00:00:00Given all of the work that you've done, why is it that some goals feel effortless and
00:00:05others feel like a chore?
00:00:07Yeah, it's such an interesting question and that was what I wanted to figure out with
00:00:13this book because I find with my own life, I'm productive on a daily basis, I'm focused
00:00:18on a daily, as you would hope, given I study this stuff for a living, looking at the research
00:00:22for this stuff for a living, but there were still goals that kind of fell by the wayside
00:00:28for me.
00:00:30Exercise equipment that was in the basement that I hadn't really followed through with,
00:00:35things that didn't really fire me up inside that I found that I wasn't really accomplishing.
00:00:41That was what set me on this journey to write this book is seeing that we all have a sort
00:00:46of graveyard of forgotten goals.
00:00:49Every single person on the planet does and so what is it that actually separates the goals
00:00:55that we're able to achieve and follow through with from the ones that we're not?
00:01:01When you dig into the research on this topic, I dug into the academic literature on this
00:01:06topic.
00:01:07I actually spoke with a lot of Buddhist monks who know more about intentionality than almost
00:01:13any demographic, I would argue, even the scientists that study intentionality and goal attainment,
00:01:19all in an effort to untangle that web of essentially goal attainment.
00:01:26Why is it that we attain some goals and others, they feel meaningless, we kick them down the
00:01:34street for another day or they're just not something that fires us up inside?
00:01:40You discover a web of factors.
00:01:41You discover procrastination is one angle.
00:01:46We procrastinate on some things when we follow through on others.
00:01:50Values are another angle actually.
00:01:52Values my eyes have always glazed over when I've heard that, "What are you drinking there
00:01:55by the way?
00:01:56Looks good."
00:01:57This is one of the rare times that I'm drinking something that I'm not sponsored by.
00:02:04This is a bloom pop.
00:02:06Hold on, by the way, everyone's like, "Fuck, I want to know what it is after procrastination."
00:02:11He was talking about values.
00:02:13This is bloom pop.
00:02:16My friend Greg Laveckia, he owns this company called Bloom.
00:02:19They do greens drinks.
00:02:21This is like a poppy or an ollipop if you're familiar with that.
00:02:25No.
00:02:26Is that a UK thing?
00:02:27No.
00:02:28I'm in Texas, dude.
00:02:29Oh, okay.
00:02:30I'm Canadian, though.
00:02:31Okay.
00:02:32Maybe it hasn't got there.
00:02:33You guys have just received the fucking wheel.
00:02:38This bloom pop stuff fucking rips, dude.
00:02:40It's so tasty.
00:02:41I'm a massive fan of a chilled beverage.
00:02:42I'm a big chilled beverage guy.
00:02:44So highly recommend this is the raspberry lemonade.
00:02:48And I'm not sponsored, but Greg was at my house for the Super Bowl and he brought around cases
00:02:54and cases of it.
00:02:55So I'm nice.
00:02:56Well, shame on him for not sponsoring you, first of all.
00:02:59But yes, there's this web of things that affect how many of our goals we attain from procrastinating
00:03:09the answer from procrastination to values, to desire.
00:03:14There's a lot of science behind desire as well and social contagion.
00:03:18And so you discover just how many little nodes there are.
00:03:21But a lot of the little things that either lead us to do something or not, they seem to
00:03:28orbit around both aversion, which leads to procrastination, as well as values, which sounds
00:03:34like an incredibly fluffy topic, but I promise it isn't, there's real science behind that
00:03:40too.
00:03:41Okay.
00:03:42Talk to me about the science behind values.
00:03:43Okay.
00:03:44Yes.
00:03:45So whenever I hear the word values, my eyes have glazed over because I think, you know,
00:03:50some corporate consultant will come in and they'll give you a sheet of paper and there's
00:03:54a hundred values on it.
00:03:56And this is exactly what comes to my mind when I've heard it.
00:04:00And there'll be a hundred words on the page and they'll circle the things that you value
00:04:05most on this page.
00:04:06And there'll be words like humor and grace and love and health and fitness.
00:04:13So, you know, all the things that we all care about.
00:04:16And so, you know, part of me will want to circle the whole page because I think, how can I be
00:04:21against any of this stuff?
00:04:23But all you have to do to figure out values is go to Google scholar and type in values.
00:04:27The research does come right up.
00:04:30There is incredible research, in my opinion, that was started by Shalom Schwartz.
00:04:37He's probably the world's foremost expert on values in the world where essentially there
00:04:43are 12 different fundamental motivations that we all have on a deep and fundamental level.
00:04:53So these vary from, you know, looking at you, self-direction would be one aspect.
00:05:01Accomplishment is another strong value for a lot of people, but they vary, right?
00:05:06Pleasure is a fundamental human value as well, which is one of my highest.
00:05:11Self-direction and pleasure are my highest.
00:05:13So I love going my own way, doing my own thing, thinking my own thoughts, but I love a gigantic
00:05:21plate of butter chicken at the end of the day, for example.
00:05:23So we all have a different combination of these 12 values.
00:05:29From self-direction to conformity is actually a fundamental value, to tradition, humility
00:05:35is a fundamental value as well, to benevolence, so kindness, universalism, which is protecting
00:05:41the welfare of people and of nature.
00:05:44I have the wheel in front of me here, so I'm cheating a little bit with the ones I missed.
00:05:48So self-direction, stimulation, which is loving novelty, pleasure, which is called hedonism
00:05:53in the research, but that has a lot of, you know, sultry connotations, I guess.
00:05:59Achievement power is a fundamental human value, curious, it's lowest overall, cross-culturally
00:06:06especially.
00:06:07Face is a value, so how you come across other people, that's what that means.
00:06:12Security is a fundamental value, so that's personal security and societal security.
00:06:17That's been going up in recent years.
00:06:20Tradition got that conformity, I think I mentioned, yeah, humility, universalism, and benevolence.
00:06:24So these 12 fundamental values, we are all a distinct combination of these 12.
00:06:33We have some in spades, like for me, self-direction and pleasure/hedonism, and some are super low
00:06:40for us.
00:06:41So power is one of my lowest values, conformity is one of my lowest, tradition is one of my
00:06:45lowest, and you know, like attracts likes, so we're probably very similar, listeners are
00:06:50probably very similar in these regards, but we all have different values that are strongest
00:06:56for us, and these are what motivate us the most on a deep fundamental human level.
00:07:05Goals on values though.
00:07:07No, no, so goals, the interesting thing about goals that I really started to believe in speaking
00:07:20with the monks, you're right, goals are not values, but I think goals and values are both
00:07:26almost intentions in our life, right?
00:07:29Because a value is something that we intend to be over the course of our life, right?
00:07:35We intend to be somebody who is secure, and so that might lead us to different priorities,
00:07:42like fitness for example.
00:07:43A lot of people invest in fitness for that value of security.
00:07:47Other people might value the accomplishment value, becoming better.
00:07:52Other people might, you know, to have a body that they feel proud of, for example.
00:07:56And goals are intentions as well, right?
00:08:00Because there's something that we plan to do over a longer period of time.
00:08:04And values are intentions as well, because they're something that we intend to be.
00:08:09And so this was the very interesting connection is, you know, an intention is just a plan that
00:08:15we're going to do something.
00:08:17And so values are a type of intention, priorities are a type of intention, right?
00:08:24Because they're something that we plan to be.
00:08:26They kind of live between our values and our goals.
00:08:31Goals are a type of intention, because they're something that we plan to do.
00:08:36Priorities are goals.
00:08:37And also the plans that we make are intentions.
00:08:39And the things that are on our to-do list on a daily basis are intentions.
00:08:44So this is the fascinating thing, this is why the book is called Intentional, because we
00:08:48have all these different layers of intention in our life.
00:08:52And so by understanding these layers, and how they can work together with one another, that
00:09:00becomes a superpower.
00:09:02That is one of the best things that we can do for goal attainment.
00:09:05Okay.
00:09:06Explain to me how all of these different things slot together.
00:09:08I imagine that you must have a hierarchy of the way that these things end up becoming a
00:09:13pyramid.
00:09:14Yes.
00:09:15Oh, yes.
00:09:16They are kind of shaped like a pyramid, because you can think of the, I'm flipping through
00:09:20the book.
00:09:21I don't know, what's the ratio between how many people listen to these things versus watch
00:09:26your interviews?
00:09:27Well, now that you can do video on Spotify, the audio platforms aren't even insulated from
00:09:34having to look at us.
00:09:35So it's pretty high.
00:09:36I mean, even just YouTube versus Spotify is nearly pretty 50/50.
00:09:41There's a lot.
00:09:42Audio is huge.
00:09:43Yeah.
00:09:44Audio is actually probably about 60%.
00:09:46But yeah, a lot of people will be looking, but you might have to describe what you're
00:09:52about to show for the people who aren't.
00:09:53Okay.
00:09:54So I was just flipping through the book while you were chatting, and there's one of my wife's
00:09:57hairs on the book for some reason.
00:09:58So this is something in the book that I call the intention stack.
00:10:02It's flipped on my screen, but it'll probably flip that properly.
00:10:05It looks great.
00:10:06Okay, perfect.
00:10:07So you can see, how's this for production quality, holding up a picture from the book?
00:10:12Elite.
00:10:13Absolutely elite.
00:10:14This is top tier, S tier production quality right here.
00:10:18So you can see that the width of one of our intentions is how long we express it over,
00:10:26right?
00:10:27So at the very bottom of this, it's kind of shaped like a funnel almost.
00:10:32We have our present intentions.
00:10:34These are the things that are on our to do list, right?
00:10:37We have a tiny intention to tie our shoelaces to go for a run or something.
00:10:42And then we have above the present intentions.
00:10:45Now you got me all self-conscious because so many people watch your podcasts.
00:10:48I think, how are my nails today?
00:10:51Because my nails are- You look fantastic.
00:10:55So above the present intentions we have are our plans, which are a bit broader.
00:11:00So a present intention to tie your shoelaces might fit into a plan to go for a run.
00:11:05And that might fit into even something broader than that, which is a goal to run a marathon
00:11:10in a certain amount of time, which might fit into a broader intention than that called a
00:11:15priority, which might fit into becoming ultra fit, which might fit into a value, which we
00:11:20talked about.
00:11:22So fitness value actually varies depending on gender, which is interesting for fitness
00:11:28type priorities, where as women are more likely to see becoming fitter as an expression of
00:11:35pleasure, right?
00:11:36Because they feel better in their bodies.
00:11:38Whereas men tend to err more on other values like security, right?
00:11:43Feeling strong and stable in their body, as well as values like accomplishment.
00:11:49So this is what I call the intention stack in the book, where there's this beautiful
00:11:55alignment that can happen when we have a goal that we set, which is kind of a medium term
00:12:01intention in our life.
00:12:03When that is aligned with a value, that becomes far, far more motivating than a goal that isn't.
00:12:10So to keep with the fitness example, I think a lot of us build our fitness goals around
00:12:17the value of face, right, how we come across other people, right?
00:12:20I want six-pack abs by beach season so I can look incredible, whatever it might look like.
00:12:28I like butter chicken too much for goals like this.
00:12:32I'd like a true Canadian.
00:12:34Yeah, yeah.
00:12:35Poutine, beaver tails, you know, hit all the Canadian staples.
00:12:39Poutine is actually delicious.
00:12:40You know poutine, right?
00:12:41Yeah.
00:12:42Okay.
00:12:43Okay, good.
00:12:44So that is one of our strong cultural exports, but if you don't value face, that goal to look
00:12:52a certain way by a certain amount of time, that's not going to be motivating for you.
00:12:56And you're going to find that you have this headwind for the goal all throughout the process
00:13:01where if you value security or benevolence, for example, having a goal to develop an incredible
00:13:10cardiovascular system for longevity and to be able to play with your grandkids late age,
00:13:16whatever it might look like, that's far more aligned to not only your values, but because
00:13:21your values make up who you are, there's that motivational alignment too.
00:13:26And so goals feel far more effortless in that way.
00:13:28A quick aside, if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to be, even though
00:13:33you eat well and stay active, there might be a reason for that.
00:13:36As we age, our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker
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00:14:39Why is it the case then that intentions feel slippery?
00:14:43Because a lot of the time we have, we start off with an intention, and over time we end
00:14:50up doing things that aren't aligned with that intention.
00:14:53Now sometimes that's because we've genuinely upgraded to something new, our intention has
00:14:59been supplanted by a different one, but other times it just feels like we're not acting
00:15:04intentionally.
00:15:05We kind of look back on our day and we ask ourselves what did I contribute to or what
00:15:10did I do, and you don't really know.
00:15:13What do you think about the intentionality as an idea?
00:15:18Yeah, so that's the interesting thing about intention.
00:15:21So intention at the same time is not only the key to accomplishing our goals, it often leads
00:15:28us to not accomplish our goals.
00:15:30So we have the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
00:15:35And it's because, and I've really started to see goals as something different over the course
00:15:43of writing this book and chatting with the scientists, but also more so chatting with
00:15:49the Buddhist monks in writing this book where there's kind of a reframe I think that we have
00:15:54to go through with the goals that we set, where we see a goal as something that we are going
00:16:00to accomplish or that we should compare our results to, right?
00:16:06But I've started to view goals, and I think this is a much better frame for them, as almost
00:16:11a prediction, right?
00:16:13Every goal is a prediction where you believe your current and your planned actions will
00:16:22take you, right?
00:16:24And so often those predictions, those goals, which are really predictions in disguise, they
00:16:31turn into expectations for how things will go, which then turn into disappointment when
00:16:38we inevitably aren't predicting the future properly, which we're horrible at predicting
00:16:43the future, right?
00:16:45We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone, we don't know if the hot water tank
00:16:50is going to break in our house and flood our basement and upend all of it.
00:16:53We don't know if a kid is going to get sick and have to stay home.
00:16:57We don't know how things are going to end up.
00:17:00But when goals are just predictions in disguise, I really think we have to internalize that
00:17:06idea and edit our goals as we go on, right?
00:17:10Because we develop this attachment to how we believe things are going to go.
00:17:16And so we set a goal, we develop an attachment to it, turns into an expectation, which turns
00:17:21into an inevitable disappointment usually.
00:17:24To take New Year's resolutions, for example, which have mostly fallen by the wayside by
00:17:29the time people will listen to this podcast or watch it, 92% of us fail at the New Year's
00:17:35resolutions we make because we set them with these beautiful hopes, right?
00:17:40We're like that classic trope of somebody who just arrived in New York City and she hops
00:17:49off the bus and she's got this big smile on her face and then cut to a year later when
00:17:56the future that she didn't predict ends up happening and then she's in her one bedroom
00:18:00apartment looking all sad or something.
00:18:03The same thing happens with our goals because they really are predictions in disguise.
00:18:07So holding them a bit more loosely, and I think editing them and dropping them is also a really
00:18:14helpful strategy.
00:18:15Holding them is not something that's fixed, but that we need to revise over time and then
00:18:20often drop when they're not working out is an incredible strategy for actually following
00:18:25through with them because we get closer to what we actually want.
00:18:29There has to be a difference between default intentions and deliberate intentions though.
00:18:36Yeah, and this was a surprising thing that really came up in the research where you think
00:18:46of an intention as being always deliberate, right?
00:18:48We intend to do something so we do it or not, right, a lot of the time.
00:18:54But there really are these two types of intentions.
00:18:57So like I was saying a little bit ago, an intention is just a plan that we're going to do something.
00:19:03We set plans to do things both automatically, right, which are called habits, right?
00:19:10So you wake up in the morning and maybe your phone wakes you up and so you tap, you swipe
00:19:15around between a few different apps and you respond.
00:19:19That's habit energy, which is what monks call just living on our default intentions.
00:19:24But eventually a time will come when you snap out of those default intentions that you have.
00:19:31When you're lying in bed, you know, you're not really feeling what you're doing.
00:19:36And so you think, okay, what do I really want here in this situation?
00:19:41What do I really want to get out of my day?
00:19:44What do I really need to accomplish?
00:19:47We all have these little moments of awakening where we go from being on autopilot mode, just
00:19:52doing things in response to whatever is happening around us, to tapping into something that is
00:19:58called our self-reflective capacity, which is our ability to look inward to where we
00:20:04really wish to be going, what we really want to be getting out of a situation.
00:20:09And interestingly, you know, so we go from living on default intention to these deliberate
00:20:15intentions and we snap out of just this autopilot mode and really decide where to go.
00:20:22It's quite a beautiful transition actually.
00:20:25The more we do that, the more deliberately intentional we become and the more we end up
00:20:32accomplishing of what we want, right?
00:20:34We need these moments of awakening.
00:20:36Where do our defaults come from?
00:20:37Oh, I love these questions.
00:20:42They come from a lot of different places.
00:20:43So I remember early on in the writing journey asking a monk, where do intentions come from
00:20:52in general?
00:20:54And he listed a lot of different sources that actually mapped on top of the research from
00:20:59the social environments that we're a part of, right?
00:21:01We have this phenomenon of social contagion where, you know, there's the classic saying
00:21:07where the average of the five people we spend our most time with.
00:21:11We have our desire to avoid pain and experience greater pleasure.
00:21:17We have, you know, and so that leads us to walk up and say hi to somebody at a cafe or
00:21:24just connect with somebody or go on Tinder, whatever it looks like, right?
00:21:30But we have our biology too, which, you know, is probably connected a little bit with the
00:21:34Tinder example.
00:21:35But, you know, we're on a road trip, for example, and we feel the urge to go to the washroom.
00:21:40And so we set an intention to stop at the next, you know, rest stop, for example.
00:21:45But we also have, so those are the more default places that intentions tend to come from.
00:21:51But then we have this gradient where we transition from living on default, living on autopilot
00:21:58mode, just not really achieving the goals that we set, but, you know, doing fine.
00:22:04We're kind of maintaining the life that we have.
00:22:08We go from being on deliberate or default autopilot mode to being more deliberate about what we
00:22:14do.
00:22:15So one of those places that intentions come from are the lessons we've learned, right?
00:22:19So you listen to an incredible book, a great podcast, you read a book, you listen to Chris
00:22:25or the other Chris, me, you know, sharing ideas or whatever it might look like, you learn something.
00:22:32And what that does is it puts a learning loop in your mind so that when you encounter the
00:22:37same situation in the future, you'll respond with a different intention from the one that
00:22:43you had originally.
00:22:45The deepest ones come from a place beyond that, right?
00:22:48I think one of the times I was on in the past, you know, we were chatting about scatter focus,
00:22:53this mind wandering mode where we just let our mind roam free and we find that it wanders
00:22:58to the future a remarkable amount of time.
00:23:02Forty eight percent of the time that our mind is wandering, it's thinking about the future.
00:23:05So we're taking a shower, for example, or we're going for a run, we're going for a walk and
00:23:10we're listening to classical music or something with a notepad in our pocket.
00:23:14And we always unearth ideas.
00:23:16We always unearth plans and we always tap into this intentional capacity that's in our mind
00:23:25to set different intentions from the ones that we would be doing on default.
00:23:30So it looks very interesting in practice where, you know, often becoming more intentional to
00:23:36break out of the mold, it looks like more wandering sometimes because that gives us a different
00:23:43way to go than the one that we would be inclined to do by default.
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00:24:33It's interesting the difference between giving yourself enough room so that you can actually
00:24:40allow ideas to come to the surface.
00:24:42You can't white knuckle creativity to the line that I love.
00:24:47It sort of needs to emerge spontaneously, but also that gets perilously close to not taking
00:24:53the wheel, which is just living on default intentions and not really having that much
00:24:59structure and not really choosing the direction that you're going in or taking agency.
00:25:04Life happens to you, you don't happen to life.
00:25:08I think a lot of people struggle with the tension between structure and sort of serendipity
00:25:17might be a good way to put it from a cognitive standpoint.
00:25:21Yeah.
00:25:22And it's very interesting, the little gaps in our day as well, where that's sometimes
00:25:29where our greatest intentions come from.
00:25:31It's in these little moments between things.
00:25:34So if we're having a conversation, right after this conversation, we pick up our phone
00:25:38or something, you know, intentions might never occur to us.
00:25:43That would be incredibly valuable to us both.
00:25:46If you're walking to a meeting or something, right, you're at your office or something,
00:25:50you're walking to a different office in your building.
00:25:53And on the way there, you're on your phone.
00:25:57Intentions aren't going to occur to you because you don't tap into this wandering mode.
00:26:01So there really are these two levels of wandering where we have the little gaps in between the
00:26:06things that we do, especially before and after we do something.
00:26:11That's sometimes the most fruitful time to wander because beforehand you set an intention
00:26:16because you're thinking about the future and the impending thing is so front of mind that
00:26:22you're more likely to wander to it for about half the time.
00:26:27It's probably closer to 75, 80% of the time that you'll be thinking about the future, just
00:26:32automatically setting intentions.
00:26:35And after too, right, it's the learning loop where you can set different intentions or think
00:26:41of action items from a meeting or, you know, something as simple as that, or, you know,
00:26:46you have a meaningful conversation.
00:26:47So at a coffee shop with a good friend or something, and so you can reflect on it on the walk back
00:26:54home instead of just filling your attention to the brim or distracting yourself, you can
00:26:59actually internalize something that leads you to set different intentions later on.
00:27:05And so the default intentions that we have, you know, a lot of them are habits, but we
00:27:10need some reinforcement mechanism almost so that the more deliberate things we do can change
00:27:20our defaults, if that makes sense.
00:27:22Yeah, it does.
00:27:23I think I got a bit of stick for suggesting that New Year's resolutions are important on
00:27:29a podcast a couple of months ago.
00:27:32And I'm not saying that there's anything special, particularly about January 1st.
00:27:36But the point I did think was kind of interesting is that people are already obsessing over the
00:27:42future and ruminating about the past.
00:27:44They're just doing it in an unstructured way.
00:27:46Yeah.
00:27:47Right.
00:27:48So it's just invading your life that careens into consciousness.
00:27:52You don't know where it came from.
00:27:53You don't know how long it's going to linger.
00:27:54You can't get rid of it.
00:27:56And then it leaves.
00:27:57And you go, I guess that was kind of like me planning and reflecting, except for the fact
00:28:03that it felt bad.
00:28:04I didn't mean it to happen.
00:28:05I was supposed to be doing something else and it wasn't in any way productive or contributing
00:28:09to my life.
00:28:10Like, okay, why don't we then every so often just take a little bit of time, take it down
00:28:14beat.
00:28:15But speaking of that, you know, New Year's resolution is kind of one of the go-to garden
00:28:19variety productivity tools.
00:28:22Smart goals are another one.
00:28:24And you seem to take a bit of issue with smart goals, something that every business undergrad
00:28:31from all times has become familiar with.
00:28:33What's your issue with smart goals?
00:28:34Yeah, seriously.
00:28:35I actually have never had an issue with them until I encountered the research on them.
00:28:40So I personally thought smart goals would be a shoo-in for this book.
00:28:45And because I've written about them in the past, they sound incredible, right?
00:28:49These goals that are specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and time-bound, smart.
00:28:55It sounds like it should work, right?
00:28:58You know, they're smart.
00:29:00Why would you set dumb goals or something?
00:29:03But then you look at the research on them where, and if you don't believe me, you know, and
00:29:09I hope to actually stir up a bit of controversy with this, but I can't wait for the productivity
00:29:16community to be up in arms, they'll be using the fucking Alfred extensions and their notion
00:29:21templates to send you big, long arguments about why smart goals are actually underrated and
00:29:25overrated.
00:29:26Yeah.
00:29:27They're going to have their keyboard maestro scripts automatically interact with Claude
00:29:33Cowork to do a deep research into just what's wrong with me or something, I don't know.
00:29:39But it's so interesting because I thought they'd be a shoo-in for the book, right?
00:29:44Real specific goals, incredible, don't we want our goals to be attainable, that sort of thing.
00:29:51But when you look at the research, and if you don't believe me, go to Google Scholar and
00:29:55type in smart goals, you'll see what comes up, you might be as surprised as I was.
00:30:01It turns out realistic goals often aren't good enough, right?
00:30:05We're limiting our potential when we make a goal merely realistic because when we make
00:30:11a goal challenging, the research shows we actually achieve more than we would otherwise by simply
00:30:18making it kind of a low-hanging bar or something that we can just step over.
00:30:23And there's also redundancy in the criteria, right?
00:30:26So aren't measurable goals also specific, for example?
00:30:32And I looked into the research on where did this actually come from?
00:30:37And it came from the smart goals originated as an article in a management review, it wasn't
00:30:45an academic journal, it was just kind of an article somebody wrote on how to better manage
00:30:50your employees.
00:30:51And it didn't stand for what the current acronym does today.
00:30:55And so it's kind of like the 10,000 step rule or the 10,000 hour rule, these nice kind of
00:31:02things that sound like they should work.
00:31:04And so there's a virality that's associated with it that kind of gets morphed into a cultural
00:31:11game of telephone ever since they were introduced.
00:31:14And so this was actually quite a big surprise for me because these sound so good.
00:31:20And I remember encountering this research, writing about it in the book, I actually had
00:31:27a little bit of a chapter drafted about smart goals, but I thought, okay, I need some research
00:31:33backing here, did a deep dive into the research and found that there's, a lot of researchers
00:31:38say that there's even research waste that occurs around smart goals because it seems like they
00:31:44make sense to study.
00:31:46So many businesses do them.
00:31:47I can't wait to hit the speaking circuit for this book and tell every business-
00:31:53Ruin everyone.
00:31:54Yeah, exactly.
00:31:55Really just cause controversy within all these companies and stuff.
00:32:01University controversies are probably the lowest stakes and least important controversy you
00:32:08can ever imagine.
00:32:09There's some political ones at the moment that seem equally stupid, but yeah.
00:32:12Yeah.
00:32:13Yeah.
00:32:14There's stupid controversy and enough of it to go around it at any given time in this kind
00:32:19of outraged, driven algorithmic world that we're in, but yeah, smart goals, maybe we should
00:32:24have something because then we could set actually better goals that are rooted in not only our
00:32:30values, right?
00:32:31We can edit our goals over time so that they're better fit for our values.
00:32:35We can actually overcome a lot of the things that are getting in the way of our goals too,
00:32:40like a lack of alignment with the social environments we're a part of, like procrastination, which
00:32:45is another huge, huge inhibitor to just how much we're able to accomplish in our day, in
00:32:52our life.
00:32:53Yeah.
00:32:54Let's talk about, let's talk about procrastination.
00:32:55I have to assume procrastination gets in the way for lots of people, that there's a thing,
00:33:05they understand their intention, it hasn't got slippery, it hasn't dropped out of their
00:33:09mind and for some reason, the thing that they need to do in order to move themselves toward
00:33:14achieving the intention, for some reason, they can't get started or they keep on stopping
00:33:23or something.
00:33:24How did you learn procrastination, big picture?
00:33:26Yeah.
00:33:27So big picture, very big picture.
00:33:31There are, for any goal, we have this function of desire where we either desire doing it,
00:33:38which is usually aligned with our values actually.
00:33:40So the more aligned something is with what we value, that's our motivational nature, our
00:33:45unique motivational nature, I should say.
00:33:48And so that's the desire component, the values component, but then there's the aversion component
00:33:53where to get how much you actually care about something or want to do something, you have
00:33:59to subtract how much aversion you have to doing it from the amount of desire and sometimes
00:34:04we end up in the negative.
00:34:05And so there's a lot of goals that we don't want to follow through with.
00:34:09There's a negative amount of energy around that goal and so we punt it down the street
00:34:14for a later day, it's called procrastination.
00:34:17But the interesting thing about procrastination is it's a purely visceral and emotional reaction
00:34:26to something that we don't want to do.
00:34:27There's very little logic embedded within it whatsoever.
00:34:31So it turns out that there are certain triggers that a task can have that lead us to a greater
00:34:40amount of aversion, which leads to procrastination.
00:34:43So those are whether something is boring, the more boring something is, the less we want
00:34:48to do it.
00:34:50Frustration is another one.
00:34:51So the process of doing something is very frustrating, unpleasantness, right, it's just something
00:34:57is just not pleasant to do.
00:35:00When something's far away in the future, right, the further away something is, the less we
00:35:06desire to do it because we can justify to ourselves, we don't feel, you know, the impending deadline
00:35:13of having to do it.
00:35:15When something is unstructured as well, that's another trigger of procrastination.
00:35:20And the interesting thing about that is, that one kind of frustrates me because, you know,
00:35:25you can structure things, you know, if you feel aversion for that reason, you know, if
00:35:30you don't want to go to the gym because you have no workout plan or something, that is
00:35:35very solvable, right?
00:35:36The other ones are kind of uglier, they're messier.
00:35:39Take me through the list from the top again, yes, so boring, frustrating, unpleasant, far
00:35:45away in the future, unstructured, and the final one is meaningless.
00:35:50So it's not aligned with our values, which we've covered.
00:35:53Okay, what are the easiest solutions for people?
00:36:01Some of those feel a little redundant, like boring, frustrating, meaningless, they feel
00:36:09I'm aware we're playing semantic games here, but they seem a little similar.
00:36:12What's the 80/20 of people overcoming procrastination?
00:36:18Is something unstructured?
00:36:21Structure it.
00:36:22You know, that's the lowest hanging fruit for procrastination.
00:36:27And usually you'll find when you cross reference, and you're right, there is overlap, you know,
00:36:32there is some debate in the research on whether these are distinct characteristics of tasks.
00:36:37But generally, you know, you can kind of, because you'll find that when something's aversive,
00:36:42it sets off multiple ones, right?
00:36:44You don't want to do your taxes, because they're boring, they're unstructured, they're frustrating,
00:36:48they're unpleasant.
00:36:50And so you procrastinate, maybe they're, you know, you kick them down the street for a later
00:36:55day.
00:36:56But structuring things is some of the lowest hanging fruit you can do for, so how can you
00:37:00add structure to doing your taxes?
00:37:02Can you just hire somebody to do it, right?
00:37:05Doing something is the easiest way to overcoming procrastination on it when it's something
00:37:09that's delegatable.
00:37:12So add structure, and go back to goal editing, right?
00:37:16If you have a goal that's really aversive for you, but it's still on your list, and you really
00:37:22see the tangible payoff of having done it, right?
00:37:26Not of doing it, not the enjoyment of doing it, but the tangible payoff of having done
00:37:30it.
00:37:31Edit the goal so it's more in line with your values, right?
00:37:34Find the goal from that six-pack abs by beach season face goal into that goal of, you know,
00:37:40having a feeling secure in your body that your heart isn't going to attack you in retirement
00:37:45or something, right?
00:37:47Connect with the deeper meaning behind it, and connect with that, you know, your top two
00:37:52values, for example.
00:37:54But also, you know, make it, do what you can to make it an actual enjoyable process for
00:38:01you.
00:38:02And that goes back to the unstructured nature of a goal, where—
00:38:06But also unpleasant, presumably.
00:38:07Yeah, also unpleasant, also boring, you know, frustrating, you know, a few of these different
00:38:13things at once.
00:38:15Can you do it over, I don't know, a fancy latte?
00:38:18Can you do, can you, you know, have a resistance list?
00:38:22This is one of my favorite productivity strategies, where, you know, make a list of everything
00:38:27you're resisting doing, and then a set of rewards that you can treat yourself when you
00:38:32do those things, right?
00:38:35Maybe assign a number of points that you can redeem for those rewards or something.
00:38:39I call them habit points in the book.
00:38:40So, you know, there are ways of making the process more enjoyable, making a game out of
00:38:45something that you don't want to be doing.
00:38:48So upping that enjoyment level, however you, having a, you know, glass of wine or whatever
00:38:54that colorful drink is that you're having, and saving it for that period of time.
00:39:01Habit stacking, right?
00:39:03Where you invest in the habits that you are kind of like guilty pleasures almost on some
00:39:09level.
00:39:11Investing in those when you do the aversive things.
00:39:14But there's so many different, you know, overcoming the resistance level we have to things that
00:39:20we can do.
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00:40:20What about the, I'm thinking about stuff that's just going to be tough, that you're just sort
00:40:31of facing and there's not really anything, the sacrifice reward dynamic, there's no way
00:40:36around this and it's just going to suck.
00:40:39I guess you could try and stack listening to good music that you enjoy at the same time.
00:40:44You could go to the coffee shop to try and make it a little bit easier.
00:40:47I'm just wondering how many times, right, I've got my favorite song on, I've gone to my favorite
00:40:53coffee shop, my latte, and fuck, I opened Instagram.
00:40:56Shit.
00:40:57Whoops.
00:40:58Yeah.
00:40:59Yeah.
00:41:00And so this comes down to often giving yourself no choice but to do something.
00:41:05So Freedom is one of my favorite apps on the computer for this reason.
00:41:12I'm not affiliated, much like you in that drink, I guess should be sponsored by, what's the
00:41:18name of it again?
00:41:20Bloom Pop.
00:41:21Bloom Pop.
00:41:22And Freedom.
00:41:23Freedom is one of my favorite apps.
00:41:25So are you familiar with it?
00:41:26Do you use it?
00:41:27I use Cold Turkey, which I think is something similar.
00:41:32Same difference.
00:41:33Freedom, Cold Turkey.
00:41:34I think Self Control is another one where essentially you disable access to a lot of the things that
00:41:41you find more attractive than the thing that you really ought to be doing, than the thing
00:41:48that you want to be doing over a broader period of time.
00:41:51So personally, whenever I write, I find I gravitate to things that are more interesting than writing.
00:41:57I'll want to check my email one more time.
00:42:00I'll want to fire up social media.
00:42:03I'm not big into social media, but sometimes I'll fire up social media, see what my friends
00:42:08are up to, check the news, you know, whatever it might look like.
00:42:13And so Freedom disables the things that are more attractive on your computer than what
00:42:19you ought to be doing.
00:42:20You can specify a block list ahead of time.
00:42:22So even if you want to access these things, you have to restart your computer if it's in
00:42:28the time period that you specify.
00:42:32Another one of my favorite habits is aversion journaling.
00:42:35So what I'll do is I'll grab my notepad, which is always by my side as I work, and my pilot
00:42:42precise V5 RT pen, which, you know, as long as we're throwing productivity fire out there
00:42:49or whatever, try to cause controversy.
00:42:52This is the best pen available.
00:42:54You can come out.
00:42:55The best pen available?
00:42:56Yeah, it's the best pen available.
00:42:57What makes it the best pen?
00:42:58Oh, have you tried writing with a, what's it called?
00:43:02Pilot precise V5 RT, Chris?
00:43:03No.
00:43:04Tell me about it.
00:43:05What's the experience like?
00:43:07Oh, well, it won't come through in video, right?
00:43:12This is the same as who's your girlfriend in school and it's like, oh, she goes to a different
00:43:16school you wouldn't know.
00:43:18No, no, no, no.
00:43:19I promise.
00:43:20I promise.
00:43:21It costs like $2.
00:43:22People can try for themselves.
00:43:23You'll never go back.
00:43:25My wife and I got in an argument one time because I said the pilot, you know, I know what the
00:43:30best pen is.
00:43:31And she said, no, I know what the best pen is.
00:43:33And we had this argument before sharing what pen we were talking about.
00:43:37Turns out we were both talking about the pilot precise V5 RT.
00:43:40But what I'll do with the pilot precise V5 RT is, rolls right off the tongue, doesn't
00:43:46it?
00:43:47It is, I'll grab the notepad and I'll do some, I call it aversion journaling where when I
00:43:53find that I'm resisting doing something, I'll write down why, you know, and it won't, sometimes
00:44:00it'll be as methodical as going through each of the triggers, you know.
00:44:04Is it boring?
00:44:05Yeah.
00:44:06Is it frustrating?
00:44:07No, but it's really boring.
00:44:08So I'll go through the triggers sometimes.
00:44:10Or it can be more loosey goosey, more casual.
00:44:13You know, I'll just grab the notepad and start writing.
00:44:16Why do I find this thing so ugly?
00:44:19And what can I do about it to counterbalance that ugliness, right?
00:44:24To make it less aversive.
00:44:25And I always leave with some tactical thing that I can do to make it less ugly for myself.
00:44:33And if not that, you know, my relationship with it changes a little bit.
00:44:37I understand what makes it so aversive.
00:44:41And so give yourself a choice to either do some aversion journaling or do the thing.
00:44:47And so eventually the time will, and you'll gravitate to the journaling at first, but you'll
00:44:52end up untangling the knots that you have to doing something and overcome that resistance
00:44:59to doing it.
00:45:00So it's an interesting tactic, but it works almost without fail for me personally.
00:45:06It might, I think it will for readers, listeners too, viewers.
00:45:12What about the difference between ugly goals and attractive goals?
00:45:17Because there's some, again, I'm trying to think about as much objection handling as possible.
00:45:22There are some things that are just funner goals than others.
00:45:27There are some goals that are uglier and some goals that are more attractive.
00:45:30Yeah, it's just every goal is a bit different on that fundamental level.
00:45:37And so, you know, often you'll edit a goal and you'll get it to as good in good as shape
00:45:43as you possibly can.
00:45:45And it's still ugly, it's still fugly in a lot of cases.
00:45:48And so you got no choice at that point to decide is this goal worth pursuing?
00:45:55And sometimes the fact that you have tried to edit a goal extensively and you still find
00:46:03it ugly, sometimes that's a sign that it could be worth dropping when it's just fundamentally
00:46:08not aligned to who you are and what you care about.
00:46:12And then you have the goals on your list that's like, you know, lower my cholesterol or something,
00:46:16which probably few people want to do, but if your cholesterol is high, you should probably
00:46:21do it.
00:46:22And so then you have the goals that you really ought to be achieving.
00:46:27And so the limits test is, you know, is thinking, okay, will I be happy that I did this thing?
00:46:33And what tangible difference will it make to my life?
00:46:37Because I forget who said it, but somebody said, you know, for our days to be different,
00:46:44our life needs to be different.
00:46:45I think, you know, you can kind of transpose those for our life to be different, our days
00:46:50need to be different.
00:46:52What do your goals look like on a tangible daily basis?
00:46:56Because another trap we fall into a lot of times, and I call them sepia tone goals, where
00:47:02we have these beautiful fantasies of just exactly how different our life will be after we integrate
00:47:10a change into our life.
00:47:12The one that comes up for me is waking up at 5.30 every morning.
00:47:17So I love this idea of being an early riser, you know, and I've struggled and I've integrated
00:47:24this goal into my life several times actually, where, you know, I'll wake up at 5.30, I'll
00:47:29do all these things that feel like they should be good in my head, I'll meditate like I usually
00:47:37do when I wake up, I'll go to the gym, I'll read the paper, I was going to say still get
00:47:43the physical paper, but I'm not that old.
00:47:46I read the physical paper, though, that arrives every morning, you know, all these holy things
00:47:51with the morning.
00:47:52But then I realized that I absolutely hate the ritual, right, I have to go to bed in order
00:47:57to get a good enough sleep when people want to hang out, when good hockey games are on,
00:48:02when shit's actually happening that's interesting in my life.
00:48:08And so there's this idea of a change sometimes that is sepia toned that leads to these tangible
00:48:15changes that we don't really actually want.
00:48:19And by the way, for waking up early, if you're a night owl like I am, that actual research
00:48:25on it, I believe by Till Ronenburg, has found that there's no difference in somebody's socioeconomic
00:48:33standing based on their wake up time.
00:48:35So people who wake up at 8 a.m. are just as successful as people who wake up at 5 a.m.,
00:48:41but it's how deliberate, how intentional we are with our time that makes the biggest difference.
00:48:46You know, still wake up at 7.30, 8, read the paper, meditate, just everything is just shifted
00:48:52over.
00:48:53Do you think, how many goals do you think people have that are just kind of socially
00:48:58acceptable cosplays of ambition?
00:49:01So many people love the idea of saying that I have this goal.
00:49:09Maybe the reason that lots of people aren't achieving their goals and their intentions
00:49:12is that if they were to look a little bit more closely, they'd realize that they weren't theirs.
00:49:16They're doing it as this sort of cool, trendy t-shirt that they can wear that when other
00:49:21people ask them what their goals are, they can say, "Oh, I'm doing a keto diet," or "I'm
00:49:26doing meat and fruit at the moment," or "I'm microdosing," you know, but that's not actually
00:49:32what they want.
00:49:33It's what they want other people to hear them saying that they want.
00:49:37Yeah.
00:49:38Yeah.
00:49:39"I'm microdosing meat and fruit," you know, whatever it is.
00:49:42That's such a big part of it.
00:49:44And so, you know, one tactic that I'm a big advocate for is keeping a list of your goals.
00:49:51And I divide mine based on context.
00:49:54So personal and work and inside, I list the goals under the values that they're a part
00:49:59of.
00:50:00And when I started doing this, I did realize that there were a lot of goals on the list,
00:50:04like waking up early is one of them, where I feel it's still interesting, you know, that
00:50:11the guilt that we experience when we don't follow through with the expectations that other
00:50:17people have of us, like waking up early.
00:50:20So I know all the research, and I know what works for me.
00:50:26I know what my biological prime time is, which is when we're wired to perform.
00:50:31I know all these things.
00:50:32I know I have a better life, I enjoy life more, I do better work, I create better things when
00:50:38I wake up later.
00:50:39But still, I feel guilty when I roll out of bed at a later hour than, you know, than whatever
00:50:46I deem justifiable in my head.
00:50:49And so there is this, you know, I love the cosplay of phraseology that you use.
00:50:58And it's interesting because I feel our relationship is different depending on our values in that
00:51:03context where, you know, conformity is one of the fundamental human values.
00:51:09Some people do value conformity.
00:51:11And so if that's you, which is probably unlikely if you're listening to this podcast, but I
00:51:18was hanging out with a couple people last night who's, you know, they identified that as one
00:51:23of their highest values, which I found interesting.
00:51:28But if that's a high value for you, and there's a goal that other people expect you to achieve,
00:51:35what the research shows is you will actually find it meaningful to achieve that thing.
00:51:40Because you're living within the expectations that other people have of you.
00:51:45And if you don't have that value, which it's low for me, it's probably low for you too,
00:51:49knowing you to some extent, you're not going to find much meaning.
00:51:54And, you know, for me, my value of self-direction is so high, the highest by a wide, wide margin.
00:52:01And my value of conformity is so low that if I feel I have to do something, that'll make
00:52:06me not want to do it.
00:52:09It'll make me want to rebel against the expectations other people have of me.
00:52:14But there still is that fundamental guilt.
00:52:16So it really is a, you know, so it's kind of like when you ask somebody how, you know,
00:52:21how's work for you?
00:52:22And they say, oh, I'm so busy.
00:52:23You know, I have so much going on, where the busyness, you know, people overestimate how
00:52:28long they work for, first of all, but second of all, they wear that busyness as almost a
00:52:33badge of honor of, you know, oh, the world needs me so much, you know, and I'm so wanted
00:52:41by the world, so needed by the world, so I'm so busy.
00:52:45We have kind of a similar status projection with our goals sometimes, but, you know, tapping
00:52:50into that, that's what makes tapping into that self-reflective capacity just so much more
00:52:55important.
00:52:56If we never tap into our self-reflective capacity, we'll never truly get what we want.
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00:54:11Yeah, I suppose, look, social pressure is a hell of an improver, it's a hell of an assistance
00:54:22when we want to try and get something done.
00:54:24It's why you train harder when you're in a class than when you're on your own, typically.
00:54:28I guess, how can people make their goals and intentions feel deeper?
00:54:34There's certainly some that resonate with us a lot, and then there's others that don't so
00:54:39much but we wish that they did.
00:54:42Is there something we can do to make goals sort of feel deeper?
00:54:47Yeah, so the values component is one, and that's a big one.
00:54:53And there is, you know, you're touching on the social environments that we're a part of.
00:54:57There are kind of a lot of productivity extremists out there, I call them.
00:55:03People who, you know, they'll say never surround yourself with people who don't support you
00:55:08and your goals.
00:55:09But life is just more complex than that.
00:55:12You know, we have good friends that have bad habits, you know, speaking personally, when
00:55:17I'm around family, a lot of their, I'm not going to call anyone out, but a lot of their
00:55:23habits aren't conducive to, you know, the goals that I have.
00:55:27But still, I'd be cold and heartless to weed them out of my life for, you know, some.
00:55:37But there is kind of positive social contagion that I think we can introduce for a lot of
00:55:43our goals, where if you have a big new goal, a big new habit that you're trying to integrate
00:55:49into your life, you can really reflect, "Okay, how can I actually double down on how much
00:55:54contagion I'm experiencing for this goal?"
00:55:57And so there is that level of deliberateness that we can layer on top of whatever that goal
00:56:02is.
00:56:03Whereas, can I join a running group, you know, if my intention is to, you know, get a certain
00:56:09workout time or a certain run time.
00:56:12If you're joining a knitting group, right, I used to be a bigger knitter than I am right
00:56:17now and I wanted to get more into it because it's a great way to scatter your group.
00:56:21Knitting your group.
00:56:22Yeah, yeah.
00:56:23And so it's all like- Like a meetup for people to knit.
00:56:26Yeah.
00:56:27And there's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in.
00:56:30I'm not a good knitter, you know, by any stretch, but I found it a great way.
00:56:34I love the smirk that you have right now.
00:56:37It's like- I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together, like CrossFit
00:56:42on an evening.
00:56:43Oh, yeah.
00:56:44Cross knit.
00:56:45Yeah.
00:56:46I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together.
00:56:47Yeah.
00:56:48Well, I'm no good.
00:56:49Like, I can make dishcloths and stuff, but when I was a part of the knitting group in
00:56:54the city that I used to live in, man, like my level of improvement with that habit was
00:57:01a different curve than it is right now.
00:57:03If anything, it's- I'm kind of letting the habit die, right?
00:57:06There's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in, which hosted this kind of
00:57:10meetup.
00:57:11All older women, some of my favorite people in the world were in that group.
00:57:20And so, you know, having that social contagion because it can really support you in the habits
00:57:25that you want to form.
00:57:27That's one way to make it deeper.
00:57:29Nothing feels deeper in our life than human to human connection.
00:57:35All right.
00:57:36Taking all of this together, what's the structure?
00:57:40Someone is bought into the fact that intentions are important.
00:57:43They realize the procrastination's there.
00:57:45They've got goals.
00:57:46They've got actions.
00:57:47They've got daily purpose, all the rest of the stuff.
00:57:50What's the best way to put this into a format to follow?
00:57:52How should people design better intentions?
00:57:55Yeah, so it's interesting.
00:57:59Something that I really believe now is becoming more intentional is a skill that we can get
00:58:05better at over time.
00:58:06So, you know, if you look at your level of follow through, the book was originally called
00:58:14follow through, but it has a weird connotations in the UK that I was not aware of.
00:58:20You're probably familiar with them, right?
00:58:21Follow through.
00:58:22Yes.
00:58:23Yeah.
00:58:24Yes.
00:58:25People can go on Urban Dictionary in their own time.
00:58:26But if you're looking to increase your level of follow through with your goals, it'll make
00:58:34sense when you look it up.
00:58:36That was like totally out of left field for me having to rename the book because it was
00:58:41such a good encapsulation.
00:58:42It was originally called follow through?
00:58:43Yes, it was.
00:58:44Wow.
00:58:45Well, no, you only need to re-name it in the UK.
00:58:48It would have been fine in the US.
00:58:51Well, yeah, in the US, it would have been fine.
00:58:53The UK publisher really raised it, and marketing is so awkward when you have differently named
00:58:59books.
00:59:00I'm fortunate that only my subtitles have been different across geographies.
00:59:05But realize that increasing your level of follow through is really a skill that you can get
00:59:10better at over time.
00:59:11So maybe you set goals, you set intentions right now.
00:59:15Maybe for a given goal, you follow through with it, let's say the default, right?
00:59:208% of the time, we follow through with our New Year's resolutions.
00:59:24Maybe when you resolve to do something big, you follow through with it 8% of the time.
00:59:28But you can build this skill of intentionality, and you can build these practices of intentionality.
00:59:35There's the obligatory ugly stuff, lowering your cholesterol.
00:59:39You can deploy the procrastination habits on those.
00:59:42So just looking to get started on something, one of my favorite tactics out there is shrinking
00:59:47your resistance level to doing things.
00:59:49So if you're writing a book, for example, and you have freedom on or something cold turkey
00:59:56nut, but you're still resisting it, you can shrink how long you do it for until you overcome
01:00:01that resistance, right?
01:00:02It adds structure.
01:00:03It makes it less boring, less frustrating, all that stuff.
01:00:06So you might think, okay, do I want to write for an hour?
01:00:09No way in hell.
01:00:10What about 45 minutes?
01:00:12No.
01:00:13What about 30?
01:00:14What about 20?
01:00:16I could write for 20.
01:00:19And so you overcome that resistance by shrinking how long you do something for being kinder
01:00:25to yourself in the process.
01:00:26So the procrastination for the obligatory ugly things, the procrastination tactics are
01:00:33very helpful for those.
01:00:35But usually there's more latitude in editing our goals than we believe, right?
01:00:45So maybe there's some project that you don't want to do.
01:00:50One example, maybe you have to write some employee handbook or something.
01:00:55And so on your to-do list, it's write employee handbook, or maybe you're making the list of
01:00:59goals as write employee handbook.
01:01:02And that's aversive, right?
01:01:03It feels like something you have to do, which fits with that value of conformity.
01:01:09But maybe you added it, maybe your biggest value is benevolence, so helping other people.
01:01:13Maybe it's self-direction, so going your own way.
01:01:17So a better goal, a better frame for the goal might be mentor new employees and get creative
01:01:25with the handbook project.
01:01:26So you might actually perform the same set of actions under each goal, but one feels like
01:01:31something you have to do that isn't aligned with what you value.
01:01:34The other feels like something that is actually connected with what truly motivates you on
01:01:40that deep fundamental human level.
01:01:43So know your top values as well.
01:01:45So we mentioned the 12 of them earlier in the podcast.
01:01:49Won't go through them again.
01:01:50We've already talked about them.
01:01:52But what top two are the strongest for you?
01:01:56And how can you align more of your goals to them?
01:01:59The easiest way to tell if something, if a priority, if a goal is aligned with your deepest
01:02:06values is you've done it already, right?
01:02:10Because the best, most aligned goals, they feel effortless.
01:02:13They feel like just an extension of who we are.
01:02:16So okay, that covers procrastination.
01:02:19Let's give it a little system for people.
01:02:21That covers procrastination on the ugly stuff, editing the stuff that can be framed differently,
01:02:27increasing your desire, right?
01:02:29Modifying your social environments.
01:02:31But a big one where you see and you accommodate the different layers of intention in your
01:02:41life is setting intentions across multiple timeframes at once.
01:02:46One of my favorite rules for this is the rule of three, but I'm trying to remember.
01:02:50On one of the past times we were chatting, did I mention the rule of three?
01:02:54Maybe.
01:02:55Give us it again.
01:02:56Okay.
01:02:57So all this is is at the start of every day, I like to start with the goal on a daily basis
01:03:04because then you see kind of where the rubber meets the road and you can begin to form different
01:03:11intentions.
01:03:12So at the start of the day, you fast forward to the end of the day in your head and you
01:03:16ask yourself, what are the three main things I will want to have accomplished by the day's
01:03:22end?
01:03:23That's it.
01:03:24What are the three main things I'll want to have accomplished by the day's end?
01:03:27And because you can only pick three, it forces you to prioritize what's on your plate.
01:03:35You have to choose three things that are important and everything else that isn't.
01:03:40But if you find the rule works every day, you might think, okay, what are three things that
01:03:45I want to accomplish this week, right?
01:03:48Maybe in a work context and a personal context.
01:03:51So that when you set the daily intentions, you can look to the weekly ones and think,
01:03:55okay, how can these contribute to the broader plans that I have?
01:04:01So in this way, your daily intentions begin feeding into your plans.
01:04:06And so when you set your weekly intentions, you can look to your goal list, right?
01:04:11You can think, how much of this stuff do I want to bite off today?
01:04:16And so you begin to develop the different layers of intention that you have in your life.
01:04:22Your daily intentions fit with your weekly intentions, which fit with your plans, your
01:04:28goals, which can fit with your values as you edit them more over time.
01:04:32So this is kind of the skill that we can develop in setting better intentions over the longer
01:04:39arc of time and upping our level of follow-through, the goal kind, as well as our level of accomplishment
01:04:46if that's something that you value.
01:04:51What do you think, I know the book's new, what do you think is something that people are overlooking
01:04:57from this big thesis that you've put together?
01:04:59You've got the obvious things that people are going to zero in on, probably the insights
01:05:05around procrastination and ways to reframe intentions and stuff like that.
01:05:09But is there something, a less sexy but powerful element that you think most people are overlooking?
01:05:17Yeah, I'll share my personal favorite.
01:05:21It is that our values are constructed out of our default intentions.
01:05:31So our default intentions, they form a shape and so you can look at, and the shape is the
01:05:40values that we have.
01:05:41So you can look at all the things you do by default and there's always an underlying motivation
01:05:49behind the things that you do by default, right?
01:05:53You have a default habit of meditating because that allows you to get closer to what you want
01:06:01with self-direction or you feel more secure in your mind, you feel calmer, you have habits
01:06:08to call friends and that might connect with different values of benevolence and serving
01:06:16others.
01:06:17But even the simple things, overeating or something might fit with that biological need for security
01:06:25and not starving.
01:06:27So from the deeply, deeply ingrained to the default intentions that we form.
01:06:33So these form the framework of our values and this might be too in the weeds for an answer
01:06:39to this question that's interesting, but I think this is very underrated where our values
01:06:44are made out of the things that we do by default.
01:06:48And it's for this idea that I think our default intentions aren't, they're not just something
01:06:55to get frustrated by, you know, why do I overeat or why do I do this, why do I do that?
01:07:02There's something on many levels to admire, right?
01:07:07We can observe ourselves acting through pure habit energy and playing with our kids on habit,
01:07:15whatever it might look like.
01:07:17And I think our default habits, sometimes they're worth getting frustrated by and setting a different
01:07:23intention after something we've learned maybe or maybe after tapping into that self-reflective
01:07:27capacity.
01:07:29But I think other times they're worth marveling at, right?
01:07:32We have all of these, frankly, in my opinion, beautiful default intentions that I think make
01:07:40us human, right?
01:07:42Because we're not only ingrained in a certain way to act in a certain way, but we can also
01:07:49admire the person that not only nature has formed, but also that we have formed through
01:07:56the decisions that we've made in the past and that those deliberate intentions that
01:08:01we can layer on top of the defaults of our life.
01:08:04That's only, that's this wonderful way that we can go in a different direction and really
01:08:10guide ourselves and our lives to go in a different way.
01:08:16And goals are a big part of that, but values are a big part of that, priorities, plans and
01:08:20daily intentions.
01:08:21So I just think marveling at our defaults is an underrated idea from the book.
01:08:29Right.
01:08:30Yeah.
01:08:31Chris Bailey, ladies and gentlemen, why should people go to check out everything that you
01:08:34got going on?
01:08:35Oh, oh yeah.
01:08:36Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the pod again.
01:08:39Intentional How to Finish What You Start is the name of the book.
01:08:42If you feel inclined to check it out, there's an audio book too, if that's your style.
01:08:47ChrisBailey.com, that's where my news letter is and then all the good stuff that you can
01:08:52find in the, I don't know what you want to call it, the Chris Bailey verse, whatever.
01:08:57Yeah.
01:08:58Thanks for having me on again.
01:08:59I got you, man.
01:09:00I appreciate you.
01:09:01I like your work.
01:09:02Keep on doing it.
01:09:03Oh, thanks buddy.
01:09:04Great to chat with you always.
01:09:06Congratulations.
01:09:07You made it to the end of an episode.
01:09:09Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet.
01:09:13Here's another one that you should watch.
01:09:16Go on.