Transcript
00:00:00- Did you read this New Statesman article?
00:00:02- I did.
00:00:03- Okay, what did you think of that?
00:00:05- I thought it was fascinating.
00:00:06I thought it was concerning,
00:00:08but also a little bit predictable that women are,
00:00:13well, there was a lot in there.
00:00:15There was, you know, women have a bleak outlook on life
00:00:19and that they are also spending a lot of time online,
00:00:22which is making everything worse
00:00:24and that they dislike men so strongly,
00:00:28more than men dislike women.
00:00:31I think that this is to be predicted
00:00:35by an evolutionary framework.
00:00:37Throughout human history, women were very vulnerable
00:00:40because they are targets of sexual abuse.
00:00:45Because they're reproductively valuable,
00:00:47they're smaller on average,
00:00:48and they needed assistance getting the calories
00:00:50for themselves and for their children.
00:00:52And the data suggests women's foraging isn't enough
00:00:55to sustain even themselves.
00:00:58So women who signaled their vulnerability
00:01:00through looking kind of pitiable would have been favored,
00:01:05but also any display beyond that.
00:01:10So communicating sadness,
00:01:12communicating need would have been favored.
00:01:14So I think this kind of tendency
00:01:18towards a bleak outlook on life makes sense.
00:01:21And in fact, women perceive themselves around the globe
00:01:24to be less happy, less healthy than men,
00:01:27both mentally and physically.
00:01:29And so this is a common pattern.
00:01:32And there also seems to be
00:01:33like a social contagion effect to it.
00:01:36So if you look at women's interactions,
00:01:40when they are sad, their partners,
00:01:43whoever they're interacting with becomes more sad.
00:01:45Their depression spreads through networks
00:01:47in a way that men's doesn't.
00:01:49So there's also like a social contagion effect.
00:01:52So I think a lot of this makes sense.
00:01:55And then if you look at like the men hating,
00:01:57it also makes sense that if women needed
00:02:00to signal their loyalty to one another,
00:02:04so if they were often in these patrilocal environments
00:02:07where they weren't around their family or kin,
00:02:10then one way to communicate to other women,
00:02:12you can trust me, is by being loyal, a really good friend,
00:02:16but also probably being a girl's girl.
00:02:18And one way to signal you're a girl's girl is by hating men.
00:02:23Hannah Bradshaw has some cool research showing
00:02:25that women who are guys' girls tend to be not trusted
00:02:30by other women.
00:02:31So if you have more guy friends, they don't trust you.
00:02:34They think you're more provocative.
00:02:37And so I think some of this is also related to that.
00:02:41I think there's a lot going on.
00:02:42- Is that in-group loyalty thing around the guys' girl stuff?
00:02:46- I think so.
00:02:47So she didn't test it in that framework.
00:02:50She tested it as like, just what do you think of a girl
00:02:52who only has guy friends or a girl who has girl's friends?
00:02:55And women like the girl with girlfriends more
00:02:59and trust her more.
00:03:00But in some of our data where we looked at this asymmetry
00:03:05and concern for men versus women,
00:03:07women showed the bias to a stronger degree than men did.
00:03:10So I think if you put those two together,
00:03:12I think women might be advocating for women
00:03:16to signal to one another, I'm on your team.
00:03:19- Yeah.
00:03:19- Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Tanya.
00:03:21And to add a few more evolutionary perspectives to that.
00:03:24I was listening to the podcast from the journalists
00:03:26who did the research and I was just banging my head
00:03:29against the wall thinking,
00:03:30there's so much evolutionary psychology at play here,
00:03:33you can't see it.
00:03:35There's also an error management perspective.
00:03:37So everything in evolution is a trade-off
00:03:39and between costs and benefits.
00:03:41And for most of our evolutionary history,
00:03:44women were making the trade-off that they were benefiting
00:03:47by selecting men who would be able to provision them
00:03:49with resources and be able to protect them.
00:03:52Those are no longer as salient as benefits to modern women
00:03:56who are earning their own money, achieving their own status
00:04:00and living in a pretty safe world,
00:04:02even if they don't always feel it's all that safe.
00:04:05So those are no longer really key benefits
00:04:08that men can provide.
00:04:09So they're looking for men to provide other benefits
00:04:12that they're just not stepping up to the plate to do.
00:04:14So if you think about it
00:04:15from an error management perspective,
00:04:17the costs of selecting a bad mate
00:04:21still are exactly the same
00:04:23as they were throughout ancestral history for women,
00:04:25but the benefits just so that basically
00:04:26the juice is not worth the squeeze for modern women.
00:04:29So like I read the article
00:04:31and our lab focuses on sexual conflict.
00:04:33And one of the solutions to sexual conflict
00:04:36that we always kind of promote
00:04:38is to try and encourage cross-sex mind reading.
00:04:41For the last number of years,
00:04:43I've tried to get people to see it from the men's side that,
00:04:46oh, well, imagine how it would feel to suddenly be asked
00:04:50to provide value in ways that you don't really know how,
00:04:54that you're being outpaced in status
00:04:57and you can no longer add value in those domains.
00:05:00But now I'm trying to put the cross-sex mind reading hat on
00:05:04and imagine it from the woman's side.
00:05:07And from a trade-off perspective in terms of mating,
00:05:11they're living up to their side of the bargain.
00:05:14Men value physical attractiveness far more than women,
00:05:17and that was one of the key benefits
00:05:18that women provide as a mate.
00:05:20Modern women look better than ever, right?
00:05:22And they're bringing more to the table.
00:05:25They're actually contributing resources and status as well.
00:05:28And it's not like men hated those things
00:05:31and only liked physical attractiveness.
00:05:32They just didn't-- - It's a bonus.
00:05:34- It just wasn't as key a benefit as it is to women.
00:05:37So men are getting more and more from women,
00:05:40whereas women are getting less and less,
00:05:42and they're looking for different things,
00:05:44and that was the key thing that came through
00:05:46is that the traditional benefits that men were providing
00:05:49were no longer ones that modern women were looking for.
00:05:52They were looking for things like shared political ideals,
00:05:56emotional intelligence, things like that,
00:06:01even humor and stuff.
00:06:02And I think that modern men are just a little bit lost,
00:06:05but there is a way back for them to provide value
00:06:10in different ways.
00:06:11But it's just the case that modern women are happier
00:06:14to choose singlehood than risk choosing a costly mate.
00:06:18And if you look at modern relationships,
00:06:21there's this pathway towards
00:06:23a long-term committed relationship
00:06:25that has to go through this ambiguity,
00:06:27that goes through this kind of uncertainty
00:06:30of dealing with fuckboys, going on these dates,
00:06:33getting spurned by men.
00:06:35Because the modern mating market allows for deceptive men
00:06:39to pursue a deceptive strategy at unprecedented rates.
00:06:43It's incredible.
00:06:44Like you have unprecedented levels of anonymity,
00:06:48access to millions of potential mates.
00:06:52So for the first time in history,
00:06:53you can actually pursue
00:06:56a purely short-term deceptive mating strategy
00:07:00without weathering many of the classic costs
00:07:04that you would have.
00:07:05Her kin and her friends are no longer really going
00:07:08to take revenge on you because you live in a city
00:07:11millions of miles away from them.
00:07:13They don't know who you are and you just move city.
00:07:16And a lot of men are pursuing this strategy.
00:07:19So women are thinking if that's the pathway
00:07:21towards a committed relationship, I'd rather not
00:07:25because they're not getting the benefits.
00:07:28- So the pathway to get to a relationship
00:07:30is laid with all of these different tripwires
00:07:32that you can kick.
00:07:34And women are worried about kicking one or many of them
00:07:36or maybe have in the past and have gone,
00:07:38actually, I can support myself financially,
00:07:41socioeconomically without this.
00:07:43But I guess the rubber's gonna meet the road eventually
00:07:46because unless you're gonna do IVF sperm donor,
00:07:50you need to have a partner eventually
00:07:52if you ever want to have a family.
00:07:54- Yeah, but it's just the case
00:07:55that women's status-seeking goals
00:07:57have become very important to them.
00:07:59They've been crushing it in socioeconomic arena.
00:08:02And it's a fact that getting with a long-term male partner
00:08:07is a massive hindrance to a woman's career.
00:08:10He's not really going to want her
00:08:11to be around other high status mates and rivals at work.
00:08:15He's not too crazy about that idea often.
00:08:18He often wants her to stay home and be the caregiver.
00:08:22That's often what she wants
00:08:23when she gets into a long-term relationship.
00:08:25So if you culturally lionize,
00:08:28I know it's a bit trite to say like the girl boss culture,
00:08:31but that does clash with relationship formation.
00:08:36It takes time to pursue a career
00:08:38and those two things are at odds.
00:08:41My mother famously said, "Actually women can have it all,
00:08:44"but just not at the same time."
00:08:46So that's a bit of modern wisdom from Mamie Costello.
00:08:49- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:50One in four young women say that their partner
00:08:53having a different political view to them
00:08:54would be a red flag in a relationship.
00:08:56However, on particular political issues,
00:08:59women's stance is more hardline, six in 10 say
00:09:02they would find it difficult to date someone
00:09:03who disagreed with them on the Palestine-Israel conflict
00:09:05or did not share their views on Donald Trump.
00:09:0774% say they'd find it difficult to be in a relationship
00:09:11with someone who did not share their views
00:09:12about social justice.
00:09:13Young women are also more likely than young men
00:09:15to say they would not have a relationship
00:09:17with someone who disagreed with them over immigration.
00:09:20- I mean, that's so interesting to me
00:09:21because I feel like my generation's view of morality
00:09:25is basically these faraway conflicts in the Middle East.
00:09:30It's things that aren't happening to our lives directly.
00:09:35But we seem to have this thing where we will treat
00:09:38how men behave as their sort of personal preference.
00:09:41It's their subjective judgment on things.
00:09:45So it's like a morally relative culture.
00:09:48And so the only way we can judge a man by his morality
00:09:51is is he posting about Palestine?
00:09:54How does he feel about immigration?
00:09:56Because you can't say this is right and wrong
00:09:57because we're not as religious anymore.
00:09:59We can't really say that there is morally good
00:10:02and morally bad.
00:10:03And so we have to use these really easy
00:10:06kind of signifiers of morality.
00:10:08- It's the thumb finger waving on social media, right,
00:10:12of what can be easily identified,
00:10:15what can be easily advertised.
00:10:16- I thought it was funny when I was listening to the podcast
00:10:19that these women, their activism is very important to them
00:10:23and they were very frustrated at what to me sounded
00:10:26like classically male typical status driving
00:10:29even in these circles.
00:10:30So there are some men who are going to identify this
00:10:33as an opportunity to--
00:10:34- Woke fishing.
00:10:35- Woke fishing, that's a nice term for it.
00:10:38But the women were complaining that the patterns of behavior
00:10:42they were engaging in, they were very interested
00:10:44in giving the speeches, running for positions of leadership.
00:10:47And I was like, it's all just a different type of status game
00:10:52and the same frustrations with men will exist
00:10:55in these domains as anywhere else.
00:10:57- Why do you think there's this sort of lean to the left
00:11:00when it comes to women?
00:11:01What's in a female disposition, predisposition
00:11:06that seems to have this sort of progressive list
00:11:11at the moment being very compelling?
00:11:13- I think it might have to do with if women evolve
00:11:16to evoke care and signal their vulnerability,
00:11:21then it would make sense from a niche construction
00:11:24perspective that you should design a world
00:11:26that gives aid to the vulnerable.
00:11:29So like it's in your interest to design a social world
00:11:32that transfers resources to the vulnerable.
00:11:35- Because you're going to appear more vulnerable.
00:11:35- If you see yourself as vulnerable.
00:11:38Yeah and so it can be, but I also think it functions twofold.
00:11:41It's both beneficial for them, but it's also a signal
00:11:43of their kindness and other women really dislike unkind women
00:11:49or any signs of cruelty, competitiveness.
00:11:51And so what I kind of wonder is like,
00:11:54is this all a competition to display to other women,
00:11:57I am so pro-social and kind,
00:11:59and then maybe your romantic partner is a reflection of you.
00:12:02So it's a stronger signal that I'm committed to these causes
00:12:06if my romantic partner also is,
00:12:08or if I don't have one altogether
00:12:10because they're not good enough.
00:12:13- I'm willing to pay the honest signal
00:12:14of I'm foregoing a romantic partner
00:12:17because there are none who meet my standards on this measure.
00:12:20And with kindness, usually there's target specificity
00:12:24that women usually prefer a partner who's really kind to them
00:12:27and they're less so keen on a partner who's kind to others,
00:12:30but except if there's a massive status associated
00:12:34with someone who's kind to others.
00:12:36And that is in this arena, in this political arena,
00:12:38signaling your kindness to others is the high status.
00:12:41- Kind of encouraging a bit of domestication as well
00:12:44of everyone around you.
00:12:45- It's interesting that a lot of men's behavior,
00:12:48men's portrayal of emotions are actually quite antisocial.
00:12:52You think about frustration, agitation,
00:12:55anger, rage, aggression, they're very antisocial.
00:13:00There's Joe Hudson's daughter was crying in the bath
00:13:03when she was nine and it kept happening over and over.
00:13:06And he came in and he said, "You know, when you're crying,
00:13:08"you sound like pretty agitated.
00:13:11"Are you sad or are you pissed off?"
00:13:12She said, "I'm pissed off."
00:13:14She's like, "Well, if you're pissed off, why are you crying?"
00:13:15He said, "Well, 'cause when I cry,
00:13:17"my sister comes and gives me a hug,
00:13:18"but when I'm angry, she runs away."
00:13:20The antisocial element of anger
00:13:24or sort of more male typical emotions,
00:13:28at least women when they get angry, sometimes they cry.
00:13:30Sometimes the men cry too, but less so.
00:13:33- This was a frustration that the women had
00:13:36about the men in these activism circles.
00:13:38They said that their solutions to the problems
00:13:41of seeing a sad story coming out of Palestine
00:13:44was to mobilize some logistic health.
00:13:47And the women said that they wanted an outpouring of emotion.
00:13:50- Sit in the emotion. - Sit in the emotion.
00:13:51- Yeah, one of them said, "If the guy was trying
00:13:54"to organize the protest for tomorrow,
00:13:55"but I just want you to sort of get on with the crying."
00:13:58But the business of crying, not the business of activism.
00:14:00- I think that explains why we have a proclivity
00:14:03toward progressive politics, because as you said,
00:14:06the social contagions that spread online,
00:14:08and online you're encouraged to ruminate and overthink
00:14:12and dwell on these issues.
00:14:15And so if your reaction to something is anger
00:14:17and a practical solution, that's not gonna spread
00:14:20as quickly online as all of these girls coming together
00:14:22and saying, "Isn't it so bad, isn't it so awful?"
00:14:24And then one-upping each other is who is the most
00:14:27emotionally affected by the issue.
00:14:29- Well, I said this before when I'm in a room
00:14:31with guys that are big into conspiracy theories,
00:14:34that there is this sort of race to the bottom of the iceberg
00:14:36for who can have the most insane conspiracy theory.
00:14:39So it's like, "Oh, dude, do you think that there's an ice wall
00:14:41"about Antarctica?
00:14:42"Let me tell you about the woolly mammoths.
00:14:44"Oh, do you think there's woolly mammoths, dude?
00:14:46"Let me tell you about," and it just keeps on going
00:14:48and keeps on escalating in that way.
00:14:49- Weird.
00:14:50(laughing)
00:14:51- We're very serious about him.
00:14:52- Oh, hold on a second.
00:14:53- Sorry, sorry.
00:14:54- Fucking Miss Andrea in the corner.
00:14:55(laughing)
00:14:57It's just, I mean, you must have been
00:14:58around this same thing too.
00:14:59It is a weird sort of like entropy toward insanity
00:15:04or toward the most extreme position.
00:15:06- And this is kind of the same,
00:15:08but it's entropy toward empathy.
00:15:10Pushing as hard as possible into the most,
00:15:12I am, I couldn't even leave the house
00:15:15because of how distraught I was about this particular issue.
00:15:18- And then intersectionality, which is like,
00:15:20"Oh, you think this issue is bad?
00:15:21"Well, I've looked into it from this angle
00:15:23"and I know this from this perspective."
00:15:25- Oh, you're just black?
00:15:26I'm black and a lesbian.
00:15:27I'm black and a lesbian with a gluten intolerance.
00:15:28- Or you're a feminist,
00:15:29but you don't think about trans women.
00:15:32There's always another way you can make it more neurotic
00:15:35and compete over that.
00:15:36- What do you think, you were saying the previous ways
00:15:40that men were able to add value and advertise
00:15:43their mate value to women has sort of fallen away.
00:15:45What do you make of the Lux marketing movement?
00:15:48- I kind of wonder if it's a reflection of,
00:15:50so there's this general trend towards
00:15:53the gender egalitarian paradox,
00:15:56where as the world treats men and women more equally,
00:15:59the sexes diverge more.
00:16:01So they do it on personality.
00:16:03They do it on--
00:16:04- Yes, men actually get taller
00:16:06and more equal in environments.
00:16:09- Like it's hard to say that's socially constructed.
00:16:11Although people do say that.
00:16:12They say, "Oh, parents just feed the boys more."
00:16:15And that's the only reason why--
00:16:16- And the more egalitarian?
00:16:17- Yeah, it's a man, but anyway.
00:16:20- But anyway, so like you see this pattern
00:16:22in both men and women.
00:16:23Men get more like risk-taking,
00:16:25women get more anxious and depressed.
00:16:27So what I think is going on is in this like,
00:16:30I think maybe gender egalitarianism
00:16:31is just like a proxy for social competitiveness.
00:16:34So as the world gets more competitive,
00:16:36our sex specific adaptations get activated.
00:16:39And so if it's the case that women are more prone
00:16:44to like anxiety or depression,
00:16:46that's gonna become amplified.
00:16:48If men are more prone to risk-taking
00:16:51or maybe conspiracy theory, that might get activated.
00:16:55And then--
00:16:55- Where's looks max income in?
00:16:56- Looks max, I mean, men and women have incentives
00:16:58to both enhance their appearance
00:16:59to the extent that they could.
00:17:01It's just through different techniques.
00:17:02So men might have a drive for muscularity.
00:17:05So that would allow them to be competitive
00:17:09in a really competitive world.
00:17:10- And especially if the mating market is becoming
00:17:12at first more short-term mating oriented.
00:17:15If there's this first pass of kind of somewhat
00:17:18short-term mating oriented relationship
00:17:20that becomes a long-term one,
00:17:22then physical attractiveness,
00:17:23which we know is massively over-indexed in online dating
00:17:27and kind of the media saturated world.
00:17:30We even have data.
00:17:31I know you spoke, Mackin, about this,
00:17:33about just people are prioritizing physical attractiveness.
00:17:37Both men and women are prioritizing it more and more.
00:17:39- Why do you think that is?
00:17:40- Because probably they're not able to add value
00:17:43in those other ways.
00:17:44The short-term mating kind of attributes
00:17:47become more enhanced.
00:17:49And especially if you have the kind of
00:17:51the visually saturated world online dating,
00:17:54that's the first gateway to jump through.
00:17:56Then you need to meet the minimum threshold
00:17:59on physical attractiveness.
00:18:00So it makes sense that men will increasingly
00:18:03engage in looks maxing.
00:18:04Now there's some predictable effects
00:18:06that we might see there.
00:18:07And I think we are seeing them,
00:18:09is that men tend to be a little extreme
00:18:11with their status driving,
00:18:13with any pursuit to get sexually selected.
00:18:15- It's fishery and runaway everywhere.
00:18:17- They're gonna go to extreme lengths.
00:18:19And that's what we're seeing, right?
00:18:21You're seeing like the looks max,
00:18:22the high profile looks maxers.
00:18:24Now, by the way, I don't think looks maxing is that bad.
00:18:27I think that microdosing looks maxing is probably good
00:18:30for everyone.
00:18:31- Going to the gym is for a guy getting a haircut.
00:18:33Mark Manson's "Models" came out in what, 2014?
00:18:36- Yeah.
00:18:37- Have you ever read that book?
00:18:38Probably not.
00:18:39So Mark Manson, before he did the subtle art,
00:18:40he wrote "Models."
00:18:41And "Models" was like a sanitized pickup book.
00:18:44It's the best way to put it.
00:18:45And then Jeffrey Miller and Tucker Max did "Mate."
00:18:48So the two car garage for guys,
00:18:50it gets a bit old.
00:18:51It's kind of showing my age weirdly,
00:18:52'cause they're both written in the teens or the tens.
00:18:55"Mate" by Tucker Max and Jeffrey Miller.
00:18:57And then "Models" by Mark Manson.
00:18:58But in "Models," it's like,
00:18:59you should get a t-shirt that fits nicely.
00:19:02Pick grays and navies, blacks.
00:19:06And you should get a pair of jeans that don't hang off you.
00:19:08And you need a nice belt.
00:19:09It's like the most basic.
00:19:10But that's, to a guy in 2010, that's looks maxing.
00:19:15- Yeah.
00:19:16And men can move the needle on their image pretty quick.
00:19:18Like good haircut, get in good shape, and wear fitted clothes.
00:19:21- Little bit of stubble.
00:19:22- You're going to kill it.
00:19:23It's like, that's a massive improvement.
00:19:24But I think what happens is men,
00:19:26given their tendency to go to extremes,
00:19:29and from an error management perspective,
00:19:31they go too far with the muscularity and things like that.
00:19:34Because, and there's lots of data to show
00:19:37that they go too far and it's not what women like.
00:19:40They men reliably overestimate the muscularity
00:19:42that women want.
00:19:43But I think of that from an error management perspective
00:19:46as well, because simultaneously we do have lots of data
00:19:49that women do like muscularity.
00:19:51So if you're going to make an error on one side,
00:19:54would you rather be-
00:19:55- More muscular than less muscular.
00:19:57- Better to have it and not need it
00:19:58than need it and not have it.
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00:21:11What was that poll that you did about clavicular?
00:21:16- Oh yeah, I asked whether, and I chose,
00:21:18I've really enjoyed 2X bringing in the pictures
00:21:22with the polls now.
00:21:23It's really a nice little addition to the polls,
00:21:26which I'm an aficionado of.
00:21:28- Well, you need to fucking get off Blue Sky.
00:21:29- Yeah, I'll get off Blue Sky.
00:21:30- My main piece of advice to you is to leave the fuck away.
00:21:34- Or do the polls on both and compare the results.
00:21:37- I have no following on Blue Sky.
00:21:38It's just a-
00:21:39- You go on there-
00:21:40- The dozens of people that are there,
00:21:42they have no interest.
00:21:42- You go on there as a form of self-harm.
00:21:44- Yes, I think you're right.
00:21:45Yeah, I do try and reach like both sides
00:21:48of the academic kind of world.
00:21:50- But they hate you.
00:21:51- I don't know.
00:21:52- They actively hate you.
00:21:53All that happens in our group chat is he posts.
00:21:56He basically comes in for kind of like emotional support.
00:22:00Where is emotional support group chat?
00:22:02- That's lovely.
00:22:03- Show them they don't show their emotions.
00:22:04- Yeah.
00:22:05- That's true.
00:22:06You're not showing your emotions.
00:22:06You're showing how you're being repeatedly beaten
00:22:08by the same social media platform.
00:22:10It's insanity.
00:22:11- Why do you get attacked
00:22:12just 'cause you're into evolutionary psychology?
00:22:15- Yeah, more kind of narcissism of small differences
00:22:18about evolutionary psychology, I'd say.
00:22:21But anyway, the polls on X are my fun.
00:22:25I love them, yeah.
00:22:26The whole Olly Murs situation went viral for that.
00:22:29But one I've done recently, I posted a picture of Clavicular
00:22:33who's the most high profile looks maxer.
00:22:35And I think a pretty handsome guy.
00:22:36He's one of the only looks maxers
00:22:38that I think looks pretty good.
00:22:40But I think he looked pretty good to begin with.
00:22:41So I think he was gonna be handsome anyway.
00:22:43But anyway, he's the most high profile looks maxer.
00:22:47And I posted a picture of, I can't even think of his name,
00:22:50but he's a popular K-pop singer.
00:22:52That's a bit of a heartthrob in that arena.
00:22:55And reliable sex difference.
00:22:58The men thought Clavicular was more handsome.
00:23:00The women thought that the K-pop star was more handsome.
00:23:03So there is a somewhat of a mismatch
00:23:05in cross-sex mind reading happening
00:23:07between men and women around attractiveness.
00:23:09- What do you think about the guys that say,
00:23:11"Well, that's just stated versus revealed preferences.
00:23:14Women actually do want the Giga Chad face.
00:23:17They don't wanna go with that soy boy.
00:23:19That's just what they think is popular to say online."
00:23:21- I think it's massive cope for people to respond
00:23:24to all my polls with,
00:23:25"Oh, you can't trust anything women say
00:23:28that they just lie all the time."
00:23:30Like that must be such a comforting world to live in
00:23:32to be like, "Oh, I don't have to worry
00:23:34about any of their criticism because it's just lies
00:23:37and I know how they really behave."
00:23:39This is often said by just basement dwellers.
00:23:41- People who don't go off the internet.
00:23:43- Yeah, exactly.
00:23:44So I would say that that K-pop star does pretty okay
00:23:48with women, I imagine, if he is so inclined.
00:23:51I think he would be fine.
00:23:52But yeah, the key point is I think men overdo it
00:23:57with their looks maxing, they could hit a sweet spot
00:24:00because the signaling effects that they're giving
00:24:02by being too into looks maxing is kind of negative to women.
00:24:06I'd love your opinion on this,
00:24:07but I think it signals that they're active
00:24:10in the mating market.
00:24:11They're looking for other mates, they're self-obsessed.
00:24:14They're gonna be not willing to have a takeaway
00:24:16on the couch with me on a weekend.
00:24:18- It's the dad of four who's still in shape somehow.
00:24:21- Yeah, it's a bit sus, isn't it?
00:24:22And even it is a sign of infidelity, predicts infidelity
00:24:26if a guy is suddenly getting back in shape.
00:24:28It's like he's trying to re-engage with the mating market.
00:24:31- I also think it's feminine coded.
00:24:34And so it looks to me like the male symptom
00:24:38of social media addiction where you see girls
00:24:41editing themselves, getting cosmetic surgery,
00:24:43obsessing over aging.
00:24:44Have you seen these girls when they go to bed
00:24:45and they have like a sheet mask on and then an eye mask?
00:24:48- I've seen the red light thing.
00:24:50- Yeah, but they have like a hundred different things
00:24:51going on.
00:24:52- There's a post maybe in Slate or Wired about this girl
00:24:57who had a hundred step beauty regime.
00:25:00- Stuff like that.
00:25:00- I sprayed the magnesium on my face before.
00:25:02I think that she was sitting under a lamp
00:25:04that's meant to keep bird eggs alive.
00:25:08She was like putting her face under a lamp
00:25:10like a fucking heater that you would put food
00:25:12on a hot plate under.
00:25:13But I think if you see that you'd think she's very neurotic
00:25:17and maybe not a good partner if she's like obsessed
00:25:20with how she's coming across.
00:25:20- But because the baseline for men is supposed to be lower,
00:25:23even if a man doesn't have a hundred step thing,
00:25:25if he's got a 10 step thing, that's still quite a lot.
00:25:28- Yeah, and it just looks like, as we were saying before,
00:25:32it looks like teenage girls on Instagram,
00:25:34but then applied to it's how young men are reacting
00:25:37to the incentives.
00:25:38Like you said on dating profiles,
00:25:40they've got to advertise themselves like a product.
00:25:42But I think it's also just social media in general
00:25:44because when you like match for someone on a dating app,
00:25:48the first thing you do is look up their Instagram
00:25:50and that Instagram has to show, like we were just saying,
00:25:53that they're a good person.
00:25:55You've got to see evidence of that.
00:25:56You've got to see all the holidays that they've been on.
00:25:58Are they social?
00:25:59And all of these things have to be marketed immediately.
00:26:03And so I think that is where a lot
00:26:05of the looks maxing comes from.
00:26:06- So I was at dinner with, you know, Signal from X,
00:26:10trends all the time, fucking sick.
00:26:12I went to dinner with him last night.
00:26:13I didn't know who he was.
00:26:14Just this like a non, I could have been abducted last night.
00:26:16We turned out to be really interesting guy
00:26:18and now we're friends.
00:26:19And I was going through my little bit
00:26:21about what I think is happening with looks maxing.
00:26:24That guys have a failure of cross-sex mind reading
00:26:28about what other women find attractive.
00:26:30And what they're doing is they're basically coding
00:26:32for other men's formidable and respect,
00:26:35not for female attractiveness.
00:26:36'Cause there's evidence that suggests
00:26:38that women prefer a slightly feminized face,
00:26:40a neutral or a slightly feminized face
00:26:42with a masculinized body.
00:26:44But when you look at some of the lengths
00:26:45that the guys are going to with the jaw surgery,
00:26:47it's gonna get comical.
00:26:49Hasn't yet for clavicular,
00:26:50but I think he's having jaw surgery today.
00:26:52- Oh no.
00:26:53- So like I don't know. - Congrats.
00:26:54- This week, oh my God, he had an overdose two days ago.
00:26:56- Yeah, that's, well, maybe that might be,
00:26:58you could just build the overdose into the jaw surgery
00:27:01and just steam straight through it, I don't know.
00:27:03But after a while, the guys are kind of overshooting,
00:27:06overshooting the androgyny,
00:27:08like the really intense cheekbones and the huge jaw.
00:27:12And again, you can say,
00:27:13well, women don't really know what they want.
00:27:14They do want the gigachat.
00:27:16Something tells me not across all of the different studies
00:27:18that have been done about what is preferred by men and women.
00:27:20You know what would be an awesome thing to do?
00:27:21You should do this.
00:27:23One of your polls should be take clavicular's face now,
00:27:27run it through coves, take it to Macon or whatever,
00:27:30get them to feminize it a little,
00:27:31get them to masculinize it a little,
00:27:33get them to masculinize it more and say of these,
00:27:36and don't say which one is his
00:27:38because that would kind of blind it a little.
00:27:40Anyway, so I'm explaining this and I'm like,
00:27:42guys, because they maybe haven't been around women
00:27:45and because they're not women,
00:27:46they're just, what would women want?
00:27:48Well, they would want what I would think is attractive
00:27:51or respect worthy or whatever.
00:27:52So I'm just gonna like optimize for the androgyny thing.
00:27:55- And to men, the ultimate reward
00:27:57is short-term mating success.
00:27:59They hate being told, oh, you're the guy I would marry,
00:28:02but not the guy I would have a one night stand with.
00:28:04That was a massive--
00:28:05- Bingo, fucking bingo, dude.
00:28:07- So men are optimizing.
00:28:08Well, if women like Chad at all,
00:28:11they want him for short-term.
00:28:13And that's true.
00:28:14There's some evidence that women prefer masculinized
00:28:16just specifically in the short-term context.
00:28:18So given that that's the ultimate reward for men,
00:28:21they're thinking I can pursue that.
00:28:22- I'll optimize that.
00:28:24So Signal's thing, his point was he thinks
00:28:28because all women are basically scrutinized in group chats
00:28:33and living on Instagram.
00:28:35And if you go on a date with someone,
00:28:37all of the people in the group chat
00:28:38are gonna ask what's his Instagram.
00:28:41Guys are optimizing to be as presentable as possible.
00:28:45So the self beautification
00:28:46that men are going through right now
00:28:48is basically them future-proofing themselves
00:28:52from the girl they're going to go on a date
00:28:55with group chat scrutiny of his Instagram.
00:28:58- Yeah, yeah.
00:28:59- Does that make sense?
00:29:00- Yeah, yeah, I think that is true.
00:29:01Well, it's like the app, you know, the tea app.
00:29:03- Yes, fuck.
00:29:04- Are we dating the same guy?
00:29:05- Yeah, but you can like literally rate and review men
00:29:07based off pictures of themselves
00:29:09and like rate them a green flag and a red flag.
00:29:12But that is happening in group chats.
00:29:13And I think a lot of young men think
00:29:16even before they've met someone,
00:29:18all of their memories have to be marketed in a way
00:29:20for a future partner
00:29:22who's gonna be scrolling through their life.
00:29:23So it's like, yeah, when you go on holiday,
00:29:26capturing images, not for the memories,
00:29:28but for this future woman
00:29:30who's gonna be scrolling through your profiles.
00:29:32- That's a nice segue into the mate copying
00:29:34of Nikki Glaser.
00:29:36Have you heard about that?
00:29:37- What was this, the call her daddy thing?
00:29:38- Yeah.
00:29:39- What happened?
00:29:40- So she had an interview where she kind of revealed her,
00:29:43I wouldn't describe it as a cuck fetish,
00:29:45but she kind of told this-
00:29:46- Is it not called Monopoly?
00:29:48It's Monopoly.
00:29:48- Monopoly, well, that's a cool term.
00:29:50- Monopoly.
00:29:51- Yeah, so she basically described that she enjoys
00:29:54seeing her male partner fuck other women.
00:29:57Now she's not into being with other men
00:29:59and this is this very kind of salacious story.
00:30:02And I think there's a number of things happening there
00:30:05is there is some evidence of mate copying
00:30:08that's much stronger in women.
00:30:10The social proofing of other women's opinion of a guy-
00:30:13- It's pre-selection.
00:30:13- Is way more important to them than it is for men.
00:30:15So let's say I was going out with someone
00:30:17that I was head over heels with and in love with
00:30:19and you said, "Oh no, she's not that beautiful."
00:30:22It would have less of an effect on me
00:30:24than it would for a girl having all her girlfriends to say,
00:30:27"No, he's not the one, he's trash."
00:30:30And it makes sense because women's mate value
00:30:32is more observable.
00:30:33So you can only do so much, you have eyes.
00:30:37- Yeah, it's like I don't care, it's like I can see.
00:30:39- Whereas men's mate value is less observable
00:30:42so you have to use these indirect cues like their partners.
00:30:46- So if a guy goes through into a club
00:30:47and he's surrounded by four women,
00:30:50some women are looking at that saying,
00:30:51"There must be something."
00:30:52Or if a guy doesn't look that good
00:30:54but he has a really beautiful partner,
00:30:56they're thinking there must be something,
00:30:58there must have something going for him.
00:31:00- I was talking to Coleman Hughes
00:31:02and he was telling me about
00:31:05when he first started dating his fiancee,
00:31:06maybe in New York somewhere.
00:31:08And he'd be sat down at a table and some guy
00:31:11that read his book or listened to his podcast
00:31:13or whatever would come up and be like,
00:31:13"Colman, I just wanted to let you know
00:31:15"I'm such a huge fan of the podcast and whatever.
00:31:16"Sorry for interrupting you
00:31:18"and I hope you have a wonderful night or whatever.
00:31:19"Would you mind taking a photo?"
00:31:20And Coleman was like, "There is no better wingman.
00:31:24"I've just recruited some guy that I don't know
00:31:27"that it's a fan of my work
00:31:29"and I'm really glad to have as a fan
00:31:30"but I'm even more glad that you spotted me
00:31:33"in this steakhouse with this girl."
00:31:35And yeah, there is this,
00:31:37that's why I think the Black Pill ruling of LMS,
00:31:40yes, L, if you get the,
00:31:44if you don't hit the minimum level of looks,
00:31:47you are going to be at a serious disadvantage
00:31:49that maybe doesn't get to enter the party.
00:31:51But beyond that, I don't think it's M next.
00:31:53I think status counts for so fucking much.
00:31:57Like it's just, it's able to wipe away
00:32:00'cause we would, how long have we had money?
00:32:02How long have we had status?
00:32:03- Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:04And especially when too much physical attractiveness
00:32:07can actually be off-putting to a female partner.
00:32:09They're like, "Oh, I don't wanna have to mate guard him
00:32:11"that hard and he's too obsessed with himself
00:32:13"and too many women like him."
00:32:15It can be off-putting.
00:32:16Is that right?
00:32:17- I get stressed out about men who are too attractive
00:32:20or too extroverted.
00:32:22Don't trust it.
00:32:23- Why?
00:32:24- I just know they'll have so many alternatives
00:32:26and they're more likely to encounter them.
00:32:28It's like, it's a numbers game.
00:32:30Even if you're really desirable at some point,
00:32:33I mean, people habituate.
00:32:35So it's just, it's risky.
00:32:38- There's a relationship between infidelity
00:32:41and extroversion, right?
00:32:42- Yeah, and I kind of wonder if that might play a role
00:32:45into like why women show some of these traits
00:32:48is like there was an incentive from men
00:32:51to not be super extroverted, high confidence,
00:32:54because if that's a cue of sexual--
00:32:57- You wanna signal dad, not Chad.
00:32:59- Well, no, for women, if women are too extroverted,
00:33:01other men might infer she will cheat.
00:33:04And if men have the concern over paternity certainty
00:33:06and cuckoldry, then they might've preferred women
00:33:09who are slightly more insecure, more humble, right?
00:33:13And so women might've encountered mate preferences
00:33:17that selected them to be slightly more insecure.
00:33:21It's less threatening from a mating perspective.
00:33:24- It is interesting though,
00:33:25because I feel like at the moment,
00:33:27my generation of young women are on average,
00:33:31very insecure about how they look and they're very anxious,
00:33:34but they also seem to be louder than ever in terms of,
00:33:37I'm empowered, I'm strong, I'm independent.
00:33:38And so you have women who are really trying to portray
00:33:42that they never get jealous and they never get insecure,
00:33:44but then they seem to have this deep risk aversion
00:33:47and anxiety and I don't know where that comes from.
00:33:49- There are some studies where women who are really agentic
00:33:53and assertive if they're negotiating,
00:33:55they experience backlash where people don't like them,
00:33:57but not if they're negotiating on behalf of someone else.
00:34:01So I kind of wonder if it's like the only way
00:34:03women are allowed to be like tough and agentic
00:34:05is to be an advocate for some moral cause,
00:34:07for someone more vulnerable.
00:34:09It's like the only way you're allowed to be,
00:34:11'cause it seems like that's the domain
00:34:13where you see women all of a sudden be very hostile
00:34:16when you don't get that hostility in any other context.
00:34:19And so maybe that's the one domain where people allow it.
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00:35:33How do you think about the hidden nature
00:35:36of female intersexual competition
00:35:38with the need for assertiveness, independence, freedom,
00:35:40modern world stuff?
00:35:41'Cause I would think, I'm surprised by how well
00:35:46women have acclimatized to the sort of modern career,
00:35:50fast paced, capitalist society thing.
00:35:52I think they're really, not only are they outperforming,
00:35:54I think they're outperforming
00:35:55what my expectations would have been of that.
00:35:58I don't know whether that makes sense,
00:35:59but given what you know about women's disposition,
00:36:03predisposition, selection pressures,
00:36:06is it surprising that they're doing as well as they are?
00:36:09- I don't know.
00:36:09I think in a lot of ways, like the modern world
00:36:11is more conducive to women's traits than men's.
00:36:13Like we're not allowed to be aggressive.
00:36:15The only way they can be aggressive is very subtly,
00:36:18which women are experts at.
00:36:19- They're rewarded in the workplace.
00:36:21- Yeah, and so now in a workforce,
00:36:24you probably are rewarded for being the egalitarian boss
00:36:27or the one who checks in with their employees.
00:36:29So like over time,
00:36:30as we move to like a prestige based competition system,
00:36:33that's more conducive to a lot of women's traits
00:36:35than a dominance based competition system.
00:36:38But I see your point that at the same time,
00:36:39you also have to be like agentic
00:36:41and assertive in the workforce.
00:36:43So it'd be really interesting to see how women
00:36:45navigate that in practice.
00:36:47But there are some data showing that more agentic women
00:36:50are particularly disliked by their female colleagues.
00:36:53And so I think that might lead to women's using
00:36:56these egalitarian strategies as a way of like
00:36:59simultaneously being competitive and assertive
00:37:02while looking kind along the way.
00:37:04- And I think you could say for good reason,
00:37:06the modern world or workplace is kind of designed
00:37:09to neuter men's most aggressive tendencies.
00:37:13You can't exactly get into a physical fight
00:37:15to settle something anymore in the workplace.
00:37:17It's just not acceptable, but you can spread gossip
00:37:21and that is kind of rewarded.
00:37:22So in that style of aggression, women will far succeed.
00:37:26- Have you ever done any bless his heart stuff?
00:37:30- Men do gossip too, right?
00:37:31It's not like just a female thing.
00:37:33- Yeah, we try.
00:37:34So we've manipulated whether a man said it about another man
00:37:38or a woman said about another woman.
00:37:38- You're gonna have to just give a 30,000 foot view
00:37:41of the bless her heart effect.
00:37:42- Okay, basically if women phrase their negative gossip
00:37:44with concern, people didn't register it as gossip.
00:37:47They were more likely to believe that she was a good person.
00:37:51And so it seems like you get these benefits
00:37:53by believing you're concerned about your gossip target
00:37:56or maybe doing it consciously.
00:37:59And then there was a different study
00:38:00where we did look at men and women,
00:38:03where we looked at women's use of like complaining,
00:38:06venting about their friends,
00:38:07like complaining about how their friends treated them.
00:38:09Like, oh, you know, Suzy always says these weird comments
00:38:13to me and they hurt my feelings.
00:38:15If men did that, other people didn't care as much.
00:38:17So it just doesn't work.
00:38:19(laughing)
00:38:21- It seems whiny.
00:38:23- Yeah, it is.
00:38:24It's non-agentic in a way, right?
00:38:26- Yeah, they don't have the same sympathy.
00:38:27In terms of bless his heart,
00:38:29maybe it would work for men
00:38:31because you're just seeming compassionate.
00:38:34I don't know, if we did, it would be interesting to test.
00:38:36- There's a sub stack called men are good.
00:38:38Have you come across this?
00:38:40It's like, it's--
00:38:41- Sounds controversial.
00:38:43- It's really well written.
00:38:44I mean, look, it gets a bit men's rightsy,
00:38:47but some of the insights are fucking money.
00:38:49Like really, really good.
00:38:50Tom Golden, I think he's called.
00:38:52- That name rings a bell.
00:38:54- Really good sub stack.
00:38:55Anyway, he had this one bit where he talked about
00:38:57how men are told that they should open up more
00:39:01about their emotions, but every single incentive
00:39:05pretty much pushes against it, including that of other men.
00:39:08That men don't like to see men
00:39:11who are opening up about their emotions.
00:39:12It's a kind of ick and an aversion.
00:39:14Like you look like an unreliable ally.
00:39:16You're not maybe thinking this consciously,
00:39:18but two things are true
00:39:20that men are trying to do at the moment.
00:39:21It's like men's mental health is a really big issue,
00:39:24but okay, if you see a guy that's crying on social media,
00:39:28will you give him sympathy or will you laugh at him?
00:39:31Almost every guy is gonna go simp, cuck, soy boy,
00:39:34you're an idiot, this is lame, you need to man up.
00:39:36It's like, okay, so which is it?
00:39:38And we spent two hours talking about some of the paradoxes
00:39:42of sort of modern female culture and capitalism
00:39:45versus independence and freedom versus motherhood
00:39:47and just a moment, all this stuff.
00:39:49But I think it's important to call out the ones
00:39:50where guys, you do not get to say men need to open up more.
00:39:55Men need, we need to have more services for mental health.
00:39:59Let's say that men don't believe that
00:40:00'cause a lot of men might say men don't need to open up more.
00:40:02They need to man up more.
00:40:03And you go, okay, do you think that suicide prevention
00:40:05is something that's important?
00:40:06Okay, how do you respond when you see a guy
00:40:08that's incredibly depressed on social media
00:40:10and really struggling because what is it?
00:40:1295% of men that took their own lives
00:40:14had sought mental health advice from the exact services
00:40:18that they're supposed to in advance.
00:40:19Presumably, if you're remotely online and young,
00:40:23you've maybe tweeted or posted something
00:40:25that's a bit sad at some point.
00:40:27Have you checked in on your bro?
00:40:29Like if you were at dinner
00:40:30and one of your friends started crying,
00:40:31how comfortable would you be at sitting in that?
00:40:34Especially if you're British.
00:40:35It's just not, it's not a conducive environment.
00:40:39So men want room for their struggles to be acknowledged,
00:40:44but when other men are struggling,
00:40:47they don't acknowledge their struggles.
00:40:49Does that make sense?
00:40:50- This is where I think the insight
00:40:51from our ancestral history and the selection pressure
00:40:54is men and women faced is so informative.
00:40:56- William, you just fucking put a billboard above your head
00:40:58that says evolutionary psychology is real.
00:41:00- It's coming, right.
00:41:01Okay, but no, the specific pressure.
00:41:03So men have this deep ancestral history
00:41:06of a coalitional value to each other.
00:41:09So to express vulnerability is a massive liability
00:41:11and risk to you and to your allies.
00:41:14So the message that I think struggling men,
00:41:17that would be more effective than,
00:41:19"Oh, you can come cry on my shoulder,"
00:41:21is we need you actually, and you're valuable.
00:41:24- Useful. - You're useful,
00:41:25and we need you to be stronger.
00:41:27So whatever you need to do to get back on your feet,
00:41:29and I know you can do it, you just got to rally.
00:41:32We've all kind of been there.
00:41:33That I feel will resonate with men more.
00:41:35- Much more compelling.
00:41:36You know what's a good example of that?
00:41:39New York divorce lawyer was on the show
00:41:42a couple of months ago.
00:41:44- James Sexton. - Yeah, James Sexton.
00:41:45And he was saying to me, he told me this story about,
00:41:48he was in a relationship with two different women,
00:41:51one after the other.
00:41:53- Okay, I was like, "Okay."
00:41:54- As a divorce lawyer, that would be a high risk strategy.
00:41:57Yeah, fucking, no, it would have been safe.
00:41:59So both women didn't like the fact
00:42:03that on a weekend he doesn't shave.
00:42:05He has to shave every single day before he goes into court
00:42:07because he doesn't want to look stubbly.
00:42:09And then on Thursday night, he would shave,
00:42:12and he wouldn't shave again, maybe until a Monday morning.
00:42:15So by the time it gets to a Sunday, he was real scratchy.
00:42:17And the first relationship he was in, the woman said,
00:42:20"It irritates me so much.
00:42:23"It makes my face red.
00:42:23"It makes me break out in spots, and I really don't like it,
00:42:27"and I wish that you'd shave.
00:42:29"It doesn't make me feel very good."
00:42:30That relationship didn't work.
00:42:32Next woman had the exact same preference,
00:42:34but instead she said, "You know what?
00:42:35"It is so sexy when you're clean shaven.
00:42:37"I think that it's just the hottest thing in the world."
00:42:41Immediate.
00:42:41- I'm doing it right now.
00:42:43I love to have my hair buzz cut short,
00:42:45the fade, for about 15 years.
00:42:47I'm doing the bro flow now
00:42:49'cause my missus just is insistent upon it, so.
00:42:51- But she hasn't said, "I hate you with short hair."
00:42:53She said you're hotter with-- - Not quite.
00:42:56- She said that you're hotter with long hair?
00:42:57- Yeah, she prefers the long hair.
00:42:59- Yeah, but prefers the long hair
00:43:00as opposed to doesn't like the short hair.
00:43:03You know what I mean?
00:43:04- Oh, okay, well fuck, I feel like,
00:43:05do we need to do an intervention?
00:43:06- She's quite a domineering woman.
00:43:08- Yeah, yeah, I've met her.
00:43:09She wears a lot of leather.
00:43:11- Yeah, but I like that about,
00:43:13I think men do respond to encouragement,
00:43:15and I love that about male friendships.
00:43:18If you ever see men in the gym,
00:43:19they'll be honestly giving each other feedback
00:43:21on how to improve,
00:43:23whereas women will be not commenting on each other's form
00:43:26and just chit-chatting about their lives.
00:43:27And so it seems like men really want each other to be better
00:43:31because if that's your brother in arms,
00:43:33you need him to be the best soldier he can be.
00:43:36And so it's so funny,
00:43:37'cause if you listen to male-directed podcasts,
00:43:40they're always like, "How to maximize productivity?"
00:43:43And then female-directed podcasts are the exact opposite.
00:43:48They're like, "You're a queen no matter what you do.
00:43:50"If he doesn't recognize it, leave him."
00:43:53And so then it makes me wonder,
00:43:54if we're receiving this feedback from our same-sex peers,
00:43:58what is that gonna do to men and women over time?
00:44:00Men are gonna go into looks maxing, finance maxing,
00:44:04and then women will just go into wallowing.
00:44:06Yeah, I feel like women wouldn't call each other out either.
00:44:09So if a young woman posted on social media
00:44:12that she had this horrible experience with a man
00:44:15and it was kind of unfair toward the man,
00:44:17the comments are all gonna be in support of her
00:44:19because if she's, say, crying or she's upset on camera,
00:44:22we're all gonna co-ruminate together
00:44:24and then also confirm her maybe neurotic assumptions
00:44:28of what's happened.
00:44:29Whereas I feel like with men, as you said,
00:44:32it doesn't engender the same empathy
00:44:34and so maybe they would have a load of comments.
00:44:36Men prefer the tough love.
00:44:37So there's this new trend I've got
00:44:39where I retweet kind of these random masculinity behaviors
00:44:42as tonic masculinity.
00:44:44And one is this guy, he was morbidly obese
00:44:47and he was gonna die.
00:44:48Like he was really that severe.
00:44:50And his friend texts him every day,
00:44:53"You fat fucking pig."
00:44:58And the guy loves his friend.
00:45:00He's like, "He saved my life."
00:45:01He's literally like just doing that,
00:45:02checking in with me every day and saying,
00:45:04"You fat fucking pig." - Checking in with me.
00:45:05- Well, it worked.
00:45:06Like he said, if he cares enough about me,
00:45:08he needs me to be better.
00:45:10- Yeah, yeah.
00:45:11- Like that was it, it was, that worked.
00:45:11- Whereas women would be like,
00:45:12"You look better than ever."
00:45:13- Right. - Yes, queen.
00:45:16- What does it engender for women
00:45:18as you look at sort of the next generation?
00:45:20The best thing about this, you know, "Critical Drinker"?
00:45:23He had this fucking awesome take.
00:45:25So he compares the first "Mulan" movie,
00:45:29which was the Disney animated one to the live action one
00:45:32that came out maybe five, six, seven years ago.
00:45:34And in the first one, the protagonist is smaller
00:45:38and weaker than all of the men
00:45:39and she needs to disguise herself
00:45:41and she has to use like feminine guile and agility and speed
00:45:45and she has to work even harder.
00:45:46And eventually after doing that,
00:45:48she's able to become the hero.
00:45:49And it's kind of a female story of self-empowerment
00:45:53through determination and agency and working hard
00:45:55and stuff like that.
00:45:57Roll the clock forward by two decades.
00:45:59The protagonist is immediately better than all of the men.
00:46:03She doesn't need to work in it.
00:46:04The only restriction that she encounters
00:46:07is the fact that the world doesn't believe in her enough.
00:46:10- She's a Mary Sue.
00:46:12- Yeah, she's got some like, what's that?
00:46:13- A Mary Sue, some character who's just already perfect.
00:46:16- Okay, yeah, that's like Wonder Woman, no, not Wonder Woman.
00:46:20- The Skywalker film.
00:46:21- No, what's the one in Avengers that can like fix everything?
00:46:25- Wonder Woman.
00:46:26- No, not Wonder Woman, Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel.
00:46:29- Captain Marvel is like,
00:46:30she's like off saving other shit in the universe.
00:46:33You're like, hey, hey, hey, Thanos just killed 50% of everyone.
00:46:35It's like, no, there's other problems elsewhere.
00:46:37And she's like the most powerful of all the superheroes.
00:46:40Anyway, second Mulan movie,
00:46:42she's got this magical oestrogen chi, whatever it is.
00:46:45She's got like some super feminine thing
00:46:46that she's able to just use and she's immediately better.
00:46:49And you go, well, when I think about if I have a daughter,
00:46:52which I hope to, what role model do I want her to have?
00:46:57Do I want her to believe the worldview
00:47:00that the only time that you encounter obstacles
00:47:03is because of something systemic that's out of your control
00:47:06because the world doesn't believe in you?
00:47:08Or do I want her to believe that you can overcome stuff
00:47:11just the same way that the men can?
00:47:13And that if you do encounter obstacles,
00:47:16that's par for the course, there's no entitlement.
00:47:18This isn't something that's wrong.
00:47:20The world is filled with problems.
00:47:22You just need to work out a way to solve them and you can.
00:47:26Not that they're a bug, but they're a feature.
00:47:28- And it's also quite sexist
00:47:29because they lionize the male default.
00:47:32So if a woman shows male typical behaviors,
00:47:34that's how she shows she's kick ass.
00:47:36If she shows feminine guile, like you said,
00:47:39that's not quite the same.
00:47:40They don't want to promote those gender typical behaviors.
00:47:42- I came up with a name for it.
00:47:43The soft bigotry of male expectations.
00:47:46And you remember when there was that hunter gatherer paper
00:47:48that came out. - Perfect example of it.
00:47:50- Can you explain what that was
00:47:51when it was reanalyzed and then reanalyzed again?
00:47:53- So they tried to present data to show that,
00:47:55oh, the man, the hunter is basically a myth
00:47:59and that loads of cultures have women
00:48:01as the hunters in the society.
00:48:03But they were really coding their data
00:48:05where any society that a woman did any hunting at all,
00:48:09a rabbit, one rabbit killed,
00:48:12that is coded as woman was hunting as well,
00:48:15even if men were by and large responsible
00:48:17for doing the live game. - 364 days of the year
00:48:19they were doing it.
00:48:20- Yeah, and what's really annoying is
00:48:21there's actually a really cool story
00:48:22if you look at our hunter gatherer past
00:48:24is that women contributed as many, if not more,
00:48:27calories to the society through their gathering.
00:48:31And that's cool, but it's sex specific.
00:48:33But it's just as good.
00:48:35You don't have to be just the same as the men
00:48:38to be as good or good in a different way.
00:48:41It's like, it's actually really sexist
00:48:44if they think you have to be like men.
00:48:46It's a fucking massive amount of bigotry
00:48:48that devalues what would have been
00:48:50whatever female coded behavior.
00:48:52And this is the line from Andrew Schultz
00:48:54where his wife who used to work at Google
00:48:56had their first kid and would then be walking
00:48:58around the supermarket near where her ex co-employees
00:49:02and colleagues would walk around.
00:49:03They said, what are you doing now?
00:49:04And she'd say, I'm just a mum.
00:49:06And he said, it was the just that killed him.
00:49:09That there's something about doing something
00:49:11that was inherently female coded
00:49:14that was seen as less valuable.
00:49:16You go, how is this not sexist?
00:49:19Is this not fucking sexist?
00:49:20To say the thing that came to you naturally,
00:49:23the gathering as opposed to the hunting.
00:49:25Well, women can do it just as much as men
00:49:27and maybe sometimes even better.
00:49:29And you go, well, yeah, but that implicitly devalues
00:49:33the thing that they were doing more of.
00:49:36Like it's very, I don't know, it feels like bigotry to me.
00:49:38Is there something going on whereby like feminine guile
00:49:42is meant to be kept mysterious
00:49:44and you don't want it said out loud
00:49:46the way you do things or something?
00:49:48- I don't know.
00:49:48I just think like maybe it's like an assumption
00:49:51that like women are a block, a monolith
00:49:54when in reality women have competing interests.
00:49:57So like feminism isn't operating on behalf of all women.
00:50:01It's really good for hyper-agentic women.
00:50:05It might be penalizing the women who are more female typical,
00:50:08who are more nurturing, who want these things.
00:50:11And so it's kind of tragic that like,
00:50:13as a result of championing these women,
00:50:15we have to also like denigrate these women.
00:50:18And it seems like if you really wanted to be pro women,
00:50:22support them in whichever direction they take.
00:50:25- For a community that's trying to be very inclusive,
00:50:28it's highly exclusionary.
00:50:29- Yes, yes, to critique some women
00:50:32for wanting like love and babies.
00:50:34It's like, that's beautiful, support all types.
00:50:38- I also think it's because we have a somewhat therapeutic
00:50:41culture now where the ultimate goal for women
00:50:44is like self-actualization.
00:50:45So it's becoming their authentic selves.
00:50:48And that's why you see these storylines in movies
00:50:51where the woman is basically trying to find
00:50:55her authentic self and then everyone else is a distraction
00:50:58and an obstacle, the men then become obstacles.
00:51:00And it goes back to the beginning of the conversation
00:51:02with marriage and women having a negative view of men
00:51:07and the risk aversion because they will be an obstacle
00:51:10to their self-actualization.
00:51:11And that is now the ultimate mission.
00:51:13- There's a moment in the second Dr. Strange Marvel movie
00:51:18where a zombie version of Benedict Cumberbatch
00:51:21goes back in time to tell the female protagonist
00:51:25who is a Latina daughter of a lesbian couple
00:51:30called America Chavez that she just needs
00:51:34to believe in herself.
00:51:36Like that's where she was born as the most powerful person
00:51:41in the world and she's got this thing
00:51:43but she just didn't believe in herself enough.
00:51:44And that kind of goes to the podcast thing.
00:51:46Which again, like it just to me, it feels really patronizing
00:51:49to tell women that you're perfect as you are.
00:51:53Like you are immutable and the world is mutable.
00:51:57You don't need to change yourself.
00:51:58The world should bend around you.
00:51:59Whereas male podcasts say the world doesn't give
00:52:01a single fuck about you.
00:52:03You need to do everything you can to try and counteract
00:52:05this entropy locally, brah.
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00:53:20That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.
00:53:25- On the topic of sexism, Freya,
00:53:28I'd like to put you on the spot a bit at the moment.
00:53:31- You're calling me a sexist? - I would include you.
00:53:33Well, we'll see.
00:53:35I wanna ask you a few questions.
00:53:36You've been described as the voice of Gen Z women.
00:53:40So this would be very interesting
00:53:42to get your opinion on these questions.
00:53:43So I'm gonna read them up to you.
00:53:44So Tanya, I already know what you think
00:53:46because we're working on this together.
00:53:48So is it closer to sexist towards men or women
00:53:52to believe the following things?
00:53:54One, women have a superior moral sensibility.
00:54:00- Sexist toward men, I would say.
00:54:01- Okay, women have a quality of purity few men possess.
00:54:05- Sexist toward men.
00:54:08- Women have a more refined sense of culture and taste.
00:54:12- Sexist toward men.
00:54:12- Okay, full house, sexist towards men.
00:54:15Next set of questions, we're almost done.
00:54:18Do you think it would be a good or bad thing
00:54:19if men mostly agreed with the sentiment
00:54:22of the following statements?
00:54:23A good woman should be set on a pedestal.
00:54:29- Good. - Okay.
00:54:31- Women should be cherished and protected by men.
00:54:34- Good.
00:54:35- Men should sacrifice to provide for women.
00:54:37- Good.
00:54:38- In a disaster, women need to be rescued first.
00:54:41- Good.
00:54:42- Every man ought to have a woman he adores.
00:54:44- Good.
00:54:45- Men are complete without women.
00:54:47Or men are incomplete without women.
00:54:50- Yeah, good.
00:54:51- Despite accomplishment, men are incomplete without women.
00:54:54So same. - Yeah, good.
00:54:55- And people are often happy without romance.
00:55:00- Bad.
00:55:01- Okay, you are a massive benevolent sexist.
00:55:03- Fascist.
00:55:04(both laughing)
00:55:05- Those are the items on the benevolent sexism scale.
00:55:09And I polled all my followers on this,
00:55:12and they, like you, believe that the statements
00:55:15were either sexist to men or a good thing, right?
00:55:18So it kind of begs this question
00:55:20of what is this scale measuring?
00:55:22So this is an idea that Tanya and I
00:55:24and some other colleagues are working on
00:55:26that we call the mismeasurement of men.
00:55:29Now, that title is strategic
00:55:30because there was a famous book called
00:55:33"The Mismeasure of Men" by Stephen Jay Gould,
00:55:35who was very critical of evolutionary psychology
00:55:38and evolutionary approaches to human behavior.
00:55:40And we think it's the precise opposite
00:55:43that's happening in scale development in psychology now,
00:55:46that a lack of insight into evolutionary psychology
00:55:49and to science in general
00:55:51is creating these crazy problematic scales.
00:55:55So you've got scales that are measuring
00:55:57toxic masculinity, benevolent sexism,
00:56:00and male sexual entitlement
00:56:03that are actually problematic in so many ways.
00:56:05But one of the ways is they're measuring
00:56:08awareness of facts about the world.
00:56:11So one of the items is women are often attracted
00:56:14to muscularity and dominance,
00:56:17and that's taken as evidence of toxic masculinity.
00:56:20And there's no attitude added on to that inference.
00:56:24It's just, do you know that that's sometimes the case?
00:56:26And it is sometimes the case.
00:56:28And these scales,
00:56:31they're like what I call the Cathy Newman of scales.
00:56:34They require an extra inference
00:56:37about the implication of agreeing with the statement.
00:56:40So you believe that women deserve to be protected.
00:56:43Oh, so what you're really saying is
00:56:45they should have their autonomy limited
00:56:47to keep them safe for their own good.
00:56:49And it's like, that's not measured.
00:56:51So it's a total mismeasurement of men.
00:56:53And it also pathologizes women's own preferences.
00:56:56So women have strong preferences
00:56:58for protection and provisioning,
00:57:00and men care about being seen as attractive to women.
00:57:03So they're going to prioritize that over being seen as sexist.
00:57:06So it's a huge problem we see.
00:57:09But yeah, sorry to tell you if you're a man.
00:57:10- So is that the same as internalized misogyny?
00:57:13Same concept?
00:57:14- Not quite the same.
00:57:15So benevolent sexism is one end of the scale
00:57:18of what's called ambivalent sexism.
00:57:20On one end of the scale, they have hostile sexism,
00:57:22which is like direct antipathy towards women
00:57:25to be like, oh, women are trash, basically.
00:57:28Like really direct and obvious.
00:57:29Whereas benevolent sexism is this more subtle
00:57:32putting a kind of infantilizing of women
00:57:34and which I believe could be a real concept.
00:57:38But when I looked under the hood at these items
00:57:41that were used to measure it, I couldn't believe it.
00:57:43I just thought that they're absurd.
00:57:46- Well, that reminds me of the New Statesman piece
00:57:48because the New Statesman piece basically concluded
00:57:51that liberal women are unhappy.
00:57:53And then everybody was basically, we spoke about this.
00:57:56They were saying that this is,
00:57:58no one's spoken about what's going on with liberal women.
00:58:00This is new.
00:58:01Like the New Statesman are the first
00:58:02to have the balls to say it.
00:58:03- Well, it's a phrase they're probably not banging around.
00:58:06(all laughing)
00:58:07- No, but the interesting thing is,
00:58:09is that I sort of get viewed with the internal misogyny thing
00:58:14because I will say the same thing,
00:58:16which is liberal women are unhappy.
00:58:18But I'll also say it's because they have these unmet needs.
00:58:21It's because they want to belong.
00:58:22And it's like a compassionate worldview
00:58:24that I think women want to be protected.
00:58:27They want to feel like they're safe and stable
00:58:29and all of these things.
00:58:31But then I get the, that's a sexist point of view,
00:58:33but the New Statesman can present it
00:58:35and say young women are unhappy
00:58:37and draw different conclusions.
00:58:39And then it's not a sexist point of view.
00:58:40- Your female privilege has been revoked.
00:58:42(all laughing)
00:58:43You don't have the female privilege
00:58:45that you once thought you did.
00:58:45- 'Cause I'm white.
00:58:46- Because you're white, because you're right of center.
00:58:49- Yeah.
00:58:50Yeah, I then don't get treated as a woman at all.
00:58:54- No, you're an honorary man.
00:58:56Congratulations, it's three on one.
00:58:58(all laughing)
00:58:58- So in the literature,
00:58:59there's this kind of confusion about,
00:59:02oh, women are perplexingly attracted to benevolent sexism.
00:59:06And this is like a problem.
00:59:07It's an inconvenient finding.
00:59:09But when you look at the way the items are written,
00:59:11it's needless.
00:59:12'Cause I think women are attracted to men
00:59:14who believe women should be protected.
00:59:17But I don't think they're attracted to men
00:59:18who would add on the extra inference and would say,
00:59:21oh, because women need to be protected,
00:59:23they need to have their rights listed for their own good.
00:59:26So if you had the item written in a proper way,
00:59:28in the scale designed in a proper way,
00:59:30you would actually have no problematic attraction
00:59:32to benevolent sexism.
00:59:33- Do you remember that video of the two travelers in Thailand?
00:59:38And a guy pulls out a knife.
00:59:39It's CCTV footage.
00:59:41- Oh, I think I have seen it, yeah.
00:59:42- Yeah, it went super, super viral.
00:59:44And all of the replies and all of the quote tweets of it
00:59:47were, go, he's trash.
00:59:48So this guy pulls out a knife
00:59:49and he's trying to steal the woman's bag
00:59:51and she fights him off.
00:59:52And the guy hides behind a fucking pillar.
00:59:54The dude hides behind a pillar.
00:59:55So there's two things that are sort of, yeah, icky, right?
00:59:58I mean, we all have this sense that you should protect.
01:00:01Dude, what was that fucking thing that I said?
01:00:03I put this in the group chat six months ago
01:00:05and I fucking called it and I was right
01:00:07about the fact that women would be less,
01:00:11there would be more, oh, here it is.
01:00:13Look at this.
01:00:14- Oh no.
01:00:16So that guy's got a knife and homeboy hides.
01:00:21Homeboy hides behind the pillar while she is fighting him.
01:00:24And there's another dude that just comes over and,
01:00:26maybe he's with the guy.
01:00:28And then this guy with the fucking--
01:00:29- A benevolently sexist man, he's over
01:00:33and thinks the woman cannot defend herself.
01:00:35And what a sexist son of a bitch.
01:00:36- I know, what a pig.
01:00:38What an absolute pig.
01:00:38Is it the dude on the bike?
01:00:40I think it's a--
01:00:41- He comes in with a helmet, yep.
01:00:43- Dude, a helmet to the head.
01:00:45- A suit to the head.
01:00:46- Yeah, so almost everybody was universal in this.
01:00:51That guy that's hiding behind the pillar is,
01:00:53what are you doing, dude?
01:00:55Come on, like, yeah, it's a knife
01:00:56and fucking scary or whatever, but like do something.
01:00:59- Women's preference for protection is seriously strong.
01:01:02So I ran a poll asking which would have a stronger effect.
01:01:05- This was my idea.
01:01:06Don't fucking say I would run a poll.
01:01:08This is my idea, dude.
01:01:10- Okay, and I was even surprised by the results.
01:01:13Women said it would have a stronger effect
01:01:15on their attractiveness to a man
01:01:17if they found out he was unwilling to protect them
01:01:21than it would be if he cheated on her in a one-night stand.
01:01:24- Yeah, that was really strong.
01:01:26- I kind of wonder if maybe that's one factor
01:01:28in why women aren't interested in men nowadays
01:01:31is men don't get to display those abilities.
01:01:33- Exactly right.
01:01:34No one's coming back from war.
01:01:35- Yeah, if we're not seeing men defending our groups
01:01:38or hunting, you don't get to see the value
01:01:40of male formidability or the display of it.
01:01:43I'm starting to wonder if women even realize
01:01:47how much stronger men are.
01:01:49When I ask my students,
01:01:50I present this sex difference in upper body strength
01:01:53and they're surprised.
01:01:54And I'm like, what?
01:01:56- There's this viral trend on TikTok apparently now
01:01:59where it's asking couples to ask the guy
01:02:03to go into the challenge of putting her in handcuffs
01:02:05in 30 seconds.
01:02:06And they're like, it's the greatest foreplay ever.
01:02:08It's like, women get so turned on by it.
01:02:12- Wow, realizing the strength difference is crazy.
01:02:14- Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing
01:02:16that Andrew Thomas was talking about.
01:02:17Does Andrew do Krav Maga or some shit?
01:02:20He does some kind of martial artsy thing, right?
01:02:24And he's saying that the ability to turn on
01:02:28and turn off aggression is really rare.
01:02:31Like most guys, the aggression sort of bleeds out
01:02:34in the same way as your level of obsession
01:02:37and how much you pay attention to patterns
01:02:39is great when you're trying to write new piece,
01:02:41but it's not so great when you're dealing
01:02:43with your intimate relationship or whatever.
01:02:45Guys that are aggressive are good.
01:02:48If homeboy comes on with a knife, forget running away.
01:02:51He's licking his lips.
01:02:52The guy's like, oh, I've waited my entire life.
01:02:54And then just pulls out an armory of things to kill him with.
01:02:56You're like, okay, everyone's like Tim Kennedy.
01:02:58But very few men have learned to turn that off.
01:03:02And I think what's got crossed over a little bit here
01:03:06is that women love the idea of a man
01:03:09who is able to be aggressive, but never to them.
01:03:14And unfortunately the guys, I mean,
01:03:16how many MMA fighters have had like awful abuse,
01:03:21domestic abuse situations that you've selected for a guy
01:03:25who is, he is gonna really, really stand up for me.
01:03:29Well, yeah, but maybe that's also,
01:03:31that's not to say that all fucking MMA fighters
01:03:32are gonna be home abusers.
01:03:34But this has happened a bunch of times.
01:03:35You go, it's hard to turn that aggression off.
01:03:37And the protector thing is great,
01:03:40but the just raw regression thing carries on.
01:03:43It's a trade-off women have to make.
01:03:45And it's predictable the ecologies
01:03:47in which they'll actually select a really formidable mate.
01:03:50And it's predictable based on the individual differences
01:03:53in that woman's size.
01:03:54Smaller women in those dangerous ecologies
01:03:57tend to have a stronger preference
01:03:58for a really strong, aggressive form.
01:04:00What would a dangerous ecology in the modern world be like?
01:04:03So, I mean, there's rough areas of,
01:04:05I used to live in Birmingham.
01:04:06There was rough areas of it.
01:04:08- It's as rough as it gets, yeah.
01:04:09- We did a study where we tried to see this.
01:04:11We tried to prime women to think about,
01:04:13so we had them learn about,
01:04:14imagine your friend Sarah tells you about an experience
01:04:18with her boyfriend.
01:04:19And in one condition, the boyfriend and her are in a fight
01:04:22and he gets so mad that he punches a wall.
01:04:24And then in the other condition,
01:04:25the boyfriend defends her against this guy
01:04:28coming, trying to rob her.
01:04:29And we thought it was gonna make,
01:04:32when we primed women to think of the man as the aggressor
01:04:35punching the wall,
01:04:36we thought women were gonna dislike the formidable men,
01:04:39but they had the same preferences as normal
01:04:41where they were totally fine with the formidable guy.
01:04:43But we did find when we primed them
01:04:45with the protector condition, they liked all men more.
01:04:48So like all men.
01:04:49And so, but to your point,
01:04:52like I think like maybe women aren't aware
01:04:54of those trade-offs totally because-
01:04:56- Because those two men are likely to be the same person.
01:04:58- Yeah. - Yeah.
01:04:59- The guy that's really, really competent
01:05:01and prepared to go for it in the protection thing,
01:05:04maybe he's gonna punch a wall as well.
01:05:07- And they weren't registering it as like,
01:05:08well, maybe I should use cues of formidability
01:05:11as a predictor of like which men
01:05:12would be likely to be violent.
01:05:14And so it was odd that they didn't show that aversion.
01:05:18And so I'm not sure if that link is like
01:05:20as explicit in women's minds.
01:05:22- Isn't it strange as well that there's a,
01:05:25especially among young girls, the sort of Gen Z girls,
01:05:28I guess maybe more like Gen Alpha now,
01:05:30if you look at the phrenology of the guys
01:05:33that they're trying to go for,
01:05:34guys are almost signaling like anime character levels
01:05:39of cuteness, the tousley hair, the very sort of thin body.
01:05:43Certainly there's the Lux Maxing teens
01:05:45that are going in the other direction
01:05:46that are basically trying to speed run manhood.
01:05:48- The soft boy.
01:05:49- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:51Is that what the aesthetic is?
01:05:52- Yeah, and I think that's because it's less threatening.
01:05:54- Exactly, bingo, bingo.
01:05:55Post Me Too World, this guy,
01:05:57he couldn't even force himself on me if he wanted.
01:06:00Like there's no reason,
01:06:01he's basically like a cuddly teddy bear best friend
01:06:03that I get to be in a relationship with.
01:06:05- Yeah.
01:06:06- But when you think about like,
01:06:08what is that pushing toward?
01:06:11Well, at some point those women
01:06:14are probably gonna diverge away.
01:06:16And I think that--
01:06:16- What John Peterson used to say about
01:06:18you don't wanna dominate your partner.
01:06:20So it's not a good long-term strategy
01:06:22to have a partner that you don't find threatening at all
01:06:25and would never protect you and that you can dominate
01:06:27because you don't wanna be in a relationship
01:06:29where you're controlling.
01:06:30- You see them as a child eventually though.
01:06:31- Well, this was the,
01:06:32who's the blonde researcher lady
01:06:37that did the Come On Face?
01:06:38- Catherine Simon.
01:06:39- Catherine Simon.
01:06:40Fucking hero.
01:06:41- The research on the Come On Face.
01:06:43- Shout out Catherine Simon.
01:06:44She fucking rules.
01:06:45But she was talking about how after 50 Shades of Grey came out
01:06:49and the dark romance genre really started to pick up steam,
01:06:52which obviously I contributed to.
01:06:54And there was a world where this was
01:06:58politically inconvenient,
01:06:59especially for the sort of feminist side of the aisle
01:07:02because all of the guys that were being chosen
01:07:04to be the protagonists were highly dominant,
01:07:07highly assertive, tall, strong, masculine,
01:07:10millionaire, billionaire, CEO people.
01:07:13So they tried to put more pliable,
01:07:16they were called golden retriever husbands
01:07:18or cinnamon roll husbands.
01:07:20And they tried to put sort of a more soft pliable guy
01:07:24on the cover and also the story throughout.
01:07:27Shock, horror, they didn't sell well.
01:07:30And this is short-term mating and fantasy,
01:07:32the same way as what a man watches in porn.
01:07:37The porn that I watch, might be great porn.
01:07:40- Or the sex dolls.
01:07:41- Might not want to be in a marriage with her, right?
01:07:44Tell me about sex dolls, your specialist subject.
01:07:46- Yeah, I was glad to make the shift from in-cell researcher
01:07:49now to sex doll researcher.
01:07:51So I've got the full gamut
01:07:52and they actually kind of connect in a way.
01:07:55They're the main consumer base of sex dolls.
01:07:57So I came across this amazing-
01:07:59- That's a unfortunate way to open the sentence.
01:08:01- Let me rephrase that.
01:08:02I happened upon this amazing data set
01:08:04that was publicly available
01:08:06that had all the body specifications
01:08:09of sex dolls that are on the market.
01:08:12And this study that was published
01:08:13was very descriptive in nature.
01:08:15And it was just describing the dimensions
01:08:17rather than saying why they might be that way.
01:08:20So I did a kind of my own analysis on it
01:08:22and showed that they reveal all the kind
01:08:26of classically predicted male mate preferences.
01:08:28And it's interesting because these artificial depictions
01:08:31of female sexual beings are like a undiluted window
01:08:35into men's mate preferences
01:08:37because these dolls, they can take on any form.
01:08:39They're not limited by nature.
01:08:41They're just literally
01:08:42whatever the consumer wants them to be like.
01:08:44And there's this,
01:08:45it's not just that the creators of sex dolls
01:08:48make them that way and the consumers have no choice.
01:08:51There's this co-evolution of the market
01:08:53with the consumer and the producer.
01:08:55A good example is-
01:08:56- They wouldn't buy something they didn't want.
01:08:57- Exactly right.
01:08:58There's no market for really obese sex doll.
01:09:01But there's a smaller market, let's say.
01:09:04- There's a niche for everything, William.
01:09:05- But the dolls typified
01:09:08all the classic evolutionary predicted mate preferences,
01:09:11but except they did so
01:09:12in an extremely super normal stimuli way.
01:09:16- So have you got images of them?
01:09:16Can we pull this image up?
01:09:17- I do have an image.
01:09:19I did send through my image.
01:09:21- Here's something that you prepared earlier
01:09:23from your armory of sex dolls.
01:09:25- It reminds me there are these beetles
01:09:27that will try to mate with glue bottles.
01:09:30Yeah.
01:09:30And I would show it to my class and I'm like,
01:09:32anyone who watches porn, that's also you.
01:09:35It's the same thing.
01:09:36- Humans are easily convinced.
01:09:38- I'm gonna fucking, I'm gonna say it.
01:09:40I think that romancy is for women what porn is for men.
01:09:44- Yeah.
01:09:45- You know, there's a great video of this dude
01:09:48and the woman's saying she's comparing Disney movies
01:09:52to real life.
01:09:53And she's like, the dad's gone, the dad's gone.
01:09:56She's alone and the dad's gone.
01:09:57And like all of the problems
01:09:59that Disney princesses had to go through.
01:10:00And the dude does it with like a quarter thorns and roses.
01:10:03And it's like, he's got a big thing.
01:10:04He's got a big thing.
01:10:06He's got a big thing and something in his eye.
01:10:07He's got a big thing and he can fly as well.
01:10:09Like there's another one that I saw of a girl
01:10:12talking about what I read in my romancy novel.
01:10:17And it's, I would wait until the death of a thousand suns
01:10:20just to get to touch your cheek one more time.
01:10:23And then it cuts to what she's got in her real life.
01:10:25And it's like, the trash is smelling again from a partner.
01:10:29But unrealistic expectations for what are the key triggers
01:10:33for romance and attraction and stuff like that.
01:10:37Supernormal stimuli is everywhere, dude, even in romancy.
01:10:40- Yeah, and one of the kind of the white pills on it
01:10:42is that it's still really low status
01:10:45for the guy to be a sex doll haver.
01:10:47I mean, it's very embarrassing
01:10:48when you start talking about your collection, Chris.
01:10:50It kind of does lower your status.
01:10:51- My collection is just Deborah So.
01:10:53I just have one and it's Deborah So.
01:10:56- Oh my God.
01:10:57But yeah, but for now it's low status to have sex dolls,
01:11:00but maybe that'll change in a while.
01:11:02- I don't think it's gonna change
01:11:03because there's no selection.
01:11:04It's the same reason that guys can't flex
01:11:06the amount of OnlyFans that they subscribe to, right?
01:11:08If you can get something that everybody else has,
01:11:12especially in a market where getting something
01:11:15that no one else can get is highly valued,
01:11:18it's seen as desperate.
01:11:19If I can see you naked for the price
01:11:21of a cheeseburger per month,
01:11:24that's not going to be high value.
01:11:26It's going to suggest, oh, I can't get this really,
01:11:27so I'm gonna have to get it privately.
01:11:29- But maybe a subset of men will say,
01:11:31ultimately, I don't care about the status now.
01:11:34I'll just compete.
01:11:35This will satisfy my sexual urges more and more convincingly
01:11:38when you integrate AI into the system.
01:11:42Maybe they'll just retreat into that world
01:11:43and video games will be their other status game.
01:11:47They will internet.
01:11:47- Male sedation, dudes.
01:11:48Male sedation turned up to 11.
01:11:50Jared, I want to see these sex dolls.
01:11:51What are they?
01:11:52- While he's searching for that,
01:11:53I'll tell you an interesting story
01:11:54that I learned when writing this paper.
01:11:56It's actually confusing from one level of analysis
01:12:00why women have smaller feet than men,
01:12:03but it's a sexually selected feature
01:12:05because adult human women are the only species,
01:12:09the only mammal that carries a pregnancy on two feet.
01:12:12And it's really dangerous to have falls
01:12:14that might terminate the pregnancy.
01:12:15So you'd actually expect them
01:12:17from a biomechanical perspective
01:12:19to have evolved really big feet for stability and all that.
01:12:22But they don't.
01:12:23They have really small feet
01:12:24and men have a preference for small feet.
01:12:26And it is a sign of femininity
01:12:28because with each age and pregnancy,
01:12:30women's feet get bigger and bigger.
01:12:32- You're fucking kidding me.
01:12:33- Yeah, so they have small feet.
01:12:35- Okay, so if you're a slightly older woman
01:12:37who's had a ton of kids...
01:12:39- Big feet, yeah, 5'11".
01:12:42- The same is true for women's faces.
01:12:43So men's preferences,
01:12:45well, actually what we view as attractive in a female face
01:12:48is like neoteny, looking like a child.
01:12:51And if you amp up those features,
01:12:53they're the same features
01:12:54that make people wanna take care of babies,
01:12:56also make women more attractive
01:12:58and people wanna help women more.
01:12:59So they're like just selected to be neotenous.
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01:14:05That's drinklmnt dot com slash modern wisdom.
01:14:10One other bit from the New Statesman article
01:14:12I thought was really interesting.
01:14:14Women feel much more negatively towards young men
01:14:16than young men feel about them.
01:14:1850% of women have a neutral or negative view of men.
01:14:2172% of men have a positive view of women.
01:14:25For all of the talk about manosphere inspired misogyny,
01:14:27three times more women hold a negative view of men
01:14:31than men hold of women.
01:14:31Only 21% of women have an actively negative view of men,
01:14:35but only 7% of men feel the same.
01:14:38Men are told that they're the problem,
01:14:40but then you look at the data
01:14:41and young women are significantly more negative toward men
01:14:44than men are toward women.
01:14:45Men get dragged in the media,
01:14:47but are still showing up more optimistically about women
01:14:50than the other way around.
01:14:51- But women are fulfilling their part of the bargain.
01:14:54Like if you looked at it from a trade-off perspective,
01:14:56like women are--
01:14:57- Here's my beauty.
01:14:58- I'm contributing, bringing more to the table financially
01:15:01and everything.
01:15:02The women, if you asked them, I bet they'd say,
01:15:04"Yeah, well, we're right, they're wrong."
01:15:07Or, "We're right and they're right."
01:15:08- But why would you hold an actively negative view of men?
01:15:12- Well, because they see only the risks.
01:15:14They see the--
01:15:15- But this is not a view of relationships.
01:15:18This is an actively negative view of men.
01:15:20This seems to be much more judgmental.
01:15:22Men are bad in and of themselves.
01:15:24Men are bad over there
01:15:25or they're bad when they're trying to get with me?
01:15:26- Yeah.
01:15:28- I would think that was something to do with porn
01:15:30because, and I also think that explains,
01:15:33you say that women are attracted
01:15:35to feminine-looking anime men.
01:15:38I think because maybe they've grown up
01:15:40watching very hyper-masculine porn stars
01:15:44being really rough and violent with women
01:15:47and then they go for the non-threatening mate.
01:15:50And then also they develop this view of men
01:15:53based off maybe the most brutal videos
01:15:56and seeing it from such a young age.
01:15:58But then you develop, you generalize that to all men.
01:16:01- I still don't understand why you'd be actively negative.
01:16:0421% actively negative.
01:16:07- I wonder if it's that signal to other women
01:16:09that I'm team women.
01:16:11Although my student, Michaela,
01:16:12she's designing a scale of opposite sex hatred.
01:16:15And what's amazing, speaking of scales,
01:16:17no scale exists to measure sexism in both sexes.
01:16:21So you can never, no one has ever compared
01:16:24whether men or women are more sexist.
01:16:26- Guess which one is more sexist?
01:16:29- Which one?
01:16:30- Women.
01:16:31Women hate men more than men hate women.
01:16:33Totally in line with this.
01:16:33- Which makes sense from error management perspective as well.
01:16:36- Yeah.
01:16:37- I also think something I've noticed
01:16:38is that young women are often,
01:16:41again, because self-actualization is the ultimate goal,
01:16:44they're often deterred from committing
01:16:47and relationships now more so than young men.
01:16:49So if young men say that they're going
01:16:52to get engaged young, for example,
01:16:54other young men are usually happy for them.
01:16:56You know, like they've got out of the dating game
01:16:57and the dating market.
01:16:58If women do it- - Last jumper out of Saigon.
01:17:00- Yeah, but if women commit early,
01:17:02other women express this fear for them.
01:17:05Like, oh, you're going to give up some of your potential.
01:17:09And I think that's because we think
01:17:12that women had more to be liberated from.
01:17:14And so now if women close down their options,
01:17:18we see that as suspect and we worry for them.
01:17:20- Well, also it depends.
01:17:21If you get Danny Sulikowski pilled,
01:17:25it would be there's an eligible man
01:17:27that's prepared to protect and provide
01:17:29and he's now off the market.
01:17:31And it throws into harsh contrast the,
01:17:34I mean, that was the whole variety piece
01:17:36about having a boyfriend is cringe now.
01:17:39The girls didn't want to post about their relationship online
01:17:42because it made their single friends feel bad.
01:17:44With the single friends feel bad,
01:17:45that presumably is going to show up at some point
01:17:47in the pushback online and they're going to feel triggered
01:17:50by the fact that fuck, like it is tough.
01:17:53The dating world is tough,
01:17:54especially for young people at the moment,
01:17:55especially for young girls at the moment, right?
01:17:57They're trying to navigate this thing.
01:17:59We talk about the problems of the dating environment for men
01:18:01and thereby kind of miss the problems
01:18:03that women are facing in the dating market,
01:18:05including ones that are not self-imposed,
01:18:08but they're at least like intrinsic.
01:18:10Either their uncertainty, their fear, their social anxiety,
01:18:14the worries about letting go of their freedom
01:18:18and their independence.
01:18:18Like these are real things.
01:18:20Whether they're manipulated or manufactured
01:18:22by a modern environment, there's still things
01:18:24that you have to navigate and that fucking sucks for women.
01:18:27- And I think the forensic kind of stalking
01:18:31that groups of women do on a potential new mate.
01:18:34I mean, even my girlfriend,
01:18:35she tells me about the deep dive she did
01:18:37on my years old tweets.
01:18:39Lucky to come out of it alive, really.
01:18:42- Glad that she didn't go on your Blue Sky.
01:18:43- But that's like group.
01:18:44- Oh, I know, yeah.
01:18:45No one does.
01:18:46(laughing)
01:18:47- You're so bitter about Blue Sky.
01:18:49No engagement apart from people that hate you, dude.
01:18:52- Get off that.
01:18:53Self harm.
01:18:54- Torture porn.
01:18:55But no, they really do this kind of collective condemnation,
01:18:59deep diving.
01:19:00Everyone is a little bit cringe in some way
01:19:02and you can find how they're cringe.
01:19:04So in some level, you have to almost accept
01:19:06that your new boyfriend is a little bit cringe.
01:19:08And that's what I told my girlfriend.
01:19:10(laughing)
01:19:11We're very happy together.
01:19:13Embrace the cringe.
01:19:14- Yeah, Tanya, what do you reckon about icks?
01:19:17Have you done any research on icks and stuff like that?
01:19:20- No, but there does, like anecdotally,
01:19:22there seems to be a sex difference
01:19:23where like women get the ick and then men do not.
01:19:27Yeah, I wonder if it's like a absence of a sufficient,
01:19:31like you need some threshold of masculinity.
01:19:35And if you don't cross it, then,
01:19:37or if you indicate anything that violates it,
01:19:40I don't know, you'd probably know
01:19:41what's the stronger predictor.
01:19:42- Well, I'm not obviously an evolutionary psychologist,
01:19:44but I see it from a cultural perspective
01:19:45that you have so many messages coming at young women
01:19:48to be on guard, constantly on guard,
01:19:50like looking for problems.
01:19:51And so you have a feminist message
01:19:53that you have to be independent.
01:19:54You can't let a man get in the way of your goals.
01:19:56But then you also have a therapeutic message,
01:19:58which is like be on guard for any red flags,
01:20:01any signs that someone is not good enough
01:20:03or you're incompatible.
01:20:05And so I think young women might feel something like an ick
01:20:08and then they're encouraged, especially by social media,
01:20:11to take that feeling really seriously,
01:20:13which is like if you feel some negative emotion
01:20:16toward your partner, you're incompatible
01:20:18or there's something wrong.
01:20:19And so I think we're just way more,
01:20:21we're bracing all the time to see the red flags.
01:20:24- And it also kind of announces, like you said,
01:20:27kind of allegiance to the Sisterhood Alliance,
01:20:29but also elevates their own mate value.
01:20:31It's like, oh, there's just a total scarcity of guys
01:20:34in my standards. - My standards are so high.
01:20:36Things are so difficult.
01:20:38I have a refined palette.
01:20:39I wouldn't be able to eat at a fucking IHOP this evening.
01:20:44- I always feel like that about men who say they have types.
01:20:46I'm like, I just don't buy it.
01:20:48Like, oh, I only like plants.
01:20:50- This was the, you know,
01:20:51of all of the things that I went through on Love Island,
01:20:53this was one of the weirdest ones,
01:20:54which is that you turn up and one of the first questions
01:20:57that the press during your lockdown week
01:20:58and you're doing interviews
01:21:00and all of the interviews for the show,
01:21:01one of the first things is what's your type?
01:21:04What is it you're looking for?
01:21:05But not what are you looking for?
01:21:06It's who are you looking for?
01:21:08And maybe that would have changed.
01:21:1010 years ago when I was on,
01:21:11in fact, it was more than 10 years ago
01:21:13when I was on Love Island now, right?
01:21:15What's your type?
01:21:16What do you mean?
01:21:17Who is like, oh yeah, it's ginger girls with a blue,
01:21:22they have to have blue eyes.
01:21:23They can't be too blue, but like, if they're a little,
01:21:24I'm like, who the fuck has these weird autistic preferences
01:21:29for a partner?
01:21:30Because they're only talking about it physically.
01:21:32They're never saying, oh, I want someone,
01:21:34I want someone who is really in touch with their emotions.
01:21:36I want someone who is, they wouldn't have even said,
01:21:40I want someone who has these interests.
01:21:42Like physically, what are you looking for?
01:21:45- I think it's just a way for,
01:21:46and guys anyway, I think it's a way of just pasturing like,
01:21:49oh, I can be so specific and narrow my choice parameters
01:21:52so much 'cause I have so many options.
01:21:54- Yeah.
01:21:55- And I've been always a little bit susser
01:21:56that I've never bought it.
01:21:57- Yeah.
01:21:59Some of the new polling done at the New Statesman suggests
01:22:02that privileged women are the most pessimistic of all.
01:22:05Women in middle-class professions are less likely to say
01:22:07they feel valued by society and less likely to believe
01:22:09that if they work hard, they will succeed in life
01:22:11when compared to their working class counterparts.
01:22:14Young men are now more likely to be unemployed
01:22:16than young women, yet young women
01:22:18are far more financially cynical.
01:22:2021 points less likely than young men
01:22:22to believe they will ever out-earn their parents.
01:22:25White women are more likely to feel the country is racist
01:22:28than their non-white women middle-class partners.
01:22:32- You white women are awful.
01:22:33- Yeah.
01:22:35- I wonder how much of that is like related to that finding
01:22:38where the only way that women could be agentic
01:22:41was like on behalf of someone else.
01:22:43So like the more successful that you are
01:22:46or the more that you have going in your favor,
01:22:48the only like way that you can be agentic
01:22:51is to like be so deeply caring.
01:22:54There are some ethnographies on adolescent girls
01:22:58and the only ones that were allowed to be popular
01:23:01were if they were super, super nice.
01:23:04And so they had to like kind of over-deliver on like kindness
01:23:08in order to be allowed to be popular.
01:23:10And so it feels a little bit like that same pattern
01:23:12that like perhaps women do this so the envy or resentment
01:23:17of other women won't bring them down.
01:23:20Joyce Benenson has this--
01:23:21- Hero, friend of the show.
01:23:22- Oh, she's the best, I'm obsessed with her.
01:23:24She has this paper on leveling showing that like
01:23:28women are more likely to use a leveling strategy
01:23:30where they say like, oh, we should all be equal
01:23:32when someone is surpassing them.
01:23:34And so I wonder if like once you have all of these things
01:23:38operating in your favor, you kind of have to be like a martyr
01:23:42in order to like continue on.
01:23:44Otherwise people might--
01:23:45- Where do you get your victimhood points from?
01:23:48I won't say who said it in our group chat
01:23:49but someone replied to Rob Henderson bringing this up
01:23:52and said, "Middle-class hay fever, Rob.
01:23:54"When there's no high load of parasites,
01:23:57"people's immune system gets bored
01:23:58"and starts looking for things to react to
01:24:00"and you get allergies to dust and pollen.
01:24:03"When the middle-class has no threats,
01:24:04"their threat system gets bored
01:24:05"and starts looking for trivial things
01:24:07"to blow out of proportion.
01:24:08"White privilege, gender identity, ultra-processed foods,
01:24:11"it's all pollen.
01:24:12"You don't have oat milk, you're traumatizing me.
01:24:15"No explicit segregation and blatant racism,
01:24:17"sensitivity to microaggressions increases."
01:24:19- That's what I was gonna say
01:24:20is I think it's more time to introspect and ruminate
01:24:23because you have girls and young women
01:24:25not just picking up on icks in their partner
01:24:28and like scrutinizing them and looking for flaws
01:24:30but then doing that to themselves.
01:24:32So constantly pathologizing, diagnosing themselves,
01:24:35wondering what's wrong with them,
01:24:36over analyzing their personality traits.
01:24:39And so I do think it's just more time
01:24:41and less bigger problems like say having children
01:24:45where you put your neuroticism,
01:24:46you funnel it into something productive
01:24:49and instead it then turns inwards
01:24:51or also against your partner.
01:24:53- There is status afforded to women doing that.
01:24:55In that ecosystem, in that social system of higher education
01:24:59where women are dominating now,
01:25:02they're rewarded for espousing views like that.
01:25:04So they're showing that they know the ideology
01:25:07of the leading status people in their world.
01:25:11- This is me showing fealty to the cause.
01:25:13I understand this thing.
01:25:15What's the data around men and women being demonized
01:25:19and seen as victims?
01:25:21- So we have some studies showing that like
01:25:25we have this like kind of cognitive heuristic
01:25:27of victim and perpetrator.
01:25:29And when men and women are like involved
01:25:32in any instance of harm,
01:25:34we're more likely to see women in the victim role
01:25:36and men in the perpetrator role.
01:25:38We're more likely to blame men
01:25:39and more likely to have sympathy for women.
01:25:43And so it would suggest like perhaps some of the reason
01:25:45we don't see a lot of sympathy for men
01:25:47is it's like cognitively harder to see them as victims.
01:25:51And then for women it's just cognitively easier
01:25:55to see them as victims and so we feel that sympathy.
01:25:58But this is, it kind of sucks for both sexes.
01:26:01So in the domain of harm, men are disadvantaged
01:26:04and they're not seen as victims.
01:26:05But for women in the domain, in other domains
01:26:08where you'd wanna be the agentic person,
01:26:10like if you're deciding on a CEO or a president,
01:26:14women aren't seen as agentic and as capable.
01:26:18So it's not like one sex is clearly doing better
01:26:21than the other, they're both facing these like--
01:26:23- One doesn't get sympathy and one doesn't get belief.
01:26:26Yeah, I guess that's one of the challenges
01:26:28I think that women face when they go into the workplace
01:26:30that they feel like if they need to be assertive
01:26:31and dominant, they have to temper the throttle
01:26:34a bit a little bit for fear of being bitchy.
01:26:37They don't wanna be a bitch, right, or a diva.
01:26:39- Yeah, I feel like there's like an agency warmth continuum
01:26:43and women are expected to be here
01:26:45and if they go farther along agency,
01:26:47they're seen as low in warmth, bitchy.
01:26:49But the same is true for men.
01:26:50They're higher on the agency side
01:26:51and so if they show warmth by crying,
01:26:53they're not seen as competent.
01:26:55So like we're both encouraged to stay in our lanes.
01:26:58- But if women show too much warmth,
01:27:00they seem as pliable and not competent
01:27:03because it seemed that people that are a little bit more
01:27:05brusque are seen as higher competence, right?
01:27:08Warmth is negatively associated with competence, I think.
01:27:11- And I just think this kind of protectiveness
01:27:14that we have about women,
01:27:16it just gets repackaged as oppression in a way.
01:27:20And I get that you could be paternalistic and overly
01:27:23and a lot of kind of abuse of women does occur
01:27:26under the guise of for their own good and protection.
01:27:29But it is astounding the extent to which
01:27:32we are more protective of women than men.
01:27:35- You have to really contort yourself into a lot of knots
01:27:38to see the women are wonderful effect
01:27:42and think of it as oppression toward women.
01:27:45Like can you, do you know much of the stats
01:27:48around the women are wonderful effect,
01:27:49like all of the different ways
01:27:50that people prefer women to men?
01:27:52- I know one study that looked at this kind of
01:27:54where they looked at job hiring discrimination
01:27:57and it's gone down against women
01:27:59but people overestimate its presence.
01:28:02And so they assume it's still there
01:28:04even though the data suggests clearly it's not.
01:28:06So it's like, we're almost like just sensitized to detect it
01:28:10even if it's not there.
01:28:12- And even when you learn about some discrepancy,
01:28:15if it's against women, people are up in arms about it
01:28:18but if it's against men, it's like no biggie.
01:28:20- Is attractiveness under acknowledged
01:28:23as a kind of privilege?
01:28:24- Oh, I think so, yeah.
01:28:25So on both ends of the spectrum.
01:28:27So the pretty privilege, which also has its costs.
01:28:30There's costs associated with being seen as pretty
01:28:33other women in particular see was more promiscuous
01:28:35and things like that.
01:28:36But there are enormous benefits across the board
01:28:38to being attractive male or female.
01:28:41But then at the other end of the spectrum
01:28:43there's enormous cost to being unattractive.
01:28:45And there is new research that shows
01:28:47that we're not readily able to recognize
01:28:50this form of privilege.
01:28:52We acknowledge other forms of privilege
01:28:54but attractiveness we're reluctant to acknowledge
01:28:57that it even exists.
01:28:58And we also have evidence that women
01:29:00are far more attractive than men.
01:29:02It's not just one okay cupid study.
01:29:05Loads of data unpublished from our lab
01:29:07finds this attractiveness discrepancy.
01:29:09There's tons of data.
01:29:11Women are just more attractive.
01:29:12So arguably a feminine advantage
01:29:14in the domain of attractiveness
01:29:16when that can be translated into so many resources.
01:29:20There are studies to show that beauty is status for women.
01:29:23Women defer to more beautiful women
01:29:25in the way that men defer to more formidable men.
01:29:29So this is an advantage.
01:29:31And it could be another thing
01:29:32that's actually a less acknowledged point
01:29:34about what's putting women off having children
01:29:37is that they hear these horror stories.
01:29:39They literally have to take a massive beauty hit.
01:29:41And that's just, there's no way around that.
01:29:43It's less than they've ever had to take
01:29:45but it's still there.
01:29:46It's so funny that having kids would impact your beauty
01:29:52but the effect of pretty privilege is denied and hidden.
01:29:55Yeah.
01:29:56It's like, well, if that is playing into it,
01:29:58you have to admit the fact that it's there.
01:30:00Yes, yeah.
01:30:01Yeah, I don't think people would acknowledge
01:30:04at face value that's one of the reasons.
01:30:05Well, you do see them sometimes women are like,
01:30:07I'm not sacrificing my body for that.
01:30:09And we have new data come out that shows
01:30:13that relationships having being a parent,
01:30:15similar levels of happiness to not being a parent,
01:30:19greater levels of meaning for the parents,
01:30:22especially for women,
01:30:23but lower relationship satisfaction for the parents.
01:30:26So it does take a toll on the relationship
01:30:29but certainly on the woman's mate value thereafter.
01:30:31Having the kids, the toll it takes on her beauty.
01:30:34So you can kind of see why women,
01:30:36if there's all these benefits,
01:30:37they can translate their beauty, which is their status into,
01:30:41they'd be reluctant to sacrifice all that.
01:30:43Yeah, I mean, this is kind of what we were talking
01:30:45about before, which is that I think social media platforms
01:30:47have incentivized women to see themselves less as human
01:30:51and less, and more as products.
01:30:53And so their life becomes about marketing themselves
01:30:56and optimizing themselves.
01:30:57And so I think, yeah, having a child disrupts
01:31:01being the perfect, pristine product.
01:31:03But then we're in this really weird scenario where,
01:31:06don't you want to look good in order to reproduce
01:31:08and have children at base level?
01:31:10But now Instagram comes along and Instagram,
01:31:13it gives women so much dopamine and status
01:31:17that then that becomes a higher priority.
01:31:19Yeah, because it's a misconception about evolutionary
01:31:22psychology that we have these fitness optimizing mechanisms.
01:31:25We actually have, we're adaptation executioners.
01:31:28So it's not like, it's just that behaviors
01:31:30that over evolutionary time would have resulted
01:31:33in more offspring are passed on.
01:31:36So women still have the desire to have sex for the most part.
01:31:40People don't come into the world with,
01:31:42oh, I really want to increase my reproductive success.
01:31:45I want to have offspring, but they do want to be seen
01:31:49as a high mate value to others, have sexual urges.
01:31:52And over time, those things would have resulted
01:31:54in reproductive success.
01:31:55So now it's a bit of a mismatch.
01:31:57Joyce Benenson, she has this like cross cultural study
01:32:01where she shows like among young people,
01:32:03one of their primary goals is finding a romantic partner,
01:32:07but one of their lowest goals is having kids.
01:32:10And so she makes this argument that like,
01:32:12we probably evolved a desire to attract a mate,
01:32:15but we didn't need to evolve the desire to have kids
01:32:18because so long as you were having sex,
01:32:19you were having kids.
01:32:20- Exactly, you didn't have reliable contraception, yeah.
01:32:23It's a hugely evolutionary novel technology
01:32:26that's really just thrown the whole thing up in the air.
01:32:28- I think also in the young women,
01:32:29sometimes the relationship becomes an accessory
01:32:32to display online.
01:32:34- What was your line about that in the episode
01:32:36that we did a couple of years ago?
01:32:37It was relationships are just brand partnerships now.
01:32:40- Yeah, it's something to display.
01:32:43And so the characteristics that maybe you would select for
01:32:47before social media are very different.
01:32:48Now it's presenting it to other women
01:32:51and how other women will react.
01:32:53Seeing your, yeah, your launch of a partner online.
01:32:56- Yeah, the soft launch.
01:32:57- Yeah.
01:32:58(laughing)
01:32:58- They're not about this though.
01:32:59- 60% of romantic relationships begin as friendships.
01:33:03This making the world harder to date in?
01:33:06- Well, given that there's fewer
01:33:08and fewer cross-sex friendships,
01:33:09I think it should be celebrated that this is an avenue
01:33:13towards relationship formation.
01:33:15And the age old question of can men and women
01:33:18ever just be friends?
01:33:19We've just got a new paper accepted that shows
01:33:22that we call it courtship and cross-sex friendship
01:33:25where men provision financially to their cross-sex friendships
01:33:29that they're interested in mating with.
01:33:3150% of people say they have romantic interest
01:33:35in a cross-sex friend.
01:33:36The same number have had sex with at least one,
01:33:39particularly young people.
01:33:41So I do think it's a good pathway to relationships.
01:33:44And if you formed more cross-sex friendships,
01:33:47it would be a direct route to relationships
01:33:50because attraction grows over time.
01:33:53You get proximity breeds intimacy,
01:33:56but also you get to display a lot of the same qualities
01:33:59that make for a good mate make for a good friend too.
01:34:02And men and women select friends
01:34:04who have the same qualities that they want in a mate.
01:34:06So protection, physical attractiveness, resources.
01:34:10So it's a good pathway,
01:34:11but the secondary route is it broadens your networks
01:34:14and it also helps you learn about cross-sex mind reading.
01:34:18So it's very hard to actually come to the boneheaded beliefs
01:34:21of some of the red pill, black pill world online.
01:34:25If you actually have in real life female friends
01:34:29that you know kind of disprove a lot of what you hear.
01:34:32- I'm gonna quote you back to you here.
01:34:33William Costello polled 527 heterosexual and bisexual people.
01:34:38Are opposite sex friendships ever truly platonic?
01:34:4181% of women said yes.
01:34:44Only 58% of men said yes.
01:34:46Women were three times more likely than men
01:34:49to say their friendship was purely platonic.
01:34:50- So I think women hear that
01:34:53and they sometimes get very upset
01:34:54that to learn that their male friends see them as--
01:34:57- Maybe half of your guy friends
01:34:59are trying to sleep with you.
01:35:00- Well, not necessarily.
01:35:01It's just that they kind of would.
01:35:03So, and this is the kind of the misconception
01:35:06that women maybe hear that and they think,
01:35:08oh, so he only wants to sleep with me
01:35:09and it's not quite the case.
01:35:10- He just would. - It's just that
01:35:11he probably would.
01:35:12Yeah, it's like when people hear about this
01:35:15for the first time and they doubt it,
01:35:16I always say, just try it.
01:35:18Just try when you're out for a few drinks the next time.
01:35:21- Do you remember that one in The Economist?
01:35:23A study of Americans finds that in platonic couples,
01:35:25men are far more likely than the woman
01:35:27to find their friends sexy
01:35:28and far more likely to think
01:35:29that she finds them attractive too.
01:35:31Indeed, a man's assessment
01:35:33of how much his female friend fancies him
01:35:35matches how much he fancies her
01:35:37and is entirely unrelated to how she really feels.
01:35:40Clearly, men are prone to wishful thinking.
01:35:42- Yeah, well, men need to kind of pluck up the courage
01:35:44some way and if they have to.
01:35:45- Everyone wants to be asked out more.
01:35:47That was your thing.
01:35:48- That's true also.
01:35:49So, you know, on the one hand,
01:35:50women want to be approached more,
01:35:52but then are kind of unhappy to learn
01:35:54that their opposite sex friends are interested in them.
01:35:57But I do think women keep some opposite sex friends
01:36:00as backup mates too.
01:36:01- Oh, you've got loads of data around backup mates.
01:36:04Come on.
01:36:05- I just think ultimately we should celebrate
01:36:08and try and cultivate more opposite sex friendships
01:36:11'cause it could be a pathway to proper relationship.
01:36:13- I wonder if on social media
01:36:15that disincentivizes opposite sex friendships
01:36:19because you live in different worlds completely.
01:36:21So we were talking earlier
01:36:22and you hadn't heard of influencers
01:36:24that like shaped my childhood.
01:36:26- How did I not know Moella?
01:36:27- Zoella.
01:36:28- Whatever.
01:36:29- Zoella.
01:36:30(laughing)
01:36:31- Do you know Zoella?
01:36:31- I've heard of her.
01:36:32- There we go.
01:36:33- Sorry, you're an avid subscriber of Zoella.
01:36:35- I've heard about the program.
01:36:36- Did you get ready for today with Zoella?
01:36:38- No, I didn't.
01:36:39- A new try on haul from Jim Shaw?
01:36:40- I know that things get--
01:36:41- But it's like Zoella, but also Facetune.
01:36:44Facetune is a huge app among young women
01:36:46where they can edit themselves.
01:36:48- I hadn't heard of it.
01:36:49- So I think one of the statistics in my book
01:36:51is like 70 or 80% of young women
01:36:53wouldn't post on Instagram
01:36:55without Facetuning themselves first.
01:36:57- It makes me so relieved to hear this.
01:36:59(laughing)
01:37:01Every photo should have that attached to it.
01:37:03But it's been downloaded like hundreds of millions of times.
01:37:06It's a core memory from my childhood.
01:37:08But then, so I write this whole book
01:37:10about social media and the experience for young women.
01:37:13But then for young men,
01:37:15they have a completely different childhood.
01:37:17So it can be a young man that grew up near me.
01:37:19- RuneScape.
01:37:20Playing RuneScape.
01:37:21- I did play RuneScape.
01:37:22- You played RuneScape?
01:37:23- Yeah.
01:37:24- You said that you were a bit more of a--
01:37:25- I'm a bit more masculine.
01:37:26- Yeah.
01:37:26- Yeah, but so, yeah.
01:37:28They will not even recognize things
01:37:30that were huge influences on young women.
01:37:32And so I wonder if we try and be friends
01:37:34with the opposite sex,
01:37:35it's like a whole different world
01:37:36because algorithms are suggesting--
01:37:38- You already didn't have that much in common
01:37:39and now you've got even less.
01:37:40- Interesting, yeah.
01:37:41That's a good idea.
01:37:42- What else?
01:37:43Are you brandishing some graph I can see
01:37:45that you've got on your phone there?
01:37:46What have you got?
01:37:47- Did you find that sex doll yet?
01:37:48(laughing)
01:37:50- I have a question about the opposite sex friends.
01:37:54Is there a sex difference in the degree
01:37:56to which our opposite sex friends
01:37:58match our mate preferences?
01:38:00Because if there's not,
01:38:02if both men and women are like designing their opposite
01:38:04or selecting opposite sex friends
01:38:06based on their mate preferences,
01:38:08then when women say,
01:38:09"Oh, I'm not attracted to my opposite sex friends."
01:38:12Is that true?
01:38:13- I've seen data around this.
01:38:14I've seen data that shows that the same traits
01:38:18that you look for in a partner
01:38:20are the ones that you look for in your opposite sex friends.
01:38:23I've seen this.
01:38:24- Yeah, so if men and women do that to the same degree,
01:38:27then is that really the case when women are saying--
01:38:29- They can't be so shocked.
01:38:30- Yeah, like what are the odds that--
01:38:32- The tall, handsome guy that looks exactly the same
01:38:35as my actual boyfriend thought that--
01:38:37- Oops.
01:38:38(laughing)
01:38:39- But it's kind of like from a jealousy perspective,
01:38:41you can see why it would be really jealousy inducing
01:38:44for a man, for his mate to have opposite sex friends
01:38:48or work colleagues who are sharing a mission together.
01:38:52Like you hear of these things of women
01:38:54calling someone their work husband.
01:38:56I'm like disaster tactic.
01:38:58- No, do not do that.
01:38:58- It's a bad idea.
01:39:01So I do think that men are inclined to kind of pump the brakes
01:39:04on women's careers for a mate guarding perspective.
01:39:07And an opposite sex friendship perspective as well.
01:39:11One more thing on the looks maxing, Chris,
01:39:14is I thought it was interesting that,
01:39:17did you see the Australian guy
01:39:18you interviewed, Clavicular?
01:39:20- Yeah, I was gonna say he's more effortlessly good looking.
01:39:24And I think that--
01:39:25- Yeah, I think that's true that for men to be handsome,
01:39:27it needs to be like they didn't try.
01:39:29- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:39:30- Now I've done a little bit of a deep dive
01:39:32into that guy's Instagram.
01:39:33He certainly tries and he certainly knows
01:39:35he's a handsome guy and whatever.
01:39:37But he's definitely pulling off
01:39:39that effortlessness much more.
01:39:41But it's interesting that the commentary
01:39:43around him being, Clavicular being mobbed
01:39:46by this more handsome Australian interviewer,
01:39:49it's kind of proving Clavicular's philosophy exactly correct.
01:39:53He's like, you're saying that he's more handsome,
01:39:56so he mogs me, that's my whole philosophy.
01:39:59I'm exactly right, it's all about looks.
01:40:01- Why do you stand tall with people like that?
01:40:05- All right, have a nice day.
01:40:07Are you trying to, I see you all make this political.
01:40:12Too bad I didn't have time to look into anything
01:40:16about potentially who your wife cheated with,
01:40:21but don't try to go down that line of questioning with me.
01:40:26All right, because I'm not doing any political--
01:40:28- I'm not married.
01:40:29- Yes, I'm doing, but sorry.
01:40:31- I was simply out of the arse because obviously--
01:40:33- Maybe you got a looks back then.
01:40:34So I could teach you about looks back then then.
01:40:37Maybe you could switch that up.
01:40:39Thanks for the time, appreciate the interview.
01:40:42All right.
01:40:42- I mean, look, they did light them quite nicely,
01:40:46which was good.
01:40:47It was definitely quite a sultry,
01:40:48if that turned into gay porn,
01:40:49I wouldn't have been surprised.
01:40:51- Yeah, and he proves his whole thesis right
01:40:53for people's reaction to be like,
01:40:55he's the more handsome one.
01:40:56It's like, yeah, you're lionizing looks.
01:40:58- I thought we weren't judging people based on looks.
01:41:00I thought that looks maxing was stupid
01:41:01and it didn't really matter.
01:41:02- Exactly right, so yeah.
01:41:04- But isn't he more handsome because his demeanor,
01:41:06he's playful and he's smirking.
01:41:08I feel like Clavicular just looks so tense
01:41:11and neurotic almost.
01:41:12- Called autism.
01:41:13- Yeah, I think Clavicular does those things on purpose,
01:41:15like stages the walk out for attention.
01:41:17- Yeah, yeah, of course he does.
01:41:20- But yeah, that effortlessness,
01:41:21I do think is more attractive to women.
01:41:23- Well, the same thing is true to men as well.
01:41:27Think about the difference between Sidney Sweeney
01:41:29and Sabrina Carpenter.
01:41:30Sabrina Carpenter is a female designed for the female gays
01:41:35and Sidney Sweeney is a female designed for the male gays.
01:41:38- Or gay male gays.
01:41:39- Yes, correct, bingo.
01:41:41And yeah, why is it that men love Sidney Sweeney
01:41:44and hate Sabrina Carpenter?
01:41:45And why is it that women love Sabrina Carpenter
01:41:47and hate Sidney Sweeney?
01:41:48- There is research to show women hate women
01:41:51with big breasts as well.
01:41:53- They're really-
01:41:54- Well, if you see very small, very dull, very big eyes,
01:41:57very like, you know, small body, big head.
01:42:00Like-
01:42:00- Neotenous.
01:42:01- Neotenous.
01:42:02- Sabrina does exactly what you've described, Tanya,
01:42:04though, the for the girls.
01:42:06Whereas, you know, Sidney Sweeney is-
01:42:08- Very much for the guys.
01:42:09- Even says it in her Instagram posts and things, so.
01:42:12- Yeah, and it's like women's fashion is like that,
01:42:15where it's like, it's almost like you could tell immediately
01:42:17who someone is signaling to,
01:42:19because women's will be like the baggiest thing
01:42:22you could possibly find, and that's the trendy look.
01:42:25And it's like, not revealing their body at all.
01:42:28I'm sure men hate it.
01:42:30- Yeah.
01:42:31Alex Cooper on Call of Daddy, they're always in big hoodies.
01:42:34They're always sort of quite slouchy, very cozy.
01:42:37- I do think the pick me insult is really sort of drilled
01:42:40into women of my generation where it's like,
01:42:43it's not even if you're saying something
01:42:45that men would approve of or looking away
01:42:46that men would approve of, but anything like masculine coded.
01:42:50Like even me just saying I'm interested in masculine podcasts
01:42:53rather than feminine podcasts,
01:42:54that's like a pick me statement.
01:42:56And so I feel like it changes not only how women
01:42:59present themselves, but their mannerisms
01:43:01and their actual temperament and personality
01:43:03becomes shaped towards what women expect of them
01:43:07because they don't want to be a pick me.
01:43:08- Yeah, it's such a clever form of intersexual competition
01:43:11to be like, don't be seen to be trying to appeal to men.
01:43:14That's-
01:43:15- Isn't that the same as like a cuck?
01:43:17Like men are doing it too.
01:43:19- Simp shaming, yeah.
01:43:20- Yeah.
01:43:21- And slut shaming men.
01:43:22- And simp shame, yeah.
01:43:23- Anyone who appeals too directly, that's cheating.
01:43:26- The game theory of slut shaming fucking blows my mind.
01:43:29I learned this in "Mate" by Jeffrey and Tucker.
01:43:32And basically what slut shaming does
01:43:35is it's a price enforcement mechanism
01:43:37to ensure that the price of sex doesn't drop below a level
01:43:40that most women would be happy with.
01:43:42So if William's prepared to give out blowjobs
01:43:44on the second date, but I want to wait until the fifth date,
01:43:47I have to lower my-
01:43:48- I don't want that in confidence.
01:43:49- I know, I'm sorry.
01:43:50That means that I need to lower my price.
01:43:54So it's in my interests to raise that up,
01:43:57especially given that I would be able to undercut it.
01:43:59If I make everybody else wait longer to put out
01:44:02and then I can come in as like the bargain discount,
01:44:04that seems like a good deal.
01:44:05But what is it that's happening?
01:44:07It's women giving away what is seen by other women
01:44:11as one of their most valuable resources
01:44:13for negotiating with men, sex,
01:44:16giving it away too freely.
01:44:18So I started thinking about,
01:44:19okay, what's the equivalent for men?
01:44:21What do men give away?
01:44:22And I think it's resources.
01:44:23So if women are prepared to give away sex without commitment
01:44:27and that gets castigated by other women,
01:44:30men who are prepared to give away resources without sex
01:44:34get castigated by other men.
01:44:35That's why men don't like OnlyFans women,
01:44:38because they are extracting from the male dating pool,
01:44:42the thing that if they weren't able to do it through OnlyFans,
01:44:46they might have to go on a date, maybe with me.
01:44:48And that would mean that I would be in with a shot.
01:44:50- This is why I get attacked both ways,
01:44:52'cause I'll get called an internal misogynist
01:44:55and then men will come to my defense
01:44:56and then they'll get called simps.
01:44:57(laughing)
01:45:00- Exactly right.
01:45:01That's both things in action, yeah, 100%.
01:45:03- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:45:04Guys, I fucking love you all.
01:45:05You're all brilliant.
01:45:07What have you got coming out?
01:45:08You've got a book?
01:45:09- Yes, just a book called "Girls"
01:45:11and my sub stack, freyaindia.co.uk.
01:45:13- Tanya, what have you got to push, anything?
01:45:15- A new paper called
01:45:16"The Greater Female Vulnerability Hypothesis."
01:45:19It's still getting published, so not yet out.
01:45:22- Okay.
01:45:23- My blue sky.
01:45:24(laughing)
01:45:26Just follow me on X, you'll see lots of fire poles
01:45:29and some exciting stuff coming out.
01:45:31Follow me on Google Scholar to see the academic stuff.
01:45:33- Unreal.
01:45:34Guys, I appreciate you all.
01:45:35We've christened Evolutionary Psychology Roundtable,
01:45:38getting in loads of trouble in the new studio.
01:45:40I appreciate you all.
01:45:40All right, goodbye everybody.
01:45:42- This was fun.
01:45:43- Yeah, it was fun, yeah, of course.
01:45:46- Thank you very much for tuning in.
01:45:47If you enjoyed that episode,
01:45:49another one that I know you'll love.
01:45:50It's just here.