Transcript
00:00:00- Who was better in bed, Jennifer Aniston or Megan Fox?
00:00:04- Oh my God, it's making me uncomfortable.
00:00:06The trouble you get me in if I even attempt to answer that.
00:00:09- Sorry, I'm digging into your personal history.
00:00:11It's really awkward for you.
00:00:13- I'm flattered that you bring up my exes that way.
00:00:16But yeah, that kind of question,
00:00:19if a man is to give an answer,
00:00:21it kind of makes people uncomfortable, right?
00:00:23But there's been a recent incident
00:00:26where the kind of exact mirror incident has happened
00:00:29where a woman has been asked
00:00:31and it's total crickets in terms of controversy,
00:00:34except for my fire tweet.
00:00:36I come in to record an episode with you
00:00:39and then one hour after leaving,
00:00:41I write a tweet that becomes my most viral one of all time,
00:00:45except maybe Olly Moore's incident and classic.
00:00:47So it's got me back in here again
00:00:49before my flight back to Ireland.
00:00:51All right, let's see this clip.
00:00:53- Who was better in bed?
00:00:54That is really hard
00:00:59because Brad was like the sort of major chemistry,
00:01:04love of your life kind of like at the time, you know?
00:01:07And then Ben was like, technically excellent.
00:01:10(both laughing)
00:01:14- Holy fuck, I can't believe my daughter's listening to this.
00:01:18- Technically excellent, yeah.
00:01:20- So, I mean, I think she finessed the question pretty well.
00:01:26She handled it, that could have gone so much worse.
00:01:29But my tweet in response to this clip was,
00:01:32imagine Brad Pitt just jumping onto Modern Wisdom
00:01:35or jumping onto Joe Rogan or Andrew Huberman
00:01:38and discussing who was better in bed, Angelina or Jennifer.
00:01:42You know, it just would have a visceral reaction.
00:01:45The internet would explode and, you know,
00:01:48it's just a huge glaring double standard.
00:01:51And when I say that she finessed that pretty well,
00:01:55it could have been a lot worse.
00:01:56Like she could have, there could have been a clear winner.
00:01:59(both laughing)
00:02:00Like that would be really bad, you know?
00:02:04At face value, it's not too bad
00:02:05to have both guys described pretty well.
00:02:08But it was funny.
00:02:09A couple of guys in the responses to my post said,
00:02:13oh, imagine how embarrassing it would be
00:02:16to be Ben Affleck there,
00:02:18that you had to work to put in effort of technical skill,
00:02:22whereas Brad Pitt had the raw passion
00:02:24there without even having to try.
00:02:26It's like, come on,
00:02:27how much of a precious princess do you want to be?
00:02:30But ultimately the whole thing
00:02:31just brings in a huge double standard.
00:02:33- If you need to break down someone's sex skill
00:02:35like Bill Belichick, that's fine.
00:02:38But I think if you were to ask women
00:02:41how much they think that guys talk graphically about sex,
00:02:45they would be surprised at how much
00:02:47we never, ever, ever talk about sex.
00:02:49To every single woman in the world,
00:02:54your boyfriend and your guy friends
00:02:55do not talk about sex graphically with their friends at all.
00:02:58If you started talking about something
00:03:00that you got up to with a girl that wasn't funny,
00:03:02if it's a funny, weird story,
00:03:04you ended up shitting yourself when you were asleep
00:03:06after a one-night stand or you were about drunk over,
00:03:08whatever, whatever, okay, that's kind of newsworthy.
00:03:10But if you tell me in deep depth what you get up to,
00:03:15it sort of turns this ick switch inside of me
00:03:19that is really horrible.
00:03:20- Yeah, but that's the sex difference anyway,
00:03:24in terms of how much detail women share
00:03:26about all aspects of their social life.
00:03:29They go into a lot of detail,
00:03:30whereas men are more surface level.
00:03:32Like you'll come home from a evening out
00:03:34with your guy friends and your missus will ask you
00:03:38all of these questions about your friends.
00:03:40"How's the baby?"
00:03:41And it's like, "Baby, didn't even realize."
00:03:43You know, they go into so much more detail
00:03:45and that includes sexual exploits.
00:03:48So that is a surprising sex difference.
00:03:50And look, there is a sex difference
00:03:53in how harmful it might be.
00:03:55You won't hear me, a member of the bus lab,
00:03:58who, you know, researches sex differences
00:04:01and sexual conflict all the time.
00:04:04We know that it is much more harmful.
00:04:06Sexual violence and sexual harm towards women
00:04:09is more harmful towards women than it is to men.
00:04:11It's like, but it probably warrants a bit more discussion
00:04:15because I think the way the question was phrased
00:04:19is not something most men would enjoy.
00:04:21I don't think most men would enjoy that direct comparison.
00:04:24And also this type of comparison,
00:04:27a lot of people have said to me,
00:04:28"Oh, well Howard Stern has been doing that since the '90s."
00:04:31And I'm thinking Howard Stern is universally regarded
00:04:35as like gutter kind of locker room talk at best.
00:04:40"Call Her Daddy" is one of the most popular podcasts
00:04:43in the world and listened to by loads of women.
00:04:46And it kind of speaks to maybe this larger meta point
00:04:50of the, you know, so much is said
00:04:52about the negative influence of manosphere influencers
00:04:56or male podcasts, bros, like yourself even,
00:05:00your episode with Stephen Bartlett on "Diary of CEO,"
00:05:03you got in massive trouble over it.
00:05:06Whereas, you know, the "Call Her Daddy" podcast,
00:05:08I'm not a massive expert on it,
00:05:10but as far as I can tell, it does promote a lot of women
00:05:13to enjoy casual sex and be kind of engaged in that life
00:05:17and kind of trivialises it a little bit
00:05:19and makes it into kind of an entertainment
00:05:21and encourages women to almost make their life
00:05:24an entertaining story like that.
00:05:27And from a mating psychologist perspective,
00:05:31that is a hugely harmful message to young women.
00:05:34We know the data are very clear
00:05:36that it's vanishingly few women
00:05:38who benefit psychologically from casual sex.
00:05:41Most women have a terrible experience.
00:05:43In fact, one study found that the only predictor
00:05:47of a positive experience during casual sex
00:05:50in a large study was being male.
00:05:53So it's like, you know, Louise Perry always talks about,
00:05:57oh, this hookup culture benefits
00:05:59the unrestricted sociosexual people.
00:06:02And those are predominantly male, overwhelmingly male
00:06:05and vanishingly few women.
00:06:06So, you know, the larger kind of meta point
00:06:09is what is the influence of some of these female influencers?
00:06:13And in our previous episode,
00:06:15we talked about angry young women.
00:06:18I'm not saying that call her daddy or making women angry,
00:06:21but when I reposted the clip
00:06:25and made the comments that I did,
00:06:27there was this one comment from a female lawyer
00:06:29or law student that said,
00:06:31if Brad Pitt did do that,
00:06:33you'd have an army of young men laughing along with them
00:06:37and relishing it.
00:06:38And that kind of opinion can only take hold
00:06:43if you're extrapolating the behaviour
00:06:45of the edgiest edgelords on the internet
00:06:48and using that to think that's how men are like writ large.
00:06:52And it's just not the case.
00:06:53And it just kind of made me sad
00:06:55to think that she would come to that conclusion.
00:06:57And it's that type of thing
00:06:58that does make a generation of young women
00:07:01really angry at men or hate men,
00:07:03have really low opinion of them.
00:07:05- Why do you think it is that that sort of conversation,
00:07:09if you're talking quite openly about stuff that,
00:07:11I mean, it's, again, Gwyneth played it off pretty well,
00:07:14apart from the Bill Belichick bit.
00:07:16Is that not kind of like a cultural equivalent
00:07:23of sharing a nude?
00:07:24To talk about what happened intimately
00:07:27between you and somebody else,
00:07:28is that not kind of supposed to be done
00:07:30in a sort of confidence?
00:07:32- Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:33And there's no consent.
00:07:34We hear an awful lot about consent,
00:07:36but no one consented to that as far as I'm aware,
00:07:39unless Brad and Ben have privately given consent.
00:07:42And it can cause an awful lot of problems
00:07:45outside of just the obvious, the personal embarrassment.
00:07:47And you might think,
00:07:48oh, well, a lot of men would enjoy that.
00:07:50And it's kind of advertising their prowess to others.
00:07:54But it could cause a lot of conflict
00:07:55for their current or future relationships.
00:07:58So, you know.
00:07:59- Oh, tactically great, were you?
00:08:01Tactically great in bed?
00:08:02- Right.
00:08:03- Tactically great in bed with Gwyneth Paltrow, were you?
00:08:04- Exactly.
00:08:05What were you doing for her?
00:08:06You're not doing it for me?
00:08:07- Absolutely, could cause an awful lot of conflict there.
00:08:10But also there might be a lot of variability
00:08:13that yes, a lot of men might enjoy
00:08:15that being spoken about in these terms,
00:08:18but a lot of men don't.
00:08:20Like these are like on average group differences.
00:08:22And we have data that men, you know,
00:08:25don't perceive being sexually harassed
00:08:29in any way near as harmful as women perceive it.
00:08:32But there's a lot of variability.
00:08:33There are some men who really would hate that.
00:08:37- I did a poll one time on,
00:08:39have you heard of hot dudes reading?
00:08:42- Yes.
00:08:43- So this is, were you ever caught in the act?
00:08:45- No, I don't read publicly that much
00:08:47and I haven't caught enough.
00:08:48- Okay.
00:08:49Well, anyway, it's this kind of candid photo group
00:08:52of hot guys who are caught reading.
00:08:55And this is very sexually exciting to a lot of women.
00:08:58So there's a whole page for these guys.
00:09:01And I ran a poll to say, I think I saw somebody,
00:09:04maybe George Tinman commenting about how this is an invasion
00:09:08of their privacy.
00:09:08And I kind of thought that was a little bit of a reach.
00:09:11And I thought most men would absolutely love
00:09:13to be featured in such a--
00:09:15- Hot dudes reading?
00:09:15- Yeah, it's a great boost.
00:09:17But I did the poll and I think it was something like
00:09:2016% of men said they would hate it.
00:09:23And you know, there is a lot of variability
00:09:27in how men might perceive being spoken about.
00:09:29And again, the key thing is the comparison.
00:09:32Men don't typically like to be compared to.
00:09:34And maybe that's one of the reasons
00:09:35why they don't want to have these discussions all that much
00:09:39is because women compare prowess.
00:09:41- I think the main point to drive home
00:09:43is how little guys talk about this stuff with their bros.
00:09:46Around a dinner table,
00:09:47I've never had a conversation like that.
00:09:49I think guys might talk a little bit more about
00:09:53sex sort of on the front end.
00:09:55I hooked up last night.
00:09:56I slept with this bird last night.
00:09:58Oh, what happened after you went out, da, da, da, da, da.
00:10:00But way less on the back end
00:10:01of what were the sort of nitty gritty details?
00:10:04What happened graphically?
00:10:05What do you and your girlfriend get up to?
00:10:06What do you and your long-term partner get up to?
00:10:08Women, I think would be much more likely
00:10:10to hide what they do on the front end.
00:10:12If you have a one night stand,
00:10:13have to assume that there would be less likely
00:10:15to tell their friends than the guy would.
00:10:16But seem to be much more open
00:10:19about what they're getting up to on the back end.
00:10:21Maybe it's the, how would you say like,
00:10:25charitable interpretation is,
00:10:26well, if you're paying compliments
00:10:28to the guys that you've been sleeping with
00:10:30and you don't have a male brain,
00:10:32but you think you know what a male brain wants,
00:10:33you go, well, if I'm saying something good,
00:10:36that's just picking him up, right?
00:10:37He's hot dude's reading.
00:10:39This is the sex equivalent of hot dude's reading.
00:10:41Apart from the fact that it causes all sorts of problems
00:10:44if this gets back to somebody that they're now dating.
00:10:47And also, I don't know whether every guy does want
00:10:49their Bill Belichick gameplay analyzed.
00:10:52Yeah, and like I said,
00:10:54only for Gwyneth really finessed the question.
00:10:57It may not have gone that way.
00:10:58It may have been, oh yeah, Brad was great,
00:11:01but Ben did this horrific thing or whatever.
00:11:04It could have easily gone that direction.
00:11:05So the question was designed to cause friction and conflict.
00:11:10So it wasn't planned,
00:11:12that it would be so gracefully handled.
00:11:15But I do think you point out something interesting
00:11:17in the way that women exchange information like that
00:11:20and the reasons why they do.
00:11:22So in female friendships,
00:11:23it's very important for women to show vulnerability
00:11:26to each other so they're not seen as threatening.
00:11:28And being a bit overly promiscuous
00:11:31or having an embarrassing story or a sexual exploit
00:11:34is kind of seen as information that women share
00:11:37and expect similar information shared in return.
00:11:40So I was talking with my girlfriend about this
00:11:42and in female friendship groups,
00:11:44if one person shares a story like that,
00:11:47they're almost waiting immediately for the return story.
00:11:52Rally it back to me, give me an embarrassing story
00:11:54or a sexual story from your perspective.
00:11:56And if it doesn't- - Mutually assured
00:11:57destruction. - Yes, and if it doesn't come,
00:12:00then that person is seen as, oh, not a good ally,
00:12:03is not willing to play by the rules here.
00:12:07- Were there any other weird responses
00:12:09that you got to that or any other surprising responses?
00:12:11It really went fucking ballistic.
00:12:13It went absolutely interstellar.
00:12:14And I think we're gonna see more of this
00:12:16as Steve Stewart Williams' new book comes out,
00:12:20"Billion Years of Sex Differences,"
00:12:22as the talk about the differences between men and women
00:12:26becomes less taboo because kind of the more woke,
00:12:29super progressive overreach of 2020 has dropped away.
00:12:32These sorts of conversations and maybe some double standards
00:12:36are gonna get called out more and more,
00:12:37and that's gonna mean that people
00:12:39are gonna have to face this.
00:12:40But I don't know whether there was anything else
00:12:42that you thought was interesting that you came up against.
00:12:44- Yeah, I mean, the main sentiment
00:12:45was a lot of people saying, oh, well, it is different,
00:12:48and men and women are different,
00:12:49and just get with the program,
00:12:50which I thought was kind of ironic
00:12:51to be told that by the internet,
00:12:54given that our lab focuses so much on sex differences.
00:12:57So in my supervisor, David Buss, in his book,
00:13:00he either begins it or finishes it
00:13:03with a quote from intersectional feminist Kimberly Crenshaw,
00:13:08which I thought was a really clever move,
00:13:10but she's quoted as saying,
00:13:12"Treating different things the same
00:13:14"can generate as much inequality
00:13:16"as treating the same things different."
00:13:18I thought it was a really smart move.
00:13:20But it's exactly right.
00:13:21You know, it's not quite the same.
00:13:23Men and women aren't the same.
00:13:24They perceive sexual harassment
00:13:26and sexual harm very different.
00:13:28We have data on that.
00:13:30But like I said, that hides a lot of the variability.
00:13:33So, you know, yeah, you're right.
00:13:35It is, you know, it's interesting that people
00:13:39who ordinarily would rail against sex differences
00:13:42were so quick to invoke them when it suited.
00:13:44It's like, oh, you know,
00:13:46they'd usually rail against sex differences,
00:13:48and then suddenly it suits them to do so,
00:13:51and they're like, oh, no, it's not the same.
00:13:53So, yeah.
00:13:53What do you think would have happened
00:13:54if a guy had done that, but in reverse?
00:13:56- I think it would be a huge scandal.
00:13:58I really do think it would be like cancellation level stuff.
00:14:02And perhaps you might say rightly so.
00:14:04It's a bit ugly.
00:14:06I don't enjoy it when I see it too much.
00:14:07I can't think of any other example.
00:14:09Some people in the comments were saying
00:14:11that John Mayer had an example
00:14:12where he apparently said that Jessica Simpson,
00:14:15it was like a crack.
00:14:17He was addicted to it, couldn't stop.
00:14:19Again, complimentary, but perhaps is not perceived as such.
00:14:23But I can't recall a similar incident
00:14:25because I think we would all recognize it
00:14:27as really kind of ugly.
00:14:29- I'd feel lucky.
00:14:30I'd feel lucky if I saw that.
00:14:32It's, I don't know, man.
00:14:33This is, it's so funny to think about, you know, guys,
00:14:36the highly socio-sexual, lethario, misogyny,
00:14:40sort of red pill consuming, manosphere types.
00:14:42And then if you start to talk deeply
00:14:46about this sort of stuff,
00:14:47everyone gets a little bit sheepish and shy.
00:14:50- Yeah, we're not good on the details.
00:14:51We're like it either happened or it didn't.
00:14:54Don't go too deep, like you said.
00:14:56- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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