00:00:00How do you describe your area of research focus?
00:00:04So my research focus is the evolutionary psychology of human behaviour.
00:00:10And in the last few years in particular, I've really narrowed that focus down a bit
00:00:14to look at female intersexual competition,
00:00:18which is just a big fancy word for how women compete with each other
00:00:23to see who gets the largest share of the population's reproductive success.
00:00:27Okay, what is it trying to achieve?
00:00:31Fundamentally, what does female intersexual competition try to do?
00:00:35So the currency of evolution is reproductive success.
00:00:39The genes that promote reproductive success increase in frequency in the population
00:00:44and so whatever mechanisms and behaviours they produce will also increase in frequency.
00:00:50So female intersexual competition is the suite of behaviours
00:00:53that have evolved to maximise an individual's relative reproductive success,
00:01:00not absolute reproductive success.
00:01:02And that's a pretty important point.
00:01:03So you don't need to have as many babies as it's humanly possible to have
00:01:09to win the evolutionary game.
00:01:11What you do need to do is reproduce at a greater rate
00:01:15than the average reproductive rate for your population.
00:01:18And if that continues to happen in your lineage, generation after generation,
00:01:22then you increase your representation in that population
00:01:26and you win the evolutionary game.
00:01:28So it's relative reproductive success that matters.
00:01:30So you can win by increasing your own reproductive success
00:01:35or attempting to inhibit the reproductive success of rivals.
00:01:39Both of those will increase your net reproductive success.
00:01:41Okay, so you can put your foot on the gas of how many surviving children you have
00:01:47or you can try to put your foot on the brake of how many surviving children
00:01:51other women have.
00:01:53Exactly.
00:01:54Okay.
00:01:55This doesn't paint women in a particularly flattering light.
00:02:02How conscious is this?
00:02:04Is it all women?
00:02:06Oh, excellent.
00:02:07You've hit on my least favourite question straight away.
00:02:10How conscious is this?
00:02:12Fuck me.
00:02:12Okay.
00:02:13Thanks, Dani.
00:02:14No, that's okay.
00:02:15No, that's fantastic.
00:02:16It's the question I get the most often
00:02:18and you'd think I would have invested some time in coming up with a better answer.
00:02:21I try to answer it a little bit differently each time
00:02:23in the hope that it's a more satisfactory answer.
00:02:26So how conscious people are, unclear.
00:02:30Unclear, it varies from person to person
00:02:33and it probably doesn't really matter very much.
00:02:37So understanding what, very briefly,
00:02:42understanding what consciousness is and for is a really difficult question
00:02:45and there's no consensus.
00:02:46How it operates with respect to sort of evolved behavioural tendencies
00:02:52is it develops kind of post hoc justification
00:02:57for what you've done and why you've done it.
00:02:59In fact, that's sort of what consciousness does with all behaviours, really.
00:03:02You ask people why they've done something they don't know, right?
00:03:05We can do an experiment where we manipulate the information that people get
00:03:09and they don't know we've manipulated that
00:03:10and then we ask them why they made their decision
00:03:12and they just make something up
00:03:13and they don't know they've made something up, right?
00:03:14So people generally don't know why they're doing what they're doing.
00:03:17So the majority of people, not just women,
00:03:21but people generally really don't know why they're doing what they're doing.
00:03:25They don't know why they find this particular person attractive.
00:03:28They don't know it's because the shape of their face signals
00:03:31that they have particular levels of testosterone or oestrogen
00:03:35that contribute to fertility and particular behaviour
00:03:37in really nice adaptive ways.
00:03:38They just look at someone and go, "Oh, he's hot. She's nice."
00:03:41But they don't have to understand why.
00:03:44And so women and men,
00:03:46because intersexual competition applies to men as well,
00:03:48it's just a completely different ball game when it comes to men.
00:03:53They don't have to understand that the consequences of their behaviour
00:03:56is inhibiting the reproductive success of other women.
00:04:00They just have to be compelled to behave that way.
00:04:03So it doesn't necessitate that women be sort of overtly aware
00:04:08of some nastiness in their behaviour.
00:04:10Having said that, though, women are definitely overtly aware
00:04:14of much nastiness in their behaviour, as most women will attest to.
00:04:18Most women have been the recipients at some point or another
00:04:21of the bullying behaviour from other nasty women.
00:04:24So women certainly have the capacity to be absolutely directly,
00:04:28overtly and knowingly nasty and awful to each other.
00:04:31I mean, that's a given.
00:04:34So maybe they're sometimes conscious of the consequences of what they're doing.
00:04:39Sometimes, you know, if you look at it through a feminist lens -
00:04:42this is something else that I've talked about a little bit -
00:04:46women are very conscious of what they're doing
00:04:48in terms of how the ideologies affect the reproductive success of other women.
00:04:52But they think that's a good thing, right?
00:04:54They think motherhood is a form of oppression
00:04:57and marriage is a form of subjugation.
00:04:59And so if you can free women from those things -
00:05:02this is obviously a certain branch of feminism, not necessarily all -
00:05:05but if you can free women from those things, well, that's a great thing.
00:05:08So they can be well aware that this is, you know,
00:05:10reproductively inhibiting ideology without necessarily thinking
00:05:14that they're being mean or nasty or whatever by doing it.
00:05:18Yeah, I think as well some women would agree
00:05:22that they have been mean and nasty
00:05:24and that other women have been mean and nasty to them.
00:05:27But that's almost kind of like - not quite right -
00:05:31but that's like the proximate explanation.
00:05:34She's a bitch. I don't like her.
00:05:37She's annoying, she's a slut, whatever.
00:05:41The leap from that to some of that behavior
00:05:47is trying to suppress the future child-having potential of that woman.
00:05:53The more ultimate explanation, I guess.
00:05:55Yes.
00:05:57That feels like a big leap
00:06:01that I think very few women would be able to make themselves,
00:06:04even when they've been the recipient of it.
00:06:06I don't know whether many women would say,
00:06:08"Well, the reason that she ostracized me at work
00:06:12or the reason that she vented and did the 'bless her heart' thing
00:06:18to a mutual friend of ours
00:06:19that was going to tell the rest of the world that I had casual sex last week."
00:06:22Like, those things are - it's the game within the game.
00:06:28It's not the game itself.
00:06:30Does that make sense?
00:06:31Yeah, it does to some extent.
00:06:32And I think that even though you're right
00:06:34that most women might not make the connection
00:06:36between what's happening and ultimate reproductive success,
00:06:39a lot of women do and very rightly make the connection
00:06:42between what's happening and physical appearance
00:06:45and physical attractiveness.
00:06:46So, as I'm sure you're well aware, as would be your listeners,
00:06:50I'm sure that physical attractiveness is a big part of female mate quality.
00:06:54And so that becomes a big part of your value on the mating market, if you like.
00:06:58And women are very well aware that the way that they treat other women
00:07:02and the way other women treat them is very strongly determined, often,
00:07:07by their appearance versus the other women's appearances.
00:07:11So that is something that women are very aware of.
00:07:15Explain what that dynamic would be.
00:07:18They're aware of other women's appearances.
00:07:20People are very - I mean, I assume this is my impression,
00:07:24but I think women are very aware of the phenomenon
00:07:27by which an attractive woman introduced into a workplace
00:07:32or a social setting or something is very likely to raise the ire
00:07:36of potentially many other women,
00:07:39simply because she's attractive and women will understand that.
00:07:42And sometimes when someone's being picked on or bullied or whatever,
00:07:46they'll say, "Look, it's just because she's jealous."
00:07:48And that's frequently correct to some extent.
00:07:51And so I think that there is a sort of understood relationship
00:07:57between female nastiness, bullying interactions,
00:08:01whatever you want to call it, relational aggression,
00:08:05and female appearance.
00:08:06And it's not just how attractive she is, but it's also how she dresses.
00:08:10- How much skin she's got. - Yeah, exactly.
00:08:13Who did the study where the participants were actually outside
00:08:19of the study waiting to go in?
00:08:20A woman comes past in one version wearing lots of clothes
00:08:23in one version being quite exposed, asking for directions.
00:08:27And the behaviour of the women is completely different
00:08:29despite the fact that it's the same woman.
00:08:31Who did that one?
00:08:33I want to say Mary-Anne Fisher, but I don't think it actually was.
00:08:36She's done almost all of the great one.
00:08:38I don't think it was, so I think it was someone else.
00:08:41- I feel like I'm wrong about that. - What it goes to show...
00:08:44What it goes to show is that women respond differently
00:08:47to the same woman who presents in a different way.
00:08:50And I'm going to guess that your explanation would be
00:08:55the smaller clothes wearing more skin on show woman
00:09:01presents more of a potential sexual rival
00:09:05and therefore mating threat to these women
00:09:07than the more demure version.
00:09:09Therefore, ostracising her helps to make her more hesitant,
00:09:14maybe lowers her self-perception, pushes her outside of the friend group,
00:09:19makes guys not be so attracted to her, et cetera, et cetera,
00:09:22in an attempt to bring that big advertising billboard
00:09:27of sexual availability down.
00:09:29Yeah, I mean, more or less all of the above.
00:09:31So it's really important to understand female
00:09:35intersexual competition signalling.
00:09:37So most of what women do that is sort of, I guess, under,
00:09:42you know, conventional wisdom thought to be done to impress men.
00:09:47So, you know, beautiful clothes, makeup, all that dolling up.
00:09:51Much of that is actually not targeted towards men at all.
00:09:55It's actually targeted towards other women.
00:09:56So it's interpreted by other women as signals of intersexual aggression
00:10:02and social aggression, dominance, those types of things.
00:10:07And if a woman is attractive, it's interpreted in a reasonably negative way.
00:10:13If a woman is less attractive
00:10:14and she's engaging in this sort of type of dolling-up behaviour,
00:10:17it's actually seen potentially a little bit more positively.
00:10:20So it'll be seen in a sort of dominant leadership competence type of way
00:10:24as opposed to a more aggressive sort of way
00:10:27to tell it's seen amongst attractive women.
00:10:30So when a woman turns up in a social scenario
00:10:35and she's signalling some level of sexual availability
00:10:39and looking quite attractive while doing it,
00:10:41that is itself actually an intersexual competition signal.
00:10:46She's basically sending a signal of sexual aggressiveness
00:10:50out to the women around her.
00:10:52And so the women around her respond to that aggressive signal
00:10:55with a form of aggression, a form of counter-aggression of their own.
00:10:58I wonder how many women that are listening
00:11:01have purposefully dressed down when they've been introduced
00:11:06to a new group of girl friends
00:11:08or have been newly placed into a different office
00:11:12with different co-workers and stuff like that.
00:11:15I have to guess if you have recognised the game,
00:11:18even if you don't fully understand the ultimate explanation
00:11:21of fertility suppression and ostracisation, blah, blah,
00:11:24you will know if I turn up with my boobs out,
00:11:29throughout my experience of life being a woman,
00:11:31I've noticed that women don't seem to like it so much
00:11:34when I turn up with my boobs out.
00:11:36So I'm going to wear something that's a bit different.
00:11:37So you've just been trained like an LLM over time
00:11:41to behave in one way as opposed to another.
00:11:44Yeah, that's right.
00:11:45And I would suspect that most women,
00:11:47even whether they realise it or not,
00:11:49would certainly moderate their dress
00:11:50in different social circumstances
00:11:53for the benefit of other women,
00:11:54not just for the benefit of men,
00:11:57but specifically for the benefit of other women.
00:11:59And it is no doubt experientially tuned,
00:12:04but I suspect too that these would be evolved tendencies.
00:12:10These are part of the evolutionary game.
00:12:12All evolved tendencies rely on having
00:12:15appropriate experiences for them to develop properly.
00:12:18And so I wouldn't want to put it down
00:12:20to a socialisation effect necessarily.
00:12:23How does female intra-sexual competition
00:12:26differ from male intra-sexual competition?
00:12:28You're sort of laying at the feet of women
00:12:30this fertility suppression thing,
00:12:31but surely the only job of men's genes,
00:12:35the currency that matters is also reproductive success.
00:12:38So is it not just the same for guys too?
00:12:40No, so there's a few differences
00:12:43between male and female intra-sexual competition,
00:12:46but I'd say that the fundamental one that matters
00:12:49is that for exactly the same reason
00:12:51that societies can send large numbers of men off to war,
00:12:55have them die and recover the population within a generation
00:13:00is the same reason why men don't tend to engage
00:13:04in manipulative reproductive suppression of rivals.
00:13:07So if a man seeks to suppress the reproductive success
00:13:12of another man or the group of another man,
00:13:15and even say, let's say he does that successfully,
00:13:17he convinces some large proportion of the population
00:13:21to effectively withdraw themselves from the gene pool.
00:13:24The remaining men, even if he has tremendous success,
00:13:27the remaining men will be able to pick up that slack,
00:13:30if you like.
00:13:31The same thing doesn't apply to women.
00:13:34In exactly the same way,
00:13:35populations don't send 40, 50, 60% of their women
00:13:40off to war to fight because if they did that,
00:13:42they would take them generations to recover
00:13:44because female reproductive success is capped.
00:13:47So male intra-sexual competition focuses much more
00:13:51on the side of the equation of maximizing
00:13:54your own reproductive success.
00:13:55It's much more just like a sprint race.
00:13:58Men are just like-
00:13:59- They only have a gas pedal, they don't have a break.
00:14:01- Yeah, they're in their lane, they're running hard,
00:14:04and they're just trying to get to the finish line
00:14:07as quickly as they can and get there faster
00:14:09or with more children than the other men.
00:14:11Women is like a running race,
00:14:13except every competitor is spending most of their time
00:14:16sticking out their arms and legs,
00:14:17trying to grab the other competitors, pull them back,
00:14:20trip them over, and the end result is that the entire field
00:14:23doesn't necessarily really go anywhere,
00:14:25which is why net reproductive success is so important.
00:14:29The entire field, as a whole, cannot move,
00:14:32and everybody can have relatively low reproductive success,
00:14:35but whoever is at the top of that relatively low number wins.
00:14:40So the games are very different.
00:14:43- It's fascinating.
00:14:44Look, I've had Candice Blake, Joyce Benenson,
00:14:47Corey Clark, Tanya Reynolds, like I've had a big suite
00:14:51of intersexual competition researchers on the show,
00:14:54and I never realized that the asymmetry
00:14:57in the ability for men to reproduce
00:15:01and for women to reproduce
00:15:03means that fertility suppression for men doesn't make sense
00:15:08because give a guy a good half hour break
00:15:13and a new glass of water and he's probably okay to go again.
00:15:17That's not the same for women.
00:15:20And that means that the both value, potential profit
00:15:25and potential cost of improving or restricting yours
00:15:31or a rival's mating success as a woman
00:15:34is so much more valuable because you've just locked in what?
00:15:38That's a two-year contract maybe of gestation breastfeeding?
00:15:43- Yeah, and way more.
00:15:45- Okay, but I mean, you can have another kid,
00:15:46like you can have two under two, right?
00:15:49- You can have two under two,
00:15:50but there are still massive opportunity costs involved
00:15:53in the fact that you've got one under two
00:15:55in terms of the two under two and your prospects of,
00:15:59if you didn't hold on to whoever the first mate was,
00:16:02your prospects of getting another mate,
00:16:05your prospects of being able
00:16:07to actually re-subsequent children needing more resources
00:16:09to do that and things like that.
00:16:11So even it's not even just restricted by the basic biology,
00:16:14which is obviously a massive restriction,
00:16:16but there's all of the flow on effects as well.
00:16:19Whereas men simply don't have those same concerns.
00:16:22Men can have, I mean, it's not quite as simple as that,
00:16:26especially in the modern world with courts enforcing
00:16:29sort of child support payments and things like that.
00:16:31But essentially men can have children
00:16:34from previous relationships and it is a much
00:16:39less serious impediment to them then embarking
00:16:42on a future relationship that might be more long-term
00:16:45that might then yield more long-term children
00:16:47in a more family-like environment.
00:16:49That's not really an option that's available to women
00:16:51unless they're prepared
00:16:52to wear the massive costs that go with it.
00:16:54- Yeah, I'm thinking about Tracy Viancourt's work.
00:16:57And there was that recent study that came out about
00:16:59men are more accepting of their political rivals
00:17:05than women are of their political allies.
00:17:08I think maybe it was Joyce Benenson
00:17:11or maybe it was Tracy that did the study
00:17:13looking at female basketball players.
00:17:16Sorry, male basketball players showed more physical affection
00:17:21to opposing team members on the court
00:17:24than female players did to their own team members.
00:17:27And you think like, ah, okay,
00:17:28it's an interesting data point.
00:17:31Do we really need to read into it all that much?
00:17:33What does this mean?
00:17:35But when you have this underlying narrative
00:17:39of the break pedal for women
00:17:42being something that is really useful for them,
00:17:46savage and mean and malignant,
00:17:48but useful from a reproductive standpoint,
00:17:51but it's not there for men.
00:17:52I think it's starting to explain to me
00:17:55a lot of the differences in male and female behavior.
00:17:58Sort of this, very much you said sort of a sprint race,
00:18:01this single thrust, make self as rich, famous,
00:18:05well-known as possible, must gain more muscle,
00:18:07must continue to go in the,
00:18:09as opposed to this entire suite of social skills
00:18:14that women have that men not only don't have,
00:18:19but can't even recognize.
00:18:21You know, when you and your girlfriend go into a workplace
00:18:26and she says something,
00:18:27she picks up on something that some girl did too,
00:18:29and you're like, "I didn't even know
00:18:31that there was a person here.
00:18:32I wasn't even looking.
00:18:33I was busy having fucking a pair of teeth."
00:18:36I think that it really begins to explain
00:18:41what drives that asymmetry.
00:18:43And it is one of the sexes has a break pedal and a gas pedal,
00:18:47and the other just has a gas pedal.
00:18:49- Yep, and I completely agree.
00:18:50And I think the intersexual competition angle, I think is,
00:18:55well, I mean, obviously it's kind of my thing.
00:18:58So I'm gonna say it as a fundamental explanation
00:19:01for almost everything, and I do that.
00:19:02So people can level criticism at me for that if they want to.
00:19:05But I do think that it's the fundamental explanation
00:19:08for why, you know, it's kind of well understood and accepted
00:19:11that women have better social skills generally than men, right?
00:19:14So that, you know- - Better lying detectors.
00:19:16- Oh yeah, better lie detectors,
00:19:18better at lying themselves, better manipulation,
00:19:20much better at following the, you know,
00:19:23the social intricacies like, you know, remembering
00:19:28who's friends with who and who said what when
00:19:30and did this person that,
00:19:31like one of my favorite little anecdotes.
00:19:34And I said this to a guy and his response was,
00:19:36"Oh my God, that happened to me too."
00:19:37So it was not just my husband,
00:19:39but my husband had a falling out once.
00:19:41It's not interesting,
00:19:42but he had a falling out once with a neighbor.
00:19:44And then, I don't know, about six months later or something,
00:19:47he bumped into him at the local supermarket
00:19:49and they had a chat and he came home and he said,
00:19:51"Oh, I saw such and such today."
00:19:53And I went, "Oh, are you two friends again?"
00:19:56And he sort of looked at me, like he'd just forgotten.
00:19:59He'd just forgotten that they hadn't spoken for six months
00:20:01because they weren't talking to each other
00:20:02and had a falling out.
00:20:04That is something that women would never do.
00:20:07That they would simply never forget
00:20:09that someone is not their friend anymore.
00:20:12It just doesn't happen.
00:20:13And so, I do think that this intersexual competition game
00:20:18that women play is a fundamental organizing principle
00:20:22of female social behavior.
00:20:23I really do.
00:20:24I think it dictates much of what women do much of the time,
00:20:28whether they realize it or not, of course.
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00:21:29That's a lovely description,
00:21:31an organizing principle of female social behavior.
00:21:34I think that's really cool.
00:21:36Before we even get into what are some of the different ways
00:21:39this behavior shows up,
00:21:41I imagine that there's many women listening
00:21:45who don't like the sound of their entire sex
00:21:49and much of their social behavior
00:21:50being painted in this kind of a light.
00:21:53Given that you're a woman, how have you found it
00:21:56best to, not even soften the blow,
00:22:02but to explain this in a manner
00:22:05that women become receptive to,
00:22:07as opposed to saying, "And you do this
00:22:09"and you're trying to get your friend
00:22:10"to break up with her husband
00:22:11"and she's eating herself out of a fertility window
00:22:14"and blah, blah, blah."
00:22:15- It's an interesting question, actually.
00:22:20Surprisingly, I get, well, I've so far,
00:22:23and I look at so far, I've been exposed, I think,
00:22:26by the nature of social media and whatever,
00:22:28I think I've been exposed to very friendly audiences,
00:22:30both male and female.
00:22:32So I think I've been spared, not entirely,
00:22:35but I've been largely spared too much of vitriolic pushback
00:22:39or even resistance.
00:22:40But actually, I get more resistance from men
00:22:44than I get from women.
00:22:45Most women look at me and just nod and just go,
00:22:50"Yep, that's exactly what it's like."
00:22:52- Do you think that's because they've been
00:22:54on the receiving end?
00:22:55- And every woman's been on the receiving end.
00:22:58Every woman, I think, has to some extent engaged in this,
00:23:01certainly with big individual differences,
00:23:04but I don't think there's any women who escape it either.
00:23:06And so women are very ready, even if they would, I imagine,
00:23:11would be almost definitely less ready to admit
00:23:13that they do it and less ready to admit particular instances
00:23:17in which they don't, although still in conversations,
00:23:19most people are pretty ready to admit to rather stupid
00:23:22or unkind or whatever things that they did,
00:23:24especially when they were younger.
00:23:25The cover of Youth always gives you some willingness
00:23:28to admit horrible things you did as an obnoxious teenager.
00:23:31But women have been the recipient of it.
00:23:34And so women just sit, many women just sit there
00:23:38and just look at me and just nod.
00:23:40And they're just like, "Yep, yep."
00:23:41I actually get most pushback from men whose impulse, I guess,
00:23:46and sort of 'cause we'll have this sort of verified
00:23:50from one man at least 'cause he came back to me later
00:23:52and explained this to me that this is exactly
00:23:54what was going through his head.
00:23:56I get pushback from men because their impulse
00:23:58is to defend women.
00:23:59Their impulse is to say, "You're a woman,
00:24:02"but I'm pretty sure this is sexist.
00:24:04"I can't quite square those two things at the moment,
00:24:06"but I don't like what you're saying."
00:24:08And I actually get much more pushback from men
00:24:11wanting to just somehow not accept that this actually
00:24:16is a fundamental explanation of how women behave.
00:24:19I think men are going to be blind to much of this behavior
00:24:23because they don't pick up on the frequency
00:24:27at which it's happening.
00:24:29They are almost never going to be on the receiving end of it,
00:24:33at least in quite the same way.
00:24:35And also you've got, like, I guess,
00:24:38maybe men would be on the receiving end of something,
00:24:40but they're not going to interpret it
00:24:41in that sort of a manner. - Yes, that's true.
00:24:44- Because they're blind to it.
00:24:45And you've just got the general women are wonderful effect
00:24:49showing up here that men and women prefer women
00:24:52for all things.
00:24:54Okay, so talking about some of the ways
00:24:57that this competition shows up in behavior,
00:25:00what about women's dating advice?
00:25:02How does it show up there?
00:25:04- So, yeah, so it definitely shows up
00:25:06in women's dating advice.
00:25:07I've done a few sort of, not boring,
00:25:10but some sort of formal academic studies on this
00:25:13showing that in a number of different scenarios,
00:25:15so whether it's relationship formation
00:25:17or deciding when to start having children,
00:25:19deciding whether to get married,
00:25:20when to start having children, once you've had children,
00:25:23whether to sort of stay home at a stay-at-home mom
00:25:26or go back to work, I have done a bunch of studies
00:25:30looking at relationship advice in these different scenarios.
00:25:33And the basic take home finding is that,
00:25:36yes, almost without exception.
00:25:39Yes, women give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:25:43to hypothetical women, whether these are sort of framed
00:25:45as friends or colleagues or whatever in the study.
00:25:49They give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:25:51to other women than what they say they would do themselves
00:25:54in those scenarios.
00:25:55So we use what women say they do themselves,
00:25:57what they say they would do themselves
00:25:59as like the benchmark for what they presume
00:26:01would be the most adaptive.
00:26:03And then compared against that,
00:26:04they give more reproductively inhibiting advice
00:26:06to other women.
00:26:07So they're more likely to tell other women
00:26:09about the importance of not staying home as a mom
00:26:13but going back to work than they are to say
00:26:15that they would see it as important for themselves
00:26:18to go back to work.
00:26:18And they're more likely to tell other women
00:26:20that they should delay having children
00:26:22and invest more in their career
00:26:23until they build up more career success
00:26:25than what they would say they would invest in career success
00:26:27before having children.
00:26:29So we see that formally, but I think it's perhaps more,
00:26:32more compelling or at least more interesting
00:26:35in the way we're beginning to see it informally
00:26:38sort of across mass media and social media.
00:26:42So it's been getting a lot of attention lately
00:26:44that I'm sure you would have seen them.
00:26:45The numerous articles just coming out with various titles,
00:26:49like, you know, I had an affair
00:26:51and it was the best thing I ever did for my relationship.
00:26:55And, you know, those that did the rounds a few days ago,
00:27:00Target, I think, have released their Valentine's Day range
00:27:03and there's a jumper for women that just says dump him in,
00:27:06yeah, of course, in giant text.
00:27:08And, you know, we're just being bombarded with the,
00:27:11and another good one too was I think that,
00:27:14I think it might've been called the article
00:27:15something to the effect of is having a boyfriend
00:27:18right wing coded and things like that.
00:27:22So we're seeing this sort of devaluing of,
00:27:26certainly devaluing of monogamous relationships
00:27:29and devaluing of committed relationships in public directory.
00:27:33And it also translates into the sort of, you know,
00:27:37individual one-on-one advice that women give to each other
00:27:40and it translates to the lab situation
00:27:42when we sort of try to go to formally measure it as well.
00:27:45- Okay, many of those articles will justify the points
00:27:50that they're putting forward as emancipating women
00:27:53from relationships that they shouldn't be in,
00:27:56encouraging their independence.
00:27:57Like why not go back to the workplace?
00:27:5950% of marriages end in divorce
00:28:01and you're gonna be stuck with no money
00:28:03and the kids look after and all the rest of it.
00:28:05You need to have your own life.
00:28:06It's important for you to do that.
00:28:08You can, you should get out of relationships
00:28:13that you shouldn't be in.
00:28:15Maybe you've got some questions about whatever it might be.
00:28:18I guess there is a pretty socially acceptable positive,
00:28:23some almost like socially philanthropic,
00:28:27I'm bestowing on you some of this interesting
00:28:30and useful advice that helps you push back
00:28:33against these like archaic and heavily structured,
00:28:37restrictive ideas and norms that are holding you in place.
00:28:40What you're saying, I think,
00:28:42is that would be all well and true
00:28:46if the women who said that
00:28:50also endorsed their beliefs in the behavior.
00:28:53Is that, so is that the sort of fun?
00:28:55Right.
00:28:57- Almost.
00:28:57So I think, so yes, you are correct that in some senses,
00:29:02if there was no evidence at all
00:29:04that there was any discrepancy
00:29:05in what women thought was best for themselves,
00:29:07what was best for other women,
00:29:09then we would just say, well, this is the female judgment
00:29:12of the trade-offs of the costs and benefits
00:29:14of staying in a relationship versus exerting.
00:29:17Yeah, fair enough, fine.
00:29:18And to some extent, that's true,
00:29:20except that of course, if we're talking about a game
00:29:25of sort of manipulative,
00:29:26inter-sexual competition, which we are,
00:29:28then there will be winners of that game,
00:29:31which are the women we're talking about,
00:29:32the women who espouse these anti-natal,
00:29:35anti-relationship ideologies, values,
00:29:39whatever you want to call them,
00:29:41but don't embody them themselves,
00:29:43but there will also be the losers
00:29:45of this inter-sexual competition.
00:29:46And these are the women who effectively buy
00:29:49into these ideologies all in,
00:29:52and both then espouse them, but also embody them.
00:29:55So we would actually expect to see both
00:29:58because if nobody is actually falling for this stuff,
00:30:01that's right, no one's actually falling for it.
00:30:03- It wouldn't work.
00:30:03It wouldn't work.
00:30:04- Exactly, then there's no payoff interest.
00:30:05- Ah, that's so good.
00:30:06- So there are winners and there are losers.
00:30:07- Danny, you're great.
00:30:08I fucking love when the penny drop,
00:30:10you have just seen a 3000 ton penny fall into my head.
00:30:14Okay, makes complete sense, right?
00:30:18That if every woman that was putting forward
00:30:22some anti-family creation, anti-reproductive stories,
00:30:27ideologies, and norms,
00:30:30if all of them weren't adhering to them,
00:30:33that's just another level playing field.
00:30:34There's no competitive advantage between that.
00:30:37So there have to be, we could call them leaders and followers.
00:30:42- Leaders and followers, winners and losers.
00:30:45In terms of thinking of it as a competition,
00:30:49that there are effectively,
00:30:50there are people who are winning this competition
00:30:51and there are people who are losing this competition.
00:30:54And I guess the most extreme example,
00:30:57I think of women who, in our world,
00:31:02of women who are losing this competition in a massive way.
00:31:06And it is a pretty extreme example, I'll grant you that,
00:31:10but more common than you might think,
00:31:11is women who are going out
00:31:13and in their very young and naive early twenties,
00:31:18going out and getting themselves made sterile,
00:31:20getting their tubes tied or severed or whatever.
00:31:23- That's how you win.
00:31:25- Yeah, yeah, oh my God, yes.
00:31:28No, that is a thing.
00:31:29Like it's not a massive thing, but oh no,
00:31:31that is, I promise you,
00:31:33that is absolutely, definitely a thing.
00:31:36But you know, with this idea that they're now free,
00:31:40that they can now have all the sex in the world they want
00:31:42and they don't have to worry about contraception failing.
00:31:45They'll never be tied down.
00:31:46They will, you know, they'll never have children.
00:31:49And what's interesting about this phenomenon is it,
00:31:52again, it's not just about them doing this to themselves.
00:31:56Clearly doing this has tremendous signaling value
00:31:59because once they go and do it, it then gets signaled.
00:32:03It then gets talked about and it gets celebrated
00:32:06and it gets shared upon social media
00:32:08and all the other women come in and tell them how,
00:32:10you know, what a wonderful liberating decision they've made,
00:32:14especially women in their late thirties
00:32:15with three or four kids,
00:32:16tell them what a wonderful liberating decision
00:32:18it is that they've made.
00:32:20No, this is definitely a thing.
00:32:21So I had a look at, I was looking up the stats on this
00:32:24for a research project I was sort of doing,
00:32:27a talk I was doing actually,
00:32:28based on a research project a couple of years ago.
00:32:31And the tubal ligation procedure is actually,
00:32:34we'll sort of invent it if you will,
00:32:36because the fallopian tubes is where,
00:32:39is the tissue that actually is responsible
00:32:41for ovarian cancer.
00:32:43And ovarian cancer, which you probably know,
00:32:44is a pretty bad one.
00:32:45It's really hard to detect until it's late stage.
00:32:48And so it's, you know, it's not good.
00:32:50It's not good to get ovarian cancer.
00:32:52And so a lot of women, once they are post reproductive
00:32:55and they've finished having kids,
00:32:56will just go and get their tubes taken out
00:32:58because that basically eliminates the risk of ovarian cancer.
00:33:01And so that's why the procedure exists.
00:33:04But of course, once that procedure exists,
00:33:07it now becomes a tool that can be used.
00:33:10And it is absolutely a thing
00:33:13that women are going and getting this.
00:33:14And so one statistic that is quite telling
00:33:17that I was able to locate is that depending on the data set,
00:33:21somewhere between 15 and 30%,
00:33:24which is a lot of the women who have this procedure,
00:33:28make inquiries about having it reversed.
00:33:31So I'm guessing that none of the women
00:33:33who are post reproductive age,
00:33:35who took these tubes out because of ovarian cancer fears,
00:33:38are amongst those looking to have it now reversed.
00:33:42So we're talking about somewhere between 15 and 30% of women
00:33:46who have had this procedure.
00:33:47Now, not all of those will have had it
00:33:49for some misguided form of permanent contraception.
00:33:53But you know, some people may have had this procedure
00:33:56for ovarian cancer reasons when they were very young,
00:33:59thinking they wouldn't want children
00:34:00and now really regret it.
00:34:02But there is certainly a substantial proportion of women
00:34:05who are having this procedure,
00:34:07thinking that they're going to be very happy
00:34:09being permanently sterile their whole life,
00:34:10only discover at some point
00:34:12that they're not happy with that decision anymore.
00:34:14- Wow.
00:34:15Wow, yeah.
00:34:17I mean, it really does put a different angle
00:34:21on articles like that Vogue one
00:34:23that went absolutely interstellar,
00:34:25is having a boyfriend cringe now?
00:34:27- Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of, yeah.
00:34:30- Oh, that was the one about the right wing?
00:34:31- I think so, yeah.
00:34:32- No, it was cringe.
00:34:34It was cringe, which I think is maybe equally toxic
00:34:38or maybe even more toxic than being right wing.
00:34:40'Cause at least if you're right wing,
00:34:41the other right wing chicks might like you.
00:34:42But if you're cringe, no other chicks like you.
00:34:45- Well, have you seen the stats on political orientation?
00:34:47There are no right wing chicks.
00:34:49This is the problem, right?
00:34:51- We're going to get into that.
00:34:52So I guess,
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00:35:53Give me, just using that is having a boyfriend cringe
00:35:58in our Vogue article, which almost everybody saw.
00:36:01Is it your suggestion that many of the proponents of that,
00:36:07perhaps even the author of that,
00:36:12is going to endorse but not follow that lifestyle?
00:36:17And because of that, they are able to gain
00:36:20from the relative reproductive success
00:36:22compared with the ones that don't get into relationships
00:36:25that take this dating advice?
00:36:27- I think that understanding the balance
00:36:30of who wins and who loses, I think is really difficult
00:36:34because this is the thing.
00:36:35You know you've got that like salesman,
00:36:38I always call it a Ponzi scheme
00:36:40and it's not a Ponzi scheme.
00:36:41It's got a different name, but you know that sales technique,
00:36:43that business model where you kind of sell
00:36:46what's effectively some form of snake oil, right?
00:36:49You sell some sort of snake oil to somebody,
00:36:51but the people you sell it to,
00:36:52you convince them sufficiently well--
00:36:55- Oh, it's an MLM, multi-level acting.
00:36:57- Yeah, that's right, there we go.
00:36:59And so you convince them and they then become the sellers.
00:37:02So they're now selling snake oil,
00:37:03but they believe in the snake oil, right?
00:37:05So the same thing happens
00:37:07with these reproductively inhibiting memes, ideas,
00:37:10whatever you want to call them.
00:37:11Many of the people who are then promoting them
00:37:15have also embodied them and taken them on board
00:37:18and genuinely believed them.
00:37:19But from an evolutionary perspective,
00:37:22it's still, their contribution to the game has not finished.
00:37:27So even though they may be effectively,
00:37:31depending on how well they actually embody
00:37:32this particular ideology,
00:37:34potentially for their entire reproductive capacity
00:37:37and end up genuinely on zero,
00:37:39that doesn't mean that they're done for, right?
00:37:41That they can still improve the reproductive success
00:37:44of their genes,
00:37:45assuming that they have relatives of any kind.
00:37:48They can still improve the reproductive success
00:37:51of their genes by continuing to promote
00:37:54this reproductive suppressive ideology to other women.
00:37:59So they would be selected for to promote it
00:38:03and sell it and pass it on,
00:38:05irrespective really of whether they're a winner,
00:38:09someone who's not going to embody it
00:38:10or a loser, someone who is.
00:38:13- I suppose. - So whether someone,
00:38:14yeah, supports this stuff, doesn't tell you,
00:38:15says they support this stuff,
00:38:17doesn't actually tell you which strategy they're adopting,
00:38:20the winning strategy or that they've been manipulated
00:38:23and they're on the losing team.
00:38:24- Yeah, I suppose it makes for a much better smoke screen
00:38:29or it makes your argument seem like it's coming
00:38:36from a much more philanthropic, positive some place
00:38:40if you believe the ideology that you're espousing, right?
00:38:45Like for instance, I don't know whether you know Alex Cooper,
00:38:48she does this podcast called "Call Her Daddy."
00:38:50I've said some stuff about that I actually disagree
00:38:52with myself on in the past.
00:38:53I think it must've been a very difficult world
00:38:55for her to be in where she started off doing this podcast
00:38:58talking a lot about casual sex,
00:39:00sleep with him and not catch feels, et cetera,
00:39:02like the classic 20s, like young girl casual sex thing.
00:39:06And then she was having this kind of secret relationship
00:39:08behind the scenes and then one day kind of revealed
00:39:10that she was engaged and had this very big library
00:39:15of episodes, but was like, he proposed to me in a rose garden
00:39:19and it was beautiful and this is the ring
00:39:20and I'm now doing the family pivot thing.
00:39:23I don't think that for a long time
00:39:29she would have been thinking anything other
00:39:32than I believe in this.
00:39:34I believe in this, like she's not, I don't think to see it.
00:39:38And this is where I changed sort of what I'd said
00:39:40retrospectively, I don't think that she was going,
00:39:44I'm going to encourage women to behave in this way.
00:39:47It's just a pretty effective meme.
00:39:49It sounds very positive some, it's much more progressive
00:39:53and modern and contemporary and sort of socially acceptable
00:39:58than the opposite, which kind of sounds restrictive
00:40:00and bourgeois, and then you get to the stage where,
00:40:05oh, I now need to embody this
00:40:09and my life is pulling me in a different direction
00:40:11and that's the point at which it becomes really interesting
00:40:14because you say, I said all of this stuff in the past,
00:40:17do I now still agree with me previously?
00:40:21Do I wish that I'd said something different?
00:40:23Was I too militant with the way
00:40:25that I was saying that stuff?
00:40:26So all of that together, I thought was pretty interesting.
00:40:29But one other angle to this, I suppose,
00:40:32that isn't necessarily dating advice
00:40:36for heterosexual relationships,
00:40:37but I wonder if the broad elite female support for LGBT
00:40:42or sort of non-typical relationship preferences
00:40:45is also a type of fertility suppression.
00:40:47'Cause I guess having a boyfriend or a husband
00:40:50might be cringe, but I bet that having a girlfriend
00:40:53or a wife wouldn't be cringe.
00:40:55- Correct, I agree 100%.
00:40:57So I have spoken a little bit before how I think that the,
00:41:01not just the sort of LGBTQ movement,
00:41:05but broadly, which I think it is,
00:41:08but also the transgenderism as well is also
00:41:11the reason why I think that the,
00:41:14I mean, the data on this, I think reasonably well known
00:41:18that it is almost by and large exclusively women
00:41:23who are really strongly in favor of gender ideology
00:41:26and are the pushers of gender ideology,
00:41:28which is why it has taken hold in industries and workplaces
00:41:32and whatever that are, that are dominated by women.
00:41:35And I think that too is because it has very clear
00:41:40reproductive suppressive implications.
00:41:43It was really interesting what you were saying
00:41:46about that podcast, if I can go back to that
00:41:49for just a second, because that also raises
00:41:50a really interesting dichotomy and that,
00:41:54or an interesting contrast.
00:41:56And that is because that for the vast majority of women,
00:42:01it would not be adaptive to reproduce
00:42:05when you become biologically able to reproduce.
00:42:08So there is this sort of tension amongst,
00:42:11you know, in the sort of human mating system
00:42:13that is created by the fact that women become
00:42:16biologically able to get pregnant
00:42:18long before it's actually adaptive necessarily
00:42:21for them to do so under most circumstances.
00:42:24There are circumstances where it would be adaptive,
00:42:27but under most circumstances, it's not adaptive to do that.
00:42:30And so women dudes definitely have a stage of life
00:42:34where it actually makes sense for them to engage
00:42:37in self reproductive suppression
00:42:40and to be discouraging themselves and obviously,
00:42:43and that used to manifest. - That's interesting.
00:42:45- Yeah, that used to manifest in encouraging, you know,
00:42:47young girls not to have sex effectively,
00:42:49but now it sort of manifests in quite different ways.
00:42:53And so we've actually got a situation where there is sort of,
00:42:57or already built into the system,
00:42:59there is this period of sexual maturity
00:43:02in which it's actually adaptive for women to,
00:43:06you know, even though they are capable of reproducing,
00:43:09it would actually be, you know,
00:43:10in terms of their long-term lifetime reproductive success,
00:43:13it would under most circumstances for most women
00:43:15be maladapted to get pregnant during that time period.
00:43:18And so it's not, therefore, to me,
00:43:20looking at things through an intersexual competition lens,
00:43:22it's completely unsurprising that that is the time period
00:43:26that, you know, feminism and women's lib has targeted
00:43:30as encouraging women to really, really heavily engage
00:43:32in risky sexual behavior because that is the one time period
00:43:36in which you don't actually want to get pregnant.
00:43:38And so we then see these same women's lib feminist type
00:43:43talking heads when it comes to talking about sex
00:43:46within marriage and all of a sudden that's unpaid labor
00:43:49and emotional labor and that's oppressive.
00:43:52And, you know, husbands have no right to demand sex
00:43:55off their wives.
00:43:56And yet when you're in your early twenties and unmarried,
00:43:59sleeping with, you know, every single man
00:44:02that gets within three feet of you, apparently,
00:44:03that's some form of liberation.
00:44:06It's an interesting dichotomy.
00:44:09The other really interesting thing that it raises
00:44:11that's also worth thinking about
00:44:13is that there is actually always a tension.
00:44:16When you want to signal something manipulatively,
00:44:19the best way to signal it is to do it
00:44:22or to look like you're doing it
00:44:24or to appear like you're doing it.
00:44:25And of course, the most effective way to appear
00:44:27like you're doing it is to actually do it.
00:44:29So any kind of manipulative signal, in some sense,
00:44:34is potentially costly to the signaler
00:44:36because they need to do this to themselves to some extent
00:44:40in order to convince their rivals to do it to themselves
00:44:44to a greater extent.
00:44:46And so there is this dangerous, very dangerous
00:44:50sort of cost benefit payoff matrix
00:44:53that women have to navigate when they're engaging
00:44:55in this type of manipulative signaling.
00:44:57And some manipulative signalers might just really,
00:45:01really get that cost benefit calculation very wrong
00:45:05and simply just engage in the manipulative behavior
00:45:08that the costly signal to a much greater extent
00:45:11than they can tolerate and effectively score
00:45:14a massive own goal.
00:45:16- Give me an example of how that might manifest.
00:45:18- So going back to the example of women
00:45:20who are getting themselves sterilized in their early 20s
00:45:23and then shouting all over it on social media.
00:45:26And there was one instance in particular,
00:45:28I remember of a girl who got her tubes set into resin
00:45:32so she could wear them around her neck as a necklace
00:45:34so that she could tell everybody she met
00:45:36that they were her fellow kids.
00:45:38- Jesus Christ.
00:45:40- Yeah.
00:45:40Poor girl.
00:45:42Anyway, but see, I imagine that is, you know,
00:45:47that is potentially, that is clearly a case of a woman
00:45:50who has now lost the intersectional competition gap.
00:45:52I mean, that is just a massive own goal right there.
00:45:54It's just, it's finished, it's over.
00:45:57But I imagine that, you know, the tendency to behave
00:46:02in these types of ways and to do these grand social gestures
00:46:06of, oh yes, I'm never going to have children.
00:46:09I'm, you know, children are terrible.
00:46:11That's not the life path that you should choose.
00:46:13It's not the life path I've chosen.
00:46:15The selective pressure on women to be, you know,
00:46:18highly intra-sexually competitive women to be compelled
00:46:21to engage in these kinds of grand gestures
00:46:23would potentially lead them to do things
00:46:26like get themselves perfectly sterilized.
00:46:30Exactly, they massively overshoot
00:46:31because the mechanisms have not evolved to deal
00:46:33with every individual instance of signaling behavior,
00:46:37you know, opportunity that might present itself.
00:46:40And so what could be engaged in, you know,
00:46:42motivated by mechanisms that evolved
00:46:44to effectively promote manipulative signaling
00:46:47might actually do the self a lot of harm.
00:46:50'Cause those mechanisms are not sensitive
00:46:52to their own outcomes.
00:46:53- Okay, so.
00:46:55- So we've got manipulated losers
00:46:58and we've got people who basically, you know,
00:47:01beat themselves in the game.
00:47:03- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - There's two types of losers.
00:47:04- So you said it's a massive own goal.
00:47:07Again, I think it's worth restating
00:47:10that what you mean when you say own goal
00:47:12is in terms of the currency that evolution cares about.
00:47:15- Correct.
00:47:16- Because if you take contemporary culture,
00:47:17people might say, what does it matter
00:47:19that she's got her tubes tied?
00:47:21She can have as much sex as she wants.
00:47:22She doesn't need to worry about childcare.
00:47:24She doesn't need to worry about her nanny.
00:47:25She can work and she can go out
00:47:26and she's never gonna get pregnant.
00:47:28Like that sounds like liberation.
00:47:30- It sounds like liberation.
00:47:32I mean, I would argue that it's not.
00:47:34And I'm not the only person who argues that it's not.
00:47:37I mean, I think that, I mean,
00:47:37I think Louise Perry has done a pretty good job
00:47:40of mounting the argument that women who engage
00:47:43in that type of behavior are typically
00:47:44not actually very happy.
00:47:46In fact, that they're quite miserable.
00:47:47And fast forwarding to much later points in life,
00:47:51'cause this has now been going on for long
00:47:52enough that we have, you know,
00:47:53we do have cohorts of women who are at the end of their,
00:47:58beyond the end of their reproductive years
00:48:00and who are now realizing that they've seriously missed
00:48:04a really important boat and are miserable
00:48:07and depressed and unhappy having, you know,
00:48:11sort of realized where these types of life choices lead you.
00:48:15And so, yeah, I'm speaking in terms of the, you know,
00:48:18the evolutionary consequences of these decisions.
00:48:21And that is a, reproductively speaking,
00:48:23obviously an own goal.
00:48:26But it's not that that is just some esoteric, you know,
00:48:31evolutionary calculation.
00:48:33These decisions have real life impacts on women as well,
00:48:35which we are now, which I mean, really,
00:48:37I think should have predicted
00:48:38they weren't gonna be a net positive.
00:48:40But now we are seeing that they are absolutely
00:48:44not a net positive.
00:48:46So these are absolutely having, you know,
00:48:48real life individual proximate impacts
00:48:50on the women who take these decisions as well,
00:48:52that generally don't seem to be good ones.
00:48:55- It is a fascinating duality to hear that casual sex
00:48:59is a form of sexual female liberation,
00:49:02but sex with your husband is unpaid labor
00:49:05or it's oppressive or subjective or whatever.
00:49:07It is really interesting, the duality of these things.
00:49:12I have a question, regardless of whether or not
00:49:16it would be evolutionarily useful from a resource perspective
00:49:21to try and do, do reproductive suppression strategies
00:49:24work against men?
00:49:26- That's an excellent question.
00:49:29So I would, so I think there's a two part answer
00:49:33and that the first part is generally no,
00:49:36because of the reasons we've already described.
00:49:39So in the limited circumstance where you were as a man,
00:49:43you are looking to actually get the partner of a rival.
00:49:48So you're looking to like mate poach.
00:49:50Yeah, then, you know, harming another man's, you know,
00:49:54potential reproductive output, you know,
00:49:55and doing things to him might help you.
00:49:58If it helps destroy that really sabotaging his relationship
00:50:01the way women sabotage each other's relationship,
00:50:03that might help you.
00:50:04But again, the reason you're doing that
00:50:06is not really cause you care about his reproductive successes
00:50:09because you've decided you want his partner
00:50:10for whatever reason.
00:50:13So, you know, for the reasons we talked about before
00:50:15the fact that other men can pick up the slack,
00:50:17the fact that there's very little men can do
00:50:19within themselves to actually move the dial
00:50:22on the population's background reproductive rate
00:50:25just means that the payoff matrix isn't there.
00:50:28However, there's a second part, I think, to that answer.
00:50:32And that is if we fast forward a little bit
00:50:35or maybe in a better way, zoom out a little bit.
00:50:38And instead of thinking at the moment,
00:50:40we've sort of thought and spoken mostly about this being
00:50:44kind of, you know, an individual on individual interaction
00:50:47or, you know, many on one or one on many.
00:50:52But once you reach the stage of reproductive suppression
00:50:57that I argue that we're at, so, you know,
00:50:59I know that you're aware that the birth rate is, you know,
00:51:02well below replacement level and is declining.
00:51:06And my argument is that in itself is because of manipulative
00:51:11reproductive suppression that that is in fact
00:51:13the ultimate explanation for what we're seeing.
00:51:16And I think that once you actually reach that point,
00:51:20then you perhaps do get to see a benefit to men
00:51:25of engaging in their own type of manipulative
00:51:29reproductive suppression.
00:51:30- Your weapon is now sufficiently powerful
00:51:33that you're able to do it at a broad enough scale
00:51:36that this might actually work.
00:51:37But how would that, we wouldn't have an evolved mechanism.
00:51:41We wouldn't have anything in our programming as men
00:51:44to be able to understand that surely we can't adapt
00:51:46to a novel situation that quickly.
00:51:48- That's a really good point.
00:51:51And that's why I don't, that's why my argument
00:51:53is that this is not a novel situation.
00:51:55This is actually, so what we're experiencing now
00:51:59with birth rate decline and the rise of feminist ideals
00:52:04and the feminization of the institutions.
00:52:07All of this is part of a repeated pattern that we see
00:52:10in civilization after civilization after civilization.
00:52:13This is not a unique idiosyncratic issue
00:52:17that has appeared in the West as a function
00:52:19of the particular social and technological forces
00:52:22that we sort of find ourselves living with.
00:52:25This is actually, this is the human mating system.
00:52:28It goes through these cycles.
00:52:31And so actually, yes, we have been here before
00:52:33and there has been selection pressure operating.
00:52:36And this is actually the system, this is not a bug.
00:52:39This is a system operating as intended.
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00:53:25When you say we have been here before,
00:53:27as far as I'm aware,
00:53:28we haven't really seen birth rates decline
00:53:31really ever below replacement.
00:53:33There's been incidents where I'm not wrong.
00:53:37- Yeah, no, that's not true.
00:53:38So certainly declining birth rates
00:53:41are part of the sort of suite of things
00:53:44that have been pointed to as things that we see
00:53:48in civilizations that are declining and degrading
00:53:51and reaching their end point.
00:53:53Same as we see that the price of sex going down
00:53:57and art becoming vulgar.
00:53:59We see marriage rates declining.
00:54:01We see birth rates declining.
00:54:02So Rome towards its, well, not towards its very end,
00:54:07a little bit earlier than its very end,
00:54:08but it had many policies in place
00:54:11that sort of what we're sort of calling a baby bonus
00:54:14to try to motivate women to get married and to have children
00:54:17because the fertility rate was declining so severely.
00:54:21And what happened in Rome,
00:54:23and I would hazard a guess it's a similar thing
00:54:25that's happening now,
00:54:26is the birth rate declined sharply
00:54:31primarily because the women were choosing to be liberated
00:54:36and to be free and to not be married and to not be mothers
00:54:40and to have careers and everything else.
00:54:42And that left a relatively small number of women
00:54:46having a relatively small number of children,
00:54:48which meant that those women
00:54:49were able to have sort of their pick of men.
00:54:51And so reproductive success amongst men,
00:54:54especially to some extent amongst women as well,
00:54:56but especially amongst men
00:54:58became restricted to the very elite of men.
00:55:01And the rest of men just basically got kicked out.
00:55:04- All right, okay.
00:55:05So women, that cultural adjustment
00:55:10which was anti-family, anti-coupling, anti-mating
00:55:15affected women more than it affected men.
00:55:18Many men wanted to mate, but fewer women did.
00:55:21And that basically skewed the sex ratio
00:55:25so that women had more power,
00:55:28but also so that the high,
00:55:31as happens to the tall girl problem, the high status men
00:55:34also relative get more power than they would have done.
00:55:37Okay, so reproductive suppression may work against men.
00:55:42We're not quite sure how ingrained
00:55:45that mechanism would be evolutionarily.
00:55:47So comparatively it's easier to influence women
00:55:51in this regard.
00:55:52Why is it the case then
00:55:54that women haven't developed a defense mechanism to this?
00:55:57Like, why would you leave the key hole in there
00:56:01if that vulnerability, we already know, what is it?
00:56:05F to M is like five times as many transitions as M to F.
00:56:10The ROGD, Rapid Unset Gender Dysphoria thing.
00:56:14- Eating disorder, social contagions as well.
00:56:17- Yeah, the social contagion thing is there,
00:56:19especially during puberty, right?
00:56:20I'm looking around, I'm scanning my environment,
00:56:22I'm vigilant for what's cool, what's hot, what's not.
00:56:24I need to make sure that I'm on trend.
00:56:26Why would human evolution not patch that bug
00:56:31so that females wouldn't be susceptible to this?
00:56:35Because surely that would be the ultimate game.
00:56:38Like I'm just a reproduction machine and you can't limit,
00:56:42you can't suppress my fertility no matter what you tell me.
00:56:45- Because it's not a bug, it's a feature.
00:56:49And this is the problem.
00:56:51So it's a bug for the women who lose, but the women who lose,
00:56:56it's not their genes that get passed on.
00:56:58For the women who win, who are engaging in this behavior,
00:57:01it's a feature because it promotes
00:57:03their reproductive success and so the genes perpetuate.
00:57:07- Would that not suggest, yeah, yeah, yeah, I told you right.
00:57:11Would that not suggest then that we are the progeny
00:57:13of the women who are the least susceptible
00:57:17to these sorts of things, given that they are the genes
00:57:19of the ones who didn't necessarily embody
00:57:22even if they maybe did endorse?
00:57:23- Yes, potentially.
00:57:27But the other part of the sort of system
00:57:30that makes this make sense is that human civilizations
00:57:35have got like this cycle.
00:57:37And so we only are able to see this type
00:57:41of female manipulative reproductive suppression
00:57:44that we see now under certain circumstances.
00:57:47And those circumstances include affluence and safety.
00:57:51And so when you've got societies that are not very affluent
00:57:54and not very safe, then the payoff matrix isn't there.
00:57:58Women are investing all of the resources that they have
00:58:01and all of the resources that they get to accrue
00:58:05into their own reproduction and into their own offspring.
00:58:08It's once you get to a point where we have the affluence
00:58:13of organized society that women have an opportunity
00:58:16to be able to accrue more resources
00:58:19than what they just need to pour in.
00:58:20You get like a law of diminishing returns.
00:58:24The resources that the elite women are effectively able
00:58:27to accrue, it's no longer adaptive
00:58:31to just keep pouring all of those
00:58:33into their own individual reproductive success.
00:58:35It now becomes more and more adaptive
00:58:38to start pouring this time, effort and energy
00:58:40into manipulative reproductive suppression of rivals.
00:58:44And the more affluent and the safer the society gets,
00:58:47the more the scales tip in that way.
00:58:50So because this is not an adaptive strategy
00:58:52under all circumstances,
00:58:54it doesn't reach fixation if you like.
00:58:57So it's, and so what you sort of end up with is,
00:59:01well, according to my theory,
00:59:03I should probably be careful to preface that
00:59:05because not everything, much of what I'm saying
00:59:07is not the sort of thing that you would be finding
00:59:10other people reaching any kind of consensus on, right?
00:59:13Like that's, I think most people understand
00:59:15that's pretty far out stuff.
00:59:16But according to the way I see it,
00:59:19the winners of this game enter a,
00:59:22effectively enter a sort of genetic bottleneck.
00:59:25So as fertility rates drop and the fertility rates
00:59:31are well below replacement,
00:59:33then the size of the mating pool is actually much,
00:59:35the effective population size is much smaller
00:59:38than the actual population size.
00:59:40So it may not necessarily look like a genetic bottleneck
00:59:43because we're not actually necessarily seeing
00:59:45a massive population crash.
00:59:47But when large numbers of the population,
00:59:50large numbers of women in the population are not reproducing
00:59:53and that does appear to be what's happening.
00:59:54So I think there might be modest falls in,
00:59:58amongst women who have children.
01:00:00I think there might be sort of modest falls
01:00:03in the number of children they're having,
01:00:04but I think that's largely being maintained.
01:00:07What's causing or what's sort of accounting
01:00:09for the large fall in birth rates is the massive increase
01:00:13in the number of women having no children.
01:00:15So what we're seeing is large numbers of women
01:00:17actually withdrawing themselves from the gene.
01:00:19- If you have one, the likelihood is you have 2.5,
01:00:22but the number, the proportion of women
01:00:24who don't have one at all,
01:00:25that is the big cohort that's contributing
01:00:28to birth rate decline.
01:00:29- Yeah, exactly.
01:00:30- Is it possible to have these sorts of conversations
01:00:34publicly without getting heat?
01:00:40- Yes, it is almost impossible
01:00:42to have these types of conversations.
01:00:44And look, I think the sole explanation I would say
01:00:48for me not yet having sort of really encountered
01:00:51any serious blowback is just lack of exposure.
01:00:53And you're right, that may well change now.
01:00:55- Good luck after this.
01:00:56- So be it, that's fine, that's fine.
01:00:58My life's been boring up until now, why not have some fun?
01:01:01- Wonderful.
01:01:02- But no, you can't.
01:01:05And I think one of the reasons,
01:01:07I think one of the main reasons why you,
01:01:08well, according to my theory,
01:01:11one of the main reasons why we can't have
01:01:12this particular conversation about birth rate declines,
01:01:16motherhood and reproduction,
01:01:19maybe other aspects of intersexual competition
01:01:22speak to more women directly and they can empathize with it
01:01:28and they can understand it.
01:01:29But once you start talking about birth rate decline
01:01:33and you start talking about women having children
01:01:37in particular, you're really just cutting straight through
01:01:41to the heart of the issue.
01:01:42Everything else is just peripheral.
01:01:45Everything else is just in service of birth rate decline.
01:01:49All the other aspects of female intersexual competition,
01:01:52they're just ultimately in service of birth rate decline.
01:01:54So giving women poor relationship advice,
01:01:57that's so that they will have either poor relationships
01:02:00or no relationships,
01:02:01which greatly reduces the likelihood of them reproducing
01:02:04or at least reproducing successfully.
01:02:07Because I'm sure you're aware that the stats are pretty clear
01:02:12on the costs of fatherlessness to children, right?
01:02:16That the outcomes are just systematically,
01:02:18substantially worse across the board for fatherless children.
01:02:21And so if you can encourage women to engage in behaviors
01:02:26that result in them being single mothers,
01:02:29that's not quite as good as resulting in them
01:02:31being not mothers at all, but it's pretty good.
01:02:33It's a pretty good way to damage
01:02:35their ultimate reproductive success.
01:02:37So we can talk about all the other issues
01:02:41and sometimes we can have a little bit of fun with it.
01:02:44People had a lot of fun with that haircut study that I did
01:02:47where women will advise other women to cut off more hair
01:02:51and they focus this kind of most strongly towards women
01:02:55that are perceived to be as attractive as they are.
01:02:57So like they're direct rivals on the mating market.
01:03:00And we can have a little bit of fun
01:03:01with these types of conversations.
01:03:03And I can have a little bit of fun with feminists sometimes
01:03:05about certain things.
01:03:06But once you get down to talking about birth rates
01:03:08in children and motherhood,
01:03:11now you're getting to the heart of the issue
01:03:12and that's not fun anymore.
01:03:14Now you're a serious threat to the ultimate reason
01:03:18for the strategy and it gets women very angry.
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01:04:33What is your perspective on women being encouraged
01:04:38to enter the workplace, by other women,
01:04:40how that plays into your perspective here?
01:04:43- So yeah, so I think that is,
01:04:45I mean, I think that, you know, that talk by her
01:04:48and then the essay she wrote,
01:04:49she's done a couple of podcasts.
01:04:51I mean, I think that was fantastic.
01:04:53So she's, I mean, she's like almost 100% correct
01:04:57in most everything that she says.
01:04:58All of the observations that she makes about workplaces,
01:05:01what she says happens when women reach
01:05:03sort of a critical mass, you know?
01:05:06And it's not, I mean, I think at some point she was sort of,
01:05:08she did, I think, emphasize, if I remember correctly,
01:05:11that, you know, the sort of the points in time
01:05:13where these workplaces became sort of more than 50% female.
01:05:18And then she sort of pointed that as the tipping point.
01:05:21And we have a small point of difference there.
01:05:23I think that you don't need women to be at 50% in workplaces
01:05:28to see these, to get the ball rolling,
01:05:30to see these changes begin to emerge.
01:05:34Women don't need to be at those,
01:05:35the mechanisms by which women use to make these changes
01:05:39in the workplace are not democratic.
01:05:41And so they don't need a democratic majority to do it.
01:05:44I think the critical mass of women
01:05:45is actually substantially lower in their ability
01:05:48to manipulate both their male and female colleagues
01:05:50allows these types of things to happen
01:05:52long before you actually get to the 50%.
01:05:54So that's a small point of difference.
01:05:56But everything that she was saying, other than that,
01:05:59I think about what's happening in these workplaces
01:06:03and the fact that it's because of the proportion
01:06:06of women in them, I think is absolutely 100% bang on.
01:06:11And I think, and it's fantastic that she got,
01:06:13you know, that they got so much traction
01:06:15that she was able to effectively start a conversation
01:06:17on something, which I think people had been either unwilling
01:06:21or unable to really get a conversation started on.
01:06:24And I think maybe the fact that she was a woman coming out
01:06:27saying that.
01:06:28- Oh God, if a man had written that article,
01:06:31it would have been absolute death.
01:06:32I mean, look, you're a woman who is professionally accomplished.
01:06:36Is it not a good thing for women to be able
01:06:40to get into the workplace,
01:06:41to be able to have their own careers,
01:06:43be financially independent, have a life, all of that?
01:06:46- Depends what you mean by good.
01:06:49Depends what you mean by good.
01:06:50So, you know, if we sort of think about,
01:06:53so if we sort of think about human societies
01:06:55from first principles for a moment,
01:06:57in order for societies to grow and stay healthy,
01:07:00they need to reproduce, well, in order for it to exist,
01:07:02they need to reproduce it at least replacement.
01:07:05Ideally, they need to grow, right?
01:07:07Growth is great for prosperity,
01:07:10which means they need to reproduce at above replacement.
01:07:12Now, depending on the costs of reproduction,
01:07:15you know, in a society like ours,
01:07:18we know individual people are able to accrue the resources
01:07:21needed for successful reproduction quite easily.
01:07:24And in societies gone past, you know,
01:07:28reproductive success was relatively much more expensive.
01:07:31And all that excess wealth is one of the reasons
01:07:34why we have this massive manipulative reproductive suppression.
01:07:37Right, so if you're in a society where you need to maintain,
01:07:41you know, an investment in reproduction
01:07:44that will ensure that the reproductive rate
01:07:46stays at above replacement levels
01:07:47in order to continue prosperity,
01:07:50and the women in your population,
01:07:52who are the ones who basically are the limiters
01:07:55on your reproductive output,
01:07:57decide to invest a certain amount of time and effort
01:07:59and energy in non-reproductive activities,
01:08:02such that it becomes impossible for your society
01:08:05to reproduce at the levels required to maintain prosperity,
01:08:08is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:08:10It's the end of the society.
01:08:14The society simply cannot sustain itself.
01:08:16But no individual-- Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:08:18Yeah, no individual is gonna think,
01:08:20"I'm going to not do the thing that seems exciting
01:08:24and independence-enabling to me in order for me to serve."
01:08:29It feels almost like some kind of social,
01:08:32reproductive conscription that you're asking me to do
01:08:35where I don't get to do this thing
01:08:38because what the world's civilization needs me
01:08:42to be a birthing machine.
01:08:44So feminism has certainly done a really stellar job
01:08:48of making sure that that's the way people think.
01:08:50And, you know, props to it.
01:08:54But forgetting about the imposition on individual people
01:09:00for a moment, 'cause we could say exactly the same thing.
01:09:03In fact, I think we could say much more
01:09:05about what's needed about the male commitment
01:09:07to keep the civilization profiting, right?
01:09:10I mean, you think that it might be bad news for women
01:09:15that they need to have children and families
01:09:18in order for civilization to prosper.
01:09:19Well, what do men need to do
01:09:21in order for civilization to prosper?
01:09:22They need to work themselves to the bone,
01:09:24frequently die, get sent off to war.
01:09:27But if civilization is gonna prosper,
01:09:29men have got a pretty raw deal.
01:09:30So it's not as though we're talking about
01:09:35it's all fun and games for men
01:09:37and women have to carry some sort of burden.
01:09:39So if we're able to put that bit aside for a moment,
01:09:43even just answering the question of is it good or is it bad
01:09:48if a society moves in a direction
01:09:51that effectively dooms that society
01:09:53after a couple of generations.
01:09:54Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
01:09:57That's not an easy question to answer.
01:09:59If your argument is that, well,
01:10:02it's better for the individuals who are in that society
01:10:05at the moment because they'll have a more fun life.
01:10:08It's worse for the continuation of the society.
01:10:13But if we're gonna prioritize the individual,
01:10:15then maybe that's a good thing.
01:10:18- It's a very individualistic society at the moment, right?
01:10:21I mean, that's an awful lot of the well-meaning
01:10:26and bad-meaning pushback that I get online
01:10:29is saying something along the lines
01:10:31of you're trying to remove agency,
01:10:34taking women out of the boardroom
01:10:38and putting them back into the kitchen, et cetera.
01:10:41It's very much, the language is almost exclusively framed
01:10:44around independence.
01:10:45- Yeah, of course it is.
01:10:47And that's a very, it's a very effective way of framing it.
01:10:51It's probably a little bit of a different conversation,
01:10:54but the notion of individual freedom and decision-making
01:10:59around these things is also a little bit,
01:11:03is also just a little bit of a fallacy
01:11:07and a little bit, a little bit folly.
01:11:09It's kind of the, it's the libertarian fantasy, right?
01:11:13That if you just let everybody do what they want,
01:11:15then everybody will do what they want
01:11:16and everybody will be happy.
01:11:18When in fact that the vast majority of people only know
01:11:21what to do based on what everybody else does anyway.
01:11:24So if you don't actually have,
01:11:26which you've been sort of seeing now,
01:11:28when you abandon the kinds of sort of societal institutions
01:11:33that placed guardrails on what people should do
01:11:37and had to do, you just end up with people
01:11:40being really vulnerable to manipulation by others,
01:11:43because actually the majority of people
01:11:45don't sort of make their own decisions
01:11:46about what they would want to do anyway.
01:11:48They go with the crowd and they follow the norm.
01:11:52But to get back to your question about,
01:11:54is it a good thing or is it a bad thing
01:11:59to have women generally in the workplace?
01:12:01And it depends on what you mean by good or bad.
01:12:04If you mean good or bad for the society,
01:12:07well, then there's definitely, I mean,
01:12:09it's definitely bad for the society
01:12:10if the inevitable result of it is that it's terminal.
01:12:15I think we can argue that that's definitely bad
01:12:16at the level of the society.
01:12:18So then we have to move down to the level,
01:12:19so then we move down, we don't have to,
01:12:21but let's say now we move down to the level
01:12:22of the individual and say, well, is it good
01:12:24or is it bad for the individual?
01:12:27And so, well, have a look at the state of women
01:12:32at the moment, massive mental health crises,
01:12:35not generally not happy, ending up childless, partnerless.
01:12:41So we're not, you know, and we sort of spoke about this
01:12:45earlier in this discussion as well,
01:12:47but you know, the end results of these strategies for women,
01:12:50you know, I think sensible people, I think,
01:12:53would have predicted that they may not have been
01:12:55very positive, but we're now seeing, you know,
01:12:57that the happiest women are the women who are married
01:13:00and have children and the least happy women
01:13:01are the women who are not married and don't have children.
01:13:04So once again, it depends on what you mean by good.
01:13:08- What's the most, just on that,
01:13:11what's the most robust data that you've seen
01:13:12around the happiness, the comparative happiness levels
01:13:15between coupled women with kids
01:13:19and single women without kids?
01:13:20- I couldn't answer off the top of my head.
01:13:24I would have to go and look it up.
01:13:26My understanding of it is that it is pretty robust
01:13:28and it's been out there for a while.
01:13:30Like it's not just like one recent study or anything.
01:13:33It's kind of multiple studies out for long periods of time.
01:13:37It's pretty well understood that in terms of life satisfaction,
01:13:41self-reported wellbeing, self-reported mental health problems,
01:13:45like it's not just one DV either.
01:13:46It's multiple DV's are all pointing to married women
01:13:50with children being happier than single women
01:13:52who are not mothers.
01:13:54- The interesting thing that I,
01:13:57and maybe it was just because of the cohort of people
01:14:00that were commenting on this little storm in a teacup.
01:14:04What I was surprised by was,
01:14:09in the same ways you have pro-life and pro-choice,
01:14:12you should still have pro-motherhood
01:14:14and kind of anti-motherhood or pro-natal and anti-natal.
01:14:17And I was just surprised at how few people stand up
01:14:22and say something to the extent of mothers are important
01:14:26and having kids is a good thing.
01:14:28That there's kind of a soft misogyny
01:14:33to saying that the highest contribution
01:14:36that a woman can make is behaving or working like her father
01:14:40and having sex like her brother.
01:14:41Like it is a kind of soft misogyny.
01:14:44And I don't think that that's necessarily seen
01:14:47as the call coming from inside of the house all the time.
01:14:50Okay, so what are some of the more under-recognized methods
01:14:55of intersexual competition that women engage in?
01:14:59What are some of the elements
01:15:00that people typically don't think about?
01:15:02- So I think perhaps the least,
01:15:04I think probably one of the least well recognized
01:15:06because it's sort of framed as a man-hating thing.
01:15:10I would say is the whole kind of toxic masculinity
01:15:15little cottage industry that's appeared.
01:15:19So that's frequently, and not without good reason,
01:15:23is frequently framed as like an anti-male movement.
01:15:28It's the man-hating stream of feminism
01:15:31that wants to brand not just men as toxic,
01:15:34but boys as toxic.
01:15:36And I don't know what your experiences are
01:15:39and what you've seen,
01:15:40but certainly in Australia and I believe the UK,
01:15:44there's lots of talk
01:15:45and I think it's sort of actually happening now.
01:15:47Then introducing effectively like preemptive education
01:15:51into schools for young boys
01:15:53so they can teach them not to be toxic.
01:15:55And these are exactly what you would imagine.
01:15:59And there was, it made a little bit of a splash.
01:16:03Just the other week, there was a study that came out
01:16:07saying, talking about how terrible it is
01:16:10that our young boys, young boys have just got
01:16:13all of these toxic attitudes.
01:16:17It was an Australian study.
01:16:18Young boys got all these toxic attitudes.
01:16:20And of course the attitudes were things like,
01:16:24some women lie about sexual assault allegations.
01:16:28Like that's not a toxic attitude.
01:16:30That's just happens to be the truth.
01:16:34So we're sort of seeing this real branding of male toxicity.
01:16:39And I'm not denying that
01:16:41that's having terrible effects on men.
01:16:43So I'm about to suggest that the men are actually
01:16:46the collateral damage of that whole little enterprise.
01:16:51And just because it's collateral
01:16:52doesn't mean it's not serious.
01:16:53Doesn't mean I'm minimizing the impact it's having on men.
01:16:56- So explain to me how branding men and masculinity is toxic
01:17:02is female intrasexual competition.
01:17:05- Because it destroys female make choice preferences.
01:17:08It's what it's targeting.
01:17:10What the toxic brand is being attached to
01:17:14is every aspect of men that women should actually,
01:17:18that women, I won't say every single aspect of men
01:17:22because it obviously gets targeted at actually bad behavior.
01:17:26But most of the regular, all of the regular masculine
01:17:29behaviors that this toxic label gets thrown at
01:17:31are exactly the type of masculine behaviors
01:17:34that women should actually be looking for
01:17:36in a high value partner.
01:17:38And so it is spewing women's make choice preferences.
01:17:42- Can you explain how that manifests
01:17:44or how that comes into land?
01:17:46- Men who are socially dominant and socially aggressive
01:17:51make for excellent providers and for excellent protectors.
01:17:54But any kind of social dominance or aggression shown by men
01:18:00is being completely demonized and labeled toxic
01:18:05to the point where I was, I won't say who,
01:18:07but I was having a discussion the other day
01:18:10with a guy who was sort of explained
01:18:12that one of the things that really upsets him the most
01:18:15about what he sees amongst kind of his peers.
01:18:18And he was, he was American.
01:18:21What he sees amongst his peers is the lack of men
01:18:25policing each other's behavior anymore
01:18:28because from where he sits,
01:18:30his sort of impression of what's going on
01:18:33is that any kind of male aggression and male dominance
01:18:36is so, has been deemed as so inappropriate
01:18:41and such terrible behavior by women
01:18:43or just by society at large that men don't even feel
01:18:48it's appropriate to be aggressive and dominant
01:18:51with other men who will be hating badly.
01:18:52So he was sort of using the example of how,
01:18:54you know, there are men who would,
01:18:56he was sort of saying that when he was a bit younger,
01:18:59back in his day, men who didn't treat women well
01:19:03or men who showed any kind of inappropriate interest
01:19:06in children would be taken out a back shed
01:19:09and be beaten to within an inch of their life
01:19:10and then they wouldn't do it anymore
01:19:12or at least would think really hard about doing it again.
01:19:17And he said that sort of stuff simply doesn't happen now
01:19:19because people are as concerned or even more concerned
01:19:23about demonizing the behavior of taking him
01:19:25around the back of the shed and beating him
01:19:27to the inch of his life than they are about demonizing
01:19:30the behavior that needed to be policed in the first place.
01:19:34And so what we're seeing is, you know, society, feminism,
01:19:38whatever you wanna call it,
01:19:39having reshaped the positive aspects of male dominance
01:19:44and male strength and, you know,
01:19:46even what they've decided to label benevolent sexism
01:19:50was just because they've called it benevolent,
01:19:52they don't see it as good,
01:19:54which is basically all of the etiquette
01:19:56around gender role interactions that happen to favor women.
01:20:00They still decided that sexism that is inherently bad
01:20:04for women, but even the benevolent sexism,
01:20:06all of that stuff has been demonized
01:20:09and being sort of, you know, labeled sort of, you know,
01:20:13no longer socially acceptable.
01:20:15And so men can no longer behave in the kinds of ways
01:20:18that they used to behave in order to be able
01:20:21to demonstrate their quality as a prospective mate to women.
01:20:25And so men are responding by actually engaging
01:20:28in sort of what, you know, what you might call beta behavior,
01:20:30just to demonstrate that they're not a strong masculine man
01:20:34and women are being taught to reject men, you know,
01:20:38they're taught to recognize signs of masculinity
01:20:41and mate quality as red flags to be avoided.
01:20:45And I think that's--
01:20:46- If women are influencing men to be more docile
01:20:49and women are being taught to get into relationships
01:20:53with men who are more docile and less aggressive,
01:20:56how is this not just a changing of the mating landscape
01:20:59and the preferences moving over time?
01:21:01How does this suppress anything?
01:21:03It seems to be a set of instructions being given out
01:21:06and set of preferences being adjusted.
01:21:08- Because I don't think that we're,
01:21:11'cause we're not necessarily seeing the,
01:21:13it's not as though the women who would have paired up
01:21:16with the higher quality men who were able to, you know,
01:21:19able to signal all of those signals of strength and dominance
01:21:24'cause they're costly signals, right?
01:21:25They're real signals.
01:21:27The signals of effectively harmlessness
01:21:30don't differentiate between mate quality
01:21:33because you don't actually have to have anything
01:21:35or do anything or be anything.
01:21:38In order to be physically dominant and socially dominant
01:21:41and be able to be aggressive, you have to be big,
01:21:44you have to be strong, you have to have good leadership,
01:21:46you have to be competent.
01:21:47You don't need anything to not be competent,
01:21:50to not be strong, to not have good leadership
01:21:52and to not have social dominance.
01:21:54And so it's not that it's sort of one set
01:21:57of reliable costly signals now just having
01:22:00to be signaled a different way.
01:22:01It's obliterating all of the male ways
01:22:04and sort of de-socializing all of the male ways
01:22:07of advertising their own mate quality.
01:22:08And it's leaving men with ways of advertising
01:22:11their own mate quality that are not reliable indicators
01:22:14of mate quality, which makes it very difficult
01:22:16for women to actually choose quality mates.
01:22:18And any reliable indicators of mate quality
01:22:21that do manage to bleed through
01:22:24are being systematically de-preferenced by women
01:22:27rather than being preferenced.
01:22:29- Okay, so it's, let me see if I've got this right.
01:22:34You're suggesting that women are saying these sorts of traits,
01:22:39typically masculine, dominant, prestige,
01:22:42go-getter traits are things that men shouldn't engage in
01:22:46and that women shouldn't like.
01:22:48But the problem is that women aren't as capable
01:22:51at getting themselves to not like those things
01:22:54or more specifically to like the reverse of those things.
01:22:57- That's right, and so women might make these explicit
01:23:00sort of make choice decisions where they might be encouraged
01:23:04by their friends or whatever to sort of go out with this guy
01:23:07even though they're not especially attracted to him
01:23:09or to not go out with that guy even though they might
01:23:12be attracted to him.
01:23:14And therefore they end up in relationships
01:23:16where the relationships are either not compatible,
01:23:20they don't work very well, they don't last very long
01:23:23and they don't end up becoming long-term stable relationships
01:23:26in which you can raise families.
01:23:29Because the other thing that sort of happens if women make,
01:23:32I think this happens to a reasonable extent to men as well,
01:23:35but more so with women.
01:23:37Women are by far the sex that terminates relationships
01:23:42more commonly.
01:23:44If women pair up with someone who they then later decide
01:23:47is not sort of of their mate quality,
01:23:49the relationship doesn't work and they're not satisfied
01:23:52and they do attempt to trade up,
01:23:55at least in those early stages before it's complicated
01:23:58by having children and things like that.
01:24:00And so if you can convince women to perpetually date men
01:24:05that her brain is gonna tell her no, this is not the person
01:24:08that you should be reproducing with,
01:24:09then she's gonna find it very difficult to end up
01:24:12actually having a nice, profitable,
01:24:16stable long-term relationship that will work.
01:24:20- I think what would be interesting would be to look at
01:24:23the women who are proposing, whatever you wanna call them,
01:24:26cinnamon roll husband, golden retriever husband approach.
01:24:30- Look at their husbands?
01:24:33- Look at the husbands, yeah, exactly.
01:24:35Like, who is it that you're marrying?
01:24:37Who is it that the women are ultimately getting with?
01:24:39And part of this you could see as,
01:24:41well, it's people don't know what they want
01:24:44and they're expecting, I thought I was right in the past.
01:24:46I thought that the casual sex thing,
01:24:48the sleep with them and not catch feels thing,
01:24:49I thought that that was right then, but it's not right now.
01:24:52I think when you do see that, it does show
01:24:54some women may reach like realization escape velocity
01:25:00to get out of that mindset and into the one
01:25:03that they end up in, but other women may just cycle through
01:25:06a series of medium-term relationships with guys
01:25:10who are not a type that they want to keep going
01:25:14because they've seen this meme and they've committed to it
01:25:16and they think that that's the way.
01:25:18So yeah, I can see how, it's difficult, right?
01:25:20Because I mean, one of the biggest insights that I learned
01:25:25when thinking about Me Too was that blanket advice
01:25:28doesn't land on people evenly.
01:25:29So when you say to guys, don't be pushy,
01:25:33the guys who really could have done with a little bit
01:25:36more gumption and less approach anxiety
01:25:39will take that to heart while the guys
01:25:42that were blowing through boundaries all along
01:25:45don't think that it's meant for them in any case.
01:25:47- That's right, exactly.
01:25:48If you're gonna blow through boundaries,
01:25:50then putting up an extra boundary
01:25:51is not gonna change your behavior.
01:25:53If you're the type of person
01:25:54who doesn't blow through boundaries,
01:25:55well, as you say, putting up a boundary
01:25:57just pushes you even further back.
01:25:59- Yeah, going back to the benevolent sexism thing.
01:26:03Did you see, there was a video,
01:26:05I think it might've been a CCTV video of a girl in Vietnam.
01:26:09She was traveling and she got her bag
01:26:13tried to be taken off her by a guy with a knife.
01:26:15It looked like there were two travelers, a man and a woman,
01:26:17young, maybe 20, something like that.
01:26:20This video was maybe a month ago, month and a half ago.
01:26:23- And he hides?
01:26:24- Yes, he hides behind the pillar.
01:26:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:26:28So I thought that was really fascinating,
01:26:30looking at the response from that in particular,
01:26:34because so many of the responses were,
01:26:37this guy's not worth your time of day, men are trash,
01:26:41girl, just leave him.
01:26:42This is what's either the current generation of men.
01:26:45And trying to square that circle with dominance in men,
01:26:54benevolent sexism, sort of a patriarchal,
01:26:59classically masculine protectionist belief
01:27:02about women being delicate and special
01:27:06and needing men to use their increased robustness
01:27:09and resilience to be able to wall them off from the world.
01:27:12In one headline, it says that that's oppressive.
01:27:17And in another headline, it says that it's a marker
01:27:22of modern men not being up to standards.
01:27:26Well, it feels like talking out of both sides of your mouth.
01:27:29- It is.
01:27:30And this is why men can't win, right?
01:27:31This is why I think many men are almost sort of self,
01:27:36just decided to just self-remove
01:27:40from the mating market entirely,
01:27:42because they've seen the writing on the wall
01:27:45and they understand it.
01:27:46In some cases, perhaps misunderstand
01:27:49and then perhaps overestimating the risk.
01:27:50But I don't know.
01:27:52I think the risks are real.
01:27:54And it's hard to know what men should put on those.
01:27:58But it's really difficult
01:28:00because there's very little that men can do
01:28:02that they're not going to be criticized for, right?
01:28:07If you go on an approach, a woman,
01:28:09in some cases, you're sort of automatically
01:28:14being demanding and sexist and presumptuous.
01:28:17Like, I'm not sure if you remember,
01:28:18I remember because they went up around my university,
01:28:21that little fad where they started putting up pictures
01:28:24of various women's faces with statements underneath them,
01:28:27supposedly being things that men needed to hear from women.
01:28:31And one of them was is,
01:28:32"I don't owe you polite conversation."
01:28:34So the very idea that a man expecting
01:28:38that if he goes and talks to a woman,
01:28:39she might at least be polite,
01:28:40even that was a sexist presumption, right?
01:28:43There is very little that men can actually do
01:28:45that is not going to lead to them being potentially criticized
01:28:49and sometimes quite seriously by one or other branch
01:28:53of the talking heads,
01:28:56the progressive collective progressive talking heads
01:28:59from various feminist angles.
01:29:01And so it has become incredibly difficult for men.
01:29:03And then they do have genuine fears about,
01:29:07I think, I don't want to sort of necessarily
01:29:09sort of speak on behalf of men
01:29:10'cause I suspect I don't really know.
01:29:12- Feel free to.
01:29:13- Yeah, I suspect I don't know-
01:29:15- Speaking for the male community.
01:29:17- Speaking for the male community.
01:29:18- Sure, let me just go right off.
01:29:21No, I think that there is a very real fear
01:29:23of false accusations of sexual harassment or sexual assault.
01:29:27And I think that that is probably in a really confusing way
01:29:30for a lot of young men.
01:29:31It's probably blended with sort of couple
01:29:35with genuine fears of maybe actually accidentally
01:29:38committing a sexual offense or sexual assault.
01:29:40- Let me give you-
01:29:41- And it's really difficult to tell those two things apart,
01:29:43I think, especially for a lot of young, inexperienced men.
01:29:46And so they're scared of the false accusation,
01:29:49but they're also scared of the accidental commission
01:29:52of an offense, which is a crazy,
01:29:54a crazy position for young men to be in.
01:29:57- Well, on that, is it a crazy position for men to be in?
01:30:01There are certainly times where guys can be fumbling around
01:30:06and coercive, emotionally manipulative
01:30:11in a way that doesn't cross anything close
01:30:14to a legal boundary or even something that's ethical,
01:30:18but there's a bit of gamesmanship.
01:30:20She said no, so he took his arm out from underneath
01:30:23and stopped cuddling her and turned over
01:30:25on the other side of the bed and said,
01:30:26"Well, if we're not gonna do it, I'm gonna go to sleep."
01:30:28Like, is that?
01:30:29Like, what's that?
01:30:30Because that's an effective strategy of kind of the retreating,
01:30:35the removal of emotional comfort and physical touch
01:30:42because you didn't wanna do that thing,
01:30:44but is that, you know, we just create this entire spectrum.
01:30:48I think, as a perfect example,
01:30:50this was probably five years ago or six years ago now,
01:30:52I was out in London with a friend who was 20, 21,
01:30:56and there was a group of girls up by the bar,
01:30:59and I said, "We should go and talk to them.
01:31:00"I'm bored of you.
01:31:01"We should go and talk to the girls by the bar."
01:31:03And he looked at me like had suggested
01:31:05that we go and kill them, put them in a bag,
01:31:06and bury them in a pond.
01:31:08He was like, "You're kidding."
01:31:10I'm like, "No, they look nice.
01:31:15"There's three of them.
01:31:16"There's two of us.
01:31:17"I'm sure we can take them.
01:31:17"Like, we should go and talk to them."
01:31:21And he was like, "I have been told, under no circumstances,
01:31:25"to ever approach a woman in public."
01:31:27And that was, it blew my mind 'cause I'm 37,
01:31:33and when I was at university, we didn't even have iPhones.
01:31:37So that was a very different sort of-
01:31:39- Go and talk to people.
01:31:40- Mating environment.
01:31:41It's the only way that you could do it.
01:31:43Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:31:44So look, I get it on the challenges of guys
01:31:49sort of balancing this new world
01:31:55that they're entering into
01:31:56and the fact that they decide to check out
01:31:58as opposed to potentially do something.
01:32:00I think it's a great point to say
01:32:01that guys not wanting to accidentally do something
01:32:05that they would later regret,
01:32:07the hypersensitivity to the,
01:32:10and less forgiveness to the sort of innate,
01:32:16bumbly, white, chaotic world of young people mating.
01:32:21If you're 20 and you're trying to work out,
01:32:25like you've both had a drink,
01:32:26we've met before, like it's all,
01:32:31the devil really is in the details with these things.
01:32:34- Of course it is.
01:32:35As you try and navigate through all of this,
01:32:37if you basically make the fear setting higher,
01:32:42guys, as my friend, I've been told under no circumstances
01:32:48ever go up to a woman in public.
01:32:51Like that's a real thing.
01:32:53So yeah, it does make it difficult.
01:32:56It makes it a difficult environment for men to navigate.
01:32:59Then unfortunately, I don't think that women's preferences
01:33:05have updated themselves to be the ones
01:33:09that want to come up and talk to guys.
01:33:11- No, of course not.
01:33:12Of course not.
01:33:13- 86% of women say that they want a man
01:33:15to make the first move.
01:33:17- Yeah, yeah.
01:33:17And this is one of the reasons why I'm really convinced
01:33:22that this attack on male masculinity dominance,
01:33:27whatever you want to call it,
01:33:28is this attack on being a man,
01:33:30it's been so effective in disrupting
01:33:34that human courtship behavior.
01:33:37It's been really, really effective.
01:33:39Women, for the most part, are not going to initiate
01:33:42these relationships or these interactions, I should say.
01:33:46And so if you can stop men from initiating them,
01:33:49then that goes a long way towards stopping them from,
01:33:52a long way towards stopping them from happening.
01:33:54- Does that not mean, just to interject that,
01:33:56does that not mean that you, as the proponent of this idea,
01:34:00would be on the receiving end of it too?
01:34:02That doesn't seem like a particularly good thing.
01:34:04Like you're also curtailing the men
01:34:06that would come up and approach you.
01:34:08- Yeah, so this is a, so no, that's a really good question.
01:34:11And it's good 'cause it gives me a chance
01:34:13to sort of explain an important principle
01:34:16that kind of wraps around all of this.
01:34:19So what's happening with all of these things,
01:34:22that the devaluation of motherhood,
01:34:24the devaluation of marriage, the demonization of men
01:34:28that would actually make excellent husbands and fathers,
01:34:31the valorization of careers for women
01:34:36and all the rest of it.
01:34:38One thing that, the end result of all of these
01:34:42sort of individual things that are happening
01:34:45is that they're feeding into creating an environment
01:34:47that is really hostile to reproductive success.
01:34:50So we just have an environment in which the rules
01:34:53that we've sort of, the social etiquettes and the rules
01:34:56that we've sort of developed and built over time
01:34:58and over generations have all of a sudden
01:35:00just been thrown out.
01:35:01So now that the guardrails have gone
01:35:03and those, you know, those rules of etiquette,
01:35:04they were really important because people understood
01:35:07what you were and weren't allowed to do.
01:35:09And people understood that you could do this
01:35:11and you couldn't do that.
01:35:12And we sort of had, you know, a way that the two people
01:35:15who didn't really know each other could navigate
01:35:17a potentially romantic interaction with some certainty
01:35:21and some guidance and that's been chucked out the window.
01:35:23So what an environment now, social environment
01:35:26that is incredibly hostile to reproduction.
01:35:28And yes, that impacts everybody negatively,
01:35:32but all of these things will always impact
01:35:35those who generally have lower reproductive potential more.
01:35:40So if you are from a reproductive perspective and elite,
01:35:44if you are, let's just say as a woman,
01:35:46if you are highly attractive, you can do a crazy thing
01:35:50like decide to get a little pixie crew car,
01:35:53which for most women would massively decrease
01:35:55their attractiveness.
01:35:56You can probably do that and start setting that
01:35:59as a fashion trend.
01:36:00And yeah, it's gonna decrease your attractiveness
01:36:01a little bit, but you're still gonna be pretty hot.
01:36:04It's gonna be much worse for all the less attractive women
01:36:06who are now copying this trendy pixie car.
01:36:09And that same principle applies across the board
01:36:11to all of these things.
01:36:12So yeah, it hurts everybody, but the people who can,
01:36:17the people who have the most reproductive potential
01:36:20because they have the highest mate quality
01:36:23and they're the most fertile and they already have,
01:36:26you know, they're already in a position in society
01:36:28which gives them social access to the best men.
01:36:30You know, those women are hurt the least.
01:36:33And so they are the ones who are pushing and setting
01:36:37all of these trends.
01:36:38So if you imagine that, like, if you sort of think
01:36:40we've got this kind of linear scale
01:36:41and the odds of reproductive success are, you know,
01:36:44those that have the highest odds, the highest likelihood
01:36:47of the most reproductive success are at the top.
01:36:49And you can line everyone up right down to those people
01:36:51that have really low prospect of reproductive success.
01:36:54The more hostile you make the environment,
01:36:57the higher you lift the bar along that linear scale
01:37:01to a point where people are not having
01:37:03any reproductive success,
01:37:04which is exactly what we're seeing, right?
01:37:06More and more people are just not able to navigate their life
01:37:10to lead to reproductive success
01:37:12in this really anti-natal environment
01:37:14that they find themselves in.
01:37:16Whether it's because they devalued finding a mate
01:37:18when they were at their peak mate quality
01:37:20and it should have been the easiest.
01:37:21Whether it's because they delayed having children
01:37:23when they were at their peak fertility
01:37:25and that would have been the easiest.
01:37:26Whether it's because they made bad mate choice decisions,
01:37:28bad life choices, ended up investing a lot in their career,
01:37:32thinking that they would somehow magically find a partner
01:37:35and be able to have a family between the ages of, you know,
01:37:3838 and 39 and then that didn't happen.
01:37:40You know, we have a social environment
01:37:43that is very hostile to reproduction
01:37:45and therefore the only people in there
01:37:47who are able to reproduce are the ones
01:37:49that have the most reproductive capacity to begin with
01:37:52by virtue of a whole bunch of factors that contribute to that.
01:37:55So yes, it hurts everybody,
01:37:57but the ones who benefit are the relatively small number
01:38:01of those who survive it and successfully reproduce
01:38:04and they benefit because large numbers of their competitors
01:38:07simply can't reproduce in such a hostile environment.
01:38:09- So that's your line from the very beginning
01:38:12saying that running the race
01:38:13results in everybody moving more slowly.
01:38:16- Yes, exactly.
01:38:18The female race slows everybody down, but someone still wins.
01:38:22And it doesn't matter that the whole reproductive output
01:38:25has dropped for the fact that they still continue to win
01:38:29this individually based race.
01:38:31- The genes aren't smart enough to realize
01:38:34that if there is no future civilization,
01:38:37your progeny have a bad future.
01:38:41We've evolved under circumstances
01:38:46where that hasn't been an issue.
01:38:47Therefore, if you relatively have more kids
01:38:51than the next woman, that's good for you.
01:38:53When you start to scale this across an entire civilization,
01:38:57what ends up happening is it's good for you,
01:39:00but over time this is gonna become very bad for everybody,
01:39:03including you.
01:39:04- Yep.
01:39:06Yes, you're correct, but with one caveat though.
01:39:09- I always get something wrong, it's okay.
01:39:11- No, no, no, you didn't get anything wrong.
01:39:12You're correct so far, but except that here's the kicker.
01:39:17So you would be correct
01:39:20if the end point of this was actually
01:39:22that it's just bad for everybody.
01:39:24Because you're right, evolution is not,
01:39:26it's not teleological and it cannot see the consequences.
01:39:29If an individual population finds itself in a local maxima,
01:39:34some sort of local adaptive thing,
01:39:35it will be selected for to stay there
01:39:37even if the inevitable outcome of that trait
01:39:41or that behavior is that the entire species goes extinct.
01:39:44Evolution has no mechanism for protecting against that.
01:39:46So you would be right if the end point of this manipulative
01:39:50reproductive suppression was in fact,
01:39:53just the end of all of these lineages, but it's not.
01:39:56And this is where it gets perhaps even,
01:39:59well, I think it gets even more interesting.
01:40:01So this is what I, so what happens at the end of,
01:40:05when civilizations crash and fall,
01:40:08you don't actually see an end to those genetic lineages.
01:40:12What you see is those genetic lineages,
01:40:14some of them, a small number of them,
01:40:15those who are there at the end,
01:40:18actually becoming the founder population
01:40:21or a part of the founder population of what rises.
01:40:24So you can sort of think of it as like,
01:40:26almost like this really kind of dire game of musical chairs.
01:40:30Now, if you can sense that the musical chairs play
01:40:33and each round, you know,
01:40:34someone doesn't get a chair and that lineage drops out,
01:40:36you know, each round somebody doesn't reproduce
01:40:39and a lineage drops out.
01:40:41If you can sense that the end is near,
01:40:44then you actually want the end to come
01:40:47before you end up being the one
01:40:49that doesn't find a chair in one of the rounds.
01:40:52So once female behavior reaches this really intense,
01:40:55reproductive suppression stage,
01:40:57and we start seeing all of the social science
01:40:59that this is happening,
01:41:00like a massive drop in the decline of sex,
01:41:03sorry, a massive drop in the price of sex,
01:41:06increased casual sex, vulgarity, decreasing marriage,
01:41:10decreasing birth rates,
01:41:11and a whole bunch of other social factors
01:41:13that all point to this being the stage of society
01:41:16where we're at.
01:41:17They all act as cues to sort of intensify this behavior
01:41:21as everybody vies for a chair at the end.
01:41:25Everybody wants to be one of the lineages left standing
01:41:27because what's the genetic prize
01:41:30if you are one of the lineages left standing
01:41:32is that you get to be part, if you're a woman,
01:41:36you will get to be because when you get invaded,
01:41:39it's the women who survive and reproduce,
01:41:41it's not the men, you get to be part
01:41:45of the founder population of a new society
01:41:49that will go through a large expansion phase.
01:41:52So you may have started off, your lineages may have say,
01:41:55like, you know, lineages are not this separate,
01:41:57but for sake of argument, your lineage may be, you know,
01:42:00one of 10,000 in the population at the start of this game.
01:42:04But if you're, you know, one of just 50 lineages
01:42:08that are left and you become that
01:42:10as part of the founder population,
01:42:12then your representation of the population
01:42:14went from one in 10,000 to one in 50.
01:42:17And this is why it's the winners that just become,
01:42:20they, you know, the winners of this game
01:42:21become the founder population.
01:42:23And so it is in the interests of these winners
01:42:26to maintain genetic capacity for there to be losers
01:42:31so that they can win in the end, if that makes sense.
01:42:35It's a little bit like a kin selection,
01:42:37almost like a kin selection strategy.
01:42:39- Yeah, as the competition gets more fierce,
01:42:41you behave more fiercely
01:42:43because the gains relative are going to be greater
01:42:46because there are fewer people to compete with.
01:42:48So in some ways it's-
01:42:50- And you want the game to end too.
01:42:52You know, once it gets down to a relatively small birth rate,
01:42:56you want the game to end, you want the society to collapse
01:42:59and the next society to come in and start growing.
01:43:01You don't want your lineages to fall out
01:43:03two or three rounds from now
01:43:04'cause the game went on for two or three rounds longer.
01:43:06You begin to want it to end.
01:43:08And that's what we're seeing.
01:43:10I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit off topic,
01:43:12but jumping back to Helen Andrews' great feminization,
01:43:16I think that greater representation of women
01:43:19in society's institution,
01:43:21as opposed to pouring their efforts
01:43:22into society's reproduction is an inevitable result
01:43:26of this female inter-sectoral competition
01:43:28and manipulative reproductive suppression.
01:43:30And then an inevitable result of that
01:43:33is the gutting and the decline
01:43:35and the eventual collapse of these institutions.
01:43:39And so these things follow on necessarily from each other.
01:43:42And this is where I think,
01:43:44this is the bit that I think Helen doesn't get quite right.
01:43:47She attributes, as do many other people,
01:43:49I'm not sort of trying to single her out here,
01:43:50but she sort of attributes female behavior in the workplace
01:43:53to these misplaced motherhood motives.
01:43:56And I've got a few kind of theoretical problems with that.
01:43:59I don't think it, to me,
01:44:00I don't think it looks like motherhood behavior
01:44:02and I don't think that that argument
01:44:03sort of works especially well
01:44:04once you sort of scratch the surface of it.
01:44:06But I think an argument that does work very well
01:44:08is if we think that what women are actually selected for
01:44:11to do in these institutions
01:44:13is to actually completely flatten the meritocracy
01:44:16and to deprioritize productivity,
01:44:19because that's actually what explains
01:44:22female behavior in these institutions.
01:44:25And that I think is part of women realizing
01:44:27that the game of musical chairs is nearly at the end
01:44:30and they want to hasten the end
01:44:31before they end up finding themselves in a losing route.
01:44:34That's what I think is happening
01:44:35in the great feminization of the institutions.
01:44:37It is actually the systematic dismantling
01:44:40of those institutions.
01:44:41- Right, so Helen's perspective is that this is
01:44:45a quite pro-social or at least pro-child maternal instinct
01:44:51that's being applied to the workplace erroneously.
01:44:56Your perspective is that it's much less pro-social than that.
01:45:00It's actually highly competitive.
01:45:02It's inter-sexual competition,
01:45:05and this is happening almost as designed
01:45:08as opposed to a misfiring.
01:45:10- Exactly right.
01:45:11So a big central sort of part of what I'm proposing
01:45:15is that what we're seeing now across the board
01:45:18is not a misfire.
01:45:20It's not something going wrong.
01:45:23This is actually how human societies play out.
01:45:26This is actually what happens again and again and again.
01:45:29And so it can't be a misfire again and again and again.
01:45:33This is how the system operates.
01:45:34And so what I've tried to do is come up with an explanation
01:45:38that actually explains why it operates in this way
01:45:42and who actually would win such a genetic race
01:45:45in such a way that this kind of a system
01:45:47could then perpetuate cycle after cycle.
01:45:51- I suppose one perspective is
01:45:58the environmental mismatch is so great
01:46:03that a effective strategy is being applied erroneously.
01:46:09And yours is that the mismatch is still great,
01:46:14but the system is sufficiently adaptive and able to adjust
01:46:19that it's still performing kind of as intended
01:46:24even under novel circumstances.
01:46:26- Exactly, and look, I will sort of say
01:46:30that I am much less amenable I think
01:46:34than perhaps a lot of people
01:46:35to the basic idea of this evolutionary mismatch.
01:46:40This idea, the idea that we have changed the world so much
01:46:45that it now somehow is just,
01:46:47it is somehow no longer adapted to us or us to it.
01:46:49And so we just see all of this,
01:46:52we just see all these things happening
01:46:53that they can't really be sensibly accounted for
01:46:55because we've just got a human system
01:46:59operating in an environment where it just doesn't work.
01:47:03It just so weird things,
01:47:05unselected form, maladaptive things just happen.
01:47:07I'm not especially amenable to that basic principle
01:47:12because everything about the world that we live in
01:47:16can be sort of seen and considered
01:47:20as the human extended phenotype.
01:47:22The world did not just grow up spontaneously around us
01:47:27completely independent of our own biology
01:47:29and psychology and behavior.
01:47:30This is the world that we created.
01:47:33And so, yes, it has changed quite quickly,
01:47:37but it's changed in ways that our own evolved psychology
01:47:41and evolved biology decided to change it
01:47:44and responded to certain things.
01:47:47And so I'm much less,
01:47:50I think the types of things that took off
01:47:52that became popular, that became part of how we live
01:47:56versus those things that didn't itself
01:47:58was very strongly influenced
01:47:59by our evolved biology and psychology.
01:48:01So I'm just much less amenable to this idea
01:48:05that we can safely assume
01:48:06that there's just this massive mismatch
01:48:08and that allows us to write off
01:48:10a whole bunch of human behavior is just,
01:48:12oh, that's just because we've got smartphones now
01:48:13and that's just because we've got the internet
01:48:15and that's just because we've got the pill
01:48:16and that's just because, just because, just because.
01:48:19I don't, you know, I've never really seen
01:48:21that as a very profitable way.
01:48:23And I think one of the main problems
01:48:24with that type of thinking
01:48:26is it just makes it too easy to write off anything
01:48:29that you can't sort of explain
01:48:31as part of a adaptive functioning complex system
01:48:35as, oh yeah, but that's just because the world is weird.
01:48:38You know, I much prefer an argument
01:48:40where you at least try to not give anything that you see
01:48:45a free pass to not require an explanation
01:48:47for what's going on there.
01:48:48You've got to at least try to see.
01:48:50And I think if you do try to apply explanations,
01:48:52you actually find a lot of coherence
01:48:55in what has previously been dismissed as,
01:48:57oh, you know, this is just this new evolutionary thing
01:49:01we've got and so now people behave like this,
01:49:03but you know, there's no function to that behavior.
01:49:05There's no other explanation behind it.
01:49:07It's just 'cause the world is different now.
01:49:09I'm not really amenable to that approach at all.
01:49:12So I don't really have a lot of sympathy.
01:49:14I think they're kind of, you know,
01:49:17people who are trying to understand behavior
01:49:18dealing themselves get out of jail free cards, yeah.
01:49:23- Well, we'll see how much sympathy the internet has
01:49:26for the things that we've talked about today.
01:49:28If my recent track record is anything to go by,
01:49:30I already don't have a fucking career.
01:49:32Dr. Dani Solakowski, ladies and gentlemen.
01:49:35Dani, you're fascinating.
01:49:37I really appreciate you explaining this stuff.
01:49:39It's, there's a lot of conflicting narratives at the moment
01:49:43and someone who's spent so much time thinking about this
01:49:45is really cool to get some time to dig into.
01:49:49Where should people go
01:49:50to check out all of the stuff that you do?
01:49:52- Follow me on Twitter.
01:49:54So Dr. Dani S and anything else I do
01:49:57always gets put up there.
01:49:59So if you just go there and you just follow me,
01:50:01then you get to see everything that there is to see.
01:50:03- Heck yeah.
01:50:04Dani, I appreciate you.
01:50:05Thank you.
01:50:06- Brilliant, thanks very much.
01:50:07- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:50:10Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:50:12by the internet just yet.
01:50:14Here's another one that you should watch.
01:50:17Go on.