Why Men Are At The Top Of Society (and the bottom) - Roy Baumeister

English
CChris Williamson
정신 건강경영/리더십입시/진학결혼/가정생활

Transcript

00:00:00you say that cultures flourish by exploiting men.
00:00:04What's that mean?
00:00:05- Well, there are multiple aspects to it,
00:00:10but first of all, men are more expendable than women,
00:00:15probably for basic biological reasons.
00:00:18If a small group loses half its men,
00:00:21the next generation can still be full size.
00:00:23Loses half its women, it'll be a long time to recover.
00:00:27So it risks men.
00:00:30A lot poach men to work to produce things.
00:00:34Most of the structures of society are really created by men.
00:00:39I was talking to Carol Hovind at Harvard,
00:00:45and she said there was a feminist who had an epiphany.
00:00:49One point she was looking out the window and said,
00:00:51"The whole world is built by men."
00:00:53Look at the buildings and the roads and the cars
00:00:58and all those things, and that's just the physical world,
00:01:03the institutions too, the banks and the schools
00:01:08and the armies and the governments and the marketplaces.
00:01:14Women do plenty of wonderful things,
00:01:17and they're important partners
00:01:19in the flourishing of our species.
00:01:22But creating large social systems,
00:01:24that seems always to be the men's job.
00:01:28And so our cultures compete against other cultures,
00:01:32which is mostly groups of men
00:01:34competing against other groups of men.
00:01:36Now women have joined the groups in many places,
00:01:39but still the institutional structures are created by men.
00:01:44- Why is it the case that men have been overrepresented
00:01:47as the builders in that case,
00:01:49both cognitively, systemically, physically?
00:01:58Why is it that it's 'cause men do those things
00:02:03and women don't?
00:02:05What I realized fairly early on,
00:02:09and I have some publications of this,
00:02:11and it was an early part of my thinking,
00:02:14is that the way people are being social,
00:02:17there are a couple ways.
00:02:18There's interacting one-to-one,
00:02:20or there's doing things in large groups.
00:02:23I noticed this 'cause in my field, social psychology,
00:02:25people were starting to say women are more social than men,
00:02:28because they're really invested in the relationships,
00:02:32the one-to-one relationships,
00:02:34which is a big area of study in my field.
00:02:37But if you start looking at things that people do in groups,
00:02:40men do those much more than women.
00:02:46And I think, probably again, it's a innate tendency.
00:02:51The most important relationship in biology
00:02:55is the mother-to-child one.
00:02:58And so that's a one-to-one relationship.
00:03:00In humans, women got particular men
00:03:05to form a one-to-one relationship with them,
00:03:09to protect and provide and do all those things,
00:03:13which really enabled the larger brain to grow
00:03:17and made everything else possible.
00:03:21Whereas men do things more in larger groups.
00:03:24And so competition between groups is men against men,
00:03:28whether it's on the battlefield
00:03:30or in the business marketplace or scientifically.
00:03:34Men compete in groups.
00:03:40It's not something that women naturally do
00:03:44and form large groups.
00:03:46There are even experiments, when I was researching this,
00:03:48they would do with children,
00:03:50and they'd have two boys playing together,
00:03:52and then the experimenter would bring in a third boy.
00:03:55And the boys would say, okay, sure, come on, join the game.
00:03:59But if it's two girls,
00:04:01they don't really want the third girl.
00:04:03They exclude her and reject her.
00:04:05Suggest there's this mental focus
00:04:08on the one-to-one relationship.
00:04:10Again, it's better for intimacy.
00:04:13A lot of the differences, psychological differences,
00:04:16between men and women can be understood this way.
00:04:20For example, most data show
00:04:21that women are more emotionally expressive than men.
00:04:25They share their feelings directly and so on.
00:04:28Well, in a one-to-one relationship,
00:04:30that's what you wanna do.
00:04:32So the other person understands you,
00:04:34so you can share your feelings,
00:04:36and the other person can take care of you
00:04:38and respond to you and so on.
00:04:40In a large group, showing your feelings all the time
00:04:43is not so useful.
00:04:44Obviously, in the economic marketplace,
00:04:46if you go, oh, this is wonderful, I gotta have it,
00:04:49well, the price is gonna be higher
00:04:51than if you say, oh, I'm not sure.
00:04:53Maybe not today.
00:04:56Wait a minute, come back, I'll give you a better deal.
00:04:58And you may have, in a large group,
00:05:01you have rivals and competitors.
00:05:05So again, you don't wanna give away too much.
00:05:07So the emotional reserve of men
00:05:10is more suited to the large group,
00:05:12where the expressiveness of the woman
00:05:15is suited to the one-to-one relationship.
00:05:19And that's why love and family and all those things,
00:05:24women are sometimes considered,
00:05:26they are the natural experts at these things.
00:05:28And some of the researchers tell the men,
00:05:32well, listen to your wife on this.
00:05:34But it also explains why women haven't ever
00:05:38organized themselves in large groups
00:05:42to get things done.
00:05:44I mean, why didn't women ever, 50 women,
00:05:47build a boat and sail off into the unknown
00:05:49to explore things.
00:05:51Men did things like this throughout history
00:05:53and all over the world.
00:05:54But you don't do that as one or two people.
00:06:00You do it in a larger group.
00:06:01So again, the men in groups seems to be a natural pattern.
00:06:08There's even some evidence about this
00:06:10in the other great apes.
00:06:13I was reading Michael Tomasello's work on there,
00:06:16and he says, well, groups of male chimpanzees
00:06:19will go out and get in a battle with others,
00:06:21or sometimes they'll go hunting together.
00:06:24It's not real cooperation, he says.
00:06:26Each one's really out for itself,
00:06:28but you have more opportunities
00:06:29if you go out in the group.
00:06:31But the females don't do that.
00:06:33He said about the only thing you see cooperation
00:06:36among adult female chimpanzees is sometimes,
00:06:39if one of them has a cute little baby,
00:06:42a couple of the other adult females will join together
00:06:45and come and go over to that woman, that ape,
00:06:48and beat her up and steal her baby and kill it and eat it.
00:06:51Which is fortunate.
00:06:53We don't seem to see much of that in our species.
00:06:56- Right.
00:06:57- We left that behind evolutionarily.
00:06:59But that's one of the only things.
00:07:01Jane Goodall in her observations had that with gorillas.
00:07:05I think also that a couple adult females
00:07:08would kill and eat all the babies.
00:07:10This was a nice, tasty snack for them.
00:07:13And with the two of them, they could overpower the mother.
00:07:17But it's obviously not productive cooperation.
00:07:23That's just taking someone's baby and eating it.
00:07:27- What about the ways that males compete and females compete?
00:07:32I have to assume that that level of competition
00:07:37drives different kinds of outcomes for each sex.
00:07:40- Yes, well, there was the idea for a long time
00:07:46that women don't compete or don't like to compete as much.
00:07:49And then they gradually realize that this is wrong.
00:07:52It's just they don't want to acknowledge it that openly.
00:07:56They do compete often for love,
00:07:59specifically for the affection and attraction
00:08:02of the most desirable men.
00:08:06But that often can't be acknowledged.
00:08:08It's done sometimes by blackening the reputation
00:08:10of the other woman and spreading negative stories about her.
00:08:15Even some of those, my former PhD student, Tanya Reynolds,
00:08:21who's really made a terrific career
00:08:25studying female competition in evolutionary context.
00:08:32In one of her experiments, she wanted to see
00:08:36will there be gossip used?
00:08:38Will women just spontaneously gossip about someone else?
00:08:42So she had people come in, told to women
00:08:44to work on a project together.
00:08:47And so she leaves them alone and they're working.
00:08:49And then the one who's actually a research assistant
00:08:53who's working, pretending to be a subject and experiment,
00:08:56but she's actually following a script.
00:08:59And she says, oh, I just can't do this today.
00:09:03I don't feel good.
00:09:04I drank too much last night.
00:09:06I think I hooked up with two different guys last night.
00:09:09So she delivers this very juicy tidbit and then they go on.
00:09:14And then that woman leaves and then in comes another woman,
00:09:18who is another real subject.
00:09:19And the question is, does the woman repeat this,
00:09:22this gossip about her?
00:09:25Well, it turned out what they also made
00:09:27is the woman who made this disclosure, sometimes she was
00:09:30dressed really sexy and hot and looked very nice,
00:09:33and sometimes she just looked like a mess.
00:09:35It was not very attractive.
00:09:37Well, when she was attractive, so she energized
00:09:42the woman's competitive gears, then they gossiped.
00:09:46Then they said, so-and-so hooked up with two men last night.
00:09:51But Tania also noticed, and other research by her
00:09:56has borne this out.
00:09:57They don't do it in a seemingly malicious way.
00:10:01They say, oh, I was really concerned about so-and-so.
00:10:04I wonder, there's a problem.
00:10:06She said she hooked up with two different men last night.
00:10:09I must be bad for her.
00:10:10I'm kind of worried about her.
00:10:12So the negative information gets spread.
00:10:14And remember, why would you only worry
00:10:16about the well-dressed attractive woman?
00:10:18Why would you worry about the other woman?
00:10:21But that shows the competitive edge to it.
00:10:27So anyway, there is competition
00:10:31among women in the romantic sphere.
00:10:35Most studies look in terms of career stuff.
00:10:39Now, I have to say, when we talk about differences
00:10:42between men and women,
00:10:43we're talking overlapping distributions.
00:10:46So the difference between the average man
00:10:48and the average woman is real,
00:10:50but it might be fairly small
00:10:52compared to the variety within women.
00:10:54I've known some extremely competitive women
00:10:57and some extremely not competitive women,
00:10:59and on average, women are less ambitious, too.
00:11:04Probably evolutionary people talk about it
00:11:08that we're descended from men
00:11:11that really the top male got to do most of the reproducing.
00:11:14So in, say, the other great apes,
00:11:18and even in polygamy,
00:11:20which has existed in the majority of cultures
00:11:22in the history of the world,
00:11:23one man with multiple wives,
00:11:25well, that's the rich, successful man,
00:11:28and he gets to have multiple wives and multiple children,
00:11:33which means a lot of men don't get any wives.
00:11:35So the drive to get to the top,
00:11:40we're descended from the man who did it.
00:11:43A man may have been pretty smart,
00:11:45but he didn't care about outdoing all the others,
00:11:47or he might have been very physically strong
00:11:48and didn't care about that.
00:11:50Well, then he didn't rise to the top,
00:11:52didn't pass on his genes, we're descended from the ones
00:11:55who really did try to compete.
00:11:59It's part of people bringing this up.
00:12:01I've been thinking about the great inflation issues
00:12:04and problems recently,
00:12:05and it disengages the young men,
00:12:08'cause my wife explained this to me once.
00:12:11She said, "Well, the woman wants to get an A,
00:12:13"and she doesn't really mind if everybody else gets an A, too."
00:12:16As for the man, it can't be better than the other people.
00:12:21What's the point?
00:12:21Everybody gets an A.
00:12:22- So interesting.
00:12:24- Yeah, it doesn't engage them in the same way.
00:12:27And so our schools, which are now run mainly by women,
00:12:29are failing all students,
00:12:32but they're especially failing the boys.
00:12:35That seems to be it.
00:12:36And this is--
00:12:36- Because they're driven more hierarchically.
00:12:39- Yes, definitely more hierarchy.
00:12:41I remember reading, too, back in the '80s
00:12:43when women started really moving up in the businesses,
00:12:47in the organizations that men created.
00:12:50There was a lot of simplification.
00:12:52One estimate that stuck in my mind
00:12:55was the average male business hierarchy
00:12:57had seven different levels of authority.
00:13:00And once women became influential in it,
00:13:03they cut it to about four.
00:13:04So they don't like as much hierarchy.
00:13:08They favor more equality.
00:13:10And there are reasons for that, too,
00:13:16that you can argue about.
00:13:17But competition is about hierarchy.
00:13:20And so it's hard to, the men want to do it.
00:13:23You want to be the number one.
00:13:25- Historically, how much of male achievement
00:13:27do you think was driven by the desire to attract women?
00:13:30- Well, a lot.
00:13:35The evolutionary people would say,
00:13:38I mean, that might not be the thing that's in their mind,
00:13:41but the evolutionists say,
00:13:42well, that is what drives everything.
00:13:43I mean, maybe some men want to succeed
00:13:46because they want money.
00:13:48But the people would say,
00:13:50well, why does the man want money so much?
00:13:53It's because that's what attracts the women.
00:13:55So it's, I'm not one of these people
00:14:02that evolution explains everything,
00:14:04but it certainly is the starting point and explains a lot.
00:14:07- I think I'm interested in whether or not,
00:14:13to what extent female mate choice sort of shapes
00:14:16male ambition.
00:14:18You know, we're talking about this hierarchical sense.
00:14:21You've already mentioned that there's a relatively limited
00:14:25pool of men typically that reproduce
00:14:27and a bigger pool of women.
00:14:28I think it's about 40% of men ancestrally reproduced
00:14:32and about 80% of women.
00:14:33So you've got twice as many female ancestors
00:14:36as male ancestors.
00:14:37And if you've got that plus competition,
00:14:41plus big group coordination, plus a preference for hierarchy,
00:14:46you can begin to see how the pyramid
00:14:47becomes pretty pyramidy.
00:14:50- Yes, yeah.
00:14:52I mean, there was an interesting interlude
00:14:53during the hunter-gatherers in which there was equality
00:14:57and they really resisted the hierarchy.
00:14:59This was part of the transition away
00:15:01from the apes kind of society that they did it.
00:15:07But I've talked to a couple of people who studied hunter-gatherers
00:15:12and well, is it true they're all equal?
00:15:14Yes, but she said, but the women all know
00:15:17who's the best hunter and they all want him
00:15:20for their partner.
00:15:23Even though the food is shared,
00:15:25it does look like the best hunter.
00:15:29Everybody makes sure to be nice to him and his family.
00:15:33So they do get more food.
00:15:35And of course, if push came to shove,
00:15:37having the best hunter as your partner
00:15:41would make sure you're less likely to starve or go hungry.
00:15:46You and your children are less likely
00:15:49than if you have a third rate hunter as your partner.
00:15:52- Yeah, I guess, why is it the case
00:15:56that men are overrepresented
00:15:58at both the top and the bottom of society?
00:16:03- All right, well, that was another thing I emphasized
00:16:06in the book.
00:16:07The complaints or the feminists looked at the top
00:16:10and say, oh, well, the presidents and the governors
00:16:13and the executives are mostly men,
00:16:16must be great to be a man.
00:16:18But I said, well, but look at the bottom of society,
00:16:20who's in prison, who's homeless,
00:16:22who's a cannon fodder being killed in battle,
00:16:27that you see mostly men there.
00:16:29Now, why that is,
00:16:33that's a more difficult question to answer.
00:16:38For one thing, though, there's more variability among men.
00:16:43Men are more different from other men
00:16:46than women are from other women.
00:16:49So it's even true with basic things like height.
00:16:52Obviously, on average, men are taller than women.
00:16:55But there are a lot of pretty short men,
00:17:00and the distribution is flatter, as we say.
00:17:03They're more really tall and really short men
00:17:07than really tall and really short women,
00:17:09even though the average is different.
00:17:11The average is, the difference in average
00:17:14is much smaller with intelligence.
00:17:16But the same thing, you see more males at both extremes.
00:17:20We have more data at the bottom end,
00:17:22'cause people have done decades of studying research
00:17:25on mental retardation.
00:17:27And as you move from the mild to the moderate
00:17:31to the severely retarded, the sex ratio becomes more skewed,
00:17:35more and more boys at each level.
00:17:39And there's less at the other end,
00:17:40but it's the same thing as you move from mildly genius
00:17:43to moderate genius to super genius, again.
00:17:46(laughing)
00:17:46- What's the idea of a super genius again?
00:17:49- Yeah.
00:17:49- Yeah.
00:17:50- The super high IQ, this is Lawrence Summers
00:17:56at the Harvard meeting.
00:17:59They asked how come there aren't a lot of math
00:18:01and physics professors at Harvard who are women?
00:18:03And he said, and he was right.
00:18:06If you have to be just super intelligent
00:18:10to be able to work at that kind of level,
00:18:12there are more men there.
00:18:14And people got all upset and it led to his downfall.
00:18:18They thought he was saying men are smarter than women,
00:18:21which is not what he was saying.
00:18:22He was just saying there's more variability.
00:18:25So again, if you look at the bottom end
00:18:28of the intelligence distribution, men predominate more.
00:18:33So--
00:18:33- It wouldn't have got the rankled groups in the same way
00:18:37if he'd said there's more stupid men
00:18:40than there are stupid women.
00:18:41- Yeah, nobody minds that to it.
00:18:44It's this feminist control.
00:18:47Now why that is, why men are more variable,
00:18:50I have a pet theory.
00:18:52I've talked to some biologists.
00:18:53They said it's plausible.
00:18:55We don't know that it's true.
00:18:57- Speculative bro science is very welcome.
00:19:00I'm very excited to hear this.
00:19:03- Well, the man has the XY chromosome, the woman has XX.
00:19:08So producing something new,
00:19:12there's a mutation on the chromosome.
00:19:15There's something goes wrong
00:19:17and produces a different variation.
00:19:21And there's a question, does that then show up in behavior?
00:19:25Do the genes show up in the physical properties?
00:19:29Well, for the woman with the X chromosome,
00:19:31there's always a backup.
00:19:33So even if something goes wrong on one of the little
00:19:37weirdnesses or one of the branches of the X,
00:19:42there is only a 50/50 chance that we'll get through
00:19:45and maybe even less than that.
00:19:47Maybe the healthy one takes over or something.
00:19:50So there are less few,
00:19:54but nature can roll the dice more easily with men
00:19:56'cause if it happens on the bottom part of the Y
00:20:00where there's no backup,
00:20:01then that will more likely come true.
00:20:04It's certainly adaptive in a way
00:20:06that evolutionarily successful for nature
00:20:09to gamble with men more than women
00:20:11because a lot of men don't reproduce at all.
00:20:16And most mutations are bad.
00:20:17Most mutations are not an improvement.
00:20:20And so you want that flushed out of the gene pool right away
00:20:24if there's a bad mutation.
00:20:25Well, that's easy with the men
00:20:26since most men don't reproduce anyway.
00:20:28- Such a good, yeah, I totally.
00:20:31What's that line about men and natures play things?
00:20:34- Yeah, that's-- - I hadn't realized.
00:20:37That's yours? - Yeah.
00:20:38- Ah, I love quoting someone to them
00:20:40when I didn't realize it was them.
00:20:42- And it works the other way too at the other end
00:20:45because a woman can't really have more
00:20:48than about a dozen children,
00:20:49but there are men who have hundreds.
00:20:53And so if you have a good mutation,
00:20:55then you want it to spread through the gene pool, right?
00:20:57That's how evolution makes progress.
00:21:01And so the bad mutations are gone in one generation
00:21:05and the good ones spread more.
00:21:08- We'll get back to talking in just one second.
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00:22:12Are the biggest differences between men and women,
00:22:14do you think, in terms of motivations or ability?
00:22:21- Motivations, I tend to favor ability.
00:22:26Throwing things is the biggest thing, I guess.
00:22:29(laughing)
00:22:31And ability is superior.
00:22:32- It also includes on that, I'm sure that you've seen this,
00:22:36but it also includes dodging things.
00:22:38It's not just throwing things, it's also dodging things.
00:22:40So there's a study done, one of the problems you have
00:22:44when you're looking at throwing accuracy,
00:22:48you have different articulations of the shoulder capsule,
00:22:50you have different lengths of the forearm.
00:22:53It's very difficult to not have young boys
00:22:56spend the entire first decade of their life
00:22:59picking up stones and throwing them.
00:23:01Girls don't do it in quite the same way.
00:23:03So how are you gonna control for physiological differences,
00:23:06structural differences, biomechanics,
00:23:08just conditioning of I threw lots of stones when I was five.
00:23:12So one of the ways that they tried to control for this
00:23:15was instead of it being about throwing, it was about dodging.
00:23:19And this was, I don't know how this got past an ethics board.
00:23:21They took one of those tennis ball serving cannons
00:23:26that gets used so that they can fire tennis balls
00:23:29across a court.
00:23:30And they had males and females try to get out of the way.
00:23:35And in the male cohorts, they didn't get hit once.
00:23:39And in the female cohorts, they got hit,
00:23:41they were peppered quite a few times.
00:23:43And I think that is the same spatial rotation,
00:23:47like the ability to understand things in space.
00:23:50- That could be.
00:23:51My friend Ron Hippel has made a big emphasis
00:23:54that coordinated strong throwing
00:23:57was one of the key early human group traits.
00:24:02Because if you're in the wild and there's a lion,
00:24:06you and your stone are not likely to get very far.
00:24:12But if there are 10 of you, you all throw stones
00:24:15and some of them will hit, enough of them will get home.
00:24:18That the lion goes away.
00:24:20What they suggest is that instead of hunting,
00:24:24we could scavenge if the lions killed something.
00:24:27Then a bunch of humans could come on, throw stones.
00:24:29- Scare away the lion, yes.
00:24:32- Which would must have driven them crazy, but--
00:24:35- Yeah, it's super annoying.
00:24:36Not only to have chased this thing down,
00:24:38finally got some food and then a bunch of stones hit you.
00:24:41Bill taught me about that.
00:24:43I think it was him that said to me as well
00:24:44that thing about kids.
00:24:46If you just put boys in a field, a playground,
00:24:51and there's stones, there's something so primal
00:24:55about just picking it up and throwing it.
00:24:57It's almost like when you see dogs kicking their back feet
00:25:00to after they've been to the toilet
00:25:03and they're sort of pushing up the dirt in order to,
00:25:05like who taught you to do that?
00:25:08No one taught me that I should pick up a stone.
00:25:11I just see it on the ground, even now.
00:25:13- Even now.
00:25:15- Yes, yes, okay.
00:25:16Yeah, it's clearly something we don't use anymore
00:25:18as a strategy to get food.
00:25:20- I don't go into Chipotle and make a habit
00:25:23of flicking pebbles at people until they get me their food.
00:25:25No, that's correct.
00:25:26- Yes, but it could well have some impulse there
00:25:32and probably more in the boys than in the girls.
00:25:35It's taking on dangerous animals is usually the men's job.
00:25:40- Okay, what about risk taking?
00:25:41Because that has to be a big,
00:25:44in fact, forget even the risk taking thing.
00:25:46The differences in the motivations,
00:25:47when we're talking about something that controls
00:25:50for physical ability is maybe heavily influenced
00:25:55by cognitive variance.
00:25:56So something like chess playing,
00:25:57there was a study that came out again recently
00:25:59looking at the total ELO scores over time
00:26:02of the best chess players in the world.
00:26:04And I think there was only one female player
00:26:06that ranked in the top something, maybe the top hundred,
00:26:11maybe the top 50, there's only one.
00:26:13And you think, well, this might be due
00:26:15to some cognitive differences in ability
00:26:18that if you've just got all of these outliers,
00:26:21the 50 men in that 50 are just the tail of the tail
00:26:24of the tail at the very top of processing power.
00:26:28But that's not just what chess ability measures.
00:26:31It also measures your stubbornness
00:26:35and your motivation to compete with other people
00:26:38for hours and hours and hours obsessively.
00:26:41So that is, I like the idea of the chess thing
00:26:44because it controls for pretty much every variable
00:26:46except for one type of ability
00:26:49or like a smaller bucket of abilities
00:26:51that are typically kind of denied, I guess,
00:26:53when you look at denial of sex difference stuff
00:26:55and motivations.
00:26:57That motivations to me seem to play a much bigger role
00:27:01in that than you would be able to excuse
00:27:03if it was something that was biomechanical.
00:27:05- Well, two points to that.
00:27:07One is, I remember being surprised
00:27:09that men and women have separate chess tournaments.
00:27:12I mean, I can understand in basketball
00:27:14that the girls' team won't be able to play
00:27:17against the boys' team as the men are taller and so on,
00:27:21but why in chess?
00:27:23But it could be this kind of distribution
00:27:26in terms of ability.
00:27:31There also may be more competitive motivation.
00:27:35My friend John Tierney has this,
00:27:37he's a super good writer,
00:27:40he wrote for the New York Times for many years,
00:27:43and he likes Scrabble.
00:27:45He said, "Nationwide in the U.S.,
00:27:47"there are more women than men on the Scrabble clubs
00:27:51"playing Scrabble," and so on.
00:27:53And it goes with women are highly verbal and so on,
00:27:58and many say their verbal skills are superior to men's,
00:28:02but when they have tournaments,
00:28:05all the top winners are men.
00:28:07It's very rare.
00:28:09There may be one or two occasional women to get in there,
00:28:12but in the competition, the men do it,
00:28:16and so it could be an ability difference
00:28:19that really at the super high level
00:28:21to win a large Scrabble tournament,
00:28:23you have to be really good,
00:28:24but he said also the men are more motivated, more ambitious,
00:28:29so they'll spend the time doing the drills
00:28:31and memorizing the words and doing that.
00:28:34The women go to the Scrabble club
00:28:35and they want to play Scrabble and have fun.
00:28:38They don't care about memorizing lists of words
00:28:43so that they could possibly do better in the future,
00:28:48but putting in that training effort,
00:28:53and that would go to motivation.
00:28:55That's higher among the men.
00:28:59And motivation and ability, they probably go together,
00:29:04and especially with something as important
00:29:08as men and women being slightly differently crafted
00:29:12for slightly different tasks in the biological past.
00:29:16You want to be motivated to do the things you're good at.
00:29:20- What about risk-taking then?
00:29:22What's the differences in risk-taking?
00:29:24- Well, risk-taking, first of all,
00:29:27going back to twice as many of our ancestors
00:29:31were women than men, and women are much more likely
00:29:34to reproduce than men, which means odds are in your favor.
00:29:39If your biological goal is to produce a child,
00:29:45or several and produce grandchildren,
00:29:48for a woman, playing it safe was gonna get there.
00:29:52Most women reproduced, but most men didn't.
00:29:57So if you just go along with everybody else and play along,
00:30:01you'll end up left out.
00:30:04So we're descended from the ones who were ambitious
00:30:09and rose to the top, and some of that means taking chances.
00:30:12So in the book, sailing off into the unknown to explore,
00:30:19all kinds of bad things can happen to you.
00:30:22It's not surprising women didn't want to risk that.
00:30:26But you might come back rich.
00:30:31We're descended from the men who took the chances
00:30:33and did succeed.
00:30:34Lots of men took chances and drowned or were killed
00:30:38or got nowhere.
00:30:39But that's life as a man.
00:30:45In fact, it's true, I think, in many other species.
00:30:48So if the male is a riskier,
00:30:56a riskier one because you had to succeed
00:30:59in order to be attractive and have children.
00:31:07Now there are other aspects of this.
00:31:09Joyce Benenson and her colleagues at Harvard
00:31:11had this terrific paper a year or two ago
00:31:14about safety concerns, which are much higher in women
00:31:18than men.
00:31:20- Physical safety, cultural safety?
00:31:24- I think social too, I mean, the article dwells
00:31:26on physical and medical things.
00:31:28But I think it applies in the social realm too.
00:31:33Women don't like to take chances.
00:31:36I have a colleague who is arranging getting researchers
00:31:42together to do what she called adversarial collaborations.
00:31:46Where say, you and I are both working in some area
00:31:49and we have a theoretical disagreement.
00:31:52You think your theory's right,
00:31:53and I think my theory's right.
00:31:55So one thing we could do is get together
00:31:57and do an experiment together that will agree
00:32:00this will be the critical test, okay?
00:32:02And people don't usually do this
00:32:06'cause they don't reach out to their rivals
00:32:08who they often don't like or whatever.
00:32:10But this woman, Cori Clark, was at Penn
00:32:14and she had a big grant and encouraged people to do it.
00:32:16And she said, "Yeah, people often once," she said,
00:32:19"Why don't you do a collaboration with them?"
00:32:21I said, "Yeah, that's a great idea."
00:32:23But that was the men's reaction.
00:32:25She said, "I just couldn't get the women to do it."
00:32:28She had something like 30 or 40 of these things going.
00:32:31And I talked to her one point.
00:32:31She said, "I finally got a woman to agree
00:32:35to be part of one of these things,
00:32:36but it was only on the condition
00:32:38that she would be the neutral third party.
00:32:40So she could not be proven wrong."
00:32:42And so taking that chance, she elaborates,
00:32:50it's why women want to exclude someone they disagree with
00:32:53rather than confront them.
00:32:55And you bring your data, I'll bring mine
00:32:58and we'll duke it out.
00:33:00That's more a male strategy.
00:33:03So in a way, science has become much more about excluding
00:33:08and silencing, to the detriment
00:33:12of the scientific enterprise.
00:33:14- What's your concept of the imaginary feminist?
00:33:19- Oh, all right, that was in that book I did 15 years ago.
00:33:24There's this conventional wisdom that we all have.
00:33:31And when I start to say something about gender,
00:33:34you can immediately imagine,
00:33:36"Oh, but a feminist will object to this."
00:33:39So they have taught people very well
00:33:42to have a kind of automatic internalized representation
00:33:46of a feminist that is, "Well, you can't say this,
00:33:48you can't say that."
00:33:50It's mostly silencing and disallowing things.
00:33:55So the problem if you try to deal with feminists
00:34:00on a scholarly basis, well, there are multiple problems,
00:34:05but they disagree to some extent amongst themselves
00:34:09about various things so they can easily say,
00:34:10"Well, that's not what feminists believe,"
00:34:12or at least not what all feminists believe.
00:34:16But I wanted to address this internalized feminist watchdog
00:34:21that pretty much everybody is brought up right now.
00:34:27And you can't say this and you can't say that.
00:34:30That's misogynistic or that's unfair or sexist or whatever.
00:34:34Like you were saying earlier,
00:34:39to say that there are more stupid men than women,
00:34:41well, that's fine.
00:34:42But to say there are more brilliant men than women,
00:34:44oh, oh, oh, you can't say that.
00:34:46So that's what I was trying to get at
00:34:49with the imaginary feminist.
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00:35:56Do you think modern gender discourse
00:35:59is missing the concept of trade-offs?
00:36:02What is it that's going wrong
00:36:04when it comes to talking about men and women?
00:36:06- Absolutely, I was convinced of trade-offs
00:36:11really early in my career
00:36:13and I think social science in general,
00:36:15they wanna say this is good and that's bad.
00:36:17And not all of them, there are lots of people
00:36:19who believe in trade-offs.
00:36:21But sort of the dominant view is,
00:36:23well, this is a problem and we have to do this to fix it.
00:36:26And instead of saying, well, you fix one problem,
00:36:28you create another and it isn't so easy
00:36:32just to solve problems.
00:36:33So I have this view.
00:36:38Some social scientists see it as our work
00:36:41is a way of making society better.
00:36:43And so they have a clear idea of what's gonna be better.
00:36:46And don't want to acknowledge that if we make a change
00:36:51to bring about this better state,
00:36:52well, maybe it'll make some other things worse.
00:36:55So students are happier with grade inflation
00:36:59where everybody gets an A.
00:37:01But then they learn less.
00:37:02There's less incentive to study and less punishment.
00:37:08Schools get rated on how many of your students graduate
00:37:12and graduate on time and things like that.
00:37:15Well, but that puts pressure on the institution
00:37:18to put out, to make sure everybody passes
00:37:21whether they deserve it or not.
00:37:24And then there are more uneducated
00:37:26or poorly educated people out there.
00:37:29I was just reading something in this morning's paper.
00:37:32I think about the Chicago schools, which a number of them,
00:37:35they don't have a single pupil who is reading
00:37:38or doing math at grade level.
00:37:40So it's nicer for the teachers
00:37:47to give everybody a positive grade.
00:37:49The students like it too.
00:37:51But there's a clear trade-off
00:37:53that you don't have to work as hard.
00:37:56- It's such a strange kind of sort of toxic compassion.
00:38:02I had this idea in my head.
00:38:04You remember the study that was done
00:38:06where some feminist scholars had tried to reanalyze
00:38:11the big game hunting data of hunter-gatherer tribes.
00:38:16And they basically said,
00:38:19women not only did just as much big game hunting as men,
00:38:22but sometimes they did even more.
00:38:24And this was their reanalysis of existing data.
00:38:27It was about five years ago and it sort of broke through.
00:38:29I remember looking at it at the time and I thought,
00:38:31this doesn't seem to make sense to me.
00:38:34I don't really understand why, but I'm not a scholar.
00:38:37I can't read the data.
00:38:39Someone analyzed their reanalysis
00:38:42and there was so much fuckery with the data.
00:38:44It was one contribution to a single hunt
00:38:49was counted the same as an entire lifetime
00:38:52as hunting from the men.
00:38:53There was no difference made for the size,
00:38:55et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:38:56And what I realized was there's a kind of soft bigotry
00:39:00of male expectations around this stuff
00:39:03that whatever men do is implicitly preferred.
00:39:06That's seen as the desirable thing.
00:39:09That women did just as much big game hunting as men
00:39:14implies that big game hunting and the male default
00:39:18is somehow more desirable.
00:39:20In the same way as there are just as many female CEOs
00:39:25are on the rise and this is something
00:39:27that should be celebrated.
00:39:29Well, because that's a position
00:39:30that's been typically held by men.
00:39:32Now it's the prestigious ones.
00:39:34You wouldn't see this for there are just as many female
00:39:37addicts and homeless people as men.
00:39:38There are just as many women in jail
00:39:40for violent crimes as men.
00:39:41You wouldn't get that in the same way.
00:39:42But I realized for a society that's increasingly obsessed
00:39:47with talking about equality, which is not equality,
00:39:51it's trying to make men and women the same,
00:39:54not to make them equal.
00:39:55It really is, it slips so much low key misogyny in
00:40:02by just tacitly derogating whatever it is
00:40:06that women tend to do naturally.
00:40:08That allo parenting, gathering.
00:40:10Gathering is not as important as hunting.
00:40:13Raising children is not as important as war.
00:40:15Staying at, building the HR department is not as important
00:40:21as being the CEO.
00:40:23There is always this sort of implicit prioritization,
00:40:27this soft bigotry of male expectations.
00:40:29And I saw it happen with that hunter gatherer,
00:40:32big game hunting thing.
00:40:33And I just, once I've seen it, I can't unsee it really.
00:40:36- Okay, a couple of things.
00:40:41First, in terms of hunting and gathering,
00:40:46they're both important.
00:40:48And gathering sometimes yields more calories.
00:40:51It certainly does much more reliably.
00:40:54But from what I'm told,
00:40:56protein has this particular higher value.
00:40:59And so men gather too, for sure.
00:41:02Especially the modern ones,
00:41:03'cause I don't think there's as much big game to hunt anymore
00:41:08for the remaining hunter gatherers anyhow.
00:41:10But protein is a particular need.
00:41:15So if you wanna make women look good,
00:41:20you just count the calories,
00:41:22and then the difference is smaller.
00:41:24But protein, which you need to grow the brain
00:41:27and the muscles and everything else,
00:41:29that is a higher prestige food.
00:41:34It's a more valuable kind of food.
00:41:36And so there is a genuine superiority in getting food,
00:41:42or getting protein food,
00:41:47which would come from mainly from hunting.
00:41:51Now women do, I understand, sometimes hunt small game.
00:41:54You know, so there's some degree of overlap,
00:41:59as you would expect.
00:42:01But it's not that the men made up
00:42:05that hunting is better than gathering.
00:42:10Being the good hunter again
00:42:12is what made the man attractive to women,
00:42:15so that he could get his choice of mates
00:42:17and have a tassel of children,
00:42:19and we'd be descended from him.
00:42:21And the women knew this too.
00:42:25I'm sorry, Joyce said they all know who's the best hunter.
00:42:29They all want him.
00:42:31So there is some benefit to protein.
00:42:38And in terms of what makes a corporation succeed,
00:42:41the HR department just manages things internally,
00:42:48but it doesn't improve the bottom line.
00:42:52You gotta work on the manufacturing technology
00:42:56and the sales opportunities.
00:43:00And those are the things where the corporations make money
00:43:03so that they can afford a human relations thing,
00:43:07which will make sure there are no office romances
00:43:10and things like that,
00:43:12which incidentally is something of a recent issue
00:43:15I've been thinking about.
00:43:17I wonder if the young people aren't marrying
00:43:21and mating nearly as much as they used to.
00:43:24And I wonder if the prohibition on workplace romance
00:43:28throughout a lot of real babies with the bathwater.
00:43:32I mean, it was done to protect women
00:43:34from a few abusive guys
00:43:37who would take advantage of their position.
00:43:40And I sympathize with that,
00:43:43but I think I like most men, I guess like you too,
00:43:47we hate those guys who abuse their positions
00:43:49'cause they discredit the rest of us.
00:43:51- Absolutely.
00:43:52- And when, again, I was visiting at Harvard
00:43:55and a woman there said,
00:43:57you know, our friends are all this long,
00:43:59happily married couples,
00:44:00but none of those marriages would be allowed today.
00:44:02A lot of them started off with professors and students
00:44:06and things like that.
00:44:07And so they pushed more and more to prohibit that.
00:44:11But often the woman initiated that herself
00:44:16and women like to marry somebody like that.
00:44:19And again, there's a lot of long, happy marriages
00:44:23are being prevented.
00:44:24And the dating apps aren't doing an adequate job.
00:44:28- Yeah, I think another interesting element here is
00:44:32modern feminism has encouraged women
00:44:36to turn into the sort of man that they want to marry.
00:44:39Very much encouraging dominance, assertiveness, independence,
00:44:45derogating, nurturing, soft, sensitive skills,
00:44:48unless they're in a man, obviously.
00:44:50And the lack of polarity,
00:44:54you just can't sort of re-engineer this out.
00:44:57And it's interesting to see
00:44:58how many of the cultural commentators online
00:45:01that will endorse a view that they don't embody,
00:45:04how many of the people that are writing about this stuff,
00:45:08if you were to look at the inner dynamic
00:45:10of their relationship, it probably looks quite traditional,
00:45:13but from the outside saying you don't need to be,
00:45:18you don't need to have a family,
00:45:19you don't need to be a mother,
00:45:20you don't need to be in any way submissive or follow
00:45:24or be led by the partner, all the rest.
00:45:26And you look internally at what a lot of these commentators
00:45:30online do, especially as they grow up a little bit more.
00:45:32And you realize that those positions aren't held.
00:45:37There was a really interesting situation.
00:45:40I don't know if you saw it.
00:45:41It went viral about six months ago.
00:45:42There was a man and a woman,
00:45:45young pair traveling in Thailand,
00:45:48some sort of East Asian country.
00:45:50And it was CCTV footage.
00:45:53And the woman was attacked by a man with a knife.
00:45:56And he was trying to steal her bag off her,
00:45:59some of her possessions.
00:46:00And the man that she was with hid
00:46:03around the side of a pillar.
00:46:05So there was a sort of a bollard or something.
00:46:07And this guy hid over there.
00:46:08As the woman was fighting,
00:46:10trying to sort of hold onto a bag.
00:46:11And this guy's got a knife.
00:46:13I don't really remember how it finished.
00:46:15All of the comments were basically saying,
00:46:19"Girl, just leave him. He's trash.
00:46:22This guy, absolutely no respect at all."
00:46:24And I wish that he had protected her.
00:46:29I wish that it hadn't happened.
00:46:30I don't think that she should have had to go through it.
00:46:32But it is difficult to diminish the protector/provider
00:46:39elements that men typically take value from.
00:46:43And in the same breath, say,
00:46:46"Yeah, but if it happens,
00:46:48you should stand up for the woman.
00:46:49Because if you've been trained for your entire life,
00:46:52well, women don't need the doors holding open for them.
00:46:55Women don't need you to make sure
00:46:56that they get home safe at night.
00:46:58They can do everything that a man does.
00:47:00Sometimes even better, just as much big game hunting.
00:47:03What is the, where are the training wheels
00:47:07for men to learn to step up in those sorts of situations?
00:47:10Right, right, yes, yes, yes, very much.
00:47:13Yeah, my generation, we were told we've got to take care
00:47:20of the girls and the women and hold the doors for them
00:47:23and protect them.
00:47:24And if there's danger, you put yourself into it.
00:47:27There's a funny story by Warren Farrell,
00:47:30who I guess initially was one of the main male feminists.
00:47:33He was, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:33He just kind of woke up to that.
00:47:35But he talked about being at a conference on feminism
00:47:38and he was out for a walk with one of the top women feminists
00:47:41and they're walking down in a park or something.
00:47:45A man jumped out from behind a tree.
00:47:47It turned out it wasn't dangerous, but it suddenly was.
00:47:50And immediately the woman ducked behind him
00:47:53and he stepped forward.
00:47:54(laughing)
00:47:56And he said, "Oh, we had such a long,
00:48:00"awkward conversation after that."
00:48:02(laughing)
00:48:04How could?
00:48:05(laughing)
00:48:07Oh, my embodied misogyny just pouring out of me.
00:48:12The patriarchy came and pulled her back behind me.
00:48:15Okay, I'm not sure I believe in either misogyny or patriarchy.
00:48:19But those are common terms, which, yeah,
00:48:24maybe that's what she blamed or something like that.
00:48:28But I certainly don't know any men who hate women.
00:48:32No.
00:48:34No, men who hate specific women.
00:48:35(laughing)
00:48:37Ex-wives and whatnot and often for understandable reasons.
00:48:40But a man who hated women in general, I don't do it.
00:48:44And if there's any gender hatred,
00:48:45it's feminists hating men in general.
00:48:48And in terms of--
00:48:50- I think there's subcultures now.
00:48:52Unfortunately, there are subcultures of men who hate women.
00:48:55You look at some of the darker corners of the internet now,
00:48:58guys that are, they're upset.
00:49:01But entire sex that they think has rejected them
00:49:06or their friends or has made a society
00:49:09where they're no longer wanted.
00:49:11I do think that the more militant edges of feminism
00:49:15have been mirrored now on the men's side.
00:49:18- Yeah, that could be.
00:49:19I wouldn't be surprised.
00:49:20And you know, if a woman who'd been raped a couple times
00:49:23hated men in general, we wouldn't be that surprised.
00:49:26- Yeah.
00:49:27- I kind of see those involuntarily celibate
00:49:30incels somewhat in the same category.
00:49:33I'm less sympathetic, but I mean the experiment would be
00:49:38if a woman would take one of these incels
00:49:43and strike up a relationship with him
00:49:46and start having sex with him,
00:49:47he might come around very rapidly.
00:49:52And all these women are bad would just evaporate.
00:49:56- That's a spicy theory that we can fix in seldom
00:49:59by just getting women to have sex with men more.
00:50:01But I do agree that, I mean, it's even discouraged
00:50:05in the world of incels.
00:50:07I'm not sure how familiar you are with it,
00:50:09but one of my best friends is the number one researcher
00:50:11on the planet, William.
00:50:13And they have this term called ascending.
00:50:16And ascending is no longer becoming an incel
00:50:21by being attractive to a woman and getting her attention,
00:50:26getting her in a bed, being found to be attractive in this way
00:50:29and it's actively discouraged.
00:50:31And I think the reason it's actively discouraged is
00:50:33if somebody else that you saw as an equal is able to ascend,
00:50:38is no longer involuntarily celibate,
00:50:41that means that maybe you're not doomed.
00:50:45And if that's the case, your sort of fatalistic view
00:50:48of why things are happening this way
00:50:51might not actually be so fatalistic.
00:50:53It might be more self-imposed
00:50:55and maybe there's something you could do.
00:50:56And as soon as you have hope,
00:50:58you also have the opportunity for disappointment.
00:51:00And without the hope, there can't be disappointment.
00:51:03So removing the hope and saying, I'm a genetic dead end,
00:51:06there's nothing that I can do.
00:51:08Women are X, Y, and Z, and that's not gonna change.
00:51:12That it's misery inducing, but predictable,
00:51:17consistent, and reassuring in some ways.
00:51:19- Yeah, yeah.
00:51:22Yeah, well, I would like to know more about the,
00:51:26in cells it's an odd corner of the world
00:51:28and I don't know people and I don't know much about them.
00:51:32But we can't take them as typical of men.
00:51:35They are usually, they are not the powerful people.
00:51:40They are not running society.
00:51:43Powerful men usually have no shortage of interested women.
00:51:48It's the ones who lack resources and successes
00:51:52and status and so on.
00:51:55- If your theory is correct, what do you think happens
00:51:59when societies stop rewarding male sacrifice?
00:52:02- Well, that would be a weakness.
00:52:07I remember my professors remembering World War II
00:52:11when it was declared and all American men rushed
00:52:14to sign up and volunteer to go fight the war.
00:52:19And I don't think that would happen today.
00:52:23The men have been brought up to think they're bad
00:52:28and the women are just as good and society,
00:52:31we teach our kids that America and the UK and so on
00:52:35are bad places, we've done bad things.
00:52:39Don't stress the positive accomplishments.
00:52:43So, that would be a vulnerability
00:52:47as long as there's no war.
00:52:50Ironic to say this, not with a war going on.
00:52:53- Yeah, I mean, it's so true that the reason
00:52:55that we're able to sort of play around in this kiddie pool
00:52:58with roles and switching of sacrifice
00:53:03and who's supposed to do what is literally
00:53:05because there aren't any intense election pressures going on.
00:53:08If there was something more extreme happening
00:53:10and imposing itself on us from the outside,
00:53:13shit would get real really quick.
00:53:14I mean, look at the Ukraine war, right?
00:53:16The Ukraine war kicks off and men were being turned away
00:53:20at the border, including trans men were being turned away
00:53:23at the border because, "Hey, no, sorry, buddy.
00:53:25Women and children get to go, but you got to stay."
00:53:28All thought, I don't know how progressive thinking Ukraine
00:53:32was prior to the war kicking off.
00:53:34I'm unsure about the cultural landscape there.
00:53:38But yeah, it seems to me like we might be entering a period
00:53:41where male motivation collapses.
00:53:43And obviously you wrote this book in 2010
00:53:46and 16 years later, the male motivation collapse,
00:53:51which you could have seen.
00:53:53It just would have been a natural by-product
00:53:55of you rolling the clock forward
00:53:56from what you'd already seen has completely come to fruition.
00:54:01So I guess I can congratulate you
00:54:02on being Cassandra in that way.
00:54:07- If it's true that ego depletion is one
00:54:11of the most successful findings in social psychology,
00:54:13that willpower is a limited resource,
00:54:17which when used can be sapped
00:54:18and takes time to come back online.
00:54:21If it's true that it's one of the most successful findings
00:54:23in social psychology, how come it keeps on being attacked?
00:54:27This is replication crisis, it doesn't repeat.
00:54:30Why is that the case?
00:54:32What are people getting wrong?
00:54:34- I don't know, people do like to tear down other things
00:54:37then there's a lot of petty jealousy and so forth.
00:54:41But evidence in favor is overwhelming.
00:54:49There must be a thousand successful findings
00:54:54in the research literature,
00:54:56which hardly any point has that meant that much support.
00:55:01I heard somebody was really saying,
00:55:03well, it must just been all been by chance
00:55:06that maybe by accident the statistics turned out this way.
00:55:11Well, chance works equally both ways.
00:55:14Half the findings should be in the opposite direction.
00:55:17There are essentially none in the opposite direction.
00:55:19I mean, saying that it's a chance where there's that much.
00:55:24There was the one initially big multi-lab replication
00:55:30which was reported as a failure.
00:55:35And so that got a lot of publicity
00:55:37'cause people like negative publicity
00:55:38and they never correct it when the positive comes around.
00:55:41Even those data were reanalyzed a couple years later
00:55:45and somebody said, oh, no, actually they didn't get people
00:55:50depleted enough to really show any effects.
00:55:54But to the slight extent that they did deplete people,
00:55:57they did what the theory predicted.
00:56:00So that was confirmed.
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00:57:07How much is true of the fact that ego depletion works,
00:57:11either only works or works more if you believe in it?
00:57:15That it's this self-fulfilling thing.
00:57:17If you believe that you have a limited amount of willpower,
00:57:19then it sort of manifests.
00:57:21But if you don't believe that, it's a protective mechanism.
00:57:24- Well, there's a really interesting idea
00:57:25that some people at Stanford published some work on that
00:57:30and we were intrigued by that.
00:57:33And so we tried to copy their experiment
00:57:37and we did find that if you give people
00:57:40a really strong sales pitch,
00:57:42that your willpower is unlimited,
00:57:46then at least when they first get depleted,
00:57:51they don't show the effect.
00:57:53And we did show when you get seriously depleted,
00:57:56then you show an even worse effect.
00:57:58So that belief that you have unlimited willpower is helpful.
00:58:02Think of the analogy of physical energy.
00:58:07If you somehow could be convinced
00:58:09that you have unlimited physical energy today,
00:58:12and then you go out for running a race.
00:58:15But first when you start to get tired,
00:58:17it'll probably help you continue to do it.
00:58:21But at some point it may backfire.
00:58:24My thought in the big picture is,
00:58:28if it were true that believing in unlimited willpower
00:58:31would give you unlimited willpower,
00:58:33you'd think most societies in the world
00:58:35would have that belief because--
00:58:39- They would have created some sort of cultural meme
00:58:41around it because it would have conferred
00:58:43such an improvement for everyone.
00:58:45- So much benefit to society,
00:58:47to having people with better self control.
00:58:51And yet most societies don't.
00:58:53There was some argument that some people in India
00:58:56have the opposite belief.
00:58:58And I wish to see more there.
00:59:01But it's very rare, most people seem to know.
00:59:05And I think they just have the experience
00:59:07that trying to exert control over a long period of time,
00:59:12you just can't keep it up.
00:59:15- What, if anything, has been accurate
00:59:20in some of the critiques around the original research?
00:59:25Or what's been most accurate,
00:59:26or has given you most reason to do so?
00:59:28- Okay, well at first we thought,
00:59:30first we were thinking that willpower
00:59:32is kind of a metaphorical thing.
00:59:34But, well okay, the brain has a limited amount of fuel
00:59:39and it used it up, so it has to recover.
00:59:43But then people started showing, you get people depleted
00:59:48and then you offer them a big financial reward
00:59:51if they can still perform well.
00:59:53Well, they can, they're extra depleted afterwards.
00:59:56But it's not that the brain is out of fuel,
00:59:59it just goes into a conservation mode.
01:00:01It turns out physical muscles are the same way.
01:00:04There are lab studies where you come into the lab
01:00:07and do physical exertions, or you have to press,
01:00:09and after a while your muscles get tired.
01:00:12And then the researchers will say,
01:00:14well I'll tell you what, I'll give you $10
01:00:16if you can do it once, pressing as hard as you did
01:00:18when you first walk in.
01:00:20Well, they can.
01:00:21It's still that there is a point
01:00:24at which your muscles can't work anymore.
01:00:26There's probably a point like that
01:00:27at which your willpower is so badly depleted
01:00:30that you can't do it, but in the laboratory
01:00:32would never get people to that extreme a situation.
01:00:36So, one big switch early was to shift
01:00:44from being out of fuel to conserving remaining fuel.
01:00:49And it makes sense.
01:00:50We evolved under conditions of uncertain food supply.
01:00:54Then people started linking it to the glucose,
01:01:01the chemical in your body that carries the energy
01:01:06from your stomach to your brain and muscles and so on.
01:01:09And found, oh this was kind of a surprise to me
01:01:13when this worked, but if people would eat something
01:01:16after they were depleted, that would get them back
01:01:18to perform well again.
01:01:20So that was intriguing.
01:01:25- Wasn't there, there was a great study done
01:01:26around the length of time of somebody being sent to jail
01:01:31by jurors or judges and how long it had been
01:01:40since they had their breakfast.
01:01:41Basically, if you end up in court, you probably want to go in
01:01:44at about 1.45 p.m. just after the lunch break
01:01:49or at 9 a.m. just after they've come in for breakfast.
01:01:51- Yes, yes, yes.
01:01:53Yeah, and some people argue about that.
01:01:54It's hard to get a perfect study done with real life data.
01:01:59But the curve was quite striking.
01:02:04And just about every experiment we've used
01:02:06where we give people some glucose in the middle,
01:02:10it does restore their performance.
01:02:13And then they often don't know.
01:02:15We started doing it with giving people lemonade.
01:02:18I was at Florida State and it was hot.
01:02:20And so people were glad to have a glass of lemonade.
01:02:22And you can mix it with Splenda or sugar.
01:02:25- Oh, so good. - And it tastes the same.
01:02:27And it can be double-blind, so the experimenter just pulls
01:02:30one out of the refrigerator and says this is for you.
01:02:33The experimenter doesn't know.
01:02:34If it's got glucose in it, it isn't sugar or just a sweetener.
01:02:38It tastes the same.
01:02:40People can't tell the difference.
01:02:41They're glad either way.
01:02:42But the Splenda had no effect on the data,
01:02:44whereas the sugar wiped out the--
01:02:46- That's so good.
01:02:48That's so good.
01:02:50- The glucose is the energy that's also used
01:02:52for your immune system.
01:02:53But it uses very uneven amounts.
01:03:00So when you're fighting off a cold,
01:03:02that's often why you wanna go to bed and just sleep it off
01:03:06and let your immune system have all the energy in there.
01:03:10Well, in our evolutionary history,
01:03:12we didn't have antibiotics or anything like that.
01:03:15If you got a cut on your foot and got infected,
01:03:19your body needed to fight that off.
01:03:21If you didn't get a cut,
01:03:23then you don't need extra immune system activity,
01:03:26but you'd need extra fuel for it to fight an infection
01:03:29or to survive a fever or anything like that.
01:03:31So it made sense to err on the side of conserving
01:03:35as much as possible.
01:03:37There is an interesting alternative theory here,
01:03:39which most people don't talk about,
01:03:45but I read it and I thought it's really quite good.
01:03:48Nothing quite fits everything,
01:03:51but this is the best alternative theory,
01:03:54which is that the sections in the brain
01:03:59that do self-control are really important,
01:04:01'cause self-control is really valuable
01:04:05for success in life in many different ways.
01:04:08And if you have high glucose around some nerve cells
01:04:11for a long period of time, it starts to kill them.
01:04:14It's best known diabetics.
01:04:19In the past, they would lose all feeling in their feet.
01:04:23Their blood sugar would run high,
01:04:25and so you would start to kill the nerve cells
01:04:29and you wouldn't feel it,
01:04:32so you'd hurt your foot and infections would happen
01:04:35and you wouldn't notice them.
01:04:37So it could be that after you exert self-control,
01:04:44the depletion effect is the brain
01:04:47letting itself cool off, as it were.
01:04:50You say, okay, we've been exerting self-control
01:04:53using willpower, that means those nerve cells
01:04:57in the front of the brain have been exposed
01:04:59to a high level of glucose.
01:05:01Well, we don't wanna burn 'em out,
01:05:03so let's not use self-control for a while,
01:05:07let them cool off and then I can use them again.
01:05:10That really fits a lot of the evidence.
01:05:15It's the most plausible alternative theory
01:05:21that would still mean most of the glucose,
01:05:25most of the depletion phenomena are real.
01:05:29It would just have a different interior
01:05:31mechanism that the brain automatically conserves its energy,
01:05:35but rather it needs to use different parts of the brain
01:05:40so that the nerve cells don't get wear and tear
01:05:44from an extended period of high glucose.
01:05:47- Beyond having more glucose
01:05:50across all of the work that you've done,
01:05:51what are the best, most evidence-based ways
01:05:54for people to improve their willpower?
01:05:58- Okay, well, improving self-control, which is the real goal,
01:06:02you can do that without improving willpower.
01:06:05- Can you distinguish for me
01:06:06the difference between a self-control--
01:06:08- Okay, so willpower would be the energy that you exert,
01:06:12but self-control also depends
01:06:14on keeping track of the behavior.
01:06:19So the easiest way to improve your self-control
01:06:24is to keep a record of what you're doing.
01:06:26Even my grandmother told me a long time ago,
01:06:29well, when you're a poor student and you don't have money,
01:06:32you just write down everything you spend
01:06:34and then you know how much you're spending
01:06:36and what you're spending it on.
01:06:39Or if you're trying to lose weight and keep it off,
01:06:42well, you gotta weigh yourself more carefully.
01:06:45Or if you're trying to take up an exercise program,
01:06:48tell your friends you're gonna do it
01:06:50and tell them you're gonna tell them each day
01:06:51did I exercise today.
01:06:54So improving the monitoring will improve self-control
01:06:59without needing any more willpower
01:07:01'cause it gives you more feedback.
01:07:04And I was gonna try to jog three times a week
01:07:07and I haven't jogged all week, so I better do it.
01:07:11It's easier to fool yourself if you don't keep track.
01:07:14And certainly if you don't know,
01:07:16it's very hard to regulate something that you don't know.
01:07:20In terms of improving the willpower,
01:07:22it seems to work like a muscle.
01:07:26And a lot of people have produced findings like this
01:07:29that if you exercise self-control on a regular basis,
01:07:32then you get better at it.
01:07:34I didn't know if that would work.
01:07:38We had an early study where it did work
01:07:43and then done a fair number of others
01:07:45and other people have too.
01:07:46There are a couple of meta-analyses combining
01:07:48results of a great many and saying,
01:07:50a great many studies and saying, yes, it does
01:07:54practice self-control.
01:07:55To design the study properly,
01:07:56you have to exercise self-control on one sphere
01:08:00and then measure self-control in something else
01:08:03to show that it's a general improvement.
01:08:05But it does seem to work.
01:08:08Or some of the biggest effects I've seen
01:08:10were this Australian group, they did several studies.
01:08:14One was they took students who had money trouble
01:08:17and they trained them to manage their money better.
01:08:19And they met with them once a month for several months
01:08:23or something and taught them how to manage their money.
01:08:26And so they did get better at that.
01:08:28But the measure, one key was they came to the laboratory
01:08:34and had to do self-control tasks
01:08:35that had nothing to do with money.
01:08:37There was just like maintaining focus on this
01:08:40while you're being distracted by that.
01:08:42They were better at that.
01:08:43They also reported on the questionnaire
01:08:46that they started studying better just 'cause they're working
01:08:50on managing their money better.
01:08:52But they also study, their study habits improved.
01:08:56After they finished dinner, they would clean up
01:08:59rather than just stack the dishes in the sink.
01:09:02They even said they ate healthier,
01:09:04which again is a sign of self-control.
01:09:08But as they point out, healthy food is more expensive
01:09:12than junk food.
01:09:14So it kind of went against what they were training
01:09:16self-control for, which is to manage their money better.
01:09:20But that also improved their diet.
01:09:24So they saw a whole variety of positive changes in there
01:09:29that came from, fitting the idea that self-control
01:09:33is sort of one central resource
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01:10:53I've been completely obsessed with this series
01:10:56that you've been doing on Substack about sexual novelty.
01:10:58What did you learn there?
01:10:59- I was intrigued with the idea
01:11:02that it's partly with thinking about pornography,
01:11:07it's so widely available.
01:11:10I've seen over the course of my life
01:11:12that that become more and more available
01:11:16and for better and for worse.
01:11:19But the novelty of it,
01:11:26it might've been Naomi Wolf or one of those who remarked
01:11:30that her generation,
01:11:32which I think was about the same as mine,
01:11:34was the last time a woman could have this huge effect
01:11:37on a man just by taking off her clothes
01:11:39and letting him see her naked body.
01:11:41But there was such a thrill just to see it.
01:11:44You know, when I was a kid,
01:11:45we didn't see pictures of naked women.
01:11:47One of my buddies would find a playboy
01:11:53that somebody had thrown away or something,
01:11:55but they didn't even show the full nudity.
01:11:58So you really didn't quite know
01:12:01what a woman entirely looked like.
01:12:03And even if you could find an occasional picture
01:12:07or something, it's not like endless amounts of pornography
01:12:11and lots of women and ads where they're showing everything.
01:12:16So some of the mystery is gone.
01:12:18And it made me think maybe there's some loss there
01:12:23that novelty is arousing,
01:12:27but it's a limited amount of novelty.
01:12:32You can only do something the first time once.
01:12:36It is only one first time.
01:12:38So in a way, it's a bit sad for young men
01:12:43to have all this available to them.
01:12:47And if it had been available when I was young,
01:12:49I doubt I would have resisted.
01:12:50I probably would have been curious enough
01:12:53to look at it all and so on.
01:12:57But in a way, I think I'm lucky that it wasn't available.
01:13:03But that way there was still novelty
01:13:07as I got into my 30s and 40s, which I hadn't explored yet.
01:13:11But if you've seen everything by the time you're 25
01:13:15or even by the time you're 20,
01:13:17there isn't as much novelty available.
01:13:22On the different sex partners,
01:13:26and that seems to be what people are shifting,
01:13:29that's kind of what I came to after writing those columns,
01:13:32that people are blazing through all the novelty
01:13:35and pornography.
01:13:37They're not doing as much of capitalizing on novelty
01:13:40within the relationship as of the second base plan.
01:13:45You just sort of gradually go from one step to the other.
01:13:49One of my young friends said,
01:13:51"Oh yeah, today I just did it again."
01:13:55From first contact on the dating app
01:13:57to having lots of sex under a week.
01:14:01It's just a few days.
01:14:02Whereas back in the day,
01:14:07the earlier day you had to practically be engaged
01:14:10before you could go all the way.
01:14:12Certainly when I grew up in the 70s,
01:14:17you had to have a series of interactions
01:14:21and you got the relationship.
01:14:23And then so the step-by-step, the novelty,
01:14:25you could appreciate.
01:14:28So the first time you undo a brassiere or whatever,
01:14:32oh, that's really exciting.
01:14:34But if you've had sex and done it all right away,
01:14:39that doesn't, I think, strengthen the relationship
01:14:44in the way that shared novel experiences,
01:14:48a series of them will do.
01:14:50I can't prove it on that, but that's a speculation.
01:14:54But going for novelty in terms of lots of different partners
01:14:57rather than novelty within one relationship
01:15:00of gradually exploring many different activities,
01:15:04that seems much less well-designed
01:15:06to produce healthy families, which is what society needs.
01:15:09And I guess I have to think
01:15:13for those fortunate young men who have sex
01:15:17with lots and lots of different women,
01:15:19is this really good preparation for marriage?
01:15:28- I think it would, you could cycle through women rapidly
01:15:31and get tired of them.
01:15:34- Do you think that- - And then you both settle down
01:15:35with one woman for 40 years.
01:15:37- Yeah, do you think that that predisposes men
01:15:41who've had a high body count before getting into marriage
01:15:44that even trying to tie,
01:15:46let's say that they've taken the red pill
01:15:48of your Substax Post series and they're gonna slow,
01:15:53you can only get to second base once.
01:15:55And if you hit a home run first time,
01:15:57then you've rounded all of them, basically.
01:15:59And we're gonna slowly titrate the sexual novelty over time.
01:16:04We're gonna get more experimental,
01:16:06but it's gonna be over a much more protracted timeline.
01:16:09Do you think that you can be sort of predisposed
01:16:11to not finding that as exciting?
01:16:13Is there a, basically,
01:16:14is there a lifetime Coolidge effect as well?
01:16:17- Yeah, somebody commented that on one of my Substax
01:16:19that after you've had sex with a dozen different women,
01:16:23then to go slow and get to second base with the next one
01:16:26is probably not that exciting.
01:16:29That is plausible, I'm not sure it's true.
01:16:31It does seem likely.
01:16:34- What was that story about the couple
01:16:40where the woman had never used her hand?
01:16:44- All right, yes, I remember reading that.
01:16:46I think it was in the
01:16:48"Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex,
01:16:50"But We're Afraid to Ask" book,
01:16:51which is one of the first best sellers
01:16:53of the public about sex, and she'd written to the physician
01:16:58and said they'd had a good sex life with her husband,
01:17:03and then gradually he couldn't perform as well.
01:17:08It got weaker and weaker and it stopped altogether,
01:17:10and it was kind of sad.
01:17:11She felt bad for him, and then she thought morals,
01:17:16women didn't do sexual things.
01:17:18But she said, "Well, I love my husband,
01:17:20"and we've been married a long time.
01:17:22"I'm not gonna worry about morality."
01:17:24And she went and bought a book about sex,
01:17:27which back in those days,
01:17:28there weren't that many things available.
01:17:31And it said if you put your hand on the man's genitals,
01:17:36it is exciting to them.
01:17:38So she said, "So I tried that,
01:17:39"and oh, he got harder than he had for years."
01:17:43And so it was a very nice, kind of sweet story.
01:17:48So that was the opposite extreme of novelty.
01:17:51They'd hardly done anything.
01:17:53And we forget, if we go back a century,
01:17:58the amount of female flesh a man would see in his lifetime
01:18:02is less probably than you can see in an hour of--
01:18:07- I mean, I was fascinated by that.
01:18:10What a weirdly, I guess it would be impossible
01:18:15to do that study now because sexual culture's so permissive
01:18:18and so sort of widely promoted
01:18:20that no one would have gone their entire life
01:18:23without what is sort of termed as second base.
01:18:27Actually, I lied, I lied.
01:18:28Apparently you can get to fourth base
01:18:30without going around second base.
01:18:32That is, you just go from home base to first,
01:18:37and then you go straight back again, apparently.
01:18:38And there's other bits that you can miss off.
01:18:40But I loved that story that you told
01:18:43about a series of experiments that were done
01:18:48showing pornography, normal pornography, BDSM pornography,
01:18:53and then educational sexual videos.
01:18:55And the increase in sexual frequency
01:18:58happened when everybody saw the porn for the first time.
01:19:02Because again, this was in the '60s or the '70s, I think,
01:19:05where porn was basically not available.
01:19:08But if you went from the extreme stuff
01:19:11to the more vanilla stuff,
01:19:13you didn't see the concordant increase in sexual desire.
01:19:18But if you escalated it,
01:19:20and this kind of goes to prove your theory
01:19:25that ever-increasing but steady escalation
01:19:30of sexual novelty over time, doing new things,
01:19:34exposure to that, not only within partners,
01:19:37but presumably across your lifetime, it seems to make sense.
01:19:39This isn't just a dyadic situation.
01:19:42It's gonna be stuff that you've done.
01:19:43If you have an explosive 20s,
01:19:47where you're just on the career run of your life,
01:19:50and then you settle down
01:19:52and you begin to start to titrate again,
01:19:54I have to assume that you need to almost treat yourself
01:19:57like you're someone whose sexual novelty
01:20:00needs to be shepherded with at least a little bit of care,
01:20:04because you want to still be excited to do things over time.
01:20:07And unfortunately, as much as you can say,
01:20:09you should love me so much.
01:20:11It should just be the excitement, the raw attraction,
01:20:14and the romance, and the rest of it.
01:20:15You need to respect the psychology.
01:20:17You need to respect Coolidge effect.
01:20:19You need to respect the way that we look at variety
01:20:23as being a stimulus.
01:20:25And yeah, I think it's just such a-
01:20:28- And ration it.
01:20:29Yeah. - And what, what?
01:20:30And ration it over time.
01:20:31Yeah, exactly. - Yeah.
01:20:32- So I mean, you've done, I love the disclaimer,
01:20:35and I'm gonna start to use it
01:20:37when I'm talking about spicy stuff too.
01:20:38You say at the top of pretty much all of the posts,
01:20:42this is a treatment on men.
01:20:44A separate treatment will be needed for women,
01:20:46but we can save that for another time.
01:20:48It's such a nice way to not have to caveat through.
01:20:50And we must remember that this would be important for-
01:20:54- Yeah.
01:20:54- Have you got any inclination?
01:20:55'Cause we're talking about men, the Coolidge effect,
01:20:58what's the refractory period from partner to partner.
01:21:00And for men, if they go from one partner
01:21:03to a different partner,
01:21:04they're able to perform more quickly
01:21:08as opposed to if it's the same one
01:21:09and they've got to go again.
01:21:12Have you got any idea what sexual novelty
01:21:16does to female sex drive?
01:21:18- Oh, it's much harder to get convincing data,
01:21:25anything on that.
01:21:26And so I can write what we do know about female sexuality
01:21:31and so on, but the role of novelty, I mean, it's not nothing,
01:21:39but it doesn't seem to be as powerful a driving force.
01:21:44I recall some years ago, someone reported a survey,
01:21:50I think it was first year college students at Southern Cal
01:21:54or one of the California universities.
01:21:56And they asked how many people would you like
01:21:58to have sex with for the rest of your life,
01:22:00assuming no constraints of marriage or laws or disease
01:22:04or anything like that if it were up to you.
01:22:07And the women's response average was two and a half.
01:22:11So they wanted to have a fling or two and then settle down.
01:22:14The average for the men was 64.
01:22:16(laughing)
01:22:18- And that's the average.
01:22:24So you've got some impressive outliers there
01:22:27to bring that back down.
01:22:28- Yeah, there definitely were.
01:22:29'Cause they said actually a lot of people just said one.
01:22:32Presumably these were people who were still virgins
01:22:34and they were just hoping to have the first one.
01:22:36- Oh wow, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:22:39- So both men and women, there were a lot saying,
01:22:41I would like to have one.
01:22:43But a lot of the men wanted to have a really high number.
01:22:47And not very many women were saying,
01:22:52I wanna go have sex with 100 men.
01:22:54So I'm not doing it now.
01:22:59There was that woman in the UK
01:23:00who did it all in one day, right?
01:23:02- A thousand, yeah, Bonnie Blue.
01:23:03I had a debate with her on this show.
01:23:05I moderated a debate with her on the show.
01:23:08- It wasn't a thousand in one day, right?
01:23:11- No, it was.
01:23:12You're talking about Lily Phillips who did a hundred
01:23:14and then Bonnie Blue had sex with a thousand men in one day.
01:23:18Which even if you just run the numbers is insane,
01:23:20but the whole thing was recorded.
01:23:21It's a real, I mean, more than anything,
01:23:25it's an endurance feat.
01:23:27More than it is one of sexual novelty.
01:23:29But I mean, what you're looking at there
01:23:31is basically someone who's kind of the Michael Jordan
01:23:34or the LeBron James or the Tiger Woods of socio-sexuality.
01:23:37It's just somebody that's so far,
01:23:39she is the tail of the tail.
01:23:41She's the Elon Musk of having sex.
01:23:44And I had a conversation with her.
01:23:46I sat down, I sat across from her.
01:23:48She was perfectly cordial.
01:23:49She had her defenses up at the start,
01:23:51but when she realized it wasn't gonna be
01:23:52a cantankerous take down conversation,
01:23:55it was really nice.
01:23:57And I was looking, I mean,
01:23:59I think I'm a pretty good judge of character.
01:24:01And I was looking for, is there some deception going on here?
01:24:06Is there some secret trauma that's leaking out?
01:24:08Is there whatever?
01:24:09And by the end of it, my summary is just,
01:24:13she is the most extreme
01:24:17socio-sexual being that I've ever seen.
01:24:20She just is able to completely detach emotions
01:24:23from having sex.
01:24:25It's not alchemizing some childhood wound
01:24:28in a way that I think a lot of BDSM and kink actually is.
01:24:31There seems to be a good amount of data coming out
01:24:33that a good bit of BDSM and kink is preferences for that
01:24:38are predisposed by some situations
01:24:42people have been through in childhood.
01:24:43That was Catherine Page Harden from UT.
01:24:45She was teaching me about that a couple of weeks ago
01:24:47and a couple of other conversations I've had.
01:24:49It's definitely unique, but I mean, yeah,
01:24:56maybe there'll be studies done on her at some point
01:24:58in the future, who knows?
01:25:00- The one who did a hundred said she wouldn't recommend it.
01:25:02- Yeah, the one who did a thousand
01:25:03said that she'd do it again.
01:25:05So again, the people at the extremes,
01:25:09the people who were at the tail of the tail, they'll-
01:25:11- Okay, well, that's what she wants, good for her.
01:25:12And it must've been fun for the thousand men too.
01:25:16I wonder, does she want to get married at some date?
01:25:19- That would be actually,
01:25:21that could be a fix for your incel problem.
01:25:25That could be, we could just put a thousand of the men
01:25:28who was struggling with the in seldom thing in there.
01:25:30And then that's a thousand fewer men
01:25:33who are maybe thinking that sex is inaccessible, who knows?
01:25:36- Yes, my wife thinks they're just caught up
01:25:41by the publicity that's great sex
01:25:43is going on all over the place.
01:25:44And she says they probably just want
01:25:49the really attractive women,
01:25:50which is unrealistic for them.
01:25:52She wonders, have these incels made a serious effort
01:25:57to date say the fat girls or the others
01:26:01who aren't nearly as much in demand?
01:26:03Traditionally, historically,
01:26:06that's what people sometimes did.
01:26:08You know, they found someone at about the same level,
01:26:10but that was before there was the assumption
01:26:15that lots of people are having
01:26:17lots of great sex all the time.
01:26:19Which I'm told by the researchers who are studying this
01:26:22is that it's not nearly as wild as that.
01:26:26And that the Hollywood version
01:26:30of what a young person's sex life is not realistic.
01:26:35And it may be realistic even in Hollywood.
01:26:37But you know, those are beautiful people
01:26:41with lots of money and status and so on.
01:26:43So I don't know, I don't have to,
01:26:49you said, you know, an expert on this.
01:26:51You know, well, have you really tried
01:26:52to date the less attractive girls
01:26:54who were wishing for more attention and action?
01:26:57If you insist you have to have the gorgeous one,
01:27:02well, you may be disappointed
01:27:05unless you're a big, rich, rich, handsome man.
01:27:09There was a really interesting article
01:27:14that was posted by my friend Rob Henderson
01:27:15a couple of days ago.
01:27:16And he was talking about people assume
01:27:19that it's this small number of men
01:27:21that are capturing sex from a large number of women.
01:27:23But it's not, it's a socio-sexual few at the top.
01:27:27And yeah, there is a little bit of a skew within there.
01:27:30But most people aren't having that much sex.
01:27:35Many people aren't having any sex at all.
01:27:38And there is a small number of people
01:27:40having loads of sex with each other.
01:27:43And that's just a really interesting wrinkle, I think,
01:27:47in the sort of 80/20 discourse
01:27:49that's been going on for a while.
01:27:50And I knew that this had been, this had got turned upside down
01:27:54three or four years ago by a friend, Alex Date Psych.
01:27:57And then Rob re-reported on it the other day
01:27:59and basically found out the same thing.
01:28:01You've just got this group of people
01:28:02who want to have sex with lots of people.
01:28:04And yeah, everybody else is, I don't know,
01:28:08looking at it, maybe thinking it was good.
01:28:10I guess one interesting thing is probably more men
01:28:13would want to be in that group of highly socio-sexual people,
01:28:17whereas fewer women desire to be in.
01:28:20Most women who want to be in it are in it, presumably,
01:28:23whereas most men who want to be in it can't be in it.
01:28:26- Right, yeah, there's a big difference there, again,
01:28:28with the men wanting much more of it,
01:28:31the average man wanting much more in terms of variety.
01:28:35Yeah, I was talking to another expert, Eli Finkel,
01:28:41and he said, yeah, the one-night stand thing,
01:28:43that's, it's not entirely a myth, but it's way overstated.
01:28:47It's quite rare for people to get together
01:28:50and have sex just one time.
01:28:52I don't know the basis for that, but he knew.
01:28:56He knows much more than I do about that sort of thing.
01:28:59- Roy Biomanster, ladies and gentlemen.
01:29:02Roy, you rule, I love your stuff.
01:29:04Everyone needs to go and check out your sub stack.
01:29:06Go and subscribe, The Existential Contrarian.
01:29:09- Right, yes.
01:29:10- Yeah, The Existential Contrarian.
01:29:12It is a crime how, I mean, you're new on sub stack,
01:29:15but everyone needs to go and do it.
01:29:16Check out the series on sexual novelty.
01:29:17I'm a massive fan.
01:29:18I read everything that you put out.
01:29:19I think you're great.
01:29:20And I look forward to whatever you're doing next
01:29:22because every opportunity to read what you do
01:29:25and to talk to you is a real treat.
01:29:27- Okay, well, thank you, Chris.
01:29:28It's been a great interview
01:29:29and a total pleasure for me as well.
01:29:31- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:29:34Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:29:36by the internet just yet.
01:29:37Here's another one that you should watch.
01:29:40Go on.

Key Takeaway

Roy Baumeister argues that distinct biological and evolutionary pressures have shaped men for large-group competition and high-risk variability, while women are specialized for intimate, stable social structures.

Highlights

Men are more biologically expendable than women, which historically allowed cultures to risk male lives for expansion and infrastructure without threatening population recovery.

Gender differences in sociality suggest women excel in one-to-one intimate relationships, while men are naturally inclined toward large-group cooperation and competition.

The 'Greater Male Variability Hypothesis' explains why men are overrepresented at both the top (geniuses, leaders) and bottom (homeless, incarcerated) of society.

Evolutionary pressures favor risk-taking in men because high-status success was historically the primary gateway to reproduction, whereas women reached reproductive goals by playing it safe.

Modern gender discourse often suffers from 'toxic compassion' and a lack of trade-off analysis, ignoring the functional reasons behind historical sex-based roles.

Willpower acts as a limited resource similar to a muscle; it can be depleted through use (ego depletion) but also strengthened through consistent practice and monitoring.

The proliferation of high-novelty sexual content like pornography may be desensitizing men and reducing the value of gradual intimacy within long-term relationships.

Timeline

The Expendability of Men and Social Architecture

Roy Baumeister opens the discussion by explaining his theory that cultures flourish by 'exploiting' men because they are more biologically expendable than women. From a reproductive standpoint, a tribe can lose many men and still produce a full next generation, but losing women causes a population collapse. This reality led to men being tasked with building the physical and institutional structures of the world, including roads, banks, and governments. Baumeister notes that while women are vital partners in human flourishing, the creation of large-scale social systems has historically been a male-driven endeavor. This section establishes the foundational idea that society utilizes male risk-taking for its own growth and stability.

One-to-One vs. Large Group Sociality

The speaker explores the psychological differences in how the sexes interact socially, contrasting one-to-one intimacy with large-group cooperation. Women are generally more invested in intimate pairs, a trait rooted in the primary biological bond between mother and child. In contrast, men show a distinct tendency to form and function within larger hierarchies, which is essential for activities like warfare, business, and scientific exploration. Baumeister cites studies showing that young boys are more welcoming of third-party peers in play, whereas girls often focus on maintaining an exclusive pair. He also notes that male 'emotional reserve' is a tactical advantage in large-group economic or competitive environments where vulnerability can be a liability. This divergence explains why institutional structures are predominantly shaped by male group dynamics.

Intrasexual Competition and Gossip

This section challenges the myth that women are less competitive than men, arguing instead that their competition is more covert and focused on the romantic sphere. Baumeister discusses research by Tanya Reynolds showing that women use 'reputational blackening' and gossip to undermine rivals for male attention. Interestingly, this gossip is often framed as 'concern' for the rival to maintain a non-malicious social appearance while still delivering negative information. The competition is most intense when the rival is perceived as highly attractive or a threat to social standing. Baumeister emphasizes that while male competition is overt and hierarchical, female competition is subtle and centered on maintaining one's own desirability within a social network. This illustrates that both sexes are highly competitive, just through different strategic channels.

Greater Male Variability and the IQ Extremes

Baumeister addresses the 'Greater Male Variability Hypothesis,' which posits that men show more extreme traits than women at both ends of the spectrum. This is evident in height, physical strength, and most controversially, intelligence, where there are more male geniuses but also more males with severe cognitive disabilities. He suggests a genetic 'Pet Theory' involving the XY chromosome, where the lack of a backup X chromosome in males allows mutations to manifest more frequently. Evolutionarily, nature 'gambles' with men because many men historically did not reproduce at all, allowing bad mutations to be flushed out quickly while good ones spread rapidly. This variability explains why men predominate in both high-prestige roles like CEOs and low-status categories like the homeless or imprisoned. It reframes the conversation from 'men vs. women' to the specific biological distribution of male traits.

Risk-Taking, Throwing Stones, and Evolution

The conversation shifts to physical and behavioral traits such as throwing accuracy, dodging, and risk-taking. Baumeister and the host discuss how boys have an innate impulse to throw stones, a trait linked to early human survival strategies like group scavenging and deterring predators. Risk-taking is identified as a primary male strategy because, historically, only high-achieving or high-status men were chosen as mates by women. For women, playing it safe was a reliable path to reproduction, but for men, safety often meant genetic extinction. This led to a lineage of men who were biologically predisposed to take massive risks for potential high rewards. The section concludes by noting that even in modern activities like chess or Scrabble, men's higher obsession and drive for top-tier ranking reflect these ancestral motivations.

Safety Concerns and the Scientific Enterprise

Baumeister discusses the rising priority of 'safety' in modern culture and its impact on fields like science. He cites research showing that women have much higher concerns for physical and social safety, which can lead to a preference for excluding dissenting voices rather than confronting them in open debate. He introduces the concept of 'adversarial collaboration,' noting that men are generally more willing to risk being proven wrong in an experiment than women are. This trend toward silencing and censorship is presented as a detriment to the scientific search for truth. The speakers also critique 'toxic compassion' in education, such as grade inflation, which removes the hierarchical competition that traditionally engages male students. They argue that ignoring sex-based trade-offs leads to dysfunctional institutional policies that fail both sexes.

Ego Depletion and the Muscle of Willpower

Roy Baumeister explains his famous research on 'ego depletion,' the idea that willpower is a finite energy source that gets exhausted through use. He defends the theory against recent replication critiques, arguing that while the brain may conserve energy rather than run completely out, the phenomenon of reduced self-control after exertion is undeniable. He discusses the role of glucose as a fuel for self-control and mentions how a simple sugary drink can temporarily restore performance. To improve willpower, he suggests treating it like a muscle that requires regular exercise and 'monitoring' or record-keeping of one's own behavior. He highlights that practicing self-control in one area, such as financial management, often leads to improvements in unrelated areas like study habits or diet. This segment provides practical psychological advice based on decades of social psychology research.

Sexual Novelty and the Future of Relationships

The final section focuses on sexual novelty and its impact on modern men, particularly through the lens of pornography and dating apps. Baumeister speculates that the 'Coolidge Effect'—the drive for sexual variety—is being over-stimulated by the endless novelty available online, potentially desensitizing men to the rewards of long-term intimacy. He discusses the 'rationing' of novelty, suggesting that moving too quickly through sexual 'bases' in a new relationship can shorten its psychological lifespan. The speakers touch on the rise of the 'Incel' subculture, suggesting that a disconnect between male desires and modern social rules is creating a class of men who feel rejected by society. Baumeister concludes by emphasizing the need for healthy family structures and the importance of understanding the distinct motivational architectures of men and women to maintain social cohesion.

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