00:00:00What has changed or how has the debate about boys and men adapted since we last spoke?
00:00:06What's new?
00:00:07I think when we last spoke, I was still frustrated that there was no political space for this.
00:00:12I think people have become aware things aren't great with boys and men.
00:00:16I was raised awareness of it, but I still felt, maybe particularly on the center-left,
00:00:20that it was difficult to actually do anything about it.
00:00:23And that's changed.
00:00:26I used to say, one of my talking points used to be
00:00:28that it was very hard to get people, especially on the political left,
00:00:31to actually do anything about this problem.
00:00:32First of all, we have to get them to talk about it.
00:00:34A, it's a problem.
00:00:35B, we can talk about it.
00:00:36And then C, we can do something about it.
00:00:38And I can't say that anymore.
00:00:40We've got governors, Governor Newsom, Governor Whitmer, Governor Wes Moore in Maryland,
00:00:46also Governor Spencer Cox in Utah, all of whom have got pretty serious initiatives now
00:00:50to try and promote boys and men.
00:00:52We've got, as I'm speaking to you now, two bills have just been introduced to Congress
00:00:56to create a men's health strategy in office and to help men with their mental health after
00:01:02fatherhood, right?
00:01:02The men matter bill.
00:01:04And there are a bunch of stuff happening in states.
00:01:05So I can't credibly say anymore, you know what?
00:01:09No one's paying any attention to this.
00:01:11I can't sort of say anymore, like you're shouting into the wilderness.
00:01:14And I used to say, like, I'm banging my head against the brick wall,
00:01:16especially on the Democrat side of the aisle.
00:01:18That is just not true anymore.
00:01:20And there's some politics behind that, of course.
00:01:22I will, I think I have to be honest that I felt like I was banging my head against the
00:01:26brick wall with Democrats until November, 2024.
00:01:30And then there was an election.
00:01:33And then my inbox started filling up with Democrats.
00:01:37Because they saw how much they'd fallen behind with men, especially young men.
00:01:40I mean, they can read a poll.
00:01:41And there's no question that one of the things that happened in the '24 election was that
00:01:46Democrats lost men and especially young men in a very, very big way.
00:01:50And I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the Democrats I've just mentioned and that
00:01:53we're working with are very often also mentioned as potential presidential candidates.
00:01:57And so they've realized that we can't win without young men.
00:02:00So I'm not going to lie.
00:02:02I think there's a political dimension to this, but I don't, unlike many people, I don't blame
00:02:07politicians for doing politics, right?
00:02:09So some of the more men's rightsy people have said about Governor Newsom's initiative, for
00:02:13example, which is a serious initiative.
00:02:15What is it?
00:02:15So he signed an executive order last year saying, telling his administration to come back to
00:02:20him with comprehensive plans to help boys and men in K-12 education, employment, and
00:02:25especially mental health.
00:02:26He's already done a male service challenge.
00:02:28He's done a call to get 10,000 more men in California into service, into mentoring, into
00:02:33coaching.
00:02:34They're following that up with a big push on getting more men into teaching.
00:02:39Like male role models in the classroom would be a good idea.
00:02:42And it was very interesting that the men's rightsy folks, if I can use that language for
00:02:45now, or the more and more conservative side of it, they're just like, oh, he's just doing
00:02:50politics.
00:02:51He's just realized that the Democrats have lost young men.
00:02:53And so he's just doing stuff to try and win their votes back.
00:02:55And why is that a bad thing?
00:02:58Isn't that how democracies are supposed to work?
00:03:01And so I just can't say it anymore.
00:03:03I think there's real progress on this.
00:03:06It's serious.
00:03:06Not all of it's making it into the culture war, but that doesn't mean that it's not good.
00:03:11In fact, most of it's not in the culture war.
00:03:13It's not being discussed generally in podcasts or even on cable TV, but it doesn't mean it's
00:03:19not happening.
00:03:20How much is it?
00:03:21Is it a good first step or is this a really significant move?
00:03:24It's a significant move in the sense that it's the first time we've seen serious political
00:03:30figures and policymakers making serious efforts to address the problem.
00:03:34Right.
00:03:34Okay.
00:03:34So it's a significant move in the same way as firing the first shot of a war is a significant
00:03:40move.
00:03:40It's the first thing that happens.
00:03:43And from that, it suggests that more will come after.
00:03:45That's right.
00:03:45So the question is, is there substance behind it?
00:03:47Not sufficient yet.
00:03:48No.
00:03:48And I think part of my role and part of my institute's role is to hold these people to
00:03:52account.
00:03:52Is to say, okay.
00:03:53You said you were going to do that.
00:03:54Yeah.
00:03:54You said you're going to do this.
00:03:55Great.
00:03:56Six months later, we're going to be like, did you do that?
00:03:58Where is the initiative to get more men into mental health care, Governor?
00:04:02What did happen?
00:04:03Did you get 10,000 more men into service, Governor Newsom?
00:04:06Did you increase access to mental health care and paternity leave, Governor Moore?
00:04:12Yes or no?
00:04:13Right.
00:04:13So I'm certainly not saying it's enough, but it is a lot more than we had three or four
00:04:18years ago.
00:04:19I mean, three or four years ago, you couldn't even get people, particularly on that side
00:04:21of the aisle, even to talk about this problem.
00:04:22When did your book come out?
00:04:232022.
00:04:24Okay.
00:04:25So pretty much bang on that.
00:04:26And when did Obama endorse it?
00:04:272024.
00:04:28Okay.
00:04:29So you're sort of tracking this journey over time.
00:04:33Yeah.
00:04:33And honestly, it's been for us, then we suddenly got a pivot and say, okay, we've now got
00:04:38policymakers coming to us saying, okay, I got it.
00:04:40What shall I do?
00:04:41Wait, wait, wait, hold on.
00:04:42That was on our 2029 plan, right?
00:04:44Didn't quite expect to catch up this quickly.
00:04:47And that's obviously a good problem to have, but we have had to pivot and say, okay, how
00:04:51do we actually help these governors or these senators or these legislators do something
00:04:55about it?
00:04:56And my worry honestly, is that this will just have a moment.
00:04:58Either it will be driven by the politics or it'd be driven by suddenly there's this
00:05:03issue, right?
00:05:03Boys and men are being discussed in a way that they weren't before.
00:05:05Sexy to talk about it.
00:05:06Yeah.
00:05:07Where are we going to be five years from now?
00:05:08Five years from now, it might be, I don't know, something else, right?
00:05:10Because these things do have their moments.
00:05:12And the question I'm asking myself is what will I be able to appoint to that's still
00:05:16standing, that's still here?
00:05:18And so actually Virginia is a good example.
00:05:20Virginia is, if the governor, new governor signs it, going to create the first commission
00:05:25on boys and men to sit alongside the commission on women and girls.
00:05:28Now it's just a government commission in a state.
00:05:30You might say great.
00:05:32But what that means is that the issues of boys and men will be at the table in policymaking
00:05:38in Virginia in a way that they weren't before.
00:05:40And that will still be there five years from now if that happens, right?
00:05:43That's going to get line item.
00:05:44It's going to be real.
00:05:45It's going to be institutionalized.
00:05:47And my whole thing, I think we've talked about this before is I want this issue to become
00:05:50boring.
00:05:51I want this issue to be mainstream.
00:05:53Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:53Guys are falling behind.
00:05:54We've heard it.
00:05:55We've heard it.
00:05:55Like we know we're working on it.
00:05:57We've got it.
00:05:57Kind of.
00:05:58Yeah.
00:05:58And I want people to say, well, that's why we've got this office of men's health.
00:06:01And that's why we've created this committee.
00:06:02That's why we've got this big push on male teachers.
00:06:04We're doing it.
00:06:04We're doing it.
00:06:04What are you talking about?
00:06:05It's mum coming upstairs and telling you to clean your room when you've got the hoover.
00:06:08Beds already made.
00:06:09Yeah, exactly.
00:06:10You said that the men's rightsy types don't actually want to win.
00:06:15What do you mean?
00:06:15Well, I've just noticed that when something does happen, it was very nearly a commission
00:06:21in Washington state.
00:06:22I've mentioned the governor's moves.
00:06:24It's that sometimes what will happen with the folks, some of whom have been in this field
00:06:29for a long time, and I would say that they come at this from a more conservative or sometimes
00:06:33even a reactionary perspective.
00:06:35It's like they tend to dismiss these efforts.
00:06:39They'll say, oh, sure, there's been an executive order.
00:06:41Sure, they're creating a commission on boys and men, but they'll put their people on it
00:06:44or they don't really mean it.
00:06:45Are these people inside of government the men's rightsies?
00:06:47No, no, no.
00:06:48These are advocates.
00:06:49These are activists.
00:06:50Okay, like commentators.
00:06:51Yes, or people that have been like, there are various groups out there.
00:06:54They tend to be small and not that well-funded and honestly quite often fueled by grievances.
00:06:59Not necessarily illegitimate grievances.
00:07:01I don't want to be misunderstood, but I'm on various conversations with them.
00:07:06And I heard this rabbi, David Wolpe is his name on a podcast the other day, and he said
00:07:11something really struck me.
00:07:12He said activists are always psychologically reluctant to succeed because there's something
00:07:21about your identity and your purpose that is tied up to your own failure.
00:07:25If you succeed, you have to start saying, great, we've done it.
00:07:30Now I have to find some new identity.
00:07:32If you've actually wrapped up your identity in the sense that the whole of society is stacked
00:07:36against men.
00:07:37There's been a feminist conspiracy against men.
00:07:39No one cares against men.
00:07:40I've spent decades saying this.
00:07:42And then suddenly people do start caring about men and they do start doing stuff about men.
00:07:45You've either got to say, oh, that's not true anymore.
00:07:48And change your identity or say, no, no, that can't be true.
00:07:52I think that's true for like LGBTQ activists.
00:07:54Basically people can't take a win anymore, right?
00:08:00People can't say that's a win.
00:08:02It may not be perfect, but it's a win.
00:08:04Has to be glass half empty rather than glass half full.
00:08:08I think one of the reasons for that is that people worry if they are too grateful for a
00:08:13success, it's not going to continue to push the purpose forward.
00:08:17It's the same reason that hard charging overachiever type A people refuse to let themselves feel
00:08:24too much pleasure when they succeed because my displeasure is exactly the fuel that keeps
00:08:29me going.
00:08:30And it's not too dissimilar with the climate crisis.
00:08:34Not enough is done because, well, maybe if I stop now, even if lots has been done, it'll
00:08:39slow down or it'll reverse or people will forget.
00:08:42So now that we've got the front foot, we must keep going.
00:08:44That would be the more virtuous way to put it.
00:08:46But I also agree.
00:08:47There's a fascinating graph.
00:08:49If you look at the uses of the word racism in the New York Times over the last 20 years
00:08:53and you compare it to how much racism is actually happening, the two lines just have nothing
00:08:59in common and going completely opposite directions.
00:09:00It's like some insane multiples times increase in the word racism.
00:09:04Lots of people made their careers around identifying racism.
00:09:08So you concept creep out things like racism.
00:09:12Yeah.
00:09:12You end up slaying smaller and smaller dragons.
00:09:14Yes.
00:09:15Which makes your cause less and less legitimate.
00:09:17Yeah.
00:09:17Which makes it easier for your opponents then to say, actually, that's kind of silly.
00:09:21And so in the end, I don't think it works.
00:09:24And I said that I don't want to, I want to be balanced about this because I remember getting
00:09:28an email, I think from the human rights, whatever they're called, HRA.
00:09:32And it was something like along the lines of there's never been a worse time to be trans
00:09:37in America.
00:09:37And this was two months after Gorsuch had written his really, I think, incredible civil rights
00:09:45victory to include trans people under the sex discrimination law.
00:09:48I mean, that was a massive civil rights victory for the trans community.
00:09:50And it was almost like, yeah, when we did get that.
00:09:52But look at this terrible thing over here.
00:09:54And I don't want to be misunderstood.
00:09:55I don't want to suggest there aren't still challenges for trans people, but the idea that
00:09:59after extraordinary civil rights victory, I mean, really no one saw that coming, especially
00:10:04from that Supreme court.
00:10:05They couldn't just take that win.
00:10:06And then you have to send out an email, funding saying it's never been a worst time.
00:10:10Is that true?
00:10:12I'm not saying it's a left right thing.
00:10:15It's a, this so attached to the idea that you can't win.
00:10:20And I've really noticed it in my space too.
00:10:22And it's something I think about a lot in my own work is to try and, I really want to up
00:10:25date my own view of the world and make sure that if good stuff's happening, I don't get
00:10:30trapped in this kind of rut.
00:10:32I want to win.
00:10:33I want us to become mainstream and that will mean like, I'll have less to say, but that's
00:10:40good.
00:10:40You want to put yourself out of a job.
00:10:41Like the best dating app would be one that's designed to be deleted.
00:10:45Shouldn't we all want to do that?
00:10:47You should design to be deleted.
00:10:49It's sort of hard, right?
00:10:50But that requires you not to wrap your identity up.
00:10:53So there's a line from Ben Francis, the founder and CEO of Gymshark.
00:10:58And he said when your aspirations for the business are bigger than your aspirations for yourself,
00:11:03then you can be a proper leader.
00:11:05And his point there was that he stepped, he was the founder.
00:11:07Then he became CEO.
00:11:08Then he stepped down as CEO and got some guy from Reebok in who could take them from whatever
00:11:13a hundred million to whatever billion.
00:11:15And then Ben came back in because he was needed at a different time.
00:11:17And he was just happy to do what the mission called him to do.
00:11:20And yeah, if you don't have a grievance anymore, and we saw the rug get pulled out from BLM
00:11:28with this regard, right?
00:11:30It was, some people sounded the alarm early.
00:11:32There's a lot of money there and we can't really work out where it's gone.
00:11:35And they all live in really nice houses.
00:11:37And then it took a lot of pressure.
00:11:39And then eventually that's kind of dissolved.
00:11:41And I think it's done damage to putting forward the rights of black people and minorities in
00:11:48the modern world, because now everything's been tarred with the same brush.
00:11:51That's the problem is that you actually just become too easy a target, right?
00:11:55And you, the last thing you ever want to do is do your enemy's work for you, right?
00:11:59By just being bad, right?
00:12:01Playing into the caricature that they have of you.
00:12:04Exactly.
00:12:05Which is the big, I heard you talk about that as a big fear.
00:12:07But I'm going to turn the tables a bit and ask you, because you have been thinking about
00:12:12talking about this issue of boys and men for many years as well.
00:12:18How do you think the debate's moved just in the last two to three years?
00:12:22There's definitely been more of a mainstream recognition of it.
00:12:29To me, I have to certainly sort of do a little bit of breath work when I read one of these
00:12:37headlines, because I'm trying to work out, is this lip service being paid to blowing with
00:12:42the wind of a cool topic at the moment?
00:12:45Is it kind of like a disclaimer?
00:12:48Well, we did talk, you must remember, we released a four part series in Politico on the crisis
00:12:54of boys and men, by the way, all written by women.
00:12:57Not my piece in Politico, but yes, I take your point.
00:13:00They did the Christine Ember had theirs and hers came out at the same time.
00:13:04Not one was written by a man.
00:13:05If it was why are men talking about women's bodies, that would have probably been an issue
00:13:09had it been reversed.
00:13:10So I'm trying to work out, okay, there's definitely more headlines about it.
00:13:15That I see in the press.
00:13:17I'm not tapped into what's happening in Washington, what's happening on the policy side.
00:13:21It would probably be good.
00:13:22I know that you guys are promoting it, but it would be good if there was a way to get
00:13:26that out more that, you know, good news about men newsletter or something to really allow
00:13:31that to sort of make people who care about the issues of boys and men not feel like it's
00:13:37a permanent losing battle or like all of their efforts.
00:13:42The best that they can hope for is a Washington Post headline once every three months or something
00:13:47like that.
00:13:47We've got Ross Kemp just released a three or five part series about young men.
00:13:53Louis Theroux's documentary just came out on Netflix.
00:13:57Adolescence did so much fucking damage, I think, with the way that it tried to frame things,
00:14:08with the language that it used.
00:14:09Not so much adolescence itself, I think, but the way it was picked up by and interpreted.
00:14:13Well, that's correct.
00:14:16Yeah, it was purposefully left up to interpretation.
00:14:19There was a lot of vacuum in there, and I know that at least some of the guys that helped
00:14:24to contribute to it.
00:14:24Some of the showrunners I feel like had a bit of an agenda and actually did have some things
00:14:30they wanted to put across that I didn't really like.
00:14:32But yeah, it was purposefully left open to interpretation.
00:14:36Unfortunately, it's like a Rorschach test.
00:14:39It was like an ideological Rorschach test for the world.
00:14:42And what did almost everybody think?
00:14:43They all thought the same thing.
00:14:45All the mainstream thought the same thing.
00:14:47What was it?
00:14:48Kemi Badenoch was being pulled up for having not watched it as if it was a fucking documentary.
00:14:52I know.
00:14:53It's the first time in British history that a political leader has been criticized for
00:14:57not watching television.
00:14:58Do you see this, Jared?
00:15:00Mate, it was fucking insane.
00:15:02She gets pulled up on morning TV by saying you need to watch this.
00:15:09What do you mean?
00:15:11It wasn't even reality TV, let alone a documentary.
00:15:14It was you need to watch this fictional portrayal.
00:15:17Wow.
00:15:19It was wild.
00:15:19Of the show adolescence.
00:15:20Right, so the UK is a good example.
00:15:23I've actually, since we spoke, set up a think tank there as well.
00:15:27And we're working quite closely over there.
00:15:28And it's like, it is, you do feel, always one step back, one forward.
00:15:32And a lot, some of the stuff that gets the most attention is not necessarily the stuff
00:15:36that either should or is most important.
00:15:39So simultaneously the UK has released the first ever men's health strategy.
00:15:43And it's a very good document.
00:15:45Whereas Streetings kind of put that forward.
00:15:46They had a very serious debate in parliament on international men's day.
00:15:51And actually all of the MPs told a dad joke at the beginning of the thing.
00:15:55This organization called Dad Shift did that and it's absolutely fucking amazing.
00:15:58That's very cool.
00:15:59It's so cool.
00:16:00Wes Streeting did it as well.
00:16:01It's very fun.
00:16:03It was an amazing debate about men's mental health, about what's happening.
00:16:07They're doing a summit on this.
00:16:08Were you happy with it?
00:16:09I was very happy with it.
00:16:10But then the way that they were talking about adolescence wasn't great for a while.
00:16:15So it's never going to be a straight line.
00:16:20And the other thing that happens is, particularly with things like adolescence,
00:16:23and I suspect with these new documentaries too,
00:16:25I've really noticed this is that the lag between the idea to the screen is so great
00:16:31that by the time it lands, it's out of touch with where the culture currently is.
00:16:35Correct.
00:16:35So it feels like, yeah, that's maybe how people were thinking three years ago,
00:16:39but it's not how it feels now.
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00:17:47Louis filmed the documentary from the start of 25 until the middle end of 25.
00:17:55But that means that they were thinking about it through 24.
00:17:5724.
00:17:58And you go, this is a fast moving,
00:18:00Ross Kemp is probably almost spurred on by the adolescence thing, I think.
00:18:07And you know, he sits down opposite William Costello and he says,
00:18:11"So incels, they kill a lot of people, right?"
00:18:15And William says, "We think that the total number of incel killings worldwide
00:18:22is the upper bound five."
00:18:25And Ross Kemp looks like he's been punched in the head.
00:18:29And you go, "Five per day?"
00:18:33He goes, "No, five, five, total five."
00:18:36So is the territory going to be gained equally?
00:18:41No.
00:18:41What would I say?
00:18:46The gender wars or the sex wars, I guess,
00:18:50of what's happening inside of the home, what's happening with men's roles.
00:18:54Those things, that is going to be downstream from all of the structural changes that need to be made.
00:19:00Like how are we doing with boys' literacy rates, which I know are just falling through the floor.
00:19:05Like they can't read, boys can't read.
00:19:07What's happening with getting them into education or higher education or apprenticeships?
00:19:12And then what's happening with employment?
00:19:14And then what's happening with your place in society and fatherhood and all the rest of it?
00:19:18Like all of these, the issues that I think matter most, that people feel the most,
00:19:23which is, "Well, where's my meaning?
00:19:25And what's my job like?
00:19:26And what's my income like?"
00:19:27All of those are after effects of the stuff that comes before it.
00:19:32And that is education, that's employment, that's mental health support.
00:19:36That's all of the systemic kind of, like your work.
00:19:39And it almost feels-
00:19:41Did you just call my work systemic and boring?
00:19:43Yes.
00:19:43Because if you did, I'm so happy.
00:19:45Yes.
00:19:45I've made my fucking day.
00:19:46I've always wanted to be off my guard.
00:19:49This is like Hallelujah for me.
00:19:50I feel like a guy who's in a relay race and I'm the last dude.
00:19:56I'm the last dude because this sort of stuff, the way that I speak and the place that I can
00:20:01have the biggest impact is actually much closer to the end, I think, in some ways that if we're
00:20:08going to talk about what is the role, maybe not that, I can definitely influence the way
00:20:15that people think and the approaches that guys and girls take to the sort of structure of
00:20:22their lives.
00:20:22But ultimately the big movers that come before that really lay the groundwork are going to
00:20:27be more on the side of what's happening in school, what's happening in employment, what's
00:20:31happening-
00:20:31Right.
00:20:31Well, I think actually it's interesting you put it that way because in some ways I think
00:20:35you're kind of at the back and the front of the relay because-
00:20:38I'm both of the guys in the human centipede.
00:20:40It's sort of doing the work of both, I feel like, and I'm somewhere in the middle.
00:20:44I'm like the rest of the-
00:20:45You can be the middle of the human side.
00:20:46Can I be the middle of that?
00:20:47I don't know.
00:20:47This analogy is working for me.
00:20:49But anyway, so because you have to have space for a good faith conversation about what's
00:20:57actually going on with boys and men and a good faith investigation of that.
00:21:01And you also need young men, especially, to hear that conversation and to feel like we're
00:21:07talking about this stuff in a way that takes them seriously and that says they have problems,
00:21:11not that they are the problem.
00:21:12And so I do think that these sorts of spaces are important for creating the conditions under
00:21:18which policy makers and politicians and others can then do their work, which will then hopefully
00:21:22address the material problems.
00:21:23I don't think we're not going to change some of these material issues overnight, but I think
00:21:28that we could at least do no harm.
00:21:30And for too long, the deficit framing around this issue of young men-
00:21:35What's deficit framing?
00:21:35I mean, we start with what's wrong with them.
00:21:38So classic example, of course, would be toxic masculinity, which I think we've talked about
00:21:42before.
00:21:42And just like, let's start with that.
00:21:43Let's start with not making you toxic, right?
00:21:46Or what's wrong with boys in school?
00:21:47They don't try.
00:21:48And even my friend Scott Galloway falls into this a little bit when he says, oh, the daughters
00:21:57are a pen or a lawyer, and then the guy's in the basement vaping and playing video games
00:22:01or whatever.
00:22:02There's just this way of talking about young men that really suggests that they're the
00:22:06problem rather than looking at the kind of systems around them.
00:22:10And I will just say, given the young men I know who listen to you and to others, that
00:22:14this hunger just for honest disagreement, good faith engagement around the problem is huge.
00:22:21And so I do think we have to set the table in a way that allows us to do the work.
00:22:26So cultural stuffs both before and after the policy.
00:22:30I get what you mean.
00:22:31I think the challenge that you have when speaking to men about the balance between ambition and
00:22:36compassion.
00:22:36I know you can be more, but you are enough already.
00:22:39We need to do things to help you, but you also don't want to be a victim.
00:22:43Especially for men, it comes into contact inside of their minds because nobody wants to feel
00:22:48like they're not doing it on their own, especially if you're a guy.
00:22:51Where's the heroism in that?
00:22:52And I think what Scott's sort of trying to point the finger at there is he's saying you
00:22:58need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
00:23:00Right.
00:23:01And for many men, that is true.
00:23:03I had this idea earlier this year called advice hyper-responders.
00:23:07So advice doesn't distribute evenly like medicine.
00:23:11It distributes like alcohol.
00:23:12The people that are already drunk on it take too much when the people who need to loosen
00:23:16up don't have a sick.
00:23:17I think you've talked about this in the context of #MeToo, haven't you?
00:23:19Yes, exactly.
00:23:20The guys that are told that they shouldn't be pushy with women, the nervous ones take
00:23:24it to heart and the dudes that were blowing through boundaries just disregarded entirely.
00:23:29A person who is already loading too much responsibility and working too hard, he has just worked harder
00:23:36and goes, I knew that I wasn't working hard enough.
00:23:38I must push more.
00:23:40Whereas the guy that is laying on the couch, and there is a huge, what is it, 14 million
00:23:44men who are...
00:23:46Not in education, employment, or training.
00:23:47Yeah, exactly.
00:23:48Nicholas...
00:23:49Eberstadt.
00:23:50Eberstadt.
00:23:51Eberstadt.
00:23:54Eberstadt.
00:23:54Yeah, he corrected me.
00:23:55Really?
00:23:56Yeah.
00:23:56God, I've been getting it wrong for years.
00:23:57It's fine.
00:23:59Look, you're right that we've gone through this period of informing men of how to be men
00:24:05by telling them everything that they shouldn't do.
00:24:09That's right.
00:24:09A long list of don'ts.
00:24:10Yeah, it doesn't inform what you should actually move toward.
00:24:13And the vacancy is hugely detrimental.
00:24:15And if you're going to complain about what men are doing, but only tell them what they
00:24:21shouldn't be doing without a replacement, you can't complain when people step in and fill
00:24:26that gap, whether you don't like Rogan or me or Peterson or Tate or Nick Fuentes or fucking
00:24:32Myron or whoever, whoever it is that you do or don't like, whoever is or is not unspeakable.
00:24:36If you don't like Aragon from fucking Lord of the Rings, like if there's a vacuum that
00:24:41will get sucked in because there's a market to speak to people.
00:24:44And if nothing else, even if people aren't speaking to it, if you don't service the market,
00:24:49someone will reverse engineer another message to become the thing that they're missing.
00:24:53Like if you can't eat food, you'll eat tree bark instead because it's the closest thing
00:24:56that's approximating food.
00:24:58Yeah.
00:24:58So there's a certain naivety in thinking that we don't have to answer the question, what
00:25:02does it mean to be a man?
00:25:03Correct.
00:25:04Because every culture has had to answer that question.
00:25:06And so the question is not, is there going to be a question?
00:25:11It's who's giving the answer.
00:25:13And if you don't like the answers, as you say, that some of the men are getting, then what's
00:25:16the alternative?
00:25:17And so you can't just vacate the ground and then complain.
00:25:21You can't give up the ground and then complain that somebody else takes it.
00:25:24And that's exactly what's happened.
00:25:25Mainstream culture just basically gave up the ground and said, we're only going to talk about
00:25:29masculinity if we put the prefix toxic in front of it.
00:25:32In fact, you can't even really use the word masculinity now with young men because it codes
00:25:40so left.
00:25:40It codes the left because it's come with the modifier toxic.
00:25:43Even if you use it as just on its own.
00:25:47Even only, yeah, so what young men have heard, they've only heard it in that context now.
00:25:51And so you've got to, even the words really count here in terms of which, how does it signal?
00:25:56And it's really interesting to me that the word masculinity itself now to a lot of young
00:26:00men, they've only heard that coming out of the males of people who are about to say something
00:26:04bad about it.
00:26:05Right.
00:26:05And sometimes they'll say, all they'll say healthy masculinity, right?
00:26:10Implying, of course, against unhealthy.
00:26:12That normal masculinity without the modifier is unhealthy.
00:26:15Just don't hear it the other way around.
00:26:16Right.
00:26:16And so they know what's coming when you hear you talk that way.
00:26:20And I do think you're right that there's this huge cultural vacuum.
00:26:23I want to come back to something you said a minute ago, which is like, and I struggle with
00:26:28this a bit in my own work and in some of the work that policymakers are doing, which is
00:26:33you don't want to say to young men, especially, we're here to help you.
00:26:37Poor you, right?
00:26:39Look at you struggling.
00:26:40Poor you.
00:26:40What we want to say is we need you.
00:26:44That's the message I think most young men need is we need you.
00:26:47Society still needs you.
00:26:49The tribe still needs you.
00:26:49Your family still needs you.
00:26:50Your kids, for the love of God, definitely still need you.
00:26:54We need you.
00:26:56And we also need you in these service offerings.
00:26:58I wrote a thing with Robert Putnam in the Times last year talking about the boy crisis of the
00:27:02early 20th century and how all these civic organizations, boy scouts, boys and girls clubs,
00:27:07big brothers, big sisters were created almost overnight to respond to what was happening
00:27:12with boys in the cities after urbanization.
00:27:15They were staffed by men.
00:27:16There were four boys and there was a huge civic response, but it took men to do it.
00:27:21Whereas all of the youth serving organizations now have way more women volunteers than male
00:27:26volunteers.
00:27:27And of course, I'm not blaming the women who are stepping up to do that work.
00:27:31God bless them.
00:27:32But I am saying if you want to serve boys and young men, you better have some men too.
00:27:37But our men hearing that message, we need you, not despite being men, not as a volunteer,
00:27:43but as a man.
00:27:44We need men, right?
00:27:46It's just not a message.
00:27:46Because you're good.
00:27:47Because you have something to add.
00:27:49Yes, your masculinity, and I've used the word again, your manhood, right?
00:27:55Well, basically we want you because you're a man, not despite being a man.
00:27:59We see you being a man as a feature, not a bug.
00:28:03And I just don't think enough men have colored that.
00:28:05Well, even that, right, the idea of duty, of almost like service turns very quickly into
00:28:14obligation isn't nasty enough of a word that, well, I mean, you know, you should go and
00:28:22do this, as opposed to this is a noble pursuit for you to try and pass on good things and
00:28:27good advice to the next generation of young men.
00:28:30Right.
00:28:30So do we need new language to talk about gender issues then?
00:28:34Femininity, is that also a difficult one to talk about?
00:28:37No, I mean, femininity is hard.
00:28:39I mean, feminism has become quite fraught.
00:28:41Femininity, actually, I would very rarely hear being spoken about other than anybody from
00:28:46the right.
00:28:47Femininity would be pushed as part of a sort of sundress and baking tradwife dream.
00:28:53I don't hear many people from the left talking about it because it's not something to be
00:28:57pedestalized.
00:28:58I would hear masculinity talked about primarily from the left as a cudgel to beat men with,
00:29:04usually with some sort of modifier of toxic or whatever.
00:29:08So yeah, and feminism as well.
00:29:11Manosphere, unfortunately.
00:29:13Well, it was very quickly kind of, feminism was something that previously in the past,
00:29:20I think a lot of people think was pretty...
00:29:23It was a gender equality claim.
00:29:24Yeah, very quickly moved into something else.
00:29:27Actually, it gets increasingly quickly moved into something else when I learn about some
00:29:32of the factions that sort of birthed out of feminism at the very beginning.
00:29:35I was learning about this yesterday.
00:29:36But the manosphere was used to describe a group of people, not necessarily a movement or an
00:29:42ideology.
00:29:43A group of people happened to all agree about it.
00:29:45So maybe the manosphere was never going to be it.
00:29:46I've given you my bit about the three waves of the manosphere, right?
00:29:49It was first wave, which is pick apart your three.
00:29:51Second wave, which was red pill.
00:29:52And then third wave, which originally I was going to say was the gentle manosphere.
00:29:55But I actually think is lux maxing.
00:29:58I think that is going to be the third wave.
00:30:00What?
00:30:01Lux maxing.
00:30:01You think that's the third wave?
00:30:02So here's my theory about lux maxing.
00:30:06Most of the lux maxing guys, if it sticks, because it's only been around for six months,
00:30:11if it sticks and it becomes even more ascendant, and it might do because it's really memeable.
00:30:15If it stays, what it will create is basically a sexier version of the black pill and MGTOW.
00:30:24So it'll be men going their own way.
00:30:26If you look at what the men are coding for, presenting for, it's not for women.
00:30:33They don't care about women all that much at all.
00:30:35They care in as much as women can get them a claim in the eyes of other men.
00:30:39But it is basically, formidable is what they're signaling, height, unbelievably masculinized
00:30:47faces, which if you look at the evidence, most women prefer an either average in terms of
00:30:53masculinization or a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body.
00:30:56That's what they find most attractive.
00:30:58But men think about GigaChad.
00:31:00They think about these protruding cheekbones, insane drawer.
00:31:03Yeah.
00:31:03The mandible.
00:31:04They have that.
00:31:04People put mewing.
00:31:06Mewing.
00:31:06I learned about that the other day.
00:31:08Pushing their tongue into the roof of the mouth.
00:31:09Yeah.
00:31:10Why do they do that?
00:31:11It's to try and create a tighter jawline.
00:31:13You're doing it.
00:31:14Am I doing it?
00:31:15Yeah.
00:31:15You look like a GigaChad.
00:31:16You look like a twat.
00:31:18I look like a twat.
00:31:20Yeah, you do look like a twat.
00:31:22Look, a lot of the most extreme version of male lux maxing basically is a male-to-male
00:31:28transsexual operation.
00:31:30It is taking a man and trying to turn up the caricature.
00:31:34So my thinking about this, if it sticks, what it will be is basically disregard women and
00:31:42just focus on mogging, which is male-to-male intersexual competition.
00:31:47It's trying to be as formidable as possible.
00:31:48Now, you saw this with Ziz 15 years ago in 2010, but he was still obviously very female
00:31:55attraction coded.
00:31:57It was a much more kind of holistic, broey version of this.
00:31:59It was way less autistic.
00:32:01And he had this great line, which was disregard women, acquire dance moves.
00:32:06But it was done in a lol pal kind of way.
00:32:09Whereas this is, this to me feels like genuine disregard of we're not bothered about mating.
00:32:15We're not bothered about getting women.
00:32:16We're not bothered about really anything other than male-to-male intersexual competition.
00:32:20And if that sticks, it's going to become very insular.
00:32:23Well, it won't stick, will it?
00:32:25I mean, the idea that these, these guys are hammering their faces or breaking their bones
00:32:30or doing the thing you just, what I just tried to do, kind of mewing.
00:32:34Yeah, it worked.
00:32:35And they're not interested in women.
00:32:36No, I don't, I think we'll go.
00:32:40Do you see Steven Colbert just did a thing on lux maxing?
00:32:43It's from a very feminist perspective.
00:32:46It's funny as you can imagine, but the whole thing about it.
00:32:48It's worth, it's just worth watching because he goes into it.
00:32:51But I think I just, again, I think I don't want to be empirical about this, but like how
00:32:56many men are we talking about?
00:32:58Like, is it, how long will this last?
00:33:00Will it, will it last?
00:33:01Will it go?
00:33:01Is this the start of a, you know, decades long shift in the gender tectonics or is it just
00:33:07another decades long, but it could stick about for a while and it would definitely put things
00:33:11on the back foot because it's going to be less.
00:33:14I just, I see that, I see it breaking through, I hear people talking about it.
00:33:16I'm not saying it's not happening.
00:33:17And actually we're doing some work on growing issues around body dysmorphia and so on.
00:33:23Which is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next decade.
00:33:26Yeah, I've seen that stat.
00:33:28I, I don't know if that's true or not, but I just always worry about those lines being
00:33:33projected forward, but anyway, it's a real thing.
00:33:35And what I think it speaks to is, I do think I'm lying behind all of these trends, right?
00:33:42Whatever the thing is now, what it will be before is what we're talking about a moment
00:33:45ago was just this guy, John Della Volpe, I don't know if you know him, Polster.
00:33:49He wrote this really nice piece a few months ago where he talked about masculinity vertigo.
00:33:54And which it says basically what's happening to young men is that I call it pinball, but
00:33:59same idea, which is on Monday, what you're being told is the problem is that you're not
00:34:04masculine enough, right?
00:34:05You need to work out more, eat more protein, looks max, be more dominant, et cetera, right?
00:34:11You need to, you need to man up and be more masculine.
00:34:13But the next day, what you're being told is you're too masculine.
00:34:18You need to cry more and eat more salad and go to therapy more and like find your feminine
00:34:24side.
00:34:24And then on Wednesday, you're back to the, so it's just become this very contested and
00:34:27kind of difficult thing right now in a way that just wasn't before.
00:34:31And into that, you'll get looks maxing or you'll get whatever bodies just more fearful.
00:34:35Whatever moral panic people want to put into it, they will.
00:34:40But behind it, what I actually see is just a bunch of men, especially young men, honestly,
00:34:46just trying to figure this out and to be good people and to be good dads and good friends
00:34:52and have a good life.
00:34:53And to matter.
00:34:54And definitely to matter.
00:34:55They want to be wanted.
00:34:56They want to belong.
00:34:57Well, everybody, I mean, like not being needed is fatal to the human condition.
00:35:01But what was that line?
00:35:02You know, I went and searched it.
00:35:03I went and searched for the original source of that line that you gave me two episodes
00:35:08ago, maybe even our first ever episode.
00:35:10The modern family is a myth that makes men tolerably useful.
00:35:17At least one that at least makes men tolerably useful.
00:35:20Jeffrey Dentsch.
00:35:21Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:22And it's actually this good opportunity to say that masculinity, manhood, whatever your
00:35:28words want to look, is always more socially constructed.
00:35:31It's a cultural construct.
00:35:33Same with fatherhood, right?
00:35:35Margaret Mead talked about the invention of fatherhood.
00:35:38Fatherhood is a social invention.
00:35:39And it is just true that the roles, the structures, the scaffolding, the norms, the messages from
00:35:46society, like we have to make men, basically.
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00:37:06This is what I fought Louis about.
00:37:08He pushed back against the idea that women are born with value, men need to create it.
00:37:15And well, what value are men born with?
00:37:19Women have this unbelievable capacity to make the next generation.
00:37:23What do men have?
00:37:25What are they born with?
00:37:26Not in the same way.
00:37:28And look around the animal kingdom, and every man needs to, every male needs to construct
00:37:32himself into something useful in order to matter and be a part of it.
00:37:36And is that a bad thing?
00:37:38Is that part of the drive for men to sort of push for mastery and conquer and progress
00:37:44and improvement?
00:37:45I think that's something that you have the choice between men that are driven or men that
00:37:49are useless.
00:37:49I'd much prefer the driven men.
00:37:51Obviously, that can overshoot and turn into very squirrelly outcomes where they become
00:37:55tyrants or scammers or whatever, because that's the same drive just turned up in the wrong
00:38:00direction.
00:38:01They can be lotharios and they can play the field in a way that really hurts people.
00:38:06But yeah, driven by what, isn't it?
00:38:09See that word driven is really sitting with me, interestingly, because what you actually
00:38:15feel is like you belong, you're connected, you're needed, you have a role, you have a
00:38:20purpose.
00:38:20And so sure, if that's what we're talking about.
00:38:24And that has to be constructed a lot more.
00:38:26I mean, I think Mead's right.
00:38:28And you've had animation on talking about the birth, how we invented fatherhood to survive
00:38:34as a species, right?
00:38:35Because babies heads got too big and women had the choice between being snapped in half
00:38:39or having a husband that would care.
00:38:40Right.
00:38:40That's basically right.
00:38:41That's a good summary of the work.
00:38:43And so it's just true.
00:38:45And I just think it's incredibly naive for anybody to just assume that we can just get
00:38:50to some androgynous future and that we don't have to keep doing the hard work of making
00:38:56sure that there is a cultural message to men.
00:38:57All right, we need you.
00:38:58We need you to do this.
00:38:59We need you to not do that.
00:39:00Sure.
00:39:01But this is why our tribe, the tribe still needs you.
00:39:04There's this, there are these cave paintings from, they're in Northern Italy, I think,
00:39:08Rameggia.
00:39:09And they're famous because they're some of the oldest, or if not the oldest cave paintings
00:39:13that have ever been found.
00:39:14And the famous ones are the ones where there's kind of very violent, there's kind of stabbing
00:39:18and spearing and stuff like that.
00:39:19But the most haunting one is actually of a group, clearly the tribe, and then another
00:39:25figure who's moving away from them.
00:39:27And the interpretation of that is an ostracism.
00:39:29Yeah, I've heard about this.
00:39:30This person has been expelled by the tribe and to actually, yeah, because the tribe's
00:39:34saying, we don't want you anymore.
00:39:36I'm spitting you out.
00:39:36We don't need you.
00:39:37And in fact, you're kind of, you're worse.
00:39:39So we're going to, now we'd probably incarcerate, but ostracize someone.
00:39:44There was social death and then very often kind of physical death too.
00:39:47So this has been, this is not a new thought about how do we kind of make sure that the
00:39:51tribe needs you.
00:39:52That's true.
00:39:52But when you unmask ostracize an entire sex, all of them feel like they're being pushed
00:39:58out of the tribe.
00:39:59If you do that.
00:40:00Yeah.
00:40:00And so the message that I think too many young men have got is that we got it from here, boys,
00:40:06right?
00:40:06Thanks for the last X thousand years.
00:40:09Don't need you anymore.
00:40:10We got it from here.
00:40:11Or get on board the future is female train, right?
00:40:15That is a fatally flawed message.
00:40:17And I actually don't think if you get away from the culture war, it is not overwhelming
00:40:22majority of people think, right?
00:40:24Most people think moms and dads are a bit different and that's cool.
00:40:27Most people think men and women bring some complimentary skills, right?
00:40:31That's the whole argument for DEI, right?
00:40:34Is that you want a mix of skills.
00:40:35You want a mix of backgrounds, right?
00:40:37And so most people get that.
00:40:38If you get away from the culture war, most people believe all this stuff.
00:40:41I think that most people believe to one degree or another that different groups are different.
00:40:45But when you start to create a value stack based on who is more or less worthy around
00:40:51that, it's no longer we bring complimentary or different skills to the table and therefore
00:40:57everybody should have a seat.
00:40:58It is you and your particular skill set are surplus requirements or actively negative or
00:41:07tyrannical in some sort of a way.
00:41:09Therefore you should change.
00:41:12That seems to be the message.
00:41:14That's right.
00:41:14And then, then no surprise that then people will lean into the identity, right?
00:41:18If you really want someone to lean hard into an identity, all you have to do is threaten
00:41:23it and that will be the result.
00:41:26And I think we've seen some of that.
00:41:27But of course, I don't think that the answer is to go back to a more kind of reactionary
00:41:33kind of conservative view about the role of men and women or to introduce some kind of
00:41:37gender, bring back gender inequality in order to resupply men with their purpose.
00:41:42That's not the answer either.
00:41:44And it's also not what most people want.
00:41:45I mean, we're about to publish some work showing that we've just seen the biggest increase
00:41:49in amount of hands-on fathering that we've seen for probably half a century.
00:41:52So American dads are just doing more.
00:41:54Wasn't it that millennial fathers spend as much time with their kids as Silent Generation
00:42:04or Baby Boomer mothers?
00:42:04That's exactly right.
00:42:05Yeah.
00:42:06The amount of direct child, it gets complicated because it's secondary and primary childcare,
00:42:11but the amount of primary childcare being done by dads now is as high as was being done by
00:42:17mums in 1985.
00:42:19And of course, mums are doing even more.
00:42:21The whole fucking deadbeat dad thing.
00:42:22Yeah.
00:42:23I mean, this is a bit of a rant coming now because I think the whole deficit framing
00:42:29around fatherhood and dads, either deadbeat or do-first is really upsetting me.
00:42:35And I think partly as a dad.
00:42:37And one of the things that upsets me in here, I'm going to really take aim at some folks
00:42:40on the left, is this idea I just exposed to again recently, that if you look at full-time
00:42:45mothers and full-time fathers, so working full-time in the labor market, that mums are
00:42:51doing 25 to 30% more of the housework and childcare, right?
00:42:55That's the fact that's out there.
00:42:56There's a book by Eve Rodsky called Fair Play.
00:42:59Is this the second shift?
00:43:01And then there's the idea of the second shift.
00:43:02Yeah.
00:43:02Women working the double shift, et cetera.
00:43:04And I just saw again, a woman's group just kind of put out same thing.
00:43:08And the stat, this is a good example of a category of statistics that feel true, go with your
00:43:17intuition, but on close examination collapse, but they're not actually false.
00:43:22So it is true that men and women living together with kids, both working quotes full-time, she's
00:43:30doing more of the housework and the childcare than he is.
00:43:32But what they've done is defined full-time as 35 hours or more.
00:43:37He is doing more hours.
00:43:39So full-time working dads are doing more hours than full-time working mums.
00:43:43And if you add it all up, it's about six, 60 hours a week each.
00:43:49It is to quote Suzanne Bianchi from a paper for like 20 years ago, she describes the contributions
00:43:56of mothers and fathers in those households as quote, amazingly similar.
00:43:59And that remains true to this day.
00:44:01So dads are doing about eight hours more paid work a week and mums are doing about
00:44:07eight hours more unpaid work a week.
00:44:09And they're doing exactly the same amount of work.
00:44:11They are putting in the same work week, but this idea somehow that like dads aren't doing
00:44:16their, they're not pulling their share.
00:44:18They're not doing it's just untrue.
00:44:20And every time I see that it infuriates me as a dad and on behalf of dads and also just
00:44:26a colossally terrible social science.
00:44:29And it's going to be blown up within three minutes by anybody that wants to destroy it.
00:44:34And so it's actually not even in the interest of the women's groups to put out this bad
00:44:38social science because it will get destroyed.
00:44:40I understand what you mean, but the problem is the more simple headline always wins.
00:44:46In our current age, this is an iron law.
00:44:49The simplest headline always wins.
00:44:52I don't think that's true anymore because we'll come here and talk about it.
00:44:56And your audience isn't going to listen to it.
00:44:58And they might not have read that headline.
00:45:01And so I think, I actually think you're being modest.
00:45:05Maybe, maybe, but okay.
00:45:06But I mean, I'm one guy, I'm one guy like tossing a fucking droplet of water into it.
00:45:11People want to know the truth.
00:45:14And people are actually a little bit sick of this thing going.
00:45:18Now, of course, some people just want a stat that goes with their priors and that they can
00:45:22say over dinner and say, did you know that women do 30% more of the housework, even when
00:45:26they both work full time, right?
00:45:28Good that, but then I say, and then I come on and say, yeah, but if
00:45:31you look at the whole thing, they're actually doing the same amount.
00:45:34It's a kind of, I actually think enough people listening to you and to others.
00:45:38I want to give you some credit here, Chris.
00:45:41I think that one of the reasons you're successful is because you are curious and you do have
00:45:49good faith discussions about these issues, right?
00:45:52So, and you will change your mind about things.
00:45:54And I actually think the hunger, especially among young people for that is huge.
00:46:00And I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of podcasters are actually, have a lot
00:46:03more credibility than you think.
00:46:05And I actually really like, one of the things I like listening to you is this moment.
00:46:10And we may have had this moment ourselves when we first spoke, but I love this moment.
00:46:13I've heard this a few times recently where you get this expert comes on, right?
00:46:16On whatever it is, like something.
00:46:18And they get, and they don't know who you are, right?
00:46:21They're an academic and they've been told by their PR company.
00:46:23This is great.
00:46:23He has a huge platform and maybe they haven't done the time, right?
00:46:26And you've had it with my friend, Melissa Carney.
00:46:29You've had it with other people where they get about 10 minutes into the interview and
00:46:33you're quoting these papers at them or you're saying, yeah, I had them on or whatever.
00:46:37And they go, what?
00:46:39And actually one of them, I think actually said out loud, she said, God, you really know
00:46:42about this, right?
00:46:43I should have prepared better.
00:46:45Yes.
00:46:45You can see this kind of shot because they look at you, they look at the vibe, they look
00:46:48at the thing and they kind of go into it and they go, wait, what?
00:46:51Wait, what?
00:46:52I think it's a credit to you.
00:46:54And I think it does make you somewhat different to many of the other people in the so-called
00:46:58manosphere, because I do think that even when I disagree with you or disagree with some
00:47:03folks you've had on, I think there is an attention there to trying to get this right.
00:47:09The only thing I'd say on the household thing, and this is actually something that I wanted
00:47:12to bring up with you because it's bugged me a couple of times in some of the conversations
00:47:17you've had.
00:47:17So I think it's just us, right?
00:47:19So that's a spoonful of sugar to get the medicine down.
00:47:22Yeah, the trouble is the shit sandwich doesn't work anymore because everyone knows what's
00:47:25coming, right?
00:47:26Although some of the young people are saying, no, still give me the nice thing.
00:47:28I know there's something bad coming, but I still want the nice thing first.
00:47:30I know, it worked.
00:47:31I will take, the only child in me will take a shameless compliment.
00:47:35I mean, it helps, right?
00:47:37But, and I don't know how you think about this, but I've also noticed just on my rant about
00:47:42the anti-dad rhetoric of the left.
00:47:45But I've also kind of noticed just in a lot of these conversations, there's this kind of
00:47:50implied return to a world where the dad is the head of the household, where we're going
00:47:58to reassert this idea of kind of gender inequality within the household.
00:48:01And I wish I could remember who it was, but you had somebody on-
00:48:03Arthur Brooks.
00:48:04CEO, COO.
00:48:05Yeah, someone said that the mom, she's got a hugely important role.
00:48:11I'm not saying, the mom's like the COO of the household, right?
00:48:15And somebody else will say like, men need to lead their families, right?
00:48:18But the COO one really stuck with me, right?
00:48:20Because like, okay, so she's COO.
00:48:22Who's the dad again?
00:48:24He's CEO.
00:48:25Okay, so what you've just done there is you said, we're going to go back in a way to a
00:48:31world where there was this implied gender inequality within the household.
00:48:35Do you think that there's an inequality between CEO and COO when it comes to the household?
00:48:40I think there's an, if you're going to use that as an analogy, right?
00:48:43The CEO is the boss of the company, right?
00:48:46And the COO reports to the CEO.
00:48:48Interesting, I think, so look, I think it was Arthur Brooks.
00:48:51Have you got any more to say on that, on why you had an issue with it?
00:48:54That framing?
00:48:56Just because of that framing, but I'm hearing it elsewhere generally.
00:48:59More on the sort of conservative side of this argument.
00:49:02And it's, here's what I don't like.
00:49:04It's very rarely stated explicitly.
00:49:06The explicit version of it would be, we need to get back to stable families and families
00:49:11where men feel a sense of purpose.
00:49:12And so we need to go back to families where he is the head of the household.
00:49:16He is the ultimate decision maker.
00:49:18He is the leader of the family, whatever language you want to use, which, and therefore women
00:49:23are going to have to kind of recognize that they are in the end subordinate.
00:49:28Yes.
00:49:28What do you think about the feminization of society?
00:49:30Has there been a feminization of society?
00:49:34Helen Andrews thought so.
00:49:35Yes, I know.
00:49:36But, well, it's interesting, I mean, Helen Andrews, have you had her on by the way?
00:49:41No, she didn't, she, I can't get her on.
00:49:43I don't know what she thinks of me or the show, but we can't get her on.
00:49:47Yeah, I mean, I did, it was one of those things where I tried to ignore it because it was a
00:49:50culture war thing, right?
00:49:51Everyone's talking about this great feminization piece that she wrote.
00:49:54In the end, I just did something on my own sub stack about it.
00:49:57Where I don't see, the field she talks about law, et cetera, they only just approach 50/50,
00:50:07right, for one thing.
00:50:09And so I just don't see the evidence empirically that that's driving any of the changes in those
00:50:13fields.
00:50:14What upset me most about it was there are some fields that are being quite strongly feminized,
00:50:18mental health care, psychology, social work, and K-12 education.
00:50:22There was no mention of that.
00:50:23And so actually I'm very worried about the real feminization problem, which is a lot of
00:50:27these occupations are skewing more and more female over time.
00:50:30That has implications for the people in those professions, the kids being served or the
00:50:34patients.
00:50:34But also for men, like last, as we record this, the last jobs report showed that three times
00:50:40as many women had gone into the labor force as men.
00:50:42Now it was just one month, we'd be careful about that.
00:50:44And the reason was healthcare jobs.
00:50:46Right.
00:50:47Right.
00:50:47And so again, one of my differences with some of the folks on the right, political right,
00:50:51is that I'm saying, look, this is the jobs are going to be coming from areas like healthcare,
00:50:55et cetera.
00:50:55And so we have got to get more men into them.
00:50:57Especially with AI.
00:50:58Yeah.
00:50:58And they're like, no, no, those aren't jobs for men.
00:51:00We need to get men into men's jobs, into factories and mines and stuff like that.
00:51:04I'm like, okay, good luck with completely reordering the economy again to make that happen.
00:51:09But in the meantime, I see where the jobs are actually coming from.
00:51:12And so I think that's a real problem.
00:51:14I think that the, the idea that, you know, the legal profession has somehow become less
00:51:18good because women are in it.
00:51:19I just don't think so.
00:51:20The legal profession is not going to be around for that much longer than certainly not in
00:51:22its current situation.
00:51:23AI is better than men and women.
00:51:25So gender becomes irrelevant.
00:51:26Funny.
00:51:28What do you think about the feminism movement at the moment?
00:51:31I spend all of my time thinking about this through the lens of what's happening to boys
00:51:38and men.
00:51:39So even feminism for me is a reflection of how is it going to impact the thing that I
00:51:44care about most.
00:51:45Not that I don't care about women, but again, like I've got my, I've got my priorities.
00:51:49What's the current status of the feminism movement?
00:51:53How do you think of it when you come to think about its factions?
00:51:56It's very hard for me to answer that because I see it through the lens that I approach.
00:51:59And I am at quite a lot of meetings and conferences stuff now, you know, which would be described
00:52:03as feminist meetings.
00:52:06And I would say that slowly but surely the women's movement or feminist movement is coming
00:52:12to realize that demonizing or dismissing men is not a good strategy.
00:52:17It's happening patchily and slowly but surely, but it is happening.
00:52:22I'm seeing a lot of leaders in those spaces saying, okay, we have got to do better about
00:52:28the boys and the men.
00:52:29Now you might say, well, they're only doing it for tactical reasons or political reasons.
00:52:32And they will very often say, because it's good for women, right?
00:52:35And so I have this interesting disagreement with them and I'm very open about this.
00:52:37They say we should care about boys and men because we care about women.
00:52:40And I'm saying we should care about boys and men.
00:52:41I just end the sentence earlier than you, right?
00:52:44In the same way that we don't say we should care about women because it's good for the
00:52:48economy or good for men, right?
00:52:50I just, I think we should care about boys and men more generally.
00:52:53I've had to do that too.
00:52:54I had this piece about zero-sum empathy and I tried to legitimize the reason, there was
00:53:03a lot of things and it wasn't just this, but I remember I sort of tossed this coin into
00:53:07the pool that I knew would be effective, which was if you don't care about boys and men
00:53:15falling behind and also whine about there being no good men to date, that is the equivalent
00:53:20of sort of mating logic seppuku that you are creating the precise dearth of eligible partners
00:53:26that you say that you and your daughters and your friends and your sisters are looking for.
00:53:30Like if you're not prepared to help boys and men, you can't go, where are all the good men
00:53:35at?
00:53:36Because that's precisely what is causing the lack of eligible partners that you're talking
00:53:40about.
00:53:40But I didn't want to have to couch good men are good in as much as they can be of service
00:53:46to you as a woman.
00:53:48It's just that we should care about the falling behind of any group.
00:53:52We should care about human flourishing, right?
00:53:53If there's a group in society that aren't doing well, then we should care about them.
00:53:57I just think that's just, for me, it's just a straightforward moral proposition.
00:54:01Now I'm obviously different groups of different agendas, right?
00:54:06And so if you care about this group or that issue because it affects the other issue, I'm
00:54:11fine with that.
00:54:12So people kind of say like Melinda French Gates has supported me and Gary Barker because it's
00:54:18part of a gender equality thing, right?
00:54:20And she's very clear.
00:54:20She says it's not good for women and girls if boys and men are struggling, right?
00:54:25Now you might say, okay.
00:54:27So this is where the kind of, again, the reactionaries will be like, oh, of course she has to couch
00:54:30it as that.
00:54:31And it's kind of, I'm like, guys, for the love of God, she is a global feminist.
00:54:34Like, what do you want, right?
00:54:35And she's supporting my work.
00:54:36She's supporting boys and men's work.
00:54:39Like, no, no, no.
00:54:40They're like, they're the purists.
00:54:41They're the ones that are saying, no, no, no.
00:54:42She has to completely come over to our side.
00:54:44I'm like, guys, take a win, right?
00:54:45Of course, as a feminist, she says she's going to couch it that way, right?
00:54:49That's okay.
00:54:50Do you find yourself doing the same thing?
00:54:53Couching it that way? No.
00:54:55No, I don't.
00:54:56I do it openly with Melinda and with others.
00:54:58I was at a Reykjavik forum with some of the leading women.
00:55:02I'm just like, no, my position and the position of the American Institute for Boys and Men
00:55:06is just very straightforward.
00:55:07Like, we care about boys and men doing better and flourishing, right?
00:55:09We just care about that, period.
00:55:10Now, is that also good for the economy?
00:55:13Is it good for families?
00:55:14Is it good for women?
00:55:15Is it good for...
00:55:16Yes, yes, of course, yes.
00:55:17Right?
00:55:18In the same way that the Women's Services Prevention Initiative, their tagline is when women are
00:55:22healthy, communities thrive.
00:55:24I'm like, true.
00:55:25Also true that when men are healthy, communities thrive.
00:55:28But you don't have to condition it.
00:55:30I honestly think there's a deeper point there, which is men in particular, they kind of see
00:55:36the conditioning coming.
00:55:37You see it like, oh, well, if there's something bad happens, like men do bad thing, A.
00:55:44Oh, now we should care about boys and men.
00:55:46And they see that conditionality.
00:55:48They see, oh, you only care about me if X, if I do something bad or something bad happens.
00:55:53And what they actually need to hear is, no, dude, we just care about you.
00:55:56Yeah.
00:55:56What do you make of the current state of mating and dating?
00:56:00Well, as a 56-year-old man who's been married for almost my entire adult life, my...
00:56:05Your expert subject.
00:56:06Fortunately, I have three sons in their 20s at various stages, that helps.
00:56:11And a bunch of younger friends.
00:56:14I mean, it comes back to bits of this politicization point, which is I worry that the message that
00:56:23young women are getting from the left is life's really tough for women now.
00:56:29And it's the fault of all those men and the patriarchy.
00:56:32And the message that young men are getting from the right is life's pretty tough for young
00:56:37men right now.
00:56:37And it's the fault of all those woke feminists and those women.
00:56:41So they're being encouraged, respectively, to blame each other for their real problems.
00:56:46That is a colossal waste of political energy and not true.
00:56:50It's also creating some difficulties, I think, around dating, mating, et cetera, because we
00:56:54do see now that that political polarization is affecting dating and mating.
00:56:59I worry a lot, and Dan Cox has written for us on this, that you see this decline in dating
00:57:04in high school and among young adults.
00:57:06I think that's a huge problem because that's where you develop the relational skills, the
00:57:10ability to endure and deliver rejection gracefully, et cetera.
00:57:14I worry a lot about that.
00:57:16But I also worry that, and maybe this is something we could talk about, that there's something
00:57:21about the marketplace mate value evo psych stuff that I know you're very interested in.
00:57:26I've revised my-- Paul Eastwick has a book out called Bonded by Evolution.
00:57:31Do you know his stuff?
00:57:32I had him on the show.
00:57:33Oh, you did?
00:57:34We had a long debate.
00:57:35Right.
00:57:35And I'm not going full Eastwick on you here.
00:57:37Please don't.
00:57:38But I do find that something-- here's a bit I do like about it, is that if we're serious
00:57:43about thinking about ancestral mating patterns, we do have to take seriously the fact that
00:57:47we didn't live in cities of 10 million people with a phone.
00:57:50That wasn't the marketplace we faced.
00:57:53We were in smaller groups.
00:57:54So maybe you've done this with him, smaller groups.
00:57:56And we would know these people, and they'd come with us.
00:57:59And the whole idea of mate value does shift a little bit over time.
00:58:03And so my middle ground here is that it's clearly insane not to suggest that there isn't
00:58:08something quasi-market or a mate value thing going on.
00:58:12But there's also something quite interesting about this idea that kind of knowing somebody
00:58:17or someone being known by the people among you, that coming socially sanctioned, like
00:58:21someone you meet through the workplace, friend of a friend, et cetera, that's very powerful
00:58:26as opposed to someone you just algorithmically got attached to on an app on the other side
00:58:30of New York.
00:58:30I don't think--
00:58:31That's not how we evolved.
00:58:33I agree.
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00:59:49It's a very sexy argument.
00:59:51And the argument is mate value.
00:59:54He thinks mate value simply doesn't exist.
00:59:56That there is no way that beyond the first look, anybody is more or less preferable than
01:00:02somebody else.
01:00:03That revealed bonded preferences over time end up flattening the mating dynamic down.
01:00:08That tens could get with threes and that threes could get with tens.
01:00:11That wasn't how I read him.
01:00:12I didn't read him that way.
01:00:14I think that's an exaggeration, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
01:00:18I think it just gets flatter.
01:00:21Not that it flattens completely.
01:00:22He said there is no such thing after a couple of meetings, there is literally no such thing
01:00:26as mate value.
01:00:27There is no such thing as a disparity.
01:00:30So, well, he's more of the expert on his work than I am, but I read it as like mate value
01:00:33is a more complicated idea.
01:00:35I would agree with mate value is a more complicated idea.
01:00:38What makes me sort of bristle a little bit or what makes me concerned is if you've got
01:00:47this world that basically flattens, it makes egalitarian the mating market is one way that
01:00:55you could read it.
01:00:56No one's hot.
01:00:57Yeah.
01:00:57But no one's hot and no one's ugly.
01:00:59Yeah.
01:00:59What's the Kurt Vonnegut short story?
01:01:01Harry Bergeron, someone could check this where the minister, do you know the story?
01:01:08No.
01:01:08The ministry for equality levels everybody out, right?
01:01:13And so it's a satire.
01:01:14So it's like, if you're a really good dancer, you have to go wear weights around your feet.
01:01:17If you're beautiful, you have to get it, have plastic surgery to make you less so.
01:01:21And if you're ugly, have plastic surgery to make you more.
01:01:23So the main character story is like, if you're intelligent, if you're high IQ.
01:01:28That's right.
01:01:31Yeah.
01:01:33Harrison Bergeron.
01:01:33Yeah.
01:01:34If you're intelligent, they put a thing in your ear.
01:01:36That's just making a noise all the time to distract you.
01:01:39Yeah.
01:01:39And it's obviously like a kind of a flattening type thing.
01:01:43So look, if the idea is like, there is just no difference in how attractive someone is
01:01:48as a mate to anybody else, I think that's bat shit crazy.
01:01:55But over time, even with the revealed preferences, the revealed value that occurs as you get to
01:02:06know somebody a little bit better, that this is how beautiful elements of someone's personality
01:02:14and the way they hold themselves and their poise and their patience and their regulation
01:02:17and all the rest of it sort of appear over time.
01:02:19I think that denying the fact that there are more and less preferable mates, and this isn't
01:02:26just idiosyncratic, that if you were to take a big broad survey, that many people would
01:02:32rank as more preferable, even if you knew them for four years and more people, other people
01:02:37would rank less preferable, even if you know them for four years.
01:02:39Yeah.
01:02:39My understanding of it, and again, like I'm talking about, we're talking about his work
01:02:42now, but is that over time you learn more about someone.
01:02:46And so more of their kind of different, the different elements of mate value come to the
01:02:50fore, right?
01:02:51So if I just, if you just see me, you don't hear me speak, right?
01:02:54You just see me, maybe I'm mewing.
01:02:55Yep.
01:02:56So I look great.
01:02:57Yes.
01:02:58Right.
01:02:58But then, or I don't, I look, I don't look great.
01:03:02But then we talk for a while and let's say I'm kind or funny, or let's say I'm an asshole,
01:03:08right?
01:03:08That's going to change very significantly, right?
01:03:10And then you see me doing something hard for somebody else, right?
01:03:13You see me taking care of my mom, you see me, you see me working hard at them, right?
01:03:16All these things are adding up.
01:03:17Revealed over time.
01:03:18Yeah.
01:03:19That was the best, that was the best bit of what, of what Paul said.
01:03:21I really, I really thought it was a nice, um, twist on the very shallow, sort of typical
01:03:30understood, and this is the internet interpretation of mate value, right?
01:03:34And what's interesting about this is it's almost exclusively for short-term mating.
01:03:38Absolutely.
01:03:39Almost everything, all of the mating advice is for short-term mating as well.
01:03:42It's not, it's not like, so actually I got into this argument with Shadi Hamid for a piece
01:03:46of the post where he said, are you telling me to settle?
01:03:48Cause I said, we're talking about marriage.
01:03:50And I think the problem with the marketplace idea is that it sort of suggests that it's
01:03:55over once you've mated.
01:03:58But of course, that's just the beginning.
01:04:00And the story you tell about your relationship and the way that the relationship evolves
01:04:06over time within that story you're telling and the way you treat each other as you become
01:04:11different people over the decades, that's the job.
01:04:14And so the other problem with the marketplace is it doesn't capture those.
01:04:18It's about maximizing and you match and so on.
01:04:20Then you cash out.
01:04:21Yeah.
01:04:21It's like, and you've made a great match and that's the solution.
01:04:24No, no, no.
01:04:25And I said this to Shadi and said to others too, he said, sure, you obviously, you know,
01:04:28if you're lucky, you'll fall head over heels in love and it will just be obvious and you'll
01:04:32find somebody, but it is much less about the wife you choose than it is about the husband
01:04:37you become.
01:04:38That's 50 years.
01:04:40Yeah, I think you're right.
01:04:41The EVO script, as Paul said, it's definitely a book of the moment because evolutionary psychology
01:04:48is second only to behavioral genetics as the unspeakable topic, but it's very predictive.
01:04:54And I have a particular bias here because I'm in the city of David Buss and William Costello
01:05:05and they're about as well meaning of a scientist as you're going to get, right?
01:05:08They're not curating their data.
01:05:11They're not trying to push some ideological bent as far as I can see.
01:05:16And they change their minds about stuff too.
01:05:20I've seen David do that all the time.
01:05:21He's moved back and forth between a bunch of different theories, the cornerstones of what
01:05:25it was that he was pushing for a while.
01:05:27But you know, there was another element in that.
01:05:29So there was the mate value doesn't exist.
01:05:31There was a denial of sex differences really in preferences between men and women that they
01:05:37simply are not there.
01:05:39Yeah, which I don't.
01:05:39And I'm like, okay, I'm starting to construct a little bit of a corkboard Sherlock Holmes
01:05:44style thing here.
01:05:45Anyway, okay.
01:05:45So men and dating, some problems, some people have argued that women entering the workforce
01:05:51has caused fertility rates to drop.
01:05:53Yes.
01:05:54What's your perspective there?
01:05:55Didn't you have someone say that?
01:05:57I feel like I've heard someone say that on your...
01:05:59Danny Solakowski definitely pushing back against a lot of what women are doing at the moment.
01:06:05We think she implied it.
01:06:06I don't know whether she's...
01:06:07Yeah, I think she did.
01:06:08I think, and I've definitely heard other people say it, which is this idea.
01:06:11And again, this is a great example of this category of claim that feels intuitive, fits
01:06:19with your priors, and is wrong.
01:06:22And so you just got to, those are the ones that I always wear.
01:06:26So if someone brings a claim to me and I'm like, yeah, that feels true.
01:06:29And as it happens, I was thinking that myself.
01:06:32That's when it was like triple check it because it worries me.
01:06:36And there is this claim that the fertility decline is being caused by the entry of women
01:06:43into the workforce, right?
01:06:43Again, it sounds perfectly plausible, right?
01:06:45Like women are too busy earning to be sprogging, right?
01:06:49Can't do two things at once, et cetera.
01:06:51And so, but you look at the data and you look at from the period from 1975 to 2005, the labor
01:07:01force participation rate of women went up by 20 percentage points.
01:07:05Absolute massive, like that was a huge period of growth.
01:07:08And over the same time period, the total fertility rate went from 1.8 to 2.1, rough, right?
01:07:15Something like that, right?
01:07:16This is just, this is me and Claude figuring this out.
01:07:18So hands above the table, haven't done a peer reviewed academic articles, but, and then the
01:07:22women's labor force participation leveled out.
01:07:25It's basically been pretty flat since, and then it just had a little bit of a spike.
01:07:28Leveled out since when?
01:07:30Since about 2007, 2005, 2007.
01:07:32I mean, just drifting up, so it went, and then like that, right?
01:07:36Unlike in other countries actually, where it continued to go up.
01:07:39And that's when the fertility rate really went down in the US.
01:07:43And so it just, it seems to me there's got to be something else going on here.
01:07:48And the fertility rate comes, I know you're very interested in this, you just had Steven
01:07:51on again, right?
01:07:52The fertility rate conversation is a great example of where people take their priors and
01:07:59explain the fertility rate based on what they already thought, right?
01:08:04And so Jennifer Schuber, who I know, it's a TED Talk, she's got a book, co-authored book
01:08:09Toxic Demography.
01:08:11And her basic conclusion is the thing that's causing the decline in fertility rate is a
01:08:15lack of gender equality, right?
01:08:17Korea, Japan, et cetera, right?
01:08:19Gender equity, right?
01:08:20Right?
01:08:21And that might be true.
01:08:23There's some evidence against it, but there's some evidence for it.
01:08:27And then conservatives will say, the thing that's causing the fertility rate is feminism
01:08:32and the entry of women into the workplace, right?
01:08:34Okay.
01:08:35Again, you can see the arguments, there's evidence for it, and I've just given some evidence
01:08:38against it.
01:08:38And truth is, no one knows.
01:08:40And so it's a really dangerous subject because it is one of those things that we don't know
01:08:46yet.
01:08:46And we should have a lot of humility, by the way, about projecting population trends forward.
01:08:50If we have not learned anything, it is don't take a straight line and project it forward.
01:08:54We don't know what's going to happen, right?
01:08:57So be careful.
01:08:59I would say I'm thinking about the population bomb thing, right?
01:09:04Yeah, of course.
01:09:05But the population bust seems more reliable to be able to predict going forward.
01:09:13But it seemed like that about the population bomb, which is like, wait, more people are
01:09:16going to have more people, which means more people.
01:09:17True.
01:09:19Yeah, maybe.
01:09:19You might be right.
01:09:21So fewer people having fewer people means fewer people.
01:09:22I mean, I'm obviously simplifying it horribly, but like-
01:09:25Pretty accurate.
01:09:26I just don't, now there is a thing, like mechanically.
01:09:30So I will just come out and say, look, I don't think a rapidly declining population is a good
01:09:36thing, right?
01:09:37For some radical.
01:09:38I just don't.
01:09:40But it's very interesting because people, when you actually try and push people on why they
01:09:45think it's a bad thing, you get into all kinds of discussions.
01:09:48And I think people are bringing lots of pride and lots of, they are.
01:09:50I think Jennifer's right about this.
01:09:52There's a lot of morality being brought into this.
01:09:53People bring a lot of ethics.
01:09:54So a lot of very pro-life people, I think if they're honest, are saying, like, we don't
01:09:59like there to be less life because we like life and we want more of it, right?
01:10:04That's a very, like more life is good.
01:10:05Less life is bad.
01:10:07That's a perfectly legitimate religious and ethical position.
01:10:09And it could be for institutional reasons.
01:10:11It could be for fiscal reasons.
01:10:12It could be because it's, or it could be for me, it's more symptomatic.
01:10:15The reason I worry about it more is like, I think if you got to a point where you're significantly
01:10:20below replacement rate and your society is rapidly declining in size, that should be seen
01:10:25as a big flashing signal that all is not well, somehow or other.
01:10:30Now, what's not well, we don't know yet.
01:10:33Okay.
01:10:34Some things that I've thought of to do with this.
01:10:36It seems to me that births just downstream from coupling for a large part.
01:10:42If you look at the number of couples who are together that are together for a while and
01:10:46get married.
01:10:48Well, yeah, it's lots are going to depend on how you define coupling in this example,
01:10:51but yeah.
01:10:52Marriage, married couples.
01:10:53Well, no, because one of the reasons the fertility rates gone down is a decline in teen pregnancy.
01:10:56And most of them were not coupled.
01:10:58It was an accidental pregnancy.
01:10:59Okay.
01:11:01That's interesting.
01:11:01At least from, from, I was speaking to Steven.
01:11:04I actually asked him after we went for dinner last night, I asked him what his thoughts were.
01:11:08And he agrees with you that his whole thing is this vitality curve, which was the most
01:11:11recent episode that I did with him.
01:11:13And that's kind of a measure of the society's forward-lookingness and vitality.
01:11:18And energy.
01:11:18And no, the vitality curve is basically, um, when are people looking to start families?
01:11:25And if you have a graph that's like this and it's the age across the bottom, and if it goes
01:11:29from 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, if it does that, if you're looking to go
01:11:35to the dance with someone and you're looking for another dance partner, it's really easy
01:11:39if everybody is dancing at the same time.
01:11:41Yeah.
01:11:42But if you're 21 looking for a dance partner and this curve is now flatter and longer and
01:11:47shifted, right?
01:11:48Right.
01:11:48Half the people think a dance is five, 10 years from now.
01:11:51Exactly.
01:11:51Exactly.
01:11:53This is his point.
01:11:54And also if you shift it later, there are just some raw physics of the system that come in
01:11:58to sort of squish down what you're able to do.
01:12:00Yeah.
01:12:00If you are cycling through partners, if there's a more permissive culture of casual sex, of
01:12:04moving on, so on and so forth, more options, which means that you don't need to quite invest
01:12:09so much.
01:12:10Um, but his point around the, uh, labor force entry for women thing, the dips that you see
01:12:17in 1970 and then 2007, 2008.
01:12:20What's interesting there is because you now need a two parent income in order to drive
01:12:27the household, people are much more sensitive to economic indicators.
01:12:30And that means that if you have a term, that's why he thinks in 2007, 2008, uh, 2007, 2008,
01:12:37a global financial crisis.
01:12:38So sudden accelerations in the delaying of first births like a ratchet.
01:12:42And as we discussed in our last podcast, once first births move later, the whole starting
01:12:47a family system shifts for everyone.
01:12:50As the vitality curve shows delaying the median age of first birth predictably raises childlessness
01:12:55and the lowest total birth rates.
01:12:56And that goes in line with what you said.
01:12:58There's fewer teen pregnancies, right?
01:13:00If you shift this all rightward, this begins to skew, but his position is that it's a ratchet
01:13:06that it never snaps back because you need to lose a lot of the things that people want.
01:13:13You need to, uh, uh, sequester your independence.
01:13:16You need to do things that makes you feel like you're falling behind.
01:13:20One of the points that my friend who I spoke to, I told you the story about her friend saying
01:13:23she wished that she was with her and she had more going on.
01:13:25She made this point, I wish I'd had a kid during COVID because it wouldn't have felt like I
01:13:31was missing out on anything.
01:13:32Rest of the world's moving forward.
01:13:34And I think that that's a one person microcosm of why, why is it a ratchet?
01:13:39Why does the average age of first motherhood move only to the right and never to the left?
01:13:44Well, because it feels like you're missing out.
01:13:46All of your friends are continuing to do things in the real world and you're not.
01:13:50And he's got this, this line here.
01:13:51Vitality curve shows delaying the median age of first birth predictably raises childlessness
01:13:56and the lowest total birth rates.
01:13:57In that sense, childlessness is largely a timing problem.
01:14:01And so even if women no longer worked, hypothetically, of course, my thesis from data modeling is
01:14:05that birth rates would not fundamentally change unless family formation also happened sooner,
01:14:09which arguably occurred.
01:14:11This is cross-cultural.
01:14:12Economic uncertainty pushes parenthood later across nations, religions, and political systems.
01:14:16It all comes back to timing.
01:14:18P.S. historically, the U.S. managed this better than most countries.
01:14:21Women could work and start families at the same time, although that balance has clearly
01:14:25started to break down since the 2007-2008 crisis.
01:14:28Well, that would be consistent with what we were saying earlier about the need to kind
01:14:32of just economically for boys and for men to do better so that they can actually, we know
01:14:37that particularly in low income areas where men are doing better, the marriage rate is
01:14:39higher.
01:14:40And so I think it's two things.
01:14:42One, one thing I do worry about is the, the bar that you have to clear now before embarking
01:14:49on parenthood is just wildly higher than it used to be.
01:14:52Right.
01:14:53If you've got to have your house.
01:14:54Feels like it's wildly higher.
01:14:55Yeah.
01:14:55And it's just, I think I really, really don't, I really want to stand against that idea.
01:15:01People set the bar so high, how much parenting, how much you could have bought your house,
01:15:04got a career.
01:15:05The number of boxes you're supposed to tick now is terrifying to me.
01:15:08This was the discussion that we had last night, which it doesn't matter where people are.
01:15:15It's where people feel they are compared to where their parents were and where they feel
01:15:20like other people were.
01:15:21It is all through the interpretation.
01:15:24This is, this is like, I can't think of a way to emphasize how much this is the fucking
01:15:29driver of so much.
01:15:31That how much money do I think I need to have?
01:15:34How much do I think I need to be earning?
01:15:36How big do I think my house needs to be?
01:15:38How secure do I think my life needs to be before I can do this thing?
01:15:42And where do I think my parents were at my stage?
01:15:44And where do I think their lifestyle was like?
01:15:46And what do I think that everybody else is doing with their life?
01:15:48And how easy do I think that they have it?
01:15:50Because all of this is being filtered through what we feel like we should have and what
01:15:55we feel like our level of exposure to risk is.
01:15:58And it's not necessarily objective and that.
01:16:02Yeah.
01:16:04And it goes against people and then people come along and say, but that's not true.
01:16:06And here's my chart and here's my data.
01:16:08And like, and you try and argue people out of a feeling, which you can't do, but that
01:16:13feeling of economic, what did you say?
01:16:14Economic precariousness or whatever.
01:16:16It's a challenge, but it may be, maybe I'm going to change my mind about something here
01:16:21because one of the things we do know about men is that becoming a father actually does
01:16:28significantly change their behavior in the world.
01:16:31Right.
01:16:31And not least economically towards themselves, et cetera.
01:16:34And we now know that changes that.
01:16:36Darby Saxby has this book coming out, "Dad Brain" and how can your brain changes as well.
01:16:40And we obviously know this stuff about testosterone, et cetera.
01:16:43Risk taking.
01:16:44Right.
01:16:44Yeah.
01:16:44And so I just, I feel like we actually used to use marriage and fatherhood as a way to
01:16:51kind of help men grow up and yeah, exactly.
01:16:53I just really hate that word.
01:16:55And to say, we have to domesticate men because it sort of feels-
01:16:58Keeping them feral is good.
01:16:59Yeah.
01:17:00It's just like, it's cause the alternative is feral, right?
01:17:03It's like, we have to do.
01:17:03And also it tends to put the burden on women.
01:17:05It's like, we basically say to women, would you mind domesticating the men for us?
01:17:08And I'm like, no, I'm not like-
01:17:10There's a man child over here, marry him and make him a normal person.
01:17:12I mean like the women want, the men wants their house trained, right?
01:17:16They don't think it's their job to house train the man anymore.
01:17:19Yeah.
01:17:19Right.
01:17:20And I find that a difficult position to argue against.
01:17:23But the problem is that if that takes, you know, what's going to happen to the men in the meantime?
01:17:27Are the men getting themselves ready?
01:17:29Are they getting their competence skills ready?
01:17:31Yes.
01:17:31If so, yes, maybe.
01:17:33But I worry that continued delay misses out for this kind of, this moment, this kind of,
01:17:39and you know, I'm a dad and there is just this imperceptible feeling of this kind of cog inside
01:17:46you just going click and you become a different kind of creature.
01:17:51You do.
01:17:54I mean, it's very hard.
01:17:55In fact, some philosopher whose name I've forgotten now, she had this great analogy.
01:17:59It was like trying to explain to someone who doesn't have kids, what it's like to have kids
01:18:04is like trying to explain to someone that's not a vampire, what it's like to be a vampire, right?
01:18:08So I'm the vampire.
01:18:09I'm like, yeah, well, I, you know, I like to go out at night.
01:18:11I like to suck blood, you know, I hang upside down, et cetera.
01:18:14And you're like a human, you're like, all right.
01:18:17And she uses that as an analogy between the chasm of the different kind of creature you become.
01:18:22And it's like you suddenly it's just existentially obvious to you that there are lives, there is a
01:18:30life or lives in the world that are just unambiguously more important than your own.
01:18:36And for whom you would do anything, you would give your life for them.
01:18:40It's very pro-social.
01:18:41You would throw, yes, you would throw.
01:18:43So it changes men in this massively kind of positive way.
01:18:47This is why fatherhood.
01:18:48Fatherhood is somewhat, one of my colleagues put this in the other way.
01:18:52Fatherhood is the last male institution.
01:18:54You don't have institutions anymore that are kind of just like male.
01:18:58I'm not saying there aren't still some that are predominantly male, but like actually fatherhood,
01:19:02like that is always going to be a male institution.
01:19:05And it is so in a way that isn't just like a fact.
01:19:08It's actually a thing.
01:19:09It's an institution that changes us.
01:19:11It transforms us from the inside out.
01:19:14And so if that's not happening to enough men and you do see this rise in childlessness, I mean,
01:19:21for all the discussion about incels, it's the kind of, what would be the equivalent of like
01:19:27not having a kid and in involuntary dads.
01:19:31But yeah, that's a much more troubling trend because without that pro-social structure and
01:19:38script and implication for men, that's a huge problem.
01:19:40So maybe it going later is bad.
01:19:43But I also think the way free societies work as opposed to communist China, where they just
01:19:48said, wait, there's going to be too many children.
01:19:49You're only allowed one.
01:19:50Even having Singapore, I just learned recently that like your third government would pay for
01:19:54the birth of the first two kids, but you're on your own after that.
01:19:56So you'd have to pay for the medical costs of your third child, right?
01:20:00So, cause they read Ehrlich's book and they just freaked out.
01:20:02So you saw it.
01:20:03In a free society, what happens is we learn from not only from our own mistakes, but from
01:20:10other people's mistakes.
01:20:11And so if we're starting to see more and more women say, or men saying, you know what?
01:20:15I kind of regret not doing that earlier.
01:20:17I kind of wish I'd done that, et cetera.
01:20:19Then that learning will get passed on.
01:20:21Do you hear many women saying that?
01:20:23Is that a popular topic that's being pushed much at the moment?
01:20:25There I will have to plead ignorance.
01:20:28But I'm just saying as a general point, cultures learn if they're free.
01:20:32And so if it's not working out for people, people will see that it's not working out
01:20:35for people and they'll do it differently.
01:20:37Yeah.
01:20:37I think that's how progress happens.
01:20:40I would love that to be the case.
01:20:41I would really love for there to be at least parity between the different types of life
01:20:48paths that people can take.
01:20:49Yeah.
01:20:50And at the moment it doesn't feel that way.
01:20:51If you look in the media, if you look in popular culture, if you look in music, there's a really
01:20:56fascinating song by Kelsey Ballerini and it's called I Sit in Parks.
01:21:00And what she talks about is she was in a long-term relationship.
01:21:06She was 30.
01:21:06Her partner was 37 and he was ready to have kids.
01:21:09She said she wanted to freeze her eggs and that was a gift to her and him on her 30th
01:21:13birthday because she wanted to go and chase her music.
01:21:17She wanted to go and play music and do this to her.
01:21:18And he said, I'm ready to have kids now.
01:21:19If we're not ready to have kids now, I'm going to move on.
01:21:21She said, I'm not.
01:21:22He moved on.
01:21:24And then this song and the album, the EP got released two or three years later.
01:21:28And it's a story about her sitting in the park and watching this family, this mother and
01:21:34father, and she sits on the bench and she rips her vape.
01:21:38And she says, Rolling Stone is telling me that I'm doing all the right things, but I wonder
01:21:44if I've left it too late to be a mother.
01:21:46I chose to do the damn tour instead of going back.
01:21:48So I take my Lexapro and I make my next song and she's watching this family sort of have
01:21:55a wonderful Saturday morning to themselves.
01:21:58I'm wondering whether or not she's made the wrong decision.
01:22:00That was so fucking shocking.
01:22:02And she's a country artist anyway, but that was so fucking shocking.
01:22:06And the comments are filled with women who agree, but that is not.
01:22:10I'm saying what's the equivalent song from the parents who obviously like everyone's
01:22:14glamorized there, right?
01:22:16The parents' song is like, God, I wish I could have gotten up late like her and had time to
01:22:19make myself up and have a dress and be free.
01:22:22Maybe the mom is looking at her thinking like, why did I have kids with this guy when I could
01:22:27be like her on a swing in a gray dress?
01:22:29The grass is always greener when you've got optionality.
01:22:32And also like she probably got a good night's sleep kind of last night.
01:22:35I remember like when our kids were really young, we kind of lived on this flat in Bessos Park
01:22:40in London.
01:22:42And I would get up, I did the early shift like a lot of dads did.
01:22:46I remember my wife would be sleeping and I'd be there with the kids, but I had two under
01:22:51three at one point.
01:22:52And I would wait, dawn would break.
01:22:55I'd be tired, wait for a couple.
01:22:57And then this gay couple, these gay guys lived opposite us, right?
01:23:00The other side of the street.
01:23:01You think about being gay.
01:23:03I watched, they would get up.
01:23:06They had lovely bathrobes.
01:23:07They'd make a great coffee machine.
01:23:09Hang on, you were watching two gay guys through the window.
01:23:11Listen, it's like a long night.
01:23:12Okay.
01:23:13And I'm just watching them and they had this kind of terrace and the point is like, I know,
01:23:16and I would just say, they'd get up late.
01:23:19They'd have nice coffee.
01:23:20They'd read the paper on the thing.
01:23:21They didn't have kids crawling on mechanics.
01:23:23So yeah, the grass is always greener.
01:23:24But here's, I actually think, I think you're making my point.
01:23:27You're making my point for me, which is there you have this incredibly breakout country artist,
01:23:33right?
01:23:33With this strong message, which is maybe I waited too long.
01:23:38Like maybe this wasn't the right thing for me to do.
01:23:41It's a story of regret, right?
01:23:43Song of regret.
01:23:44That is going to be listened to, as you said, by like millions and millions and millions
01:23:48of women, right?
01:23:49That's how cultures change is that we get stuff a bit wrong and we try it and we try this and
01:23:53that didn't work.
01:23:53We do this and we all learn from each other and we adapt as a culture.
01:23:58As an eternal pessimist, I really hope that that's the case.
01:24:02You're right.
01:24:02It's too early not to assume it won't be.
01:24:04That's all I ask.
01:24:05Cool.
01:24:05I mean, the reason that it seems surprising to me is it's so rebellious.
01:24:10Like that is a much more rebellious song to put out than sleep with him and not catch feels.
01:24:16I don't think that's true anymore.
01:24:18I actually suspect that song is going to do pretty well.
01:24:20Oh, it is.
01:24:20But that is more rebellious.
01:24:23That's not the main culture at the moment.
01:24:25I don't get the sense.
01:24:25And look, what's the main culture?
01:24:27If she's not the main culture, right?
01:24:29She's a huge, she's not one country artist with a two million place song.
01:24:32I think I really worry that you see the main culture as like the New York Times, right?
01:24:38Which is like a peripheral counterculture at this point.
01:24:41I shouldn't say that because I gave it right.
01:24:43I gave me right for them.
01:24:44You need them at some point.
01:24:46I guess that road's closed now.
01:24:47But they're just not, or even CNN.
01:24:50Like actually the mainstream culture, it's her.
01:24:54It's you.
01:24:54Country music is top number one.
01:24:59There's this really interesting thing going on there where
01:25:02I just think that the young people in particular,
01:25:05they're trying to figure out how to take the best of what came before,
01:25:08but not be landed with the worst of it.
01:25:10And part of that is to rethink this whole kind of gender relationship thing.
01:25:13And they're doing that and it's hard.
01:25:15It is complex, which is-
01:25:16And they're not going back.
01:25:18As I said, like dads are doing more.
01:25:19But I think she's the one also, right?
01:25:21Like he opens the door and like it's very courteous and stuff like that.
01:25:24Just really lands.
01:25:25So I hope you won't mind me saying some of my youngest son went to the University of Tennessee.
01:25:30And he always opens the car door and closes the car door for his girlfriend or who he's kind of with.
01:25:34And his friends are up from the Northeast.
01:25:36I'm like, "Oh God, I have to start doing that now."
01:25:38Because they went to liberal colleges where that's like the non-feminist thing to do.
01:25:41But by and large, even the kind of liberal women don't hate it.
01:25:47And so I think that actually the mainstream culture is kind of moving on this thing.
01:25:52I hope so.
01:25:53That'd be great.
01:25:55And we have to make them feel that we've got their backs.
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01:27:15What happened with this debate between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson?
01:27:19Did you see it?
01:27:20I didn't know that this happened.
01:27:21Oh, you didn't see it?
01:27:22Okay.
01:27:22No.
01:27:22Well, partly because I know them both and Scott's on our advisory board, as I mentioned.
01:27:27So Derek Thompson came back from paternity leave and it was actually the first thing he
01:27:32did was go on Scott Galloway's podcast.
01:27:35I think he said it's not just like the first day back, it's the first hour back.
01:27:38And he'd been, I think, on paternity leave for a couple of months.
01:27:41And that just triggered this debate where Scott said, "You're just back from paternity leave.
01:27:47How are you doing?"
01:27:48"I'm finding my way back.
01:27:50I won't be as coherent as usual."
01:27:51Derek was incredibly coherent.
01:27:53And Scott just said, "Well, honestly, I don't understand this whole paternity leave thing,
01:27:57or even why men should go to the births.
01:27:59I don't think men should be at the births.
01:28:00It's disgusting.
01:28:02And the men should be outside smoking cigarettes like the old days, and then they should go
01:28:05back to work.
01:28:05I just think it's ridiculous, basically."
01:28:09Derek was like, "Well, actually men do need to take time off to be with their kids because
01:28:15otherwise women are the only ones doing it and you'll have gender inequality in the workplace."
01:28:20Well, I found it interesting about that.
01:28:21I haven't said anything about this publicly yet, but I think you're both wrong.
01:28:27I think that Scott was wrong in suggesting that men and dads are of no use in the kind
01:28:36of early months.
01:28:37They are of a different use to moms, for sure.
01:28:40But they are very often the main allo parent now.
01:28:42They're very often the kind of one that's around.
01:28:44And they very often are the one that's getting stuff done.
01:28:47They're like, "Have you heard of the owl monkeys or like the best dads in the natural world,
01:28:52apparently?"
01:28:52No, owl monkeys.
01:28:53Where the dads are kind of around all the time.
01:28:55And basically, moms are doing the breastfeeding and nurturing.
01:28:57Dads are doing everything else.
01:28:58Dad is getting shit done.
01:28:59He's getting the food.
01:29:01He's getting organized.
01:29:01He's around, but he's still around them.
01:29:03That's kind of how it is, I think.
01:29:06That was certainly my experience.
01:29:08So you can't do what mom's doing.
01:29:09You also don't feel the same way that mom does about the baby.
01:29:12You just can't.
01:29:13Just can't.
01:29:14You're not wired to at that point.
01:29:17So you're still useful.
01:29:18So Scott was wrong about that.
01:29:20But I didn't like the way Derek framed this as men should take time off so that women aren't
01:29:28the only ones taking time off so that we can get close to gender pay gap.
01:29:31He framed it as a gender equity issue.
01:29:32And my view is dads should actually be able to take time off and should take time off their
01:29:39kids.
01:29:39Not just when they're young, et cetera.
01:29:40Not because they can do what moms do.
01:29:43Nor in support of gender equality.
01:29:46But because dads are awesome.
01:29:47And kids are awesome.
01:29:49And kids do really well with their dads around them.
01:29:51So I don't want to be the deputy, the kind of malfunctioning mom.
01:29:55The kind of, oh, if only you could be a mom.
01:29:57No, no.
01:29:57Dads are amazing.
01:29:58And so I'm really pushing this idea that kind of fell between those two stools.
01:30:04So the old idea of dads is just go back to work, smoke a cigar, have a cigar.
01:30:07I think you meant cigar, actually.
01:30:08But have a cigar, a whiskey, back to work.
01:30:11And Derek Singer's like, no, if you're a good gender egalitarian, you've got to take time
01:30:15off, right?
01:30:16Even if you hate it and you suck at it, right?
01:30:17Because that's the way to get gender equality.
01:30:19I'm like guys, guys, what about just saying dads are cool.
01:30:23And being a dad, and the way dads are with their kids is a bit different to moms on average
01:30:27in many ways.
01:30:29Amazing.
01:30:30So I want like a, again, a pro dad argument rather than a gender equality argument for
01:30:36fathering.
01:30:37Should dads be in the birthing room?
01:30:38The evidence on actually interesting Darby Saxby, who I mentioned earlier, dad brain.
01:30:42She did write a response to this kind of thing, which people can find.
01:30:46And she kind of rightly pointed out that actually the evidence on how the unprecedented trial
01:30:52of dads being in the birthing room is going is really mixed.
01:30:56We don't know.
01:30:57And actually kind of sometimes in surveys afterwards, like moms have mixed feelings about it.
01:31:01If the birth doesn't go well, I think you talk to Anna Machin about this.
01:31:04It can be quite traumatizing for the dad.
01:31:06So I think, look, I might get in trouble for saying this now, but I think we have to be
01:31:10honest to say the evidence is a little bit mixed.
01:31:12And I think it shouldn't, shouldn't be like, it shouldn't be shamed for doing it or shamed
01:31:17for not doing it.
01:31:18And moms, by the way, should also feel like if they feel that there'll be better off with
01:31:22their mom or their friend or kind of somebody else, they should feel okay saying that to
01:31:26their partner too, for the actual birth, right?
01:31:29Neither are obliged to.
01:31:30Yeah.
01:31:31As a sort of, as Darby points out, we've never done this before, right?
01:31:34How long have men been in the birthing room?
01:31:37Maybe about 30, 40 years.
01:31:38Actually, I shared this with my, with my wife.
01:31:41I said, these things blew up.
01:31:42And she said, oh, Scott says that men shouldn't even be in the birthing room.
01:31:45She said, yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been.
01:31:48What?
01:31:50I said, what?
01:31:51It's like 25 years, 25 years later.
01:31:54I was like, what?
01:31:54I thought it was really useful.
01:31:56What about all of my words of encouragement?
01:31:58You're more harm than good.
01:31:59You're more harm than good.
01:32:00I mean, I mean, I don't, I haven't, I'm now sort of litigating something personal.
01:32:03We can just go back to it, but there are pros and cons, but, but I honestly think like it's
01:32:07not, it wasn't, I mean, the real truth is it was a very hot day and I'd ordered a fan cause
01:32:11I knew it was going to be hot, but I didn't realize the fan wasn't made.
01:32:14So I opened the box and she went into labor, went into labor.
01:32:18She's in labor, she's in labor.
01:32:21And I'm shouting from the other, I go into the other room, but she's having contractions.
01:32:25Took her down to home, right?
01:32:26And, um, and I said, uh, do you know where the Phillips screwdriver?
01:32:34And she said, I don't need a Phillips screwdriver to have a baby.
01:32:38I might know, but I need a Phillips screwdriver to make the fan.
01:32:41I'm not great at DIY anyway, to be honest.
01:32:46So I said, do you know where it is?
01:32:48And she's like, I'm in the other room.
01:32:51I'm trying to like, I'm this huge pressure now, right?
01:32:54This is like, I'm trying to make it, I'm trying to make it.
01:32:59And she's like, forget the fucking fan.
01:33:01Just like, I'm having the baby.
01:33:02I'm having the baby fan or no fan.
01:33:04The baby's coming around.
01:33:05I'm nearly done.
01:33:06I'm nearly done.
01:33:06I'm on, I'm on like, I'm on like step seven with the Phillips screwdriver.
01:33:10So I, you know, I didn't, I wasn't amazing from that point of view.
01:33:13So I think that the fan thing, it jaundiced her about my view.
01:33:16And then, uh, uh, anyway, the other one I'm all in now.
01:33:21The other one I'd say was in the birthing pool, right?
01:33:24Cause I was very into that.
01:33:26I need a birthing pool.
01:33:27And we'd been to one of these very, I think I can share this.
01:33:31It would be just very, very like progressive, midwifey thing, right?
01:33:38About birthing at home.
01:33:40And if you have it in the pool, that's kind of great, which is good right away.
01:33:42I mean, I'm all, I think the whole like over medicalization of child birthing.
01:33:46Like I'm, I'm, I'm really persuaded by that argument now.
01:33:48That actually doing it more naturally is really good.
01:33:50So I'd only misunderstood here, putting it in the pool.
01:33:52But she said, but guys, just kind of just say something to you.
01:33:55She said like, it's quite, it can get quite murky in there.
01:33:57Can't see it around, which is true.
01:34:00And she said, and so the only thing I'll say is if you get in the pool with your partner
01:34:04to support them, right.
01:34:06Put something up, put some swimming trunks on.
01:34:08She said, because there have been occasions when I've seen something spherical and hairy
01:34:14in the water.
01:34:15And I've assumed that it's the baby's head crowning and I've gone in to help it.
01:34:19And it wasn't the baby's head crowning.
01:34:21It was the dad's testicle.
01:34:22And so I grabbed him by the bollocks.
01:34:26And literally every guy in the room was like, so this is the other child, right?
01:34:32So this time she's having a baby.
01:34:35She's like, you know, I want you to get in and rub my back and do it.
01:34:37So I'm cool.
01:34:38I'm here for you, honey.
01:34:38And then I go into the other room and then I'm shouting out, where am I swimming trunks?
01:34:42Like what are you talking about?
01:34:44I need my swimmers.
01:34:45She's like, I don't know where they are.
01:34:46I can't find them.
01:34:47I'm slamming trunks open.
01:34:49And the midwife is like, for God's sake, she's having the baby get in the pool.
01:34:52I don't care.
01:34:53I don't care.
01:34:53I said, it's not about modesty.
01:34:55I said, the lady at the thing, the lady at the Lamaze class.
01:34:57She said, you've got to, you've got to wear swimming trunks.
01:34:59I said, I'm not getting in there with a house.
01:35:00So anyway, so my main advice.
01:35:05And then I guess, you know, the other one, the other child was like, you get to cut the
01:35:08cord and I was terrible at it.
01:35:09I couldn't cut it.
01:35:09I was hacking through it.
01:35:10I thought you'd have these massive shears, you know, like, like opening up a new fucking
01:35:15city hall.
01:35:18Tiny little pair of scissors and you're trying to hack through it.
01:35:20It's really gristly.
01:35:21Took me ages.
01:35:21And then the other side of the car and I'll do it.
01:35:23And to this day, my oldest son has got this really weird belly button and he blames me
01:35:26for it because, you know, so, so all the fathers out there.
01:35:29Key, key items.
01:35:32If you are going to be with a Phillips fan driver or make, pre-make the fan or have a
01:35:36Phillips screwdriver, a really good pair of scissors.
01:35:39Cause the ones that give you a crap and swimming trunks and then you'll be fine.
01:35:43Oh God.
01:35:46Well, is the idea of, um, not being in the, but I didn't know that it has only been four
01:35:52decades.
01:35:53Yeah, I guess seventies.
01:35:53I don't know, but that's really when it came in.
01:35:55It was like seventies and eighties.
01:35:56And it went from being like, it's a really interesting cultural change.
01:35:59I mean, if you look at, uh, I didn't have the numbers to hand, but, but it really flipped
01:36:03very fast.
01:36:04And as I say, you know, it's too soon probably to get this kind of strong evidence around
01:36:10it.
01:36:10Um, and it was a great example of how like, like the internet, I think Scott ended up kind
01:36:14of collapsing and kind of, you know, on him and kind of, kind of apologizing.
01:36:18But, but as I said, Darby Saxby was saying, actually, we don't really know yet about the
01:36:22dads in the birthing room thing because we've, that is a completely unprecedented culture.
01:36:26And she came out in favor of it and said, but you know, dads are great.
01:36:29Putting them on my kids.
01:36:30Like you put the, you put the kid on your, on your chest and one of them pooped all over
01:36:35me.
01:36:36But actually that skin to skin thing, building skinship to use a term that someone uses, that's
01:36:41all true.
01:36:42Um, and that's great.
01:36:43Uh, but that got lost of course, in, you know, the positions that people had to take on.
01:36:49Paternity leave seems a little bit more of a easy discussion to pass.
01:36:55Much easier now.
01:36:56And it's interesting, like it's not, most States are doing something on it now.
01:37:00Basically the Democrat States are passing some sort of paid leave policy for dads and the
01:37:04Republican ones are having tax credits to encourage employers to offer paid leave.
01:37:08And so the idea that dads, you know, dads are parents too, uh, and bring something different,
01:37:14uh, that's not really a controversial idea anymore.
01:37:16And we have seen a massive increase, I mentioned earlier in parenting by dads, um, and a massive
01:37:21increase in the uptake.
01:37:22There are some States now where sort of the new parental leave policy is as likely to be
01:37:25taken by dads as by moms.
01:37:26And so there's been this, I find this very interesting, like a way you get these culture
01:37:31wars, right?
01:37:31Where either we're being overrun by woke feminists who like, you know, demonizing men and running
01:37:37everything into the ground, or you get these kinds of reactionary podcast type, you know,
01:37:42people are like reactionaries who are kind of taking us back to the Handmaid's Tale.
01:37:45And then you just go to the data and you say, huh, interesting.
01:37:48Dads are doing more parenting than before.
01:37:50It's not like a significant kind of increase, right?
01:37:54Labor force participation for women's actually hit its all time high after the pandemic.
01:37:59I mean, it was a little bit, um, violent crime is way down.
01:38:04It's halved in the last new decades.
01:38:06The number of boys fighting at school also halved in the last kind of few decades, et
01:38:10cetera, et cetera.
01:38:11And so, um, away from the cliques, to use your language from earlier and away from the
01:38:18culture war, what I see is by and large ordinary people, moms and dads, young people, boys
01:38:26and girls trying to figure this out and figuring it out one way or the other.
01:38:31And it's bumpy and it's difficult and it's messy.
01:38:33But I think that the progress line is there.
01:38:35And I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit sick of the pessimism.
01:38:37I'm a little bit sick of the deficit frame.
01:38:39My hero, John Stuart Mill once said, everybody who knows anything of the world is supposed
01:38:43to think ill of it, right?
01:38:44So that intellectual snobbery in favor of pessimism has always been there.
01:38:48Right.
01:38:48And he was like, and so, uh, I'm trying to recalibrate some of my own talking about this
01:38:53because there is a danger that you're like, we could talk about stuff we've talked about
01:38:56before about wages and male suicide and no real problems, but it's just kind of why that
01:39:02it becomes a bit of a, almost a cultural race to the bottom.
01:39:06It's like, who can describe exactly how we're going to hell in the handcart?
01:39:11In the most grave terms, the fastest.
01:39:13And then you'll get on podcasts, then you'll get clicks, then you'll get book deals.
01:39:16And, and, uh, the market for that, it's not a new, it's not a new problem.
01:39:21You actually think about the number of books that start with the end of, right?
01:39:25And at one point I thought it might be the end of endings or something because I'm just
01:39:28sick of those as well.
01:39:29It's like, everything's the end of everything, right?
01:39:31Rather than, you know what, we're figuring this out.
01:39:32It's a bit difficult.
01:39:33We should help each other out.
01:39:34We should have some supportive policies.
01:39:36We shouldn't demonize each other.
01:39:37We should definitely not pathologize men or women or anybody else.
01:39:40And we should try and figure this out.
01:39:43But, but onwards and upwards, because otherwise pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
01:39:48And I think it's a real problem, particularly for America.
01:39:50I mean, we're in America now, right?
01:39:52And things I love about America and I hated about our old country was that everyone lived
01:39:55in the past.
01:39:56And this definition of an old person is, you know, you're old when you spend more of your
01:40:01time thinking about your past than your future.
01:40:03I think the same is true of societies.
01:40:06Once societies start thinking more about their history and their, you know, all of that, which
01:40:12you want, you want that sense of history and patriotism, but you want to be spending more
01:40:15time thinking about the future.
01:40:16I just heard this guy on a podcast.
01:40:18I can't remember who was somewhere.
01:40:20I think it's the guy who left Harvard actually.
01:40:21And he sort of said, Americans, the thing about America is that it's obsessed with progress
01:40:26and innovation.
01:40:27I'm like, yes, yes.
01:40:29That's why I'm a proud American.
01:40:33What's happening with men's life satisfaction at the moment?
01:40:37Uh, I don't know the latest data on that actually.
01:40:39Um, I don't, I don't.
01:40:41But you mentioned, here's a bunch of reasons why stuff's maybe not quite as fucked as people
01:40:45think it is.
01:40:45Yeah.
01:40:46But I think if you were to lick your finger and put it in the air and take a cultural temperature
01:40:50of how people are talking about the situation.
01:40:52Yeah.
01:40:53I think more people would, what's the number one reason for why people, uh, the Pew research
01:40:59data on why they don't have kids just don't feel ready yet?
01:41:02Uh, yes.
01:41:03And then the second is couldn't find the right person.
01:41:04Couldn't find the right person, second one, but just don't feel ready yet.
01:41:08It's like unfinished article, a little bit unsure of myself and the world.
01:41:12Yeah.
01:41:12I mean, there's, there's, there's a mixture of objective and subjective measures here.
01:41:16There was this really interesting paper looking at the kind of five milestones to adulthood,
01:41:19like finishing education, getting a job, leaving home, getting married, having kids.
01:41:23And it was very, what it found was that 20 years ago, men were more likely to hit those
01:41:28milestones and now men are less likely than women to hit those milestones.
01:41:31So the milestones to adulthood are being hit more by women now than by men because the
01:41:35coefficient has, has flipped.
01:41:37As far as the wellbeing stuff goes, my last time I looked at this, it was relatively stable
01:41:42on the kind of good subjective wellbeing measures.
01:41:44We do know that men are much more affected by relationship breakup and unemployment.
01:41:50And so negative economic and social shocks damage male wellbeing more than female wellbeing.
01:41:56So you might expect, um, some of the recent shocks to have affected men more.
01:42:00The trouble with this, honestly, is that there's just so many bad surveys out there that will
01:42:03ask these kind of point in time questions, uh, from both sides.
01:42:07I'm not throwing anybody under the bus here, but just like, and it gets clicked.
01:42:09And some of the surveys, like there's so many surveys on young men now.
01:42:12I mean, like if I get another email saying we want to do a survey on what young men are
01:42:15really thinking, I'm like, I don't know, please don't, because you'll just ask some
01:42:18stupid questions and then you'll over-interpret the answers and we won't be able to repeat
01:42:21the question because it doesn't, it's, there's no time series on it.
01:42:24And people will just in that moment, they'll just react to the question in that kind of
01:42:28particular cultural moment, and then we'll over-interpret it.
01:42:30Yeah.
01:42:31So if you're in the middle of the Iran war, you're going to feel differently than if it's.
01:42:34Yeah.
01:42:34Yeah.
01:42:34Or even like, and also we've seen massive swings in some of these things, just like one side
01:42:38of the other of a presidential election.
01:42:40And you think really, if like who's in the white house is massively changing how you feel
01:42:43about the world, then that's telling us that this is highly subjective.
01:42:46What was that nuance on title nine that I texted you about?
01:42:49I thought this was really interesting.
01:42:51I saw, I texted you about, um, some guy had done a video and it was actually of the episode
01:42:56that I did with Scott, which is Scott talking.
01:42:58Yeah.
01:42:59Oh, that's right.
01:43:00And Scott had said title nine is used to sort of pull back men, but the guy's video said
01:43:08it could also be used for raising up men.
01:43:11Yeah.
01:43:11What's the nuance?
01:43:13Yeah.
01:43:14The nuance there is that title nine is anti-sex discrimination in higher education, right?
01:43:20It basically just takes the idea of you can't discriminate on the basis of sex and it makes
01:43:25it clear that that's true in higher education.
01:43:26There is one exception to that, which is undergraduate admissions to private colleges, which I'll
01:43:31come back to because it's relevant to the answer.
01:43:33But what it basically says is you can't discriminate on the basis of sex.
01:43:36And so it was really an anti-discrimination measure, not a strongly affirmative action
01:43:42measure.
01:43:43So it's not, it didn't say to colleges, everything else equal, you should let women in, not men.
01:43:47And there's no evidence that that's happening, right?
01:43:48There's no evidence that the reason there are more women in college now than men is because
01:43:54there's a thumb on the scale in favor of the women.
01:43:57They're just better in terms of the...
01:43:59Is there a thumb on the scale against the favor of men?
01:44:02Uh, no, not, not.
01:44:04I've seen absolutely no evidence for that.
01:44:06In fact, if anything, most colleges, public or private, although the publics don't have
01:44:11this carve out, actually are quite worried about this.
01:44:14We've got a whole, uh, we've got a thing now, uh, higher education male achievement collaborative
01:44:18working with colleges.
01:44:19Cause they like, they, they start to worry once they get 60, 46 to five.
01:44:22Cause not only do their male applications drop, their female applications start to drop too,
01:44:26because the dating market on a college campus where there are twice as many women as men
01:44:32is not awesome for women.
01:44:33So maybe it comes back to a little bit, but people who don't think there's any difference
01:44:36between men and women should look at the difference in the dating market on college campuses at
01:44:40SKU where there are two women for every man.
01:44:43And I had young women saying that they, they look at the gender ratio of colleges before
01:44:46they decide to apply because this message has gotten out there now that it's not awesome
01:44:50to be among, uh, in a college where there are twice as many.
01:44:53So no, no, no strong evidence for a thumb on the scale against men.
01:44:57The exception is Title IX carves out private undergraduate colleges and undergraduate
01:45:04admissions.
01:45:04And the reason they did that was otherwise you would have at a stroke abolished the single
01:45:07sex colleges.
01:45:08You wouldn't have been able to have single sex colleges.
01:45:10You have to let Wellesley only admit women, right?
01:45:13But the result of that is that those colleges do have a thumb on the scale in favor of men
01:45:17now to try and stay closer to 50/50.
01:45:20So it's an open secret that it's a bit easier to get into those elite colleges.
01:45:24If you're a guy, then if you're a woman.
01:45:25Did you see there was a dating, um, singles mixer that happened in New York and women were
01:45:36charged a hundred dollars to attend and men will let in free.
01:45:40You're a nightclub promoter.
01:45:43The ratio was still three to one women to men.
01:45:46Yeah.
01:45:47So the sex ratio in New York is similar to, well, it's a bit more, but it's not far off
01:45:51what it's going to be on college campuses.
01:45:52Yeah.
01:45:52No, the sex ratio is not like that in New York as a whole.
01:45:55In fact, we, we have empirical data on this.
01:45:57We've looked at the sex ratios by county and you've seen a shift.
01:46:00So there are twice as many, uh, majority male counties today as there were 20, 30 years ago.
01:46:06Um, largely because of out migration, we think out migration by women.
01:46:08And then there are some urban counties, of course, where it's the sex ratio is where
01:46:12there are a lot more women than the sex ratio of the singles.
01:46:16No, but we did look, um, within age cohort and we do see a difference, but it's of course,
01:46:20nothing like as dramatic as three to one.
01:46:22Yeah, it just skews a little bit.
01:46:24You know, there's something going up.
01:46:25Maybe it's a selection mechanism that guys have checked out of the dating market.
01:46:30Uh, maybe it's that women are pushing more towards trying to find partners, but.
01:46:35Yeah.
01:46:35But your example suggests like the men, like there are more women than men of dating age.
01:46:40Let's put it that way in New York and.
01:46:42Who are motivated to.
01:46:44But then the question is like, who's out, right?
01:46:45Like who's motivated?
01:46:46Yeah.
01:46:46Who's in, who's like, you can, uh, are you in the market to come back to the analogy that
01:46:50I didn't like earlier, but like, are you, are you out there doing it?
01:46:52And so there we might see, and you see like women are more like to travel now than men.
01:46:56I do think it's like, I, I don't see any empirical evidence for this, but my anecdotal
01:47:01sense of it just sort of traveling around as I do kind of come back now.
01:47:03It's like when you were in a restaurant or a kind of bar now, if you see a group of young
01:47:07people together for a night out, I think it's more likely women now.
01:47:10Again, no strong empirical evidence on that, but I just think that those kinds of public
01:47:13spaces, um, if anything, maybe still a little bit more, more female.
01:47:17If you zoom out for 50 years, what do you think happens for men over the next few decades?
01:47:27Are you optimistic, pessimistic?
01:47:28What are you most concerned about?
01:47:30What are you most hopeful for?
01:47:31Uh, I look, I'm an inveterate optimist.
01:47:34Uh, I do think the glasses are full, but for me, I've come to realize is that my optimism
01:47:41isn't just an orientation or a personality trait.
01:47:45It is that, I think for me, it's getting close to something like a virtue that to think well
01:47:53of the future, um, is, is valuable in and of itself.
01:47:58Um, because I think otherwise the kind of messaging to young people more generally is so relentlessly
01:48:04negative and then we kind of blame them for feeling down.
01:48:06Right.
01:48:07Um, I'm, so I'm pretty optimistic.
01:48:08And the reason I'm optimistic is cause it's, it's a hell of a mess right now.
01:48:12Like it's very messy.
01:48:13It's goopy, uh, figuring it out.
01:48:15Some of the stuff we've talked about here and argued about here just shows you that particularly
01:48:18for kind of young men and young women just kind of figure out this new, these new realities.
01:48:22But I think we're kind of past the sort of, we're breaking past, I hope more of the zero sum.
01:48:28We are getting more to kind of world where young men and young women are kind of trying
01:48:32to figure this out in good faith.
01:48:34And I think they will figure it out.
01:48:35I don't know how, but we always have.
01:48:38One way or the other.
01:48:40And I think we will again.
01:48:41And I think that people are ready to get past some of the bullshit ideological traps that
01:48:46people have been trying to put us in for too long.
01:48:49I really think there's a hunger for that.
01:48:50I hope so.
01:48:51Cause one of the byproducts that you have of lots of conflicting messages, you know, you said
01:48:57the pinball or the male vertigo masculinity vertigo, um, where men don't know what they're
01:49:04supposed to be.
01:49:05They're supposed to be masculine on a Monday and then soft on a Tuesday and then a tyrant
01:49:09on a Wednesday and then, you know, you're in therapy on a Thursday.
01:49:12Yoga on Friday.
01:49:13Yeah, exactly.
01:49:14Um, one of the problems I think that can come out of that is a type of.
01:49:18If there's lots of conflicting messages, it doesn't convince you of any one particular
01:49:25message.
01:49:25It just makes you immune to being convinced apathy, right?
01:49:30That this is what a disinformation and a misinformation campaign is supposed to achieve when it's done
01:49:34en masse as a, uh, information warfare by a foreign adversary.
01:49:38It's not to convince the populace of one thing or another all the time.
01:49:42Sometimes it's just to make them distrust all advice.
01:49:46Yes.
01:49:46And I think that, you know, the checking out of men, the retreat, that you have, uh, a poll
01:49:53in, uh, screens, video games, porn, weed, sedation hypothesis.
01:50:00But this is another twist of it, which, and you're right, but this is, uh, there is an
01:50:04attractor, which is, it may be difficult to convince men to, uh, not go out into the real
01:50:12world and try to make stuff happen through conflicting messages.
01:50:17If it wasn't for the fact that there's something else that they can do, like these two things
01:50:21need to be happening at once.
01:50:22Yeah.
01:50:22There's a push and a pull.
01:50:24Correct.
01:50:24Yes.
01:50:25Correct.
01:50:25And they're both going in the same direction.
01:50:26That's why, I mean, you've talked, I know you've talked a lot, but that's why I think it's
01:50:30consistent with crime going down, even as more young men are disengaged, which is historically,
01:50:35I think, unprecedented, which is the kind of sedation or sometimes like they're on the screens,
01:50:39not on the streets is another way to think about this.
01:50:42Um, and in some ways I think that makes it a harder thing to get attention to.
01:50:45Right.
01:50:45I think if there was, if we did an increase in crime among young men, if we were seeing
01:50:49like more antisocial behavior, et cetera, then I think it would be very close to the top.
01:50:52Sound the alarm.
01:50:53Yes.
01:50:54Because it's more of a silent retreat and very often because, you know, turning inward,
01:50:57that's less likely to sound the alarm.
01:50:59But I actually think in the end, most people do want to flourish and they do want to find
01:51:05someone to be with.
01:51:06And I think that women and men are both seeking partners and someone who's got someone about
01:51:10them.
01:51:10Right.
01:51:11It's got agency.
01:51:12It's got forward momentum, got optimism.
01:51:14I think that's going to win.
01:51:15I think it always has won.
01:51:16I don't know how it will win this time, but I'm sure it will.
01:51:20Yeah.
01:51:20I just hope that uselessness doesn't beget more uselessness.
01:51:23Sedation doesn't beget more sedation because it's, you're going to have to reverse the trend
01:51:28here, right?
01:51:29Like you can say, we're worried about there being too many people on the planet and the
01:51:32population bomb is a really big deal.
01:51:34You go, well, if that's going to stop or if that's going to slow down, it's going to require
01:51:38reversal of the direction.
01:51:40And the same thing is true now.
01:51:41If the trend is moving in the right direction and you're right, the line is between, do we
01:51:47want more useless men or do we want more dangerous men?
01:51:51If those are the two options that we have in front of us, that's not a particularly good
01:51:55fucking scenario.
01:51:56I would say 51, 49, it's better to have useless men than dangerous men, but that's only because
01:52:01we're in peace time.
01:52:02I would much sooner have competent, peaceful, right?
01:52:05Than useless or dangerous.
01:52:07I got sent this morning a new Institute for Family Studies survey.
01:52:12There's some cool stuff in here, which I think you might like.
01:52:14Institute for Family Studies survey of 2000 young men, aged 18 to 29, challenges nearly
01:52:20everything being said about the male crisis in America, including by its most prominent
01:52:23voices on both left and right.
01:52:2568% of unmarried men want to get married with another 21% unsure the crisis isn't lacking
01:52:31desire at circumstance.
01:52:3359% are not in a romantic relationship, but 74% of those men are open to dating.
01:52:39So there was that famous two thirds of men say that 50% of men in that age bracket say
01:52:47that they're not looking for casual or long-term relationships, that looks like it's changed.
01:52:5062% of childless young men want to be a father.
01:52:53Less than half of men aged 24 to 29 feel like adults, but the benchmarks most related to
01:53:01feeling like an adult are the traditional ones, marriage, parenthood, full-time work, completing
01:53:06education.
01:53:06Young men's number one role model is their mother, 79%, followed by their father, 69%.
01:53:15Andrew Tate ranked last among all prominent figures.
01:53:1989% say manhood requires willingness to sacrifice for others, challenging a manosphere narrative.
01:53:25Young men who completed trade school programs are employed full-time at almost identical
01:53:30rates to college graduates, 77% versus 80%, and even college-educated young men are skeptical
01:53:37of college with half saying it wasn't worth the time or money.
01:53:39There's a mixed bag in there, I'd say, wouldn't you?
01:53:42And you're like, I'm going, yeah, it's good.
01:53:46That was an emotional rollercoaster for me, Chris.
01:53:48I got to tell you, I was cheering half of it.
01:53:51I was up, I was down.
01:53:51I was like, oh, that's good, that's bad.
01:53:53Only 62% of childless men want to be a father.
01:53:56That sounds way low to me.
01:53:58Childless young men, right?
01:53:59That's under 29.
01:54:00Wow.
01:54:02Want to be a father?
01:54:03I don't know whether intent to become a father.
01:54:06It'd be interesting to see how they worded the question.
01:54:07Want to become a father.
01:54:08Because it's interesting, there was this NBC poll that came out not that long ago, it got
01:54:12a lot of attention, where they ranked young men and young women whether they'd voted for
01:54:17Harris or not, or Trump.
01:54:18And number one for the Trump-voting men was family and kids.
01:54:22And actually, men are a bit more likely to say that they want to get married and have
01:54:26kids now than women are.
01:54:27That's a reversal.
01:54:28So I'm finding that 62% number seems low.
01:54:31I think the anti-college thing worries me because the ROI on college is the same for men as it
01:54:36is for women, roughly speaking, and presumably could increase if you were to go to college
01:54:40now, if in 10 years time we were to look at how valuable a male college graduate is in
01:54:45the workforce, because they're going to be increasingly rare.
01:54:48Yeah, just in terms of, I mean, this is another thing I've had this argument with Scott about,
01:54:53which is that actually college graduates are getting married as much as they have for the
01:54:57last 40 years, right?
01:54:58There hasn't been a collapse in marriage among college graduates, even though there's this
01:55:01massive gender gap in college, right?
01:55:04The collapse in marriage has been among those without a college degree.
01:55:06That's a huge class gap.
01:55:07And so the kind of fretting about who will my daughter marry now that she's got a college
01:55:12degree is like, that's just completely unfounded.
01:55:14It's a flat line.
01:55:15And in fact, if anything, maybe a bit more likely to stay married than their mothers were
01:55:19because the divorce rate's gone down a bit.
01:55:20So because fewer people are getting married?
01:55:22Yeah, well, not among the college educated.
01:55:24That's the thing.
01:55:25Like the line, the marriage rate, it's about 90%, the marriage rate among college educated
01:55:30American women basically hasn't changed for the last 40, 50 years.
01:55:34Among men, college educated men.
01:55:36The same because they're matching with college educated women at about the same rate.
01:55:41Even though there's a smaller number of percentages.
01:55:43Exactly.
01:55:44But I mean, it's a bit of a nuance here.
01:55:46We've published on this is actually college educated women have always been willing to
01:55:49marry non-college educated men and continue to.
01:55:52So like 20% of them, of the women with a college degree.
01:55:54Why call it a blue collar?
01:55:56Yeah.
01:55:56And it's like, it's a very elitist conversation this because people, when they're talking about
01:55:59this, they're talking about someone who went to some sort of fancy college, right?
01:56:01But in my family, I've got nurse married to a plumber, right?
01:56:05Nursing requires a college degree, right?
01:56:06Does anyone out there think that nurses are looking down their noses at plumbers?
01:56:09If he's making a good living and he's doing well, he's working hard.
01:56:11No, I don't.
01:56:12The idea that somehow, you know, or a teacher won't marry a carpenter or it's just nonsense.
01:56:18So the marriage and the marriage rate is actually if anything slightly up.
01:56:21So there was mixed in there.
01:56:22I didn't like the courage.
01:56:23But yeah, the thing I also think was untrue.
01:56:26It said challenging this idea in the manosphere that men don't sacrifice themselves.
01:56:3289% say manhood requires willingness to sacrifice for others, challenging the manosphere narrative.
01:56:37Well, as a prominent proponent of the manosphere, I would say that you think men should sacrifice.
01:56:44Men should sacrifice themselves, right?
01:56:46I think that they've just been kicked out of the manosphere.
01:56:48I don't know which manosphere they're talking about.
01:56:50I mean, I guess, and also the Tate thing, of course, the Tate thing was really interesting.
01:56:53And I don't know if we talked about this last time.
01:56:55I mean, it really came back.
01:56:56And there was a kind of, I guess I've lost my friends at the New York Times by this point
01:57:00in the interview anyway.
01:57:01But like there's a New York Times headline drove me mad.
01:57:04I think I wrote about it publicly.
01:57:05Tate returns, MAGA celebrates.
01:57:08And so I went through it.
01:57:10That's very interesting because I've actually heard or read Josh Hawley, Megan Kelly, DeSantis,
01:57:18DeSantis AG all condemning Tate.
01:57:20Shapiro doesn't like him.
01:57:21Shapiro condemned him.
01:57:23They all condemned him in that moment, right?
01:57:25All that.
01:57:25So I'm like, who are you talking about?
01:57:27And it turned out that it was the young Republicans of so-and-so county in Florida
01:57:31had said, we're happy he's back and we'd love him to come speak to us.
01:57:33It was literally the only people they could find celebrating.
01:57:36But the headline was MAGA celebrates.
01:57:38Because again, that kind of fit, right?
01:57:40We like this idea that kind of MAGA wanted Tate back.
01:57:43But actually the truth was, I did write about this.
01:57:45It was like, everyone hates Andrew Tate.
01:57:47And that should be when radical feminists are shoulder to shoulder with Josh Hawley and Ben
01:57:52Shapiro condemning Andrew Tate, then surely we can take that as a win.
01:57:57Like, isn't this a win?
01:57:58Isn't that the headline?
01:58:00I think we're going to see more around the men's movement, MRA, come Manosphere, come
01:58:08Incel, Blackpill, Lux Max in Moggin community.
01:58:11Especially after Ross Camp and this Louis Theroux documentary.
01:58:15I can't wait for you to watch it.
01:58:16This Louis Theroux documentary on Netflix.
01:58:18It's his first ever Louis Theroux documentary on Netflix.
01:58:22And he said it's the final video game boss of his entire career because it's all of the
01:58:26things.
01:58:26It's casual sex with OnlyFans.
01:58:29It's sort of conspiracy theorist, which he's done in a turn.
01:58:33It's sort of almost cult-like behavior, which he's done previously.
01:58:36It's financial grift, which he's been a part of as well.
01:58:38All bundled up into this sort of TikTok-ification version for 2026.
01:58:44And I, with adolescence, with the way that Louis' doc was presented, I do think that we're
01:58:54going to see more of a moral panic around what's happening with young men.
01:58:57I think that it's going to look a lot like these guys are being led astray by bad actors.
01:59:07There is limited hope.
01:59:10Socially, they are learning not to sacrifice for others, but to dominate and be domineering.
01:59:18Yeah, very much so.
01:59:18Selfish.
01:59:19Very self-serving.
01:59:20It's not great.
01:59:23And for all that I can keep on doing podcasts that I think are accurate and balanced and
01:59:30hopefully really educate people about what's actually going on, I don't have the reach
01:59:36of fucking huge documentaries or series.
01:59:39Adolescence was a global fucking phenomenon.
01:59:42It was a huge hit.
01:59:43And it was great drama.
01:59:44It was a great TV show apart from some of the natural elements.
01:59:49And again, I just think there's a lag here.
01:59:52I actually think that it's a little bit out of step now and that enough people are starting
01:59:57to say the moral panic around men, the pathologization of young men, the demonization of young men
02:00:04is exactly the wrong thing to do.
02:00:06And that kind of narrative ruff that everyone's in, like the easy thing to say, I just think
02:00:12it's out of date and people are realizing that.
02:00:15And they're realizing it has not worked out well for anybody, for us as a society to point
02:00:20our fingers at young men and say, what the hell is wrong with you?
02:00:23You're either lazy or useless or you're being radicalized or whatever.
02:00:26There's long litany of things that are wrong with you.
02:00:29I just think enough people are kind of realizing that that's A, just unbelievably lacking compassion
02:00:35and B, massively counterproductive.
02:00:37So you're right.
02:00:37The place that I actually think is doing the worst at this is online.
02:00:43It's streaming culture and it's YouTube because there are not many reasonable voices that do
02:00:50big plays on social media.
02:00:54There's just not.
02:00:54Wouldn't you count yourself among those reasonable voices?
02:00:58Aren't you a big platform?
02:00:59I would, yeah.
02:01:00But I think if you're talking about people who are genuinely engaging with the issues
02:01:04of boys and men and of mating and dating and birth rates and stuff like that, it's certainly
02:01:10in the minority to be a part of the gentle manosphere than it is to be a part of sort
02:01:14of militant, aggressive feminism or to be a part of classic-
02:01:19Reactionary anti-feminism.
02:01:20Exactly.
02:01:20Masculinism.
02:01:21Yeah.
02:01:22It's not superbly sexy.
02:01:25You know, when I sort of look around at whatever motley weird Avengers group that I've got,
02:01:32it's like me, you, Arthur Brooks, Scott Galloway, Mack and Murphy, William Costello, Rob Henderson,
02:01:40maybe Andrew Thomas.
02:01:41Like it is, it's a Alexander Date psych, but he's sort of stepped away from things now.
02:01:49It's, I'm not, it would be Stephen Shore kind of, but he's not really talking to men.
02:01:53Like, you know, it really sort of runs flat pretty quick.
02:01:56I don't know who else is engaging with this stuff.
02:02:00And then when you were to look at who does fucking huge plays that push the narrative
02:02:07in a much more bombastic way, like it's-
02:02:10I don't know.
02:02:11I mean, the long run way to win this is just to keep doing it, Chris.
02:02:17All right, I think this whole idea that there needs to be this kind of huge play is going
02:02:21to change.
02:02:21This is going to change slowly.
02:02:22And I also think we should give a little bit of credit to some of the people consuming
02:02:26this content.
02:02:27I think a lot of young men in particular are perfectly willing to listen to this conversation
02:02:31and agree or disagree with us, but probably agree that we're having a good faith conversation
02:02:35as you do with others and realize that that is different to what they're going to get from
02:02:39certain other producers.
02:02:41Right.
02:02:41I go there if I want a quick laugh or an eye roll or whatever, but I come here if I want
02:02:46a more serious conversation.
02:02:47And then if I get sufficiently enticed, I'll go and read some of the AIBM's policy briefs,
02:02:51right?
02:02:51No question it's going to go viral.
02:02:54It doesn't get any better than that.
02:02:55But people are able to be more discerning about the difference between these content types.
02:03:00And if you look at their actual behavior and what's happening, I'm just much more hopeful.
02:03:03But just keep doing the work.
02:03:05And then over time, I don't know if this is going to be a good example or not, but I have,
02:03:10although he put money on his reading list, not always been thrilled with the way President
02:03:14Obama has talked about this issue, especially in the run-ups of the last election.
02:03:18But on the podcast he did with his wife not long ago, he said, and I quote, we've quite
02:03:23rightly invested in the girls, create a level playing field so that we can have equality.
02:03:28We have not been as intentional about investing in the boys.
02:03:33And that has been a mistake.
02:03:35And people are starting to recognize that.
02:03:38When Obama is saying that now, of course, the only bit that got covered from that podcast
02:03:44was the brief discussion about their so-called marital difficulties in the first three minutes.
02:03:48The remaining one hour long conversation about the challenges of boys and men that he had
02:03:53with his wife and his wife's brother, whose name I've forgotten, that didn't get covered.
02:04:00But it's there.
02:04:00And so I just think bit by bit, person by person, governor by governor.
02:04:05Ruben Gallier goes out there with his very episode by episode.
02:04:10And because it's actually what people want in the end.
02:04:14Also because it's the truth.
02:04:15The truth will, in the end, I do think it's, and people can tell the difference between
02:04:19something that's truthful and not.
02:04:21Heck yeah.
02:04:21Richard Reeves, ladies and gentlemen.
02:04:22Richard, where should people go to keep up to date with whatever you've got going?
02:04:25Well, those policy briefs I mentioned are all out.
02:04:26Stop trying to push your policy.
02:04:28No one's reading your fucking-
02:04:29Our policy brief on sports betting is the best piece of policy work out there on the very
02:04:34live issue of sports betting.
02:04:35So aibm.org.
02:04:37Cool.
02:04:38Richard, I appreciate you.
02:04:38So fun.
02:04:39Goodbye, everybody.
02:04:40Dude.
02:04:41Yes.
02:04:42So good.
02:04:43Get a go.
02:04:44That was so fun.
02:04:47It was.
02:04:47Thank you very much for tuning in.
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