A Masterclass in Changing Your Limiting Beliefs - Nir Eyal

English
CChris Williamson
정신 건강경영/리더십자격증/평생교육

Transcript

00:00:00Nir Eyal, welcome to the show.
00:00:02- Thanks, Chris, great to be back.
00:00:03- Dude, 2019, episode 104, all the way to now.
00:00:08- I'm gonna take credit for all your success since then.
00:00:10(laughing)
00:00:11- It was, it was built--
00:00:12- Is that okay, was I the lucky charm?
00:00:14- It was built on a foundation of you and indestructible,
00:00:17that's exactly correct.
00:00:19New one, all about belief.
00:00:20Why is belief so important?
00:00:23- Okay, so beliefs turns out to be the lens
00:00:29with which we see the world.
00:00:31And I had no idea how profound this research
00:00:34that's been coming out over the past several years
00:00:36has on our day-to-day lives.
00:00:37How beliefs shape what we see, literally shape what we see.
00:00:41I can show the same exact image to two different people
00:00:44and they will see completely different things.
00:00:45It's called the coffer illusion.
00:00:46You can look at this piece of paper
00:00:47and I can show you to one person based on where they grew up
00:00:51and their priors, their beliefs, and they'll see circles.
00:00:54I can show it to somebody else based on where they grew up,
00:00:56they'll see rectangles, it's incredible.
00:00:59Beliefs not only shape what you see,
00:01:01not just figuratively,
00:01:02but they actually shape reality that you see,
00:01:03they shape what you feel, your internal state,
00:01:06and most importantly, they affect what you do.
00:01:08And so everything comes upstream from these beliefs.
00:01:11And so you better get these beliefs right
00:01:13if they're going to run your life.
00:01:15- I think one of the challenges people have
00:01:19when they hear the word belief
00:01:20is it gets perilously close to Rhonda Byrne,
00:01:23The Secret, Manifestation.
00:01:26You know, you've come from a productivity background,
00:01:28same as me, kind of hardcore, quite sterile almost in a way,
00:01:33very sort of frameworks, rigid structures.
00:01:37Belief sounds almost whimsical as a topic to get into.
00:01:41- You know, that is a great point
00:01:44because there is a lot of bullshit out there.
00:01:48So part of what I wanted to do with this research
00:01:51that I've done over the past six years for Beyond Belief
00:01:54was to really separate what works and what doesn't.
00:01:56And a lot of it, frankly, I'll give that crowd some credit.
00:01:59A lot of it works, but not for the reasons they say it does.
00:02:02(laughing)
00:02:04That like, you know, I hate to burst anybody's bubble,
00:02:06but no, nothing is vibrating and quantum whatevering
00:02:11and like the universe really doesn't give a shit.
00:02:14It is not, you know, all the manifesting stuff.
00:02:17It can work, kind of, and I do dive into some research
00:02:22around how it turns out positive thinking
00:02:24can have a very negative effect if you don't do it properly.
00:02:29So I kind of wanted to dispel some of those myths
00:02:30and yet, I've changed my mind about a lot of stuff
00:02:34that I didn't used to do and I used to kind of,
00:02:37you know, I'm very science backed.
00:02:38You know, all my books have pages and pages of citations
00:02:41to peer reviewed studies.
00:02:42I have to see the study, not just it worked for me,
00:02:44but I need to see the peer reviewed studies
00:02:45that show that it worked for others in a controlled study.
00:02:48And so there's a lot of mythology out there.
00:02:51Even in the academic community, to be honest,
00:02:53there's a lot of studies that I look through
00:02:54that I thought were kind of, you know, gold standard studies
00:02:56and you kind of dig into how they were done methodologically
00:02:59and you realize, oh, they're kind of crappy studies too.
00:03:02So it was a lot of sorting through the meat from the chaff
00:03:05to figure out what we can actually
00:03:06practically apply to our lives.
00:03:08The good news is there's a lot of unbelievable research
00:03:12that has come out of the past several years
00:03:14that just absolutely blew my mind.
00:03:15For example, one thing is that we now know
00:03:18that placebos work even when you know they're a placebo,
00:03:24which we didn't used to know before, right?
00:03:25We used to think that placebos had to have
00:03:26some kind of deception effect, right?
00:03:28That you had to, both people,
00:03:30the person prescribing the medication
00:03:32in a double blind control study
00:03:34had to not know who was receiving the placebo
00:03:36and the person, of course, receiving it
00:03:37couldn't know if it was a placebo.
00:03:39Turns out that's not true, that you can get amazing effects.
00:03:42Ted Kaptchuk at Harvard showed this with IBS patients.
00:03:44He gave people a pill bottle that said placebos on it.
00:03:48By the way, you can go on Amazon today
00:03:50and buy placebo pills with five star reviews
00:03:53that say, "Amazing how fast acting this placebo was."
00:03:56It's incredible.
00:03:57He told people, "Hey, this is a placebo.
00:03:59"It is a completely inert substance.
00:04:02"However, it has been shown to help some people
00:04:06"with symptoms of IBS."
00:04:08Turns out it performed just as well as the leading medication.
00:04:10- No fucking way.
00:04:12- Not only that, wait, the story gets better.
00:04:14People called up Dr. Kaptchuk afterwards and said,
00:04:17"Hey, that placebo pill was amazing for my symptoms.
00:04:20"Can I get some more of those?"
00:04:22- Well, you gotta make sure it's the right brand
00:04:25of placebo pill because if you change the strain,
00:04:28the gut microbiome won't respond.
00:04:30Dude, it is wild.
00:04:32I remember reading a study about branded ibuprofen,
00:04:37branded painkillers being more effective
00:04:40than own-label painkillers.
00:04:41You don't wanna get the CVS own brand.
00:04:43You wanna get the Nurofen version of it for the same reason,
00:04:46that despite the fact that people know
00:04:48it's the precise same structure that's inside of there
00:04:51at the same dose, just the expectation effect
00:04:56that David Robson wrote about,
00:04:57which I'm sure you're familiar with.
00:04:58It's just across everything.
00:05:01- It's crazy.
00:05:01- That is wild.
00:05:04- Yeah, yeah, and it just goes on and on.
00:05:06And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
00:05:08So not only does it affect our bodies
00:05:11and, in fact, how our biology becomes our beliefs
00:05:14in many ways, it's much more nuanced
00:05:17and much more practical than I used to think.
00:05:19I think a lot of people think that there's some kind
00:05:20of like magic to placebos and placebos can heal you.
00:05:23It turns out that's not really true,
00:05:25that there's a difference between sickness and illness.
00:05:29Sickness is in the body, some kind of physical malady,
00:05:32some kind of physical disease,
00:05:33some kind of something that's not working properly
00:05:35in the body.
00:05:36Illness is the psychological perception of symptoms.
00:05:40So placebos don't work at all when it comes to sickness.
00:05:45They're really effective when it comes to illness.
00:05:47And so you can actually practically use many of these tools,
00:05:50both things that look like pharmaceuticals,
00:05:52like pills and injections and treatments and potions,
00:05:55but also rituals, right?
00:05:57So for the first time in my life, I started to pray.
00:05:59I didn't pray since I was a little kid.
00:06:01And now I started adopting prayer in my life
00:06:04because it's incredible.
00:06:06Like if you look at the research, people who pray,
00:06:09they live longer, they are a lot healthier,
00:06:13they are happier, they have lower incidents
00:06:15of depression and anxiety.
00:06:18Now, what's really crazy is that turns out the studies show
00:06:21that you actually get a lot of the same benefits from prayer,
00:06:26even without faith.
00:06:27And that really blew my mind.
00:06:28And I think this is exactly what I'm trying to address here.
00:06:30This crisis, this epidemic that I think we're seeing
00:06:33of loneliness, disconnection, anxiety,
00:06:35all kinds of maladies, I think are coming from the fact
00:06:39that we've become more secular.
00:06:41In the States, 30% of Americans today identify as none.
00:06:45It's the largest religious group in America.
00:06:47N-O-N-E, not N-U-N, not the Catholic none,
00:06:50but N-O-N-E, people who don't affiliate with any religion.
00:06:53And in fact, many of them call themselves spiritual,
00:06:57but not religious.
00:06:58You've probably heard this a ton, right?
00:06:59You're in Austin, you have a lot of people around you
00:07:01who call themselves spiritual, not religious.
00:07:03Well, those people are the worst off.
00:07:05They have the highest incidences
00:07:07of anxiety and depression disorder than other groups.
00:07:11So you're more likely to suffer
00:07:12if you say you're spiritual and not religious
00:07:14than if you just say you're a freethinker, agnostic,
00:07:16or of course, if you are religious.
00:07:17So it turns out you can get a lot of the same benefits,
00:07:21and this is what I discovered,
00:07:23by using prayer with ritual almost as a placebo.
00:07:27Maybe you stop questioning even as I did
00:07:29whether I need it to be an absolute fact
00:07:31that everything I'm saying is actually true
00:07:34the way that the religious leader would say it,
00:07:36and rather just go about the actual rituals
00:07:38that have been around for thousands and thousands of years.
00:07:40And so that's part of what I discovered
00:07:41on this journey as well.
00:07:43What do you think is the reason for spiritual
00:07:45but not religious having the worst outcomes?
00:07:47I think that it loses the fundamental tenets
00:07:53of what religion gives us.
00:07:54So the story that I went on,
00:07:58the journey that I went on, I should say,
00:08:00was that I went to, well, let me back up a second.
00:08:04Let me tell you about the study that inspired this.
00:08:06So I read this study that showed that they took,
00:08:12they called people in the lab,
00:08:14and they had a group that was religious and spiritual,
00:08:18people who had a faith practice
00:08:20that believed in some kind of higher power,
00:08:22some kind of supernatural.
00:08:23And they also had a group of people
00:08:25who were not spiritual at all,
00:08:27didn't have any faith tradition.
00:08:29And then they had a control group.
00:08:31And they taught the people
00:08:33who didn't have a faith tradition how to pray.
00:08:36And the control group, they said, "Do whatever you want."
00:08:38They brought those people into a lab later on,
00:08:42and they asked all three groups
00:08:43to put their hand inside very cold water.
00:08:46Now, this is kind of a standard assessment.
00:08:47It's a pain tolerance test.
00:08:48And we see how long you can last
00:08:50in that very, very, very cold, almost freezing water.
00:08:53And they also measure facial grimaces
00:08:55and different expressions.
00:08:56And if you say anything about the pain,
00:08:57so they're measuring your pain tolerance
00:08:58and how long you can finally stay in the water.
00:09:01Well, no surprise, the people who prayed,
00:09:03who had a faith-based prayer practice,
00:09:07they lasted much longer than the control group.
00:09:10But even the people who were taught how to pray,
00:09:13who did not have a faith background,
00:09:17if they could substitute some other word,
00:09:20the universe, the sum of all forces, mother nature,
00:09:23something that was meaningful to them,
00:09:25they also had higher pain tolerance than the control group.
00:09:29And so this fascinated me.
00:09:30And so I went to five religious leaders,
00:09:32and this is gonna sound like the setup of a joke,
00:09:34but this is exactly what happened.
00:09:36I went to a rabbi, an imam, a priest, a monk, and a swami.
00:09:40And I asked them all the same question.
00:09:42How do you pray even if you have doubts about God?
00:09:47And I took away from each of them practices
00:09:51that I think anyone can use,
00:09:52whether you have a belief in the supernatural or not.
00:09:55If you do have a faith in the supernatural, that's fantastic.
00:09:57Turns out that a lot of us, I was missing out
00:10:00because I wanted to have the facts that I'm not gonna pray
00:10:03unless I absolutely believe exactly what the religion says.
00:10:06And now I've been able to release that,
00:10:09that now every time I go by a place of worship,
00:10:11whether it's a church or a mosque or a synagogue,
00:10:13if they'll have me inside, I go in and pray.
00:10:16And it doesn't cost me anything.
00:10:18And it helps me refocus.
00:10:20It helps me become grateful.
00:10:23And it sometimes engages me in a community.
00:10:26All these practices that religion teaches
00:10:29have kind of escaped us.
00:10:32By the way, and interesting if not,
00:10:33you asked why is spiritual but not religious?
00:10:35Why does that have these negative outcomes?
00:10:38Not every country is the same when it comes to that regard.
00:10:40In fact, in Japan, I just got back from Japan
00:10:42a few weeks ago.
00:10:42In Japan, it's the exact opposite.
00:10:45They are religious but not spiritual.
00:10:48So the Japanese, they absolutely will go to the Shinto shrines.
00:10:54They'll go to the Buddhist temples.
00:10:55They do all the rituals, but when you actually ask them,
00:10:57do you actually, do you really have faith
00:10:59in the supernatural animism?
00:11:01Not really, not so much, but they do the ritual.
00:11:05And they have, they gain all these psychological benefits
00:11:08that come from it.
00:11:09- That's so interesting.
00:11:12That is so cool.
00:11:13I can imagine a lot of people thinking,
00:11:16oh, this is perilously close to wishful thinking.
00:11:20You're asking people to delusion themselves
00:11:24into see it, believe it, wish it, achieve it,
00:11:28but don't actually have to do anything about it.
00:11:31Square the circle of being a pretty grounded,
00:11:36agentic guy who wants to make things happen
00:11:39and realizes that you need to row the boat
00:11:41with not wanting to rely too much on delusion and whimsy.
00:11:46- Totally, so for, okay, let's address those separately.
00:11:50So first of all, you're already gaslighting yourself.
00:11:55You're already delusional.
00:11:57In fact, none of us actually see reality as it is.
00:12:01How do we know this?
00:12:03The brain is absorbing about 11 million bits
00:12:06of information per second.
00:12:07So right now, listening to my voice,
00:12:09your brain is actually taking in
00:12:1111 million bits of information,
00:12:12the sound of my voice in your ears,
00:12:14the light entering your eyeballs,
00:12:17the temperature of the room.
00:12:19Your brain is actually absorbing all this,
00:12:2011 million bits of information.
00:12:22But conscious processing only has the capacity
00:12:26for about 50 bits of information.
00:12:28So 11 million bits of information,
00:12:30to put that in perspective,
00:12:31that's like reading War and Peace twice every second.
00:12:35Okay, a tremendous amount of information.
00:12:3750 bits of information is about one sentence
00:12:39of information per second.
00:12:41So 50 bits versus 11 bits.
00:12:42That's .000045% of the information you're receiving
00:12:46are you able to absorb.
00:12:48The brain just can't deal with it.
00:12:49So what does it do?
00:12:51It has to use what we call predictive processing.
00:12:53It doesn't see reality as it is.
00:12:55It sees reality as it expects it to,
00:12:59Chris?
00:13:01- Appear.
00:13:02- There you go, right?
00:13:03As you expect it to appear,
00:13:04as you expect it to be.
00:13:05How did you know that that was the next word?
00:13:07Because your brain predicted it
00:13:09based on what we call priors,
00:13:11based on your prior experience,
00:13:12your prior beliefs.
00:13:14And so based on those factors,
00:13:16you are seeing reality not as it actually is in a second,
00:13:19you're seeing it based on a prediction.
00:13:20So you're already living in a simulation.
00:13:22It's not the matrix that we all live in,
00:13:24not like the movie,
00:13:25we all live in our own simulation
00:13:27inside our own heads at every single second.
00:13:30Now what we don't realize
00:13:32is that our beliefs are already deluding us
00:13:35through what we call limiting beliefs.
00:13:37These are beliefs that sap your motivation
00:13:39and delude you into doing things
00:13:41that oftentimes you later regret, right?
00:13:43I'm not a morning person.
00:13:45I'm too old.
00:13:46I'm too young.
00:13:47I'm too fat.
00:13:47I'm too thin.
00:13:48It's too late.
00:13:49I have no time, right?
00:13:50Like all these limiting beliefs
00:13:51that we tell ourselves all the time,
00:13:52they're already a delusion.
00:13:53You're already gaslighting yourself.
00:13:54What I'm advocating for, what I've discovered
00:13:58is that you can actually choose your beliefs
00:14:01because beliefs are not facts, okay?
00:14:03Facts are something different.
00:14:05Facts are defined as objective truths, okay?
00:14:09It's something that's true whether you believe it or not.
00:14:11The world is more like a sphere than it is flat.
00:14:14Sorry, Flat Earth, there's a fact.
00:14:16On the opposite end of the spectrum is what we call faith.
00:14:20Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence, okay?
00:14:24What happens in the afterlife, God rewards the righteous.
00:14:28These are matters of faith.
00:14:29They do not require evidence.
00:14:31- Do you see these as kind of two opposite ends
00:14:33of the same spectrum?
00:14:34- Yeah, yeah.
00:14:35Because of the evidence-- - One that requires
00:14:37100% evidence and one that doesn't require
00:14:38any evidence at all.
00:14:39Okay, cool.
00:14:40- That's right.
00:14:41Now in the middle is a belief.
00:14:43A belief is a conviction
00:14:45that is open to revision based on evidence.
00:14:48So you can choose your beliefs.
00:14:52And these beliefs shape what you see,
00:14:53what you feel and what you do.
00:14:55And we carry them around as if they are ultimate truths,
00:14:59as if they are facts.
00:15:00I think the vast majority of our personal problems,
00:15:02our interpersonal problems, our political problems
00:15:05come from the fact that we see these truths,
00:15:08these facts as immutable when really most of them are beliefs
00:15:11and those are the beliefs that guide our life.
00:15:13If you think about the decisions we have to make.
00:15:16Should I move to this city?
00:15:17Should I take this job?
00:15:18Should I date this person?
00:15:20All of these questions are based on beliefs,
00:15:23not facts, we don't have perfect certainty
00:15:25about answering these questions.
00:15:26They're based on beliefs.
00:15:28And so if we take a step back,
00:15:30we can observe our beliefs for the first time
00:15:32for most of us because you can't see
00:15:34your own limiting beliefs.
00:15:35It's like your face, right?
00:15:36You can't see your face even though you have it all day long
00:15:40unless you look at the mirror.
00:15:41So unless we sit down and observe
00:15:43what are these limiting beliefs holding me back,
00:15:45you don't even know you have these limiting beliefs.
00:15:47Of course you can see everyone else's limiting beliefs.
00:15:50I bet you every single person you know,
00:15:52well, you could probably say,
00:15:53"Oh, I know that person's limiting beliefs."
00:15:55You just can't see your own limiting beliefs.
00:15:56And so that's why we have to pause,
00:15:58take them out and figure out are they serving me
00:16:01or are they hurting me?
00:16:01So the big aha for me and what's absolutely changed my life
00:16:05over the past years that I've done this research is this,
00:16:09is that I constantly remind myself
00:16:10that beliefs are tools, not truths.
00:16:14Beliefs are tools, not truths.
00:16:15You can use them and once they don't serve you,
00:16:19you can put them down like a carpenter.
00:16:20A carpenter doesn't say, "Oh, a hammer.
00:16:22"Hammer is the one and only true tool."
00:16:24No, a carpenter says, "Sometimes I use a hammer,
00:16:26"sometimes I use a saw, sometimes I use a wrench."
00:16:29And you use the right tool for the job
00:16:30just like you can put down those old beliefs,
00:16:32pick up new ones.
00:16:33- What comes first, evidence or belief?
00:16:36- Evidence, because all of our beliefs
00:16:42are based on past experiences.
00:16:44So if you're defining evidence as past experiences as priors,
00:16:47then yeah, they come from our past experiences in some way.
00:16:50- Okay, in that case, how do we get escape velocity
00:16:55from just this is a pattern from my past.
00:16:59I want a belief that isn't necessarily associated with that.
00:17:02I have struggled to maintain going to the gym in the past.
00:17:07Therefore, I am the sort of person
00:17:09who doesn't really go to the gym consistently.
00:17:12That seems to be a dead end, right?
00:17:15If our beliefs are based on past patterns
00:17:17and that is the evidence and that's,
00:17:20well, until we change the pattern,
00:17:23the belief can't change, is that right?
00:17:25- Well, we can recognize that none of these things
00:17:28are laws of nature.
00:17:30That they're up here, that we are making these up.
00:17:33So when we say I'm the kind of person who,
00:17:35you should have a big red flag.
00:17:37By the way, also with other people,
00:17:39we don't see other people,
00:17:40just like we don't see reality as it really is.
00:17:42We don't see other people as they really are.
00:17:44We see our beliefs about people.
00:17:46And it's interesting, the more you know somebody,
00:17:49the more you see their beliefs, which is why it makes,
00:17:50I don't know if you've had this experience,
00:17:51I had this all the time,
00:17:52where I'll meet somebody and they'll be so nice to me
00:17:54and then their family member will come around
00:17:56and they're absolute schmucks to their family member.
00:17:59They treat them like garbage.
00:18:00I see that all the time
00:18:01because it tends to be the people we know best
00:18:03that we say, oh, she always does that
00:18:05or that's so like him, right?
00:18:07And we start building these effigies of people
00:18:11because of how we see them
00:18:12and of course, how we see ourselves.
00:18:14So how do we, what do we do about this?
00:18:15What's the practical tip here?
00:18:18We look for the areas of our life
00:18:19where we consistently get stuck.
00:18:21The New Year's resolution that has been there for ages.
00:18:26The pain and suffering in our life
00:18:28that we can't seem to escape.
00:18:29And I'm talking even the most extreme types of pain.
00:18:31I did this amazing research on hypnocidation.
00:18:34Like people who literally have
00:18:36scaffolds opening their bodies
00:18:39and they can do it without any anesthesia whatsoever.
00:18:44Chronic pain, right?
00:18:46People who have overcome chronic pain, fibromyalgia,
00:18:49all through the power of beliefs.
00:18:51So where we look for,
00:18:52we look for these reoccurring problems
00:18:56that we seem to get stuck on.
00:18:57And that's where we look for underneath what we find
00:19:01are typically these limiting beliefs.
00:19:02And then we have a process to what do we do next with them?
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00:20:17What's wrong with the traditional view
00:20:19of behavior, motivation and change?
00:20:23Like what, if motivation collapses without belief,
00:20:28why do most productivity systems
00:20:30just ignore that layer entirely?
00:20:33If belief is the root of success,
00:20:34why aren't we taught to build it like we do with discipline?
00:20:38- Because the way we think of motivation,
00:20:41I think is incomplete.
00:20:43That we think of motivation
00:20:45in the traditional economic sense.
00:20:47That it's all about incentives.
00:20:49That it's kind of a straight line.
00:20:50That if I want the benefit of a behavior,
00:20:54then I'll do the behavior to get the benefit, right?
00:20:57Classic, that's how we pay salaries, right?
00:20:59If you do the job description, you get the salary.
00:21:02But there's something clearly missing.
00:21:05Motivation is not a straight line.
00:21:07Motivation is a triangle.
00:21:08You have behavior on one side, here's what I need to do.
00:21:11Then you have the benefit, here's why I want to do it.
00:21:13But the thing missing, holding the whole thing together,
00:21:16the triangle together, is belief.
00:21:18That if I don't believe in the outcome,
00:21:20so for example, if I'm working for a boss
00:21:22who I don't think has my best interest at heart,
00:21:24I don't believe I'm gonna get that promotion.
00:21:26I don't believe I'm gonna get that raise
00:21:27'cause I don't trust my boss.
00:21:28I don't believe in them.
00:21:29I'm not gonna get the benefit
00:21:31and so I lose trust in that benefit.
00:21:33Much more likely, and what I see is quite often the case
00:21:36for everyone, is a lack of belief in myself,
00:21:40to do the behavior, right?
00:21:42That for whatever reason,
00:21:43I don't trust myself to do that thing.
00:21:45And if I lose faith, if I lose the belief in myself,
00:21:48then I also won't do the behavior.
00:21:49So for motivation to persist over the long term,
00:21:53and we know that persistence is this defining trait,
00:21:55persistence and adaptability,
00:21:57two most important traits in achieving your goals,
00:22:00you will quit unless you have not only the belief
00:22:04in what you are doing and the belief in the benefit.
00:22:07That's what holds it all together.
00:22:09And I think that that's a piece that's oftentimes missing.
00:22:12- I guess as well, the set point that we're coming into this
00:22:17with around belief is it doesn't feel quite as in our hands.
00:22:22It doesn't feel like the sort of thing that we can engineer
00:22:25because again, it is further away from the discipline,
00:22:29the productivity system, the five steps to get you there.
00:22:32Can you engineer belief?
00:22:34Is a question that probably a lot of people have,
00:22:35I wish I could believe in it, but they've struggled with it.
00:22:39So yeah, I think we've got a bit of conceptual inertia
00:22:42coming in from where we were previously.
00:22:45- To me, that's the fun part is that you can try
00:22:48on the craziest beliefs and they always sound crazy.
00:22:50Whatever that liberating belief is,
00:22:52it always sounds ridiculous
00:22:54because we love our limiting beliefs.
00:22:56They served us at one point, they're comforting.
00:22:59We don't have to change
00:22:59and we don't want to see any other potential way.
00:23:02- And I'll share what happened to me
00:23:06doing a similar exercise.
00:23:08And this has to do with a very personal relationship
00:23:11with my mom.
00:23:12She had her birthday not that long ago, her 74th,
00:23:16and I wanted to do something nice for her.
00:23:18So I wanted to get her some flowers.
00:23:20Problem was I was in Singapore at the time.
00:23:21She was in central Florida where I grew up.
00:23:24And I wanted to do something special.
00:23:26So I stayed up till one in the morning, calling up florists,
00:23:30making sure that I found the right one that had good reviews,
00:23:32that they could get there in time,
00:23:33that despite the Florida heat, they wouldn't shrivel,
00:23:36that they would get there.
00:23:37I went to sleep, 1 a.m., I patted myself on the shoulder.
00:23:39I said, "Okay, good job, Nir, you did it.
00:23:42"You're a good son."
00:23:43And I called my mom up the next morning and I said,
00:23:48"Hey, happy birthday, did you get the flowers?"
00:23:50And she says, "Yes, thank you very much, I got the flowers,
00:23:53"but you should know that they were half dead
00:23:57"and you really shouldn't order from them anymore."
00:24:00To which I blurted out something that I would have said
00:24:03when I was 13, I said something to the effect of,
00:24:05"Well, that's the last time I ever buy you flowers."
00:24:08And Chris, that went over about as well as you think.
00:24:11It didn't go over very well at all.
00:24:13Now after the call, my wife turned to me and she said,
00:24:17"Hey, do you wanna do a turnaround on this?"
00:24:19And I said, I definitely did not want to do the turnaround,
00:24:23this mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus, touchy feely crap.
00:24:27I didn't need that, I wanted to vent.
00:24:28I wanted to tell her why my mom was being way too judgmental
00:24:32and I wanted her to let me vent.
00:24:34Well, it turns out the research shows
00:24:35that venting does not work,
00:24:37that venting does nothing but cement the vision
00:24:40that you have of people,
00:24:41the beliefs that you have about people,
00:24:42it just makes them more vivid.
00:24:45So venting we know does not work,
00:24:46even though that's kind of the conventional advice,
00:24:47that you have to blow a steam,
00:24:48you have to say how you really feel, don't hold things back.
00:24:51Turns out, it's not so great.
00:24:53I knew that at the time and so I did one of these turnarounds.
00:24:55So I took out these four questions
00:24:57and I started with what is the belief?
00:25:01The belief was very clearly, I wrote it down,
00:25:03my mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
00:25:06Now the first question like we just did with you, is it true?
00:25:08Obviously, Chris, you're on my side here, right?
00:25:10My mother, what mother doesn't thank their son
00:25:13for the flowers, who says that?
00:25:15Clearly she was too judgmental and hard to please.
00:25:17Absolutely, it was true.
00:25:19Second question, is it absolutely true?
00:25:21Meaning is there no other possible explanation
00:25:24other than my belief?
00:25:26Well, if I'm honest, maybe, okay, whatever.
00:25:29Maybe there's another explanation.
00:25:30Okay, I don't want to think about
00:25:31what that explanation could be, but perhaps.
00:25:34Then the third question, who am I when I hold this belief?
00:25:37Well, when I believe my mother is too judgmental
00:25:40and hard to please, I'm kind of a jerk.
00:25:43I'm judgmental, I'm short-tempered, I'm not myself.
00:25:46I'm embarrassed about what I do.
00:25:48And then the fourth question is
00:25:50who would I be without that belief?
00:25:52And if I'm honest, I would be much happier.
00:25:55If there was a magic wand and I could erase
00:25:57that belief from my head, that'd be great.
00:25:59I wouldn't be so judgmental, I'd be me.
00:26:01And then I did this turnaround.
00:26:03So I took that belief, my mother is too judgmental
00:26:06and hard to please, and I turned it around.
00:26:08I asked myself, could the exact opposite be true?
00:26:10As ridiculous as that sounds, I mean, to your question,
00:26:13how do we possibly believe something
00:26:15if we just don't believe something?
00:26:17We're confusing facts with belief.
00:26:19It doesn't matter if it's true.
00:26:20That's how we do it, to answer your question.
00:26:22So is there any possible truth in it?
00:26:26Could there possibly be a way
00:26:28that my mother was not being too judgmental
00:26:31and hard to please?
00:26:32Thought about it for a few minutes and I had to admit,
00:26:35maybe she was just trying to save me some money.
00:26:37Maybe she just didn't want me to be scammed from this florist.
00:26:40So, okay, that could be true.
00:26:42There might be another explanation.
00:26:44Then I did another turnaround.
00:26:45I am too judgmental and hard to please.
00:26:49Could that be true?
00:26:50I am too judgmental and hard to please?
00:26:51Well, kinda did demand in my head in the script
00:26:55of when I called her and said, hey, happy birthday,
00:26:57how are the flowers?
00:26:58I had already scripted out exactly the way
00:27:00I wanted her to respond.
00:27:01I wanted her to say effusive thanks.
00:27:04And when she didn't do that, I lost it.
00:27:07So who was being judgmental and hard to please?
00:27:11Me.
00:27:12And then the third turnaround, I was being,
00:27:16my mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
00:27:18I am being too judgmental and hard to please towards myself.
00:27:21That really what was happening,
00:27:22this actually turned out to be the most true,
00:27:24even though I did not want to accept it at all,
00:27:27was that when the flowers didn't arrive
00:27:28exactly the way I wanted them to,
00:27:30I took that as a statement on my competency,
00:27:34that I had done something wrong, that I messed up.
00:27:37So really I was being too judgmental
00:27:39and hard to please towards myself.
00:27:41Now, when you take out those four beliefs,
00:27:43the original belief in these three new ones,
00:27:45those three new ones sounded absolutely ridiculous.
00:27:47I did not want to accept them at first.
00:27:49But that first belief of my mother's too judgmental
00:27:52and hard to please only left me with one option
00:27:55to get through it.
00:27:56She had to change in order for me to be happy.
00:27:58And like with your example around life having to change,
00:28:03that's pretty tough, right?
00:28:05For her to change was not a possibility.
00:28:08Now at least I had other options.
00:28:09So what did I start doing?
00:28:12I started trying on those beliefs for size, for a week.
00:28:15I'm not, I'm going to take that perspective
00:28:19of that I was being too judgmental and hard to please.
00:28:21And all of a sudden, this weight was lifted.
00:28:24Like I didn't have to believe that anymore.
00:28:26I didn't have to have these standards
00:28:27because I didn't even see I was holding myself
00:28:29to those standards.
00:28:30And all of a sudden I did become more patient.
00:28:31I did become nicer to my mom.
00:28:33I was a better, I was more of the person
00:28:35that I wanted to be.
00:28:36And so the way you change these beliefs
00:28:37is you try on a different belief as an experiment.
00:28:41Just try it out for size.
00:28:42You see what happens.
00:28:43And as ridiculous as it feels at first,
00:28:45when you start building more agency,
00:28:47when you start proving to yourself in small steps
00:28:49that, hey, that could also be true,
00:28:52you can choose at some later point to keep that belief
00:28:55or chuck it for yet a new one.
00:28:56- Why does rumination feel productive
00:29:04when it's actually destructive then?
00:29:07What is it that's happening inside of our minds
00:29:09that causes us to want to do that?
00:29:11- Yeah, it's a few things.
00:29:12So one, rumination feels like problem solving.
00:29:16But it's rumination about the past, right?
00:29:18Rumination comes from what cows do to their cud, right?
00:29:20They ruminate.
00:29:21They chew, chew, chew on a problem endlessly.
00:29:24And oftentimes that can feel productive
00:29:26'cause it feels like we're putting time
00:29:27and attention towards something.
00:29:28But when it becomes rumination,
00:29:30when we were talking about the same thing again and again,
00:29:32we see this all the time
00:29:32when people think about their past, right?
00:29:34Rumination is always about something that has happened
00:29:35in the past.
00:29:36It moves from constructive problem solving
00:29:40into many times an escape from reality.
00:29:43That if I'm constantly thinking of a problem,
00:29:45I don't have to do what's currently in front of me, right?
00:29:47That it's something that almost becomes a pacifier in a way.
00:29:51So a very practical solution, what I've started to do,
00:29:53which also sounds nuts at first,
00:29:56is I've actually started planning time to worry.
00:29:59So now my brain doesn't have to ruminate about the problem.
00:30:03It doesn't have to ruminate just as much about
00:30:04when will I have time to think about and solve this problem?
00:30:08Because now I have time in my calendar for worry.
00:30:10Now here's what happens nine times out of 10.
00:30:12I'll write down, here's what I need to worry about.
00:30:15Very, very important thing.
00:30:16I keep ruminating in my head about this thing
00:30:17that I definitely, definitely need to think about.
00:30:19Very, very important, this thing that I messed up on
00:30:21in the past and I need to think about how do I fix it?
00:30:23And then when that worry time comes, nine times out of 10,
00:30:27what the heck was I worrying about?
00:30:28Why did I keep ruminating on it?
00:30:31I didn't need to.
00:30:32In fact, it's something that got crushed under the weight
00:30:35of some other priority.
00:30:38- Yeah, the addiction to venting and rumination is,
00:30:43it feels so satisfying.
00:30:44It's the same as stretching that torn or strained muscle.
00:30:49You just keep on checking, checking, checking.
00:30:53We'll go back to it, we'll go back to it, we'll go back to it.
00:30:55So I have to imagine that rejection and failure
00:31:00when it comes to belief is somewhat of a challenge, right?
00:31:06How do people rebuild belief after repeated failures?
00:31:10- Yeah.
00:31:12So if you are failing, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:31:18What I want to change in my life,
00:31:25when I hope I can help with others,
00:31:28is to give them more persistence
00:31:30because we know that persistence is the defining factor.
00:31:32You've met lots and lots of successful people in your life.
00:31:34I've interviewed billionaires for this book.
00:31:36I've interviewed people who are broke for this book.
00:31:38And what I discovered was,
00:31:39is that unsuccessful people are not those that fail more.
00:31:44Unsuccessful people are those who fail less.
00:31:47Successful people fail more.
00:31:49It's the billionaire who tried again
00:31:51and again and again and again until they hit a bit.
00:31:54They do more of these experiments.
00:31:55They have more shots on goal.
00:31:57And so that turns out to be a defining trait,
00:31:59that persistence.
00:32:00There's a wonderful study that really blew my mind,
00:32:03this Kurt Richter study back in the 1950s
00:32:05where he took these rats
00:32:07and he put these rats in two cylinders of water
00:32:10and they were filled about halfway full.
00:32:12And he took these rats, he put them in a cylinder of water
00:32:15and he stood there with a timer
00:32:17to see how long the rats would swim for.
00:32:19It turns out, in case you were curious,
00:32:21a wild rat can swim in a cylinder of water
00:32:23for about 15 minutes before it gives up and dies.
00:32:25Very nice.
00:32:27Then he wanted to do another study.
00:32:28He did a follow-up study.
00:32:29By the way, you can't do these kind
00:32:30of unethical studies anymore,
00:32:31but they did it so we can learn from it.
00:32:34Then he took a new batch of wild rats
00:32:37and he put them in the cylinder of water
00:32:39and he watched them swim, swim, swim for about 15 minutes.
00:32:42And right before he knew they would give up
00:32:44and sink under the water, he reached in, pulled out the rat,
00:32:48dried it off, let it catch its breath for a minute
00:32:51and plunk back into the cylinder it went.
00:32:53And now he wanted to see if he did that a few times
00:32:55and he conditioned the wild rat to know
00:32:58that salvation might be possible, what would happen?
00:33:01Could the rat swim for longer?
00:33:03Now you've read the book.
00:33:04I know you know the answer.
00:33:05But when I ask people how much longer did the rat swim for,
00:33:09people say maybe double, okay, maybe triple, right?
00:33:12Maybe four times longer.
00:33:13Wouldn't that be amazing if the rat went from 15 minutes
00:33:14to 60 minutes, an hour?
00:33:16Think about that, right?
00:33:17If you're running a marathon
00:33:18and now you have four times the endurance,
00:33:20if you're working on that hard task,
00:33:21if you're, whatever that challenge is,
00:33:23you can sustain four times longer, that'd blow your mind.
00:33:26That'd be amazing.
00:33:26What kind of crazy intervention would that be?
00:33:28Well, the rats didn't swim for 60 minutes.
00:33:31They ended up swimming for 60 hours.
00:33:34They swam for 240 times longer.
00:33:38And that ability was in them the whole time
00:33:41because their bodies didn't change.
00:33:43The experiment didn't change.
00:33:45What changed was, we think,
00:33:46we can't ask these rats what they believed.
00:33:48We think that something must have changed in their minds.
00:33:50The fact that they saw that hope and salvation were possible
00:33:53kept them persisting, persisting, persisting.
00:33:56And so it all of a sudden became unlocked
00:33:58because of a belief.
00:33:59They believed that salvation maybe might be possible.
00:34:02And so the goal here is to realize
00:34:04the practical application of this
00:34:06is not to quit at the 15-minute mark.
00:34:09That for the vast majority of us, myself included,
00:34:11when it gets uncomfortable, when it gets difficult,
00:34:14when it gets painful, that's our limit.
00:34:16But your limit is so much further than you actually think.
00:34:20So the most important thing
00:34:21is to quit when it's the right time.
00:34:24Quitting is not wrong.
00:34:25There's nothing wrong with quitting.
00:34:27Quitting too soon is a destruction of human capital.
00:34:30That's what we have to prevent.
00:34:32Quitting too soon, I've quit many things.
00:34:34I've quit relationships, I've quit businesses,
00:34:35I've quit all kinds of things.
00:34:36It's not that quitting is wrong.
00:34:38It's quitting when it's too soon that's the problem.
00:34:40So in one of those criteria for when not to quit
00:34:44is when it hurts, right?
00:34:46That pain is just a signal.
00:34:48Remember we talked about 11 million bits
00:34:49versus 50 bits of information.
00:34:52Those pain signals, that's just information.
00:34:54That's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:34:55So if we can disconnect the pain from the suffering,
00:34:57the interpretation of that pain,
00:34:59and only quit when it's time.
00:35:01So for example, one of the criteria
00:35:03for when is it a good time to quit
00:35:05is not when you're failing.
00:35:06That is a bad reason to quit a task.
00:35:08The failing is not the right reason.
00:35:10It's when you stop learning.
00:35:13And if the failures are teaching you something, keep going.
00:35:16That's not necessarily, there's two other criteria
00:35:18about when is the proper time to quit.
00:35:20But failure itself, in and of itself,
00:35:21is not necessarily the right criteria for when to quit.
00:35:24- What are the other criteria?
00:35:26- The other two criteria, number one,
00:35:28is you have to meet a checkpoint.
00:35:30So most people don't set checkpoints, they set deadlines.
00:35:35And that's not what we're talking about.
00:35:36We're not talking about a deadline.
00:35:37We're talking about, a checkpoint is when I say,
00:35:38I will endure this suffering for a fixed period of time.
00:35:42Now why do we do that?
00:35:43Because if we don't do that,
00:35:44as soon as it gets uncomfortable,
00:35:46we're going to interpret the pain as suffering
00:35:48and we're gonna wanna quit.
00:35:50Instead when we say, I'm gonna try this perspective, right?
00:35:53I'm gonna try this crazy view of my mom,
00:35:55like I was describing earlier,
00:35:56or this crazy view of my life,
00:35:58that life is not for ticking off tasks.
00:36:00Okay, doesn't sound right.
00:36:02I don't agree.
00:36:02Maybe it's not true.
00:36:03But I'm gonna try it for one week, 30 days, whatever.
00:36:06You make up the number.
00:36:07And I'm not gonna stop until I hit that checkpoint.
00:36:10Then at that checkpoint, I can say,
00:36:12okay, let me take a step back.
00:36:15Would I continue this experiment past that checkpoint
00:36:19if I were to start today?
00:36:20But don't quit until the checkpoint, right?
00:36:22Whatever that hard task might be.
00:36:2430 days of exercise, 30 days of posting YouTube videos,
00:36:2630 days of writing your book, whatever it is,
00:36:28make sure you have that checked.
00:36:29That's criteria number one.
00:36:31Criteria number two is,
00:36:32are you still learning through failure?
00:36:33We talked about that earlier.
00:36:34And then the third and the most important criteria
00:36:37is does persistence make a difference?
00:36:40Many things in life, persistence does not make a difference.
00:36:44If you're in a crappy work culture and it's awful
00:36:48and the people are sucking out your energy
00:36:51and on Sunday evening you are dreading
00:36:54waking up on Monday morning
00:36:55because you know you have to go to work,
00:36:57persistence ain't gonna help.
00:36:58Those people are not gonna suddenly leave
00:37:00just because you stuck around longer, right?
00:37:01You're gonna die by the time those people leave.
00:37:03So persistence is not gonna make a difference.
00:37:04However, when it comes to fitness, for example,
00:37:07you're a jack guy, you know this,
00:37:09you hit plateaus and then if you persist,
00:37:12hey, you'll bust out of that plateau.
00:37:13You'll make progress eventually, right?
00:37:15So there are certain things in life
00:37:17where persistence really does make a difference
00:37:19even if you're not seeing progress.
00:37:20But if you meet those three criteria, that's fine.
00:37:23The most important thing
00:37:24is that you're not quitting too soon.
00:37:25You're not quitting at the 15 minute mark like those rats
00:37:28even when you have 60 hours of potential.
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00:38:28It feels to me like there's a relationship between luck
00:38:31and the rejection thing here
00:38:33that people are always trying to engineer it
00:38:35and some people in life seem to be a little bit more lucky.
00:38:38What did you find out about luck?
00:38:40- Yeah, that luck is not chance.
00:38:43That luck in fact can absolutely be engineered.
00:38:47The most, let's be honest here,
00:38:49the most lucky thing is your birth.
00:38:53That if you are lucky enough to be born
00:38:55in an industrialized democratic country,
00:38:57you won the genetic lottery, as Warren Buffett used to say.
00:39:02Other than that, after you're born,
00:39:05it turns out there's no such thing
00:39:06as particularly lucky people.
00:39:07We see successful people, we say, oh, they just got lucky.
00:39:10And of course, lucky things happen to all kinds of people.
00:39:13But it turns out what's much more important
00:39:15is how they manufacture their luck.
00:39:17We know that entrepreneurs,
00:39:20they have this phenomenon called entrepreneurial alertness
00:39:23where we know that successful entrepreneurs
00:39:25literally see the world differently.
00:39:27They metaphorically see $100 bills all over the floor.
00:39:29And there's actually a wonderful study that showed this.
00:39:33They took two groups of people.
00:39:35One was self-identified pessimists
00:39:37and one were self-identified optimists.
00:39:40And in this study, they asked people to look at a newspaper.
00:39:45And this newspaper was specially designed
00:39:47for this experiment.
00:39:48And the goal of the experiment, they asked them,
00:39:50we want you to count for us
00:39:53how many photos there are in this newspaper.
00:39:56Okay, how many photos do you see in this newspaper?
00:39:58Count as quickly as you can and then tell the proctor
00:40:02and you'll get a monetary prize.
00:40:04Now, people who are self-identified optimists
00:40:07took about 11 seconds to finish this experiment.
00:40:10People who were self-identified pessimists
00:40:12took two and a half minutes.
00:40:14Why, why the difference?
00:40:16Right, that's a huge advantage.
00:40:17What happened?
00:40:18Turns out that on page two of this newspaper
00:40:22was a photo that said there are 48 photos in this newspaper.
00:40:27That's all it said.
00:40:29Then halfway through the paper,
00:40:32it said there are 48 photos in this paper.
00:40:35Collect your prize, okay?
00:40:38Optimistic people saw that.
00:40:40They saw this thing staring in the face.
00:40:42They got up, they said there's 48 pictures in the newspaper
00:40:45and they collected their prize.
00:40:46They walked off in 11 seconds on average.
00:40:48The pessimistic people sat there and said one, two, three,
00:40:51four, they didn't even see the opportunity
00:40:53staring them in the face.
00:40:54They were completely oblivious to it.
00:40:56And so this is a wonderful example
00:40:58of how we don't see what we believe.
00:41:00That's kind of what we think is common knowledge.
00:41:02We see what we believe, we have to see something
00:41:05in order to believe it.
00:41:06Turns out the exact opposite is just as true.
00:41:08That in order to see something, we have to believe it.
00:41:11That's wild.
00:41:14That is so crazy.
00:41:16What--
00:41:17Tube of the iceberg.
00:41:18There's so many of these.
00:41:19What are the ways does this show up in people's lives?
00:41:22All over the place.
00:41:24I mean, we know that people who are on a diet
00:41:26physically see food as larger.
00:41:29They see that people who are afraid of heights
00:41:32see distances as farther away, right?
00:41:35So back to this keyhole of attention,
00:41:38that when we are forced to see reality
00:41:40through this itsy bitsy keyhole of reality,
00:41:44we can't help it, right?
00:41:45That cough religion I talked about earlier, it's crazy.
00:41:47I'll show it to people and they will absolutely swear
00:41:49there is nothing here but squares, right?
00:41:52Whereas you show it to other people
00:41:54and they'll say there's nothing there but circles.
00:41:55And it's completely determined.
00:41:56We think, we don't exactly know why this is happening.
00:41:58We think it's because of where you grow up.
00:42:00That people who grow up in urban environments
00:42:02see sharp edges, right?
00:42:04Buildings and streets, they see sharp edges.
00:42:05These are not natural.
00:42:06The people who grow up, for example,
00:42:08where they did this study that they showed
00:42:09the cough religion to people in sub-Saharan Africa
00:42:13and they see circles.
00:42:14Because that's what they have been conditioned to see.
00:42:16They see organic shapes.
00:42:17They don't see hard edges.
00:42:18And so it absolutely affects time and time again
00:42:21what you are able to see based on your past experience.
00:42:23And of course, we make up problems for many of us
00:42:28where they don't exist, right?
00:42:29That it's no coincidence that this is,
00:42:32I mean, people are gonna think I'm crazy.
00:42:34And when I say this,
00:42:35know that the crazier you think an alternative belief is,
00:42:37the more you should actually explore it, right?
00:42:39Because that's your brain with your belief immune system
00:42:43is trying to keep out foreign antibodies.
00:42:45It's trying to keep out these beliefs you don't like.
00:42:48The fact is the world is getting better.
00:42:50And it's in fact better than it's ever been, right?
00:42:52But the average person, if you say,
00:42:54is this the best time in history?
00:42:55The average person will say, no, it's terrible.
00:42:57We have wars, we have crime, we have this, we have that.
00:42:59Things are terrible and they're getting worse.
00:43:02Well, that's not true.
00:43:03And if you don't believe me,
00:43:04read this wonderful book by Hans Rosling, "Factfulness,"
00:43:07where he interviewed university professors
00:43:09and he gave them an exam about the state of the world,
00:43:12the state of all the things we care about,
00:43:13the state of education, the state of the environment,
00:43:15the state of female empowerment, the state of democracy.
00:43:18These professors on this exam did worse
00:43:22than if monkeys would have taken this test.
00:43:25They did worse than chance on a realistic portrayal
00:43:29of how the world is
00:43:30because of this negativity bias that we all have,
00:43:34because of these existing beliefs
00:43:35that we seek to confirm time and time again.
00:43:36So if you are looking for negativity,
00:43:38if you believe that the world is getting worse,
00:43:41you're gonna see all the ways the world is getting worse.
00:43:42You're gonna tune into the media
00:43:43that does nothing but reinforce that fact
00:43:45because if it bleeds, it leads.
00:43:47You're gonna see all the crime stories, the hatred,
00:43:48the animosity, the wars,
00:43:50because that's what you're turning into.
00:43:52That's what you're paying attention to.
00:43:54I'll give you one more quick study that I love,
00:43:56is the Dartmouth scar study,
00:43:59where they took women and they said,
00:44:02we're gonna do a study on how people treat those
00:44:05with facial disfigurements.
00:44:07We wanna see how people are treated differently,
00:44:09how they are discriminated against.
00:44:11So we're gonna put this fake scar on your face
00:44:13and we're gonna put you in a room with somebody else,
00:44:15the person we're doing the study on,
00:44:18and we want you to report how you're treated
00:44:20with this facial scar.
00:44:21And they made this very realistic,
00:44:23one of the ones that you would see in a horror film,
00:44:25this huge gash on their face.
00:44:27And they said, okay, now you're gonna walk into this room
00:44:29and we want you to take careful notes
00:44:30on how people treated you when you had a conversation.
00:44:33Except, wait, wait, wait,
00:44:34come back here for a quick second.
00:44:35Before you go into the room, let me just do a quick touch-up.
00:44:38And what these women didn't know in the study
00:44:40is that they completely removed the scar.
00:44:42Now, the women didn't know that.
00:44:43They saw the scar in the mirror,
00:44:44but then when they did the touch-up and removed the scar,
00:44:46they didn't know that the scar didn't exist.
00:44:49It wasn't there.
00:44:50And yet, these women in the study reported
00:44:53that they were stared at, that they were discriminated against,
00:44:56that the people they were talking to seemed disgusted
00:44:59and averted their eyes many times,
00:45:00and they felt very uncomfortable,
00:45:02all for a scar that didn't even exist.
00:45:05It wasn't even there.
00:45:06Because they expected a response,
00:45:08and when you expect something to occur, you will see it.
00:45:11- It's like living in a simulation.
00:45:14It's like we create a simulation of the world
00:45:17and kind of disregard what the actual world is showing to us.
00:45:23- That's right.
00:45:24Now, we don't have to, right?
00:45:24So that through this consistent practice
00:45:26of making ourselves see the world differently,
00:45:30we hopefully can see truth.
00:45:31I mean, how, isn't it crazy how,
00:45:33at least in many cultures, not all cultures,
00:45:37disagreement is seen as rude, right?
00:45:40That like when someone disagrees with you,
00:45:42they're kind of, you don't like that person, right?
00:45:44When someone challenges your feelings, ugh,
00:45:46that creates a little icky feeling.
00:45:47Or if someone does change their perspective,
00:45:50they're called a flip-flopper.
00:45:53Is that not the stupidest thing ever?
00:45:54I mean, now, that's become my love language.
00:45:57Like, if you can change my mind about something,
00:45:59can you think of a better gift?
00:46:00Like, I was lying to myself about reality,
00:46:04about myself, about my relationship,
00:46:05and now you've helped me see the world more clearly?
00:46:08Can you, like, what better gift could there possibly be?
00:46:11- Yeah, it's a strange one that was so attached
00:46:15to our points of view that losing them or letting go of them
00:46:19is kind of tantamount to destruction, at least to the ego.
00:46:23And I'm thinking about beliefs that people have now,
00:46:28which might be useful, or that create success or whatever,
00:46:33but in the future, quietly limit you later on.
00:46:38Beliefs that people hold now that previously were effective
00:46:40or helpful in some sort of a way,
00:46:43but now are holding us back.
00:46:45That kind of blind spot with regards to belief
00:46:49and the tool, where it was then, where we are now,
00:46:53how do you come to think about updating beliefs over time
00:46:56in that sort of a way?
00:46:58- Yeah, where do we begin?
00:46:59I think one of the challenges that I think
00:47:02is becoming more and more prevalent
00:47:04is that we have these cultural nocebos.
00:47:07So, placebos come from the Latin "I will heal."
00:47:11Nocebos come from "I will hurt."
00:47:13And it turns out these nocebo effects are contagious,
00:47:18that when we tell people that they might be suffering
00:47:21from some kind of malady, it spreads.
00:47:24I'll give you a great example.
00:47:26There was this case in, I think it was Portugal,
00:47:28if I'm not mistaken, where on one particular night,
00:47:31there was this epidemic.
00:47:33The hospital rooms were filling up with young girls
00:47:37with intense intestinal discomfort.
00:47:39They were filling up the ERs.
00:47:42And people thought it was some kind of virus.
00:47:43People thought there was something in the water.
00:47:45Like, what had happened?
00:47:46It was really weird that it only affected
00:47:48girls of a certain age, and nobody knew what it was.
00:47:50Turns out, there was a very popular TV show.
00:47:53I think it was called "Strawberries and Cream."
00:47:55And on that show, the main character, the protagonist,
00:47:59had some kind of similar intestinal malady
00:48:03where she was very sick, and that actually caught on
00:48:06and created this kind of mass nocebo effect.
00:48:09And this goes, we see this repeated again and again.
00:48:12Every few years, somewhere in the world,
00:48:14there'll be some kind of outbreak
00:48:16of some kind of psychosomatic disorder.
00:48:19In the literature, one case that really blew my mind,
00:48:21there was this guy, they call him Mr. A, he was anonymized.
00:48:25And Mr. A had a very difficult breakup with his girlfriend.
00:48:30And he decides that he wants to end his life.
00:48:34So he takes a bottle of pills, opens it up.
00:48:37He takes the entire bottle of pills, swallows everything.
00:48:39And a few minutes later, he changes his mind.
00:48:41He decides he wants to live.
00:48:42So he rushes over to his next-door neighbor.
00:48:44He tells him he took all his pills.
00:48:47Neighbor rushes him to the ER.
00:48:49Mr. A barges through the emergency room,
00:48:52crashes on the floor.
00:48:54He's almost unconscious, and he says,
00:48:55"I took all my pills, I took all my pills, help me."
00:48:58They rush him into the operating room.
00:49:00His blood pressure is dangerously low.
00:49:03His heart rate is plummeting.
00:49:05And they're trying to figure out what did he overdose on?
00:49:07Well, they look at the jar of pills,
00:49:10and all there is on the jar of pills is a number to call.
00:49:13It turns out that Mr. A had been part
00:49:15of a clinical trial for depression.
00:49:17And he took all these pills that he was given in the study.
00:49:21They called the number, and they say,
00:49:23"What is this drug?
00:49:24"What did he just overdose on
00:49:26"so that we can try and resuscitate him?"
00:49:27And again, all the physiological symptoms of overdose,
00:49:30the heart rate, the plunging, blood pressure,
00:49:34all the things that you would expect
00:49:35with an overdose are happening to Mr. A.
00:49:38On the other line, the doctor says,
00:49:40this person took placebos.
00:49:42He did not get the active ingredient.
00:49:45They tell Mr. A this, that he took nothing but placebos.
00:49:48Within 15 minutes, Chris, Mr. A is completely revived.
00:49:53His heart rate is back to normal.
00:49:55His blood pressure is back to normal.
00:49:57And he's fine.
00:49:58He's ready to walk out of the ER.
00:50:00Now, if we can have these incredible physiological effects
00:50:05solely based on our beliefs,
00:50:07solely based on our expectations
00:50:08of what we think will happen in this crazy simulation
00:50:11that's running in our heads,
00:50:12if that can be done to this extent,
00:50:14what does that mean for all the other nocebos in our life?
00:50:19What happens when we assign ourselves all kinds of labels
00:50:22that we keep tossing around?
00:50:23If you open up social media,
00:50:24people are prescribing the hell out of each other
00:50:27with all kinds of maladies
00:50:29that let alone have no actual psychological basis,
00:50:33imposter syndrome.
00:50:33Imposter syndrome is not a thing.
00:50:36It's not in the DSM.
00:50:37There's nothing that makes the imposter syndrome.
00:50:39You can't get diagnosed for imposter syndrome,
00:50:41but it sounds so official, people think it's a diagnosis.
00:50:44Well, when you think you have imposter syndrome,
00:50:47guess what?
00:50:48Now you have imposter syndrome.
00:50:49You've manufactured it.
00:50:50Whether it's true or not, that's not what I'm arguing about.
00:50:53What I'm arguing about is does it serve you?
00:50:56I'm not a morning person.
00:50:58I'm having a senior moment.
00:51:00I'm no good at public speaking.
00:51:03I'm whatever.
00:51:05When we create this identity, that's the problem,
00:51:08out of a label, that label becomes our limit.
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00:52:24That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.
00:52:30The example that you used with the mouse,
00:52:32it believed that it was going to be saved.
00:52:36I have to assume that in order to work out
00:52:38how long a mouse swims for before it drowns,
00:52:39you have to let it drown.
00:52:40So in a lot of these studies, it actually didn't get saved.
00:52:43So it had an erroneous belief,
00:52:44and that erroneous belief--
00:52:45- But it was a new group of rats.
00:52:47- Yes, it lifted the ceiling on when the rat
00:52:51was going to be able to swim for.
00:52:54- Right.
00:52:55- So you can spiral belief up toward a version of you
00:52:59that you want, one that broadly gets better outcomes in life,
00:53:03but you can also spiral it down,
00:53:05which is I took sugar pills
00:53:07and now I think I'm having a heart attack
00:53:09and my brain's going to explode.
00:53:12- Right.
00:53:13- In both situations, the interpretation and the belief
00:53:18is causing an effect within the person.
00:53:21- Right.
00:53:22- And both are very powerful.
00:53:24I think when it comes to something like imposter syndrome
00:53:27or concerns about public speaking, sexual performance, right?
00:53:32Some guy that gets real nervous before he gets into,
00:53:35I think that's like psychosomatic mental impact
00:53:40on guys struggling to get it up
00:53:42is a vicious spiral that happens to dudes
00:53:45and then they can't get out of it.
00:53:46They're worried about it and this thing's going to happen.
00:53:48It goes all the way down.
00:53:49- Yeah.
00:53:50Insomnia, depression, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, IBS.
00:53:54Many of these things are highly responsive to both nocebo
00:53:57and placebo effects, but sorry, I interrupted you, continue.
00:54:00- Just someone is on the spiral going in the wrong direction.
00:54:03How do they intervene?
00:54:06How do they intervene and reverse that direction
00:54:09to go back in the other?
00:54:10Because one of the things that I imagine a lot of people think
00:54:13is, oh God, well, yeah, there's some contributing elements
00:54:18that are grounded in reality,
00:54:19but much of this is filtered through my perception,
00:54:22my expectations, my own simulation, my beliefs.
00:54:25What a piece of shit am I that I can't fix?
00:54:29It's all on me.
00:54:31I'm causing this problem.
00:54:32This means I'm even worse than I thought I was.
00:54:35So I think getting practical about, okay,
00:54:38someone feels that they have one of these beliefs
00:54:40and it is spiraling in the wrong direction.
00:54:42It's their erectile dysfunction or inability
00:54:44to wake up on a morning or it's their mood
00:54:46or it's their whatever.
00:54:48- Yeah.
00:54:50- Take me through the steps that someone goes through
00:54:52to halt the downward spiral
00:54:54and turn it into one that works for them.
00:54:56- Absolutely.
00:54:57So this comes a lot from the research around chronic pain
00:55:00and the medical community is really in the middle
00:55:04of doing a 180 on how to approach pain.
00:55:07And there's this new technique that's been quite validated
00:55:11called pain reprocessing therapy.
00:55:13And the reason I like to talk about this extreme version
00:55:16is because if we can do it in the most extreme versions,
00:55:19when people are suffering through chronic pain,
00:55:21like the kind of debilitating pain
00:55:23that comes from these type of conditions,
00:55:26then we can also do it for more minor maladies
00:55:29like erectile dysfunction or insomnia or anxiety, right?
00:55:32So that's why I like to talk about those more extreme cases.
00:55:35But the way pain reprocessing therapy works
00:55:39starts by understanding
00:55:42that pain is not the same as suffering, okay?
00:55:45Pain is always real.
00:55:47Even though all pain is in the brain,
00:55:49all pain is in the brain.
00:55:50Where else could pain live?
00:55:51Pain is not in your arm, it's not in your back.
00:55:53All pain receptors lead to an interpretation in your brain.
00:55:58But pain is nothing more than signal.
00:56:01Pain does not necessarily mean that anything is broken
00:56:04because there's a difference between a sickness
00:56:06and an illness.
00:56:07Sickness is in the body, illness is in the mind.
00:56:10So for many conditions, there is something broken,
00:56:13some kind of malady that has to do with sickness,
00:56:17something in the body.
00:56:18You can be sick without being ill
00:56:19and you can also be ill without being sick.
00:56:20How can that happen?
00:56:21If you have cancer, you know we all have tiny cancer cells,
00:56:24but let's say you have some kind of malignant tumor
00:56:25but you haven't, you don't know you have it yet.
00:56:28God forbid that this should happen to you, but it does.
00:56:31You can be sick but not realize that you have any symptoms
00:56:34so you're not ill.
00:56:35Conversely, and what is very, very common,
00:56:37in fact it accounts for about 80% of our healthcare expenses,
00:56:40is the symptoms, the illness which is in the mind, okay?
00:56:45The perception of those symptoms.
00:56:46And many times, for example in the case of chronic pain,
00:56:49which is defined as pain that persists
00:56:50for more than six months with no known physical causes.
00:56:54So the most important thing is to eliminate
00:56:56those possible physical causes.
00:56:57But if you continue to have that--
00:56:58- Oh, okay, so you wouldn't have,
00:57:00or you wouldn't be diagnosed with chronic pain
00:57:02if you had a big bit of wood sticking out of your leg.
00:57:05- Exactly, exactly.
00:57:06We know, okay, that's the cause.
00:57:08Exactly.
00:57:09Although, as a little tangent here,
00:57:12I mean there's cases, where did placebo science
00:57:14first come from?
00:57:15It came from after World War I,
00:57:17when there was reported cases of soldiers
00:57:20dragging their buddy on the battlefield to the medic
00:57:23and saying, "Medic, medic, you need to help my friend.
00:57:24"My friend just got shot.
00:57:26"Help my friend, help my friend."
00:57:27And the medic turns to this guy pulling his buddy
00:57:29and says, "Soldier, you're missing an arm."
00:57:32And the soldier was completely unaware
00:57:34that half their arm had been blown off
00:57:37because of the power of attention.
00:57:39They'd been so focused on their buddy
00:57:40that they didn't pay attention.
00:57:41They turned off that information
00:57:43that was coming to their brain from their conscious mind.
00:57:45Because again, 11 million bits versus 50 bits.
00:57:48So back to this question around chronic pain
00:57:52and how that teaches us, what that teaches all of us
00:57:54about how do we manage changing our beliefs
00:57:58per your question.
00:57:59What pain reprocessing therapy tells us
00:58:02is that neuroplastic pain is the kind of pain
00:58:05that persists even with no physical causes.
00:58:09And the key is shutting off what is called
00:58:13the fear-pain-fear loop.
00:58:14That at the heart of these chronic conditions,
00:58:18which are real, I'm not saying pain is fake.
00:58:21I'm not saying it's your fault.
00:58:22I'm not saying it's in your head.
00:58:23All pain is real.
00:58:24There's no such thing as fake pain.
00:58:26All pain is real.
00:58:27And it is also true that all pain is in your mind.
00:58:30Turns out that the brain has this amazing ability
00:58:34to turn down the pain or turn up the pain dial
00:58:38based on what it thinks is important,
00:58:40based on what it pays attention to.
00:58:43So for example, in the case of hypnocidation,
00:58:46people, and I've seen the tapes,
00:58:48and tens of thousands of people have done this.
00:58:50This guy that I interviewed by the name of Daniel Gistler,
00:58:53the most analytical, no woo woo, no nonsense type of guy.
00:58:57He used to be a commodities trader.
00:58:59This guy went under surgery,
00:59:01and I've seen the video of operation.
00:59:02I wouldn't believe it unless I've seen it.
00:59:04This guy had metal bolts wrenched from his bone,
00:59:09scalpel cutting into his skin with no anesthesia,
00:59:14no general anesthesia, no local anesthesia for 55 minutes.
00:59:17His heart rate didn't increase.
00:59:20His blood pressure stayed level.
00:59:21He did not experience these physical symptoms of pain
00:59:26or the suffering that comes from pain.
00:59:28He didn't experience it because he had learned
00:59:31this amazing ability to focus his mind
00:59:33through the power of beliefs,
00:59:34and so he trained himself to not feel
00:59:36this intense discomfort.
00:59:38Now if we can do that with surgery
00:59:41without requiring anesthesia,
00:59:43we can do that for all kinds of things.
00:59:44On the flip side, by the way.
00:59:46- Having surgery without anesthetic
00:59:48makes your erectile dysfunction feel like limp, actually.
00:59:53(laughing)
00:59:55- But it's because the ED question around
01:00:00can it cause this negative spiral,
01:00:02well, when you think about these chronic conditions
01:00:03like fibromyalgia, that's an exclusionary diagnosis,
01:00:07or chronic pain, or ED, or insomnia, or anxiety.
01:00:10The list goes on and on of these maladies.
01:00:13It turns out that what's at the center of these
01:00:16are this fear-pain-fear loop,
01:00:19that what the conversation sounds like.
01:00:20And by the way, I used to have terrible back pain as well.
01:00:23And the first thing that happened in my mind
01:00:25was every time I would feel back pain,
01:00:27the conventional wisdom is pain means damage.
01:00:30Pain means harm.
01:00:31Well, if it's damaged, if it's broken,
01:00:33how long is it gonna last?
01:00:34Is this always gonna be this way?
01:00:36What if it never gets better?
01:00:37What does that mean for my future?
01:00:38And I start spiraling, and ruminating, and spiraling,
01:00:40and it would drive me crazy.
01:00:41And guess what?
01:00:43It would turn up the pain dial.
01:00:45Because that experience of feeling that fear
01:00:47is incredibly uncomfortable.
01:00:48It creates physiological responses, right?
01:00:50You start sweating, your mouth gets dry,
01:00:53you start, your heart starts palpitating.
01:00:55All these physical sensations feel shittier and shittier,
01:00:58and so your body pays more and more attention
01:01:00thinking it's under threat.
01:01:02So what you have to do, step one,
01:01:06is to realize that your body is not broken.
01:01:09And this is after you've excluded everything, okay?
01:01:11After you've done the tests and looked at
01:01:13and make sure there is nothing physically wrong
01:01:15where the problem is this neuroplastic pain,
01:01:19now you have to convince yourself that you're assuming
01:01:22that the body is not broken.
01:01:24That this is just information.
01:01:26That's all it is, just information.
01:01:28The next thing we do is we stop trying to fix the pain.
01:01:31Part of our problem is that we have this urgency
01:01:35that I must fix this problem because we live in a time
01:01:37where we expect this to happen.
01:01:38By the way, this has never happened before
01:01:40in 200,000 years of human history.
01:01:42You know, like the French kings used to have
01:01:44all kinds of tooth decay and syphilis and all kinds of,
01:01:48they were constantly in severe,
01:01:50what we would think is today severe pain.
01:01:52But people for 200,000 years had this ability
01:01:54to tune out discomfort because it was just information.
01:01:58They didn't walk around constantly moaning and groaning.
01:02:00I'm sure they were in a lot of pain and suffering.
01:02:02But because that was always part of the human condition,
01:02:05it was something that they carried on with, we think.
01:02:08Whereas today, because we live in an age
01:02:09where we have so much modern medicine,
01:02:11we have the ability to turn off a lot of our suffering
01:02:14like a switch when it comes to sickness rather than illness,
01:02:16we become hyper fixated when we think
01:02:18that there's a problem that can't be solved.
01:02:19And we expect it to be urgently addressed
01:02:21and to go away immediately.
01:02:23So step two is to stop trying to fix that pain.
01:02:27And then what you wanna do is to prove that you're safe.
01:02:31Prove that you're safe.
01:02:32And to constantly remind yourself, this isn't danger.
01:02:35This is a pain signal.
01:02:36It's not danger.
01:02:38One of the things that pain reprocessing therapy does
01:02:41is advise people to add lightness.
01:02:42To add some kind of humor.
01:02:45So telling yourself, ah, I see what you're doing
01:02:47there pain response.
01:02:48Not gonna give me this time.
01:02:49I know this is nothing to be worried about.
01:02:51What I used to do when I felt my back pain,
01:02:53and this was pretty bad back pain.
01:02:54I mean, I have to lay on the floor
01:02:55and I followed all the conventional advice
01:02:57of you have to ice.
01:02:59No, you have to warm.
01:03:00No, you have to immobilize.
01:03:01You can't do anything.
01:03:02What I started doing was every time I felt
01:03:03that twinge in my back,
01:03:05I would intentionally do whatever caused that pain 10 times.
01:03:09And again, disclaimer, after I'd known
01:03:11that there was nothing actually physically wrong.
01:03:13It came from an injury originally that I had in the gym.
01:03:15- Yeah, like if you get a splinter in your foot,
01:03:18putting 10 more splinters in your foot
01:03:19isn't gonna take the splinter out.
01:03:20Yep, yep, yep.
01:03:21- Right, exactly, exactly.
01:03:22But after the splinter's out, it's healed.
01:03:24You can't detect any kind of actual physical damage.
01:03:27It was just neuroplastic pain.
01:03:28I had to teach my brain over and over and over again,
01:03:31I'm safe, I'm safe, I'm safe.
01:03:33Pain is just a signal.
01:03:34I'm not in danger.
01:03:36And then over time, lo and behold, it went away.
01:03:38- And the same, I imagine, would be true
01:03:41for people with chronic fatigue, ME/CFS.
01:03:45Again, assuming that you've not got underlying
01:03:48whatever that's going on.
01:03:48I feel like we need to do this throat clearing
01:03:50so it doesn't sound like fucking victim blaming
01:03:52all of the people who--
01:03:52- Right, right.
01:03:54- Let's say that you've, good example.
01:03:56Me and half of Austin apparently live in houses
01:03:59that have got toxic molds.
01:04:00Toxic mold is particularly brutal for certain people
01:04:03with a genetic susceptibility to it
01:04:05and it causes them to be really tired.
01:04:06You get out of the houses, you follow a shoemaker protocol,
01:04:09you detox all of the mold or most of the mold from you.
01:04:11And now, oh, hey, the system is more functional,
01:04:15but my expected work capacity hasn't caught up
01:04:21to where my real gas tank is.
01:04:24And that re-patterning of the pain, of the fatigue,
01:04:29of the lack of fatigue, the inability to sleep.
01:04:33I'm not a good sleeper.
01:04:34I wake up lots of times throughout the night.
01:04:37I need to go to the bathroom all of the time.
01:04:40That's kind of a real common one
01:04:43for people who just think I need to wake up
01:04:45and go to the bathroom two or three times
01:04:46throughout the night, even if I haven't had that much to drink,
01:04:49even if I know that when I go to the bathroom,
01:04:51oh, it's a problem, it's a prostate, it's a whatever.
01:04:53It's like, well, you know,
01:04:54if you've had all of the things checked, it's not.
01:04:57- It could just, yeah, that's exactly right.
01:04:59I mean, one of the things that I've adopted
01:05:01is these mantras, these prayers that,
01:05:04maybe they're not prayers
01:05:05'cause they don't have a religious connotation,
01:05:07but I have many mantras that I repeat throughout the day.
01:05:09And I used to have terrible insomnia and I tried everything.
01:05:11I tried the pills, I tried all kinds of things.
01:05:15And then, as I was doing this research
01:05:18around the power of the mind and beliefs
01:05:20to change our bodies,
01:05:21that your beliefs really do become your biology,
01:05:24and I'm sorry it took me so long.
01:05:26I'm 48 now, but it took me a long time to realize this.
01:05:29I tried to eliminate the fear.
01:05:32And when you eliminate the fear,
01:05:34you also eliminate the suffering.
01:05:36So my mantra, when I wake up at 2 a.m.
01:05:39and I start ruminating about, oh my gosh,
01:05:43if I don't get to sleep soon,
01:05:44I'm gonna have an awful day tomorrow
01:05:46and I've got this big interview with Chris
01:05:47and what if I don't do well and I better get to sleep
01:05:50and I can't get to sleep.
01:05:50Well, it turns out the number one cause of insomnia
01:05:53is worrying about insomnia.
01:05:55That is the number one cause of insomnia.
01:05:57And so we take medication to knock us out,
01:06:00so we stop worrying.
01:06:01But really, I found the most effective thing I ever did
01:06:05was to replace the fear with a new belief.
01:06:07That new belief is, and this is what I literally say
01:06:10to myself every time I wake up at 2 a.m.,
01:06:13I close my eyes and I repeat to myself
01:06:16and I take a deep breath on the way in,
01:06:17I say it, and then I say it again on the way out.
01:06:20I say, as I take a deep breath, I say,
01:06:22the body gets what the body needs if you let it.
01:06:25The body gets what the body needs if you let it.
01:06:27So that's a deep breath in, a deep breath out.
01:06:30And what I'm doing is reminding myself that, you know what,
01:06:33if I don't get a good night's sleep tonight,
01:06:35my body will make up for it the next night, right?
01:06:38That if I let it, now the biggest problem is,
01:06:40why do I say if you let it?
01:06:42'Cause if you went to bed at 1 a.m.
01:06:44and you need to get up at six, that's on you, right?
01:06:46You didn't plan properly.
01:06:48But if you let it, if you give your body
01:06:51the time it needs to rest,
01:06:52it's gonna rest or it doesn't need it.
01:06:54And if I stay up for an hour or so
01:06:57and I read my Kindle in bed, that's okay too.
01:06:59That's fine, that there's nothing that's wrong with it,
01:07:01'cause it means the next night,
01:07:02I probably will get to sleep.
01:07:03So repeating those simple mantras,
01:07:05and I read the Kindle after I've tried that mantra,
01:07:07and if it doesn't work, then I read the Kindle.
01:07:08That works 99% of the time.
01:07:10I always have a boring book on my Kindle, by the way,
01:07:11which is amazing, 'cause it scrambles that rumination cycle,
01:07:14and then you can finally get back to sleep.
01:07:16- We'll get back to talking in just one second,
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01:08:19Talk to me about the neuroscience of agency
01:08:21because we're talking about an interesting balance here.
01:08:25One element is almost a letting go.
01:08:29It's my body will give me what it needs if I let it.
01:08:33So that's a relinquishing of the need to be the person
01:08:38that's pushing specifically around something like sleep, right?
01:08:42Or I don't need to check on the pain.
01:08:45But at the same time, we know that agency is the thing
01:08:49that most people desire.
01:08:52It's one of the top three,
01:08:53even if nobody knows what it means,
01:08:55I think it's what they want, right?
01:08:57They want the independence, action,
01:08:59the ability to happen to life
01:09:00as opposed to let life happen to them.
01:09:02Talk to me about neuroscience of agency.
01:09:06- Yeah, so agency is what I call the third power of belief,
01:09:09that beliefs can change not only what you see,
01:09:11we talked about how beliefs shape your vision of reality,
01:09:14they shape how you feel internally,
01:09:16whether it's chronic pain,
01:09:18whether it's going through surgery without anesthesia,
01:09:21and most importantly, beliefs change what you do.
01:09:24Now it changes what you do
01:09:25based on what you think is possible for you to do.
01:09:28And so not only can you have these nocebo effects
01:09:31that we talked about earlier,
01:09:31just as a quick recap of how your labels
01:09:34can become your limits and make you less agentic
01:09:38because you think, well, that's impossible, I can't do it.
01:09:41Certain beliefs allow you to be more agentic.
01:09:45So for example, I interviewed this guy
01:09:49by the name of David Fajenbaum,
01:09:50who had this incurable disease.
01:09:54And he tells me how a nurse came in and told him,
01:09:59"Hey, guess what?
01:10:01"You had this disease, I've never ever heard of it,
01:10:03"but at least it's not cancer."
01:10:04And then he does a Google search
01:10:05and he figures out actually the mortality rate
01:10:07is even worse than cancer for this disease that he has.
01:10:09- Oh God, you've got super cancer.
01:10:11- You've got super cancer, exactly.
01:10:13And so he finds the one expert in the world
01:10:16who knows this disease backwards and forwards.
01:10:18- Okay, agency. - And he told me that he,
01:10:20yeah, exactly, well, kind of.
01:10:23He tells me about how he had this Santa Claus theory
01:10:26that his whole life he thought,
01:10:27well, if I just find the right person to send my wish into,
01:10:30just like Santa Claus, well, surely they'll have a solution.
01:10:33So this doctor recommends a medication, does not work.
01:10:36And then he asked the doctor,
01:10:39well, okay, what's the next course of treatment?
01:10:41Nothing.
01:10:42Well, but what's the research that's being done about this?
01:10:45There is no more research.
01:10:46Says, well, what are next steps?
01:10:47There are no more next steps.
01:10:49And so his whole Santa Claus theory
01:10:50that someone's gonna save him never materialized.
01:10:54And he decides that night that he has to do something.
01:10:57And he spends the next several years
01:11:00combing through all the research he can possibly find,
01:11:04throws away this theory
01:11:05that someone's gonna come and save me.
01:11:07And he does everything he possibly can.
01:11:09It turns out he finds a medication
01:11:11that has been already approved for years
01:11:14that's sitting on the shelf
01:11:15that nobody tried for his condition.
01:11:17And it saves his life.
01:11:19Now he actually has a foundation that does this through AI
01:11:21and has saved countless thousands of people
01:11:24through a similar methodology.
01:11:25Now, what David demonstrated was understanding
01:11:28that you have a lot more agency that you think.
01:11:31Then most of us kind of accept,
01:11:33well, a good patient should just take lessons from the doctor.
01:11:36They should do what the doctor says.
01:11:37You shouldn't do your own research
01:11:38because we're the experts.
01:11:40Well, David said BS and he tried to do his own research.
01:11:43And he tried his own experimentations
01:11:44even when he wasn't sure if they would work.
01:11:46So big picture, we have a lot more agency than we think.
01:11:51And so there's two kinds of agency.
01:11:53We call this an internal locus of control
01:11:55versus an external locus of control.
01:11:57And so people kind of know this research already
01:12:00that external locus of control is about thinking
01:12:03that your life is controlled by things outside of you.
01:12:06Internal locus of control means you think
01:12:08you can affect change in the world.
01:12:09Now, what's interesting about this
01:12:12is that even when the cards are stacked against you,
01:12:15even when you have all the right in the world
01:12:19to say that things aren't going well
01:12:21and external factors are controlling you,
01:12:25you still are better off
01:12:27than having an internal locus of control.
01:12:29People with an internal locus of control live longer,
01:12:31they have more friends, they contribute more
01:12:33to the community, they're happier,
01:12:34they have fewer mental health issues.
01:12:36Internal locus of control seems to be protective
01:12:39in so many different ways
01:12:41even when the cards are stacked against you.
01:12:42The only case where it's not helpful
01:12:44to have an internal locus of control
01:12:46is when you judge other people.
01:12:47So for yourself, you want to have an internal locus of control.
01:12:52For others, you want to try and give them the grace
01:12:56of thinking, well, they must be operating
01:12:58under circumstances that they can't control.
01:13:01That turns out to be a much healthier point of view.
01:13:05- Why does the brain default to helplessness then?
01:13:07If helpfulness and agency is so great,
01:13:12why is that not a set point?
01:13:15- Yeah, well, this is what you just said
01:13:17is actually the exact opposite
01:13:19of what everybody thought for 50 years in psychology
01:13:23because we thought that helplessness was learned.
01:13:25We call it learned helplessness.
01:13:27Seligman and Meyer did these studies with dogs
01:13:29and they could show that you could train dogs
01:13:31to give up, that they would learn helplessness,
01:13:34that we were born hopeful
01:13:36and then life beats us down and we give up.
01:13:38Just a couple of years ago,
01:13:40these same researchers completely changed their mind.
01:13:43- I saw this study, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:13:47- Oops.
01:13:48- Sorry, just half a century of learned helplessness
01:13:52being in the lexicon.
01:13:53Who was it?
01:13:54It was Scott Barry Kaufman on his pod
01:13:56that first talked about this and learned hopefulness.
01:14:00- Yes, exactly. - Dude, fucking wild.
01:14:03- Wild, wild, because we built entire philosophies
01:14:07about why the poor are poor
01:14:09and why these conditions lead to,
01:14:11built out of this research that everybody thought was true.
01:14:15Well, it turns out that we don't learn helplessness.
01:14:19That's our default state.
01:14:21I mean, if you think about it,
01:14:22that's how we come out of the womb.
01:14:23For human beings, we are absolutely defenseless.
01:14:26We require our parents to take care of us.
01:14:30A baby doesn't have claws, doesn't have teeth,
01:14:32can't run away, we need someone to take care of us.
01:14:34So maybe what we think,
01:14:36perhaps the evolutionary adaptation,
01:14:38is that you want, when a baby is in danger,
01:14:40you want a baby to be passive and helpless
01:14:42so that they can be taken care of, perhaps,
01:14:45and that there is safety in passivity
01:14:47because safety is what you know, right?
01:14:50So there is this fight, flight, or freeze response,
01:14:53and so that freeze response is that passivity response.
01:14:57What that means, however, is that we have to learn hope.
01:15:00We have to learn hope.
01:15:03I mean, it would kind of make sense
01:15:04that in a tribal environment,
01:15:06you almost don't want people to be too radical.
01:15:08Like, if you think, you know,
01:15:09if you don't want too many people to challenge
01:15:11the tribe chief and to, you know,
01:15:13think that they're, that they can change things up,
01:15:16you kind of want stability in a society,
01:15:17so maybe that's where that comes from.
01:15:19I don't really know, I'm not an evolutionary psychologist.
01:15:21But what we do know is that there is a circuit in the brain,
01:15:24that Seligman called the hope circuit,
01:15:26that is how we learn our agency,
01:15:30that we have to learn through tiny steps
01:15:32what is possible, what we can do.
01:15:33But that must be, in fact, taught.
01:15:35- George, my housemate, is currently writing his book,
01:15:40which is all about agency.
01:15:41And the idea that,
01:15:49the idea that you don't always,
01:15:53you're not always in control,
01:15:54but you can believe that you are,
01:15:56to me, like, 'cause I'm just hearing him
01:15:57unload these stories over and over again.
01:15:59There's another one from Johan Hari.
01:16:03Did you look at that study of the pain wand?
01:16:07Was it in the 1800s?
01:16:09So there was a special wand where it was wood wrapped in metal
01:16:13with wires around it and a special electricity box.
01:16:16- Oh, the mesmerism stuff.
01:16:18Is that what this is?
01:16:19And they'd wave it over people
01:16:20and then they slowly took away one element of the wand
01:16:25and they took away, they unplugged the electricity,
01:16:27then they took away the box, then they took away the wires,
01:16:29then they took away the metal, then they took away the wood.
01:16:31And it was just a guy waving his hand over patients.
01:16:34And it had the same effect.
01:16:37- Yeah, yeah.
01:16:38I mean, I used to poo poo this stuff
01:16:39and they go, "This is crazy.
01:16:40"These are stupid people, they're gullible."
01:16:43I don't say that stuff anymore.
01:16:44Because if it works and it's cheap
01:16:48and it's not hurting anybody, maybe it's okay.
01:16:51Maybe those placebo pills that are on sale on Amazon
01:16:53are not such a bad idea.
01:16:54I'll give you another one
01:16:55about a non-pharmaceutical one that blew my mind.
01:16:56Do you know the story of Serena Williams at Wimbledon
01:16:59and her coach, Patrick?
01:17:01Have you heard about this one?
01:17:01- No, no.
01:17:03- So Serena Williams was not doing well at Wimbledon.
01:17:08She was gonna lose.
01:17:09And her coach comes up to her and he says,
01:17:13"I have some amazing news for you.
01:17:15"When you rush the net, you make 80% of the points."
01:17:19She says, "What are you talking about?
01:17:21"I suck at the net."
01:17:23He's like, "Wait, look, hey, the stats don't lie.
01:17:26"The stats said that when you rush the net,
01:17:29"you make 80% of the points."
01:17:30Now, what he had noticed is that she was lying to herself.
01:17:34She was already delusional.
01:17:36Her confidence was broken because she wasn't doing well.
01:17:38And she wasn't doing what she had to do.
01:17:40And so she was telling a story in her head.
01:17:42She had a limiting belief that I shouldn't rush the net.
01:17:46So he knows this.
01:17:47He can see it in his player.
01:17:49And he tells her what turns out to be 100% fabrication.
01:17:54It's not true.
01:17:55She is not scoring 80% of the points
01:17:58when she rushes the net.
01:18:00He tells her this.
01:18:01He says, "Can't lie with the stats."
01:18:03She then goes on to start rushing the net
01:18:05and turns out wins Wimbledon.
01:18:08So he likes to say, he has this score where he says,
01:18:10"You see, sometimes the lies can become reality."
01:18:13And so that's the real takeaway here.
01:18:15Beliefs are tools, not truths.
01:18:17Is it true that she wasn't good at rushing the net?
01:18:22Kinda, sorta, not really.
01:18:23Is it a fact?
01:18:24No, it's a belief.
01:18:25Is it true that she's good at rushing the net
01:18:27and scoring points?
01:18:28Kinda, sorta, it's a belief.
01:18:30Neither are facts.
01:18:30Neither are laws of physics.
01:18:32So based on what you believe,
01:18:33you can turn that belief into reality.
01:18:35Not in a metaphysical way.
01:18:36There's no quantum whatever.
01:18:39It's all about motivation.
01:18:40It's all about what those behaviors get us to actually do.
01:18:43- It feels like a lot of what...
01:18:45One of the big mechanisms for humans here is potential
01:18:50and understanding how much of our total capacity
01:18:54we're currently tapping into or not.
01:18:56I am not a morning person.
01:18:59My potential for getting up on a morning is limited.
01:19:03Well, yeah, there's circadian rhythms
01:19:07and there tend to be set points.
01:19:08Some people are morning locks
01:19:09and some people are night owls and so on and so forth.
01:19:12But your potential to do this is largely determined.
01:19:17So this is a good way to think about it.
01:19:19There is a window.
01:19:21This window is determined by physical reality.
01:19:24It's determined by how much training you've done.
01:19:25It's determined by how fit you are.
01:19:27It's determined by your reaction time or your height
01:19:29or your genetics or whatever it might be, right?
01:19:31This is the window.
01:19:33This is not within your belief's control.
01:19:36Within this window is almost exclusively
01:19:39within your belief's control.
01:19:41And that two-step model, I think, of potential
01:19:45and how it works really explains...
01:19:48People get it confused.
01:19:50They think that their window is way narrower
01:19:53than it actually is and way lower than it actually is.
01:19:55What they don't realize is they're just looking
01:19:57at a little microcosm sliver of what is a much wider window.
01:20:01And there is probably a lot more upside
01:20:02than that's available to them.
01:20:04- What was that story about the dude with the snake?
01:20:08What was that one?
01:20:09Was he in Australia or New Zealand?
01:20:11- Oh, Mortimer?
01:20:14Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.
01:20:17Did I put that in the book?
01:20:19I don't think that made it into...
01:20:20- No, no, no, no, but I've heard you talk about it
01:20:22and I think that it makes a lot of sense here too.
01:20:24- Yeah, oh, that's a good one actually.
01:20:26Now that I think about it,
01:20:27back to the talk around about nocebos.
01:20:29That's a good one, yeah.
01:20:30So this guy is a pain researcher.
01:20:32Mortimer, I think his last name is Gosley.
01:20:34I can't remember, Australian guy.
01:20:36He goes to the Outback, he's on a camping trip,
01:20:38and he gets bitten by one of the most deadly snakes
01:20:44in the Outback.
01:20:45There's all kinds of venomous snakes.
01:20:45He gets bit by one of them,
01:20:47rush to the hospital, barely survives.
01:20:49He's in days and days of excruciating pain.
01:20:52I think they had to put him in a coma.
01:20:53It was incredibly traumatic.
01:20:55Months, months later, I think it was like six months
01:20:59until he got the courage to go back to the Outback
01:21:02and go camping again.
01:21:04He's on a hiking trail and he decides to go by the river
01:21:09and he wants to go in the water or something,
01:21:12and all of a sudden he feels something nip at his heel
01:21:17where he got bitten the time six months before.
01:21:20He collapses onto the ground.
01:21:21He passes out.
01:21:23It turns out it was nothing more than a twig
01:21:25that scratched him.
01:21:27But he had this expectation.
01:21:29Again, his body had this belief about what that means,
01:21:32and then he produced this nocebo response,
01:21:34not because of choice.
01:21:35He wasn't a bad person.
01:21:36He didn't lack willpower.
01:21:37He didn't will it on himself.
01:21:38But he had been trained based on priors
01:21:40to have this hypervigilant response.
01:21:42And so that's exactly what's going on
01:21:43with many of these other conditions as well.
01:21:45- What is your guide for secular rational prayer,
01:21:51placebo prayer?
01:21:54- Placebo prayer.
01:21:55- Take me through the protocol for placebo prayer.
01:21:59- Yeah.
01:22:00So I think you have to find what works for you.
01:22:04And what worked for me was engaging
01:22:08in some kind of regular practice.
01:22:10And what I was particularly curious about
01:22:12is what to pray for.
01:22:14Because I didn't think that,
01:22:17I didn't wanna ask for stuff.
01:22:19I don't believe in some kind of cosmic slot machine
01:22:21that Santa Claus is gonna give me this,
01:22:23give me money, give me health, give me wisdom,
01:22:26give me all that stuff.
01:22:27What I was asking for was not even for life to get easier.
01:22:33I was looking for ways to get stronger,
01:22:35to reinforce the tenets, the attributes
01:22:39that I want to cultivate myself.
01:22:42So patience, tolerance, gratitude, that's what I pray for.
01:22:47I pray to be cognizant of how incredibly lucky I am
01:22:53to live on this tiny marble dot in the universe
01:22:57that's swimming around in a vacuum of space,
01:22:59that we live in this time and place
01:23:01to even have this conversation with conscious awareness.
01:23:05You're in Austin, I'm in Spain,
01:23:08and we're talking over the internet right now.
01:23:09Like how amazing is this future,
01:23:12or is this what I would've thought would've been
01:23:14a science fiction future,
01:23:15and today we're actually living it.
01:23:16So to be consciously gracious and humble about that,
01:23:21that's something I try and remind myself through a practice
01:23:23of prayer, and it turns out that doing that on your own
01:23:27has benefits, of course.
01:23:28It's also a form of problem solving.
01:23:31So many times when I pray, it's a little bit different
01:23:34from meditation.
01:23:34So when I used to meditate, I used to meditate quite a bit,
01:23:37and I don't really meditate as much anymore.
01:23:40It's not that I'm anti, I think it has all kinds of benefits,
01:23:42but the role of meditation, at least the kind of meditation
01:23:45I would practice, was being aware of your thoughts
01:23:47and then letting your thoughts go.
01:23:50That's not what I do anymore.
01:23:52Again, not that it's bad.
01:23:53I think it helps lots of people.
01:23:54There's a lot of great research about how wonderful it is.
01:23:55I've kind of moved on to a point now
01:23:58where now prayer almost becomes a form of problem solving,
01:24:01where by just thinking, by just letting my mind
01:24:06think about the problem in a specific time and place,
01:24:11not in between tasks, not for a minute here, a minute there,
01:24:14but just to contemplate.
01:24:16Sometimes I even do it through writing.
01:24:18That can be a form of prayer for me.
01:24:20That problem solving, and even religious people
01:24:23who have a faith tradition,
01:24:24when they have that conversation with God,
01:24:27many times it can open up those opportunities
01:24:30for them to make change in their life
01:24:32that if they had not made that time
01:24:34to have that conversation with their maker,
01:24:35that they wouldn't have found those opportunities.
01:24:37Now, when you layer on top of that a community,
01:24:41that's amazing.
01:24:43This is what the Catholic priest said to me.
01:24:45He said, "People come to mass
01:24:47"and they come with all kinds of requests."
01:24:49They say, "God, please help my daughter, help my business,
01:24:54"help me heal, help me this."
01:24:56What they don't realize is that many times
01:24:58the way God answers these prayers
01:25:00is with the people next to you,
01:25:02that when you're in church with people in the pew
01:25:05who could help you with the business,
01:25:07could help you with your health,
01:25:08could help you with that relationship you're seeking
01:25:10to mend or build or find.
01:25:12And so there is a place with that community
01:25:14that I think many times secular people, free thinkers,
01:25:17like I am, we miss out on.
01:25:19And so what I now do is to take part in those communities,
01:25:23whereas before I was so wedded to the fact
01:25:26that it had to be true, that I had to believe everything.
01:25:28And frankly, I think congregations also demanded that.
01:25:31I kind of felt that if I don't,
01:25:34I don't belong unless I believe everything they tell me,
01:25:37I'm an imposter.
01:25:38But now I've kind of relaxed that, right?
01:25:40It's don't ask, don't tell.
01:25:41Nobody asks the pope exactly what he believes, right?
01:25:44Nobody questions him.
01:25:45- There's no faith test on the way out to ensure that you--
01:25:49- Some places do that,
01:25:51but I don't want to be part of those places.
01:25:53- It's a very utilitarian view of this.
01:25:56Look, it seems to make people live longer
01:25:59and be healthier and enjoy life more.
01:26:02Why would I not try this particular tactic?
01:26:08Okay, so you're doing it on a nighttime,
01:26:10you're doing it in the morning, are you saying it out loud?
01:26:11Are you doing it with a partner?
01:26:12Are you doing it on your own?
01:26:13What have you found?
01:26:15- I do it whenever I pass a religious institution.
01:26:19So if the door's open, I walk in.
01:26:22I didn't know you could do that, but you can.
01:26:24You can just walk in,
01:26:25even if you're not a member of that congregation,
01:26:27even if it's not your background.
01:26:30And you can go in and you can pray.
01:26:32- Unreal.
01:26:35Dude, I think this is a much needed book.
01:26:38I think it's a, and I appreciate that you managed
01:26:40to balance the, you have got control of this
01:26:45with the way that you feel is not unreal and not fake.
01:26:48And I think that walking that line is a really difficult one
01:26:50because it switches people off immediately
01:26:53if they feel like they're being victim blamed
01:26:54for something that they feel
01:26:56and being able to empower somebody
01:26:58to you can make changes to this.
01:27:00And also everything that you're going through
01:27:03is completely 100% real.
01:27:06That is a, it's not an easy one.
01:27:07So congratulations, man.
01:27:09Where should people go to check out
01:27:10everything you got going on?
01:27:11- I appreciate it, thank you.
01:27:12So my blog is niranfar.com.
01:27:15Nira spelt like my first name.
01:27:16That's N-I-R-N-FAR.com.
01:27:19And we actually have a special bonus.
01:27:20We put together a five minute belief change plan,
01:27:24which you don't have to buy anything.
01:27:25You don't have to sign up for anything.
01:27:26It's completely free.
01:27:26We just couldn't fit it in the book.
01:27:28And that is at niranfar.com/belief-change.
01:27:32That's niranfar.com/belief-change.
01:27:37- Heck yeah.
01:27:39Nira, until the next time, get writing.
01:27:41We'll talk again.
01:27:42- Appreciate it.
01:27:43Thanks, Chris.
01:27:44- Congratulations.
01:27:45You made it to the end of an episode.
01:27:48Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:27:49by the internet just yet.
01:27:51Here's another one that you should watch.
01:27:54Go on.

Key Takeaway

Nir Eyal argues that beliefs are tools rather than immutable truths, and by consciously reframing them, we can unlock latent agency, manage chronic pain, and achieve radical persistence.

Highlights

Beliefs act as a psychological lens that shapes how we perceive reality, feel internal states, and take action.

The placebo effect is so powerful that it can work even when patients are consciously aware they are taking an inert substance.

Limiting beliefs are often 'cultural nocebos' or labels like "I'm not a morning person" that sap motivation and create artificial boundaries.

Motivation is a triangle consisting of behavior, benefit, and belief; without belief in oneself or the outcome, the system collapses.

Agency is the internal locus of control that allows individuals to manufacture their own 'luck' by staying alert to opportunities others miss.

The 'Hope Circuit' in the brain suggests that helplessness is a default state that must be overcome by learning and practicing hope.

Persistence is a defining trait of success, as demonstrated by the 'rat study' where hope extended physical endurance by 240 times.

Timeline

The Profound Power of Belief and Perception

Nir Eyal introduces the concept that beliefs are the primary upstream filter for how we interact with the world. He uses the 'coffer illusion' to demonstrate how two people can look at the exact same image yet see different shapes based on their priors and upbringing. Eyal emphasizes that beliefs do not just change our figurative outlook but literally shape our physical reality and actions. He critiques the 'whimsical' nature of manifestation and 'The Secret,' opting instead for a science-backed approach. The section concludes with Eyal's mission to separate effective psychological frameworks from pseudoscientific 'bullshit' using peer-reviewed research.

The Science of Placebos and Honest Medicine

The discussion shifts to the fascinating discovery that placebos work even when the deception is removed, known as 'open-label placebos.' Eyal cites a Harvard study where IBS patients found relief from pills explicitly labeled as placebos because they believed in the process of treatment. This phenomenon extends to branded versus generic painkillers, where the expectation of quality increases efficacy despite identical chemical structures. The speaker makes a critical distinction between 'sickness' (physical malady) and 'illness' (the psychological perception of symptoms). He argues that while placebos cannot cure a biological infection, they are incredibly potent at managing the subjective experience of illness.

Rituals, Religion, and the Spiritual Crisis

Eyal shares his personal journey of adopting prayer as a secular ritual after discovering research on its health benefits. He notes that 'spiritual but not religious' individuals often suffer from higher rates of anxiety compared to those with structured religious practices or firm agnosticism. A pain tolerance study is discussed, showing that even non-believers can increase their endurance by using 'placebo prayer' or mantras centered on something meaningful. The conversation highlights Japan's culture as 'religious but not spiritual,' where ritualistic behavior provides psychological benefits without requiring supernatural faith. This section suggests that the utility of religion lies in its community and grounding rituals rather than just its dogmatic truths.

Predictive Processing and Internal Simulations

Eyal explains the neuroscience of how the brain processes 11 million bits of information per second while conscious awareness only handles about 50 bits. To manage this gap, the brain uses 'predictive processing,' meaning we see what we expect to appear rather than a raw feed of reality. He argues that we are all essentially 'gaslighting' ourselves with limiting beliefs like "I'm too old" or "I have no time." Eyal categorizes convictions into facts (objective truths), faith (conviction without evidence), and beliefs (convictions open to revision). He introduces the transformative mantra that "beliefs are tools, not truths," which allows people to pick up or put down perspectives based on their utility.

The Motivation Triangle and Overcoming Failure

Traditional productivity systems often fail because they treat motivation as a straight line between behavior and incentive. Eyal proposes a 'Motivation Triangle' that adds a third essential point: the belief that one is capable of the behavior and that the benefit is attainable. Without this belief, discipline and systems eventually collapse, leading to a loss of agency. He explains that we often build 'effigies' of ourselves and others based on past patterns, which prevents us from seeing potential for change. To escape this, Eyal suggests looking for recurring areas of 'stuckness' and identifying the hidden limiting beliefs anchoring those patterns.

The Turnaround Technique and Managing Rumination

Eyal provides a practical four-question framework for challenging a belief, illustrated by a personal story about a conflict with his mother. The process involves asking if a belief is true, if it is absolutely true, who we are with that belief, and who we would be without it. He advocates for 'trying on' the exact opposite belief as an experiment to gain perspective and emotional relief. The section also addresses rumination, explaining that it is often an escape from reality that feels like problem-solving but is actually destructive. Eyal recommends 'scheduling time to worry' as a way to contain these thoughts and move back into a state of active presence.

Learned Hope and the 60-Hour Rat Study

The speaker recounts a 1950s study by Kurt Richter involving rats in cylinders of water to test endurance and hope. While wild rats gave up after 15 minutes, those that were momentarily 'saved' and then put back in swam for an incredible 60 hours. This 240-fold increase in endurance occurred because the rats believed salvation was possible, proving that limits are often psychological rather than physical. Eyal emphasizes that quitting is not inherently wrong, but 'quitting too soon' is a tragic waste of human capital. He provides three criteria for when to persist: if you haven't hit a checkpoint, if you are still learning, and if persistence actually makes a physical difference.

Manufacturing Luck and the Negativity Bias

Luck is reframed as a skill called 'entrepreneurial alertness' rather than mere chance. Eyal cites a newspaper study where optimists found a hidden prize in 11 seconds while pessimists took over two minutes because they didn't believe an opportunity existed. He explains 'negativity bias' and the 'Dartmouth scar study,' where women who believed they had facial scars reported being stared at even after the fake scars were secretly removed. These examples prove that we don't just 'see it to believe it,' but we often have to 'believe it to see it.' Eyal encourages a 'love language' of changing one's mind, viewing a shift in perspective as a gift rather than a sign of weakness.

Cultural Nocebos and Overcoming Chronic Pain

The focus turns to 'nocebos'—beliefs that cause harm—and how they can spread like a contagious epidemic through social media and culture. Eyal discusses 'Pain Reprocessing Therapy' (PRT), which helps patients with neuroplastic chronic pain by breaking the 'fear-pain-fear loop.' He shares the story of Mr. A, who experienced a full-blown physiological overdose on placebo pills until he was told they were inert, at which point he recovered instantly. The speaker highlights 'hypnocidation,' where patients undergo surgery without anesthesia by focusing their minds away from pain. This section asserts that labels like 'imposter syndrome' or 'not a morning person' are often self-imposed limits that become biological realities through our expectations.

The Hope Circuit and Reclaiming Agency

Eyal corrects a long-held psychological myth by stating that helplessness is actually the brain's default state, and hope is what must be learned. He discusses the 'Hope Circuit' in the brain and how an internal locus of control leads to better health, longer life, and higher success. Using the story of Serena Williams, who was lied to by her coach about her stats to boost her confidence, he illustrates how 'useful lies' can become reality. The final portion of the transcript emphasizes that while physics sets a broad window for our potential, our beliefs dictate where we land within that window. Eyal concludes by offering a 'Five Minute Belief Change Plan' as a secular way to practice gratitude and problem-solving.

Closing Remarks and Practical Resources

In the final minutes, Eyal and the host Chris summarize the importance of balancing the reality of one's feelings with the empowerment to change them. Eyal reiterates that his goal is to help people move from a passive state to one of agency without resorting to toxic positivity or victim-blaming. He shares his website information and specific URLs for listeners to download free tools like the 'Belief Change Plan.' The episode ends with a call to action for viewers to investigate their own internal simulations and choose tools that serve their goals. Chris thanks Nir for his analytical approach to a topic that is often shrouded in mysticism and 'woo-woo' pseudoscience.

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