in those months?
00:27:57Because I know it got bad at times.
00:27:58It was very protracted, from about two years ago was when I started trying to unearth what was going on.
00:28:08And about two and a half years ago, when I got COVID before I went on tour with James,
00:28:14was when I'd started to notice I was getting a bit more tired.
00:28:18I didn't really want to see my friends so much on a nighttime.
00:28:20It was strange.
00:28:21I was feeling lassitude, which is the emotion of being ill.
00:28:26I didn't want to eat new things.
00:28:27Didn't want to go to new places.
00:28:29And I was getting more tired and I was getting a bit of brain fog and I was ripping.
00:28:332023, it felt like my brain was on fire.
00:28:37It felt like I was permanently on cocaine.
00:28:39It was like being 23 again.
00:28:40And I noticed the change and I didn't like it.
00:28:46And that got worse and worse and worse throughout 2024.
00:28:50And it got to the stage where we would be flying around.
00:28:53I remember we did a trip to New York with Gymshark and then I flew to Florida to do Chris Bumstead
00:28:58and Ben Shapiro.
00:29:00And we arrive in fucking Baton Rouge.
00:29:05Is that in Florida?
00:29:06Is that what I'm talking about?
00:29:07Yeah, Baton Rouge.
00:29:08No, that's in Louisiana.
00:29:09No.
00:29:10Where the fuck was it?
00:29:11Where the fuck did we go?
00:29:13Boca Raton.
00:29:14Right amongst syllables.
00:29:15Baton Rouge, Boca Raton.
00:29:16Boca Raton.
00:29:17Whatever the fuck.
00:29:18I mean, it's geographically very far away, but linguistically it's right next to you.
00:29:22Yeah, they're both shitholes.
00:29:23Sorry.
00:29:24No, Boca's nice.
00:29:28So we fly in and we've got an episode the next day, or maybe we'd recorded with Ben that day.
00:29:36And it was 6.30 PM at night and I went to bed and I woke up at 7 AM in the morning.
00:29:42And the guys had gone for dinner and had some adventure thing.
00:29:46And I just felt so on the outside.
00:29:49You know, I felt very much on the outside.
00:29:51I wasn't me, I didn't have access to me.
00:29:53And it just kept getting worse.
00:29:54It kept getting worse, kept getting worse.
00:29:55I was getting more tired and I was trying to take a break.
00:29:58I wasn't pushing myself as hard.
00:29:59So I'm like, I'm being more gentle with myself.
00:30:01And the more gentle I am, the more tired I get.
00:30:04And all I wanted was to have access back to the texture of my mind.
00:30:07I really love inhabiting my own mind.
00:30:11It's a really lovely place to be for the most part.
00:30:15But I remember one of my friends, her dad was ill, and ill for a long time.
00:30:21And was getting, his mental capacities were being diminished over time.
00:30:29And he turned to her once in the hospital bed and he said,
00:30:33"This illness has taken everything from me.
00:30:36It's even taken myself."
00:30:38And I think what he meant by that was, especially for smart people or people that are competent
00:30:43and feel like they have agency and sovereignty in the world,
00:30:46what you rely on is your mental faculties.
00:30:49I think homosy's got two fears in life.
00:30:52One is chronic pain and the other is dementia.
00:30:56Because the first one is just suffering for the rest of time.
00:31:00And the second one makes him a burden that can't fix himself.
00:31:02And that really stuck with me.
00:31:06And I don't know why it's one of those random lines that somebody just says about someone else.
00:31:10And it stuck with me.
00:31:11And then as I started to go through it, I realized, "Oh, this is what I feel.
00:31:16This is how I feel.
00:31:17I feel like this is taking away my own capacity to fix myself.
00:31:21And what if this spiral just continues to go down, continues to go down?"
00:31:25And I guess one other kind of interesting lesson is how hard it is to not try hard.
00:31:33You need to try hard at not trying hard.
00:31:35To be gentle with yourself requires effort.
00:31:38But if you apply too much effort, that's no longer being gentle with yourself.
00:31:41And then if you get it wrong, you start to whip yourself into submission
00:31:44for not being sufficiently gentle with yourself, which is not being gentle about your ungentleness.
00:31:49And a lot of this, I think, is to do with the shame, the suppression of things.
00:31:55But it's also to do with your patterns.
00:31:57What am I used to? What's the pace that I'm used to working at?
00:32:00There will be lots of people for whom this isn't going to hit them until they're 60.
00:32:07And there will also be people for whom it'll hit them when they're 15.
00:32:10And you think, "Fuck, I really did want to have to learn this lesson. Not now. Why now?
00:32:16Why does it have to be now? Could it not have been? I don't deserve it now."
00:32:21But the realization is you're not bulletproof, but you do have more capacity than you think.
00:32:29So it's a recognition of resilience and fragility at the same time.
00:32:35And I think that's where the humility comes from. That's where the empathy comes from.
00:32:38That's what Alain was talking about.
00:32:40But I love that line, "Adversity is a terrible thing to waste."
00:32:44Because you develop a chip on your shoulder, and you have something to prove again.
00:32:52Especially after a while, people run out of gas in some regard.
00:32:56You know, the kids that didn't believe in you in school, the bullies that mocked you,
00:33:01or the teacher that wasn't supportive, or the coach that benched you.
00:33:06That will power a young person for a good while, but not forever.
00:33:11And it's kind of nice to make an existential enemy every so often.
00:33:16I think it's good to just have, "For this season, there's a new bad guy in town, and this time it's this thing."
00:33:22And I'm not going to be able to get my revenge on him now, but in a couple of seasons,
00:33:26I actually reckon that this is going to be the next metamorphosis thing that I come out of.
00:33:32And take a little pit stop, or a little lily pad that you can jump off to get to whatever the next level is.
00:33:38But it requires you to take a dip first.
00:33:42In other news, I've been in the gym for nearly two decades now.
00:33:45And it wasn't until the past few years that I had the best training run of my entire life.
00:33:50And a huge part of that was the RP Strength app.
00:33:53Actual scientists built this thing around one obsession, having a science-backed path to maximizing muscle gain.
00:33:59It tells you how many sets, how many reps, the amount of weight that you need to use.
00:34:03So all you have to do is show up and do the thing.
00:34:06It adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing.
00:34:09And there are over 45 pre-made training programs and more than 250 technique videos built in.
00:34:15So you're not just lifting, you're lifting optimally to get the most out of your workouts.
00:34:18A lot of the time, I have less than an hour to be in the gym.
00:34:20And what I love about the RP app is that it takes that into account and adjusts my workout on the fly.
00:34:25So I know that I'm going to maximize how much time I've got available.
00:34:29For me, following a proper evidence-based plan has made a huge difference.
00:34:33And if you're serious about training and the gains that you want to make,
00:34:36I'm pretty sure that it'll do the same for you.
00:34:38Right now, you can follow the exact same training plan that I use
00:34:41and get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below
00:34:45or heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout.
00:34:51That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout.
00:34:56What's the biggest lesson you learned from that period of having such an issue with cognition and energy
00:35:02in a world where your cognition and energy is critical for your success?
00:35:05Literally the only thing that I do.
00:35:07The effects of a particular mold especially affects a particular area of the brain that's associated with word recall.
00:35:14All I do is recall words.
00:35:16It was like a purpose-built curse just for me.
00:35:19Like somebody had designed a malady only to impact the things that I needed to do.
00:35:24I could have been a lumberjack, and I'm sure I would have been tired,
00:35:27but I would have still been able to chop wood.
00:35:30Not this job. That was not good.
00:35:33The single biggest lesson that I learned throughout all of that.
00:35:40One that comes to mind is recognizing the fact that the people around you really do want to help.
00:35:52And that sounds like a very basic bitch insight.
00:35:55But I think a lot of people, especially if you're the competent one in your friend group,
00:35:59if you listen to podcasts like mine, watch content like yours, you're teaching your friends.
00:36:04From the outside, you look like you've got it all together.
00:36:07You're probably a leader in some form or another.
00:36:10Or maybe you have a good education, or you go to the gym, and you sort your life out.
00:36:15And your friends are the fat messes.
00:36:17Not you. Your friends are the fat messes.
00:36:20And that often, I think, makes it almost intimidating for our friends to help us.
00:36:26Because you go, "What am I going to tell Michael?
00:36:29He's got it all together. How can I step in and say,
00:36:33"Hey, man, you seem a little... Are you okay?" Or whatever.
00:36:38He'll have it all together.
00:36:39Or there'll be somebody way more competent than me in his life that's able to step in and help.
00:36:44But leaning on people, reaching out, and genuinely asking for help.
00:36:49I think I probably received more hugs in 2025 than the decade prior to that, sort of all combined.
00:36:57You know, I was doing, before live shows, if I was feeling really, really bad,
00:37:01I'd have Bennett giving me a hug while praying over me.
00:37:05And it just felt really nice.
00:37:07It was support.
00:37:09I'm stealing a bit of his nervous system and spirituality at the same time.
00:37:12That was cool.
00:37:13But it was just good.
00:37:14It was being able to lean on people as an only child.
00:37:20It's something that you have to learn through instruction, not emergence.
00:37:31You're not born with it.
00:37:34By age five, you've known what it is to have a fight with your brother
00:37:38and then hug and make up the next morning because you don't hate each other.
00:37:41And that's what it means for you and someone to disagree but still be on the same team.
00:37:45There is no learning that at any point.
00:37:49So yeah, the ability to lean on people without feeling less than was a big part of it.
00:37:54Were you scared?
00:37:56Yeah, terrified. Terrified.
00:37:58I finally felt like I'd arrived.
00:38:01I've done all of this stuff and I finally got myself to this country I've dreamed to live in for so long.
00:38:09The reason that you do the work is to get to the stage where you can do this,
00:38:15have my own space and have my own team and finally talk to the people that I want to
00:38:19for as long as I want about what I want.
00:38:22Just as it felt like I'd got my foot in the door and arrived,
00:38:26it felt like that had been whipped out from underneath me.
00:38:28It felt unfair.
00:38:30I think that's what a lot of people feel, unfairness.
00:38:33I think about this.
00:38:35I wonder how many people died.
00:38:38Someone gets hit by a car.
00:38:40Somebody gets shot on purpose or accidentally stray bullets.
00:38:45There's a mugging that goes wrong or somebody slips and falls from something.
00:38:48And in the final few moments before they die,
00:38:51how many of them were just surprised or felt like it was unfair?
00:38:57That has to be a huge proportion of people.
00:39:01I wasn't supposed to – this wasn't supposed to be me.
00:39:04And that's it.
00:39:06So it felt unfair.
00:39:08I'm glad you're, for the most part, on the other side of that now, it seems.
00:39:13Slowly, one step at a time.
00:39:15The world keeps on providing me new challenges to get over,
00:39:18but I'm definitely – I didn't need a bigger dose of humility.
00:39:23I didn't need any more ego stripping from me,
00:39:26but for one reason or another, that decided to happen.
00:39:31You've got another line that I disagree with and I wanted to talk about it.
00:39:35Great.
00:39:36Words can only hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.
00:39:39Yeah.
00:39:40Why do you disagree?
00:39:42Did you believe that the words of the people who tried to cancel you –
00:39:48soft cancellation, baby cancellation –
00:39:51Diet cancel?
00:39:52You're correct.
00:39:53Did you believe that they were true?
00:39:55No.
00:39:56Did you fear that other people might think that they were true?
00:39:59No.
00:40:00You didn't fear that other people might think that they were true?
00:40:02Someone had never heard of you before?
00:40:04No. Why would I fear?
00:40:06If it's completely out of my control, there's nothing to fear.
00:40:09That's where this lesson of surrender that I learned a long time ago comes back to.
00:40:15The pain that I was feeling – and this is, again, counted all joy when you face trials of many kinds.
00:40:21My threshold for stress is a lot higher than a few left-wing angry creators making nasty videos about me
00:40:27and people Photoshopping the MAGA hat on my head.
00:40:30It's pretty funny.
00:40:31I took a sound photo at one point with me holding a MAGA sign.
00:40:34A.I. is getting good.
00:40:35Cute.
00:40:36I wish I had a better answer than no.
00:40:41It didn't bother me.
00:40:42But a lot of the pain – earlier we talked about Arthur Brooks talking about –
00:40:50I think it's the Buddhism formula for suffering – pain times resistance.
00:40:53The pain that I felt when my dad was sick was largely rooted in my desire to change the outcome.
00:41:00It was arguing with doctors.
00:41:01It was trying to get him to force take 20 pills a day.
00:41:04As a 70-year-old man, he was pretty set in his ways.
00:41:08And I was so agonizingly in pain because it was like I was holding this hot pan and I'm going, "Ow, this is burning me."
00:41:19And God's like, "All you've got to do is put the pan down."
00:41:22Because there's still going to be a lot of upset.
00:41:25I'm aware of the difference between pain and suffering.
00:41:27Right.
00:41:28But there are things that you can do.
00:41:30And learning to blend a desire to take control of the situation and make an impact on it – agency, sovereignty,
00:41:40something that I know that you care about a lot and everybody else does as well – with surrender.
00:41:45Surrender can quite easily turn into passivity if you're not careful.
00:41:49If you don't know how to wield it, it can become nihilism, lackadaisicalness, things that you don't want.
00:41:59Does that make sense?
00:42:00You can see how surrender could become passiveness.
00:42:03Yeah, I think if you lack the discernment to know where the line is, that that's certainly true.
00:42:07So for me, putting the pan down and the analogy of losing so much of the pain,
00:42:11surrendering the pain to Christ in my scenario, saying whatever happens to my dad is God's will for my life.
00:42:17I did get supernatural peace from that.
00:42:19It doesn't mean I didn't care for him, show up for him, show up for myself.
00:42:22It doesn't mean I didn't do things.
00:42:24See, that's passivity would be the absence of doing anything.
00:42:26It doesn't mean I still didn't help him and me and my mom and my siblings.
00:42:30So when we talk about the internet example.
00:42:33Do you want to explain what happened? What your soft cancellation was?
00:42:36Sure. Yeah, I'd love to.
00:42:38It's not, you know, only a few people hear this, so it's not like this could kick the fire back up.
00:42:44So I was getting a lot of heat to speak on what happened in Minneapolis.
00:42:50And I, I'll be honest with you, I don't watch the news because I think it's a cancer and a cortisol dump.
00:42:55And that's not what my algorithm is. I don't have the news on the TV.
00:42:58I mainly just watch YouTube.
00:43:00And I kept getting hammered with these comments.
00:43:03Speak about ice, speak about Minneapolis, speak about what happened to Alex Peretti, God rest his soul.
00:43:08And I didn't know what any of that meant.
00:43:10I truly didn't. This was days after it happened.
00:43:13And so I even reached out to friends that were creators and said, are you guys getting hammered with these comments?
00:43:19And all of them said no. So I said, well, what did I do to curate an audience that would do this?
00:43:25And I started doing research and I went, wow, that's terrible.
00:43:29Someone was killed in Minneapolis by ice agents. That's awful. Murder under no circumstances is justified.
00:43:37And I kept getting hounded and I saw other creators just letting their audience sort of puppeteer them into saying something or saying what they thought their audience wanted to hear.
00:43:47And then I thought and thought and thought, and I prayed on it deeply. Should I make this video?
00:43:53And this is where faith becomes an easy barometer for decision-making.
00:43:58So you ask you ask me if these words hurt me. I made a video and the barometer for choice of to post or not was, do I feel that what I'm about to say honors God?
00:44:11It's a very simple question. Yes or no? Am I attacking people or am I choosing to love on people?
00:44:17Am I adding flames to the fire of hatred and division or am I just stating my opinion?
00:44:22So in the video, I said something to the effect of a lot of you were asking me to give my stance on what happened in Minneapolis with the ice agents.
00:44:30And my opinion is that you don't want my opinion. You want to watch the first five to eight seconds of my video and decide if I'm your enemy or not.
00:44:37And in that video, I say my opinion is very simple. Murder and killing others is a tragedy and it's not what God calls us to do.
00:44:47It's directly against what God calls us to do. Luke chapter six tells us to love those who hate us.
00:44:52That when someone slaps you, you offer them the other cheek. When someone takes your shirt, don't hesitate then to give them your robe.
00:44:59Because the only thing that blocks out hate is love. The only thing that changes a hateful heart is a loving one.
00:45:04That's what I said. And I said, you don't follow me because I'm a political commentator.
00:45:10And you pressuring all of these big creators who got here through fitness or mindset to now become political mouthpieces for your opinions isn't fair.
00:45:18I'm not politically aligned with any party. I think there's fools on both sides because that's how the world works.
00:45:23I think there's smart people on both sides. But I said, I'm not your puppet.
00:45:28I'm not going to do what you demand of me because you think it's what I should do. You want to hear my opinion come out of your mouth.
00:45:34I'm going to continue to create content that was the reason that allowed you to follow me. I'm going to help you in areas that I'm competent in.
00:45:41And the geopolitical climate of the world isn't one of them. I love you. Thank you. Holy shit.
00:45:47Did that, what I thought was a fairly, fairly logical and general opinion, start an absolute shitstorm?
00:45:53I think that video across platforms has 15,000 comments. That's pretty split on positive, negative. So that's what happened.
00:46:00That's the scenario. And that kicked up hundreds of creators stitching my video, putting my face on their back screen and attacking me.
00:46:09And somehow that, that evolved to not, I can't believe I'm talking about this on the show with you.
00:46:14It's so funny. Nazi, racist, MAGA, none of which were said in the video, by the way.
00:46:19So it was amazing to watch the conclusions that people drew about my character from that video.
00:46:24That's the scenario, which brings us to today, which is you asking, basically what you're asking me is did the things that people said about me hurt my feelings?
00:46:32No, not quite, not far from, but your point is words can only hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.
00:46:39Yes.
00:46:40I understand what you mean. And it's the only insults that hurt are the ones that we agree with.
00:46:47But I think the insults that hurt most are the ones that we don't believe, but we fear other people may believe.
00:46:57Because that allows a sense of injustice. And it doesn't really matter how you feel about it if other people believe it.
00:47:08That is fake news. That's having your status besmirched. That's having your good name tarnished.
00:47:14And I think that that drives people absolutely insane. This is the false accusation pandemic.
00:47:22And if somebody goes through that, they pay all of the costs of being somebody who did the thing without having done the thing.
00:47:35And if you believe that other people might believe it, or if it seems to you like other people are believing it, and you didn't do it, and you don't believe it yourself, that to me feels like a special circle of hell to descend into.
00:47:49And that's why optics management and looking after the way that your brand is interpreted online is really important.
00:47:59Because let's say that that had happened once, and then it happened again. People got a vendetta. They decided that they were going to pick apart and selectively edit.
00:48:06Because all of the edits that were done of you got rid of the bit where you said any death is a tragedy, and just kept the bit where it said, "I'm not your puppet."
00:48:13Made me look incredibly condescending and arrogant.
00:48:15Exactly. Imagine if five of those had happened in a row, because they'd gone back and they'd been able to edit your videos in that manner.
00:48:23Well, now there's a narrative. That Michael guy, he seems like he's behaving in a consistent pattern of behavior.
00:48:30Now, not only can you go back and say, "Well, no, look. Look, that's not what I said." I mean, even think about it, you're indignation at the fact that that's not what I said.
00:48:39You're pleading to people to say what they say I am is not who I am, and I have evidence.
00:48:47But imagine you didn't have the evidence, a false accusation of some kind.
00:48:50I heard Michael say this thing at some live event. I didn't record it, but I can promise you that it's true.
00:48:55I didn't, but you don't have the recording either, and there's no proof around that.
00:48:59Right.
00:49:00And then that narrative starts to take hold, and before you know it, I just, I agree that words hurt you to the degree that you believe they are true.
00:49:09But I also believe that words hurt you to the degree that you believe others will believe that they are true.
00:49:15And that is where your good name, to what extent you've got it left, gets sideswiped, and you didn't deserve it.
00:49:24Good enough to get here.
00:49:25Ah, you're among friends.
00:49:27Well, let's ping-pong this back and forth a little bit because, yeah, that can be true.
00:49:31If I were to have built an internet platform to the size that it is on a false identity, then I'd be really fucking nervous.
00:49:39But anyone, you know, someone said to me that that video you made is authentic. It feels like you.
00:49:45And that's the type of video that anyone who truly watches your stuff knows you in real life.
00:49:51They're going to, they're going to rock with you even harder because of that.
00:49:53And the people who were never really watching are just casual or just sort of get their news from TikTok.
00:49:58They're going to unfollow you. They're going to say nasty things about you.
00:50:01But those aren't the people I want in my audience anyway.
00:50:04Those aren't, I'm not here to appease people or make as many fans as I possibly can. I'm just here to make an impact on the people who are prepared to listen.
00:50:11So, yeah, that's true.
00:50:13There's a bunch of people out there who probably think a thing about me based on the eight second doctorate edited video.
00:50:19Sure.
00:50:20But frankly, those aren't the people that I'm, those aren't the people that are prepared to listen to my videos anyway.
00:50:25They could have been.
00:50:26Could have been.
00:50:27They could have been.
00:50:28I understand your point. I do think that as you're trying to grow a platform, your audience and the total available audience is always going to be massively different, unless you're MrBeast.
00:50:41And that means that if you are curtailed, neutered from being able to access more of these people because some, how many people got turned off of Rogan because of what happened?
00:50:54I mean, he managed to flip, reverse it with an Uno reverse card during COVID, but how many people could have, if he hadn't managed to ride the waves appropriately, how many of them would have never watched him?
00:51:09How many of them would have been turned off from tuning into his content?
00:51:14Or the same thing for, who else has been through a cancellation recently that could be, Chris Pratt as a good example.
00:51:22Like what did he do?
00:51:24Was Christian.
00:51:25People didn't like the fact that he's Christian.
00:51:27And they don't go watch his movie because they think that he believes a thing, which I don't think he believes any of the things that they're accusing him of.
00:51:38Well, I understand that those people, they don't deserve it, she didn't deserve you anyway, but people make snap judgements.
00:51:52They make quick assessments about what someone's character is.
00:51:58And I think that we want to play sport on as smooth of a pitch as possible, and if that's been muddied and sullied ahead of us, we want to be like, fuck, like this has made my life harder.
00:52:11I'm now having to climb up hill and a hill that I didn't make, you made it.
00:52:16I didn't do anything wrong.
00:52:17And I think there's indignation there.
00:52:18So that's my, that's my additional perspective.
00:52:22No, I hear, and I appreciate that perspective, I think that the closing remark for me that I, what I truly believe, again, I know, I know as a believer, as a Christian myself, my identity is in Christ and my belief in God.
00:52:33And if what I feel, what I said honors him in everything I do, not just that video, it's an easy barometer for decision-making for, for me.
00:52:41And I'm able to stand on that because I built a relationship with God.
00:52:44And I got nods that felt like fruits, byproducts as a result of that video.
00:52:49You know, I got a nod from some of the top people in the industry saying like, that was a very reasonable video and some people who I really respect and admire intellectually.
00:52:56And so if people who I really respect and admire saying it's reasonable and correct, then I probably have reason to believe it's correct.
00:53:02You know, Oliver Imberton said, if you're not pissing anybody off, you're probably not doing anything very important.
00:53:06And if being at the top means winning everybody over and a version of myself that has to constantly try to control the narrative, then I don't, I don't want that.
00:53:17I would rather have radical authenticity and authentic expression in a way that is intact with my character ethics and morals and impact as many people as I can that way.
00:53:27So I don't risk building a mountain of success on a false identity that I could worry the mask slips and it all comes crumbling down because none of those people ever really knew me in the first place.
00:53:37So that's how I view that video.
00:53:39And by every, by every metric in real life, things improved, um, the business that did well, the page did well.
00:53:47And I got a lot of love in exchange for all those hate comments and crazy things people said, I had a ton of people come to my defense and love.
00:53:54The advantage that you had was, I think we can probably name it smokes razor, uh, which everything needs a name.
00:54:01I got my own term.
00:54:02Yeah, I think you can call it smokes razor, which is when anybody asks you to speak on a topic, they're not asking you to speak on a topic, they're asking you to agree with their position.
00:54:12Speak on Iran.
00:54:14You don't want me to talk on Iran.
00:54:16You want me to say what you think about Iran, because if I speak on Iran, but I say the opposite thing to what you believe, you'll be unhappy.
00:54:24So say what you mean to say, say what I want you to say about Iran.
00:54:30That's more accurate. Now we, now you're not part of smokes razor, but I did, I agree.
00:54:35I think it's a great take.
00:54:36And, um, I can't unsee it now whenever anybody says, when are you going to comment on?
00:54:42When are you going to comment on this thing?
00:54:44It's like, you don't want me to comment on this thing.
00:54:46You want me to say what you think about this thing?
00:54:48You want me to echo your opinion?
00:54:49And I'm sure you get that just a few times a day.
00:54:52I got in a lot of trouble this year for doing that.
00:54:54Not for not doing that.
00:54:55I did it too much, which is interesting because the world has two things that are true at once.
00:55:00You're not Iranian and you're also not from Minneapolis, but you were supposed to comment on it.
00:55:05But there's also worlds where people are told like, what are men doing talking about women's bodies?
00:55:11I mean, if the men were in support of, uh, access to contraception, that's speaking about women's bodies.
00:55:22I'm sure that that would be fine.
00:55:25Like, you shouldn't be talking about this group because you're not a part of it.
00:55:30Well, gay rights are fucked because I'm not gay.
00:55:32And, uh, PETA is fucked as well because I'm not a chicken or a cow.
00:55:36Uh, the Ukraine war, I'm afraid I'm from neither of those locations, so I can't comment on that.
00:55:41Uh, I'm not a whale, so the Save the Oceans project, that's out the window.
00:55:45Uh, it's, if we are only allowed to talk on topics that we are a member of, that restricts a lot of things.
00:55:54And at the same time, people will also say, you have a platform, it's your duty to use it.
00:55:59The world is filled with people commenting on things that they know nothing about.
00:56:03I don't intend on trying to add to that.
00:56:05I already do.
00:56:06I encroach on that territory enough already.
00:56:09But I think the world would be better if people said, I don't know, I don't know much about that.
00:56:15So I'm not going to say anything about it.
00:56:17Like, we don't need more psychology professors turning into global terrorism experts.
00:56:25No.
00:56:26There are people who have specialities in these worlds.
00:56:28And if you can bro-science your way through things, you can talk about whatever you would like.
00:56:32Don't posit yourself as some sort of fucking authority.
00:56:35And certainly don't hamstring somebody into saying something.
00:56:38Yeah.
00:56:39Simply because you have an agenda.
00:56:40We're doing the world a favor by-
00:56:42Shutting the fuck up?
00:56:43By depriving them of two mid-20s, early 30s white dudes who think they have an opinion about something.
00:56:48Talking bullshit.
00:56:49Correct. Correct.
00:56:50Okay.
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00:58:07The number one fear that holds people back from having everything they've ever wanted in life is the fear of being perceived.
00:58:13Most of us are operating from a place of deep fear and scarcity.
00:58:17Where we need to be operating from is a place of deep trust and abundance.
00:58:22Your slogan for the year should be simple. What you fear is... Your slogan for the year should be simple.
00:58:29Where your fear is, there your task is.
00:58:32Lean directly into the things that make you most afraid if you want to build the life you've always wanted for yourself.
00:58:38That's the thing that holds people back.
00:58:40It's not the fear of failure.
00:58:42It's not even the fear of success because sometimes there's that.
00:58:44That comes into the equation of who will I have to become if this all works?
00:58:47What will I have to shift within me?
00:58:49At every level we hit, and we all have different thresholds for this, is the fear of being perceived.
00:58:55It's that little middle schooler inside of us that says, "What will they think of me?
00:58:59Will I be cast out of the cool kid crew? I'll be cast out of the tribe. What will the internet think?"
00:59:04Like I said, every person has a level for this.
00:59:07For some people, for most people that I get questions around, it's posting for the first time online.
00:59:12What if I look cringe? What if I look corny?
00:59:15For many people, it's the fear of public speaking. That's the number one fear ahead of death in many psychological surveys, which I find fascinating.
00:59:22Do you think that's true? I've read that too. Do you think that's true?
00:59:25I mean, it's in the data.
00:59:27I'm going to shoot you or I'm going to put you on stage?
00:59:30Yeah, you're going to go on stage, but your body's probably going to have a fit.
00:59:33This is also not fair. You do it for a living, so you're a bit of a biased resource on the answer.
00:59:38Some people might literally rather be killed. I don't know.
00:59:40I did have a friend once say to me, and I quote, that we couldn't experiment on him.
00:59:45He said, "No, I'd literally rather die than get on the stage in front of 2,000 people."
00:59:48And he didn't laugh, so I mean, his word was bond at that point.
00:59:52But at every level, we hit a wall of perception, a fear of perception.
00:59:57You know, at first it was for me posting online, and then I did it and it started to work, and then I overcame that, if you will.
01:00:04And then the audience got bigger, and then I got canceled for the first time. This happened last year, too. It was about a different thing.
01:00:11And then the fear of perception kind of crept in there.
01:00:13And then maybe it was my first public speaking event in front of a couple of hundred people, and the fear of perception came back in.
01:00:18Everybody is afraid of what they will be thought of and if the narrative that the people project onto them is aligned with what they believe about themselves to be true.
01:00:27And really their deepest, darkest fear.
01:00:29What if they confirm that I am not enough? What if they confirm that I am incompetent?
01:00:33All the things that we deal with because someone said those things to us, you're inadequate, you're not enough, you can't sit with us, you're not good enough, whatever, when we were a kid and we chose to believe that thing.
01:00:42The fear of perception gets to everybody, but there's a level to it for everyone.
01:00:46Your fear of perception is much higher than the person at home listening to this or sitting in their car on their drive to work right now.
01:00:53But at some point you hit a level where you go, "What will they think of me if I do this?"
01:00:57There's something within you that could hit you. Maybe it's a new style of content.
01:01:02Maybe it's throwing out that certain joke that you really know is pushing it in the new talk.
01:01:06Maybe it's being vulnerable to a degree that you've never been online before because that's not what the other guys are doing.
01:01:12So what will those guys think of me? Because you're batting in a league that's pretty high.
01:01:16What will those guys think of me if I say something totally different in my videos?
01:01:21It's there somewhere, but I think too many people view it as a fight.
01:01:26I can overcome the fear of perception or if I can conquer the fear of perception.
01:01:30The goal is not to overcome the fear of perception. It's to stay tapped in with inspiration because you're inspired until you hit the wall.
01:01:37The content was flowing for me, and I was super inspired in creating a bunch, and then the first wall was, boom, canceled because I said something polarizing.
01:01:43This was, like I said, a year-plus ago. I made a fat joke that was pretty off-color, but it was funny.
01:01:49That was where it first crept in. Big creators started saying crazy stuff about me that wasn't true, and then I got blocked from inspiration.
01:01:57I didn't know what to create because I was worried what they will think of me with what came next.
01:02:02So if the goal is not to overcome the fear of perception but to stay tapped into inspiration, then that shifts it from a fight to more of a dance.
01:02:10Everybody wants to maximize their potential, but I don't think that's the game.
01:02:13I think you don't want to maximize your potential. You want to know deeply the parts of you that don't want you to do that.
01:02:20Because when I decided to do seminars last year, there was a part of me that went, "What if nobody shows up?"
01:02:26Maybe a fear you had selling tickets across the world. Maybe not.
01:02:30But that fear crept in, and so then the job is not, "Oh, let me just bury that."
01:02:37The job is then, "Let me go explore that part of me that thinks nobody will show up so I can get to," as I said earlier, "Is this true?
01:02:44Why is that kid in me so afraid that nobody will come to my birthday party?"
01:02:49That's the adult equivalent of the speaking tour I did last year.
01:02:53And so through deeply understanding and knowing the parts of us that don't want us to maximize our potential, it is only in doing that that the fear of perception falls away.
01:03:01But there's nowhere to get. That's the game, dude. That's the game. There's nowhere to get.
01:03:07It's an exponential curve. It never touches zero. For every new level, there's a new devil. I love that quote.
01:03:13And when you went from your first episode on your couch in the UK to top 50 to top 25 to now eight, there's a fear that creeps in at every point something that you have to work through.
01:03:24But I think the secret is knowing deeply the part of you that says you don't deserve that. You can't have that.
01:03:30And instead of saying that's wrong, familiarize yourself with it.
01:03:34And then you can process it. And that's the difference between processing your emotion and being run by your emotion.
01:03:40Because the two decisions you make, if you listen to the narrative, I'm not enough versus observe it and understand it and move through it are wildly different decisions.
01:03:49So that's what the fear of perception is to me. It's it's the goal to stay tapped into the inspiration of what I believe the messages that God is placing on my heart are.
01:03:56And that's why my content is so diverse. One day I'll make a video about grief and what I learned from the death of my father.
01:04:03And the next day it's the fucking review of the Coke flavored Oreo or the Oreo flavored Coke Zero, my most viral video ever classically, which is hilarious.
01:04:12There's no it was just inspiration. It was following the inspiration. And in doing that, I've built a business out of it.
01:04:18But conventional rules would tell me, well, you're not sticking to the framework and the structures and the virality. It's all bullshit.
01:04:24So the goal is to stay stat, stay tapped in to inspiration by dancing with that fear of perception.
01:04:30There's an interesting line between scarcity and abundance. So George Mac is just the most abundance mindset person I've ever met.
01:04:37He really is.
01:04:38He has this is one of my fucking favorite George stories. I think he must be on his 30th pair of AirPods now.
01:04:48And he's kept them all in his Bluetooth.
01:04:51I hope he has Apple stock.
01:04:52Apple stock, probably. And you can see George's AirPods one, two, three, four, all the way up to 30.
01:05:00But because they're all linked to his find my, there's one pair that's in the United Nations building in downtown New York City.
01:05:07There's one left AirPod, I think that's in Kandahar or something.
01:05:13So he's lost them around the world. Some of them have been in the ocean.
01:05:17Others of them have been picked up by people where he's left them.
01:05:20And he left them in Deans the other night.
01:05:23Oh my God. When we were at dinner?
01:05:24Yes.
01:05:25Oh my gosh.
01:05:26Left them at Deans.
01:05:27And he tracks them every so often because he can do the find my. He just plays a sound out of the AirPods.
01:05:34So the fucking UN building will be beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
01:05:40And it's just him fucking with the dude in Kandahar. He's just like fucking with him because he knows that he's going to last AirPod.
01:05:46It's so good.
01:05:48But he's just got this abundance mindset, man.
01:05:50And I don't think anyone's done a full treatment on the difference between scarcity and abundance mindset. Not enough.
01:05:57It's a really obvious meme, I guess, if you've been in the personal development world for a while.
01:06:02I haven't seen it fully sort of break through.
01:06:04And the idea that glass half full versus half empty is a pretty sort of cliche way to think about it.
01:06:12Just assuming that it's okay, things will get better.
01:06:17I can take the risk. I can spend the money. I can treat myself. I can give myself time off.
01:06:24I can permit myself to attempt this thing that I don't know whether or not it's going to go well.
01:06:29Just assume that things are going to go well.
01:06:31And it's a particular type of advice for a particular type of person that maybe many, perhaps even most people, actually need the opposite advice.
01:06:41They need to be told to pump the brakes on their risk tolerance.
01:06:44There is a big subset of people, I'm going to guess, at the very least like me, perhaps like you, who need the opposite piece of advice.
01:06:52I needed to read Die with Zero by Bill Perkins because otherwise I would have just been scrimping and saving.
01:06:58There's a difference between misers and like spenders.
01:07:04And unfortunately, I fell into the camp of I'd never had money.
01:07:08So I thought, wait, now I've got it. I should hold on to it. What if it goes away?
01:07:13Well, that means that you never get to arrive at a place where you arrive.
01:07:17And yeah, Abundance Mindset is a wonderful salve to the uncertainty and the fear that I think a lot of us feel.
01:07:24Your episode shift, are we allowed to talk about the new style of content that's coming up?
01:07:27It'll be before this one, so yeah.
01:07:29Okay. The four-way episode that we had, we had a lovely four-way the other day. It was fantastic.
01:07:35It's important to have an Indian man in there for Die with Zero.
01:07:37Yeah, of course. It was great. Yes. He taught us a lot about breastfeeding. It was an interesting conversation. Go listen to that one.
01:07:42But that's a great example, right? You could have said, well, this isn't what my audience expects of me.
01:07:47This isn't what got me to top eight in the world. I can't do a four-way podcast of me and my boys bullshitting.
01:07:52I've been the interview guy. I've been the solo guy giving advice.
01:07:56But to me, I viewed what you did as an act of authenticity and trusting that diversifying is actually the exact thing you should do because you haven't done it up to this point.
01:08:06And the more frictionless, less buttoned up, you know, pop a button and let your hair down approach to this, like us just talking and joking and some of the crazy stuff that happened in that episode is exactly what people want to see from you because it makes you so relational.
01:08:22So I view creators through this lens as well. There's this guy who said he uses his content as a direct exposure therapy to people pleasing.
01:08:31He posts whatever he wants. He says, I don't, I wish I knew his name so I can give him credit. I post whatever I want. I'm not really overly mindful of what my audience wants.
01:08:38And I have a wide variety of topics that I speak on. He's an authority in some places. He's very human and goofy in others.
01:08:45And he talks about his story in other facets of content. So there's three pillars I think that exist. There's informational, aspirational, and relational.
01:08:53Informational is the authority figure content. I'm teaching you something. And then relational is the Open Tabs podcast if that's what you decide to call it.
01:09:02Did you decide on a name?
01:09:04We're still working between Rabbit Hole, Open Tabs, SideQuest, and Stuff I Love.
01:09:12I like Open Tabs, dude.
01:09:13Open Tabs is fun.
01:09:14Open Tabs is good. So informational is, we'll use my content, for example, when I'm teaching you about creatine or the form and fashion of public speaking tips, how to limit your filler words, something I'm competent on.
01:09:24And then there's relational. It's just me saying, this is the Oreo flavored Coke. Let me review it. And it's just total, it's total brain rot. It's just funny. I'm cracking jokes.
01:09:34And then there's aspirational. There's look at what I overcame and you can too. Leo Skeppy's a masterclass on this. I don't know if you know who that is, but he's a huge creator.
01:09:43He's got 10 million followers on TikTok, five on Instagram and a big podcast, but he is a therapist in his podcast.
01:09:50Basically, he does this video. It's like, come get ready with me and let you see my outfit before I go out in Vegas for the night.
01:09:56And it's like no value. People are saying like, this feels like a FaceTime from you. I love you.
01:10:00And then aspirational. He talks about overcoming an abusive relationship and the hardship that he dealt with to get to where he is now, which is wealthy, healthy and abundant.
01:10:08And when you combine those three pillars, you get an audience that is really bought into you because not only can you teach them something, but they can relate to you.
01:10:16And they can also feel that they can overcome hardship too. You're not just this person, this man or woman in the ivory tower sitting in your beautiful podcast studio.
01:10:25No, you've been through shit because you're human. And that's what I think is that makes an incredible creator and also allows us to continuously break through the levels of the fear of perception.
01:10:35And that's honestly how I view content. My videos are me expressing myself in the purest fashion that I think is almost childlike to me.
01:10:43Also makes for an interesting person.
01:10:45Yeah.
01:10:46An interesting life. We don't want the thing. We want the feeling that the thing gives us.
01:10:51Why?
01:10:54Yeah, we're speed running our recancellation right now with all the references we're pulling. What did Andrew Tate say?
01:11:00You don't want the Ferrari. You want everyone to know you have the Ferrari and that they can't have the Ferrari.
01:11:04Having things isn't fun, getting things is fun.
01:11:08Having things isn't fun, getting things is fun, but we don't want the thing. We want the feeling that it gives us.
01:11:12Because I'll give you my opinion on this. It's a faith-based one yet again. We'll come back to this a lot.
01:11:19My pastor Phillip Mitchell that I referenced earlier says that everybody has a God-shaped hole in their heart and they try to fill it with the things of the world.
01:11:26And this is why biblically, idolatry is a sin. Sin is actually just God's way of protecting us from hurting ourselves because we're stupid.
01:11:33We're people. We're dumb. And we make mistakes.
01:11:37To idolize something is to put it on a pedestal. And to put it on a pedestal implies that it can never let you down.
01:11:42But things of the world are imperfect. They'll always let us down.
01:11:45And so we don't want the thing. We want the feeling the thing gives us because the nice watch, the nice car, the status, the success, the money, whatever.
01:11:54Any form of material success, will it make us feel significant, seen, heard, understood, important in our place in the world?
01:12:02And it never does. Like you said, it's the hedonic treadmill. You step into the thing. It's really cool. You get the dopamine hit.
01:12:08And then the Ferrari just becomes, "We'll take my car."
01:12:11Well, don't forget, there's a much more squirrelly, pernicious version of this, which is developing yourself with your traits and your skills and maybe your knowledge as well.
01:12:22Naval has this cool idea where he talks about how he wasn't that concerned about being smart, but he really wanted to appear smart.
01:12:31So what he did is he just wrote, memorized tons of stuff.
01:12:35And that gave him the illusion of being smart to other people.
01:12:40But it didn't mean he actually understood what he was doing.
01:12:42And that difference of when I'm able to impress people around a dinner table, when everybody else shuts up and they think I'm the most interesting person in the room then.
01:12:53Or a black belt in some martial art.
01:12:55When I get there, then. And the difference is there's an obvious cultural meme around how cringey it is to assume that a Ferrari is going to fix your self-worth problem.
01:13:05But there's far less about, well, you know, once I've done a thousand hours of meditation.
01:13:11Once I've got my black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
01:13:14Once I've finally read all of the classics and can quote them verbatim around the dinner table.
01:13:19Once I've done even more pernicious than this, go deeper. Once I've done every level of the Hoffman process or internal family systems.
01:13:27Or I know every Joe Hudson Art of Accomplishment podcast off by heart.
01:13:30And I've done the work and I've transcended and included my Wilburian ego and everything has now become a perfect manifestation.
01:13:37I've alchemized myself.
01:13:39That is just a slightly clever twist on the same arrival fallacy.
01:13:45I will be when. I will be something when. I something else.
01:13:51It's the same dynamic, it's just done in a slightly less shallow, obviously vapid way.
01:14:01Yeah, that's it, man. That's what I was talking about earlier. There's nowhere to get.
01:14:06There's nowhere to get. It doesn't mean you don't go there.
01:14:09Doesn't mean you don't achieve the thing and build the accolades.
01:14:12That doesn't mean it's not fun and it doesn't feel good, but there's nowhere to get. There are just levels to climb through.
01:14:16And zero is death. Zero is when your life is over.
01:14:20And that's made that, in my opinion, takes all the weight off of it and makes it more fun, easier to obtain.
01:14:26And that when I get to the end of my life, I will have hopefully, God willing, done a lot of cool shit.
01:14:31But the ultimate mission for me is, I hope, you know, my dad said this to me like four weeks before he died.
01:14:47I thought it was very interesting that a guy who was living what I thought was the fullest life ever,
01:14:53the stories he told me, the things he got to do, the things him and his friends did.
01:14:59The last four to six weeks, he was alive when he was just stuck on the couch and we would just sit and talk.
01:15:04And one thing I'm really thankful for that I did that I hope anyone listening to this with parents who are still here do is I recorded a series of podcasts with my dad when he got sick.
01:15:12And I asked him all the hard questions and it was fucking brutal and like had to turn the camera off, had to walk away.
01:15:20It's a unique pain to look at my dad and say, what do you want to say to me on my wedding day? Can you say it right there?
01:15:28That's hard, but I'm grateful that I did it because now I have it.
01:15:33And it goes back to, I don't really think a lot of what the people on the Internet think about me because I had to do that.
01:15:40My threshold for pain is so much higher, for stress is so much higher. I don't want to control the narrative.
01:15:45I tried that and it created so much more pain within me. But back to the original point.
01:15:50It was interesting to hear a man who I thought was 10 feet tall and bulletproof and had done everything in the world and had shown up for me every time I needed it and was a great husband, a great dad, the best I'd ever seen.
01:16:03When he got to the end of his life, all he could tell me about was the things he wishes he did more of. And it wasn't anything complex.
01:16:10It wasn't that he wished he sold more tracks because he was a running track salesman. It wasn't that he wishes he did more skydive jumps or that he spent more time on the golf course.
01:16:20He said two things. He said, well, he said three things. He said, number one, I should have spent more time at home with your mom and less time on the golf course with my buddies.
01:16:30And number two, I should have been here for you guys more when you were growing up. I didn't perceive it that way.
01:16:35To me, my dad was always there when I needed him. Like I was lucky to have a dad who really loved me and showed up for me and my brother and sister.
01:16:43And the last thing he said was all I hope to hear when I get wherever I'm going is well done, my good and faithful servant.
01:16:52You fought the good fight. You've run your race. Here's your crown. It's time to rest. That's scriptural.
01:16:59And to me, these achievements are fun. They're so fun. Words cannot be put into the feeling I have of gratitude to be sitting across the table from you right now, man.
01:17:11It's so cool. I told my boy today, he called me. He was like, how are you feeling? I was like, dude, we do downloads on Modern Wisdom.
01:17:17We were getting our walks together in college. This is so cool. It's incredible.
01:17:22But where I stand with my belief is not, it's that God's not going to say, well done, my good and faithful podcast host, my good and faithful content creator, business owner.
01:17:33It's not going to say husband or father or brother. He's going to say servant.
01:17:38And if what I do glorifies God and if I feel that way and I receive confirmation or what I think is confirmation, that's what I think I'm here to do.
01:17:47And that's what I think we're all here to do. And I think if more people open their heart to the possibility of that being true, they would still have fun pursuing the thing and getting the thing and having the thing.
01:17:57But they'd understand that that's really all we're here for. And that the only zero, the only arrival is the end of it.
01:18:03And that it's all just fun. It's fun and service. That's it.
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01:19:12The path to being the best version of yourself should be lonely, and the loneliness you feel is nothing to be sad about. It is a benchmark and an indicator that you're probably on the right path. Everything in life has a true opportunity cost to it. Cutting people off, cutting things off, cutting habits off is uncomfortable. But every time I've done it, something incredible has filled that gap.
01:19:38This is Total Inception listening to you tell me what I said because I learned that from you, which is kind of hilarious.
01:19:45Correct. It's the human centipede, but we've both got our ass and mouth attached to each other.
01:19:50We're Earl Burris-ing each other or whatever the fuck it's called.
01:19:52That's correct.
01:19:53Yeah. My mouth to Chris's ass. Clip that.
01:19:55Very good.
01:19:58Yeah. I mean, you and Hormozi talked about the lonely chapter, and I remember going through that being 22 years old and wondering. I really had one friend, my best friend, still the guy I just told you I was on the phone with earlier.
01:20:12Will, I love you if you're listening to this.
01:20:15It was just he and I. I would have these feelings of why do I care this much about resistance training, progressive overload? Why do I want to learn about hormesis and heat exposure and listen to Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk for three hours about those things with Joe Rogan?
01:20:30Why do I care what Chris Williamson and Andrew Huberman are going to talk about for two hours? And when I go talk about it to my friends, they go, "Sick, dude."
01:20:38It's like you can't expect everyone to have the same interest as you. I get that. You want to slide me one of those?
01:20:43Yeah, get in there.
01:20:44I appreciate it.
01:20:45A little nicotine bump. Go on.
01:20:46What is this? Is this the mint one?
01:20:47This is the watermelon peppermint, I think.
01:20:50Watermelon peppermint.
01:20:51Yeah, we're just finding different ways to stimulate ourselves.
01:20:53Yeah.
01:20:54I have an oral fixation, which is great to say after we just talked about AstaMouth.
01:20:57Yeah. Chris loves finding ways to get orally stimulated for sure.
01:21:01Yeah, that's correct.
01:21:04I remember the nicotine toothpicks about to go straight to my frontal lobe and allow me to cohesively pull this thought together, but I remember being very confused about why nobody gave a shit about the things I gave a shit about.
01:21:17And I just had this one friend, it was me and Will, and he was up in New York at college and I was down in Georgia.
01:21:22And so we'd do these things we called Neat Chats, where we'd go out and go for a walk, non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
01:21:28Very good.
01:21:29Walking Neat Chats, he just texts me like Neat and we go, and we do downloads on the podcast we were listening to, but we were each other's only outlet and that can feel lonely.
01:21:37And I remember a girl I was dating at the time saying, I talked to her about the first time I heard about the anterior mid-singulate cortex.
01:21:46And I went, this is groundbreaking fucking information.
01:21:49I've got to tell the world, like the British are coming, the British are coming.
01:21:52The AMCC is growing, the AMCC is growing.
01:21:54Fuck you, it's boring.
01:21:55Exactly. And it was a very loving, you should like make content or something.
01:22:01You should talk about this.
01:22:02Yeah.
01:22:03But not to me.
01:22:04But not to me. That's exactly right.
01:22:05It would be really great if you didn't talk to me about it.
01:22:08That's exactly right.
01:22:09And at the time it felt like rejection, but in hindsight, I'm like, yeah, I can't expect you to care about the things I care about.
01:22:14So for me, this period of losing weight when I was over, I was overweight and I lost 60 pounds when I was 21 and kept the weight off, became passionate about understanding that it's actually not that hard.
01:22:26My life got better when I did that.
01:22:28People treated me better.
01:22:29My energy was better.
01:22:30My clothes fit.
01:22:31I felt better about myself.
01:22:32Look good, feel good, play good.
01:22:33Why does everybody think this is so hard?
01:22:35And then it got deeper.
01:22:36My grandma died of Alzheimer's.
01:22:37So I became interested in cognitive decline as it pertains to exercise and lifestyle.
01:22:42And this passion just kept growing within me where all I was consuming was podcasts and information on this at any chance I could, but I wasn't really doing anything with it other than my own benefit.
01:22:53And I realized now so clearly looking back that I think that was God preparing me for this.
01:22:59I use everything I learned over that seven year period in my job every day.
01:23:04And people ask me, how do you know all this? I just spent six years alone, walking by yourself, listening to podcasts for a thousand hours.
01:23:12That's what it takes.
01:23:13And that was my lonely chapter.
01:23:14And it felt like it was for nothing.
01:23:16And looking back, I laugh at the idea of that because it's part of why I'm in this room with you was my obsession with those things with no seeming or visible horizon of payoff in the future.
01:23:28You know, what, what does Hormozi say? Being able to do the work without the promise or expectation of it paying off at any given point.
01:23:34I did that and eventually it paid off, but that's where my love came from.
01:23:40And that's where the understanding I tell people, if, if you feel like you've outgrown in your words, you've outgrown your old group and you haven't found your new one yet, that is a barometer that you're actually on exactly the path that you're supposed to be.
01:23:51At least that's my take.
01:23:52And it's, it's what I've seen in people who other consider themselves high performers as well.
01:23:57And I think you feel similarly given that clip that of course.
01:24:00Of course. Yeah.
01:24:01I mean, it's, it was the central thrust of the last live show that I did.
01:24:06It was the thing that people spoke about the most.
01:24:08It's kind of taken on a life of its own, which is really cool.
01:24:11And I think what's coolest about it is that it puts a name to something that a lot of people feel and that nobody had actually come up with a term for previously.
01:24:21And yeah, it's a, it's not romantic. There's no point in that process that makes you feel like there's glory happening.
01:24:32Your entire journey of personal development is just steeped in uncertainty and self-doubt.
01:24:40It's not cool. It's not sexy.
01:24:42You think the Rocky cut scene was three and a half minutes in the movies.
01:24:45It's been four years for me.
01:24:47What the fuck is going on?
01:24:48That's it.
01:24:49There's no promise of any success on the other side of it.
01:24:51I'm permanently questioning if you're making any progress.
01:24:54Am I doing this right?
01:24:55And it isn't like every month, every training montage that you've seen where the hero goes from realizing he needs to change to the change with ups and downs in the journey and the progress, but no loss of conviction.
01:25:13I lost conviction all the fucking time.
01:25:15Like am I, what should I be doing? Should I be, maybe I need to do more yoga.
01:25:19I'm actually CrossFit.
01:25:20I should be doing CrossFit.
01:25:21And if I did more, no, fuck it.
01:25:23I need to meditate more.
01:25:24I meditate more.
01:25:25I should learn.
01:25:26What should I learn?
01:25:27Should I learn the classic?
01:25:28Maybe I should read philosophy.
01:25:29No, I should do evolutionary science.
01:25:30Just constantly trying to work out what I'm self-generating and self-educating.
01:25:36And yeah, when I look back, I've got this couch in Newcastle.
01:25:41The old studio, the one that I had to paint the ceiling off because it had candles set because I had a candle obsession for a while.
01:25:48And everybody said that it was mold.
01:25:50It wasn't mold.
01:25:51It wasn't my mom's basement.
01:25:52It was my bedroom in my house that I bought and I loved, but it didn't look that great.
01:25:58So I did have to get it painted.
01:26:00The internet bullied me into getting painters around.
01:26:01Two gay painters.
01:26:02It was brilliant.
01:26:03And they came around, did this thing, and then it was a Douglas Murray episode actually that put the final, because he said, "What's that on the ceiling?"
01:26:12And I was like, "Right, okay, I'm fucking doing it."
01:26:16Right next to that set, remembering this is the first studio I've ever owned that wasn't in my house.
01:26:22The last decade, every single house that I've stayed in, every Airbnb I've stayed in, every hotel I've stayed in for more than three weeks has had some form of studio in it.
01:26:30And this is the first one that isn't in my abode.
01:26:33Right next to that studio setup, which had my bed in the background, and then there would be a bear on the bed, was a couch.
01:26:43It's a leather couch that came with the house and I kind of liked it.
01:26:45It was comfy.
01:26:46And I spent hundreds, probably over a thousand hours.
01:26:51In fact, it must be over a thousand hours.
01:26:52Just sat on one half of this couch, and I had this little wooden table next to me, and I'd have a little coaster with my salt and lemon in water.
01:27:04Like just table salt, because before Element was available in the UK, maybe I didn't even know it existed.
01:27:09Maybe it didn't even exist.
01:27:11And I'd have my Kindle, and I'd have this little blanket, and I'd put this blanket over my knees.
01:27:16And I'd have a cushion, and I'd put my Kindle on the cushion, and I'd sit down and I'd try and read.
01:27:22I remember when I first started trying to read, after a decade of being a club promoter, and that's just...
01:27:28I think I sent and received, the last time I checked my stats, I sent and received eight million messages on WhatsApp.
01:27:35With thumbs.
01:27:36So I'm just used to bings and bongs and notifications and colours, and I sit down and it's just this black and white screen with words on it.
01:27:43And my body used to move.
01:27:45My body used to sort of twitch a little bit.
01:27:49Like it was trying to search for extra dopamine inside of you.
01:27:51I literally think it was learning what lower stimulus felt like.
01:27:56And then I'd maybe try and meditate or do whatever.
01:28:00That whole process now, in retrospect, is just one of the coolest periods of my life.
01:28:07And it was me in this ex-garage extension of a house in Bumfuck Village near Newcastle upon Tyne, around the corner from a primary school.
01:28:20And I just spent thousands of hours sat there, just doing shit, experimenting with myself, I guess, and learning about me.
01:28:29Experimenting with yourself, you say?
01:28:30I was, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:28:31Mostly trying to fit my own mouth around my own ass so that I don't need you anymore.
01:28:35I just wanted to feed my own ideas back into myself.
01:28:38That's an echo shame, right there.
01:28:39True Ouroboros.
01:28:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:28:43And that's fucking awesome.
01:28:44And lots of people, even the most powerful and successful ones.
01:28:47Homosie talks about sleeping on the gym floor.
01:28:49There's cars driving over the top of the gym where he slept.
01:28:56And he would hear the kids that were his age partying above him and he was still downstairs.
01:29:00And I would hear families coming and going from the school and I'd still be sat there and I'd have heard them drop the kids off in the morning and I'd still be there.
01:29:09And they'd have left later that day and then maybe I'd be working on my laptop doing whatever now.
01:29:13It's cool.
01:29:14And I think that, yeah, the path to being the best version of yourself should be lonely.
01:29:19Or at the very least, being lonely is not an indication that you are not on the path to becoming the best version of yourself.
01:29:28That people sort of rage against the fact that there is lots of self-doubt and there isn't that much glory and it does seem like it's tarnishing the experience and I don't know if it's going to work and I'm wracked with this lack of belief.
01:29:42Yeah, that is par for the course.
01:29:45Because if you're going to try and break out of the mold of wherever you are, you need to do something that's unbelievably weird and different and strange.
01:29:53And that means that there's going to be very few people, by design, like you, very few people are going to be self-selecting to go and do this thing, which means that you have to go off on your own.
01:30:02And maybe you're super fortunate and you've got a brother or a friend or whatever that is on the journey with you.
01:30:07But for the most part, people are born in towns.
01:30:12If you're into this sort of stuff, you're the one person within a five-year age bracket where you live that you know that's into this and there's no one else.
01:30:23So yeah, it's an indication that you're on the right path. I think you're correct.
01:30:26Did you think this would all happen when you started on that couch in Newcastle?
01:30:32No, I mean, look, grand plans, sort of big, impressive goals for life is never something I've been particularly good at.
01:30:45Really?
01:30:47But this wasn't a plan, right? This was emergent.
01:30:50This was me failing forward, falling forward.
01:30:54Someone once described adulthood as like being pushed down a set of stairs at age 18 and trying to catch your feet until you die.
01:31:00And it does feel a little bit like that. I'm like performing adulthood, performing competence, whatever it is.
01:31:06But no, it absolutely wasn't the plan. I didn't have any plan at all.
01:31:11But I really enjoyed the process of following my passions, which I'd suppressed for a long time.
01:31:19So I did two degrees at university. I did a bachelor's in business management and then a master's in international marketing.
01:31:25And I did a year in industry. So I was at university for five years, left at 23.
01:31:29And I remember when I completed my master's dissertation, I finished it. I started and finished it in 36 hours.
01:31:37I'd been given the entire summer to write it and technically the entire year to write it.
01:31:41And I've started and finished it in 36 hours.
01:31:44And I did it on a case of Red Bull and three bags of very, very questionable cocaine from my local dealer.
01:31:51I was so wired and just screwy by the end of it.
01:31:55My housemate had had a party downstairs and I kept going downstairs to do a line to then come back upstairs.
01:32:00I was like watching the party slowly degenerate as I was finishing my dissertation.
01:32:06I was completely sober. I mean, apart from the cocaine.
01:32:08Completely sober is a crazy thing to say when you were railing.
01:32:11Completely cocaine. Yeah, but like, you know, I'm Coke sober.
01:32:15Yeah, sure.
01:32:17And I didn't trust myself to hand my dissertation in. I didn't trust myself to drive it in.
01:32:23So I walked it into town.
01:32:25I walked to town from my house because I wouldn't drive, obviously, because I was completely...
01:32:29I was like, you did just dedicate a year of your life and kind of the crowning achievement of your academic career to this thing.
01:32:36So you were prepared to roll the dice with this.
01:32:38And it came back and I got one of the highest marks of my entire module was around that dissertation.
01:32:46So cocaine is a hell of a drug.
01:32:47My point being, when I decided I'm going to try and do something that's just for me,
01:32:57I looked back at my degrees and realized I should have done philosophy or psychology.
01:33:01I wasn't fired up about business.
01:33:02I didn't want to do business, but I couldn't work out what job a philosopher would get.
01:33:10I didn't know.
01:33:11I didn't know what job a psychologist would get.
01:33:13Psychology was interesting to me.
01:33:15So I suppressed what I was interested in and did it in service of a thing that I thought would be functional.
01:33:20And then 15 years later, I can't remember anything that I learned.
01:33:24So it was completely pointless.
01:33:26And I got the opportunity to run it back and basically create my own university course.
01:33:30And the one thing that I knew that I did want, the one goal that I did have was to be respected by people that I respected.
01:33:37I really wanted to be seen as a peer by people who I admired.
01:33:41And I think that's one of the coolest things to have someone who you go, "Dude, I really fucking love your work.
01:33:47I really like this way that you approach the world."
01:33:51And for them to say, "Oh yeah, I like this about you too."
01:33:56That is a fuel, I think, that will drive people.
01:33:59It's not as transactional as just status growth.
01:34:03It's wow, this person is discerning and they're good at what they do.
01:34:06And they like what I do too.
01:34:08Amazing, what a great stamp, commendation that I've received.
01:34:15And that was something that I really wanted.
01:34:17And yeah, I had my fucking Mount Rushmore of guests.
01:34:21And that was largely around Mount Rushmore of people that I wanted to respect what I did.
01:34:27And that was what drove me for a good while.
01:34:30So do you feel like you've done that now?
01:34:32Still need to get Rogan on.
01:34:33He's fucking skittish and he keeps on going elk hunting, so he's busy.
01:34:36But yeah, I think so.
01:34:40All of the people that I started off wanting to turn from an idol into a rival and a peer, I managed to do.
01:34:48And that was awesome.
01:34:50And now it's a case of, okay, what does it look like to start to forge something new?
01:34:55Right, what's next?
01:34:57I don't know, more of this.
01:34:59I'm just enjoying fucking having fun on the show, speaking to people like you
01:35:02and seeing what a new generation of creators that I can collaborate with is like.
01:35:08Guys like you, Joe Foley, Alex O'Connor, Dylan O'Sullivan, Chris Griffin, Elliot Buick.
01:35:15There's a lot of young talent, younger talent that's an entire generation into internet speak,
01:35:21but realistically only between 10 and 15 years in real life.
01:35:24And that's cool.
01:35:25I think that's really fun.
01:35:26Okay, well, what other angles have we got that we can play around with here?
01:35:31I guess it's coming up.
01:35:34Then you get to be a platform for other people, which is sick.
01:35:37Because for almost all of your career in something like this,
01:35:40you're basically riding off the coattails of people who are more successful than you.
01:35:43And suckling at the teat of someone who's already suckling today.
01:35:50Accumulated a lot of-
01:35:52A lot of that on his mind.
01:35:53What can I say?
01:35:57Then eventually you get to the stage where you can pay it forward and you go, "Wow, I
01:36:01really fucking like this person.
01:36:02I'm going to give him a crack."
01:36:04Angelo Summers, fucking unreal.
01:36:06One of the best video essayists.
01:36:09So good and criminally undersubscribed.
01:36:11I just loved his essays.
01:36:13I'm like, "I want to talk to him.
01:36:14Come to Austin.
01:36:15I want to talk to you."
01:36:16It's sick.
01:36:17And I'm not quite yet a kingmaker, but it's good.
01:36:21We're getting there.
01:36:22And that's really, really fun.
01:36:23Is that-
01:36:24I was going to ask you a question.
01:36:25I feel like you kind of answered it.
01:36:29What would you do for free right now?
01:36:31What would make you really happy?
01:36:33Is it to have that next generation around and on?
01:36:38I would sit down and have these conversations for free.
01:36:40I did this before anybody listened.
01:36:42I did this long before anybody listened.
01:36:43It took, I think, two years to hit 10K subs.
01:36:47So that's 150 episodes.
01:36:51And then it took three years to hit 100K.
01:36:56So we're now at 300 episodes.
01:37:00And then when I moved to America, you were at 250K subs.
01:37:05And that was 450 episodes.
01:37:08We've only done a thousand.
01:37:10Nearly 50% of the show was done before I moved to America and under 250K subs.
01:37:18And then I came out here and all of this stuff happened and it was really amazing.
01:37:22But I'd already done it when nobody was watching for a long time.
01:37:26We were stuck at, I think it was like 7K for nearly a year.
01:37:30And I didn't care.
01:37:32I just loved what I was doing and it's still the same.
01:37:34And so there's nothing else that I want to do at 5.20 PM central time than be here and chat to you.
01:37:42There's nothing else that I want to do.
01:37:43I am enjoying the stage stuff.
01:37:45That's fun.
01:37:46Going and doing the live stuff's cool.
01:37:47But there's nothing else.
01:37:49All right, I've got another one.
01:37:50I want to harass you about this one.
01:37:52If you want exceptional things, you have to be willing to work toward them for exceptional periods of time.
01:37:57I'm willing to bet 90% of people who didn't get where they wanted did so simply because they stopped too early.
01:38:07I'm going to do the thing.
01:38:08The aphorism thing.
01:38:09Do it.
01:38:1090% of success can be boiled down to doing the obvious thing for an extraordinary period of time.
01:38:15Without convincing yourself you're smarter than you are, is the end of that quote from Mr. Hormozi himself.
01:38:21What was the obvious thing with growing the podcast?
01:38:25What are the obvious things that you did that got it to where it is today?
01:38:29Not stopping.
01:38:30That's it.
01:38:32With social media growth, people ask me all the time, what's the number one thing you'd recommend?
01:38:36Post every day for six months.
01:38:39I would guarantee you 90% of people wash out after 90 days of posting.
01:38:45And so extraordinary success comes from just doing the boring stuff but you can't package that.
01:38:49You can't make an incredible viral clip out of it or a multi-million dollar business if you just tell people if you want to get jacked you should probably just not stop working out and not stop eating well and not stop walking.
01:39:00And if you want to have a successful podcast you should probably just not stop uploading an episode a week or two episodes a week.
01:39:06It's the same with social media.
01:39:07I haven't missed an upload in two and a half years on social media.
01:39:11Yeah, the byproduct is the growth but it's the obvious thing and it's the thing it's not easy to do because things get in the way.
01:39:17You have all these ideas or creative blocks or reasons you can't post.
01:39:21But it's simple to understand.
01:39:24Is if you want to be where you want to be you have to do the boring shit for a long time.
01:39:29And that's what I've noticed from everybody at the top.
01:39:31There was never this game-changing revolutionary formula for how they got there.
01:39:36They just kept fucking showing up and if they had 10% to give that day if I had 10% to give that day and I gave it I gave a hundred percent.
01:39:43Because I truly understand that that is so much better than nothing.
01:39:48And I do think so many people on social media stop right before they pop so many people in the gym stop right before they hit that flow state with their workouts that gets them the best shape of their life where they find that way of eating that feels comfortable and they that they can sustain forever.
01:40:02Most people stop right before they strike gold and I know if I just keep showing up even if it all falls away like you just said I'd still do this for free.
01:40:13If all the sponsors and the platform got stripped you'd still come into this room and record which means you climb again.
01:40:22But not many people have the testicular fortitude to be able to do that.
01:40:28I think also one of the things is people mistake doing something they feel they should be doing instead of doing something that they're obsessed with.
01:40:36So I've got the difference between discipline, motivation and obsession.
01:40:40So discipline is I will make myself do the thing.
01:40:43Motivation is I want to do the thing.
01:40:45And obsession is I can't not do the thing.
01:40:48Sort of climbed inside of you and it's staring out through your eyes.
01:40:51And what we look at with a lot of people now it appears like discipline but what it is is just the remnant of what was previously an obsession.
01:41:01Going to the gym for me was something that I did because I was obsessed with it.
01:41:04I wouldn't go on nights out at university because I wanted to stay in and read bodybuilding.com forums to see if this blueberry extract would get me more jacked or whatever the fuck.
01:41:13And now my training pattern is just like the hard rock that's cooled after that lava erupted for a while.
01:41:23And it looks like discipline from the outside but it's actually just the remnant of this thing that kind of wore me for a while.
01:41:29And I don't know whether you have heard me talk about this before but 90% of podcasts don't make it past episode 3.
01:41:37And of the 10% that do, 90% of them don't make it past episode 20.
01:41:42So by making 21 podcasts you're in the top percentile of all podcasters ever.
01:41:47Let's go.
01:41:48We did it.
01:41:49And it just sort of goes to show how rare consistency is.
01:41:54And yeah, I want to be in the top percentile of all podcasters ever.
01:41:58Okay, just do 21.
01:41:59They can be shit.
01:42:01Do 21 and you have already won.
01:42:03And yeah, consistency is not sexy and it doesn't really fit very well on an Instagram reel because it's not a quick fix.
01:42:15So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that people don't want to do it.
01:42:20I think another element, a lot of people didn't get to where they are because of a lack of support.
01:42:28So I think the lonely chapter thing, I was for a very long time and still maybe deep down are uncertain.
01:42:36Am I doing this right?
01:42:37Is it okay for me to want to do this thing?
01:42:40And I basically have a lifestyle wide praise kink.
01:42:43And if you just say to me the thing that encouraged me, that is a really good fuel source for me.
01:42:49But that means that in the UK, somewhere which is quite disparaging if anybody wants to do anything different, it's the opposite.
01:42:56And I know that the lonely chapter thing particularly resonated with people in the UK because it's one big fuck off lonely chapter.
01:43:03And that's also one of the reasons I think that we've got such millionaire exit, like the whatever it's called brain drain, this millionaire flight that's happening from the UK.
01:43:11Because if you're the sort of person that wants to make a lot of yourself, it's not a wonderful culture to be in.
01:43:16And I really would love to change that.
01:43:18Yeah, the praise kink is a super funny way to put that.
01:43:20The lifestyle wide praise kink.
01:43:22Good boy, Chris.
01:43:23Good boy.
01:43:24Don't you do it.
01:43:25I don't need it from you.
01:43:26But I love what you just said there.
01:43:28The 21 episodes about putting you in the top 1%, they are probably going to be shit.
01:43:33That's the other thing.
01:43:34My love.
01:43:35Mr. B says create 100 videos and understand they're all going to suck.
01:43:38And then maybe you can start to get kind of good at it.
01:43:40That's the best creator on the planet by every observable metric.
01:43:44I look back at my old content, it's horrific.
01:43:46I cringe, it's awful.
01:43:47But it has to be shitty before it can get good.
01:43:50Episode one through five are probably nowhere near, I listened to episode one actually.
01:43:55What do you think?
01:43:56I mean, compared to this, you suck.
01:43:59Listenable, but comparatively shitty.
01:44:02And it's the same thing with my pod and my first videos.
01:44:05It's suspending the ego long enough for the skill sets to catch up.
01:44:09Yeah, that's lovely.
01:44:10That's what it really is.
01:44:11Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:44:13Yeah, and because your inspirations are not the people that are only one step ahead of you,
01:44:18they're the people that are 15 steps ahead of you or 100 steps ahead of you.
01:44:21So you compare that to where you are.
01:44:23But nobody does that.
01:44:24Nobody starts playing football on a weekend and says, well, Cristiano Ronaldo is so much better than me.
01:44:29It's fucking pointless, me even trying.
01:44:31Well, I suppose so.
01:44:33But if there was ever a, well, I was talking to Louis Theroux this morning,
01:44:37and he said about the two jobs that British young boys want.
01:44:44Number one is still, I actually think this is a good sign.
01:44:47Number one is still to be a Premier League footballer.
01:44:50I think that's a good sign.
01:44:51But number two is be a YouTuber.
01:44:53And there's this weird world where what people need, what young boys need is more resilience,
01:45:00if they're going to do that.
01:45:02And it seems like more patience as well.
01:45:08It's a particularly unpatient culture for people who want to be YouTubers an awful lot.
01:45:14Yeah, I love that phrase, why do grown men love pro athletes so much?
01:45:19Because it's a kid that never gave up on their dreams.
01:45:22And they want to be like that.
01:45:24And so it's cool to hear that there are kids that are still wanting that.
01:45:26And I think that that childlike wonder gets taken from us at some point along the way in many people.
01:45:32And I still see that in what you do.
01:45:34The Open Tabs episodes, the way you fuck around talking about how you were railing lines of coke.
01:45:38It's a playful, not that kids should do coke, not what I'm saying.
01:45:42It's a great nootropic though.
01:45:43It's laser focused.
01:45:45But it's at some point something happens to us and we just forget to play and have fun.
01:45:51And that's why content is so easy for me to create.
01:45:55Proverbs 13, 12 says hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a dream fulfilled is a tree of life.
01:46:00Or a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.
01:46:02And I view the tree of life in that quote as inspiration.
01:46:05And the hope deferred was me not creating the content.
01:46:08And when people ask me what my strategy is for videos, I don't have one.
01:46:11Because I treat it like a kid in a sandbox building castles.
01:46:14It's just, it's all content.
01:46:16It's all ideas.
01:46:17And when I suspend the disbelief that it has to be anything, the inspiration just continues to flow.
01:46:22And that's, I encourage all the adults out there to unpucker their asses and have fun.
01:46:27Find a way to have fun.
01:46:29Like you and I in the park the other day, throwing the fucking,
01:46:32Unwinding our fucking rotator cups for 15 minutes.
01:46:35I was not, I was truly, I was, Oh yeah, I forgot it cracked.
01:46:38Oh yeah.
01:46:39Let's see if we can get this on the microphone.
01:46:40Oh, it's popping inside my shoulder, but I, uh, I went like this on the pod the other day and it just, the whole studio heard.
01:46:47But we were, it was so funny the way like the 12 year old inside of all of us or inside of you and I on that walk, as I bent down for the ball, we both went yup.
01:46:56And then it just no words directly into a game of catch.
01:46:59Clarity and conviction is perceived by those who hear it as confidence and competence.
01:47:04One of the most important things someone ever said to me as a mentor of mine.
01:47:08Clarity and conviction is perceived by those who hear it as competence and confidence.
01:47:13I think communication is the number one skill you can develop in this life.
01:47:18You've built a career off of it and you're only as good as your ability to tell a story or tell your story or tell other people's stories on their behalf.
01:47:25But everybody seems to think, or so many people think I am just this way with my, my speaking, my words, it's, it's viewed as this static thing, but it's a muscle that you can train.
01:47:34So when you speak clearly, when you enunciate properly and with conviction that when you sit across the table from me, whether you agree with me or not, you can tell that I believe what I'm saying.
01:47:44You're perceived by the people around you as competent, intelligent, and confident, and people follow competent, confident people.
01:47:51I mean, look at, look at politicians.
01:47:53They might not always be telling the truth, but they sure do speak with clarity and conviction.
01:47:58Someone like Barack Obama's touted as one of the best speakers in the entire presidential candidacy in the history of the presidency and people loved him because he spoke clearly and with conviction.
01:48:09And then people perceived him as competent and confident enough to elect him twice.
01:48:14So the Bible says life and death is in the tongue.
01:48:16What you say is incredibly powerful, both about yourself and the message that you're able to portray about whatever it is.
01:48:25So I encourage people to develop those skillsets and understand it's just a muscle communication skills are just a muscle.
01:48:32It's like the first time you went to the gym and your hands were soft.
01:48:35And now you look at my palms and I've got these calluses as, as you do from all the times I've picked up the dumbbell or the barbell, but the first time I did it, it hurt.
01:48:44And then over time, the hands got harder and more durable communication and public speaking are the same way.
01:48:50And that's about this crazy challenge as this public speaking challenge that I've somehow become tied to has just grown on the internet.
01:49:00I think there's something like 60 or 70,000 people doing it.
01:49:03And I tell you about this, maybe not.
01:49:07If you search on Instagram, I know it's on more on Tik TOK.
01:49:10If you search on Instagram, hashtag higher up wellness challenge, it says 28,000 posts.
01:49:17A year ago, I made a video, maybe more than this, maybe two years ago, I made a, yeah, two years ago, I made a video and I said, the number one skill that can change your life is the ability to communicate efficiently and effectively.
01:49:28And if you don't think you can do it, I promise you can, you just need to practice.
01:49:31So here's what I recommend.
01:49:33I recommend you pick, pick up the phone, turn the front camera on, hit record and talk for 60 seconds.
01:49:39Unbroken, whatever comes up, whatever comes out, no topics, no, it doesn't have to be about anything.
01:49:44Anything goes, try not to use too many filler words like, um, you know, don't use those words and just speak for 60 seconds with no cuts and do it for a minimum of 30 days.
01:49:54I didn't say tag me and hashtag it.
01:49:57This, I didn't try to start a challenge.
01:49:59What happened was this kid, Brandon, he took that video and sort of cut it up.
01:50:06And he said, I'm really terrified to post online and public speaking scares me.
01:50:11And this video convicted me to do it.
01:50:13So I'm just going to title this the higher up wellness public speaking challenge.
01:50:17First video ever, mind you, I said, post on a burner account.
01:50:20Nobody will see it.
01:50:22First video ever, 5 million views overnight.
01:50:25Jim shark comments.
01:50:27I think the Cincinnati Bengals comment like crazy huge accounts comment on this kid just saying, I'm very nervous and I'm going to spend the next 30 days practicing my public speaking skills.
01:50:37And he went from zero to 40,000 followers overnight.
01:50:40And that started just this storm of people practicing their communication skills.
01:50:45I'm just, I think it's very cool that, and I'm honored to even be tied to it, but this kid and this other creator Reagan did this and their videos blew up.
01:50:53And now I'm watching when I click on the hashtag, I'm watching all these people.
01:50:57What I like to do is go to their day one video and then go to their day 30.
01:51:02Some of these people have been doing this for 380 days.
01:51:04There's a guy who was on day 381 and the transformation in their ability to show up, their confidence is unbelievable.
01:51:13I mean, it's direct evidence of the fruit of, of battling the fear of perception.
01:51:17Cause everybody says, I was so scared to post online in case I looked like a cornball.
01:51:21Some of them have developed social media followings.
01:51:24One creator, jet Franzen went from zero to 500,000, I think across his platforms and just blew up and does incredible philosophical takes now.
01:51:34And it's because he just decided to get out of his own way and do this silly challenge.
01:51:38And it's so fucking cool to watch, but it's proof that these are skills you can build clarity.
01:51:45You can build conviction.
01:51:46You can learn how to speak in stream of consciousness.
01:51:48We're not all just gifted with the ability to do it or not do it.
01:51:52It's a skill and you have to hone it.
01:51:54There's definitely an interesting duality to it that clarity and conviction is certainly perceived as confidence and competence and insight and expertise.
01:52:04But as you said, people who don't have expertise or competence can reverse engineer their way into seeming like somebody that you should listen to.
01:52:15It's the criticism of all style and no substance, right? But I think all substance and no style doesn't tend to get listened to.
01:52:24James Smith had this fucking unbelievable line about his first podcast.
01:52:28He's now on his second one.
01:52:30He's like a guy with multiple wives.
01:52:31I think he might be on his third one now.
01:52:33Did he say multiple wives?
01:52:35He's like a guy with multiple wives.
01:52:37It's like serially dating his own podcast and renaming them and then fucking flipping the channels.
01:52:42I thought you meant literally married. I was like, "Damn, this is putting James on blast right now."
01:52:45No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
01:52:47No, he's fucking living a dad life in Australia.
01:52:50And he had this line and he said, "On my podcast, I speak to people who are far smarter than me but much more boring."
01:53:01That's just so true, dude.
01:53:04I just thought, "Oh, that's so great." Or another way to look at it is everything worth saying has been said before but nobody was listening so it has to be said again.
01:53:16It has to be said with more clarity and conviction.
01:53:22I think that's where James got it really right was that a lot of people's ideas are fucking fantastic but they just haven't yet quite worked out how to package them or promote them fully.
01:53:38And lots of people feel like the things that they have to contribute are really wonderful. Wouldn't it be great if more people knew about it? I've got a good take on what should happen with the WNBA.
01:53:52I really think that I can contribute to this. I think I can improve the WNBA, which I imagine needs improving.
01:53:56And why is no one listening to me? I think that my ideas have got veracity. I think that there's some truth in them. I think that they're really, really, really useful.
01:54:04Oh, no one listens to me because of the style thing. And it's kind of like being in a band and your band's music is just too cool. It's just so progressive, man. Like people just don't get it.
01:54:15It's a strange kind of protectionist strategy. It keeps you at arm's distance because the fact that nobody gets it means that you're safe from ever having to compete in the landscape of ideas, music, whatever.
01:54:29Criticism.
01:54:30Yeah, with people who have got their foot in the door. And I think that this is one of the reasons that kind of the underground hero band is seen as a little bit sexy in that way.
01:54:41You wouldn't get it, man. It's so sophisticated. And you think, well, what if you knew how to promote it? What if it was a little bit more attuned to the market and you still had all of this amazing technical ability on the fucking guitar or whatever it is that you're doing?
01:54:56And it at least adapted itself to the market somewhat. And also you need to play the game until you can start to change the rules of it. You don't get to change anything sat in the stands.
01:55:10You have to sort of earn your keep and then, okay, these are the rules of the game and now I can break them. Breaking the rules of the game before knowing them is just not playing the game. You just don't understand what you're doing.
01:55:20Yeah, that's it. The buy-in is to play by the rules or the opposite. I guess the only other option would be sitting on the sideline and bitching about how the rules of the game are unfair.
01:55:29And nothing gets done there. So you might as well play and then learn them, just like you said.
01:55:34If you cannot do something as simple as return the shopping cart to its designated area, I'm going to assume you're a degenerate and your life is in shambles.
01:55:42Shopping cart theory. The litmus test for a good person. Yes. Okay, we've got two new razors out of this podcast. This has been revolutionary. I really believe that, man.
01:55:54And that video, I posted that just the other day, but it's an old one. And every time I think it's got the comment to like to view ratio is just totally fucked because it clearly stirs up negative emotion in people.
01:56:07And every time somebody comments, what a, what a silly thing to care about, or this is just stupid. I would say, just say you're a bad person. You just outed yourself completely.
01:56:16Just say you don't return the shopping cart. Jokes aside. Yeah, it's a bit inflammatory and hyperbolic intentionally, but there's this great Reddit green text about how the shopping cart theory is the litmus test for if you're a functioning self-governing member of society.
01:56:29If you can't even return your shopping cart, what can you do? What is your home life? What does your home life look like? What does your health look like? Everything's probably in shambles.
01:56:41It's with Jordan Peterson, clean your room for the Walmart generation. Yes, that's it for the Walmart. Yeah, that's exactly right. It is the test of self agency and self governing.
01:56:52It's just one of those things, like, why would you not do it? Anyone who voluntarily doesn't do it, I just, it's safe to assume you probably also like hate dogs and treat service workers poorly. It's just the other character test.
01:57:02I think the way that you treat waiters and waitresses is a good indication of this. It's such a good one. And I, I'm just going to say, I think that Americans are the rudest fucking drivers on the planet.
01:57:17You guys treat lanes like they're your property. You ever been to Atlanta? Only the airport a lot, but only the airport.
01:57:26Oh, you've never seen driving like that before, but you're right. What's Atlanta driving like? Like Atlanta women?
01:57:34You're going to get me in trouble with all my friends back home. I can't answer that. I plead the fifth. My opinion is that you don't want my opinion.
01:57:43You don't want me to hear what I've got to say about Atlanta. Atlanta driving is like eyes peeled, bring a gun just in case sort of situation. It's if you're not 15 over you're 15 under and everybody's really angry and got somewhere to be.
01:57:58But it's, it's whatever, you know, to be true about Americans times three in Atlanta, third worst traffic city in the world.
01:58:03Just for clarity, if you're in the UK and you are in front of the car that's in the lane that you're moving into, unless that car is going very quickly, they slow down and let you in. They flash you in.
01:58:16If you're in front of the car and you indicate, you get to move across, you get let in. And if you don't do that, it is incredibly bad form. Fucking unbelievably bad form.
01:58:25In the US, it almost feels like someone speeds up and slows down to make it impossible for you to enter the lane, even behind them.
01:58:33It is, that's been one of the biggest changes of, of being here. And I feel like this is the driving equivalent of the shopping cart theory that how nice of a person can you be if you can't let somebody into the lane in front of you?
01:58:48Not very.
01:58:49We're touching, we're touching on something close to your heart now, aren't we Atlanta driver? How's that feel?
01:58:53Yeah, but I, I, I'm very intentional. If you were in front of me, I'd let you in. Unless I was in a hurry, of course, then it's fuck you, but.
01:58:59That's cute.
01:59:00That's really, everybody's just in a hurry, I guess.
01:59:01Yeah, maybe.
01:59:02Was that, what was the biggest culture shock coming over here in terms of behaviors of people when you first got here?
01:59:07Driving's a big one.
01:59:08Yeah.
01:59:09The driving quality here is horrendous. And I had to take my test and that explained why.
01:59:14Stupid Americans?
01:59:15It's, well, not necessarily stupid, just like distractable, I think. Caffeine fueled WhatsApp messaging. Fuck you.
01:59:23Dude, we don't use WhatsApp over here. I tried to tell you that.
01:59:25Signal, telegram messaging, whatever the fuck.
01:59:27I messaged you.
01:59:28You should use, I mean, it would probably be fixed if you're using WhatsApp.
01:59:30Probably.
01:59:31The driving was a huge one. Tipping culture, massive, done to death, but just it's not, if you tip in the UK, if you tip, it's, oh, you're being generous. And if you tip 10%, it's fucking insane. You just don't need to, people don't.
01:59:47And then I went to the Moody Center to go and see Jelly Roll Play, and there's a fully automated self-serve checkout kiosk, beers and snacks and stuff like that. And it asks for a tip.
02:00:04Dude, that shit infuriates me.
02:00:06There is no human, who am I tipping?
02:00:11Or the barista that you give them a black coffee, you ask for a black coffee and a six-second interaction, they flip the screen and then stare at you.
02:00:17So that, that is because supposedly service workers are paid poorly. I don't know why they get paid in the US. But if it's just a fucking robot, dude, Sam Altman, sorry, your downstream fucking progeny, don't get my, I'm not paying your fucking robot assistance. It wouldn't be Sam. Who would it be? Boston Dynamics. Boston Dynamics, I'm sorry, I'm not fucking paying you.
02:00:40Your little robot assistance. Dude, we got to go to dinner. We got dinner with Trigonometry and Richard Reeves. Where should people go? You fucking rule. I think your content's great.
02:00:48Thank you, brother.
02:00:49I look forward to seeing what you do. So where should people go?
02:00:52Higher Up Wellness on all platforms, the Higher Up Podcast. I will say I am, I don't have the name memorized, but I'd love to share this because it just got news today. Marathon Weekend in London. I'm doing my first live show at the Bush Hall, the Bush Hall Theater. April 25th, Marathon Weekend. Tickets on that, tickets for that go on sale this week. I will be promoting it, so just be on the lookout. We're going to do.
02:01:16What can people get tickets?
02:01:17It's going to be posted to my Instagram story. The link's not live. I tried to ask him, where can they get them? And he said, I can't tell you that yet. We don't have it. So it'll be posted like hell on my social medias across the board, but thank you so much for giving me the time, man.
02:01:31I was sitting here before the episode went on and we were chatting and I said, I think I hold a pretty esteemed accolade. I think I'm, I was reviewing the guest list and I think I'm top 10 least formally educated guests you've ever had on the show. So to you community college grads, there's hope for you out there.
02:01:45Well done. I ranked in the most retarded Modern Wisdom guest. All right. Appreciate you. Goodbye, everybody.
02:01:51Bye.

Key Takeaway

Long-term success for high achievers requires enduring the 'lonely chapter' of obsessive skill development and overcoming the 'arrival fallacy' by viewing external milestones as byproduct games rather than sources of identity.

Highlights

90% of podcasts fail to progress past the third episode, and only 1% of the remaining shows survive past episode 20.

The shopping cart theory serves as a litmus test for self-governance, as it requires an individual to perform a task with no legal penalty for failure and no reward for compliance.

Practicing public speaking for 60 seconds daily for 30 days without editing creates significant improvements in confidence and communication clarity.

Successful athletes and creators often possess a higher threshold for stress developed through previous periods of extreme personal adversity or 'lonely chapters'.

Mitochondrial decline in the 30s and 40s necessitates cellular support like urolithin-A to maintain muscle recovery and strength during training.

Suppression of emotion often leads to depression, while processing anger and grief allows for the eventual achievement of clarity and gratitude.

Achieving high-status milestones, such as reaching one million followers, often results in hedonic adaptation where the win feels like a normal obligation rather than a victory.

Timeline

The High Achiever Dilemma and Hedonic Adaptation

  • High achievers often view success as a baseline obligation rather than a cause for celebration.
  • Hedonic adaptation turns major life improvements, like a new house or a fitness PR, into the new invisible normal.
  • Romanticizing daily actions prevents burnout and helps maintain the feeling of victory during major achievements.

The cycle of constant progress moves the goalposts so that exceptional feats eventually feel mundane. This perspective shift causes individuals to live in the gap between where they are and where they want to be, rather than appreciating their actual growth. Practicing gratitude and romanticizing small moments serves as an antidote to this inevitable psychological desensitization.

Ambition and the Alexander the Great Fallacy

  • Standards often outstrip the ability to deliver, creating a permanent feeling of inadequacy.
  • The true Alexander the Great quote reveals he wept because there were infinite worlds and he had not yet mastered one.
  • Service to others provides fulfillment when material and status-based goals prove hollow.

Ambition frequently outpaces reality's ability to satisfy it, leading to a state of perpetual mild discomfort. Realizing human insignificance can be liberating rather than depressing because it shifts the focus from self-aggrandizement to serving others. This shift provides a sustainable source of fulfillment that material wealth or fame cannot replicate.

Emotional Resilience and the Healing Process

  • True healing from trauma or loss is only possible once the individual is willing to reveal and feel the associated emotions.
  • Suffering is defined as the product of pain multiplied by resistance to that pain.
  • Suppression of expression leads to depression and subconscious interference in relationships and work.

Managing or intellectualizing an emotion is not the same as processing it. Resisting the pain of events like the death of a parent creates unnecessary suffering, whereas allowing the emotion to move through the body leads to revelation and gratitude. Strength is found in the vulnerability of expressing anger, grief, or guilt rather than burying them.

The Masculine Coming of Age Through Adversity

  • The loss of a parent often serves as a modern ritual transition from boyhood to manhood.
  • High-stress caregiving environments significantly increase a person's nervous system threshold for future challenges.
  • Adversity raises empathy and patience by providing a concrete contrast to trivial daily frustrations.

Experience with real suffering, such as caring for a dying father and managing his physical falls at 3 a.m., makes internet criticism or minor career setbacks seem insignificant. This period of hardship functions as a forced metamorphosis that builds capacity and ego-dissolution. The process reveals that an individual's actual capacity for stress is far greater than their perceived limit.

The Fear of Perception and Social Media Dynamics

  • The primary barrier to success is the fear of being perceived and judged by others.
  • Words only have power to hurt if the recipient believes they are true or fears others will believe they are true.
  • Authenticity acts as a filter that removes the wrong audience while deepening the connection with the right one.

A 'soft cancellation' on the internet often stems from the 'Smokes Razor' principle: when people ask for an opinion, they are usually demanding agreement with their own. Standing by personal convictions during social media storms builds radical authenticity. This approach prevents building a career on a false identity that would eventually lead to psychological collapse.

The Three Pillars of Content and Obsession

  • Effective content combines informational authority, aspirational storytelling, and relational humanity.
  • Obsession differs from discipline because it creates a state where the individual 'cannot not do' the task.
  • External rewards are poor motivators because people ultimately want the feeling a thing gives them rather than the thing itself.

Information alone is insufficient for audience growth; creators must also show their human side and the hardships they have overcome. Obsession is a powerful fuel that eventually cools into the hard rock of discipline. Recognizing that material successes are imperfect manifestations helps avoid the sin of idolatry and maintains focus on long-term service.

The Lonely Chapter and Skills Development

  • Loneliness during a period of self-improvement is a benchmark indicating the individual is on the right path.
  • Success results from doing the obvious thing for an extraordinary period of time without quitting.
  • Surviving 21 episodes places a podcaster in the top percentile of the entire industry.

The journey of personal development involves an 'Ouroboros' effect where one must self-generate and self-educate without external validation. Many people quit right before they strike gold because they lack the 'testicular fortitude' to handle the boredom of the middle phase. Consistency is rare precisely because it is not romantic or sexy during the daily grind.

Communication as the Ultimate Leverage Muscle

  • Clarity and conviction are interpreted by listeners as competence and confidence.
  • Recording 60-second unedited daily videos for 30 days is a proven method to develop communication skills.
  • The shopping cart theory identifies whether an individual is a functioning, self-governing member of society.

Effective communication is a trainable muscle rather than a static trait. By practicing stream-of-consciousness speaking, individuals can learn to eliminate filler words and enunciate with authority. Small acts of self-governance, like returning a shopping cart or letting drivers into a lane, signal the internal character required for larger-scale success.

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