A Shocking Turn in the War on Men - Richard Reeves

English
CChris Williamson
ParentingCollege EducationMarriageMental Health

Transcript

00:00:00What has changed or how has the debate about boys and men adapted since we last spoke?
00:00:06What's new?
00:00:07I think when we last spoke, I was still frustrated that there was no political space for this.
00:00:12I think people have become aware things aren't great with boys and men.
00:00:16I was raised awareness of it, but I still felt, maybe particularly on the center-left,
00:00:20that it was difficult to actually do anything about it.
00:00:23And that's changed.
00:00:26I used to say, one of my talking points used to be
00:00:28that it was very hard to get people, especially on the political left,
00:00:31to actually do anything about this problem.
00:00:32First of all, we have to get them to talk about it.
00:00:34A, it's a problem.
00:00:35B, we can talk about it.
00:00:36And then C, we can do something about it.
00:00:38And I can't say that anymore.
00:00:40We've got governors, Governor Newsom, Governor Whitmer, Governor Wes Moore in Maryland,
00:00:46also Governor Spencer Cox in Utah, all of whom have got pretty serious initiatives now
00:00:50to try and promote boys and men.
00:00:52We've got, as I'm speaking to you now, two bills have just been introduced to Congress
00:00:56to create a men's health strategy in office and to help men with their mental health after
00:01:02fatherhood, right?
00:01:02The men matter bill.
00:01:04And there are a bunch of stuff happening in states.
00:01:05So I can't credibly say anymore, you know what?
00:01:09No one's paying any attention to this.
00:01:11I can't sort of say anymore, like you're shouting into the wilderness.
00:01:14And I used to say, like, I'm banging my head against the brick wall,
00:01:16especially on the Democrat side of the aisle.
00:01:18That is just not true anymore.
00:01:20And there's some politics behind that, of course.
00:01:22I will, I think I have to be honest that I felt like I was banging my head against the
00:01:26brick wall with Democrats until November, 2024.
00:01:30And then there was an election.
00:01:33And then my inbox started filling up with Democrats.
00:01:37Because they saw how much they'd fallen behind with men, especially young men.
00:01:40I mean, they can read a poll.
00:01:41And there's no question that one of the things that happened in the '24 election was that
00:01:46Democrats lost men and especially young men in a very, very big way.
00:01:50And I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the Democrats I've just mentioned and that
00:01:53we're working with are very often also mentioned as potential presidential candidates.
00:01:57And so they've realized that we can't win without young men.
00:02:00So I'm not going to lie.
00:02:02I think there's a political dimension to this, but I don't, unlike many people, I don't blame
00:02:07politicians for doing politics, right?
00:02:09So some of the more men's rightsy people have said about Governor Newsom's initiative, for
00:02:13example, which is a serious initiative.
00:02:15What is it?
00:02:15So he signed an executive order last year saying, telling his administration to come back to
00:02:20him with comprehensive plans to help boys and men in K-12 education, employment, and
00:02:25especially mental health.
00:02:26He's already done a male service challenge.
00:02:28He's done a call to get 10,000 more men in California into service, into mentoring, into
00:02:33coaching.
00:02:34They're following that up with a big push on getting more men into teaching.
00:02:39Like male role models in the classroom would be a good idea.
00:02:42And it was very interesting that the men's rightsy folks, if I can use that language for
00:02:45now, or the more and more conservative side of it, they're just like, oh, he's just doing
00:02:50politics.
00:02:51He's just realized that the Democrats have lost young men.
00:02:53And so he's just doing stuff to try and win their votes back.
00:02:55And why is that a bad thing?
00:02:58Isn't that how democracies are supposed to work?
00:03:01And so I just can't say it anymore.
00:03:03I think there's real progress on this.
00:03:06It's serious.
00:03:06Not all of it's making it into the culture war, but that doesn't mean that it's not good.
00:03:11In fact, most of it's not in the culture war.
00:03:13It's not being discussed generally in podcasts or even on cable TV, but it doesn't mean it's
00:03:19not happening.
00:03:20How much is it?
00:03:21Is it a good first step or is this a really significant move?
00:03:24It's a significant move in the sense that it's the first time we've seen serious political
00:03:30figures and policymakers making serious efforts to address the problem.
00:03:34Right.
00:03:34Okay.
00:03:34So it's a significant move in the same way as firing the first shot of a war is a significant
00:03:40move.
00:03:40It's the first thing that happens.
00:03:43And from that, it suggests that more will come after.
00:03:45That's right.
00:03:45So the question is, is there substance behind it?
00:03:47Not sufficient yet.
00:03:48No.
00:03:48And I think part of my role and part of my institute's role is to hold these people to
00:03:52account.
00:03:52Is to say, okay.
00:03:53You said you were going to do that.
00:03:54Yeah.
00:03:54You said you're going to do this.
00:03:55Great.
00:03:56Six months later, we're going to be like, did you do that?
00:03:58Where is the initiative to get more men into mental health care, Governor?
00:04:02What did happen?
00:04:03Did you get 10,000 more men into service, Governor Newsom?
00:04:06Did you increase access to mental health care and paternity leave, Governor Moore?
00:04:12Yes or no?
00:04:13Right.
00:04:13So I'm certainly not saying it's enough, but it is a lot more than we had three or four
00:04:18years ago.
00:04:19I mean, three or four years ago, you couldn't even get people, particularly on that side
00:04:21of the aisle, even to talk about this problem.
00:04:22When did your book come out?
00:04:232022.
00:04:24Okay.
00:04:25So pretty much bang on that.
00:04:26And when did Obama endorse it?
00:04:272024.
00:04:28Okay.
00:04:29So you're sort of tracking this journey over time.
00:04:33Yeah.
00:04:33And honestly, it's been for us, then we suddenly got a pivot and say, okay, we've now got
00:04:38policymakers coming to us saying, okay, I got it.
00:04:40What shall I do?
00:04:41Wait, wait, wait, hold on.
00:04:42That was on our 2029 plan, right?
00:04:44Didn't quite expect to catch up this quickly.
00:04:47And that's obviously a good problem to have, but we have had to pivot and say, okay, how
00:04:51do we actually help these governors or these senators or these legislators do something
00:04:55about it?
00:04:56And my worry honestly, is that this will just have a moment.
00:04:58Either it will be driven by the politics or it'd be driven by suddenly there's this
00:05:03issue, right?
00:05:03Boys and men are being discussed in a way that they weren't before.
00:05:05Sexy to talk about it.
00:05:06Yeah.
00:05:07Where are we going to be five years from now?
00:05:08Five years from now, it might be, I don't know, something else, right?
00:05:10Because these things do have their moments.
00:05:12And the question I'm asking myself is what will I be able to appoint to that's still
00:05:16standing, that's still here?
00:05:18And so actually Virginia is a good example.
00:05:20Virginia is, if the governor, new governor signs it, going to create the first commission
00:05:25on boys and men to sit alongside the commission on women and girls.
00:05:28Now it's just a government commission in a state.
00:05:30You might say great.
00:05:32But what that means is that the issues of boys and men will be at the table in policymaking
00:05:38in Virginia in a way that they weren't before.
00:05:40And that will still be there five years from now if that happens, right?
00:05:43That's going to get line item.
00:05:44It's going to be real.
00:05:45It's going to be institutionalized.
00:05:47And my whole thing, I think we've talked about this before is I want this issue to become
00:05:50boring.
00:05:51I want this issue to be mainstream.
00:05:53Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:53Guys are falling behind.
00:05:54We've heard it.
00:05:55We've heard it.
00:05:55Like we know we're working on it.
00:05:57We've got it.
00:05:57Kind of.
00:05:58Yeah.
00:05:58And I want people to say, well, that's why we've got this office of men's health.
00:06:01And that's why we've created this committee.
00:06:02That's why we've got this big push on male teachers.
00:06:04We're doing it.
00:06:04We're doing it.
00:06:04What are you talking about?
00:06:05It's mum coming upstairs and telling you to clean your room when you've got the hoover.
00:06:08Beds already made.
00:06:09Yeah, exactly.
00:06:10You said that the men's rightsy types don't actually want to win.
00:06:15What do you mean?
00:06:15Well, I've just noticed that when something does happen, it was very nearly a commission
00:06:21in Washington state.
00:06:22I've mentioned the governor's moves.
00:06:24It's that sometimes what will happen with the folks, some of whom have been in this field
00:06:29for a long time, and I would say that they come at this from a more conservative or sometimes
00:06:33even a reactionary perspective.
00:06:35It's like they tend to dismiss these efforts.
00:06:39They'll say, oh, sure, there's been an executive order.
00:06:41Sure, they're creating a commission on boys and men, but they'll put their people on it
00:06:44or they don't really mean it.
00:06:45Are these people inside of government the men's rightsies?
00:06:47No, no, no.
00:06:48These are advocates.
00:06:49These are activists.
00:06:50Okay, like commentators.
00:06:51Yes, or people that have been like, there are various groups out there.
00:06:54They tend to be small and not that well-funded and honestly quite often fueled by grievances.
00:06:59Not necessarily illegitimate grievances.
00:07:01I don't want to be misunderstood, but I'm on various conversations with them.
00:07:06And I heard this rabbi, David Wolpe is his name on a podcast the other day, and he said
00:07:11something really struck me.
00:07:12He said activists are always psychologically reluctant to succeed because there's something
00:07:21about your identity and your purpose that is tied up to your own failure.
00:07:25If you succeed, you have to start saying, great, we've done it.
00:07:30Now I have to find some new identity.
00:07:32If you've actually wrapped up your identity in the sense that the whole of society is stacked
00:07:36against men.
00:07:37There's been a feminist conspiracy against men.
00:07:39No one cares against men.
00:07:40I've spent decades saying this.
00:07:42And then suddenly people do start caring about men and they do start doing stuff about men.
00:07:45You've either got to say, oh, that's not true anymore.
00:07:48And change your identity or say, no, no, that can't be true.
00:07:52I think that's true for like LGBTQ activists.
00:07:54Basically people can't take a win anymore, right?
00:08:00People can't say that's a win.
00:08:02It may not be perfect, but it's a win.
00:08:04Has to be glass half empty rather than glass half full.
00:08:08I think one of the reasons for that is that people worry if they are too grateful for a
00:08:13success, it's not going to continue to push the purpose forward.
00:08:17It's the same reason that hard charging overachiever type A people refuse to let themselves feel
00:08:24too much pleasure when they succeed because my displeasure is exactly the fuel that keeps
00:08:29me going.
00:08:30And it's not too dissimilar with the climate crisis.
00:08:34Not enough is done because, well, maybe if I stop now, even if lots has been done, it'll
00:08:39slow down or it'll reverse or people will forget.
00:08:42So now that we've got the front foot, we must keep going.
00:08:44That would be the more virtuous way to put it.
00:08:46But I also agree.
00:08:47There's a fascinating graph.
00:08:49If you look at the uses of the word racism in the New York Times over the last 20 years
00:08:53and you compare it to how much racism is actually happening, the two lines just have nothing
00:08:59in common and going completely opposite directions.
00:09:00It's like some insane multiples times increase in the word racism.
00:09:04Lots of people made their careers around identifying racism.
00:09:08So you concept creep out things like racism.
00:09:12Yeah.
00:09:12You end up slaying smaller and smaller dragons.
00:09:14Yes.
00:09:15Which makes your cause less and less legitimate.
00:09:17Yeah.
00:09:17Which makes it easier for your opponents then to say, actually, that's kind of silly.
00:09:21And so in the end, I don't think it works.
00:09:24And I said that I don't want to, I want to be balanced about this because I remember getting
00:09:28an email, I think from the human rights, whatever they're called, HRA.
00:09:32And it was something like along the lines of there's never been a worse time to be trans
00:09:37in America.
00:09:37And this was two months after Gorsuch had written his really, I think, incredible civil rights
00:09:45victory to include trans people under the sex discrimination law.
00:09:48I mean, that was a massive civil rights victory for the trans community.
00:09:50And it was almost like, yeah, when we did get that.
00:09:52But look at this terrible thing over here.
00:09:54And I don't want to be misunderstood.
00:09:55I don't want to suggest there aren't still challenges for trans people, but the idea that
00:09:59after extraordinary civil rights victory, I mean, really no one saw that coming, especially
00:10:04from that Supreme court.
00:10:05They couldn't just take that win.
00:10:06And then you have to send out an email, funding saying it's never been a worst time.
00:10:10Is that true?
00:10:12I'm not saying it's a left right thing.
00:10:15It's a, this so attached to the idea that you can't win.
00:10:20And I've really noticed it in my space too.
00:10:22And it's something I think about a lot in my own work is to try and, I really want to up
00:10:25date my own view of the world and make sure that if good stuff's happening, I don't get
00:10:30trapped in this kind of rut.
00:10:32I want to win.
00:10:33I want us to become mainstream and that will mean like, I'll have less to say, but that's
00:10:40good.
00:10:40You want to put yourself out of a job.
00:10:41Like the best dating app would be one that's designed to be deleted.
00:10:45Shouldn't we all want to do that?
00:10:47You should design to be deleted.
00:10:49It's sort of hard, right?
00:10:50But that requires you not to wrap your identity up.
00:10:53So there's a line from Ben Francis, the founder and CEO of Gymshark.
00:10:58And he said when your aspirations for the business are bigger than your aspirations for yourself,
00:11:03then you can be a proper leader.
00:11:05And his point there was that he stepped, he was the founder.
00:11:07Then he became CEO.
00:11:08Then he stepped down as CEO and got some guy from Reebok in who could take them from whatever
00:11:13a hundred million to whatever billion.
00:11:15And then Ben came back in because he was needed at a different time.
00:11:17And he was just happy to do what the mission called him to do.
00:11:20And yeah, if you don't have a grievance anymore, and we saw the rug get pulled out from BLM
00:11:28with this regard, right?
00:11:30It was, some people sounded the alarm early.
00:11:32There's a lot of money there and we can't really work out where it's gone.
00:11:35And they all live in really nice houses.
00:11:37And then it took a lot of pressure.
00:11:39And then eventually that's kind of dissolved.
00:11:41And I think it's done damage to putting forward the rights of black people and minorities in
00:11:48the modern world, because now everything's been tarred with the same brush.
00:11:51That's the problem is that you actually just become too easy a target, right?
00:11:55And you, the last thing you ever want to do is do your enemy's work for you, right?
00:11:59By just being bad, right?
00:12:01Playing into the caricature that they have of you.
00:12:04Exactly.
00:12:05Which is the big, I heard you talk about that as a big fear.
00:12:07But I'm going to turn the tables a bit and ask you, because you have been thinking about
00:12:12talking about this issue of boys and men for many years as well.
00:12:18How do you think the debate's moved just in the last two to three years?
00:12:22There's definitely been more of a mainstream recognition of it.
00:12:29To me, I have to certainly sort of do a little bit of breath work when I read one of these
00:12:37headlines, because I'm trying to work out, is this lip service being paid to blowing with
00:12:42the wind of a cool topic at the moment?
00:12:45Is it kind of like a disclaimer?
00:12:48Well, we did talk, you must remember, we released a four part series in Politico on the crisis
00:12:54of boys and men, by the way, all written by women.
00:12:57Not my piece in Politico, but yes, I take your point.
00:13:00They did the Christine Ember had theirs and hers came out at the same time.
00:13:04Not one was written by a man.
00:13:05If it was why are men talking about women's bodies, that would have probably been an issue
00:13:09had it been reversed.
00:13:10So I'm trying to work out, okay, there's definitely more headlines about it.
00:13:15That I see in the press.
00:13:17I'm not tapped into what's happening in Washington, what's happening on the policy side.
00:13:21It would probably be good.
00:13:22I know that you guys are promoting it, but it would be good if there was a way to get
00:13:26that out more that, you know, good news about men newsletter or something to really allow
00:13:31that to sort of make people who care about the issues of boys and men not feel like it's
00:13:37a permanent losing battle or like all of their efforts.
00:13:42The best that they can hope for is a Washington Post headline once every three months or something
00:13:47like that.
00:13:47We've got Ross Kemp just released a three or five part series about young men.
00:13:53Louis Theroux's documentary just came out on Netflix.
00:13:57Adolescence did so much fucking damage, I think, with the way that it tried to frame things,
00:14:08with the language that it used.
00:14:09Not so much adolescence itself, I think, but the way it was picked up by and interpreted.
00:14:13Well, that's correct.
00:14:16Yeah, it was purposefully left up to interpretation.
00:14:19There was a lot of vacuum in there, and I know that at least some of the guys that helped
00:14:24to contribute to it.
00:14:24Some of the showrunners I feel like had a bit of an agenda and actually did have some things
00:14:30they wanted to put across that I didn't really like.
00:14:32But yeah, it was purposefully left open to interpretation.
00:14:36Unfortunately, it's like a Rorschach test.
00:14:39It was like an ideological Rorschach test for the world.
00:14:42And what did almost everybody think?
00:14:43They all thought the same thing.
00:14:45All the mainstream thought the same thing.
00:14:47What was it?
00:14:48Kemi Badenoch was being pulled up for having not watched it as if it was a fucking documentary.
00:14:52I know.
00:14:53It's the first time in British history that a political leader has been criticized for
00:14:57not watching television.
00:14:58Do you see this, Jared?
00:15:00Mate, it was fucking insane.
00:15:02She gets pulled up on morning TV by saying you need to watch this.
00:15:09What do you mean?
00:15:11It wasn't even reality TV, let alone a documentary.
00:15:14It was you need to watch this fictional portrayal.
00:15:17Wow.
00:15:19It was wild.
00:15:19Of the show adolescence.
00:15:20Right, so the UK is a good example.
00:15:23I've actually, since we spoke, set up a think tank there as well.
00:15:27And we're working quite closely over there.
00:15:28And it's like, it is, you do feel, always one step back, one forward.
00:15:32And a lot, some of the stuff that gets the most attention is not necessarily the stuff
00:15:36that either should or is most important.
00:15:39So simultaneously the UK has released the first ever men's health strategy.
00:15:43And it's a very good document.
00:15:45Whereas Streetings kind of put that forward.
00:15:46They had a very serious debate in parliament on international men's day.
00:15:51And actually all of the MPs told a dad joke at the beginning of the thing.
00:15:55This organization called Dad Shift did that and it's absolutely fucking amazing.
00:15:58That's very cool.
00:15:59It's so cool.
00:16:00Wes Streeting did it as well.
00:16:01It's very fun.
00:16:03It was an amazing debate about men's mental health, about what's happening.
00:16:07They're doing a summit on this.
00:16:08Were you happy with it?
00:16:09I was very happy with it.
00:16:10But then the way that they were talking about adolescence wasn't great for a while.
00:16:15So it's never going to be a straight line.
00:16:20And the other thing that happens is, particularly with things like adolescence,
00:16:23and I suspect with these new documentaries too,
00:16:25I've really noticed this is that the lag between the idea to the screen is so great
00:16:31that by the time it lands, it's out of touch with where the culture currently is.
00:16:35Correct.
00:16:35So it feels like, yeah, that's maybe how people were thinking three years ago,
00:16:39but it's not how it feels now.
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00:17:47Louis filmed the documentary from the start of 25 until the middle end of 25.
00:17:55But that means that they were thinking about it through 24.
00:17:5724.
00:17:58And you go, this is a fast moving,
00:18:00Ross Kemp is probably almost spurred on by the adolescence thing, I think.
00:18:07And you know, he sits down opposite William Costello and he says,
00:18:11"So incels, they kill a lot of people, right?"
00:18:15And William says, "We think that the total number of incel killings worldwide
00:18:22is the upper bound five."
00:18:25And Ross Kemp looks like he's been punched in the head.
00:18:29And you go, "Five per day?"
00:18:33He goes, "No, five, five, total five."
00:18:36So is the territory going to be gained equally?
00:18:41No.
00:18:41What would I say?
00:18:46The gender wars or the sex wars, I guess,
00:18:50of what's happening inside of the home, what's happening with men's roles.
00:18:54Those things, that is going to be downstream from all of the structural changes that need to be made.
00:19:00Like how are we doing with boys' literacy rates, which I know are just falling through the floor.
00:19:05Like they can't read, boys can't read.
00:19:07What's happening with getting them into education or higher education or apprenticeships?
00:19:12And then what's happening with employment?
00:19:14And then what's happening with your place in society and fatherhood and all the rest of it?
00:19:18Like all of these, the issues that I think matter most, that people feel the most,
00:19:23which is, "Well, where's my meaning?
00:19:25And what's my job like?
00:19:26And what's my income like?"
00:19:27All of those are after effects of the stuff that comes before it.
00:19:32And that is education, that's employment, that's mental health support.
00:19:36That's all of the systemic kind of, like your work.
00:19:39And it almost feels-
00:19:41Did you just call my work systemic and boring?
00:19:43Yes.
00:19:43Because if you did, I'm so happy.
00:19:45Yes.
00:19:45I've made my fucking day.
00:19:46I've always wanted to be off my guard.
00:19:49This is like Hallelujah for me.
00:19:50I feel like a guy who's in a relay race and I'm the last dude.
00:19:56I'm the last dude because this sort of stuff, the way that I speak and the place that I can
00:20:01have the biggest impact is actually much closer to the end, I think, in some ways that if we're
00:20:08going to talk about what is the role, maybe not that, I can definitely influence the way
00:20:15that people think and the approaches that guys and girls take to the sort of structure of
00:20:22their lives.
00:20:22But ultimately the big movers that come before that really lay the groundwork are going to
00:20:27be more on the side of what's happening in school, what's happening in employment, what's
00:20:31happening-
00:20:31Right.
00:20:31Well, I think actually it's interesting you put it that way because in some ways I think
00:20:35you're kind of at the back and the front of the relay because-
00:20:38I'm both of the guys in the human centipede.
00:20:40It's sort of doing the work of both, I feel like, and I'm somewhere in the middle.
00:20:44I'm like the rest of the-
00:20:45You can be the middle of the human side.
00:20:46Can I be the middle of that?
00:20:47I don't know.
00:20:47This analogy is working for me.
00:20:49But anyway, so because you have to have space for a good faith conversation about what's
00:20:57actually going on with boys and men and a good faith investigation of that.
00:21:01And you also need young men, especially, to hear that conversation and to feel like we're
00:21:07talking about this stuff in a way that takes them seriously and that says they have problems,
00:21:11not that they are the problem.
00:21:12And so I do think that these sorts of spaces are important for creating the conditions under
00:21:18which policy makers and politicians and others can then do their work, which will then hopefully
00:21:22address the material problems.
00:21:23I don't think we're not going to change some of these material issues overnight, but I think
00:21:28that we could at least do no harm.
00:21:30And for too long, the deficit framing around this issue of young men-
00:21:35What's deficit framing?
00:21:35I mean, we start with what's wrong with them.
00:21:38So classic example, of course, would be toxic masculinity, which I think we've talked about
00:21:42before.
00:21:42And just like, let's start with that.
00:21:43Let's start with not making you toxic, right?
00:21:46Or what's wrong with boys in school?
00:21:47They don't try.
00:21:48And even my friend Scott Galloway falls into this a little bit when he says, oh, the daughters
00:21:57are a pen or a lawyer, and then the guy's in the basement vaping and playing video games
00:22:01or whatever.
00:22:02There's just this way of talking about young men that really suggests that they're the
00:22:06problem rather than looking at the kind of systems around them.
00:22:10And I will just say, given the young men I know who listen to you and to others, that
00:22:14this hunger just for honest disagreement, good faith engagement around the problem is huge.
00:22:21And so I do think we have to set the table in a way that allows us to do the work.
00:22:26So cultural stuffs both before and after the policy.
00:22:30I get what you mean.
00:22:31I think the challenge that you have when speaking to men about the balance between ambition and
00:22:36compassion.
00:22:36I know you can be more, but you are enough already.
00:22:39We need to do things to help you, but you also don't want to be a victim.
00:22:43Especially for men, it comes into contact inside of their minds because nobody wants to feel
00:22:48like they're not doing it on their own, especially if you're a guy.
00:22:51Where's the heroism in that?
00:22:52And I think what Scott's sort of trying to point the finger at there is he's saying you
00:22:58need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
00:23:00Right.
00:23:01And for many men, that is true.
00:23:03I had this idea earlier this year called advice hyper-responders.
00:23:07So advice doesn't distribute evenly like medicine.
00:23:11It distributes like alcohol.
00:23:12The people that are already drunk on it take too much when the people who need to loosen
00:23:16up don't have a sick.
00:23:17I think you've talked about this in the context of #MeToo, haven't you?
00:23:19Yes, exactly.
00:23:20The guys that are told that they shouldn't be pushy with women, the nervous ones take
00:23:24it to heart and the dudes that were blowing through boundaries just disregarded entirely.
00:23:29A person who is already loading too much responsibility and working too hard, he has just worked harder
00:23:36and goes, I knew that I wasn't working hard enough.
00:23:38I must push more.
00:23:40Whereas the guy that is laying on the couch, and there is a huge, what is it, 14 million
00:23:44men who are...
00:23:46Not in education, employment, or training.
00:23:47Yeah, exactly.
00:23:48Nicholas...
00:23:49Eberstadt.
00:23:50Eberstadt.
00:23:51Eberstadt.
00:23:54Eberstadt.
00:23:54Yeah, he corrected me.
00:23:55Really?
00:23:56Yeah.
00:23:56God, I've been getting it wrong for years.
00:23:57It's fine.
00:23:59Look, you're right that we've gone through this period of informing men of how to be men
00:24:05by telling them everything that they shouldn't do.
00:24:09That's right.
00:24:09A long list of don'ts.
00:24:10Yeah, it doesn't inform what you should actually move toward.
00:24:13And the vacancy is hugely detrimental.
00:24:15And if you're going to complain about what men are doing, but only tell them what they
00:24:21shouldn't be doing without a replacement, you can't complain when people step in and fill
00:24:26that gap, whether you don't like Rogan or me or Peterson or Tate or Nick Fuentes or fucking
00:24:32Myron or whoever, whoever it is that you do or don't like, whoever is or is not unspeakable.
00:24:36If you don't like Aragon from fucking Lord of the Rings, like if there's a vacuum that
00:24:41will get sucked in because there's a market to speak to people.
00:24:44And if nothing else, even if people aren't speaking to it, if you don't service the market,
00:24:49someone will reverse engineer another message to become the thing that they're missing.
00:24:53Like if you can't eat food, you'll eat tree bark instead because it's the closest thing
00:24:56that's approximating food.
00:24:58Yeah.
00:24:58So there's a certain naivety in thinking that we don't have to answer the question, what
00:25:02does it mean to be a man?
00:25:03Correct.
00:25:04Because every culture has had to answer that question.
00:25:06And so the question is not, is there going to be a question?
00:25:11It's who's giving the answer.
00:25:13And if you don't like the answers, as you say, that some of the men are getting, then what's
00:25:16the alternative?
00:25:17And so you can't just vacate the ground and then complain.
00:25:21You can't give up the ground and then complain that somebody else takes it.
00:25:24And that's exactly what's happened.
00:25:25Mainstream culture just basically gave up the ground and said, we're only going to talk about
00:25:29masculinity if we put the prefix toxic in front of it.
00:25:32In fact, you can't even really use the word masculinity now with young men because it codes
00:25:40so left.
00:25:40It codes the left because it's come with the modifier toxic.
00:25:43Even if you use it as just on its own.
00:25:47Even only, yeah, so what young men have heard, they've only heard it in that context now.
00:25:51And so you've got to, even the words really count here in terms of which, how does it signal?
00:25:56And it's really interesting to me that the word masculinity itself now to a lot of young
00:26:00men, they've only heard that coming out of the males of people who are about to say something
00:26:04bad about it.
00:26:05Right.
00:26:05And sometimes they'll say, all they'll say healthy masculinity, right?
00:26:10Implying, of course, against unhealthy.
00:26:12That normal masculinity without the modifier is unhealthy.
00:26:15Just don't hear it the other way around.
00:26:16Right.
00:26:16And so they know what's coming when you hear you talk that way.
00:26:20And I do think you're right that there's this huge cultural vacuum.
00:26:23I want to come back to something you said a minute ago, which is like, and I struggle with
00:26:28this a bit in my own work and in some of the work that policymakers are doing, which is
00:26:33you don't want to say to young men, especially, we're here to help you.
00:26:37Poor you, right?
00:26:39Look at you struggling.
00:26:40Poor you.
00:26:40What we want to say is we need you.
00:26:44That's the message I think most young men need is we need you.
00:26:47Society still needs you.
00:26:49The tribe still needs you.
00:26:49Your family still needs you.
00:26:50Your kids, for the love of God, definitely still need you.
00:26:54We need you.
00:26:56And we also need you in these service offerings.
00:26:58I wrote a thing with Robert Putnam in the Times last year talking about the boy crisis of the
00:27:02early 20th century and how all these civic organizations, boy scouts, boys and girls clubs,
00:27:07big brothers, big sisters were created almost overnight to respond to what was happening
00:27:12with boys in the cities after urbanization.
00:27:15They were staffed by men.
00:27:16There were four boys and there was a huge civic response, but it took men to do it.
00:27:21Whereas all of the youth serving organizations now have way more women volunteers than male
00:27:26volunteers.
00:27:27And of course, I'm not blaming the women who are stepping up to do that work.
00:27:31God bless them.
00:27:32But I am saying if you want to serve boys and young men, you better have some men too.
00:27:37But our men hearing that message, we need you, not despite being men, not as a volunteer,
00:27:43but as a man.
00:27:44We need men, right?
00:27:46It's just not a message.
00:27:46Because you're good.
00:27:47Because you have something to add.
00:27:49Yes, your masculinity, and I've used the word again, your manhood, right?
00:27:55Well, basically we want you because you're a man, not despite being a man.
00:27:59We see you being a man as a feature, not a bug.
00:28:03And I just don't think enough men have colored that.
00:28:05Well, even that, right, the idea of duty, of almost like service turns very quickly into
00:28:14obligation isn't nasty enough of a word that, well, I mean, you know, you should go and
00:28:22do this, as opposed to this is a noble pursuit for you to try and pass on good things and
00:28:27good advice to the next generation of young men.
00:28:30Right.
00:28:30So do we need new language to talk about gender issues then?
00:28:34Femininity, is that also a difficult one to talk about?
00:28:37No, I mean, femininity is hard.
00:28:39I mean, feminism has become quite fraught.
00:28:41Femininity, actually, I would very rarely hear being spoken about other than anybody from
00:28:46the right.
00:28:47Femininity would be pushed as part of a sort of sundress and baking tradwife dream.
00:28:53I don't hear many people from the left talking about it because it's not something to be
00:28:57pedestalized.
00:28:58I would hear masculinity talked about primarily from the left as a cudgel to beat men with,
00:29:04usually with some sort of modifier of toxic or whatever.
00:29:08So yeah, and feminism as well.
00:29:11Manosphere, unfortunately.
00:29:13Well, it was very quickly kind of, feminism was something that previously in the past,
00:29:20I think a lot of people think was pretty...
00:29:23It was a gender equality claim.
00:29:24Yeah, very quickly moved into something else.
00:29:27Actually, it gets increasingly quickly moved into something else when I learn about some
00:29:32of the factions that sort of birthed out of feminism at the very beginning.
00:29:35I was learning about this yesterday.
00:29:36But the manosphere was used to describe a group of people, not necessarily a movement or an
00:29:42ideology.
00:29:43A group of people happened to all agree about it.
00:29:45So maybe the manosphere was never going to be it.
00:29:46I've given you my bit about the three waves of the manosphere, right?
00:29:49It was first wave, which is pick apart your three.
00:29:51Second wave, which was red pill.
00:29:52And then third wave, which originally I was going to say was the gentle manosphere.
00:29:55But I actually think is lux maxing.
00:29:58I think that is going to be the third wave.
00:30:00What?
00:30:01Lux maxing.
00:30:01You think that's the third wave?
00:30:02So here's my theory about lux maxing.
00:30:06Most of the lux maxing guys, if it sticks, because it's only been around for six months,
00:30:11if it sticks and it becomes even more ascendant, and it might do because it's really memeable.
00:30:15If it stays, what it will create is basically a sexier version of the black pill and MGTOW.
00:30:24So it'll be men going their own way.
00:30:26If you look at what the men are coding for, presenting for, it's not for women.
00:30:33They don't care about women all that much at all.
00:30:35They care in as much as women can get them a claim in the eyes of other men.
00:30:39But it is basically, formidable is what they're signaling, height, unbelievably masculinized
00:30:47faces, which if you look at the evidence, most women prefer an either average in terms of
00:30:53masculinization or a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body.
00:30:56That's what they find most attractive.
00:30:58But men think about GigaChad.
00:31:00They think about these protruding cheekbones, insane drawer.
00:31:03Yeah.
00:31:03The mandible.
00:31:04They have that.
00:31:04People put mewing.
00:31:06Mewing.
00:31:06I learned about that the other day.
00:31:08Pushing their tongue into the roof of the mouth.
00:31:09Yeah.
00:31:10Why do they do that?
00:31:11It's to try and create a tighter jawline.
00:31:13You're doing it.
00:31:14Am I doing it?
00:31:15Yeah.
00:31:15You look like a GigaChad.
00:31:16You look like a twat.
00:31:18I look like a twat.
00:31:20Yeah, you do look like a twat.
00:31:22Look, a lot of the most extreme version of male lux maxing basically is a male-to-male
00:31:28transsexual operation.
00:31:30It is taking a man and trying to turn up the caricature.
00:31:34So my thinking about this, if it sticks, what it will be is basically disregard women and
00:31:42just focus on mogging, which is male-to-male intersexual competition.
00:31:47It's trying to be as formidable as possible.
00:31:48Now, you saw this with Ziz 15 years ago in 2010, but he was still obviously very female
00:31:55attraction coded.
00:31:57It was a much more kind of holistic, broey version of this.
00:31:59It was way less autistic.
00:32:01And he had this great line, which was disregard women, acquire dance moves.
00:32:06But it was done in a lol pal kind of way.
00:32:09Whereas this is, this to me feels like genuine disregard of we're not bothered about mating.
00:32:15We're not bothered about getting women.
00:32:16We're not bothered about really anything other than male-to-male intersexual competition.
00:32:20And if that sticks, it's going to become very insular.
00:32:23Well, it won't stick, will it?
00:32:25I mean, the idea that these, these guys are hammering their faces or breaking their bones
00:32:30or doing the thing you just, what I just tried to do, kind of mewing.
00:32:34Yeah, it worked.
00:32:35And they're not interested in women.
00:32:36No, I don't, I think we'll go.
00:32:40Do you see Steven Colbert just did a thing on lux maxing?
00:32:43It's from a very feminist perspective.
00:32:46It's funny as you can imagine, but the whole thing about it.
00:32:48It's worth, it's just worth watching because he goes into it.
00:32:51But I think I just, again, I think I don't want to be empirical about this, but like how
00:32:56many men are we talking about?
00:32:58Like, is it, how long will this last?
00:33:00Will it, will it last?
00:33:01Will it go?
00:33:01Is this the start of a, you know, decades long shift in the gender tectonics or is it just
00:33:07another decades long, but it could stick about for a while and it would definitely put things
00:33:11on the back foot because it's going to be less.
00:33:14I just, I see that, I see it breaking through, I hear people talking about it.
00:33:16I'm not saying it's not happening.
00:33:17And actually we're doing some work on growing issues around body dysmorphia and so on.
00:33:23Which is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next decade.
00:33:26Yeah, I've seen that stat.
00:33:28I, I don't know if that's true or not, but I just always worry about those lines being
00:33:33projected forward, but anyway, it's a real thing.
00:33:35And what I think it speaks to is, I do think I'm lying behind all of these trends, right?
00:33:42Whatever the thing is now, what it will be before is what we're talking about a moment
00:33:45ago was just this guy, John Della Volpe, I don't know if you know him, Polster.
00:33:49He wrote this really nice piece a few months ago where he talked about masculinity vertigo.
00:33:54And which it says basically what's happening to young men is that I call it pinball, but
00:33:59same idea, which is on Monday, what you're being told is the problem is that you're not
00:34:04masculine enough, right?
00:34:05You need to work out more, eat more protein, looks max, be more dominant, et cetera, right?
00:34:11You need to, you need to man up and be more masculine.
00:34:13But the next day, what you're being told is you're too masculine.
00:34:18You need to cry more and eat more salad and go to therapy more and like find your feminine
00:34:24side.
00:34:24And then on Wednesday, you're back to the, so it's just become this very contested and
00:34:27kind of difficult thing right now in a way that just wasn't before.
00:34:31And into that, you'll get looks maxing or you'll get whatever bodies just more fearful.
00:34:35Whatever moral panic people want to put into it, they will.
00:34:40But behind it, what I actually see is just a bunch of men, especially young men, honestly,
00:34:46just trying to figure this out and to be good people and to be good dads and good friends
00:34:52and have a good life.
00:34:53And to matter.
00:34:54And definitely to matter.
00:34:55They want to be wanted.
00:34:56They want to belong.
00:34:57Well, everybody, I mean, like not being needed is fatal to the human condition.
00:35:01But what was that line?
00:35:02You know, I went and searched it.
00:35:03I went and searched for the original source of that line that you gave me two episodes
00:35:08ago, maybe even our first ever episode.
00:35:10The modern family is a myth that makes men tolerably useful.
00:35:17At least one that at least makes men tolerably useful.
00:35:20Jeffrey Dentsch.
00:35:21Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:22And it's actually this good opportunity to say that masculinity, manhood, whatever your
00:35:28words want to look, is always more socially constructed.
00:35:31It's a cultural construct.
00:35:33Same with fatherhood, right?
00:35:35Margaret Mead talked about the invention of fatherhood.
00:35:38Fatherhood is a social invention.
00:35:39And it is just true that the roles, the structures, the scaffolding, the norms, the messages from
00:35:46society, like we have to make men, basically.
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00:37:06This is what I fought Louis about.
00:37:08He pushed back against the idea that women are born with value, men need to create it.
00:37:15And well, what value are men born with?
00:37:19Women have this unbelievable capacity to make the next generation.
00:37:23What do men have?
00:37:25What are they born with?
00:37:26Not in the same way.
00:37:28And look around the animal kingdom, and every man needs to, every male needs to construct
00:37:32himself into something useful in order to matter and be a part of it.
00:37:36And is that a bad thing?
00:37:38Is that part of the drive for men to sort of push for mastery and conquer and progress
00:37:44and improvement?
00:37:45I think that's something that you have the choice between men that are driven or men that
00:37:49are useless.
00:37:49I'd much prefer the driven men.
00:37:51Obviously, that can overshoot and turn into very squirrelly outcomes where they become
00:37:55tyrants or scammers or whatever, because that's the same drive just turned up in the wrong
00:38:00direction.
00:38:01They can be lotharios and they can play the field in a way that really hurts people.
00:38:06But yeah, driven by what, isn't it?
00:38:09See that word driven is really sitting with me, interestingly, because what you actually
00:38:15feel is like you belong, you're connected, you're needed, you have a role, you have a
00:38:20purpose.
00:38:20And so sure, if that's what we're talking about.
00:38:24And that has to be constructed a lot more.
00:38:26I mean, I think Mead's right.
00:38:28And you've had animation on talking about the birth, how we invented fatherhood to survive
00:38:34as a species, right?
00:38:35Because babies heads got too big and women had the choice between being snapped in half
00:38:39or having a husband that would care.
00:38:40Right.
00:38:40That's basically right.
00:38:41That's a good summary of the work.
00:38:43And so it's just true.
00:38:45And I just think it's incredibly naive for anybody to just assume that we can just get
00:38:50to some androgynous future and that we don't have to keep doing the hard work of making
00:38:56sure that there is a cultural message to men.
00:38:57All right, we need you.
00:38:58We need you to do this.
00:38:59We need you to not do that.
00:39:00Sure.
00:39:01But this is why our tribe, the tribe still needs you.
00:39:04There's this, there are these cave paintings from, they're in Northern Italy, I think,
00:39:08Rameggia.
00:39:09And they're famous because they're some of the oldest, or if not the oldest cave paintings
00:39:13that have ever been found.
00:39:14And the famous ones are the ones where there's kind of very violent, there's kind of stabbing
00:39:18and spearing and stuff like that.
00:39:19But the most haunting one is actually of a group, clearly the tribe, and then another
00:39:25figure who's moving away from them.
00:39:27And the interpretation of that is an ostracism.
00:39:29Yeah, I've heard about this.
00:39:30This person has been expelled by the tribe and to actually, yeah, because the tribe's
00:39:34saying, we don't want you anymore.
00:39:36I'm spitting you out.
00:39:36We don't need you.
00:39:37And in fact, you're kind of, you're worse.
00:39:39So we're going to, now we'd probably incarcerate, but ostracize someone.
00:39:44There was social death and then very often kind of physical death too.
00:39:47So this has been, this is not a new thought about how do we kind of make sure that the
00:39:51tribe needs you.
00:39:52That's true.
00:39:52But when you unmask ostracize an entire sex, all of them feel like they're being pushed
00:39:58out of the tribe.
00:39:59If you do that.
00:40:00Yeah.
00:40:00And so the message that I think too many young men have got is that we got it from here, boys,
00:40:06right?
00:40:06Thanks for the last X thousand years.
00:40:09Don't need you anymore.
00:40:10We got it from here.
00:40:11Or get on board the future is female train, right?
00:40:15That is a fatally flawed message.
00:40:17And I actually don't think if you get away from the culture war, it is not overwhelming
00:40:22majority of people think, right?
00:40:24Most people think moms and dads are a bit different and that's cool.
00:40:27Most people think men and women bring some complimentary skills, right?
00:40:31That's the whole argument for DEI, right?
00:40:34Is that you want a mix of skills.
00:40:35You want a mix of backgrounds, right?
00:40:37And so most people get that.
00:40:38If you get away from the culture war, most people believe all this stuff.
00:40:41I think that most people believe to one degree or another that different groups are different.
00:40:45But when you start to create a value stack based on who is more or less worthy around
00:40:51that, it's no longer we bring complimentary or different skills to the table and therefore
00:40:57everybody should have a seat.
00:40:58It is you and your particular skill set are surplus requirements or actively negative or
00:41:07tyrannical in some sort of a way.
00:41:09Therefore you should change.
00:41:12That seems to be the message.
00:41:14That's right.
00:41:14And then, then no surprise that then people will lean into the identity, right?
00:41:18If you really want someone to lean hard into an identity, all you have to do is threaten
00:41:23it and that will be the result.
00:41:26And I think we've seen some of that.
00:41:27But of course, I don't think that the answer is to go back to a more kind of reactionary
00:41:33kind of conservative view about the role of men and women or to introduce some kind of
00:41:37gender, bring back gender inequality in order to resupply men with their purpose.
00:41:42That's not the answer either.
00:41:44And it's also not what most people want.
00:41:45I mean, we're about to publish some work showing that we've just seen the biggest increase
00:41:49in amount of hands-on fathering that we've seen for probably half a century.
00:41:52So American dads are just doing more.
00:41:54Wasn't it that millennial fathers spend as much time with their kids as Silent Generation
00:42:04or Baby Boomer mothers?
00:42:04That's exactly right.
00:42:05Yeah.
00:42:06The amount of direct child, it gets complicated because it's secondary and primary childcare,
00:42:11but the amount of primary childcare being done by dads now is as high as was being done by
00:42:17mums in 1985.
00:42:19And of course, mums are doing even more.
00:42:21The whole fucking deadbeat dad thing.
00:42:22Yeah.
00:42:23I mean, this is a bit of a rant coming now because I think the whole deficit framing
00:42:29around fatherhood and dads, either deadbeat or do-first is really upsetting me.
00:42:35And I think partly as a dad.
00:42:37And one of the things that upsets me in here, I'm going to really take aim at some folks
00:42:40on the left, is this idea I just exposed to again recently, that if you look at full-time
00:42:45mothers and full-time fathers, so working full-time in the labor market, that mums are
00:42:51doing 25 to 30% more of the housework and childcare, right?
00:42:55That's the fact that's out there.
00:42:56There's a book by Eve Rodsky called Fair Play.
00:42:59Is this the second shift?
00:43:01And then there's the idea of the second shift.
00:43:02Yeah.
00:43:02Women working the double shift, et cetera.
00:43:04And I just saw again, a woman's group just kind of put out same thing.
00:43:08And the stat, this is a good example of a category of statistics that feel true, go with your
00:43:17intuition, but on close examination collapse, but they're not actually false.
00:43:22So it is true that men and women living together with kids, both working quotes full-time, she's
00:43:30doing more of the housework and the childcare than he is.
00:43:32But what they've done is defined full-time as 35 hours or more.
00:43:37He is doing more hours.
00:43:39So full-time working dads are doing more hours than full-time working mums.
00:43:43And if you add it all up, it's about six, 60 hours a week each.
00:43:49It is to quote Suzanne Bianchi from a paper for like 20 years ago, she describes the contributions
00:43:56of mothers and fathers in those households as quote, amazingly similar.
00:43:59And that remains true to this day.
00:44:01So dads are doing about eight hours more paid work a week and mums are doing about
00:44:07eight hours more unpaid work a week.
00:44:09And they're doing exactly the same amount of work.
00:44:11They are putting in the same work week, but this idea somehow that like dads aren't doing
00:44:16their, they're not pulling their share.
00:44:18They're not doing it's just untrue.
00:44:20And every time I see that it infuriates me as a dad and on behalf of dads and also just
00:44:26a colossally terrible social science.
00:44:29And it's going to be blown up within three minutes by anybody that wants to destroy it.
00:44:34And so it's actually not even in the interest of the women's groups to put out this bad
00:44:38social science because it will get destroyed.
00:44:40I understand what you mean, but the problem is the more simple headline always wins.
00:44:46In our current age, this is an iron law.
00:44:49The simplest headline always wins.
00:44:52I don't think that's true anymore because we'll come here and talk about it.
00:44:56And your audience isn't going to listen to it.
00:44:58And they might not have read that headline.
00:45:01And so I think, I actually think you're being modest.
00:45:05Maybe, maybe, but okay.
00:45:06But I mean, I'm one guy, I'm one guy like tossing a fucking droplet of water into it.
00:45:11People want to know the truth.
00:45:14And people are actually a little bit sick of this thing going.
00:45:18Now, of course, some people just want a stat that goes with their priors and that they can
00:45:22say over dinner and say, did you know that women do 30% more of the housework, even when
00:45:26they both work full time, right?
00:45:28Good that, but then I say, and then I come on and say, yeah, but if
00:45:31you look at the whole thing, they're actually doing the same amount.
00:45:34It's a kind of, I actually think enough people listening to you and to others.
00:45:38I want to give you some credit here, Chris.
00:45:41I think that one of the reasons you're successful is because you are curious and you do have
00:45:49good faith discussions about these issues, right?
00:45:52So, and you will change your mind about things.
00:45:54And I actually think the hunger, especially among young people for that is huge.
00:46:00And I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of podcasters are actually, have a lot
00:46:03more credibility than you think.
00:46:05And I actually really like, one of the things I like listening to you is this moment.
00:46:10And we may have had this moment ourselves when we first spoke, but I love this moment.
00:46:13I've heard this a few times recently where you get this expert comes on, right?
00:46:16On whatever it is, like something.
00:46:18And they get, and they don't know who you are, right?
00:46:21They're an academic and they've been told by their PR company.
00:46:23This is great.
00:46:23He has a huge platform and maybe they haven't done the time, right?
00:46:26And you've had it with my friend, Melissa Carney.
00:46:29You've had it with other people where they get about 10 minutes into the interview and
00:46:33you're quoting these papers at them or you're saying, yeah, I had them on or whatever.
00:46:37And they go, what?
00:46:39And actually one of them, I think actually said out loud, she said, God, you really know
00:46:42about this, right?
00:46:43I should have prepared better.
00:46:45Yes.
00:46:45You can see this kind of shot because they look at you, they look at the vibe, they look
00:46:48at the thing and they kind of go into it and they go, wait, what?
00:46:51Wait, what?
00:46:52I think it's a credit to you.
00:46:54And I think it does make you somewhat different to many of the other people in the so-called
00:46:58manosphere, because I do think that even when I disagree with you or disagree with some
00:47:03folks you've had on, I think there is an attention there to trying to get this right.
00:47:09The only thing I'd say on the household thing, and this is actually something that I wanted
00:47:12to bring up with you because it's bugged me a couple of times in some of the conversations
00:47:17you've had.
00:47:17So I think it's just us, right?
00:47:19So that's a spoonful of sugar to get the medicine down.
00:47:22Yeah, the trouble is the shit sandwich doesn't work anymore because everyone knows what's
00:47:25coming, right?
00:47:26Although some of the young people are saying, no, still give me the nice thing.
00:47:28I know there's something bad coming, but I still want the nice thing first.
00:47:30I know, it worked.
00:47:31I will take, the only child in me will take a shameless compliment.
00:47:35I mean, it helps, right?
00:47:37But, and I don't know how you think about this, but I've also noticed just on my rant about
00:47:42the anti-dad rhetoric of the left.
00:47:45But I've also kind of noticed just in a lot of these conversations, there's this kind of
00:47:50implied return to a world where the dad is the head of the household, where we're going
00:47:58to reassert this idea of kind of gender inequality within the household.
00:48:01And I wish I could remember who it was, but you had somebody on-
00:48:03Arthur Brooks.
00:48:04CEO, COO.
00:48:05Yeah, someone said that the mom, she's got a hugely important role.
00:48:11I'm not saying, the mom's like the COO of the household, right?
00:48:15And somebody else will say like, men need to lead their families, right?
00:48:18But the COO one really stuck with me, right?
00:48:20Because like, okay, so she's COO.
00:48:22Who's the dad again?
00:48:24He's CEO.
00:48:25Okay, so what you've just done there is you said, we're going to go back in a way to a
00:48:31world where there was this implied gender inequality within the household.
00:48:35Do you think that there's an inequality between CEO and COO when it comes to the household?
00:48:40I think there's an, if you're going to use that as an analogy, right?
00:48:43The CEO is the boss of the company, right?
00:48:46And the COO reports to the CEO.
00:48:48Interesting, I think, so look, I think it was Arthur Brooks.
00:48:51Have you got any more to say on that, on why you had an issue with it?
00:48:54That framing?
00:48:56Just because of that framing, but I'm hearing it elsewhere generally.
00:48:59More on the sort of conservative side of this argument.
00:49:02And it's, here's what I don't like.
00:49:04It's very rarely stated explicitly.
00:49:06The explicit version of it would be, we need to get back to stable families and families
00:49:11where men feel a sense of purpose.
00:49:12And so we need to go back to families where he is the head of the household.
00:49:16He is the ultimate decision maker.
00:49:18He is the leader of the family, whatever language you want to use, which, and therefore women
00:49:23are going to have to kind of recognize that they are in the end subordinate.
00:49:28Yes.
00:49:28What do you think about the feminization of society?
00:49:30Has there been a feminization of society?
00:49:34Helen Andrews thought so.
00:49:35Yes, I know.
00:49:36But, well, it's interesting, I mean, Helen Andrews, have you had her on by the way?
00:49:41No, she didn't, she, I can't get her on.
00:49:43I don't know what she thinks of me or the show, but we can't get her on.
00:49:47Yeah, I mean, I did, it was one of those things where I tried to ignore it because it was a
00:49:50culture war thing, right?
00:49:51Everyone's talking about this great feminization piece that she wrote.
00:49:54In the end, I just did something on my own sub stack about it.
00:49:57Where I don't see, the field she talks about law, et cetera, they only just approach 50/50,
00:50:07right, for one thing.
00:50:09And so I just don't see the evidence empirically that that's driving any of the changes in those
00:50:13fields.
00:50:14What upset me most about it was there are some fields that are being quite strongly feminized,
00:50:18mental health care, psychology, social work, and K-12 education.
00:50:22There was no mention of that.
00:50:23And so actually I'm very worried about the real feminization problem, which is a lot of
00:50:27these occupations are skewing more and more female over time.
00:50:30That has implications for the people in those professions, the kids being served or the
00:50:34patients.
00:50:34But also for men, like last, as we record this, the last jobs report showed that three times
00:50:40as many women had gone into the labor force as men.
00:50:42Now it was just one month, we'd be careful about that.
00:50:44And the reason was healthcare jobs.
00:50:46Right.
00:50:47Right.
00:50:47And so again, one of my differences with some of the folks on the right, political right,
00:50:51is that I'm saying, look, this is the jobs are going to be coming from areas like healthcare,
00:50:55et cetera.
00:50:55And so we have got to get more men into them.
00:50:57Especially with AI.
00:50:58Yeah.
00:50:58And they're like, no, no, those aren't jobs for men.
00:51:00We need to get men into men's jobs, into factories and mines and stuff like that.
00:51:04I'm like, okay, good luck with completely reordering the economy again to make that happen.
00:51:09But in the meantime, I see where the jobs are actually coming from.
00:51:12And so I think that's a real problem.
00:51:14I think that the, the idea that, you know, the legal profession has somehow become less
00:51:18good because women are in it.
00:51:19I just don't think so.
00:51:20The legal profession is not going to be around for that much longer than certainly not in
00:51:22its current situation.
00:51:23AI is better than men and women.
00:51:25So gender becomes irrelevant.
00:51:26Funny.
00:51:28What do you think about the feminism movement at the moment?
00:51:31I spend all of my time thinking about this through the lens of what's happening to boys
00:51:38and men.
00:51:39So even feminism for me is a reflection of how is it going to impact the thing that I
00:51:44care about most.
00:51:45Not that I don't care about women, but again, like I've got my, I've got my priorities.
00:51:49What's the current status of the feminism movement?
00:51:53How do you think of it when you come to think about its factions?
00:51:56It's very hard for me to answer that because I see it through the lens that I approach.
00:51:59And I am at quite a lot of meetings and conferences stuff now, you know, which would be described
00:52:03as feminist meetings.
00:52:06And I would say that slowly but surely the women's movement or feminist movement is coming
00:52:12to realize that demonizing or dismissing men is not a good strategy.
00:52:17It's happening patchily and slowly but surely, but it is happening.
00:52:22I'm seeing a lot of leaders in those spaces saying, okay, we have got to do better about
00:52:28the boys and the men.
00:52:29Now you might say, well, they're only doing it for tactical reasons or political reasons.
00:52:32And they will very often say, because it's good for women, right?
00:52:35And so I have this interesting disagreement with them and I'm very open about this.
00:52:37They say we should care about boys and men because we care about women.
00:52:40And I'm saying we should care about boys and men.
00:52:41I just end the sentence earlier than you, right?
00:52:44In the same way that we don't say we should care about women because it's good for the
00:52:48economy or good for men, right?
00:52:50I just, I think we should care about boys and men more generally.
00:52:53I've had to do that too.
00:52:54I had this piece about zero-sum empathy and I tried to legitimize the reason, there was
00:53:03a lot of things and it wasn't just this, but I remember I sort of tossed this coin into
00:53:07the pool that I knew would be effective, which was if you don't care about boys and men
00:53:15falling behind and also whine about there being no good men to date, that is the equivalent
00:53:20of sort of mating logic seppuku that you are creating the precise dearth of eligible partners
00:53:26that you say that you and your daughters and your friends and your sisters are looking for.
00:53:30Like if you're not prepared to help boys and men, you can't go, where are all the good men
00:53:35at?
00:53:36Because that's precisely what is causing the lack of eligible partners that you're talking
00:53:40about.
00:53:40But I didn't want to have to couch good men are good in as much as they can be of service
00:53:46to you as a woman.
00:53:48It's just that we should care about the falling behind of any group.
00:53:52We should care about human flourishing, right?
00:53:53If there's a group in society that aren't doing well, then we should care about them.
00:53:57I just think that's just, for me, it's just a straightforward moral proposition.
00:54:01Now I'm obviously different groups of different agendas, right?
00:54:06And so if you care about this group or that issue because it affects the other issue, I'm
00:54:11fine with that.
00:54:12So people kind of say like Melinda French Gates has supported me and Gary Barker because it's
00:54:18part of a gender equality thing, right?
00:54:20And she's very clear.
00:54:20She says it's not good for women and girls if boys and men are struggling, right?
00:54:25Now you might say, okay.
00:54:27So this is where the kind of, again, the reactionaries will be like, oh, of course she has to couch
00:54:30it as that.
00:54:31And it's kind of, I'm like, guys, for the love of God, she is a global feminist.
00:54:34Like, what do you want, right?
00:54:35And she's supporting my work.
00:54:36She's supporting boys and men's work.
00:54:39Like, no, no, no.
00:54:40They're like, they're the purists.
00:54:41They're the ones that are saying, no, no, no.
00:54:42She has to completely come over to our side.
00:54:44I'm like, guys, take a win, right?
00:54:45Of course, as a feminist, she says she's going to couch it that way, right?
00:54:49That's okay.
00:54:50Do you find yourself doing the same thing?
00:54:53Couching it that way? No.
00:54:55No, I don't.
00:54:56I do it openly with Melinda and with others.
00:54:58I was at a Reykjavik forum with some of the leading women.
00:55:02I'm just like, no, my position and the position of the American Institute for Boys and Men
00:55:06is just very straightforward.
00:55:07Like, we care about boys and men doing better and flourishing, right?
00:55:09We just care about that, period.
00:55:10Now, is that also good for the economy?
00:55:13Is it good for families?
00:55:14Is it good for women?
00:55:15Is it good for...
00:55:16Yes, yes, of course, yes.
00:55:17Right?
00:55:18In the same way that the Women's Services Prevention Initiative, their tagline is when women are
00:55:22healthy, communities thrive.
00:55:24I'm like, true.
00:55:25Also true that when men are healthy, communities thrive.
00:55:28But you don't have to condition it.
00:55:30I honestly think there's a deeper point there, which is men in particular, they kind of see
00:55:36the conditioning coming.
00:55:37You see it like, oh, well, if there's something bad happens, like men do bad thing, A.
00:55:44Oh, now we should care about boys and men.
00:55:46And they see that conditionality.
00:55:48They see, oh, you only care about me if X, if I do something bad or something bad happens.
00:55:53And what they actually need to hear is, no, dude, we just care about you.
00:55:56Yeah.
00:55:56What do you make of the current state of mating and dating?
00:56:00Well, as a 56-year-old man who's been married for almost my entire adult life, my...
00:56:05Your expert subject.
00:56:06Fortunately, I have three sons in their 20s at various stages, that helps.
00:56:11And a bunch of younger friends.
00:56:14I mean, it comes back to bits of this politicization point, which is I worry that the message that
00:56:23young women are getting from the left is life's really tough for women now.
00:56:29And it's the fault of all those men and the patriarchy.
00:56:32And the message that young men are getting from the right is life's pretty tough for young
00:56:37men right now.
00:56:37And it's the fault of all those woke feminists and those women.
00:56:41So they're being encouraged, respectively, to blame each other for their real problems.
00:56:46That is a colossal waste of political energy and not true.
00:56:50It's also creating some difficulties, I think, around dating, mating, et cetera, because we
00:56:54do see now that that political polarization is affecting dating and mating.
00:56:59I worry a lot, and Dan Cox has written for us on this, that you see this decline in dating
00:57:04in high school and among young adults.
00:57:06I think that's a huge problem because that's where you develop the relational skills, the
00:57:10ability to endure and deliver rejection gracefully, et cetera.
00:57:14I worry a lot about that.
00:57:16But I also worry that, and maybe this is something we could talk about, that there's something
00:57:21about the marketplace mate value evo psych stuff that I know you're very interested in.
00:57:26I've revised my-- Paul Eastwick has a book out called Bonded by Evolution.
00:57:31Do you know his stuff?
00:57:32I had him on the show.
00:57:33Oh, you did?
00:57:34We had a long debate.
00:57:35Right.
00:57:35And I'm not going full Eastwick on you here.
00:57:37Please don't.
00:57:38But I do find that something-- here's a bit I do like about it, is that if we're serious
00:57:43about thinking about ancestral mating patterns, we do have to take seriously the fact that
00:57:47we didn't live in cities of 10 million people with a phone.
00:57:50That wasn't the marketplace we faced.
00:57:53We were in smaller groups.
00:57:54So maybe you've done this with him, smaller groups.
00:57:56And we would know these people, and they'd come with us.
00:57:59And the whole idea of mate value does shift a little bit over time.
00:58:03And so my middle ground here is that it's clearly insane not to suggest that there isn't
00:58:08something quasi-market or a mate value thing going on.
00:58:12But there's also something quite interesting about this idea that kind of knowing somebody
00:58:17or someone being known by the people among you, that coming socially sanctioned, like
00:58:21someone you meet through the workplace, friend of a friend, et cetera, that's very powerful
00:58:26as opposed to someone you just algorithmically got attached to on an app on the other side
00:58:30of New York.
00:58:30I don't think--
00:58:31That's not how we evolved.
00:58:33I agree.
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00:59:49It's a very sexy argument.
00:59:51And the argument is mate value.
00:59:54He thinks mate value simply doesn't exist.
00:59:56That there is no way that beyond the first look, anybody is more or less preferable than
01:00:02somebody else.
01:00:03That revealed bonded preferences over time end up flattening the mating dynamic down.
01:00:08That tens could get with threes and that threes could get with tens.
01:00:11That wasn't how I read him.
01:00:12I didn't read him that way.
01:00:14I think that's an exaggeration, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
01:00:18I think it just gets flatter.
01:00:21Not that it flattens completely.
01:00:22He said there is no such thing after a couple of meetings, there is literally no such thing
01:00:26as mate value.
01:00:27There is no such thing as a disparity.
01:00:30So, well, he's more of the expert on his work than I am, but I read it as like mate value
01:00:33is a more complicated idea.
01:00:35I would agree with mate value is a more complicated idea.
01:00:38What makes me sort of bristle a little bit or what makes me concerned is if you've got
01:00:47this world that basically flattens, it makes egalitarian the mating market is one way that
01:00:55you could read it.
01:00:56No one's hot.
01:00:57Yeah.
01:00:57But no one's hot and no one's ugly.
01:00:59Yeah.
01:00:59What's the Kurt Vonnegut short story?
01:01:01Harry Bergeron, someone could check this where the minister, do you know the story?
01:01:08No.
01:01:08The ministry for equality levels everybody out, right?
01:01:13And so it's a satire.
01:01:14So it's like, if you're a really good dancer, you have to go wear weights around your feet.
01:01:17If you're beautiful, you have to get it, have plastic surgery to make you less so.
01:01:21And if you're ugly, have plastic surgery to make you more.
01:01:23So the main character story is like, if you're intelligent, if you're high IQ.
01:01:28That's right.
01:01:31Yeah.
01:01:33Harrison Bergeron.
01:01:33Yeah.
01:01:34If you're intelligent, they put a thing in your ear.
01:01:36That's just making a noise all the time to distract you.
01:01:39Yeah.
01:01:39And it's obviously like a kind of a flattening type thing.
01:01:43So look, if the idea is like, there is just no difference in how attractive someone is
01:01:48as a mate to anybody else, I think that's bat shit crazy.
01:01:55But over time, even with the revealed preferences, the revealed value that occurs as you get to
01:02:06know somebody a little bit better, that this is how beautiful elements of someone's personality
01:02:14and the way they hold themselves and their poise and their patience and their regulation
01:02:17and all the rest of it sort of appear over time.
01:02:19I think that denying the fact that there are more and less preferable mates, and this isn't
01:02:26just idiosyncratic, that if you were to take a big broad survey, that many people would
01:02:32rank as more preferable, even if you knew them for four years and more people, other people
01:02:37would rank less preferable, even if you know them for four years.
01:02:39Yeah.
01:02:39My understanding of it, and again, like I'm talking about, we're talking about his work
01:02:42now, but is that over time you learn more about someone.
01:02:46And so more of their kind of different, the different elements of mate value come to the
01:02:50fore, right?
01:02:51So if I just, if you just see me, you don't hear me speak, right?
01:02:54You just see me, maybe I'm mewing.
01:02:55Yep.
01:02:56So I look great.
01:02:57Yes.
01:02:58Right.
01:02:58But then, or I don't, I look, I don't look great.
01:03:02But then we talk for a while and let's say I'm kind or funny, or let's say I'm an asshole,
01:03:08right?
01:03:08That's going to change very significantly, right?
01:03:10And then you see me doing something hard for somebody else, right?
01:03:13You see me taking care of my mom, you see me, you see me working hard at them, right?
01:03:16All these things are adding up.
01:03:17Revealed over time.
01:03:18Yeah.
01:03:19That was the best, that was the best bit of what, of what Paul said.
01:03:21I really, I really thought it was a nice, um, twist on the very shallow, sort of typical
01:03:30understood, and this is the internet interpretation of mate value, right?
01:03:34And what's interesting about this is it's almost exclusively for short-term mating.
01:03:38Absolutely.
01:03:39Almost everything, all of the mating advice is for short-term mating as well.
01:03:42It's not, it's not like, so actually I got into this argument with Shadi Hamid for a piece
01:03:46of the post where he said, are you telling me to settle?
01:03:48Cause I said, we're talking about marriage.
01:03:50And I think the problem with the marketplace idea is that it sort of suggests that it's
01:03:55over once you've mated.
01:03:58But of course, that's just the beginning.
01:04:00And the story you tell about your relationship and the way that the relationship evolves
01:04:06over time within that story you're telling and the way you treat each other as you become
01:04:11different people over the decades, that's the job.
01:04:14And so the other problem with the marketplace is it doesn't capture those.
01:04:18It's about maximizing and you match and so on.
01:04:20Then you cash out.
01:04:21Yeah.
01:04:21It's like, and you've made a great match and that's the solution.
01:04:24No, no, no.
01:04:25And I said this to Shadi and said to others too, he said, sure, you obviously, you know,
01:04:28if you're lucky, you'll fall head over heels in love and it will just be obvious and you'll
01:04:32find somebody, but it is much less about the wife you choose than it is about the husband
01:04:37you become.
01:04:38That's 50 years.
01:04:40Yeah, I think you're right.
01:04:41The EVO script, as Paul said, it's definitely a book of the moment because evolutionary psychology
01:04:48is second only to behavioral genetics as the unspeakable topic, but it's very predictive.
01:04:54And I have a particular bias here because I'm in the city of David Buss and William Costello
01:05:05and they're about as well meaning of a scientist as you're going to get, right?
01:05:08They're not curating their data.
01:05:11They're not trying to push some ideological bent as far as I can see.
01:05:16And they change their minds about stuff too.
01:05:20I've seen David do that all the time.
01:05:21He's moved back and forth between a bunch of different theories, the cornerstones of what
01:05:25it was that he was pushing for a while.
01:05:27But you know, there was another element in that.
01:05:29So there was the mate value doesn't exist.
01:05:31There was a denial of sex differences really in preferences between men and women that they
01:05:37simply are not there.
01:05:39Yeah, which I don't.
01:05:39And I'm like, okay, I'm starting to construct a little bit of a corkboard Sherlock Holmes
01:05:44style thing here.
01:05:45Anyway, okay.
01:05:45So men and dating, some problems, some people have argued that women entering the workforce
01:05:51has caused fertility rates to drop.
01:05:53Yes.
01:05:54What's your perspective there?
01:05:55Didn't you have someone say that?
01:05:57I feel like I've heard someone say that on your...
01:05:59Danny Solakowski definitely pushing back against a lot of what women are doing at the moment.
01:06:05We think she implied it.
01:06:06I don't know whether she's...
01:06:07Yeah, I think she did.
01:06:08I think, and I've definitely heard other people say it, which is this idea.
01:06:11And again, this is a great example of this category of claim that feels intuitive, fits
01:06:19with your priors, and is wrong.
01:06:22And so you just got to, those are the ones that I always wear.
01:06:26So if someone brings a claim to me and I'm like, yeah, that feels true.
01:06:29And as it happens, I was thinking that myself.
01:06:32That's when it was like triple check it because it worries me.
01:06:36And there is this claim that the fertility decline is being caused by the entry of women
01:06:43into the workforce, right?
01:06:43Again, it sounds perfectly plausible, right?
01:06:45Like women are too busy earning to be sprogging, right?
01:06:49Can't do two things at once, et cetera.
01:06:51And so, but you look at the data and you look at from the period from 1975 to 2005, the labor
01:07:01force participation rate of women went up by 20 percentage points.
01:07:05Absolute massive, like that was a huge period of growth.
01:07:08And over the same time period, the total fertility rate went from 1.8 to 2.1, rough, right?
01:07:15Something like that, right?
01:07:16This is just, this is me and Claude figuring this out.
01:07:18So hands above the table, haven't done a peer reviewed academic articles, but, and then the
01:07:22women's labor force participation leveled out.
01:07:25It's basically been pretty flat since, and then it just had a little bit of a spike.
01:07:28Leveled out since when?
01:07:30Since about 2007, 2005, 2007.
01:07:32I mean, just drifting up, so it went, and then like that, right?
01:07:36Unlike in other countries actually, where it continued to go up.
01:07:39And that's when the fertility rate really went down in the US.
01:07:43And so it just, it seems to me there's got to be something else going on here.
01:07:48And the fertility rate comes, I know you're very interested in this, you just had Steven
01:07:51on again, right?
01:07:52The fertility rate conversation is a great example of where people take their priors and
01:07:59explain the fertility rate based on what they already thought, right?
01:08:04And so Jennifer Schuber, who I know, it's a TED Talk, she's got a book, co-authored book
01:08:09Toxic Demography.
01:08:11And her basic conclusion is the thing that's causing the decline in fertility rate is a
01:08:15lack of gender equality, right?
01:08:17Korea, Japan, et cetera, right?
01:08:19Gender equity, right?
01:08:20Right?
01:08:21And that might be true.
01:08:23There's some evidence against it, but there's some evidence for it.
01:08:27And then conservatives will say, the thing that's causing the fertility rate is feminism
01:08:32and the entry of women into the workplace, right?
01:08:34Okay.
01:08:35Again, you can see the arguments, there's evidence for it, and I've just given some evidence
01:08:38against it.
01:08:38And truth is, no one knows.
01:08:40And so it's a really dangerous subject because it is one of those things that we don't know
01:08:46yet.
01:08:46And we should have a lot of humility, by the way, about projecting population trends forward.
01:08:50If we have not learned anything, it is don't take a straight line and project it forward.
01:08:54We don't know what's going to happen, right?
01:08:57So be careful.
01:08:59I would say I'm thinking about the population bomb thing, right?
01:09:04Yeah, of course.
01:09:05But the population bust seems more reliable to be able to predict going forward.
01:09:13But it seemed like that about the population bomb, which is like, wait, more people are
01:09:16going to have more people, which means more people.
01:09:17True.
01:09:19Yeah, maybe.
01:09:19You might be right.
01:09:21So fewer people having fewer people means fewer people.
01:09:22I mean, I'm obviously simplifying it horribly, but like-
01:09:25Pretty accurate.
01:09:26I just don't, now there is a thing, like mechanically.
01:09:30So I will just come out and say, look, I don't think a rapidly declining population is a good
01:09:36thing, right?
01:09:37For some radical.
01:09:38I just don't.
01:09:40But it's very interesting because people, when you actually try and push people on why they
01:09:45think it's a bad thing, you get into all kinds of discussions.
01:09:48And I think people are bringing lots of pride and lots of, they are.
01:09:50I think Jennifer's right about this.
01:09:52There's a lot of morality being brought into this.
01:09:53People bring a lot of ethics.
01:09:54So a lot of very pro-life people, I think if they're honest, are saying, like, we don't
01:09:59like there to be less life because we like life and we want more of it, right?
01:10:04That's a very, like more life is good.
01:10:05Less life is bad.
01:10:07That's a perfectly legitimate religious and ethical position.
01:10:09And it could be for institutional reasons.
01:10:11It could be for fiscal reasons.
01:10:12It could be because it's, or it could be for me, it's more symptomatic.
01:10:15The reason I worry about it more is like, I think if you got to a point where you're significantly
01:10:20below replacement rate and your society is rapidly declining in size, that should be seen
01:10:25as a big flashing signal that all is not well, somehow or other.
01:10:30Now, what's not well, we don't know yet.
01:10:33Okay.
01:10:34Some things that I've thought of to do with this.
01:10:36It seems to me that births just downstream from coupling for a large part.
01:10:42If you look at the number of couples who are together that are together for a while and
01:10:46get married.
01:10:48Well, yeah, it's lots are going to depend on how you define coupling in this example,
01:10:51but yeah.
01:10:52Marriage, married couples.
01:10:53Well, no, because one of the reasons the fertility rates gone down is a decline in teen pregnancy.
01:10:56And most of them were not coupled.
01:10:58It was an accidental pregnancy.
01:10:59Okay.
01:11:01That's interesting.
01:11:01At least from, from, I was speaking to Steven.
01:11:04I actually asked him after we went for dinner last night, I asked him what his thoughts were.
01:11:08And he agrees with you that his whole thing is this vitality curve, which was the most
01:11:11recent episode that I did with him.
01:11:13And that's kind of a measure of the society's forward-lookingness and vitality.
01:11:18And energy.
01:11:18And no, the vitality curve is basically, um, when are people looking to start families?
01:11:25And if you have a graph that's like this and it's the age across the bottom, and if it goes
01:11:29from 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, if it does that, if you're looking to go
01:11:35to the dance with someone and you're looking for another dance partner, it's really easy
01:11:39if everybody is dancing at the same time.
01:11:41Yeah.
01:11:42But if you're 21 looking for a dance partner and this curve is now flatter and longer and
01:11:47shifted, right?
01:11:48Right.
01:11:48Half the people think a dance is five, 10 years from now.
01:11:51Exactly.
01:11:51Exactly.
01:11:53This is his point.
01:11:54And also if you shift it later, there are just some raw physics of the system that come in
01:11:58to sort of squish down what you're able to do.
01:12:00Yeah.
01:12:00If you are cycling through partners, if there's a more permissive culture of casual sex, of
01:12:04moving on, so on and so forth, more options, which means that you don't need to quite invest
01:12:09so much.
01:12:10Um, but his point around the, uh, labor force entry for women thing, the dips that you see
01:12:17in 1970 and then 2007, 2008.
01:12:20What's interesting there is because you now need a two parent income in order to drive
01:12:27the household, people are much more sensitive to economic indicators.
01:12:30And that means that if you have a term, that's why he thinks in 2007, 2008, uh, 2007, 2008,
01:12:37a global financial crisis.
01:12:38So sudden accelerations in the delaying of first births like a ratchet.
01:12:42And as we discussed in our last podcast, once first births move later, the whole starting
01:12:47a family system shifts for everyone.
01:12:50As the vitality curve shows delaying the median age of first birth predictably raises childlessness
01:12:55and the lowest total birth rates.
01:12:56And that goes in line with what you said.
01:12:58There's fewer teen pregnancies, right?
01:13:00If you shift this all rightward, this begins to skew, but his position is that it's a ratchet
01:13:06that it never snaps back because you need to lose a lot of the things that people want.
01:13:13You need to, uh, uh, sequester your independence.
01:13:16You need to do things that makes you feel like you're falling behind.
01:13:20One of the points that my friend who I spoke to, I told you the story about her friend saying
01:13:23she wished that she was with her and she had more going on.
01:13:25She made this point, I wish I'd had a kid during COVID because it wouldn't have felt like I
01:13:31was missing out on anything.
01:13:32Rest of the world's moving forward.
01:13:34And I think that that's a one person microcosm of why, why is it a ratchet?
01:13:39Why does the average age of first motherhood move only to the right and never to the left?
01:13:44Well, because it feels like you're missing out.
01:13:46All of your friends are continuing to do things in the real world and you're not.
01:13:50And he's got this, this line here.
01:13:51Vitality curve shows delaying the median age of first birth predictably raises childlessness
01:13:56and the lowest total birth rates.
01:13:57In that sense, childlessness is largely a timing problem.
01:14:01And so even if women no longer worked, hypothetically, of course, my thesis from data modeling is
01:14:05that birth rates would not fundamentally change unless family formation also happened sooner,
01:14:09which arguably occurred.
01:14:11This is cross-cultural.
01:14:12Economic uncertainty pushes parenthood later across nations, religions, and political systems.
01:14:16It all comes back to timing.
01:14:18P.S. historically, the U.S. managed this better than most countries.
01:14:21Women could work and start families at the same time, although that balance has clearly
01:14:25started to break down since the 2007-2008 crisis.
01:14:28Well, that would be consistent with what we were saying earlier about the need to kind
01:14:32of just economically for boys and for men to do better so that they can actually, we know
01:14:37that particularly in low income areas where men are doing better, the marriage rate is
01:14:39higher.
01:14:40And so I think it's two things.
01:14:42One, one thing I do worry about is the, the bar that you have to clear now before embarking
01:14:49on parenthood is just wildly higher than it used to be.
01:14:52Right.
01:14:53If you've got to have your house.
01:14:54Feels like it's wildly higher.
01:14:55Yeah.
01:14:55And it's just, I think I really, really don't, I really want to stand against that idea.
01:15:01People set the bar so high, how much parenting, how much you could have bought your house,
01:15:04got a career.
01:15:05The number of boxes you're supposed to tick now is terrifying to me.
01:15:08This was the discussion that we had last night, which it doesn't matter where people are.
01:15:15It's where people feel they are compared to where their parents were and where they feel
01:15:20like other people were.
01:15:21It is all through the interpretation.
01:15:24This is, this is like, I can't think of a way to emphasize how much this is the fucking
01:15:29driver of so much.
01:15:31That how much money do I think I need to have?
01:15:34How much do I think I need to be earning?
01:15:36How big do I think my house needs to be?
01:15:38How secure do I think my life needs to be before I can do this thing?
01:15:42And where do I think my parents were at my stage?
01:15:44And where do I think their lifestyle was like?
01:15:46And what do I think that everybody else is doing with their life?
01:15:48And how easy do I think that they have it?
01:15:50Because all of this is being filtered through what we feel like we should have and what
01:15:55we feel like our level of exposure to risk is.
01:15:58And it's not necessarily objective and that.
01:16:02Yeah.
01:16:04And it goes against people and then people come along and say, but that's not true.
01:16:06And here's my chart and here's my data.
01:16:08And like, and you try and argue people out of a feeling, which you can't do, but that
01:16:13feeling of economic, what did you say?
01:16:14Economic precariousness or whatever.
01:16:16It's a challenge, but it may be, maybe I'm going to change my mind about something here
01:16:21because one of the things we do know about men is that becoming a father actually does
01:16:28significantly change their behavior in the world.
01:16:31Right.
01:16:31And not least economically towards themselves, et cetera.
01:16:34And we now know that changes that.
01:16:36Darby Saxby has this book coming out, "Dad Brain" and how can your brain changes as well.
01:16:40And we obviously know this stuff about testosterone, et cetera.
01:16:43Risk taking.
01:16:44Right.
01:16:44Yeah.
01:16:44And so I just, I feel like we actually used to use marriage and fatherhood as a way to
01:16:51kind of help men grow up and yeah, exactly.
01:16:53I just really hate that word.
01:16:55And to say, we have to domesticate men because it sort of feels-
01:16:58Keeping them feral is good.
01:16:59Yeah.
01:17:00It's just like, it's cause the alternative is feral, right?
01:17:03It's like, we have to do.
01:17:03And also it tends to put the burden on women.
01:17:05It's like, we basically say to women, would you mind domesticating the men for us?
01:17:08And I'm like, no, I'm not like-
01:17:10There's a man child over here, marry him and make him a normal person.
01:17:12I mean like the women want, the men wants their house trained, right?
01:17:16They don't think it's their job to house train the man anymore.
01:17:19Yeah.
01:17:19Right.
01:17:20And I find that a difficult position to argue against.
01:17:23But the problem is that if that takes, you know, what's going to happen to the men in the meantime?
01:17:27Are the men getting themselves ready?
01:17:29Are they getting their competence skills ready?
01:17:31Yes.
01:17:31If so, yes, maybe.
01:17:33But I worry that continued delay misses out for this kind of, this moment, this kind of,
01:17:39and you know, I'm a dad and there is just this imperceptible feeling of this kind of cog inside
01:17:46you just going click and you become a different kind of creature.
01:17:51You do.
01:17:54I mean, it's very hard.
01:17:55In fact, some philosopher whose name I've forgotten now, she had this great analogy.
01:17:59It was like trying to explain to someone who doesn't have kids, what it's like to have kids
01:18:04is like trying to explain to someone that's not a vampire, what it's like to be a vampire, right?
01:18:08So I'm the vampire.
01:18:09I'm like, yeah, well, I, you know, I like to go out at night.
01:18:11I like to suck blood, you know, I hang upside down, et cetera.
01:18:14And you're like a human, you're like, all right.
01:18:17And she uses that as an analogy between the chasm of the different kind of creature you become.
01:18:22And it's like you suddenly it's just existentially obvious to you that there are lives, there is a
01:18:30life or lives in the world that are just unambiguously more important than your own.
01:18:36And for whom you would do anything, you would give your life for them.
01:18:40It's very pro-social.
01:18:41You would throw, yes, you would throw.
01:18:43So it changes men in this massively kind of positive way.
01:18:47This is why fatherhood.
01:18:48Fatherhood is somewhat, one of my colleagues put this in the other way.
01:18:52Fatherhood is the last male institution.
01:18:54You don't have institutions anymore that are kind of just like male.
01:18:58I'm not saying there aren't still some that are predominantly male, but like actually fatherhood,
01:19:02like that is always going to be a male institution.
01:19:05And it is so in a way that isn't just like a fact.
01:19:08It's actually a thing.
01:19:09It's an institution that changes us.
01:19:11It transforms us from the inside out.
01:19:14And so if that's not happening to enough men and you do see this rise in childlessness, I mean,
01:19:21for all the discussion about incels, it's the kind of, what would be the equivalent of like
01:19:27not having a kid and in involuntary dads.
01:19:31But yeah, that's a much more troubling trend because without that pro-social structure and
01:19:38script and implication for men, that's a huge problem.
01:19:40So maybe it going later is bad.
01:19:43But I also think the way free societies work as opposed to communist China, where they just
01:19:48said, wait, there's going to be too many children.
01:19:49You're only allowed one.
01:19:50Even having Singapore, I just learned recently that like your third government would pay for
01:19:54the birth of the first two kids, but you're on your own after that.
01:19:56So you'd have to pay for the medical costs of your third child, right?
01:20:00So, cause they read Ehrlich's book and they just freaked out.
01:20:02So you saw it.
01:20:03In a free society, what happens is we learn from not only from our own mistakes, but from
01:20:10other people's mistakes.
01:20:11And so if we're starting to see more and more women say, or men saying, you know what?
01:20:15I kind of regret not doing that earlier.
01:20:17I kind of wish I'd done that, et cetera.
01:20:19Then that learning will get passed on.
01:20:21Do you hear many women saying that?
01:20:23Is that a popular topic that's being pushed much at the moment?
01:20:25There I will have to plead ignorance.
01:20:28But I'm just saying as a general point, cultures learn if they're free.
01:20:32And so if it's not working out for people, people will see that it's not working out
01:20:35for people and they'll do it differently.
01:20:37Yeah.
01:20:37I think that's how progress happens.
01:20:40I would love that to be the case.
01:20:41I would really love for there to be at least parity between the different types of life
01:20:48paths that people can take.
01:20:49Yeah.
01:20:50And at the moment it doesn't feel that way.
01:20:51If you look in the media, if you look in popular culture, if you look in music, there's a really
01:20:56fascinating song by Kelsey Ballerini and it's called I Sit in Parks.
01:21:00And what she talks about is she was in a long-term relationship.
01:21:06She was 30.
01:21:06Her partner was 37 and he was ready to have kids.
01:21:09She said she wanted to freeze her eggs and that was a gift to her and him on her 30th
01:21:13birthday because she wanted to go and chase her music.
01:21:17She wanted to go and play music and do this to her.
01:21:18And he said, I'm ready to have kids now.
01:21:19If we're not ready to have kids now, I'm going to move on.
01:21:21She said, I'm not.
01:21:22He moved on.
01:21:24And then this song and the album, the EP got released two or three years later.
01:21:28And it's a story about her sitting in the park and watching this family, this mother and
01:21:34father, and she sits on the bench and she rips her vape.
01:21:38And she says, Rolling Stone is telling me that I'm doing all the right things, but I wonder
01:21:44if I've left it too late to be a mother.
01:21:46I chose to do the damn tour instead of going back.
01:21:48So I take my Lexapro and I make my next song and she's watching this family sort of have
01:21:55a wonderful Saturday morning to themselves.
01:21:58I'm wondering whether or not she's made the wrong decision.
01:22:00That was so fucking shocking.
01:22:02And she's a country artist anyway, but that was so fucking shocking.
01:22:06And the comments are filled with women who agree, but that is not.
01:22:10I'm saying what's the equivalent song from the parents who obviously like everyone's
01:22:14glamorized there, right?
01:22:16The parents' song is like, God, I wish I could have gotten up late like her and had time to
01:22:19make myself up and have a dress and be free.
01:22:22Maybe the mom is looking at her thinking like, why did I have kids with this guy when I could
01:22:27be like her on a swing in a gray dress?
01:22:29The grass is always greener when you've got optionality.
01:22:32And also like she probably got a good night's sleep kind of last night.
01:22:35I remember like when our kids were really young, we kind of lived on this flat in Bessos Park
01:22:40in London.
01:22:42And I would get up, I did the early shift like a lot of dads did.
01:22:46I remember my wife would be sleeping and I'd be there with the kids, but I had two under
01:22:51three at one point.
01:22:52And I would wait, dawn would break.
01:22:55I'd be tired, wait for a couple.
01:22:57And then this gay couple, these gay guys lived opposite us, right?
01:23:00The other side of the street.
01:23:01You think about being gay.
01:23:03I watched, they would get up.
01:23:06They had lovely bathrobes.
01:23:07They'd make a great coffee machine.
01:23:09Hang on, you were watching two gay guys through the window.
01:23:11Listen, it's like a long night.
01:23:12Okay.
01:23:13And I'm just watching them and they had this kind of terrace and the point is like, I know,
01:23:16and I would just say, they'd get up late.
01:23:19They'd have nice coffee.
01:23:20They'd read the paper on the thing.
01:23:21They didn't have kids crawling on mechanics.
01:23:23So yeah, the grass is always greener.
01:23:24But here's, I actually think, I think you're making my point.
01:23:27You're making my point for me, which is there you have this incredibly breakout country artist,
01:23:33right?
01:23:33With this strong message, which is maybe I waited too long.
01:23:38Like maybe this wasn't the right thing for me to do.
01:23:41It's a story of regret, right?
01:23:43Song of regret.
01:23:44That is going to be listened to, as you said, by like millions and millions and millions
01:23:48of women, right?
01:23:49That's how cultures change is that we get stuff a bit wrong and we try it and we try this and
01:23:53that didn't work.
01:23:53We do this and we all learn from each other and we adapt as a culture.
01:23:58As an eternal pessimist, I really hope that that's the case.
01:24:02You're right.
01:24:02It's too early not to assume it won't be.
01:24:04That's all I ask.
01:24:05Cool.
01:24:05I mean, the reason that it seems surprising to me is it's so rebellious.
01:24:10Like that is a much more rebellious song to put out than sleep with him and not catch feels.
01:24:16I don't think that's true anymore.
01:24:18I actually suspect that song is going to do pretty well.
01:24:20Oh, it is.
01:24:20But that is more rebellious.
01:24:23That's not the main culture at the moment.
01:24:25I don't get the sense.
01:24:25And look, what's the main culture?
01:24:27If she's not the main culture, right?
01:24:29She's a huge, she's not one country artist with a two million place song.
01:24:32I think I really worry that you see the main culture as like the New York Times, right?
01:24:38Which is like a peripheral counterculture at this point.
01:24:41I shouldn't say that because I gave it right.
01:24:43I gave me right for them.
01:24:44You need them at some point.
01:24:46I guess that road's closed now.
01:24:47But they're just not, or even CNN.
01:24:50Like actually the mainstream culture, it's her.
01:24:54It's you.
01:24:54Country music is top number one.
01:24:59There's this really interesting thing going on there where
01:25:02I just think that the young people in particular,
01:25:05they're trying to figure out how to take the best of what came before,
01:25:08but not be landed with the worst of it.
01:25:10And part of that is to rethink this whole kind of gender relationship thing.
01:25:13And they're doing that and it's hard.
01:25:15It is complex, which is-
01:25:16And they're not going back.
01:25:18As I said, like dads are doing more.
01:25:19But I think she's the one also, right?
01:25:21Like he opens the door and like it's very courteous and stuff like that.
01:25:24Just really lands.
01:25:25So I hope you won't mind me saying some of my youngest son went to the University of Tennessee.
01:25:30And he always opens the car door and closes the car door for his girlfriend or who he's kind of with.
01:25:34And his friends are up from the Northeast.
01:25:36I'm like, "Oh God, I have to start doing that now."
01:25:38Because they went to liberal colleges where that's like the non-feminist thing to do.
01:25:41But by and large, even the kind of liberal women don't hate it.
01:25:47And so I think that actually the mainstream culture is kind of moving on this thing.
01:25:52I hope so.
01:25:53That'd be great.
01:25:55And we have to make them feel that we've got their backs.
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01:27:15What happened with this debate between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson?
01:27:19Did you see it?
01:27:20I didn't know that this happened.
01:27:21Oh, you didn't see it?
01:27:22Okay.
01:27:22No.
01:27:22Well, partly because I know them both and Scott's on our advisory board, as I mentioned.
01:27:27So Derek Thompson came back from paternity leave and it was actually the first thing he
01:27:32did was go on Scott Galloway's podcast.
01:27:35I think he said it's not just like the first day back, it's the first hour back.
01:27:38And he'd been, I think, on paternity leave for a couple of months.
01:27:41And that just triggered this debate where Scott said, "You're just back from paternity leave.
01:27:47How are you doing?"
01:27:48"I'm finding my way back.
01:27:50I won't be as coherent as usual."
01:27:51Derek was incredibly coherent.
01:27:53And Scott just said, "Well, honestly, I don't understand this whole paternity leave thing,
01:27:57or even why men should go to the births.
01:27:59I don't think men should be at the births.
01:28:00It's disgusting.
01:28:02And the men should be outside smoking cigarettes like the old days, and then they should go
01:28:05back to work.
01:28:05I just think it's ridiculous, basically."
01:28:09Derek was like, "Well, actually men do need to take time off to be with their kids because
01:28:15otherwise women are the only ones doing it and you'll have gender inequality in the workplace."
01:28:20Well, I found it interesting about that.
01:28:21I haven't said anything about this publicly yet, but I think you're both wrong.
01:28:27I think that Scott was wrong in suggesting that men and dads are of no use in the kind
01:28:36of early months.
01:28:37They are of a different use to moms, for sure.
01:28:40But they are very often the main allo parent now.
01:28:42They're very often the kind of one that's around.
01:28:44And they very often are the one that's getting stuff done.
01:28:47They're like, "Have you heard of the owl monkeys or like the best dads in the natural world,
01:28:52apparently?"
01:28:52No, owl monkeys.
01:28:53Where the dads are kind of around all the time.
01:28:55And basically, moms are doing the breastfeeding and nurturing.
01:28:57Dads are doing everything else.
01:28:58Dad is getting shit done.
01:28:59He's getting the food.
01:29:01He's getting organized.
01:29:01He's around, but he's still around them.
01:29:03That's kind of how it is, I think.
01:29:06That was certainly my experience.
01:29:08So you can't do what mom's doing.
01:29:09You also don't feel the same way that mom does about the baby.
01:29:12You just can't.
01:29:13Just can't.
01:29:14You're not wired to at that point.
01:29:17So you're still useful.
01:29:18So Scott was wrong about that.
01:29:20But I didn't like the way Derek framed this as men should take time off so that women aren't
01:29:28the only ones taking time off so that we can get close to gender pay gap.
01:29:31He framed it as a gender equity issue.
01:29:32And my view is dads should actually be able to take time off and should take time off their
01:29:39kids.
01:29:39Not just when they're young, et cetera.
01:29:40Not because they can do what moms do.
01:29:43Nor in support of gender equality.
01:29:46But because dads are awesome.
01:29:47And kids are awesome.
01:29:49And kids do really well with their dads around them.
01:29:51So I don't want to be the deputy, the kind of malfunctioning mom.
01:29:55The kind of, oh, if only you could be a mom.
01:29:57No, no.
01:29:57Dads are amazing.
01:29:58And so I'm really pushing this idea that kind of fell between those two stools.
01:30:04So the old idea of dads is just go back to work, smoke a cigar, have a cigar.
01:30:07I think you meant cigar, actually.
01:30:08But have a cigar, a whiskey, back to work.
01:30:11And Derek Singer's like, no, if you're a good gender egalitarian, you've got to take time
01:30:15off, right?
01:30:16Even if you hate it and you suck at it, right?
01:30:17Because that's the way to get gender equality.
01:30:19I'm like guys, guys, what about just saying dads are cool.
01:30:23And being a dad, and the way dads are with their kids is a bit different to moms on average
01:30:27in many ways.
01:30:29Amazing.
01:30:30So I want like a, again, a pro dad argument rather than a gender equality argument for
01:30:36fathering.
01:30:37Should dads be in the birthing room?
01:30:38The evidence on actually interesting Darby Saxby, who I mentioned earlier, dad brain.
01:30:42She did write a response to this kind of thing, which people can find.
01:30:46And she kind of rightly pointed out that actually the evidence on how the unprecedented trial
01:30:52of dads being in the birthing room is going is really mixed.
01:30:56We don't know.
01:30:57And actually kind of sometimes in surveys afterwards, like moms have mixed feelings about it.
01:31:01If the birth doesn't go well, I think you talk to Anna Machin about this.
01:31:04It can be quite traumatizing for the dad.
01:31:06So I think, look, I might get in trouble for saying this now, but I think we have to be
01:31:10honest to say the evidence is a little bit mixed.
01:31:12And I think it shouldn't, shouldn't be like, it shouldn't be shamed for doing it or shamed
01:31:17for not doing it.
01:31:18And moms, by the way, should also feel like if they feel that there'll be better off with
01:31:22their mom or their friend or kind of somebody else, they should feel okay saying that to
01:31:26their partner too, for the actual birth, right?
01:31:29Neither are obliged to.
01:31:30Yeah.
01:31:31As a sort of, as Darby points out, we've never done this before, right?
01:31:34How long have men been in the birthing room?
01:31:37Maybe about 30, 40 years.
01:31:38Actually, I shared this with my, with my wife.
01:31:41I said, these things blew up.
01:31:42And she said, oh, Scott says that men shouldn't even be in the birthing room.
01:31:45She said, yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been.
01:31:48What?
01:31:50I said, what?
01:31:51It's like 25 years, 25 years later.
01:31:54I was like, what?
01:31:54I thought it was really useful.
01:31:56What about all of my words of encouragement?
01:31:58You're more harm than good.
01:31:59You're more harm than good.
01:32:00I mean, I mean, I don't, I haven't, I'm now sort of litigating something personal.
01:32:03We can just go back to it, but there are pros and cons, but, but I honestly think like it's
01:32:07not, it wasn't, I mean, the real truth is it was a very hot day and I'd ordered a fan cause
01:32:11I knew it was going to be hot, but I didn't realize the fan wasn't made.
01:32:14So I opened the box and she went into labor, went into labor.
01:32:18She's in labor, she's in labor.
01:32:21And I'm shouting from the other, I go into the other room, but she's having contractions.
01:32:25Took her down to home, right?
01:32:26And, um, and I said, uh, do you know where the Phillips screwdriver?
01:32:34And she said, I don't need a Phillips screwdriver to have a baby.
01:32:38I might know, but I need a Phillips screwdriver to make the fan.
01:32:41I'm not great at DIY anyway, to be honest.
01:32:46So I said, do you know where it is?
01:32:48And she's like, I'm in the other room.
01:32:51I'm trying to like, I'm this huge pressure now, right?
01:32:54This is like, I'm trying to make it, I'm trying to make it.
01:32:59And she's like, forget the fucking fan.
01:33:01Just like, I'm having the baby.
01:33:02I'm having the baby fan or no fan.
01:33:04The baby's coming around.
01:33:05I'm nearly done.
01:33:06I'm nearly done.
01:33:06I'm on, I'm on like, I'm on like step seven with the Phillips screwdriver.
01:33:10So I, you know, I didn't, I wasn't amazing from that point of view.
01:33:13So I think that the fan thing, it jaundiced her about my view.
01:33:16And then, uh, uh, anyway, the other one I'm all in now.
01:33:21The other one I'd say was in the birthing pool, right?
01:33:24Cause I was very into that.
01:33:26I need a birthing pool.
01:33:27And we'd been to one of these very, I think I can share this.
01:33:31It would be just very, very like progressive, midwifey thing, right?
01:33:38About birthing at home.
01:33:40And if you have it in the pool, that's kind of great, which is good right away.
01:33:42I mean, I'm all, I think the whole like over medicalization of child birthing.
01:33:46Like I'm, I'm, I'm really persuaded by that argument now.
01:33:48That actually doing it more naturally is really good.
01:33:50So I'd only misunderstood here, putting it in the pool.
01:33:52But she said, but guys, just kind of just say something to you.
01:33:55She said like, it's quite, it can get quite murky in there.
01:33:57Can't see it around, which is true.
01:34:00And she said, and so the only thing I'll say is if you get in the pool with your partner
01:34:04to support them, right.
01:34:06Put something up, put some swimming trunks on.
01:34:08She said, because there have been occasions when I've seen something spherical and hairy
01:34:14in the water.
01:34:15And I've assumed that it's the baby's head crowning and I've gone in to help it.
01:34:19And it wasn't the baby's head crowning.
01:34:21It was the dad's testicle.
01:34:22And so I grabbed him by the bollocks.
01:34:26And literally every guy in the room was like, so this is the other child, right?
01:34:32So this time she's having a baby.
01:34:35She's like, you know, I want you to get in and rub my back and do it.
01:34:37So I'm cool.
01:34:38I'm here for you, honey.
01:34:38And then I go into the other room and then I'm shouting out, where am I swimming trunks?
01:34:42Like what are you talking about?
01:34:44I need my swimmers.
01:34:45She's like, I don't know where they are.
01:34:46I can't find them.
01:34:47I'm slamming trunks open.
01:34:49And the midwife is like, for God's sake, she's having the baby get in the pool.
01:34:52I don't care.
01:34:53I don't care.
01:34:53I said, it's not about modesty.
01:34:55I said, the lady at the thing, the lady at the Lamaze class.
01:34:57She said, you've got to, you've got to wear swimming trunks.
01:34:59I said, I'm not getting in there with a house.
01:35:00So anyway, so my main advice.
01:35:05And then I guess, you know, the other one, the other child was like, you get to cut the
01:35:08cord and I was terrible at it.
01:35:09I couldn't cut it.
01:35:09I was hacking through it.
01:35:10I thought you'd have these massive shears, you know, like, like opening up a new fucking
01:35:15city hall.
01:35:18Tiny little pair of scissors and you're trying to hack through it.
01:35:20It's really gristly.
01:35:21Took me ages.
01:35:21And then the other side of the car and I'll do it.
01:35:23And to this day, my oldest son has got this really weird belly button and he blames me
01:35:26for it because, you know, so, so all the fathers out there.
01:35:29Key, key items.
01:35:32If you are going to be with a Phillips fan driver or make, pre-make the fan or have a
01:35:36Phillips screwdriver, a really good pair of scissors.
01:35:39Cause the ones that give you a crap and swimming trunks and then you'll be fine.
01:35:43Oh God.
01:35:46Well, is the idea of, um, not being in the, but I didn't know that it has only been four
01:35:52decades.
01:35:53Yeah, I guess seventies.
01:35:53I don't know, but that's really when it came in.
01:35:55It was like seventies and eighties.
01:35:56And it went from being like, it's a really interesting cultural change.
01:35:59I mean, if you look at, uh, I didn't have the numbers to hand, but, but it really flipped
01:36:03very fast.
01:36:04And as I say, you know, it's too soon probably to get this kind of strong evidence around
01:36:10it.
01:36:10Um, and it was a great example of how like, like the internet, I think Scott ended up kind
01:36:14of collapsing and kind of, you know, on him and kind of, kind of apologizing.
01:36:18But, but as I said, Darby Saxby was saying, actually, we don't really know yet about the
01:36:22dads in the birthing room thing because we've, that is a completely unprecedented culture.
01:36:26And she came out in favor of it and said, but you know, dads are great.
01:36:29Putting them on my kids.
01:36:30Like you put the, you put the kid on your, on your chest and one of them pooped all over
01:36:35me.
01:36:36But actually that skin to skin thing, building skinship to use a term that someone uses, that's
01:36:41all true.
01:36:42Um, and that's great.
01:36:43Uh, but that got lost of course, in, you know, the positions that people had to take on.
01:36:49Paternity leave seems a little bit more of a easy discussion to pass.
01:36:55Much easier now.
01:36:56And it's interesting, like it's not, most States are doing something on it now.
01:37:00Basically the Democrat States are passing some sort of paid leave policy for dads and the
01:37:04Republican ones are having tax credits to encourage employers to offer paid leave.
01:37:08And so the idea that dads, you know, dads are parents too, uh, and bring something different,
01:37:14uh, that's not really a controversial idea anymore.
01:37:16And we have seen a massive increase, I mentioned earlier in parenting by dads, um, and a massive
01:37:21increase in the uptake.
01:37:22There are some States now where sort of the new parental leave policy is as likely to be
01:37:25taken by dads as by moms.
01:37:26And so there's been this, I find this very interesting, like a way you get these culture
01:37:31wars, right?
01:37:31Where either we're being overrun by woke feminists who like, you know, demonizing men and running
01:37:37everything into the ground, or you get these kinds of reactionary podcast type, you know,
01:37:42people are like reactionaries who are kind of taking us back to the Handmaid's Tale.
01:37:45And then you just go to the data and you say, huh, interesting.
01:37:48Dads are doing more parenting than before.
01:37:50It's not like a significant kind of increase, right?
01:37:54Labor force participation for women's actually hit its all time high after the pandemic.
01:37:59I mean, it was a little bit, um, violent crime is way down.
01:38:04It's halved in the last new decades.
01:38:06The number of boys fighting at school also halved in the last kind of few decades, et
01:38:10cetera, et cetera.
01:38:11And so, um, away from the cliques, to use your language from earlier and away from the
01:38:18culture war, what I see is by and large ordinary people, moms and dads, young people, boys
01:38:26and girls trying to figure this out and figuring it out one way or the other.
01:38:31And it's bumpy and it's difficult and it's messy.
01:38:33But I think that the progress line is there.
01:38:35And I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit sick of the pessimism.
01:38:37I'm a little bit sick of the deficit frame.
01:38:39My hero, John Stuart Mill once said, everybody who knows anything of the world is supposed
01:38:43to think ill of it, right?
01:38:44So that intellectual snobbery in favor of pessimism has always been there.
01:38:48Right.
01:38:48And he was like, and so, uh, I'm trying to recalibrate some of my own talking about this
01:38:53because there is a danger that you're like, we could talk about stuff we've talked about
01:38:56before about wages and male suicide and no real problems, but it's just kind of why that
01:39:02it becomes a bit of a, almost a cultural race to the bottom.
01:39:06It's like, who can describe exactly how we're going to hell in the handcart?
01:39:11In the most grave terms, the fastest.
01:39:13And then you'll get on podcasts, then you'll get clicks, then you'll get book deals.
01:39:16And, and, uh, the market for that, it's not a new, it's not a new problem.
01:39:21You actually think about the number of books that start with the end of, right?
01:39:25And at one point I thought it might be the end of endings or something because I'm just
01:39:28sick of those as well.
01:39:29It's like, everything's the end of everything, right?
01:39:31Rather than, you know what, we're figuring this out.
01:39:32It's a bit difficult.
01:39:33We should help each other out.
01:39:34We should have some supportive policies.
01:39:36We shouldn't demonize each other.
01:39:37We should definitely not pathologize men or women or anybody else.
01:39:40And we should try and figure this out.
01:39:43But, but onwards and upwards, because otherwise pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
01:39:48And I think it's a real problem, particularly for America.
01:39:50I mean, we're in America now, right?
01:39:52And things I love about America and I hated about our old country was that everyone lived
01:39:55in the past.
01:39:56And this definition of an old person is, you know, you're old when you spend more of your
01:40:01time thinking about your past than your future.
01:40:03I think the same is true of societies.
01:40:06Once societies start thinking more about their history and their, you know, all of that, which
01:40:12you want, you want that sense of history and patriotism, but you want to be spending more
01:40:15time thinking about the future.
01:40:16I just heard this guy on a podcast.
01:40:18I can't remember who was somewhere.
01:40:20I think it's the guy who left Harvard actually.
01:40:21And he sort of said, Americans, the thing about America is that it's obsessed with progress
01:40:26and innovation.
01:40:27I'm like, yes, yes.
01:40:29That's why I'm a proud American.
01:40:33What's happening with men's life satisfaction at the moment?
01:40:37Uh, I don't know the latest data on that actually.
01:40:39Um, I don't, I don't.
01:40:41But you mentioned, here's a bunch of reasons why stuff's maybe not quite as fucked as people
01:40:45think it is.
01:40:45Yeah.
01:40:46But I think if you were to lick your finger and put it in the air and take a cultural temperature
01:40:50of how people are talking about the situation.
01:40:52Yeah.
01:40:53I think more people would, what's the number one reason for why people, uh, the Pew research
01:40:59data on why they don't have kids just don't feel ready yet?
01:41:02Uh, yes.
01:41:03And then the second is couldn't find the right person.
01:41:04Couldn't find the right person, second one, but just don't feel ready yet.
01:41:08It's like unfinished article, a little bit unsure of myself and the world.
01:41:12Yeah.
01:41:12I mean, there's, there's, there's a mixture of objective and subjective measures here.
01:41:16There was this really interesting paper looking at the kind of five milestones to adulthood,
01:41:19like finishing education, getting a job, leaving home, getting married, having kids.
01:41:23And it was very, what it found was that 20 years ago, men were more likely to hit those
01:41:28milestones and now men are less likely than women to hit those milestones.
01:41:31So the milestones to adulthood are being hit more by women now than by men because the
01:41:35coefficient has, has flipped.
01:41:37As far as the wellbeing stuff goes, my last time I looked at this, it was relatively stable
01:41:42on the kind of good subjective wellbeing measures.
01:41:44We do know that men are much more affected by relationship breakup and unemployment.
01:41:50And so negative economic and social shocks damage male wellbeing more than female wellbeing.
01:41:56So you might expect, um, some of the recent shocks to have affected men more.
01:42:00The trouble with this, honestly, is that there's just so many bad surveys out there that will
01:42:03ask these kind of point in time questions, uh, from both sides.
01:42:07I'm not throwing anybody under the bus here, but just like, and it gets clicked.
01:42:09And some of the surveys, like there's so many surveys on young men now.
01:42:12I mean, like if I get another email saying we want to do a survey on what young men are
01:42:15really thinking, I'm like, I don't know, please don't, because you'll just ask some
01:42:18stupid questions and then you'll over-interpret the answers and we won't be able to repeat
01:42:21the question because it doesn't, it's, there's no time series on it.
01:42:24And people will just in that moment, they'll just react to the question in that kind of
01:42:28particular cultural moment, and then we'll over-interpret it.
01:42:30Yeah.
01:42:31So if you're in the middle of the Iran war, you're going to feel differently than if it's.
01:42:34Yeah.
01:42:34Yeah.
01:42:34Or even like, and also we've seen massive swings in some of these things, just like one side
01:42:38of the other of a presidential election.
01:42:40And you think really, if like who's in the white house is massively changing how you feel
01:42:43about the world, then that's telling us that this is highly subjective.
01:42:46What was that nuance on title nine that I texted you about?
01:42:49I thought this was really interesting.
01:42:51I saw, I texted you about, um, some guy had done a video and it was actually of the episode
01:42:56that I did with Scott, which is Scott talking.
01:42:58Yeah.
01:42:59Oh, that's right.
01:43:00And Scott had said title nine is used to sort of pull back men, but the guy's video said
01:43:08it could also be used for raising up men.
01:43:11Yeah.
01:43:11What's the nuance?
01:43:13Yeah.
01:43:14The nuance there is that title nine is anti-sex discrimination in higher education, right?
01:43:20It basically just takes the idea of you can't discriminate on the basis of sex and it makes
01:43:25it clear that that's true in higher education.
01:43:26There is one exception to that, which is undergraduate admissions to private colleges, which I'll
01:43:31come back to because it's relevant to the answer.
01:43:33But what it basically says is you can't discriminate on the basis of sex.
01:43:36And so it was really an anti-discrimination measure, not a strongly affirmative action
01:43:42measure.
01:43:43So it's not, it didn't say to colleges, everything else equal, you should let women in, not men.
01:43:47And there's no evidence that that's happening, right?
01:43:48There's no evidence that the reason there are more women in college now than men is because
01:43:54there's a thumb on the scale in favor of the women.
01:43:57They're just better in terms of the...
01:43:59Is there a thumb on the scale against the favor of men?
01:44:02Uh, no, not, not.
01:44:04I've seen absolutely no evidence for that.
01:44:06In fact, if anything, most colleges, public or private, although the publics don't have
01:44:11this carve out, actually are quite worried about this.
01:44:14We've got a whole, uh, we've got a thing now, uh, higher education male achievement collaborative
01:44:18working with colleges.
01:44:19Cause they like, they, they start to worry once they get 60, 46 to five.
01:44:22Cause not only do their male applications drop, their female applications start to drop too,
01:44:26because the dating market on a college campus where there are twice as many women as men
01:44:32is not awesome for women.
01:44:33So maybe it comes back to a little bit, but people who don't think there's any difference
01:44:36between men and women should look at the difference in the dating market on college campuses at
01:44:40SKU where there are two women for every man.
01:44:43And I had young women saying that they, they look at the gender ratio of colleges before
01:44:46they decide to apply because this message has gotten out there now that it's not awesome
01:44:50to be among, uh, in a college where there are twice as many.
01:44:53So no, no, no strong evidence for a thumb on the scale against men.
01:44:57The exception is Title IX carves out private undergraduate colleges and undergraduate
01:45:04admissions.
01:45:04And the reason they did that was otherwise you would have at a stroke abolished the single
01:45:07sex colleges.
01:45:08You wouldn't have been able to have single sex colleges.
01:45:10You have to let Wellesley only admit women, right?
01:45:13But the result of that is that those colleges do have a thumb on the scale in favor of men
01:45:17now to try and stay closer to 50/50.
01:45:20So it's an open secret that it's a bit easier to get into those elite colleges.
01:45:24If you're a guy, then if you're a woman.
01:45:25Did you see there was a dating, um, singles mixer that happened in New York and women were
01:45:36charged a hundred dollars to attend and men will let in free.
01:45:40You're a nightclub promoter.
01:45:43The ratio was still three to one women to men.
01:45:46Yeah.
01:45:47So the sex ratio in New York is similar to, well, it's a bit more, but it's not far off
01:45:51what it's going to be on college campuses.
01:45:52Yeah.
01:45:52No, the sex ratio is not like that in New York as a whole.
01:45:55In fact, we, we have empirical data on this.
01:45:57We've looked at the sex ratios by county and you've seen a shift.
01:46:00So there are twice as many, uh, majority male counties today as there were 20, 30 years ago.
01:46:06Um, largely because of out migration, we think out migration by women.
01:46:08And then there are some urban counties, of course, where it's the sex ratio is where
01:46:12there are a lot more women than the sex ratio of the singles.
01:46:16No, but we did look, um, within age cohort and we do see a difference, but it's of course,
01:46:20nothing like as dramatic as three to one.
01:46:22Yeah, it just skews a little bit.
01:46:24You know, there's something going up.
01:46:25Maybe it's a selection mechanism that guys have checked out of the dating market.
01:46:30Uh, maybe it's that women are pushing more towards trying to find partners, but.
01:46:35Yeah.
01:46:35But your example suggests like the men, like there are more women than men of dating age.
01:46:40Let's put it that way in New York and.
01:46:42Who are motivated to.
01:46:44But then the question is like, who's out, right?
01:46:45Like who's motivated?
01:46:46Yeah.
01:46:46Who's in, who's like, you can, uh, are you in the market to come back to the analogy that
01:46:50I didn't like earlier, but like, are you, are you out there doing it?
01:46:52And so there we might see, and you see like women are more like to travel now than men.
01:46:56I do think it's like, I, I don't see any empirical evidence for this, but my anecdotal
01:47:01sense of it just sort of traveling around as I do kind of come back now.
01:47:03It's like when you were in a restaurant or a kind of bar now, if you see a group of young
01:47:07people together for a night out, I think it's more likely women now.
01:47:10Again, no strong empirical evidence on that, but I just think that those kinds of public
01:47:13spaces, um, if anything, maybe still a little bit more, more female.
01:47:17If you zoom out for 50 years, what do you think happens for men over the next few decades?
01:47:27Are you optimistic, pessimistic?
01:47:28What are you most concerned about?
01:47:30What are you most hopeful for?
01:47:31Uh, I look, I'm an inveterate optimist.
01:47:34Uh, I do think the glasses are full, but for me, I've come to realize is that my optimism
01:47:41isn't just an orientation or a personality trait.
01:47:45It is that, I think for me, it's getting close to something like a virtue that to think well
01:47:53of the future, um, is, is valuable in and of itself.
01:47:58Um, because I think otherwise the kind of messaging to young people more generally is so relentlessly
01:48:04negative and then we kind of blame them for feeling down.
01:48:06Right.
01:48:07Um, I'm, so I'm pretty optimistic.
01:48:08And the reason I'm optimistic is cause it's, it's a hell of a mess right now.
01:48:12Like it's very messy.
01:48:13It's goopy, uh, figuring it out.
01:48:15Some of the stuff we've talked about here and argued about here just shows you that particularly
01:48:18for kind of young men and young women just kind of figure out this new, these new realities.
01:48:22But I think we're kind of past the sort of, we're breaking past, I hope more of the zero sum.
01:48:28We are getting more to kind of world where young men and young women are kind of trying
01:48:32to figure this out in good faith.
01:48:34And I think they will figure it out.
01:48:35I don't know how, but we always have.
01:48:38One way or the other.
01:48:40And I think we will again.
01:48:41And I think that people are ready to get past some of the bullshit ideological traps that
01:48:46people have been trying to put us in for too long.
01:48:49I really think there's a hunger for that.
01:48:50I hope so.
01:48:51Cause one of the byproducts that you have of lots of conflicting messages, you know, you said
01:48:57the pinball or the male vertigo masculinity vertigo, um, where men don't know what they're
01:49:04supposed to be.
01:49:05They're supposed to be masculine on a Monday and then soft on a Tuesday and then a tyrant
01:49:09on a Wednesday and then, you know, you're in therapy on a Thursday.
01:49:12Yoga on Friday.
01:49:13Yeah, exactly.
01:49:14Um, one of the problems I think that can come out of that is a type of.
01:49:18If there's lots of conflicting messages, it doesn't convince you of any one particular
01:49:25message.
01:49:25It just makes you immune to being convinced apathy, right?
01:49:30That this is what a disinformation and a misinformation campaign is supposed to achieve when it's done
01:49:34en masse as a, uh, information warfare by a foreign adversary.
01:49:38It's not to convince the populace of one thing or another all the time.
01:49:42Sometimes it's just to make them distrust all advice.
01:49:46Yes.
01:49:46And I think that, you know, the checking out of men, the retreat, that you have, uh, a poll
01:49:53in, uh, screens, video games, porn, weed, sedation hypothesis.
01:50:00But this is another twist of it, which, and you're right, but this is, uh, there is an
01:50:04attractor, which is, it may be difficult to convince men to, uh, not go out into the real
01:50:12world and try to make stuff happen through conflicting messages.
01:50:17If it wasn't for the fact that there's something else that they can do, like these two things
01:50:21need to be happening at once.
01:50:22Yeah.
01:50:22There's a push and a pull.
01:50:24Correct.
01:50:24Yes.
01:50:25Correct.
01:50:25And they're both going in the same direction.
01:50:26That's why, I mean, you've talked, I know you've talked a lot, but that's why I think it's
01:50:30consistent with crime going down, even as more young men are disengaged, which is historically,
01:50:35I think, unprecedented, which is the kind of sedation or sometimes like they're on the screens,
01:50:39not on the streets is another way to think about this.
01:50:42Um, and in some ways I think that makes it a harder thing to get attention to.
01:50:45Right.
01:50:45I think if there was, if we did an increase in crime among young men, if we were seeing
01:50:49like more antisocial behavior, et cetera, then I think it would be very close to the top.
01:50:52Sound the alarm.
01:50:53Yes.
01:50:54Because it's more of a silent retreat and very often because, you know, turning inward,
01:50:57that's less likely to sound the alarm.
01:50:59But I actually think in the end, most people do want to flourish and they do want to find
01:51:05someone to be with.
01:51:06And I think that women and men are both seeking partners and someone who's got someone about
01:51:10them.
01:51:10Right.
01:51:11It's got agency.
01:51:12It's got forward momentum, got optimism.
01:51:14I think that's going to win.
01:51:15I think it always has won.
01:51:16I don't know how it will win this time, but I'm sure it will.
01:51:20Yeah.
01:51:20I just hope that uselessness doesn't beget more uselessness.
01:51:23Sedation doesn't beget more sedation because it's, you're going to have to reverse the trend
01:51:28here, right?
01:51:29Like you can say, we're worried about there being too many people on the planet and the
01:51:32population bomb is a really big deal.
01:51:34You go, well, if that's going to stop or if that's going to slow down, it's going to require
01:51:38reversal of the direction.
01:51:40And the same thing is true now.
01:51:41If the trend is moving in the right direction and you're right, the line is between, do we
01:51:47want more useless men or do we want more dangerous men?
01:51:51If those are the two options that we have in front of us, that's not a particularly good
01:51:55fucking scenario.
01:51:56I would say 51, 49, it's better to have useless men than dangerous men, but that's only because
01:52:01we're in peace time.
01:52:02I would much sooner have competent, peaceful, right?
01:52:05Than useless or dangerous.
01:52:07I got sent this morning a new Institute for Family Studies survey.
01:52:12There's some cool stuff in here, which I think you might like.
01:52:14Institute for Family Studies survey of 2000 young men, aged 18 to 29, challenges nearly
01:52:20everything being said about the male crisis in America, including by its most prominent
01:52:23voices on both left and right.
01:52:2568% of unmarried men want to get married with another 21% unsure the crisis isn't lacking
01:52:31desire at circumstance.
01:52:3359% are not in a romantic relationship, but 74% of those men are open to dating.
01:52:39So there was that famous two thirds of men say that 50% of men in that age bracket say
01:52:47that they're not looking for casual or long-term relationships, that looks like it's changed.
01:52:5062% of childless young men want to be a father.
01:52:53Less than half of men aged 24 to 29 feel like adults, but the benchmarks most related to
01:53:01feeling like an adult are the traditional ones, marriage, parenthood, full-time work, completing
01:53:06education.
01:53:06Young men's number one role model is their mother, 79%, followed by their father, 69%.
01:53:15Andrew Tate ranked last among all prominent figures.
01:53:1989% say manhood requires willingness to sacrifice for others, challenging a manosphere narrative.
01:53:25Young men who completed trade school programs are employed full-time at almost identical
01:53:30rates to college graduates, 77% versus 80%, and even college-educated young men are skeptical
01:53:37of college with half saying it wasn't worth the time or money.
01:53:39There's a mixed bag in there, I'd say, wouldn't you?
01:53:42And you're like, I'm going, yeah, it's good.
01:53:46That was an emotional rollercoaster for me, Chris.
01:53:48I got to tell you, I was cheering half of it.
01:53:51I was up, I was down.
01:53:51I was like, oh, that's good, that's bad.
01:53:53Only 62% of childless men want to be a father.
01:53:56That sounds way low to me.
01:53:58Childless young men, right?
01:53:59That's under 29.
01:54:00Wow.
01:54:02Want to be a father?
01:54:03I don't know whether intent to become a father.
01:54:06It'd be interesting to see how they worded the question.
01:54:07Want to become a father.
01:54:08Because it's interesting, there was this NBC poll that came out not that long ago, it got
01:54:12a lot of attention, where they ranked young men and young women whether they'd voted for
01:54:17Harris or not, or Trump.
01:54:18And number one for the Trump-voting men was family and kids.
01:54:22And actually, men are a bit more likely to say that they want to get married and have
01:54:26kids now than women are.
01:54:27That's a reversal.
01:54:28So I'm finding that 62% number seems low.
01:54:31I think the anti-college thing worries me because the ROI on college is the same for men as it
01:54:36is for women, roughly speaking, and presumably could increase if you were to go to college
01:54:40now, if in 10 years time we were to look at how valuable a male college graduate is in
01:54:45the workforce, because they're going to be increasingly rare.
01:54:48Yeah, just in terms of, I mean, this is another thing I've had this argument with Scott about,
01:54:53which is that actually college graduates are getting married as much as they have for the
01:54:57last 40 years, right?
01:54:58There hasn't been a collapse in marriage among college graduates, even though there's this
01:55:01massive gender gap in college, right?
01:55:04The collapse in marriage has been among those without a college degree.
01:55:06That's a huge class gap.
01:55:07And so the kind of fretting about who will my daughter marry now that she's got a college
01:55:12degree is like, that's just completely unfounded.
01:55:14It's a flat line.
01:55:15And in fact, if anything, maybe a bit more likely to stay married than their mothers were
01:55:19because the divorce rate's gone down a bit.
01:55:20So because fewer people are getting married?
01:55:22Yeah, well, not among the college educated.
01:55:24That's the thing.
01:55:25Like the line, the marriage rate, it's about 90%, the marriage rate among college educated
01:55:30American women basically hasn't changed for the last 40, 50 years.
01:55:34Among men, college educated men.
01:55:36The same because they're matching with college educated women at about the same rate.
01:55:41Even though there's a smaller number of percentages.
01:55:43Exactly.
01:55:44But I mean, it's a bit of a nuance here.
01:55:46We've published on this is actually college educated women have always been willing to
01:55:49marry non-college educated men and continue to.
01:55:52So like 20% of them, of the women with a college degree.
01:55:54Why call it a blue collar?
01:55:56Yeah.
01:55:56And it's like, it's a very elitist conversation this because people, when they're talking about
01:55:59this, they're talking about someone who went to some sort of fancy college, right?
01:56:01But in my family, I've got nurse married to a plumber, right?
01:56:05Nursing requires a college degree, right?
01:56:06Does anyone out there think that nurses are looking down their noses at plumbers?
01:56:09If he's making a good living and he's doing well, he's working hard.
01:56:11No, I don't.
01:56:12The idea that somehow, you know, or a teacher won't marry a carpenter or it's just nonsense.
01:56:18So the marriage and the marriage rate is actually if anything slightly up.
01:56:21So there was mixed in there.
01:56:22I didn't like the courage.
01:56:23But yeah, the thing I also think was untrue.
01:56:26It said challenging this idea in the manosphere that men don't sacrifice themselves.
01:56:3289% say manhood requires willingness to sacrifice for others, challenging the manosphere narrative.
01:56:37Well, as a prominent proponent of the manosphere, I would say that you think men should sacrifice.
01:56:44Men should sacrifice themselves, right?
01:56:46I think that they've just been kicked out of the manosphere.
01:56:48I don't know which manosphere they're talking about.
01:56:50I mean, I guess, and also the Tate thing, of course, the Tate thing was really interesting.
01:56:53And I don't know if we talked about this last time.
01:56:55I mean, it really came back.
01:56:56And there was a kind of, I guess I've lost my friends at the New York Times by this point
01:57:00in the interview anyway.
01:57:01But like there's a New York Times headline drove me mad.
01:57:04I think I wrote about it publicly.
01:57:05Tate returns, MAGA celebrates.
01:57:08And so I went through it.
01:57:10That's very interesting because I've actually heard or read Josh Hawley, Megan Kelly, DeSantis,
01:57:18DeSantis AG all condemning Tate.
01:57:20Shapiro doesn't like him.
01:57:21Shapiro condemned him.
01:57:23They all condemned him in that moment, right?
01:57:25All that.
01:57:25So I'm like, who are you talking about?
01:57:27And it turned out that it was the young Republicans of so-and-so county in Florida
01:57:31had said, we're happy he's back and we'd love him to come speak to us.
01:57:33It was literally the only people they could find celebrating.
01:57:36But the headline was MAGA celebrates.
01:57:38Because again, that kind of fit, right?
01:57:40We like this idea that kind of MAGA wanted Tate back.
01:57:43But actually the truth was, I did write about this.
01:57:45It was like, everyone hates Andrew Tate.
01:57:47And that should be when radical feminists are shoulder to shoulder with Josh Hawley and Ben
01:57:52Shapiro condemning Andrew Tate, then surely we can take that as a win.
01:57:57Like, isn't this a win?
01:57:58Isn't that the headline?
01:58:00I think we're going to see more around the men's movement, MRA, come Manosphere, come
01:58:08Incel, Blackpill, Lux Max in Moggin community.
01:58:11Especially after Ross Camp and this Louis Theroux documentary.
01:58:15I can't wait for you to watch it.
01:58:16This Louis Theroux documentary on Netflix.
01:58:18It's his first ever Louis Theroux documentary on Netflix.
01:58:22And he said it's the final video game boss of his entire career because it's all of the
01:58:26things.
01:58:26It's casual sex with OnlyFans.
01:58:29It's sort of conspiracy theorist, which he's done in a turn.
01:58:33It's sort of almost cult-like behavior, which he's done previously.
01:58:36It's financial grift, which he's been a part of as well.
01:58:38All bundled up into this sort of TikTok-ification version for 2026.
01:58:44And I, with adolescence, with the way that Louis' doc was presented, I do think that we're
01:58:54going to see more of a moral panic around what's happening with young men.
01:58:57I think that it's going to look a lot like these guys are being led astray by bad actors.
01:59:07There is limited hope.
01:59:10Socially, they are learning not to sacrifice for others, but to dominate and be domineering.
01:59:18Yeah, very much so.
01:59:18Selfish.
01:59:19Very self-serving.
01:59:20It's not great.
01:59:23And for all that I can keep on doing podcasts that I think are accurate and balanced and
01:59:30hopefully really educate people about what's actually going on, I don't have the reach
01:59:36of fucking huge documentaries or series.
01:59:39Adolescence was a global fucking phenomenon.
01:59:42It was a huge hit.
01:59:43And it was great drama.
01:59:44It was a great TV show apart from some of the natural elements.
01:59:49And again, I just think there's a lag here.
01:59:52I actually think that it's a little bit out of step now and that enough people are starting
01:59:57to say the moral panic around men, the pathologization of young men, the demonization of young men
02:00:04is exactly the wrong thing to do.
02:00:06And that kind of narrative ruff that everyone's in, like the easy thing to say, I just think
02:00:12it's out of date and people are realizing that.
02:00:15And they're realizing it has not worked out well for anybody, for us as a society to point
02:00:20our fingers at young men and say, what the hell is wrong with you?
02:00:23You're either lazy or useless or you're being radicalized or whatever.
02:00:26There's long litany of things that are wrong with you.
02:00:29I just think enough people are kind of realizing that that's A, just unbelievably lacking compassion
02:00:35and B, massively counterproductive.
02:00:37So you're right.
02:00:37The place that I actually think is doing the worst at this is online.
02:00:43It's streaming culture and it's YouTube because there are not many reasonable voices that do
02:00:50big plays on social media.
02:00:54There's just not.
02:00:54Wouldn't you count yourself among those reasonable voices?
02:00:58Aren't you a big platform?
02:00:59I would, yeah.
02:01:00But I think if you're talking about people who are genuinely engaging with the issues
02:01:04of boys and men and of mating and dating and birth rates and stuff like that, it's certainly
02:01:10in the minority to be a part of the gentle manosphere than it is to be a part of sort
02:01:14of militant, aggressive feminism or to be a part of classic-
02:01:19Reactionary anti-feminism.
02:01:20Exactly.
02:01:20Masculinism.
02:01:21Yeah.
02:01:22It's not superbly sexy.
02:01:25You know, when I sort of look around at whatever motley weird Avengers group that I've got,
02:01:32it's like me, you, Arthur Brooks, Scott Galloway, Mack and Murphy, William Costello, Rob Henderson,
02:01:40maybe Andrew Thomas.
02:01:41Like it is, it's a Alexander Date psych, but he's sort of stepped away from things now.
02:01:49It's, I'm not, it would be Stephen Shore kind of, but he's not really talking to men.
02:01:53Like, you know, it really sort of runs flat pretty quick.
02:01:56I don't know who else is engaging with this stuff.
02:02:00And then when you were to look at who does fucking huge plays that push the narrative
02:02:07in a much more bombastic way, like it's-
02:02:10I don't know.
02:02:11I mean, the long run way to win this is just to keep doing it, Chris.
02:02:17All right, I think this whole idea that there needs to be this kind of huge play is going
02:02:21to change.
02:02:21This is going to change slowly.
02:02:22And I also think we should give a little bit of credit to some of the people consuming
02:02:26this content.
02:02:27I think a lot of young men in particular are perfectly willing to listen to this conversation
02:02:31and agree or disagree with us, but probably agree that we're having a good faith conversation
02:02:35as you do with others and realize that that is different to what they're going to get from
02:02:39certain other producers.
02:02:41Right.
02:02:41I go there if I want a quick laugh or an eye roll or whatever, but I come here if I want
02:02:46a more serious conversation.
02:02:47And then if I get sufficiently enticed, I'll go and read some of the AIBM's policy briefs,
02:02:51right?
02:02:51No question it's going to go viral.
02:02:54It doesn't get any better than that.
02:02:55But people are able to be more discerning about the difference between these content types.
02:03:00And if you look at their actual behavior and what's happening, I'm just much more hopeful.
02:03:03But just keep doing the work.
02:03:05And then over time, I don't know if this is going to be a good example or not, but I have,
02:03:10although he put money on his reading list, not always been thrilled with the way President
02:03:14Obama has talked about this issue, especially in the run-ups of the last election.
02:03:18But on the podcast he did with his wife not long ago, he said, and I quote, we've quite
02:03:23rightly invested in the girls, create a level playing field so that we can have equality.
02:03:28We have not been as intentional about investing in the boys.
02:03:33And that has been a mistake.
02:03:35And people are starting to recognize that.
02:03:38When Obama is saying that now, of course, the only bit that got covered from that podcast
02:03:44was the brief discussion about their so-called marital difficulties in the first three minutes.
02:03:48The remaining one hour long conversation about the challenges of boys and men that he had
02:03:53with his wife and his wife's brother, whose name I've forgotten, that didn't get covered.
02:04:00But it's there.
02:04:00And so I just think bit by bit, person by person, governor by governor.
02:04:05Ruben Gallier goes out there with his very episode by episode.
02:04:10And because it's actually what people want in the end.
02:04:14Also because it's the truth.
02:04:15The truth will, in the end, I do think it's, and people can tell the difference between
02:04:19something that's truthful and not.
02:04:21Heck yeah.
02:04:21Richard Reeves, ladies and gentlemen.
02:04:22Richard, where should people go to keep up to date with whatever you've got going?
02:04:25Well, those policy briefs I mentioned are all out.
02:04:26Stop trying to push your policy.
02:04:28No one's reading your fucking-
02:04:29Our policy brief on sports betting is the best piece of policy work out there on the very
02:04:34live issue of sports betting.
02:04:35So aibm.org.
02:04:37Cool.
02:04:38Richard, I appreciate you.
02:04:38So fun.
02:04:39Goodbye, everybody.
02:04:40Dude.
02:04:41Yes.
02:04:42So good.
02:04:43Get a go.
02:04:44That was so fun.
02:04:47It was.
02:04:47Thank you very much for tuning in.
02:04:50If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply.
02:04:55It thinks you're going to like this one even more.
02:04:58Go on, press it.

Key Takeaway

Mainstream political recognition of the challenges facing boys and men has transitioned from non-existent to concrete policy action, as evidenced by state-level commissions and health strategies, though achieving long-term institutional stability remains a critical ongoing goal.

Highlights

Serious political figures are now actively pursuing policy initiatives for boys and men, marking a shift from the previous era where the topic was ignored.

Governor Newsom of California signed an executive order requiring plans to assist boys and men in K-12 education, employment, and mental health.

Virginia is advancing the first state-level commission on boys and men to sit alongside the existing commission on women and girls.

Data indicates that full-time working fathers and mothers perform an "amazingly similar" total work week of about 60 hours when combining paid labor and unpaid household tasks.

Research shows the number of boys fighting in school has halved over the last few decades, contradicting narratives of increasing violence.

The American Institute for Boys and Men is actively holding policymakers accountable to specific commitments, such as increasing male involvement in mental health care and mentoring.

Timeline

Mainstream Political Recognition

  • Policymakers are no longer avoiding the discussion around the decline of boys and men.
  • Governors in Maryland, Utah, California, and Michigan have initiated serious efforts to promote male welfare.
  • Two bills focused on men's health and fatherhood have recently been introduced to Congress.

The political landscape has fundamentally shifted, moving away from a period where advocates were shouting into the wilderness. High-profile figures like Governor Newsom have translated this awareness into executive orders targeting K-12 education, employment, and mental health. This shift is partly driven by electoral necessity, as the 2024 election highlighted significant losses among young male voters.

Institutionalizing Support for Men

  • Efforts to help boys and men are becoming institutionalized rather than just cultural talking points.
  • Virginia is creating a commission on boys and men to sit alongside the commission on women and girls.
  • Successful advocacy requires holding politicians accountable to specific, measurable outcomes over time.

To ensure progress lasts beyond current political trends, the focus is on creating permanent government infrastructure. Establishing commissions and dedicated health offices ensures that male-specific issues remain at the policymaking table. The goal is to move these topics into the boring, mainstream category of governance, much like established programs for other demographics.

The Trap of Grievance-Based Activism

  • Activists often struggle to accept wins because their identity is psychologically tethered to their cause's failure.
  • Concept creep, such as the massive increase in the usage of the word "racism" despite contrary trends, delegitimizes causes.
  • The lag between developing a media narrative and it hitting the screen often leaves content out of touch with current cultural realities.

Many advocates resist success because they fear losing their purpose or funding if they no longer have a dire problem to solve. This leads to "concept creep" and the pursuit of smaller dragons, which ultimately makes the cause less legitimate. Furthermore, long lead times in documentary and media production mean that by the time content is released, the cultural context has often shifted away from the original premise.

Material Problems and Cultural Framing

  • Systemic issues like falling literacy rates and employment barriers require structural intervention.
  • Deficit framing, which characterizes young men as the problem, is fundamentally counterproductive.
  • Young men are starving for good-faith engagement that acknowledges their struggles without treating them as villains.

Structural changes in education, employment, and mental health are the necessary foundations for meaningful progress. Current narratives often rely on deficit framing, such as the concept of "toxic masculinity," which gives men a list of what to avoid without offering a positive vision of manhood. This creates a cultural vacuum that is currently being filled by disparate, often unhelpful, online figures.

Reevaluating Parenting and Data

  • Society must signal to young men that they are needed for their unique contributions.
  • Full-time working parents currently contribute a total of approximately 60 hours per week each when combining paid and unpaid work.
  • Bad social science, such as misinterpreted housework statistics, undermines the credibility of important social advocacy.

The message "we need you" is vital for young men, emphasizing that their manhood is a feature rather than a bug. Analysis of time-use data clarifies that while mothers and fathers split duties differently, total work hours in dual-earner households are strikingly similar. Relying on simplistic headlines that ignore these data points makes advocacy efforts easy targets for criticism.

The Future of Mating and Demographics

  • Political polarization is actively discouraging dating and reducing the development of essential relational skills.
  • Fertility declines are likely driven by the rising age of first birth and "timing" problems rather than just workforce entry.
  • Delaying first-time parenthood creates a ratchet effect that is difficult to reverse because it feels like falling behind in "real world" progress.

The mating market is heavily impacted by the increasing age at which people feel ready for parenthood. This timing shift affects fertility rates across all nations and political systems. The current economic "ratchet" makes delaying family formation feel safer for the individual, yet this creates long-term structural demographic challenges that society has yet to solve.

Fatherhood as a Male Institution

  • Fatherhood remains a uniquely transformative male institution that provides essential pro-social scripts.
  • The increase in direct child care performed by modern fathers is a significant positive trend.
  • There is no evidence for a systemic "thumb on the scale" against men in higher education admissions.

Becoming a father changes men's behavior and brain chemistry in ways that are deeply pro-social. Despite the narrative of a male crisis, data shows that modern dads are doing more hands-on parenting than previous generations. While higher education skews female, this is not the result of discriminatory bias, but rather a complex shift that universities are actively trying to rectify.

Pessimism as an Intellectual Trap

  • Pessimism acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy and serves as a form of intellectual snobbery.
  • Young men are increasingly identifying family and parenthood as key life goals.
  • The "culture war" is often a peripheral narrative compared to how ordinary people are actually adapting.

The constant focus on societal decline is a marketing-driven industry that ignores the actual resilience of ordinary people. Data from the Institute for Family Studies shows that the vast majority of young men desire marriage and fatherhood. The path forward involves moving away from ideological traps and toward a future where society intentionally invests in the flourishing of both boys and men.

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