00:00:00Nir Eyal, welcome to the show.
00:00:02- Thanks, Chris, great to be back.
00:00:03- Dude, 2019, episode 104, all the way to now.
00:00:08- I'm gonna take credit for all your success since then.
00:00:10(laughing)
00:00:11- It was, it was built--
00:00:12- Is that okay, was I the lucky charm?
00:00:14- It was built on a foundation of you and indestructible,
00:00:17that's exactly correct.
00:00:19New one, all about belief.
00:00:20Why is belief so important?
00:00:23- Okay, so beliefs turns out to be the lens
00:00:29with which we see the world.
00:00:31And I had no idea how profound this research
00:00:34that's been coming out over the past several years
00:00:36has on our day-to-day lives.
00:00:37How beliefs shape what we see, literally shape what we see.
00:00:41I can show the same exact image to two different people
00:00:44and they will see completely different things.
00:00:45It's called the coffer illusion.
00:00:46You can look at this piece of paper
00:00:47and I can show you to one person based on where they grew up
00:00:51and their priors, their beliefs, and they'll see circles.
00:00:54I can show it to somebody else based on where they grew up,
00:00:56they'll see rectangles, it's incredible.
00:00:59Beliefs not only shape what you see,
00:01:01not just figuratively,
00:01:02but they actually shape reality that you see,
00:01:03they shape what you feel, your internal state,
00:01:06and most importantly, they affect what you do.
00:01:08And so everything comes upstream from these beliefs.
00:01:11And so you better get these beliefs right
00:01:13if they're going to run your life.
00:01:15- I think one of the challenges people have
00:01:19when they hear the word belief
00:01:20is it gets perilously close to Rhonda Byrne,
00:01:23The Secret, Manifestation.
00:01:26You know, you've come from a productivity background,
00:01:28same as me, kind of hardcore, quite sterile almost in a way,
00:01:33very sort of frameworks, rigid structures.
00:01:37Belief sounds almost whimsical as a topic to get into.
00:01:41- You know, that is a great point
00:01:44because there is a lot of bullshit out there.
00:01:48So part of what I wanted to do with this research
00:01:51that I've done over the past six years for Beyond Belief
00:01:54was to really separate what works and what doesn't.
00:01:56And a lot of it, frankly, I'll give that crowd some credit.
00:01:59A lot of it works, but not for the reasons they say it does.
00:02:02(laughing)
00:02:04That like, you know, I hate to burst anybody's bubble,
00:02:06but no, nothing is vibrating and quantum whatevering
00:02:11and like the universe really doesn't give a shit.
00:02:14It is not, you know, all the manifesting stuff.
00:02:17It can work, kind of, and I do dive into some research
00:02:22around how it turns out positive thinking
00:02:24can have a very negative effect if you don't do it properly.
00:02:29So I kind of wanted to dispel some of those myths
00:02:30and yet, I've changed my mind about a lot of stuff
00:02:34that I didn't used to do and I used to kind of,
00:02:37you know, I'm very science backed.
00:02:38You know, all my books have pages and pages of citations
00:02:41to peer reviewed studies.
00:02:42I have to see the study, not just it worked for me,
00:02:44but I need to see the peer reviewed studies
00:02:45that show that it worked for others in a controlled study.
00:02:48And so there's a lot of mythology out there.
00:02:51Even in the academic community, to be honest,
00:02:53there's a lot of studies that I look through
00:02:54that I thought were kind of, you know, gold standard studies
00:02:56and you kind of dig into how they were done methodologically
00:02:59and you realize, oh, they're kind of crappy studies too.
00:03:02So it was a lot of sorting through the meat from the chaff
00:03:05to figure out what we can actually
00:03:06practically apply to our lives.
00:03:08The good news is there's a lot of unbelievable research
00:03:12that has come out of the past several years
00:03:14that just absolutely blew my mind.
00:03:15For example, one thing is that we now know
00:03:18that placebos work even when you know they're a placebo,
00:03:24which we didn't used to know before, right?
00:03:25We used to think that placebos had to have
00:03:26some kind of deception effect, right?
00:03:28That you had to, both people,
00:03:30the person prescribing the medication
00:03:32in a double blind control study
00:03:34had to not know who was receiving the placebo
00:03:36and the person, of course, receiving it
00:03:37couldn't know if it was a placebo.
00:03:39Turns out that's not true, that you can get amazing effects.
00:03:42Ted Kaptchuk at Harvard showed this with IBS patients.
00:03:44He gave people a pill bottle that said placebos on it.
00:03:48By the way, you can go on Amazon today
00:03:50and buy placebo pills with five star reviews
00:03:53that say, "Amazing how fast acting this placebo was."
00:03:56It's incredible.
00:03:57He told people, "Hey, this is a placebo.
00:03:59"It is a completely inert substance.
00:04:02"However, it has been shown to help some people
00:04:06"with symptoms of IBS."
00:04:08Turns out it performed just as well as the leading medication.
00:04:10- No fucking way.
00:04:12- Not only that, wait, the story gets better.
00:04:14People called up Dr. Kaptchuk afterwards and said,
00:04:17"Hey, that placebo pill was amazing for my symptoms.
00:04:20"Can I get some more of those?"
00:04:22- Well, you gotta make sure it's the right brand
00:04:25of placebo pill because if you change the strain,
00:04:28the gut microbiome won't respond.
00:04:30Dude, it is wild.
00:04:32I remember reading a study about branded ibuprofen,
00:04:37branded painkillers being more effective
00:04:40than own-label painkillers.
00:04:41You don't wanna get the CVS own brand.
00:04:43You wanna get the Nurofen version of it for the same reason,
00:04:46that despite the fact that people know
00:04:48it's the precise same structure that's inside of there
00:04:51at the same dose, just the expectation effect
00:04:56that David Robson wrote about,
00:04:57which I'm sure you're familiar with.
00:04:58It's just across everything.
00:05:01- It's crazy.
00:05:01- That is wild.
00:05:04- Yeah, yeah, and it just goes on and on.
00:05:06And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
00:05:08So not only does it affect our bodies
00:05:11and, in fact, how our biology becomes our beliefs
00:05:14in many ways, it's much more nuanced
00:05:17and much more practical than I used to think.
00:05:19I think a lot of people think that there's some kind
00:05:20of like magic to placebos and placebos can heal you.
00:05:23It turns out that's not really true,
00:05:25that there's a difference between sickness and illness.
00:05:29Sickness is in the body, some kind of physical malady,
00:05:32some kind of physical disease,
00:05:33some kind of something that's not working properly
00:05:35in the body.
00:05:36Illness is the psychological perception of symptoms.
00:05:40So placebos don't work at all when it comes to sickness.
00:05:45They're really effective when it comes to illness.
00:05:47And so you can actually practically use many of these tools,
00:05:50both things that look like pharmaceuticals,
00:05:52like pills and injections and treatments and potions,
00:05:55but also rituals, right?
00:05:57So for the first time in my life, I started to pray.
00:05:59I didn't pray since I was a little kid.
00:06:01And now I started adopting prayer in my life
00:06:04because it's incredible.
00:06:06Like if you look at the research, people who pray,
00:06:09they live longer, they are a lot healthier,
00:06:13they are happier, they have lower incidents
00:06:15of depression and anxiety.
00:06:18Now, what's really crazy is that turns out the studies show
00:06:21that you actually get a lot of the same benefits from prayer,
00:06:26even without faith.
00:06:27And that really blew my mind.
00:06:28And I think this is exactly what I'm trying to address here.
00:06:30This crisis, this epidemic that I think we're seeing
00:06:33of loneliness, disconnection, anxiety,
00:06:35all kinds of maladies, I think are coming from the fact
00:06:39that we've become more secular.
00:06:41In the States, 30% of Americans today identify as none.
00:06:45It's the largest religious group in America.
00:06:47N-O-N-E, not N-U-N, not the Catholic none,
00:06:50but N-O-N-E, people who don't affiliate with any religion.
00:06:53And in fact, many of them call themselves spiritual,
00:06:57but not religious.
00:06:58You've probably heard this a ton, right?
00:06:59You're in Austin, you have a lot of people around you
00:07:01who call themselves spiritual, not religious.
00:07:03Well, those people are the worst off.
00:07:05They have the highest incidences
00:07:07of anxiety and depression disorder than other groups.
00:07:11So you're more likely to suffer
00:07:12if you say you're spiritual and not religious
00:07:14than if you just say you're a freethinker, agnostic,
00:07:16or of course, if you are religious.
00:07:17So it turns out you can get a lot of the same benefits,
00:07:21and this is what I discovered,
00:07:23by using prayer with ritual almost as a placebo.
00:07:27Maybe you stop questioning even as I did
00:07:29whether I need it to be an absolute fact
00:07:31that everything I'm saying is actually true
00:07:34the way that the religious leader would say it,
00:07:36and rather just go about the actual rituals
00:07:38that have been around for thousands and thousands of years.
00:07:40And so that's part of what I discovered
00:07:41on this journey as well.
00:07:43What do you think is the reason for spiritual
00:07:45but not religious having the worst outcomes?
00:07:47I think that it loses the fundamental tenets
00:07:53of what religion gives us.
00:07:54So the story that I went on,
00:07:58the journey that I went on, I should say,
00:08:00was that I went to, well, let me back up a second.
00:08:04Let me tell you about the study that inspired this.
00:08:06So I read this study that showed that they took,
00:08:12they called people in the lab,
00:08:14and they had a group that was religious and spiritual,
00:08:18people who had a faith practice
00:08:20that believed in some kind of higher power,
00:08:22some kind of supernatural.
00:08:23And they also had a group of people
00:08:25who were not spiritual at all,
00:08:27didn't have any faith tradition.
00:08:29And then they had a control group.
00:08:31And they taught the people
00:08:33who didn't have a faith tradition how to pray.
00:08:36And the control group, they said, "Do whatever you want."
00:08:38They brought those people into a lab later on,
00:08:42and they asked all three groups
00:08:43to put their hand inside very cold water.
00:08:46Now, this is kind of a standard assessment.
00:08:47It's a pain tolerance test.
00:08:48And we see how long you can last
00:08:50in that very, very, very cold, almost freezing water.
00:08:53And they also measure facial grimaces
00:08:55and different expressions.
00:08:56And if you say anything about the pain,
00:08:57so they're measuring your pain tolerance
00:08:58and how long you can finally stay in the water.
00:09:01Well, no surprise, the people who prayed,
00:09:03who had a faith-based prayer practice,
00:09:07they lasted much longer than the control group.
00:09:10But even the people who were taught how to pray,
00:09:13who did not have a faith background,
00:09:17if they could substitute some other word,
00:09:20the universe, the sum of all forces, mother nature,
00:09:23something that was meaningful to them,
00:09:25they also had higher pain tolerance than the control group.
00:09:29And so this fascinated me.
00:09:30And so I went to five religious leaders,
00:09:32and this is gonna sound like the setup of a joke,
00:09:34but this is exactly what happened.
00:09:36I went to a rabbi, an imam, a priest, a monk, and a swami.
00:09:40And I asked them all the same question.
00:09:42How do you pray even if you have doubts about God?
00:09:47And I took away from each of them practices
00:09:51that I think anyone can use,
00:09:52whether you have a belief in the supernatural or not.
00:09:55If you do have a faith in the supernatural, that's fantastic.
00:09:57Turns out that a lot of us, I was missing out
00:10:00because I wanted to have the facts that I'm not gonna pray
00:10:03unless I absolutely believe exactly what the religion says.
00:10:06And now I've been able to release that,
00:10:09that now every time I go by a place of worship,
00:10:11whether it's a church or a mosque or a synagogue,
00:10:13if they'll have me inside, I go in and pray.
00:10:16And it doesn't cost me anything.
00:10:18And it helps me refocus.
00:10:20It helps me become grateful.
00:10:23And it sometimes engages me in a community.
00:10:26All these practices that religion teaches
00:10:29have kind of escaped us.
00:10:32By the way, and interesting if not,
00:10:33you asked why is spiritual but not religious?
00:10:35Why does that have these negative outcomes?
00:10:38Not every country is the same when it comes to that regard.
00:10:40In fact, in Japan, I just got back from Japan
00:10:42a few weeks ago.
00:10:42In Japan, it's the exact opposite.
00:10:45They are religious but not spiritual.
00:10:48So the Japanese, they absolutely will go to the Shinto shrines.
00:10:54They'll go to the Buddhist temples.
00:10:55They do all the rituals, but when you actually ask them,
00:10:57do you actually, do you really have faith
00:10:59in the supernatural animism?
00:11:01Not really, not so much, but they do the ritual.
00:11:05And they have, they gain all these psychological benefits
00:11:08that come from it.
00:11:09- That's so interesting.
00:11:12That is so cool.
00:11:13I can imagine a lot of people thinking,
00:11:16oh, this is perilously close to wishful thinking.
00:11:20You're asking people to delusion themselves
00:11:24into see it, believe it, wish it, achieve it,
00:11:28but don't actually have to do anything about it.
00:11:31Square the circle of being a pretty grounded,
00:11:36agentic guy who wants to make things happen
00:11:39and realizes that you need to row the boat
00:11:41with not wanting to rely too much on delusion and whimsy.
00:11:46- Totally, so for, okay, let's address those separately.
00:11:50So first of all, you're already gaslighting yourself.
00:11:55You're already delusional.
00:11:57In fact, none of us actually see reality as it is.
00:12:01How do we know this?
00:12:03The brain is absorbing about 11 million bits
00:12:06of information per second.
00:12:07So right now, listening to my voice,
00:12:09your brain is actually taking in
00:12:1111 million bits of information,
00:12:12the sound of my voice in your ears,
00:12:14the light entering your eyeballs,
00:12:17the temperature of the room.
00:12:19Your brain is actually absorbing all this,
00:12:2011 million bits of information.
00:12:22But conscious processing only has the capacity
00:12:26for about 50 bits of information.
00:12:28So 11 million bits of information,
00:12:30to put that in perspective,
00:12:31that's like reading War and Peace twice every second.
00:12:35Okay, a tremendous amount of information.
00:12:3750 bits of information is about one sentence
00:12:39of information per second.
00:12:41So 50 bits versus 11 bits.
00:12:42That's .000045% of the information you're receiving
00:12:46are you able to absorb.
00:12:48The brain just can't deal with it.
00:12:49So what does it do?
00:12:51It has to use what we call predictive processing.
00:12:53It doesn't see reality as it is.
00:12:55It sees reality as it expects it to,
00:12:59Chris?
00:13:01- Appear.
00:13:02- There you go, right?
00:13:03As you expect it to appear,
00:13:04as you expect it to be.
00:13:05How did you know that that was the next word?
00:13:07Because your brain predicted it
00:13:09based on what we call priors,
00:13:11based on your prior experience,
00:13:12your prior beliefs.
00:13:14And so based on those factors,
00:13:16you are seeing reality not as it actually is in a second,
00:13:19you're seeing it based on a prediction.
00:13:20So you're already living in a simulation.
00:13:22It's not the matrix that we all live in,
00:13:24not like the movie,
00:13:25we all live in our own simulation
00:13:27inside our own heads at every single second.
00:13:30Now what we don't realize
00:13:32is that our beliefs are already deluding us
00:13:35through what we call limiting beliefs.
00:13:37These are beliefs that sap your motivation
00:13:39and delude you into doing things
00:13:41that oftentimes you later regret, right?
00:13:43I'm not a morning person.
00:13:45I'm too old.
00:13:46I'm too young.
00:13:47I'm too fat.
00:13:47I'm too thin.
00:13:48It's too late.
00:13:49I have no time, right?
00:13:50Like all these limiting beliefs
00:13:51that we tell ourselves all the time,
00:13:52they're already a delusion.
00:13:53You're already gaslighting yourself.
00:13:54What I'm advocating for, what I've discovered
00:13:58is that you can actually choose your beliefs
00:14:01because beliefs are not facts, okay?
00:14:03Facts are something different.
00:14:05Facts are defined as objective truths, okay?
00:14:09It's something that's true whether you believe it or not.
00:14:11The world is more like a sphere than it is flat.
00:14:14Sorry, Flat Earth, there's a fact.
00:14:16On the opposite end of the spectrum is what we call faith.
00:14:20Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence, okay?
00:14:24What happens in the afterlife, God rewards the righteous.
00:14:28These are matters of faith.
00:14:29They do not require evidence.
00:14:31- Do you see these as kind of two opposite ends
00:14:33of the same spectrum?
00:14:34- Yeah, yeah.
00:14:35Because of the evidence-- - One that requires
00:14:37100% evidence and one that doesn't require
00:14:38any evidence at all.
00:14:39Okay, cool.
00:14:40- That's right.
00:14:41Now in the middle is a belief.
00:14:43A belief is a conviction
00:14:45that is open to revision based on evidence.
00:14:48So you can choose your beliefs.
00:14:52And these beliefs shape what you see,
00:14:53what you feel and what you do.
00:14:55And we carry them around as if they are ultimate truths,
00:14:59as if they are facts.
00:15:00I think the vast majority of our personal problems,
00:15:02our interpersonal problems, our political problems
00:15:05come from the fact that we see these truths,
00:15:08these facts as immutable when really most of them are beliefs
00:15:11and those are the beliefs that guide our life.
00:15:13If you think about the decisions we have to make.
00:15:16Should I move to this city?
00:15:17Should I take this job?
00:15:18Should I date this person?
00:15:20All of these questions are based on beliefs,
00:15:23not facts, we don't have perfect certainty
00:15:25about answering these questions.
00:15:26They're based on beliefs.
00:15:28And so if we take a step back,
00:15:30we can observe our beliefs for the first time
00:15:32for most of us because you can't see
00:15:34your own limiting beliefs.
00:15:35It's like your face, right?
00:15:36You can't see your face even though you have it all day long
00:15:40unless you look at the mirror.
00:15:41So unless we sit down and observe
00:15:43what are these limiting beliefs holding me back,
00:15:45you don't even know you have these limiting beliefs.
00:15:47Of course you can see everyone else's limiting beliefs.
00:15:50I bet you every single person you know,
00:15:52well, you could probably say,
00:15:53"Oh, I know that person's limiting beliefs."
00:15:55You just can't see your own limiting beliefs.
00:15:56And so that's why we have to pause,
00:15:58take them out and figure out are they serving me
00:16:01or are they hurting me?
00:16:01So the big aha for me and what's absolutely changed my life
00:16:05over the past years that I've done this research is this,
00:16:09is that I constantly remind myself
00:16:10that beliefs are tools, not truths.
00:16:14Beliefs are tools, not truths.
00:16:15You can use them and once they don't serve you,
00:16:19you can put them down like a carpenter.
00:16:20A carpenter doesn't say, "Oh, a hammer.
00:16:22"Hammer is the one and only true tool."
00:16:24No, a carpenter says, "Sometimes I use a hammer,
00:16:26"sometimes I use a saw, sometimes I use a wrench."
00:16:29And you use the right tool for the job
00:16:30just like you can put down those old beliefs,
00:16:32pick up new ones.
00:16:33- What comes first, evidence or belief?
00:16:36- Evidence, because all of our beliefs
00:16:42are based on past experiences.
00:16:44So if you're defining evidence as past experiences as priors,
00:16:47then yeah, they come from our past experiences in some way.
00:16:50- Okay, in that case, how do we get escape velocity
00:16:55from just this is a pattern from my past.
00:16:59I want a belief that isn't necessarily associated with that.
00:17:02I have struggled to maintain going to the gym in the past.
00:17:07Therefore, I am the sort of person
00:17:09who doesn't really go to the gym consistently.
00:17:12That seems to be a dead end, right?
00:17:15If our beliefs are based on past patterns
00:17:17and that is the evidence and that's,
00:17:20well, until we change the pattern,
00:17:23the belief can't change, is that right?
00:17:25- Well, we can recognize that none of these things
00:17:28are laws of nature.
00:17:30That they're up here, that we are making these up.
00:17:33So when we say I'm the kind of person who,
00:17:35you should have a big red flag.
00:17:37By the way, also with other people,
00:17:39we don't see other people,
00:17:40just like we don't see reality as it really is.
00:17:42We don't see other people as they really are.
00:17:44We see our beliefs about people.
00:17:46And it's interesting, the more you know somebody,
00:17:49the more you see their beliefs, which is why it makes,
00:17:50I don't know if you've had this experience,
00:17:51I had this all the time,
00:17:52where I'll meet somebody and they'll be so nice to me
00:17:54and then their family member will come around
00:17:56and they're absolute schmucks to their family member.
00:17:59They treat them like garbage.
00:18:00I see that all the time
00:18:01because it tends to be the people we know best
00:18:03that we say, oh, she always does that
00:18:05or that's so like him, right?
00:18:07And we start building these effigies of people
00:18:11because of how we see them
00:18:12and of course, how we see ourselves.
00:18:14So how do we, what do we do about this?
00:18:15What's the practical tip here?
00:18:18We look for the areas of our life
00:18:19where we consistently get stuck.
00:18:21The New Year's resolution that has been there for ages.
00:18:26The pain and suffering in our life
00:18:28that we can't seem to escape.
00:18:29And I'm talking even the most extreme types of pain.
00:18:31I did this amazing research on hypnocidation.
00:18:34Like people who literally have
00:18:36scaffolds opening their bodies
00:18:39and they can do it without any anesthesia whatsoever.
00:18:44Chronic pain, right?
00:18:46People who have overcome chronic pain, fibromyalgia,
00:18:49all through the power of beliefs.
00:18:51So where we look for,
00:18:52we look for these reoccurring problems
00:18:56that we seem to get stuck on.
00:18:57And that's where we look for underneath what we find
00:19:01are typically these limiting beliefs.
00:19:02And then we have a process to what do we do next with them?
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00:20:17What's wrong with the traditional view
00:20:19of behavior, motivation and change?
00:20:23Like what, if motivation collapses without belief,
00:20:28why do most productivity systems
00:20:30just ignore that layer entirely?
00:20:33If belief is the root of success,
00:20:34why aren't we taught to build it like we do with discipline?
00:20:38- Because the way we think of motivation,
00:20:41I think is incomplete.
00:20:43That we think of motivation
00:20:45in the traditional economic sense.
00:20:47That it's all about incentives.
00:20:49That it's kind of a straight line.
00:20:50That if I want the benefit of a behavior,
00:20:54then I'll do the behavior to get the benefit, right?
00:20:57Classic, that's how we pay salaries, right?
00:20:59If you do the job description, you get the salary.
00:21:02But there's something clearly missing.
00:21:05Motivation is not a straight line.
00:21:07Motivation is a triangle.
00:21:08You have behavior on one side, here's what I need to do.
00:21:11Then you have the benefit, here's why I want to do it.
00:21:13But the thing missing, holding the whole thing together,
00:21:16the triangle together, is belief.
00:21:18That if I don't believe in the outcome,
00:21:20so for example, if I'm working for a boss
00:21:22who I don't think has my best interest at heart,
00:21:24I don't believe I'm gonna get that promotion.
00:21:26I don't believe I'm gonna get that raise
00:21:27'cause I don't trust my boss.
00:21:28I don't believe in them.
00:21:29I'm not gonna get the benefit
00:21:31and so I lose trust in that benefit.
00:21:33Much more likely, and what I see is quite often the case
00:21:36for everyone, is a lack of belief in myself,
00:21:40to do the behavior, right?
00:21:42That for whatever reason,
00:21:43I don't trust myself to do that thing.
00:21:45And if I lose faith, if I lose the belief in myself,
00:21:48then I also won't do the behavior.
00:21:49So for motivation to persist over the long term,
00:21:53and we know that persistence is this defining trait,
00:21:55persistence and adaptability,
00:21:57two most important traits in achieving your goals,
00:22:00you will quit unless you have not only the belief
00:22:04in what you are doing and the belief in the benefit.
00:22:07That's what holds it all together.
00:22:09And I think that that's a piece that's oftentimes missing.
00:22:12- I guess as well, the set point that we're coming into this
00:22:17with around belief is it doesn't feel quite as in our hands.
00:22:22It doesn't feel like the sort of thing that we can engineer
00:22:25because again, it is further away from the discipline,
00:22:29the productivity system, the five steps to get you there.
00:22:32Can you engineer belief?
00:22:34Is a question that probably a lot of people have,
00:22:35I wish I could believe in it, but they've struggled with it.
00:22:39So yeah, I think we've got a bit of conceptual inertia
00:22:42coming in from where we were previously.
00:22:45- To me, that's the fun part is that you can try
00:22:48on the craziest beliefs and they always sound crazy.
00:22:50Whatever that liberating belief is,
00:22:52it always sounds ridiculous
00:22:54because we love our limiting beliefs.
00:22:56They served us at one point, they're comforting.
00:22:59We don't have to change
00:22:59and we don't want to see any other potential way.
00:23:02- And I'll share what happened to me
00:23:06doing a similar exercise.
00:23:08And this has to do with a very personal relationship
00:23:11with my mom.
00:23:12She had her birthday not that long ago, her 74th,
00:23:16and I wanted to do something nice for her.
00:23:18So I wanted to get her some flowers.
00:23:20Problem was I was in Singapore at the time.
00:23:21She was in central Florida where I grew up.
00:23:24And I wanted to do something special.
00:23:26So I stayed up till one in the morning, calling up florists,
00:23:30making sure that I found the right one that had good reviews,
00:23:32that they could get there in time,
00:23:33that despite the Florida heat, they wouldn't shrivel,
00:23:36that they would get there.
00:23:37I went to sleep, 1 a.m., I patted myself on the shoulder.
00:23:39I said, "Okay, good job, Nir, you did it.
00:23:42"You're a good son."
00:23:43And I called my mom up the next morning and I said,
00:23:48"Hey, happy birthday, did you get the flowers?"
00:23:50And she says, "Yes, thank you very much, I got the flowers,
00:23:53"but you should know that they were half dead
00:23:57"and you really shouldn't order from them anymore."
00:24:00To which I blurted out something that I would have said
00:24:03when I was 13, I said something to the effect of,
00:24:05"Well, that's the last time I ever buy you flowers."
00:24:08And Chris, that went over about as well as you think.
00:24:11It didn't go over very well at all.
00:24:13Now after the call, my wife turned to me and she said,
00:24:17"Hey, do you wanna do a turnaround on this?"
00:24:19And I said, I definitely did not want to do the turnaround,
00:24:23this mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus, touchy feely crap.
00:24:27I didn't need that, I wanted to vent.
00:24:28I wanted to tell her why my mom was being way too judgmental
00:24:32and I wanted her to let me vent.
00:24:34Well, it turns out the research shows
00:24:35that venting does not work,
00:24:37that venting does nothing but cement the vision
00:24:40that you have of people,
00:24:41the beliefs that you have about people,
00:24:42it just makes them more vivid.
00:24:45So venting we know does not work,
00:24:46even though that's kind of the conventional advice,
00:24:47that you have to blow a steam,
00:24:48you have to say how you really feel, don't hold things back.
00:24:51Turns out, it's not so great.
00:24:53I knew that at the time and so I did one of these turnarounds.
00:24:55So I took out these four questions
00:24:57and I started with what is the belief?
00:25:01The belief was very clearly, I wrote it down,
00:25:03my mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
00:25:06Now the first question like we just did with you, is it true?
00:25:08Obviously, Chris, you're on my side here, right?
00:25:10My mother, what mother doesn't thank their son
00:25:13for the flowers, who says that?
00:25:15Clearly she was too judgmental and hard to please.
00:25:17Absolutely, it was true.
00:25:19Second question, is it absolutely true?
00:25:21Meaning is there no other possible explanation
00:25:24other than my belief?
00:25:26Well, if I'm honest, maybe, okay, whatever.
00:25:29Maybe there's another explanation.
00:25:30Okay, I don't want to think about
00:25:31what that explanation could be, but perhaps.
00:25:34Then the third question, who am I when I hold this belief?
00:25:37Well, when I believe my mother is too judgmental
00:25:40and hard to please, I'm kind of a jerk.
00:25:43I'm judgmental, I'm short-tempered, I'm not myself.
00:25:46I'm embarrassed about what I do.
00:25:48And then the fourth question is
00:25:50who would I be without that belief?
00:25:52And if I'm honest, I would be much happier.
00:25:55If there was a magic wand and I could erase
00:25:57that belief from my head, that'd be great.
00:25:59I wouldn't be so judgmental, I'd be me.
00:26:01And then I did this turnaround.
00:26:03So I took that belief, my mother is too judgmental
00:26:06and hard to please, and I turned it around.
00:26:08I asked myself, could the exact opposite be true?
00:26:10As ridiculous as that sounds, I mean, to your question,
00:26:13how do we possibly believe something
00:26:15if we just don't believe something?
00:26:17We're confusing facts with belief.
00:26:19It doesn't matter if it's true.
00:26:20That's how we do it, to answer your question.
00:26:22So is there any possible truth in it?
00:26:26Could there possibly be a way
00:26:28that my mother was not being too judgmental
00:26:31and hard to please?
00:26:32Thought about it for a few minutes and I had to admit,
00:26:35maybe she was just trying to save me some money.
00:26:37Maybe she just didn't want me to be scammed from this florist.
00:26:40So, okay, that could be true.
00:26:42There might be another explanation.
00:26:44Then I did another turnaround.
00:26:45I am too judgmental and hard to please.
00:26:49Could that be true?
00:26:50I am too judgmental and hard to please?
00:26:51Well, kinda did demand in my head in the script
00:26:55of when I called her and said, hey, happy birthday,
00:26:57how are the flowers?
00:26:58I had already scripted out exactly the way
00:27:00I wanted her to respond.
00:27:01I wanted her to say effusive thanks.
00:27:04And when she didn't do that, I lost it.
00:27:07So who was being judgmental and hard to please?
00:27:11Me.
00:27:12And then the third turnaround, I was being,
00:27:16my mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
00:27:18I am being too judgmental and hard to please towards myself.
00:27:21That really what was happening,
00:27:22this actually turned out to be the most true,
00:27:24even though I did not want to accept it at all,
00:27:27was that when the flowers didn't arrive
00:27:28exactly the way I wanted them to,
00:27:30I took that as a statement on my competency,
00:27:34that I had done something wrong, that I messed up.
00:27:37So really I was being too judgmental
00:27:39and hard to please towards myself.
00:27:41Now, when you take out those four beliefs,
00:27:43the original belief in these three new ones,
00:27:45those three new ones sounded absolutely ridiculous.
00:27:47I did not want to accept them at first.
00:27:49But that first belief of my mother's too judgmental
00:27:52and hard to please only left me with one option
00:27:55to get through it.
00:27:56She had to change in order for me to be happy.
00:27:58And like with your example around life having to change,
00:28:03that's pretty tough, right?
00:28:05For her to change was not a possibility.
00:28:08Now at least I had other options.
00:28:09So what did I start doing?
00:28:12I started trying on those beliefs for size, for a week.
00:28:15I'm not, I'm going to take that perspective
00:28:19of that I was being too judgmental and hard to please.
00:28:21And all of a sudden, this weight was lifted.
00:28:24Like I didn't have to believe that anymore.
00:28:26I didn't have to have these standards
00:28:27because I didn't even see I was holding myself
00:28:29to those standards.
00:28:30And all of a sudden I did become more patient.
00:28:31I did become nicer to my mom.
00:28:33I was a better, I was more of the person
00:28:35that I wanted to be.
00:28:36And so the way you change these beliefs
00:28:37is you try on a different belief as an experiment.
00:28:41Just try it out for size.
00:28:42You see what happens.
00:28:43And as ridiculous as it feels at first,
00:28:45when you start building more agency,
00:28:47when you start proving to yourself in small steps
00:28:49that, hey, that could also be true,
00:28:52you can choose at some later point to keep that belief
00:28:55or chuck it for yet a new one.
00:28:56- Why does rumination feel productive
00:29:04when it's actually destructive then?
00:29:07What is it that's happening inside of our minds
00:29:09that causes us to want to do that?
00:29:11- Yeah, it's a few things.
00:29:12So one, rumination feels like problem solving.
00:29:16But it's rumination about the past, right?
00:29:18Rumination comes from what cows do to their cud, right?
00:29:20They ruminate.
00:29:21They chew, chew, chew on a problem endlessly.
00:29:24And oftentimes that can feel productive
00:29:26'cause it feels like we're putting time
00:29:27and attention towards something.
00:29:28But when it becomes rumination,
00:29:30when we were talking about the same thing again and again,
00:29:32we see this all the time
00:29:32when people think about their past, right?
00:29:34Rumination is always about something that has happened
00:29:35in the past.
00:29:36It moves from constructive problem solving
00:29:40into many times an escape from reality.
00:29:43That if I'm constantly thinking of a problem,
00:29:45I don't have to do what's currently in front of me, right?
00:29:47That it's something that almost becomes a pacifier in a way.
00:29:51So a very practical solution, what I've started to do,
00:29:53which also sounds nuts at first,
00:29:56is I've actually started planning time to worry.
00:29:59So now my brain doesn't have to ruminate about the problem.
00:30:03It doesn't have to ruminate just as much about
00:30:04when will I have time to think about and solve this problem?
00:30:08Because now I have time in my calendar for worry.
00:30:10Now here's what happens nine times out of 10.
00:30:12I'll write down, here's what I need to worry about.
00:30:15Very, very important thing.
00:30:16I keep ruminating in my head about this thing
00:30:17that I definitely, definitely need to think about.
00:30:19Very, very important, this thing that I messed up on
00:30:21in the past and I need to think about how do I fix it?
00:30:23And then when that worry time comes, nine times out of 10,
00:30:27what the heck was I worrying about?
00:30:28Why did I keep ruminating on it?
00:30:31I didn't need to.
00:30:32In fact, it's something that got crushed under the weight
00:30:35of some other priority.
00:30:38- Yeah, the addiction to venting and rumination is,
00:30:43it feels so satisfying.
00:30:44It's the same as stretching that torn or strained muscle.
00:30:49You just keep on checking, checking, checking.
00:30:53We'll go back to it, we'll go back to it, we'll go back to it.
00:30:55So I have to imagine that rejection and failure
00:31:00when it comes to belief is somewhat of a challenge, right?
00:31:06How do people rebuild belief after repeated failures?
00:31:10- Yeah.
00:31:12So if you are failing, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:31:18What I want to change in my life,
00:31:25when I hope I can help with others,
00:31:28is to give them more persistence
00:31:30because we know that persistence is the defining factor.
00:31:32You've met lots and lots of successful people in your life.
00:31:34I've interviewed billionaires for this book.
00:31:36I've interviewed people who are broke for this book.
00:31:38And what I discovered was,
00:31:39is that unsuccessful people are not those that fail more.
00:31:44Unsuccessful people are those who fail less.
00:31:47Successful people fail more.
00:31:49It's the billionaire who tried again
00:31:51and again and again and again until they hit a bit.
00:31:54They do more of these experiments.
00:31:55They have more shots on goal.
00:31:57And so that turns out to be a defining trait,
00:31:59that persistence.
00:32:00There's a wonderful study that really blew my mind,
00:32:03this Kurt Richter study back in the 1950s
00:32:05where he took these rats
00:32:07and he put these rats in two cylinders of water
00:32:10and they were filled about halfway full.
00:32:12And he took these rats, he put them in a cylinder of water
00:32:15and he stood there with a timer
00:32:17to see how long the rats would swim for.
00:32:19It turns out, in case you were curious,
00:32:21a wild rat can swim in a cylinder of water
00:32:23for about 15 minutes before it gives up and dies.
00:32:25Very nice.
00:32:27Then he wanted to do another study.
00:32:28He did a follow-up study.
00:32:29By the way, you can't do these kind
00:32:30of unethical studies anymore,
00:32:31but they did it so we can learn from it.
00:32:34Then he took a new batch of wild rats
00:32:37and he put them in the cylinder of water
00:32:39and he watched them swim, swim, swim for about 15 minutes.
00:32:42And right before he knew they would give up
00:32:44and sink under the water, he reached in, pulled out the rat,
00:32:48dried it off, let it catch its breath for a minute
00:32:51and plunk back into the cylinder it went.
00:32:53And now he wanted to see if he did that a few times
00:32:55and he conditioned the wild rat to know
00:32:58that salvation might be possible, what would happen?
00:33:01Could the rat swim for longer?
00:33:03Now you've read the book.
00:33:04I know you know the answer.
00:33:05But when I ask people how much longer did the rat swim for,
00:33:09people say maybe double, okay, maybe triple, right?
00:33:12Maybe four times longer.
00:33:13Wouldn't that be amazing if the rat went from 15 minutes
00:33:14to 60 minutes, an hour?
00:33:16Think about that, right?
00:33:17If you're running a marathon
00:33:18and now you have four times the endurance,
00:33:20if you're working on that hard task,
00:33:21if you're, whatever that challenge is,
00:33:23you can sustain four times longer, that'd blow your mind.
00:33:26That'd be amazing.
00:33:26What kind of crazy intervention would that be?
00:33:28Well, the rats didn't swim for 60 minutes.
00:33:31They ended up swimming for 60 hours.
00:33:34They swam for 240 times longer.
00:33:38And that ability was in them the whole time
00:33:41because their bodies didn't change.
00:33:43The experiment didn't change.
00:33:45What changed was, we think,
00:33:46we can't ask these rats what they believed.
00:33:48We think that something must have changed in their minds.
00:33:50The fact that they saw that hope and salvation were possible
00:33:53kept them persisting, persisting, persisting.
00:33:56And so it all of a sudden became unlocked
00:33:58because of a belief.
00:33:59They believed that salvation maybe might be possible.
00:34:02And so the goal here is to realize
00:34:04the practical application of this
00:34:06is not to quit at the 15-minute mark.
00:34:09That for the vast majority of us, myself included,
00:34:11when it gets uncomfortable, when it gets difficult,
00:34:14when it gets painful, that's our limit.
00:34:16But your limit is so much further than you actually think.
00:34:20So the most important thing
00:34:21is to quit when it's the right time.
00:34:24Quitting is not wrong.
00:34:25There's nothing wrong with quitting.
00:34:27Quitting too soon is a destruction of human capital.
00:34:30That's what we have to prevent.
00:34:32Quitting too soon, I've quit many things.
00:34:34I've quit relationships, I've quit businesses,
00:34:35I've quit all kinds of things.
00:34:36It's not that quitting is wrong.
00:34:38It's quitting when it's too soon that's the problem.
00:34:40So in one of those criteria for when not to quit
00:34:44is when it hurts, right?
00:34:46That pain is just a signal.
00:34:48Remember we talked about 11 million bits
00:34:49versus 50 bits of information.
00:34:52Those pain signals, that's just information.
00:34:54That's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:34:55So if we can disconnect the pain from the suffering,
00:34:57the interpretation of that pain,
00:34:59and only quit when it's time.
00:35:01So for example, one of the criteria
00:35:03for when is it a good time to quit
00:35:05is not when you're failing.
00:35:06That is a bad reason to quit a task.
00:35:08The failing is not the right reason.
00:35:10It's when you stop learning.
00:35:13And if the failures are teaching you something, keep going.
00:35:16That's not necessarily, there's two other criteria
00:35:18about when is the proper time to quit.
00:35:20But failure itself, in and of itself,
00:35:21is not necessarily the right criteria for when to quit.
00:35:24- What are the other criteria?
00:35:26- The other two criteria, number one,
00:35:28is you have to meet a checkpoint.
00:35:30So most people don't set checkpoints, they set deadlines.
00:35:35And that's not what we're talking about.
00:35:36We're not talking about a deadline.
00:35:37We're talking about, a checkpoint is when I say,
00:35:38I will endure this suffering for a fixed period of time.
00:35:42Now why do we do that?
00:35:43Because if we don't do that,
00:35:44as soon as it gets uncomfortable,
00:35:46we're going to interpret the pain as suffering
00:35:48and we're gonna wanna quit.
00:35:50Instead when we say, I'm gonna try this perspective, right?
00:35:53I'm gonna try this crazy view of my mom,
00:35:55like I was describing earlier,
00:35:56or this crazy view of my life,
00:35:58that life is not for ticking off tasks.
00:36:00Okay, doesn't sound right.
00:36:02I don't agree.
00:36:02Maybe it's not true.
00:36:03But I'm gonna try it for one week, 30 days, whatever.
00:36:06You make up the number.
00:36:07And I'm not gonna stop until I hit that checkpoint.
00:36:10Then at that checkpoint, I can say,
00:36:12okay, let me take a step back.
00:36:15Would I continue this experiment past that checkpoint
00:36:19if I were to start today?
00:36:20But don't quit until the checkpoint, right?
00:36:22Whatever that hard task might be.
00:36:2430 days of exercise, 30 days of posting YouTube videos,
00:36:2630 days of writing your book, whatever it is,
00:36:28make sure you have that checked.
00:36:29That's criteria number one.
00:36:31Criteria number two is,
00:36:32are you still learning through failure?
00:36:33We talked about that earlier.
00:36:34And then the third and the most important criteria
00:36:37is does persistence make a difference?
00:36:40Many things in life, persistence does not make a difference.
00:36:44If you're in a crappy work culture and it's awful
00:36:48and the people are sucking out your energy
00:36:51and on Sunday evening you are dreading
00:36:54waking up on Monday morning
00:36:55because you know you have to go to work,
00:36:57persistence ain't gonna help.
00:36:58Those people are not gonna suddenly leave
00:37:00just because you stuck around longer, right?
00:37:01You're gonna die by the time those people leave.
00:37:03So persistence is not gonna make a difference.
00:37:04However, when it comes to fitness, for example,
00:37:07you're a jack guy, you know this,
00:37:09you hit plateaus and then if you persist,
00:37:12hey, you'll bust out of that plateau.
00:37:13You'll make progress eventually, right?
00:37:15So there are certain things in life
00:37:17where persistence really does make a difference
00:37:19even if you're not seeing progress.
00:37:20But if you meet those three criteria, that's fine.
00:37:23The most important thing
00:37:24is that you're not quitting too soon.
00:37:25You're not quitting at the 15 minute mark like those rats
00:37:28even when you have 60 hours of potential.
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00:38:28It feels to me like there's a relationship between luck
00:38:31and the rejection thing here
00:38:33that people are always trying to engineer it
00:38:35and some people in life seem to be a little bit more lucky.
00:38:38What did you find out about luck?
00:38:40- Yeah, that luck is not chance.
00:38:43That luck in fact can absolutely be engineered.
00:38:47The most, let's be honest here,
00:38:49the most lucky thing is your birth.
00:38:53That if you are lucky enough to be born
00:38:55in an industrialized democratic country,
00:38:57you won the genetic lottery, as Warren Buffett used to say.
00:39:02Other than that, after you're born,
00:39:05it turns out there's no such thing
00:39:06as particularly lucky people.
00:39:07We see successful people, we say, oh, they just got lucky.
00:39:10And of course, lucky things happen to all kinds of people.
00:39:13But it turns out what's much more important
00:39:15is how they manufacture their luck.
00:39:17We know that entrepreneurs,
00:39:20they have this phenomenon called entrepreneurial alertness
00:39:23where we know that successful entrepreneurs
00:39:25literally see the world differently.
00:39:27They metaphorically see $100 bills all over the floor.
00:39:29And there's actually a wonderful study that showed this.
00:39:33They took two groups of people.
00:39:35One was self-identified pessimists
00:39:37and one were self-identified optimists.
00:39:40And in this study, they asked people to look at a newspaper.
00:39:45And this newspaper was specially designed
00:39:47for this experiment.
00:39:48And the goal of the experiment, they asked them,
00:39:50we want you to count for us
00:39:53how many photos there are in this newspaper.
00:39:56Okay, how many photos do you see in this newspaper?
00:39:58Count as quickly as you can and then tell the proctor
00:40:02and you'll get a monetary prize.
00:40:04Now, people who are self-identified optimists
00:40:07took about 11 seconds to finish this experiment.
00:40:10People who were self-identified pessimists
00:40:12took two and a half minutes.
00:40:14Why, why the difference?
00:40:16Right, that's a huge advantage.
00:40:17What happened?
00:40:18Turns out that on page two of this newspaper
00:40:22was a photo that said there are 48 photos in this newspaper.
00:40:27That's all it said.
00:40:29Then halfway through the paper,
00:40:32it said there are 48 photos in this paper.
00:40:35Collect your prize, okay?
00:40:38Optimistic people saw that.
00:40:40They saw this thing staring in the face.
00:40:42They got up, they said there's 48 pictures in the newspaper
00:40:45and they collected their prize.
00:40:46They walked off in 11 seconds on average.
00:40:48The pessimistic people sat there and said one, two, three,
00:40:51four, they didn't even see the opportunity
00:40:53staring them in the face.
00:40:54They were completely oblivious to it.
00:40:56And so this is a wonderful example
00:40:58of how we don't see what we believe.
00:41:00That's kind of what we think is common knowledge.
00:41:02We see what we believe, we have to see something
00:41:05in order to believe it.
00:41:06Turns out the exact opposite is just as true.
00:41:08That in order to see something, we have to believe it.
00:41:11That's wild.
00:41:14That is so crazy.
00:41:16What--
00:41:17Tube of the iceberg.
00:41:18There's so many of these.
00:41:19What are the ways does this show up in people's lives?
00:41:22All over the place.
00:41:24I mean, we know that people who are on a diet
00:41:26physically see food as larger.
00:41:29They see that people who are afraid of heights
00:41:32see distances as farther away, right?
00:41:35So back to this keyhole of attention,
00:41:38that when we are forced to see reality
00:41:40through this itsy bitsy keyhole of reality,
00:41:44we can't help it, right?
00:41:45That cough religion I talked about earlier, it's crazy.
00:41:47I'll show it to people and they will absolutely swear
00:41:49there is nothing here but squares, right?
00:41:52Whereas you show it to other people
00:41:54and they'll say there's nothing there but circles.
00:41:55And it's completely determined.
00:41:56We think, we don't exactly know why this is happening.
00:41:58We think it's because of where you grow up.
00:42:00That people who grow up in urban environments
00:42:02see sharp edges, right?
00:42:04Buildings and streets, they see sharp edges.
00:42:05These are not natural.
00:42:06The people who grow up, for example,
00:42:08where they did this study that they showed
00:42:09the cough religion to people in sub-Saharan Africa
00:42:13and they see circles.
00:42:14Because that's what they have been conditioned to see.
00:42:16They see organic shapes.
00:42:17They don't see hard edges.
00:42:18And so it absolutely affects time and time again
00:42:21what you are able to see based on your past experience.
00:42:23And of course, we make up problems for many of us
00:42:28where they don't exist, right?
00:42:29That it's no coincidence that this is,
00:42:32I mean, people are gonna think I'm crazy.
00:42:34And when I say this,
00:42:35know that the crazier you think an alternative belief is,
00:42:37the more you should actually explore it, right?
00:42:39Because that's your brain with your belief immune system
00:42:43is trying to keep out foreign antibodies.
00:42:45It's trying to keep out these beliefs you don't like.
00:42:48The fact is the world is getting better.
00:42:50And it's in fact better than it's ever been, right?
00:42:52But the average person, if you say,
00:42:54is this the best time in history?
00:42:55The average person will say, no, it's terrible.
00:42:57We have wars, we have crime, we have this, we have that.
00:42:59Things are terrible and they're getting worse.
00:43:02Well, that's not true.
00:43:03And if you don't believe me,
00:43:04read this wonderful book by Hans Rosling, "Factfulness,"
00:43:07where he interviewed university professors
00:43:09and he gave them an exam about the state of the world,
00:43:12the state of all the things we care about,
00:43:13the state of education, the state of the environment,
00:43:15the state of female empowerment, the state of democracy.
00:43:18These professors on this exam did worse
00:43:22than if monkeys would have taken this test.
00:43:25They did worse than chance on a realistic portrayal
00:43:29of how the world is
00:43:30because of this negativity bias that we all have,
00:43:34because of these existing beliefs
00:43:35that we seek to confirm time and time again.
00:43:36So if you are looking for negativity,
00:43:38if you believe that the world is getting worse,
00:43:41you're gonna see all the ways the world is getting worse.
00:43:42You're gonna tune into the media
00:43:43that does nothing but reinforce that fact
00:43:45because if it bleeds, it leads.
00:43:47You're gonna see all the crime stories, the hatred,
00:43:48the animosity, the wars,
00:43:50because that's what you're turning into.
00:43:52That's what you're paying attention to.
00:43:54I'll give you one more quick study that I love,
00:43:56is the Dartmouth scar study,
00:43:59where they took women and they said,
00:44:02we're gonna do a study on how people treat those
00:44:05with facial disfigurements.
00:44:07We wanna see how people are treated differently,
00:44:09how they are discriminated against.
00:44:11So we're gonna put this fake scar on your face
00:44:13and we're gonna put you in a room with somebody else,
00:44:15the person we're doing the study on,
00:44:18and we want you to report how you're treated
00:44:20with this facial scar.
00:44:21And they made this very realistic,
00:44:23one of the ones that you would see in a horror film,
00:44:25this huge gash on their face.
00:44:27And they said, okay, now you're gonna walk into this room
00:44:29and we want you to take careful notes
00:44:30on how people treated you when you had a conversation.
00:44:33Except, wait, wait, wait,
00:44:34come back here for a quick second.
00:44:35Before you go into the room, let me just do a quick touch-up.
00:44:38And what these women didn't know in the study
00:44:40is that they completely removed the scar.
00:44:42Now, the women didn't know that.
00:44:43They saw the scar in the mirror,
00:44:44but then when they did the touch-up and removed the scar,
00:44:46they didn't know that the scar didn't exist.
00:44:49It wasn't there.
00:44:50And yet, these women in the study reported
00:44:53that they were stared at, that they were discriminated against,
00:44:56that the people they were talking to seemed disgusted
00:44:59and averted their eyes many times,
00:45:00and they felt very uncomfortable,
00:45:02all for a scar that didn't even exist.
00:45:05It wasn't even there.
00:45:06Because they expected a response,
00:45:08and when you expect something to occur, you will see it.
00:45:11- It's like living in a simulation.
00:45:14It's like we create a simulation of the world
00:45:17and kind of disregard what the actual world is showing to us.
00:45:23- That's right.
00:45:24Now, we don't have to, right?
00:45:24So that through this consistent practice
00:45:26of making ourselves see the world differently,
00:45:30we hopefully can see truth.
00:45:31I mean, how, isn't it crazy how,
00:45:33at least in many cultures, not all cultures,
00:45:37disagreement is seen as rude, right?
00:45:40That like when someone disagrees with you,
00:45:42they're kind of, you don't like that person, right?
00:45:44When someone challenges your feelings, ugh,
00:45:46that creates a little icky feeling.
00:45:47Or if someone does change their perspective,
00:45:50they're called a flip-flopper.
00:45:53Is that not the stupidest thing ever?
00:45:54I mean, now, that's become my love language.
00:45:57Like, if you can change my mind about something,
00:45:59can you think of a better gift?
00:46:00Like, I was lying to myself about reality,
00:46:04about myself, about my relationship,
00:46:05and now you've helped me see the world more clearly?
00:46:08Can you, like, what better gift could there possibly be?
00:46:11- Yeah, it's a strange one that was so attached
00:46:15to our points of view that losing them or letting go of them
00:46:19is kind of tantamount to destruction, at least to the ego.
00:46:23And I'm thinking about beliefs that people have now,
00:46:28which might be useful, or that create success or whatever,
00:46:33but in the future, quietly limit you later on.
00:46:38Beliefs that people hold now that previously were effective
00:46:40or helpful in some sort of a way,
00:46:43but now are holding us back.
00:46:45That kind of blind spot with regards to belief
00:46:49and the tool, where it was then, where we are now,
00:46:53how do you come to think about updating beliefs over time
00:46:56in that sort of a way?
00:46:58- Yeah, where do we begin?
00:46:59I think one of the challenges that I think
00:47:02is becoming more and more prevalent
00:47:04is that we have these cultural nocebos.
00:47:07So, placebos come from the Latin "I will heal."
00:47:11Nocebos come from "I will hurt."
00:47:13And it turns out these nocebo effects are contagious,
00:47:18that when we tell people that they might be suffering
00:47:21from some kind of malady, it spreads.
00:47:24I'll give you a great example.
00:47:26There was this case in, I think it was Portugal,
00:47:28if I'm not mistaken, where on one particular night,
00:47:31there was this epidemic.
00:47:33The hospital rooms were filling up with young girls
00:47:37with intense intestinal discomfort.
00:47:39They were filling up the ERs.
00:47:42And people thought it was some kind of virus.
00:47:43People thought there was something in the water.
00:47:45Like, what had happened?
00:47:46It was really weird that it only affected
00:47:48girls of a certain age, and nobody knew what it was.
00:47:50Turns out, there was a very popular TV show.
00:47:53I think it was called "Strawberries and Cream."
00:47:55And on that show, the main character, the protagonist,
00:47:59had some kind of similar intestinal malady
00:48:03where she was very sick, and that actually caught on
00:48:06and created this kind of mass nocebo effect.
00:48:09And this goes, we see this repeated again and again.
00:48:12Every few years, somewhere in the world,
00:48:14there'll be some kind of outbreak
00:48:16of some kind of psychosomatic disorder.
00:48:19In the literature, one case that really blew my mind,
00:48:21there was this guy, they call him Mr. A, he was anonymized.
00:48:25And Mr. A had a very difficult breakup with his girlfriend.
00:48:30And he decides that he wants to end his life.
00:48:34So he takes a bottle of pills, opens it up.
00:48:37He takes the entire bottle of pills, swallows everything.
00:48:39And a few minutes later, he changes his mind.
00:48:41He decides he wants to live.
00:48:42So he rushes over to his next-door neighbor.
00:48:44He tells him he took all his pills.
00:48:47Neighbor rushes him to the ER.
00:48:49Mr. A barges through the emergency room,
00:48:52crashes on the floor.
00:48:54He's almost unconscious, and he says,
00:48:55"I took all my pills, I took all my pills, help me."
00:48:58They rush him into the operating room.
00:49:00His blood pressure is dangerously low.
00:49:03His heart rate is plummeting.
00:49:05And they're trying to figure out what did he overdose on?
00:49:07Well, they look at the jar of pills,
00:49:10and all there is on the jar of pills is a number to call.
00:49:13It turns out that Mr. A had been part
00:49:15of a clinical trial for depression.
00:49:17And he took all these pills that he was given in the study.
00:49:21They called the number, and they say,
00:49:23"What is this drug?
00:49:24"What did he just overdose on
00:49:26"so that we can try and resuscitate him?"
00:49:27And again, all the physiological symptoms of overdose,
00:49:30the heart rate, the plunging, blood pressure,
00:49:34all the things that you would expect
00:49:35with an overdose are happening to Mr. A.
00:49:38On the other line, the doctor says,
00:49:40this person took placebos.
00:49:42He did not get the active ingredient.
00:49:45They tell Mr. A this, that he took nothing but placebos.
00:49:48Within 15 minutes, Chris, Mr. A is completely revived.
00:49:53His heart rate is back to normal.
00:49:55His blood pressure is back to normal.
00:49:57And he's fine.
00:49:58He's ready to walk out of the ER.
00:50:00Now, if we can have these incredible physiological effects
00:50:05solely based on our beliefs,
00:50:07solely based on our expectations
00:50:08of what we think will happen in this crazy simulation
00:50:11that's running in our heads,
00:50:12if that can be done to this extent,
00:50:14what does that mean for all the other nocebos in our life?
00:50:19What happens when we assign ourselves all kinds of labels
00:50:22that we keep tossing around?
00:50:23If you open up social media,
00:50:24people are prescribing the hell out of each other
00:50:27with all kinds of maladies
00:50:29that let alone have no actual psychological basis,
00:50:33imposter syndrome.
00:50:33Imposter syndrome is not a thing.
00:50:36It's not in the DSM.
00:50:37There's nothing that makes the imposter syndrome.
00:50:39You can't get diagnosed for imposter syndrome,
00:50:41but it sounds so official, people think it's a diagnosis.
00:50:44Well, when you think you have imposter syndrome,
00:50:47guess what?
00:50:48Now you have imposter syndrome.
00:50:49You've manufactured it.
00:50:50Whether it's true or not, that's not what I'm arguing about.
00:50:53What I'm arguing about is does it serve you?
00:50:56I'm not a morning person.
00:50:58I'm having a senior moment.
00:51:00I'm no good at public speaking.
00:51:03I'm whatever.
00:51:05When we create this identity, that's the problem,
00:51:08out of a label, that label becomes our limit.
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00:52:24That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.
00:52:30The example that you used with the mouse,
00:52:32it believed that it was going to be saved.
00:52:36I have to assume that in order to work out
00:52:38how long a mouse swims for before it drowns,
00:52:39you have to let it drown.
00:52:40So in a lot of these studies, it actually didn't get saved.
00:52:43So it had an erroneous belief,
00:52:44and that erroneous belief--
00:52:45- But it was a new group of rats.
00:52:47- Yes, it lifted the ceiling on when the rat
00:52:51was going to be able to swim for.
00:52:54- Right.
00:52:55- So you can spiral belief up toward a version of you
00:52:59that you want, one that broadly gets better outcomes in life,
00:53:03but you can also spiral it down,
00:53:05which is I took sugar pills
00:53:07and now I think I'm having a heart attack
00:53:09and my brain's going to explode.
00:53:12- Right.
00:53:13- In both situations, the interpretation and the belief
00:53:18is causing an effect within the person.
00:53:21- Right.
00:53:22- And both are very powerful.
00:53:24I think when it comes to something like imposter syndrome
00:53:27or concerns about public speaking, sexual performance, right?
00:53:32Some guy that gets real nervous before he gets into,
00:53:35I think that's like psychosomatic mental impact
00:53:40on guys struggling to get it up
00:53:42is a vicious spiral that happens to dudes
00:53:45and then they can't get out of it.
00:53:46They're worried about it and this thing's going to happen.
00:53:48It goes all the way down.
00:53:49- Yeah.
00:53:50Insomnia, depression, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, IBS.
00:53:54Many of these things are highly responsive to both nocebo
00:53:57and placebo effects, but sorry, I interrupted you, continue.
00:54:00- Just someone is on the spiral going in the wrong direction.
00:54:03How do they intervene?
00:54:06How do they intervene and reverse that direction
00:54:09to go back in the other?
00:54:10Because one of the things that I imagine a lot of people think
00:54:13is, oh God, well, yeah, there's some contributing elements
00:54:18that are grounded in reality,
00:54:19but much of this is filtered through my perception,
00:54:22my expectations, my own simulation, my beliefs.
00:54:25What a piece of shit am I that I can't fix?
00:54:29It's all on me.
00:54:31I'm causing this problem.
00:54:32This means I'm even worse than I thought I was.
00:54:35So I think getting practical about, okay,
00:54:38someone feels that they have one of these beliefs
00:54:40and it is spiraling in the wrong direction.
00:54:42It's their erectile dysfunction or inability
00:54:44to wake up on a morning or it's their mood
00:54:46or it's their whatever.
00:54:48- Yeah.
00:54:50- Take me through the steps that someone goes through
00:54:52to halt the downward spiral
00:54:54and turn it into one that works for them.
00:54:56- Absolutely.
00:54:57So this comes a lot from the research around chronic pain
00:55:00and the medical community is really in the middle
00:55:04of doing a 180 on how to approach pain.
00:55:07And there's this new technique that's been quite validated
00:55:11called pain reprocessing therapy.
00:55:13And the reason I like to talk about this extreme version
00:55:16is because if we can do it in the most extreme versions,
00:55:19when people are suffering through chronic pain,
00:55:21like the kind of debilitating pain
00:55:23that comes from these type of conditions,
00:55:26then we can also do it for more minor maladies
00:55:29like erectile dysfunction or insomnia or anxiety, right?
00:55:32So that's why I like to talk about those more extreme cases.
00:55:35But the way pain reprocessing therapy works
00:55:39starts by understanding
00:55:42that pain is not the same as suffering, okay?
00:55:45Pain is always real.
00:55:47Even though all pain is in the brain,
00:55:49all pain is in the brain.
00:55:50Where else could pain live?
00:55:51Pain is not in your arm, it's not in your back.
00:55:53All pain receptors lead to an interpretation in your brain.
00:55:58But pain is nothing more than signal.
00:56:01Pain does not necessarily mean that anything is broken
00:56:04because there's a difference between a sickness
00:56:06and an illness.
00:56:07Sickness is in the body, illness is in the mind.
00:56:10So for many conditions, there is something broken,
00:56:13some kind of malady that has to do with sickness,
00:56:17something in the body.
00:56:18You can be sick without being ill
00:56:19and you can also be ill without being sick.
00:56:20How can that happen?
00:56:21If you have cancer, you know we all have tiny cancer cells,
00:56:24but let's say you have some kind of malignant tumor
00:56:25but you haven't, you don't know you have it yet.
00:56:28God forbid that this should happen to you, but it does.
00:56:31You can be sick but not realize that you have any symptoms
00:56:34so you're not ill.
00:56:35Conversely, and what is very, very common,
00:56:37in fact it accounts for about 80% of our healthcare expenses,
00:56:40is the symptoms, the illness which is in the mind, okay?
00:56:45The perception of those symptoms.
00:56:46And many times, for example in the case of chronic pain,
00:56:49which is defined as pain that persists
00:56:50for more than six months with no known physical causes.
00:56:54So the most important thing is to eliminate
00:56:56those possible physical causes.
00:56:57But if you continue to have that--
00:56:58- Oh, okay, so you wouldn't have,
00:57:00or you wouldn't be diagnosed with chronic pain
00:57:02if you had a big bit of wood sticking out of your leg.
00:57:05- Exactly, exactly.
00:57:06We know, okay, that's the cause.
00:57:08Exactly.
00:57:09Although, as a little tangent here,
00:57:12I mean there's cases, where did placebo science
00:57:14first come from?
00:57:15It came from after World War I,
00:57:17when there was reported cases of soldiers
00:57:20dragging their buddy on the battlefield to the medic
00:57:23and saying, "Medic, medic, you need to help my friend.
00:57:24"My friend just got shot.
00:57:26"Help my friend, help my friend."
00:57:27And the medic turns to this guy pulling his buddy
00:57:29and says, "Soldier, you're missing an arm."
00:57:32And the soldier was completely unaware
00:57:34that half their arm had been blown off
00:57:37because of the power of attention.
00:57:39They'd been so focused on their buddy
00:57:40that they didn't pay attention.
00:57:41They turned off that information
00:57:43that was coming to their brain from their conscious mind.
00:57:45Because again, 11 million bits versus 50 bits.
00:57:48So back to this question around chronic pain
00:57:52and how that teaches us, what that teaches all of us
00:57:54about how do we manage changing our beliefs
00:57:58per your question.
00:57:59What pain reprocessing therapy tells us
00:58:02is that neuroplastic pain is the kind of pain
00:58:05that persists even with no physical causes.
00:58:09And the key is shutting off what is called
00:58:13the fear-pain-fear loop.
00:58:14That at the heart of these chronic conditions,
00:58:18which are real, I'm not saying pain is fake.
00:58:21I'm not saying it's your fault.
00:58:22I'm not saying it's in your head.
00:58:23All pain is real.
00:58:24There's no such thing as fake pain.
00:58:26All pain is real.
00:58:27And it is also true that all pain is in your mind.
00:58:30Turns out that the brain has this amazing ability
00:58:34to turn down the pain or turn up the pain dial
00:58:38based on what it thinks is important,
00:58:40based on what it pays attention to.
00:58:43So for example, in the case of hypnocidation,
00:58:46people, and I've seen the tapes,
00:58:48and tens of thousands of people have done this.
00:58:50This guy that I interviewed by the name of Daniel Gistler,
00:58:53the most analytical, no woo woo, no nonsense type of guy.
00:58:57He used to be a commodities trader.
00:58:59This guy went under surgery,
00:59:01and I've seen the video of operation.
00:59:02I wouldn't believe it unless I've seen it.
00:59:04This guy had metal bolts wrenched from his bone,
00:59:09scalpel cutting into his skin with no anesthesia,
00:59:14no general anesthesia, no local anesthesia for 55 minutes.
00:59:17His heart rate didn't increase.
00:59:20His blood pressure stayed level.
00:59:21He did not experience these physical symptoms of pain
00:59:26or the suffering that comes from pain.
00:59:28He didn't experience it because he had learned
00:59:31this amazing ability to focus his mind
00:59:33through the power of beliefs,
00:59:34and so he trained himself to not feel
00:59:36this intense discomfort.
00:59:38Now if we can do that with surgery
00:59:41without requiring anesthesia,
00:59:43we can do that for all kinds of things.
00:59:44On the flip side, by the way.
00:59:46- Having surgery without anesthetic
00:59:48makes your erectile dysfunction feel like limp, actually.
00:59:53(laughing)
00:59:55- But it's because the ED question around
01:00:00can it cause this negative spiral,
01:00:02well, when you think about these chronic conditions
01:00:03like fibromyalgia, that's an exclusionary diagnosis,
01:00:07or chronic pain, or ED, or insomnia, or anxiety.
01:00:10The list goes on and on of these maladies.
01:00:13It turns out that what's at the center of these
01:00:16are this fear-pain-fear loop,
01:00:19that what the conversation sounds like.
01:00:20And by the way, I used to have terrible back pain as well.
01:00:23And the first thing that happened in my mind
01:00:25was every time I would feel back pain,
01:00:27the conventional wisdom is pain means damage.
01:00:30Pain means harm.
01:00:31Well, if it's damaged, if it's broken,
01:00:33how long is it gonna last?
01:00:34Is this always gonna be this way?
01:00:36What if it never gets better?
01:00:37What does that mean for my future?
01:00:38And I start spiraling, and ruminating, and spiraling,
01:00:40and it would drive me crazy.
01:00:41And guess what?
01:00:43It would turn up the pain dial.
01:00:45Because that experience of feeling that fear
01:00:47is incredibly uncomfortable.
01:00:48It creates physiological responses, right?
01:00:50You start sweating, your mouth gets dry,
01:00:53you start, your heart starts palpitating.
01:00:55All these physical sensations feel shittier and shittier,
01:00:58and so your body pays more and more attention
01:01:00thinking it's under threat.
01:01:02So what you have to do, step one,
01:01:06is to realize that your body is not broken.
01:01:09And this is after you've excluded everything, okay?
01:01:11After you've done the tests and looked at
01:01:13and make sure there is nothing physically wrong
01:01:15where the problem is this neuroplastic pain,
01:01:19now you have to convince yourself that you're assuming
01:01:22that the body is not broken.
01:01:24That this is just information.
01:01:26That's all it is, just information.
01:01:28The next thing we do is we stop trying to fix the pain.
01:01:31Part of our problem is that we have this urgency
01:01:35that I must fix this problem because we live in a time
01:01:37where we expect this to happen.
01:01:38By the way, this has never happened before
01:01:40in 200,000 years of human history.
01:01:42You know, like the French kings used to have
01:01:44all kinds of tooth decay and syphilis and all kinds of,
01:01:48they were constantly in severe,
01:01:50what we would think is today severe pain.
01:01:52But people for 200,000 years had this ability
01:01:54to tune out discomfort because it was just information.
01:01:58They didn't walk around constantly moaning and groaning.
01:02:00I'm sure they were in a lot of pain and suffering.
01:02:02But because that was always part of the human condition,
01:02:05it was something that they carried on with, we think.
01:02:08Whereas today, because we live in an age
01:02:09where we have so much modern medicine,
01:02:11we have the ability to turn off a lot of our suffering
01:02:14like a switch when it comes to sickness rather than illness,
01:02:16we become hyper fixated when we think
01:02:18that there's a problem that can't be solved.
01:02:19And we expect it to be urgently addressed
01:02:21and to go away immediately.
01:02:23So step two is to stop trying to fix that pain.
01:02:27And then what you wanna do is to prove that you're safe.
01:02:31Prove that you're safe.
01:02:32And to constantly remind yourself, this isn't danger.
01:02:35This is a pain signal.
01:02:36It's not danger.
01:02:38One of the things that pain reprocessing therapy does
01:02:41is advise people to add lightness.
01:02:42To add some kind of humor.
01:02:45So telling yourself, ah, I see what you're doing
01:02:47there pain response.
01:02:48Not gonna give me this time.
01:02:49I know this is nothing to be worried about.
01:02:51What I used to do when I felt my back pain,
01:02:53and this was pretty bad back pain.
01:02:54I mean, I have to lay on the floor
01:02:55and I followed all the conventional advice
01:02:57of you have to ice.
01:02:59No, you have to warm.
01:03:00No, you have to immobilize.
01:03:01You can't do anything.
01:03:02What I started doing was every time I felt
01:03:03that twinge in my back,
01:03:05I would intentionally do whatever caused that pain 10 times.
01:03:09And again, disclaimer, after I'd known
01:03:11that there was nothing actually physically wrong.
01:03:13It came from an injury originally that I had in the gym.
01:03:15- Yeah, like if you get a splinter in your foot,
01:03:18putting 10 more splinters in your foot
01:03:19isn't gonna take the splinter out.
01:03:20Yep, yep, yep.
01:03:21- Right, exactly, exactly.
01:03:22But after the splinter's out, it's healed.
01:03:24You can't detect any kind of actual physical damage.
01:03:27It was just neuroplastic pain.
01:03:28I had to teach my brain over and over and over again,
01:03:31I'm safe, I'm safe, I'm safe.
01:03:33Pain is just a signal.
01:03:34I'm not in danger.
01:03:36And then over time, lo and behold, it went away.
01:03:38- And the same, I imagine, would be true
01:03:41for people with chronic fatigue, ME/CFS.
01:03:45Again, assuming that you've not got underlying
01:03:48whatever that's going on.
01:03:48I feel like we need to do this throat clearing
01:03:50so it doesn't sound like fucking victim blaming
01:03:52all of the people who--
01:03:52- Right, right.
01:03:54- Let's say that you've, good example.
01:03:56Me and half of Austin apparently live in houses
01:03:59that have got toxic molds.
01:04:00Toxic mold is particularly brutal for certain people
01:04:03with a genetic susceptibility to it
01:04:05and it causes them to be really tired.
01:04:06You get out of the houses, you follow a shoemaker protocol,
01:04:09you detox all of the mold or most of the mold from you.
01:04:11And now, oh, hey, the system is more functional,
01:04:15but my expected work capacity hasn't caught up
01:04:21to where my real gas tank is.
01:04:24And that re-patterning of the pain, of the fatigue,
01:04:29of the lack of fatigue, the inability to sleep.
01:04:33I'm not a good sleeper.
01:04:34I wake up lots of times throughout the night.
01:04:37I need to go to the bathroom all of the time.
01:04:40That's kind of a real common one
01:04:43for people who just think I need to wake up
01:04:45and go to the bathroom two or three times
01:04:46throughout the night, even if I haven't had that much to drink,
01:04:49even if I know that when I go to the bathroom,
01:04:51oh, it's a problem, it's a prostate, it's a whatever.
01:04:53It's like, well, you know,
01:04:54if you've had all of the things checked, it's not.
01:04:57- It could just, yeah, that's exactly right.
01:04:59I mean, one of the things that I've adopted
01:05:01is these mantras, these prayers that,
01:05:04maybe they're not prayers
01:05:05'cause they don't have a religious connotation,
01:05:07but I have many mantras that I repeat throughout the day.
01:05:09And I used to have terrible insomnia and I tried everything.
01:05:11I tried the pills, I tried all kinds of things.
01:05:15And then, as I was doing this research
01:05:18around the power of the mind and beliefs
01:05:20to change our bodies,
01:05:21that your beliefs really do become your biology,
01:05:24and I'm sorry it took me so long.
01:05:26I'm 48 now, but it took me a long time to realize this.
01:05:29I tried to eliminate the fear.
01:05:32And when you eliminate the fear,
01:05:34you also eliminate the suffering.
01:05:36So my mantra, when I wake up at 2 a.m.
01:05:39and I start ruminating about, oh my gosh,
01:05:43if I don't get to sleep soon,
01:05:44I'm gonna have an awful day tomorrow
01:05:46and I've got this big interview with Chris
01:05:47and what if I don't do well and I better get to sleep
01:05:50and I can't get to sleep.
01:05:50Well, it turns out the number one cause of insomnia
01:05:53is worrying about insomnia.
01:05:55That is the number one cause of insomnia.
01:05:57And so we take medication to knock us out,
01:06:00so we stop worrying.
01:06:01But really, I found the most effective thing I ever did
01:06:05was to replace the fear with a new belief.
01:06:07That new belief is, and this is what I literally say
01:06:10to myself every time I wake up at 2 a.m.,
01:06:13I close my eyes and I repeat to myself
01:06:16and I take a deep breath on the way in,
01:06:17I say it, and then I say it again on the way out.
01:06:20I say, as I take a deep breath, I say,
01:06:22the body gets what the body needs if you let it.
01:06:25The body gets what the body needs if you let it.
01:06:27So that's a deep breath in, a deep breath out.
01:06:30And what I'm doing is reminding myself that, you know what,
01:06:33if I don't get a good night's sleep tonight,
01:06:35my body will make up for it the next night, right?
01:06:38That if I let it, now the biggest problem is,
01:06:40why do I say if you let it?
01:06:42'Cause if you went to bed at 1 a.m.
01:06:44and you need to get up at six, that's on you, right?
01:06:46You didn't plan properly.
01:06:48But if you let it, if you give your body
01:06:51the time it needs to rest,
01:06:52it's gonna rest or it doesn't need it.
01:06:54And if I stay up for an hour or so
01:06:57and I read my Kindle in bed, that's okay too.
01:06:59That's fine, that there's nothing that's wrong with it,
01:07:01'cause it means the next night,
01:07:02I probably will get to sleep.
01:07:03So repeating those simple mantras,
01:07:05and I read the Kindle after I've tried that mantra,
01:07:07and if it doesn't work, then I read the Kindle.
01:07:08That works 99% of the time.
01:07:10I always have a boring book on my Kindle, by the way,
01:07:11which is amazing, 'cause it scrambles that rumination cycle,
01:07:14and then you can finally get back to sleep.
01:07:16- We'll get back to talking in just one second,
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01:08:19Talk to me about the neuroscience of agency
01:08:21because we're talking about an interesting balance here.
01:08:25One element is almost a letting go.
01:08:29It's my body will give me what it needs if I let it.
01:08:33So that's a relinquishing of the need to be the person
01:08:38that's pushing specifically around something like sleep, right?
01:08:42Or I don't need to check on the pain.
01:08:45But at the same time, we know that agency is the thing
01:08:49that most people desire.
01:08:52It's one of the top three,
01:08:53even if nobody knows what it means,
01:08:55I think it's what they want, right?
01:08:57They want the independence, action,
01:08:59the ability to happen to life
01:09:00as opposed to let life happen to them.
01:09:02Talk to me about neuroscience of agency.
01:09:06- Yeah, so agency is what I call the third power of belief,
01:09:09that beliefs can change not only what you see,
01:09:11we talked about how beliefs shape your vision of reality,
01:09:14they shape how you feel internally,
01:09:16whether it's chronic pain,
01:09:18whether it's going through surgery without anesthesia,
01:09:21and most importantly, beliefs change what you do.
01:09:24Now it changes what you do
01:09:25based on what you think is possible for you to do.
01:09:28And so not only can you have these nocebo effects
01:09:31that we talked about earlier,
01:09:31just as a quick recap of how your labels
01:09:34can become your limits and make you less agentic
01:09:38because you think, well, that's impossible, I can't do it.
01:09:41Certain beliefs allow you to be more agentic.
01:09:45So for example, I interviewed this guy
01:09:49by the name of David Fajenbaum,
01:09:50who had this incurable disease.
01:09:54And he tells me how a nurse came in and told him,
01:09:59"Hey, guess what?
01:10:01"You had this disease, I've never ever heard of it,
01:10:03"but at least it's not cancer."
01:10:04And then he does a Google search
01:10:05and he figures out actually the mortality rate
01:10:07is even worse than cancer for this disease that he has.
01:10:09- Oh God, you've got super cancer.
01:10:11- You've got super cancer, exactly.
01:10:13And so he finds the one expert in the world
01:10:16who knows this disease backwards and forwards.
01:10:18- Okay, agency. - And he told me that he,
01:10:20yeah, exactly, well, kind of.
01:10:23He tells me about how he had this Santa Claus theory
01:10:26that his whole life he thought,
01:10:27well, if I just find the right person to send my wish into,
01:10:30just like Santa Claus, well, surely they'll have a solution.
01:10:33So this doctor recommends a medication, does not work.
01:10:36And then he asked the doctor,
01:10:39well, okay, what's the next course of treatment?
01:10:41Nothing.
01:10:42Well, but what's the research that's being done about this?
01:10:45There is no more research.
01:10:46Says, well, what are next steps?
01:10:47There are no more next steps.
01:10:49And so his whole Santa Claus theory
01:10:50that someone's gonna save him never materialized.
01:10:54And he decides that night that he has to do something.
01:10:57And he spends the next several years
01:11:00combing through all the research he can possibly find,
01:11:04throws away this theory
01:11:05that someone's gonna come and save me.
01:11:07And he does everything he possibly can.
01:11:09It turns out he finds a medication
01:11:11that has been already approved for years
01:11:14that's sitting on the shelf
01:11:15that nobody tried for his condition.
01:11:17And it saves his life.
01:11:19Now he actually has a foundation that does this through AI
01:11:21and has saved countless thousands of people
01:11:24through a similar methodology.
01:11:25Now, what David demonstrated was understanding
01:11:28that you have a lot more agency that you think.
01:11:31Then most of us kind of accept,
01:11:33well, a good patient should just take lessons from the doctor.
01:11:36They should do what the doctor says.
01:11:37You shouldn't do your own research
01:11:38because we're the experts.
01:11:40Well, David said BS and he tried to do his own research.
01:11:43And he tried his own experimentations
01:11:44even when he wasn't sure if they would work.
01:11:46So big picture, we have a lot more agency than we think.
01:11:51And so there's two kinds of agency.
01:11:53We call this an internal locus of control
01:11:55versus an external locus of control.
01:11:57And so people kind of know this research already
01:12:00that external locus of control is about thinking
01:12:03that your life is controlled by things outside of you.
01:12:06Internal locus of control means you think
01:12:08you can affect change in the world.
01:12:09Now, what's interesting about this
01:12:12is that even when the cards are stacked against you,
01:12:15even when you have all the right in the world
01:12:19to say that things aren't going well
01:12:21and external factors are controlling you,
01:12:25you still are better off
01:12:27than having an internal locus of control.
01:12:29People with an internal locus of control live longer,
01:12:31they have more friends, they contribute more
01:12:33to the community, they're happier,
01:12:34they have fewer mental health issues.
01:12:36Internal locus of control seems to be protective
01:12:39in so many different ways
01:12:41even when the cards are stacked against you.
01:12:42The only case where it's not helpful
01:12:44to have an internal locus of control
01:12:46is when you judge other people.
01:12:47So for yourself, you want to have an internal locus of control.
01:12:52For others, you want to try and give them the grace
01:12:56of thinking, well, they must be operating
01:12:58under circumstances that they can't control.
01:13:01That turns out to be a much healthier point of view.
01:13:05- Why does the brain default to helplessness then?
01:13:07If helpfulness and agency is so great,
01:13:12why is that not a set point?
01:13:15- Yeah, well, this is what you just said
01:13:17is actually the exact opposite
01:13:19of what everybody thought for 50 years in psychology
01:13:23because we thought that helplessness was learned.
01:13:25We call it learned helplessness.
01:13:27Seligman and Meyer did these studies with dogs
01:13:29and they could show that you could train dogs
01:13:31to give up, that they would learn helplessness,
01:13:34that we were born hopeful
01:13:36and then life beats us down and we give up.
01:13:38Just a couple of years ago,
01:13:40these same researchers completely changed their mind.
01:13:43- I saw this study, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:13:47- Oops.
01:13:48- Sorry, just half a century of learned helplessness
01:13:52being in the lexicon.
01:13:53Who was it?
01:13:54It was Scott Barry Kaufman on his pod
01:13:56that first talked about this and learned hopefulness.
01:14:00- Yes, exactly. - Dude, fucking wild.
01:14:03- Wild, wild, because we built entire philosophies
01:14:07about why the poor are poor
01:14:09and why these conditions lead to,
01:14:11built out of this research that everybody thought was true.
01:14:15Well, it turns out that we don't learn helplessness.
01:14:19That's our default state.
01:14:21I mean, if you think about it,
01:14:22that's how we come out of the womb.
01:14:23For human beings, we are absolutely defenseless.
01:14:26We require our parents to take care of us.
01:14:30A baby doesn't have claws, doesn't have teeth,
01:14:32can't run away, we need someone to take care of us.
01:14:34So maybe what we think,
01:14:36perhaps the evolutionary adaptation,
01:14:38is that you want, when a baby is in danger,
01:14:40you want a baby to be passive and helpless
01:14:42so that they can be taken care of, perhaps,
01:14:45and that there is safety in passivity
01:14:47because safety is what you know, right?
01:14:50So there is this fight, flight, or freeze response,
01:14:53and so that freeze response is that passivity response.
01:14:57What that means, however, is that we have to learn hope.
01:15:00We have to learn hope.
01:15:03I mean, it would kind of make sense
01:15:04that in a tribal environment,
01:15:06you almost don't want people to be too radical.
01:15:08Like, if you think, you know,
01:15:09if you don't want too many people to challenge
01:15:11the tribe chief and to, you know,
01:15:13think that they're, that they can change things up,
01:15:16you kind of want stability in a society,
01:15:17so maybe that's where that comes from.
01:15:19I don't really know, I'm not an evolutionary psychologist.
01:15:21But what we do know is that there is a circuit in the brain,
01:15:24that Seligman called the hope circuit,
01:15:26that is how we learn our agency,
01:15:30that we have to learn through tiny steps
01:15:32what is possible, what we can do.
01:15:33But that must be, in fact, taught.
01:15:35- George, my housemate, is currently writing his book,
01:15:40which is all about agency.
01:15:41And the idea that,
01:15:49the idea that you don't always,
01:15:53you're not always in control,
01:15:54but you can believe that you are,
01:15:56to me, like, 'cause I'm just hearing him
01:15:57unload these stories over and over again.
01:15:59There's another one from Johan Hari.
01:16:03Did you look at that study of the pain wand?
01:16:07Was it in the 1800s?
01:16:09So there was a special wand where it was wood wrapped in metal
01:16:13with wires around it and a special electricity box.
01:16:16- Oh, the mesmerism stuff.
01:16:18Is that what this is?
01:16:19And they'd wave it over people
01:16:20and then they slowly took away one element of the wand
01:16:25and they took away, they unplugged the electricity,
01:16:27then they took away the box, then they took away the wires,
01:16:29then they took away the metal, then they took away the wood.
01:16:31And it was just a guy waving his hand over patients.
01:16:34And it had the same effect.
01:16:37- Yeah, yeah.
01:16:38I mean, I used to poo poo this stuff
01:16:39and they go, "This is crazy.
01:16:40"These are stupid people, they're gullible."
01:16:43I don't say that stuff anymore.
01:16:44Because if it works and it's cheap
01:16:48and it's not hurting anybody, maybe it's okay.
01:16:51Maybe those placebo pills that are on sale on Amazon
01:16:53are not such a bad idea.
01:16:54I'll give you another one
01:16:55about a non-pharmaceutical one that blew my mind.
01:16:56Do you know the story of Serena Williams at Wimbledon
01:16:59and her coach, Patrick?
01:17:01Have you heard about this one?
01:17:01- No, no.
01:17:03- So Serena Williams was not doing well at Wimbledon.
01:17:08She was gonna lose.
01:17:09And her coach comes up to her and he says,
01:17:13"I have some amazing news for you.
01:17:15"When you rush the net, you make 80% of the points."
01:17:19She says, "What are you talking about?
01:17:21"I suck at the net."
01:17:23He's like, "Wait, look, hey, the stats don't lie.
01:17:26"The stats said that when you rush the net,
01:17:29"you make 80% of the points."
01:17:30Now, what he had noticed is that she was lying to herself.
01:17:34She was already delusional.
01:17:36Her confidence was broken because she wasn't doing well.
01:17:38And she wasn't doing what she had to do.
01:17:40And so she was telling a story in her head.
01:17:42She had a limiting belief that I shouldn't rush the net.
01:17:46So he knows this.
01:17:47He can see it in his player.
01:17:49And he tells her what turns out to be 100% fabrication.
01:17:54It's not true.
01:17:55She is not scoring 80% of the points
01:17:58when she rushes the net.
01:18:00He tells her this.
01:18:01He says, "Can't lie with the stats."
01:18:03She then goes on to start rushing the net
01:18:05and turns out wins Wimbledon.
01:18:08So he likes to say, he has this score where he says,
01:18:10"You see, sometimes the lies can become reality."
01:18:13And so that's the real takeaway here.
01:18:15Beliefs are tools, not truths.
01:18:17Is it true that she wasn't good at rushing the net?
01:18:22Kinda, sorta, not really.
01:18:23Is it a fact?
01:18:24No, it's a belief.
01:18:25Is it true that she's good at rushing the net
01:18:27and scoring points?
01:18:28Kinda, sorta, it's a belief.
01:18:30Neither are facts.
01:18:30Neither are laws of physics.
01:18:32So based on what you believe,
01:18:33you can turn that belief into reality.
01:18:35Not in a metaphysical way.
01:18:36There's no quantum whatever.
01:18:39It's all about motivation.
01:18:40It's all about what those behaviors get us to actually do.
01:18:43- It feels like a lot of what...
01:18:45One of the big mechanisms for humans here is potential
01:18:50and understanding how much of our total capacity
01:18:54we're currently tapping into or not.
01:18:56I am not a morning person.
01:18:59My potential for getting up on a morning is limited.
01:19:03Well, yeah, there's circadian rhythms
01:19:07and there tend to be set points.
01:19:08Some people are morning locks
01:19:09and some people are night owls and so on and so forth.
01:19:12But your potential to do this is largely determined.
01:19:17So this is a good way to think about it.
01:19:19There is a window.
01:19:21This window is determined by physical reality.
01:19:24It's determined by how much training you've done.
01:19:25It's determined by how fit you are.
01:19:27It's determined by your reaction time or your height
01:19:29or your genetics or whatever it might be, right?
01:19:31This is the window.
01:19:33This is not within your belief's control.
01:19:36Within this window is almost exclusively
01:19:39within your belief's control.
01:19:41And that two-step model, I think, of potential
01:19:45and how it works really explains...
01:19:48People get it confused.
01:19:50They think that their window is way narrower
01:19:53than it actually is and way lower than it actually is.
01:19:55What they don't realize is they're just looking
01:19:57at a little microcosm sliver of what is a much wider window.
01:20:01And there is probably a lot more upside
01:20:02than that's available to them.
01:20:04- What was that story about the dude with the snake?
01:20:08What was that one?
01:20:09Was he in Australia or New Zealand?
01:20:11- Oh, Mortimer?
01:20:14Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.
01:20:17Did I put that in the book?
01:20:19I don't think that made it into...
01:20:20- No, no, no, no, but I've heard you talk about it
01:20:22and I think that it makes a lot of sense here too.
01:20:24- Yeah, oh, that's a good one actually.
01:20:26Now that I think about it,
01:20:27back to the talk around about nocebos.
01:20:29That's a good one, yeah.
01:20:30So this guy is a pain researcher.
01:20:32Mortimer, I think his last name is Gosley.
01:20:34I can't remember, Australian guy.
01:20:36He goes to the Outback, he's on a camping trip,
01:20:38and he gets bitten by one of the most deadly snakes
01:20:44in the Outback.
01:20:45There's all kinds of venomous snakes.
01:20:45He gets bit by one of them,
01:20:47rush to the hospital, barely survives.
01:20:49He's in days and days of excruciating pain.
01:20:52I think they had to put him in a coma.
01:20:53It was incredibly traumatic.
01:20:55Months, months later, I think it was like six months
01:20:59until he got the courage to go back to the Outback
01:21:02and go camping again.
01:21:04He's on a hiking trail and he decides to go by the river
01:21:09and he wants to go in the water or something,
01:21:12and all of a sudden he feels something nip at his heel
01:21:17where he got bitten the time six months before.
01:21:20He collapses onto the ground.
01:21:21He passes out.
01:21:23It turns out it was nothing more than a twig
01:21:25that scratched him.
01:21:27But he had this expectation.
01:21:29Again, his body had this belief about what that means,
01:21:32and then he produced this nocebo response,
01:21:34not because of choice.
01:21:35He wasn't a bad person.
01:21:36He didn't lack willpower.
01:21:37He didn't will it on himself.
01:21:38But he had been trained based on priors
01:21:40to have this hypervigilant response.
01:21:42And so that's exactly what's going on
01:21:43with many of these other conditions as well.
01:21:45- What is your guide for secular rational prayer,
01:21:51placebo prayer?
01:21:54- Placebo prayer.
01:21:55- Take me through the protocol for placebo prayer.
01:21:59- Yeah.
01:22:00So I think you have to find what works for you.
01:22:04And what worked for me was engaging
01:22:08in some kind of regular practice.
01:22:10And what I was particularly curious about
01:22:12is what to pray for.
01:22:14Because I didn't think that,
01:22:17I didn't wanna ask for stuff.
01:22:19I don't believe in some kind of cosmic slot machine
01:22:21that Santa Claus is gonna give me this,
01:22:23give me money, give me health, give me wisdom,
01:22:26give me all that stuff.
01:22:27What I was asking for was not even for life to get easier.
01:22:33I was looking for ways to get stronger,
01:22:35to reinforce the tenets, the attributes
01:22:39that I want to cultivate myself.
01:22:42So patience, tolerance, gratitude, that's what I pray for.
01:22:47I pray to be cognizant of how incredibly lucky I am
01:22:53to live on this tiny marble dot in the universe
01:22:57that's swimming around in a vacuum of space,
01:22:59that we live in this time and place
01:23:01to even have this conversation with conscious awareness.
01:23:05You're in Austin, I'm in Spain,
01:23:08and we're talking over the internet right now.
01:23:09Like how amazing is this future,
01:23:12or is this what I would've thought would've been
01:23:14a science fiction future,
01:23:15and today we're actually living it.
01:23:16So to be consciously gracious and humble about that,
01:23:21that's something I try and remind myself through a practice
01:23:23of prayer, and it turns out that doing that on your own
01:23:27has benefits, of course.
01:23:28It's also a form of problem solving.
01:23:31So many times when I pray, it's a little bit different
01:23:34from meditation.
01:23:34So when I used to meditate, I used to meditate quite a bit,
01:23:37and I don't really meditate as much anymore.
01:23:40It's not that I'm anti, I think it has all kinds of benefits,
01:23:42but the role of meditation, at least the kind of meditation
01:23:45I would practice, was being aware of your thoughts
01:23:47and then letting your thoughts go.
01:23:50That's not what I do anymore.
01:23:52Again, not that it's bad.
01:23:53I think it helps lots of people.
01:23:54There's a lot of great research about how wonderful it is.
01:23:55I've kind of moved on to a point now
01:23:58where now prayer almost becomes a form of problem solving,
01:24:01where by just thinking, by just letting my mind
01:24:06think about the problem in a specific time and place,
01:24:11not in between tasks, not for a minute here, a minute there,
01:24:14but just to contemplate.
01:24:16Sometimes I even do it through writing.
01:24:18That can be a form of prayer for me.
01:24:20That problem solving, and even religious people
01:24:23who have a faith tradition,
01:24:24when they have that conversation with God,
01:24:27many times it can open up those opportunities
01:24:30for them to make change in their life
01:24:32that if they had not made that time
01:24:34to have that conversation with their maker,
01:24:35that they wouldn't have found those opportunities.
01:24:37Now, when you layer on top of that a community,
01:24:41that's amazing.
01:24:43This is what the Catholic priest said to me.
01:24:45He said, "People come to mass
01:24:47"and they come with all kinds of requests."
01:24:49They say, "God, please help my daughter, help my business,
01:24:54"help me heal, help me this."
01:24:56What they don't realize is that many times
01:24:58the way God answers these prayers
01:25:00is with the people next to you,
01:25:02that when you're in church with people in the pew
01:25:05who could help you with the business,
01:25:07could help you with your health,
01:25:08could help you with that relationship you're seeking
01:25:10to mend or build or find.
01:25:12And so there is a place with that community
01:25:14that I think many times secular people, free thinkers,
01:25:17like I am, we miss out on.
01:25:19And so what I now do is to take part in those communities,
01:25:23whereas before I was so wedded to the fact
01:25:26that it had to be true, that I had to believe everything.
01:25:28And frankly, I think congregations also demanded that.
01:25:31I kind of felt that if I don't,
01:25:34I don't belong unless I believe everything they tell me,
01:25:37I'm an imposter.
01:25:38But now I've kind of relaxed that, right?
01:25:40It's don't ask, don't tell.
01:25:41Nobody asks the pope exactly what he believes, right?
01:25:44Nobody questions him.
01:25:45- There's no faith test on the way out to ensure that you--
01:25:49- Some places do that,
01:25:51but I don't want to be part of those places.
01:25:53- It's a very utilitarian view of this.
01:25:56Look, it seems to make people live longer
01:25:59and be healthier and enjoy life more.
01:26:02Why would I not try this particular tactic?
01:26:08Okay, so you're doing it on a nighttime,
01:26:10you're doing it in the morning, are you saying it out loud?
01:26:11Are you doing it with a partner?
01:26:12Are you doing it on your own?
01:26:13What have you found?
01:26:15- I do it whenever I pass a religious institution.
01:26:19So if the door's open, I walk in.
01:26:22I didn't know you could do that, but you can.
01:26:24You can just walk in,
01:26:25even if you're not a member of that congregation,
01:26:27even if it's not your background.
01:26:30And you can go in and you can pray.
01:26:32- Unreal.
01:26:35Dude, I think this is a much needed book.
01:26:38I think it's a, and I appreciate that you managed
01:26:40to balance the, you have got control of this
01:26:45with the way that you feel is not unreal and not fake.
01:26:48And I think that walking that line is a really difficult one
01:26:50because it switches people off immediately
01:26:53if they feel like they're being victim blamed
01:26:54for something that they feel
01:26:56and being able to empower somebody
01:26:58to you can make changes to this.
01:27:00And also everything that you're going through
01:27:03is completely 100% real.
01:27:06That is a, it's not an easy one.
01:27:07So congratulations, man.
01:27:09Where should people go to check out
01:27:10everything you got going on?
01:27:11- I appreciate it, thank you.
01:27:12So my blog is niranfar.com.
01:27:15Nira spelt like my first name.
01:27:16That's N-I-R-N-FAR.com.
01:27:19And we actually have a special bonus.
01:27:20We put together a five minute belief change plan,
01:27:24which you don't have to buy anything.
01:27:25You don't have to sign up for anything.
01:27:26It's completely free.
01:27:26We just couldn't fit it in the book.
01:27:28And that is at niranfar.com/belief-change.
01:27:32That's niranfar.com/belief-change.
01:27:37- Heck yeah.
01:27:39Nira, until the next time, get writing.
01:27:41We'll talk again.
01:27:42- Appreciate it.
01:27:43Thanks, Chris.
01:27:44- Congratulations.
01:27:45You made it to the end of an episode.
01:27:48Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:27:49by the internet just yet.
01:27:51Here's another one that you should watch.
01:27:54Go on.