If humans go to Mars, what happens to evolution? - Scott Solomon

English
CChris Williamson
Space/AstronomyBooks & LiteraturePregnancyMental HealthEnvironment

Transcript

00:00:00- What's the NASA Chapier experiment?
00:00:03It's just hit the 100 day mark.
00:00:06- Yeah, it has, yeah.
00:00:07So this is basically a, it's a simulation.
00:00:11It's a way of trying to understand
00:00:13what life would actually be like for people living on Mars.
00:00:17And the way that they're doing this is by,
00:00:19they've created a mock-up of a space settlement
00:00:24and they've built it in Johnson Space Center in Houston.
00:00:29So just down the street from me here, really.
00:00:32And it's built to be kind of like what they think
00:00:36it would actually be like on Mars, right?
00:00:39So they actually 3D printed it,
00:00:41which is one of the technologies that has been suggested
00:00:44for how we might build structures on Mars.
00:00:48And then a group of, I believe it's four,
00:00:51a crew of four people have entered it
00:00:54and they are living inside it.
00:00:57As you said, for a hundred days so far,
00:00:59but the plan is for it to last a full year.
00:01:02So this is kind of like a thing that people do
00:01:06when they're trying to understand what different aspects
00:01:10of space settlement might actually be like
00:01:12is they create what are called analogs.
00:01:14Basically a model that sort of replicates some aspect
00:01:19of a space environment, a space settlement in this case.
00:01:23And then they put people inside and try to sort of
00:01:27understand what happens.
00:01:29So this is the second one that they've done.
00:01:31They did a full year already.
00:01:34And this is the second full year study of people inside
00:01:39this kind of mock-up of a Mars habitat.
00:01:44- How much do you think they're testing physiological change
00:01:49versus psychological change?
00:01:51- Yeah, I think a lot of what these analog studies
00:01:56try to get at and is true of this study as well
00:02:00is the psychology.
00:02:01Because of course they can't replicate a lot of
00:02:03the physical conditions of being on Mars.
00:02:07There's one third the Earth's gravity, right?
00:02:09They're not simulating that.
00:02:12There's probably gonna be a lot higher radiation exposure
00:02:15in a Mars habitat and they're not simulating that.
00:02:18(coughs)
00:02:20Excuse me.
00:02:21So some of the things that they can simulate
00:02:23are of course being in a confined space,
00:02:26being in a area where you're limited
00:02:31to what you brought with you.
00:02:33They're not able to kind of come and go
00:02:36and they're not able to bring new materials
00:02:38and supplies in or out.
00:02:41And another big part of it is sort of the interaction
00:02:46between the crew members.
00:02:47So what is it like to be more or less stuck
00:02:50with just the other three folks that you brought with you
00:02:54for an extended time period?
00:02:56- It's the most boring episode of "Love Island" ever filmed
00:02:58but it lasts for an entire 12 months.
00:03:01- I really think they could make some reality TV shows
00:03:04out of these analogs because there's quite a few
00:03:07of these types of things that are in different places.
00:03:09I went and visited one of them actually
00:03:12when I was researching my first book
00:03:14which just touched on the idea of how we might change
00:03:18in space and that was out in Utah.
00:03:21It's called the Mars Desert Research Station
00:03:24and a remote facility in a place in the desert
00:03:27that really kind of looks like Mars.
00:03:30And so I went out there and visited a crew
00:03:32that had just begun a simulation
00:03:34and it was fascinating to see kind of what they're doing
00:03:37and the ways that they try to kind of make it feel realistic
00:03:40and the kind of things that they try to learn.
00:03:42And there's a whole bunch of these.
00:03:44- How much is space exploration an evolutionary event
00:03:47versus a technological one?
00:03:50- Well, that's really the thing that I'm most interested in.
00:03:54So my background, I'm an evolutionary biologist, right?
00:03:56And so the thing that got me most interested in this topic
00:04:00of like how will people be affected by being in space
00:04:05is the question of would making a long-term settlement
00:04:10on Mars or anywhere else lead to evolutionary change?
00:04:15From my perspective, I think it's inevitable.
00:04:18I think basically if you are creating a situation
00:04:22where people are not just going and coming back
00:04:25but they're going to live there.
00:04:27In other words, they're moving there,
00:04:29that's where their lives are.
00:04:30And most importantly, they're having families there.
00:04:32They're raising children there.
00:04:34Once you start talking about a multiple generation,
00:04:38generational presence on another world,
00:04:42we should expect evolutionary change.
00:04:45That's how evolution works, right?
00:04:47- Well, migration in the past has caused divergence, right?
00:04:52What was that Homo floresiensis?
00:04:57- Floresiensis, yeah, yeah.
00:04:58- Floresiensis, the pygmy people.
00:05:02So you're an evolutionary biologist.
00:05:04I've been telling this story on the show for ages.
00:05:06Can you tell me if this is true or not?
00:05:07So I'd heard they were Indonesia, right?
00:05:11- Yeah, that's right.
00:05:12We've come to Flores, which is today part of Indonesia.
00:05:15- So Indonesia, if anyone looks at it on a map,
00:05:17it's kind of like someone's thrown crumbs over a table.
00:05:20It's very broken up.
00:05:21And what it seemed like was a particular hominid,
00:05:25Homo previous species got split off.
00:05:27And the island that they were on was very, very restricted
00:05:30in terms of the calories that they could consume,
00:05:34in terms of the resources.
00:05:35So that meant that over time,
00:05:37the smallest humans were the ones that were selected
00:05:39to survive because they needed the fewest calories.
00:05:42Then one of the, the story that I've always told
00:05:45is this restriction in resources
00:05:48wasn't just affecting the humans,
00:05:50but it was affecting all of the other species as well.
00:05:52So there are sites of tiny three feet, four feet high humans
00:05:57carrying tiny spears, chasing tiny elephants or mammoths.
00:06:04So all of the creatures had been diminutized
00:06:09down to this tiny little level
00:06:11because they were all on this little island.
00:06:12Is that bullshit or am I right?
00:06:14- Well, that is one of the ways that we think about it.
00:06:17And you've got a lot of the story correct there.
00:06:19So you're absolutely right that basically
00:06:21what people have found are the skeletal remains
00:06:24inside of a cave on this island of Flores
00:06:27of these very short statured, small bodied hominids.
00:06:32The structure of their bones shows us
00:06:35that they were different from any other species
00:06:37that we know about anywhere else in the world
00:06:39that's ever been found.
00:06:40They've only ever been found from this one island.
00:06:42So based on that,
00:06:43we assume they were restricted to the island.
00:06:45Somebody could later find them somewhere else
00:06:48and that would change the story.
00:06:48But for now, you're absolutely right
00:06:50that our understanding is they only lived on this island.
00:06:53And because they're such short bodied hominids,
00:06:58it's very different from pretty much any other species.
00:07:02I'll tell you the actual twist to that in just a moment.
00:07:05But yeah, we think what may have happened
00:07:08is that their ancestors made it there somehow.
00:07:11They were stranded on this island
00:07:13and basically they evolved to be shorter.
00:07:16And as you pointed out,
00:07:17they're not the only species that evolved to be smaller.
00:07:20We actually know that this is a common phenomenon
00:07:24that happens to species that are isolated on islands
00:07:28is that they change size.
00:07:30So there's all over the world,
00:07:32there's all of these examples of these miniature species
00:07:36that live on islands.
00:07:37And elephants are actually a good example.
00:07:39There's small bodied fossil mammoths
00:07:42and other elephant relatives on islands
00:07:44like in the Mediterranean and elsewhere in Asia.
00:07:47So that definitely is something that happens on islands.
00:07:52But there's more to it, which is actually fascinating
00:07:55because on that same island of Flores,
00:07:57not only were there other small bodied species,
00:08:00but there were actually giants too.
00:08:02So the Komodo dragon from Australia,
00:08:05this is, sorry, not from Australia,
00:08:07from Komodo is actually near the island of Flores.
00:08:10So there were species that were closely related
00:08:14to Komodo dragons, but were enormous.
00:08:17These absolutely giant lizards.
00:08:20I mean, really like a real dragon on that same island
00:08:24at the same time as Homo floresiensis.
00:08:27And that's the thing that happens on islands
00:08:29is a lot of times they'll get smaller,
00:08:32but sometimes they'll get much bigger.
00:08:34Think about giant tortoises like in the Galapagos islands.
00:08:38So we call this the island rule.
00:08:41And the idea is like things change size.
00:08:43They either get much bigger or much smaller.
00:08:46And that seems to be true of hominids,
00:08:49which are basically humans or human-like species as well.
00:08:53And I promised I would give you the twist.
00:08:56So there is actually, since that discovery,
00:08:59there was another discovery of another hominid
00:09:03also small-bodied on an island in the Philippines.
00:09:07And it's a different species.
00:09:09It's Homo-- - No way!
00:09:10- Yeah, Homo lusinensis now, Luzon.
00:09:13And so--
00:09:14- Same effect, but a different speciation.
00:09:18- That's the interpretation.
00:09:19We think that this is like yet another instance
00:09:22where some type of hominid goes isolated and became smaller.
00:09:26- Wasn't the Flores man, they were still alive,
00:09:30like 10,000 BC, 12,000 BC, I think.
00:09:34- So the initial dates when those fossils
00:09:36were first discovered were that they survived
00:09:39up until very recently by like historical,
00:09:43not historical, by evolutionary standards,
00:09:46by sort of the geological timescale
00:09:47that we scientists are used to.
00:09:50Those dates have since been pushed back a bit
00:09:54as they've gotten more evidence.
00:09:55So still quite recently, I think it,
00:09:58I want to say it's something like 50,000 years
00:10:01is now when they think they finally disappeared.
00:10:05But the thing is about that,
00:10:06that that still means that they probably overlapped
00:10:09with our species, with Homo sapiens, right?
00:10:12So like the first Homo sapiens were arriving in that area
00:10:16right around the time that Homo floresiensis disappears.
00:10:21- Wow. - So coincidence, you know?
00:10:25- Dude, I mean, we've always thought about this, right?
00:10:27Like everyone's thought,
00:10:29what would it be like to meet an alien?
00:10:32We don't look at any other species and think,
00:10:36oh, they're just like us.
00:10:38I think they're a bit like us.
00:10:39Look at a chimpanzee, look at apes, they're a little bit,
00:10:44I went to the Bwindi impenetrable forest,
00:10:47which is shockingly penetrable, actually.
00:10:50- Yeah. - It's a tourist destination.
00:10:53- I've been there as well.
00:10:53My wife and I went there.
00:10:55- Did you do the silverback gorilla tracking thing?
00:10:57- We did.
00:10:58One of the most amazing experiences I've ever had.
00:10:59- It was, I did the same thing as you
00:11:02and I'm five yards, four yards away
00:11:05from this thousand pound monster.
00:11:09And you think, wow, it's so much like us, right?
00:11:13But it's not, you know it's not, you know it's not us.
00:11:15I wonder what, I wonder what would have happened culturally
00:11:20if we did have a different hominid species
00:11:24still floating around.
00:11:25Are they us or are they other?
00:11:28Would we have more kin protection over them
00:11:31or something else?
00:11:32But anyway, I--
00:11:33- I think about this all the time.
00:11:34I agree with you.
00:11:35It is, because we're used to, as you said,
00:11:37we're used to a world where the closest thing to us
00:11:40is still-- - Is very different.
00:11:41- Is pretty different. - Yep, yep.
00:11:42- There's, you know, and that is not the way
00:11:46the world has been for the vast majority
00:11:48of our species history.
00:11:50For most of our species history,
00:11:52there were multiple types of human on this planet
00:11:55and we interacted with them.
00:11:57- Perhaps at varying degrees of peacefulness, we'll see.
00:12:01So this is the first time, if this is the case,
00:12:03if we go to Mars, if we settle Mars as humans,
00:12:07this will be the first time in history
00:12:10that a species will knowingly place itself
00:12:13in an environment that almost guarantees
00:12:15biological divergence?
00:12:17- Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.
00:12:19I mean, you know, you can think about how our species
00:12:22has gone to extreme places on Earth throughout history,
00:12:26right, Antarctica, the bottom of the ocean,
00:12:28these kinds of, you know, very high mountains,
00:12:31but we generally didn't go there to stay, right?
00:12:34There's nobody that is living on Antarctica,
00:12:37like raising their kids there and these kinds of things.
00:12:40And even in those extreme environments,
00:12:43what we think of as extreme, you know,
00:12:46you can be in Antarctica and it's very cold,
00:12:48don't get me wrong, but you could still walk outside
00:12:50and breathe oxygen, right?
00:12:53Your blood doesn't boil if there's a leak in your habitat
00:12:57the way it would on Mars.
00:12:59So we're talking about a very different level of extreme
00:13:04when we talk about how extreme the environment is on Mars.
00:13:06So yeah, I think you're right.
00:13:07I think that it would be the first time
00:13:09that we would be knowingly putting ourselves
00:13:13in that extreme of an environment
00:13:15and trying to actually live there.
00:13:17- Okay, before we even get to Mars,
00:13:20what happens during space flight?
00:13:21- Yeah, so, you know, it's funny
00:13:25'cause we haven't been flying in space for that long, right?
00:13:27Like, you know, we've got what?
00:13:29It's like 70 years of history of human space.
00:13:32- We're already looking past it.
00:13:34We're already thinking, ah, we've, you know,
00:13:36space, we've got that, that's in the bag, what's next?
00:13:38- Yeah, and you know, in the early days,
00:13:40like we had no idea, like literally people thought
00:13:42like your eyes might pop out of your head
00:13:44if you go into space, like that was a question.
00:13:46Could you swallow?
00:13:46These were unanswered questions when people first
00:13:50went to space, but we've learned a time.
00:13:51Like we know quite a bit now about if you were to,
00:13:55you know, get on a rocket, fly up to space,
00:13:58spend, you know, a couple of days there and come back.
00:14:01You know, we could tell you with a lot of certainty
00:14:03kind of what is likely to happen to your body.
00:14:06And we know that like the main effects
00:14:07are the change in gravity, right?
00:14:09You're in a weightless environment typically
00:14:11when you're in space and that does a lot to your body.
00:14:16It causes your muscles to weaken
00:14:18'cause they don't have to work as hard, right?
00:14:20Especially like in your lower body, your back.
00:14:22And because your muscles aren't working as hard,
00:14:27your bones basically respond to muscle.
00:14:31And so they start to kind of break down.
00:14:34Like they basically will start to absorb,
00:14:36the body will absorb some of the minerals, right?
00:14:39The calcium and the potassium that makes up your bones.
00:14:43- Is that just because they're not being strained?
00:14:46Is this kind of like atrophy for the muscles,
00:14:48but for the structure?
00:14:50- Exactly.
00:14:51And actually one of the ways that people have studied
00:14:53the effects of prolonged space flight
00:14:55is through bed rest studies.
00:14:56So just by not moving your body much,
00:14:59it's not a perfect replica,
00:15:01but it does simulate some of the ways
00:15:04in which being in a lower gravity environment
00:15:06impacts the body, the circulatory system, right?
00:15:09Your heart's not having to pump as much to get blood
00:15:12through the entire body.
00:15:13To get blood up to your brain,
00:15:16you gotta work against gravity here,
00:15:17but in space you don't.
00:15:19So we know a lot about that.
00:15:21We know that the fluids in your body actually,
00:15:25not just the blood,
00:15:27but all of your body fluids start to be redistributed
00:15:29because gravity normally pushes them down
00:15:32towards your lower body.
00:15:33So if you look at pictures of astronauts in space,
00:15:36you probably can tell, especially at first,
00:15:39their faces look kind of puffy.
00:15:40- Moon face.
00:15:41- Yeah.
00:15:42- Space face, they've got space face.
00:15:44- They have space face
00:15:44and they have what they call chicken legs, right?
00:15:46'Cause their legs look super skinny
00:15:48because they've lost all this fluid.
00:15:49So they look a little silly, at least at first.
00:15:52- Hang on, just on that at first,
00:15:54does that mean that the body somehow reaches
00:15:56a new kind of equilibrium?
00:15:58So I'm gonna guess a lot of this is kind of what,
00:16:00glymphatic, glymphatic clearance stuff?
00:16:03- That's right.
00:16:04- Right.
00:16:04- Yeah, so now that we've had people
00:16:07that have stayed for longer flights,
00:16:10you know, up to a year and even a bit longer,
00:16:12we have been able to see that like,
00:16:14yeah, there are ways in which some of the systems
00:16:16in the body have like an initial adjustment period
00:16:20and then they start to kind of reach a plateau
00:16:24or they start to kind of return to normal.
00:16:26You know, like the body,
00:16:27when it has all of this extra fluid in the head
00:16:31or more fluid than you're used to having in the head,
00:16:33your body interprets that as too much fluid.
00:16:36And so one of the things that the body does
00:16:39is it starts to reduce the amount of plasma in your blood.
00:16:44And so you're actually losing blood volume
00:16:49by being in space for a longer period of time.
00:16:52And you start to reduce the production of red blood cells
00:16:56because your body's thinking, I don't need so much blood.
00:16:59And so astronauts often come back from space anemic
00:17:03and that has other health implications as you know.
00:17:07So that is something that is like an adjustment
00:17:11that the body makes.
00:17:12And then when you come back to earth,
00:17:12you go through yet another adjustment.
00:17:15And that's just gravity.
00:17:17There's also radiation, right?
00:17:19So that's something that is going to be really important
00:17:24for thinking about deep space,
00:17:28because actually what we know about how radiation
00:17:31affects astronauts is mostly from how astronauts
00:17:35are affected by being in low earth orbit.
00:17:38So the International Space Station is in low earth orbit.
00:17:41It's orbiting the earth, but it's close enough to the earth
00:17:45that it's actually still inside the magnetic field
00:17:50that is surrounding our planet,
00:17:51which extends out quite far into space.
00:17:54And so that magnetic field actually traps a lot
00:17:57of the space radiation and prevents it
00:17:59from getting closer to the earth.
00:18:01So astronauts on the International Space Station
00:18:04aren't exposed to as much radiation as astronauts
00:18:07on the moon, on Mars, or traveling anywhere
00:18:10beyond the limits of that magnetic field, magnetosphere.
00:18:13Those are called the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:18:17And interesting story how they were discovered.
00:18:19I talk about that in my book, but you know, yeah,
00:18:22we know that that radiation affects the body, right?
00:18:26I mean, the thing that you typically think about is cancer.
00:18:29And the cancer risk for anybody traveling in space
00:18:33is certainly higher.
00:18:35It's one of the reasons that NASA limits the amount of time
00:18:39that astronauts are able to go to space.
00:18:42Astronauts essentially will kind of time out
00:18:45at a certain point if they have reached a radiation exposure
00:18:49that NASA deems to be too risky.
00:18:53And so that's a known risk, but we also know
00:19:01that there's things other than cancer that radiation does.
00:19:06So radiation can have cognitive effects.
00:19:09There's some really interesting research
00:19:11that looks at simulated space radiation
00:19:15and tries to understand what does this do
00:19:19to our nervous system, right?
00:19:22And research on rodents, for example,
00:19:24shows that if they're exposed to simulated space radiation,
00:19:29they actually have slower responses to tasks
00:19:32that they've been taught how to do.
00:19:34That's pretty concerning for anybody planning
00:19:37on going deeper into space.
00:19:40- Quick thinking, trying to problem solve,
00:19:42fix whatever this pipe is that's just broken.
00:19:45Oh, hang on, the environment has made me stupid.
00:19:48- Yeah, I mean, there's a thing that people call,
00:19:51astronauts call space fog or space brain sometimes.
00:19:55- Space face and space brain.
00:19:57- There you go, yeah, exactly.
00:19:59And it's sort of like you're just kinda a little bit,
00:20:02a little out of it, a little slower to respond to tasks
00:20:06that you would otherwise be able to do quickly.
00:20:08And they can adjust, but if that is something
00:20:12that gets worse with more radiation exposure,
00:20:15that's important for us to know
00:20:16if we're gonna spend more time in deep space.
00:20:19- How reversible are these?
00:20:21- We don't know.
00:20:22So partly it's because the amount of radiation
00:20:26that those astronauts have been exposed to,
00:20:28as I said, isn't as great.
00:20:30It's actually a different type of radiation even then.
00:20:33So there's what's called these galactic cosmic rays
00:20:35that are out in space.
00:20:36This is radiation zipping around from other galaxies,
00:20:40and it's largely trapped by our magnetic field.
00:20:44So once you get out to the moon, to Mars,
00:20:47any place that we might wanna travel
00:20:49that goes beyond low earth orbit,
00:20:52we're talking about a lot more radiation exposure.
00:20:55We just simply don't know what that will do to people,
00:20:58or especially if they're being exposed to it
00:21:00for a much longer period of time.
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00:21:45What was that story about how the Van Allen?
00:21:50- Yeah, the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:21:53So, you know, it starts with basically trying to figure out
00:21:56like, you know, where is radiation coming from?
00:21:58We can detect on the surface of the earth
00:22:00that there's, you know, some radiation.
00:22:03And the initial experiments were actually done
00:22:05by putting radiation detectors on hot air balloons
00:22:08and allowing those balloons to go higher and higher.
00:22:11And the surprising thing was that the radiation exposure
00:22:14increased as they got higher and higher in the atmosphere.
00:22:17So at first people thought like,
00:22:19the radiation's probably coming from earth,
00:22:21maybe from the center of the earth.
00:22:23No, it's coming from somewhere up high.
00:22:26And you know, even maybe it's the sun, right?
00:22:29Well, if it's the sun, then those exposures
00:22:32should be higher during daytime than during nighttime.
00:22:35And it wasn't.
00:22:37They even measured it during an eclipse.
00:22:39It should like decrease slightly
00:22:42when the sun is being blocked by the moon, right?
00:22:44It doesn't do that.
00:22:45And then what ended up happening was
00:22:49once we were able to send satellites deeper into space,
00:22:53the initial measurements,
00:22:55this is done on a Geiger counter, right?
00:22:57So the thing that like clicks
00:22:58when you're trying to detect radiation,
00:23:00it makes like a, it's kind of sound like that, right?
00:23:03And the more rapid the clicks are,
00:23:05the higher the radiation exposure.
00:23:07Well, the very first time one of these was sent up
00:23:10on a satellite, it's clicking, clicking, clicking,
00:23:14the rate is getting higher,
00:23:15and then all of a sudden it just stops.
00:23:18So it's like, what the heck's going on?
00:23:20Is there just no, suddenly no radiation?
00:23:23And it turned out, no, actually there was so much radiation,
00:23:27it was just overwhelming the sensors of the Geiger counter.
00:23:30Yeah.
00:23:31- Holy shit.
00:23:33- Exactly.
00:23:34- So I mean, I've heard, this is like,
00:23:37I'm using the dramatized series of Chernobyl as my,
00:23:42well, I've heard Geiger counters and they were in Chernobyl.
00:23:45Is it? Okay.
00:23:46But even at least in the, and it was trying to be accurate,
00:23:50I think, scientifically.
00:23:52And even in that, the Geiger counter still made a noise.
00:23:56It wasn't as if it blew out the top of it.
00:23:59It was just ticking super, super fast.
00:24:01So yeah, if you think,
00:24:03well, there's an elephant's foot down there,
00:24:04that's the most radioactive thing on the planet.
00:24:06But if you just go far enough away from us,
00:24:09you go to a point where Geiger counters
00:24:11just essentially top out, that's pretty scary.
00:24:15- Exactly, yeah.
00:24:16So what they did, they sent another satellite
00:24:19with a different type of device
00:24:21or calibrated differently or whatever.
00:24:22And then we're able to determine,
00:24:23oh yeah, you get to this certain kind of elevation
00:24:27in orbit around the earth.
00:24:29And all of a sudden there's just huge amounts of radiation.
00:24:32So we now know that there's these Van Allen radiation belts.
00:24:35There's like an inner belt and an outer belt.
00:24:38So you can kind of picture this as like,
00:24:40imagine a ball, that's the earth.
00:24:42And then you take a rubber band that's bigger than that ball.
00:24:45And then you kind of pinch it
00:24:47in the middle around the ball.
00:24:48So you've got this kind of two sort of orbs
00:24:50coming out from the earth.
00:24:53And that's the shape of the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:24:56- Well, that's why if we didn't have the iron core
00:25:00in the earth, the magnetosphere, magnetic sphere around us,
00:25:05would all of these rays would just be able to pepper us.
00:25:09I mean, there would be a ton of other problems as well.
00:25:11But one of them is that we would just get
00:25:13annihilated by radiation.
00:25:14Okay, so we've somehow, me and you have survived our journey
00:25:19across space and we've managed to land in Mars.
00:25:22Some of the stuff may be reversible.
00:25:24Some of the stuff may not be reversible.
00:25:25We'll see, we can't walk too much.
00:25:27We've got space face and space brain and chicken legs.
00:25:30What will the different physics on Mars do to humans?
00:25:36Just more of the same from the space flight?
00:25:39Is there anything else to say on the sort of physics
00:25:42of the system?
00:25:43- Yeah, so first of all, it takes something like
00:25:47six to nine months just to get there.
00:25:50So you're talking about you've been traveling through space,
00:25:53microgravity, weightlessness, for let's say six months.
00:25:58So your body is going through all those things
00:26:01that we were just talking about.
00:26:02Your muscles have become weaker.
00:26:04Your bones have become more brittle.
00:26:07The fluids have redistributed.
00:26:09That has other effects like on our eyes.
00:26:11The vision actually has a tendency to get worse.
00:26:14So that's all happening.
00:26:15Then you arrive on Mars and let's assume
00:26:18that the landing goes well and you are now on the surface.
00:26:23Now all of a sudden you're in a 1/3 gravity environment.
00:26:283/8, about 1/3 gravity environment
00:26:30compared to Earth's gravity.
00:26:32So you went from weightlessness to 1/3 G.
00:26:37And so now all of a sudden there's all this weight,
00:26:39all this force on your body.
00:26:42- Even though it's 1/3 of what's on Earth,
00:26:44it's an infinity more than what was in space.
00:26:46- Yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:26:48And so if you look at anytime astronauts come back
00:26:52from being in space, they need a lot of help
00:26:56in order just to get out of the spacecraft, to walk.
00:26:58It's like there's a long adjustment period.
00:27:00So one of the things is just immediately like that,
00:27:04even though it's just 1/3 G, that's gonna be hard
00:27:08on somebody that has been in a weightless environment
00:27:11for that amount of time.
00:27:12So if there's nobody else there to help you,
00:27:15just even getting out of your spacecraft
00:27:16might be pretty tricky. - Robo legs maybe,
00:27:18some of those assistance things, devices.
00:27:21Well, I mean, they're trying to offset this.
00:27:22I've seen astronauts using
00:27:25the sort of hand-crank cycling machines.
00:27:28You can artificially recreate force and tension and pressure
00:27:33by using stuff that has it built into the system itself.
00:27:37But the globalness of gravity, working on the spine,
00:27:42working on the organs, working on the lymph system,
00:27:45working on circulation, working on reproductive organs,
00:27:48working on, you know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.
00:27:51Yeah, I don't think that you're gonna be really trying
00:27:56to pick up pennies here when there's a shit ton
00:27:59of hundred dollar bills that you've left behind you.
00:28:01- Right, yeah, no, you're right.
00:28:02So I mean, astronauts do a lot of exercise in space.
00:28:04You're absolutely right.
00:28:06You know, using kind of resistance because you can't use,
00:28:09you know, weightlifting doesn't make sense
00:28:11in a weightless environment.
00:28:12And all of that is really meant to minimize
00:28:15the deconditioning that happens to the body, right?
00:28:19But it doesn't eliminate it.
00:28:21If you didn't do that kind of exercise,
00:28:23and they exercise about two hours a day, every day.
00:28:26So this is not like a small amount.
00:28:28If you didn't do that, you'd be in way worse shape.
00:28:32So, you know, we've arrived at Mars,
00:28:35we've done our two hours a day, every day.
00:28:38Still, it's gonna be a challenge
00:28:40to just get up and move around.
00:28:42Who knows what the cognitive effects
00:28:43of that radiation exposure.
00:28:45You've been exposed to galactic cosmic rays for six months.
00:28:49Nobody's ever had that happen.
00:28:50We simply don't know what the effect will be.
00:28:53And then there's another factor.
00:28:56What have you been eating all this time?
00:28:59You know, astronauts, you know,
00:29:02we're all kind of familiar with the idea
00:29:03of like freeze-dried foods and stuff like that,
00:29:06that astronauts typically bring with them.
00:29:08They are having to bring kind of, you know,
00:29:13shelf-stable food.
00:29:15But even in the International Space Station,
00:29:19they're able to occasionally resupply them
00:29:22with some kind of fresh food, some fresh produce.
00:29:25There's a story of Russian cosmonauts,
00:29:28the first to be living for a longer period of time
00:29:31on a space station and they smuggled in an onion.
00:29:36And it was the first ever birthday
00:29:40that a person had in space and they gave this cosmonaut
00:29:44an onion for his birthday.
00:29:45And it was the most wonderful thing.
00:29:48- That is the most Russian shit
00:29:50I have ever heard in my entire life.
00:29:52- Yep.
00:29:54- We have birthday, we have onion.
00:29:56- Yep, contraband onion, no less.
00:29:59- Legal onion.
00:30:00- Yep, yep.
00:30:02But like the point is people really get excited
00:30:04about any kind of fresh produce that you can have.
00:30:09We have not made major advances in our ability
00:30:13to grow large amounts of food
00:30:15in any sort of space environment.
00:30:17This is something that people are actively trying to work on.
00:30:21They have grown plants on the International Space Station,
00:30:24but at very small scales.
00:30:27And the astronauts tend to get really attached
00:30:28to those plants.
00:30:30And so we think that's gonna be a major limiting factor
00:30:35in our ability to go deeper into space
00:30:37is what are we gonna eat?
00:30:39Nobody wants to go and eat canned food,
00:30:41packaged food for years at a time
00:30:44without mixing it up with some fresh food.
00:30:48So that's another one of the challenges.
00:30:51- Given the radiation issues,
00:30:54does that mean there's going to be higher mutation load
00:30:57just generally over time?
00:30:59- I think it does.
00:31:01So I think we should expect that people
00:31:03are going to be exposed to higher radiation
00:31:05even if they're living in some kind of an environment
00:31:09that's trying to shield, block that radiation.
00:31:11- Special 3D printed reflective anti-radiation.
00:31:16They've already done the nine months to get out there.
00:31:18They're probably going in and out doing Mars walks
00:31:21or spacewalks or some sort of equivalent thing.
00:31:23And the 3D printing machines,
00:31:25at least for the first few centuries,
00:31:27they're not going to be able to block everything
00:31:29and there's more radiation.
00:31:30- Yeah, I mean, even if you built
00:31:32a fully radiation-proof enclosure
00:31:34that you could live in on Mars,
00:31:36who wants to go to Mars and never go walk around outside?
00:31:39I mean, what's the point?
00:31:41So I think people will be exposed to more radiation.
00:31:44And yeah, radiation causes mutations.
00:31:47It causes damage to the DNA.
00:31:49And when the body repairs that damage,
00:31:51it's never a perfect process.
00:31:53There's always a risk that the repair
00:31:57leads to a change in the sequence of DNA
00:32:00and that's a mutation.
00:32:02So that's a health risk,
00:32:05but it also has implications for our ability to adapt
00:32:09over a much longer timescale of many generations.
00:32:13- What does it do to adaptability?
00:32:17- Well, adaptation comes from natural selection
00:32:20and natural selection on its own
00:32:21can only really sift through whatever variation there is.
00:32:25And so the only way you get new variation
00:32:28is through mutation.
00:32:29Mutation is the ultimate source of all diversity
00:32:33of all living things. - Why is this
00:32:34not a good thing then?
00:32:35Does this not push the dice rolling more quickly?
00:32:38- So I think that what we should expect,
00:32:40if we do nothing else,
00:32:41is that we're able to live for many generations
00:32:45in a space environment like on Mars.
00:32:47It would mean that basically you are kickstarting
00:32:51the evolutionary process.
00:32:52It would happen faster.
00:32:53Why that is something we should maybe be concerned about
00:32:56is that's a very messy and unpleasant process.
00:32:59We're basically talking about a lot of death.
00:33:01- There's gonna be tons of errors.
00:33:01There's gonna be shed tons of errors.
00:33:02Well, that one doesn't work.
00:33:03That one doesn't work.
00:33:04That one doesn't work.
00:33:05That one kind of works.
00:33:06That one doesn't work.
00:33:07That one doesn't work.
00:33:08- Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a lot of suffering.
00:33:10You're talking about a lot of death.
00:33:12And so that's, you know, it would happen.
00:33:15I think what I try to argue is that's sort of the default
00:33:18that we should expect is that if we're living
00:33:21for many generations in this kind of an extreme environment,
00:33:24natural selection will do its thing.
00:33:26Mutation rates would be higher
00:33:28because of that radiation exposure.
00:33:30And so basically the process that we normally think of
00:33:33as being generally pretty slow would actually happen faster.
00:33:37- Yeah, well, okay.
00:33:38But what about selection bottlenecks?
00:33:41'Cause if Mars is going to accelerate
00:33:43this evolutionary roulette,
00:33:45you end up with selection bottlenecks.
00:33:48- Yeah, the idea of bottlenecks,
00:33:50I think this is an important concept
00:33:51that we have to think about if what we're trying to do
00:33:55is to create a long-term settlement.
00:33:57Because we know that anytime you take a large number
00:33:59of individuals and then you take a small number of them
00:34:02and put them somewhere else, right?
00:34:04You've gone through a population bottleneck.
00:34:07That's, you know, basically it's like pouring.
00:34:09I do this simulation in my classes sometimes
00:34:11where you take like a bottle that's filled
00:34:14with like different colored gumballs, right?
00:34:16And you know how many different colors there are.
00:34:18And then you pour out a few of them and then you ask, okay,
00:34:21is the proportion of different colored gumballs the same
00:34:24as it was in the bottle at the starting point
00:34:26or is it different?
00:34:27And of course it's gonna be different.
00:34:28It's never gonna be exactly the same.
00:34:30So you take a small number of individuals from a large group,
00:34:32it's not gonna be representative.
00:34:34So that kind of reduction in population size
00:34:39that happens when, you know, when you found a new population,
00:34:43it leads to rapid evolutionary change.
00:34:46And we call that the founder effect in evolutionary biology
00:34:50because it's a well-known phenomenon.
00:34:52Anytime, you know, a new population is founded,
00:34:56you tend to get a reduction of genetic diversity
00:34:59and whoever the individuals are that are the founders
00:35:03have this like really disproportionate effect
00:35:06on what happens later.
00:35:07Like they're really influential.
00:35:09- Have you ever read "Seveneves" by Neil Stevenson?
00:35:11- I have, yes.
00:35:12- Dude, this is exactly what the founder effect is, right?
00:35:15- That's right, yep, yep.
00:35:16- I don't wanna spoil it.
00:35:17It's in my first reading list
00:35:19that lots of people have downloaded.
00:35:20So maybe loads of people that are listening
00:35:21also know the spoiler too.
00:35:23Actually, skip forward.
00:35:24If you haven't read "Seveneves,"
00:35:26skip forward by about 30 seconds.
00:35:27So halfway through the book after the moon explodes,
00:35:30there's seven women left.
00:35:31I think only one of them can't reproduce.
00:35:33I think one of them is like a matron marshal type lady
00:35:36or maybe there's eight and seven can reproduce.
00:35:38And yeah, you end up with these seven different races
00:35:40in future.
00:35:41And each one is very distinct.
00:35:44And welcome back to the people that didn't read "Seveneves."
00:35:48You end up with this sort of very distinct lineage.
00:35:51And that's the best.
00:35:53This is why hard sci-fi rules,
00:35:55because I get to learn about real stuff
00:35:57and it's snuck in under the guise of it being a story.
00:36:00- Oh, there's so many examples of how a science fiction author
00:36:04has already thought through a lot of the real challenges
00:36:07and the real consequences.
00:36:09Do you remember in "Seveneves" that there was such a scarcity
00:36:13of food halfway through that somebody invented the idea
00:36:16of soft cannibalism?
00:36:18Do you remember that?
00:36:20- Soft cannibalism.
00:36:21- He ate his own legs because he decided that in space,
00:36:25legs were arbitrary. - You don't eat them.
00:36:26Yeah, they're superfluous.
00:36:27- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:28And he reduced his energy requirement
00:36:30and increased his energy intake by eating his own legs.
00:36:32So cool.
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00:37:46So you've got habitats on Mars, 3D printed,
00:37:49hopefully protective,
00:37:50but closed systems magnify small errors even more.
00:37:55It's basically like being in a closed system
00:37:58is more akin to being on an island
00:38:00than it is being in a city.
00:38:01- That's right, yeah.
00:38:03I mean, you are in an island, right?
00:38:05I mean, you're in a place where you can live,
00:38:07but you're surrounded by an inhospitable environment.
00:38:10And so, yeah, I mean, that's an island.
00:38:12Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it.
00:38:15- So presumably there's gonna be huge survival pressures
00:38:20on psychological traits,
00:38:22maybe just as much as the physical ones.
00:38:25- Psychological traits, definitely, and skills.
00:38:29I mean, think about who are the people
00:38:31you would wanna send to establish a new,
00:38:34a new human population on Mars.
00:38:37I mean, you want people who are likely
00:38:39to be able to handle tough situations,
00:38:41but you also want people who know how to do
00:38:44all different sorts of things.
00:38:45You need different skills,
00:38:48you need different personality traits,
00:38:52but you also wanna make sure you've enhanced
00:38:54the kind of probability of success
00:38:59by making sure it's also a genetically diverse
00:39:02group of people, you know?
00:39:03I mean, the more genetically diverse it is,
00:39:07the more opportunity there is for natural selection
00:39:10to be able to help people to adapt in future generations.
00:39:15So, yeah, I think it would have to be quite different
00:39:18from how we have kind of historically chosen
00:39:22who gets to go to space, right?
00:39:24You know, I don't, did you ever read-
00:39:25- So you would actually want, you would actually,
00:39:27oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:39:28- Well, so there's kind of this like famous book
00:39:31from I think in 1979 called "The Right Stuff" by Tom Wolfe.
00:39:35I don't know if you've ever read that.
00:39:36It's like one of the classic accounts of the early days
00:39:39of the US space program.
00:39:42But that title, that idea of the right stuff,
00:39:45like who is it that has the right stuff
00:39:47that gets to be the select few that go to space?
00:39:51And at least initially for the US,
00:39:52it was all, well, first of all, it was all men,
00:39:56it was all white men.
00:39:57And then it was all like actually Navy test pilots, right?
00:40:02So they took them from the military.
00:40:04It was only people who were already in the military
00:40:08and they were chosen for their ability to be able
00:40:10to handle the physical aspects of a launch and being in space
00:40:15and also the psychological challenges.
00:40:19And, you know, I mean, the US space program
00:40:21is huge success clearly.
00:40:24But if you use those same criteria to select people
00:40:28for who's going to found a new population on Mars,
00:40:31you'd get such a tiny fraction of human diversity,
00:40:34you'd be setting yourself up for failure.
00:40:36- Which is only gonna get more bottlenecked over time.
00:40:39- That's right. - So you get tighter and tighter.
00:40:40So you need to make the base of this pyramid
00:40:42as broad as possible.
00:40:43So, I mean, I was thinking as you were speaking,
00:40:45you know, people who have brittle bones, for instance,
00:40:50maybe they have something which is actually useful in there
00:40:53because all of the selection pressures
00:40:54that we have currently,
00:40:56we want someone who's big and strong.
00:40:59Why?
00:41:00Gravity is 30% of the,
00:41:01maybe we actually want people who are really petite
00:41:04and therefore they need fewer calories
00:41:06and therefore they don't need to eat their own legs.
00:41:08- That's right.
00:41:09- When it comes to the personalities,
00:41:11are there some personalities that are more suited
00:41:13for space colonization than others?
00:41:15- Well, we do know from a lot of the studies
00:41:19that have been done in analogs,
00:41:20like we were talking about earlier,
00:41:21and this includes things like people who are working
00:41:25in Antarctica in the most sort of similar environment
00:41:28that exists on earth to what it will be like there, right?
00:41:31You're in an isolated, extreme, confined environment
00:41:35surrounded by, you know, hostile conditions.
00:41:39So, you know, what are the factors that lead to success,
00:41:44especially for like people
00:41:45who are overwintering in Antarctica?
00:41:48Like they're staying, you can't just, you know,
00:41:50leave whenever you want to because there's no way
00:41:52to kind of get a ship or a plane in.
00:41:55People who do well in that environment
00:42:00are people who are good team players,
00:42:04are people who are, you know,
00:42:07open about kind of how the experience is going for them,
00:42:10willing to talk about it,
00:42:11willing to talk about it with others.
00:42:14You know, you also want a good chemistry among the group,
00:42:18right, so you don't want, you know, all type A personalities
00:42:22'cause they're likely to kind of clash, right?
00:42:26And so there's all these studies that have like looked
00:42:29at the psychology of group dynamics.
00:42:31An interesting one is you don't want
00:42:33an even number of people.
00:42:35You want an odd number. - Is that for voting?
00:42:38- It's because it can split into, yeah, basically,
00:42:41it could split into factions and you need a tiebreaker, right?
00:42:47So there've been examples of where that has happened
00:42:50and it hasn't always gone well.
00:42:52So yeah, so there's interesting lessons that can be learned
00:42:55from, you know, what happens here on earth.
00:42:57- That is so good.
00:42:59Wow, okay, so you mentioned before about who gets
00:43:02to go to Mars first, sort of the best people,
00:43:04the strongest people, the richest people,
00:43:06the most obedient people.
00:43:08Who do you think should govern Mars?
00:43:09Is it earth governments?
00:43:11Is it companies?
00:43:12Is it the colonists themselves?
00:43:14What about the politics?
00:43:15What about the astro Martian politics?
00:43:17- You know, I think we have this tendency
00:43:18to think about going to space as being like an opportunity
00:43:22to, you know, start completely fresh
00:43:25and get it right this time and all, you know,
00:43:27this like we're gonna have a utopia in space.
00:43:31I'm not convinced by that way of thinking about it.
00:43:33I think, you know, humans are humans and we should learn
00:43:37from what has happened before and not expect
00:43:41that it would be different there.
00:43:42So I think we need to try to, you know, do the things
00:43:46that seem to work well here on earth, right?
00:43:48I don't think you wanna have, for example, like, you know,
00:43:51a government from earth dictating what happens on Mars
00:43:56because we know that that doesn't work well.
00:43:59You know, we know that people need to have their own ability
00:44:03to make their own decisions.
00:44:04You want leaders who have skin in the game.
00:44:07- It's also highly inefficient.
00:44:09- Sure, and there's a communication delay.
00:44:11We haven't even talked about that.
00:44:12You can't have this kind of conversation like we're having
00:44:16where one person is on earth and the other person is on Mars
00:44:18because they're so far away that you'll have several minutes
00:44:23of delay between when you say something
00:44:25and when the person hears it on the other end.
00:44:27And it could be up to 20 minutes depending on where earth
00:44:31and Mars are in their respective orbits.
00:44:34So you can send emails, you know,
00:44:36or video messages back and forth,
00:44:37but you can't really have a conversation.
00:44:39So yeah, imagine a government meeting where, you know,
00:44:43you can't even like have a conversation, right?
00:44:45You think it's dysfunctional now, man.
00:44:47(laughing)
00:44:49- Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, there was a campaign
00:44:57when Elon first started floating around the administration
00:45:02to decolonize Mars.
00:45:04And what they meant by that was we don't want the same
00:45:08horrible, inequity, oligopoly, powerful,
00:45:13Matthew principle bullshit to go to this new planet.
00:45:17It was pointed out that there's a little bit of an irony
00:45:19in talking about decolonizing a planet
00:45:21that we haven't yet colonized.
00:45:23But yeah, the politics of this, I think,
00:45:25are just so fascinating.
00:45:27And again, my go-to 70s from Neil Stevenson,
00:45:31they need to work out what happens with murder.
00:45:33What happens if somebody commits a crime in space?
00:45:36Is there a prison?
00:45:37Who's the adjudicator?
00:45:39What are the law?
00:45:40Everything needs to be re-insanciated again.
00:45:42And if you've got people from multiple different countries,
00:45:44so what, the Russians do it this way,
00:45:45but the Americans do it that way,
00:45:46but the Ukrainians do it a different way.
00:45:49- Yeah.
00:45:50- Well, we disagree with your, well, we need to,
00:45:51it's a new, people aren't from nations anymore.
00:45:54And if they are, those factions are just going to become
00:45:57splinters that start to fracture what is supposed to be
00:45:59a cohesive unit into something which is, you know,
00:46:03very individualized, which you don't want.
00:46:05But do you want to say to people that you need to recant
00:46:10your current identity?
00:46:11Well, after a few generations, what does that mean?
00:46:14And then how do you avoid there being new splinter factions?
00:46:16You don't have that much tolerance for error
00:46:19with this stuff when it comes to governance.
00:46:21You know, you can have a good bit of tolerance for error
00:46:23if there's 156 countries or something.
00:46:25If you've got three pods, 200 people, 10 people die.
00:46:30That's a lot of, that's 5%, right?
00:46:33There's a lot of people.
00:46:34So yeah, just, endlessly fascinating.
00:46:38All right, going back to the personality thing,
00:46:41the psychological impact.
00:46:43What does long-term isolation in space do to the human mind?
00:46:48Why are closed ecosystems so psychologically taxing?
00:46:54Well, I think there's a few things, right?
00:46:55I mean, one is just, you know,
00:46:57knowing that you can't leave, right?
00:47:00This is something that, you know, again,
00:47:02people in Antarctica research stations or, you know,
00:47:06some of the remote field camps that they experience,
00:47:08you can't just, you know, go for a walk or say, that's it,
00:47:11I'm done, I'm out of here.
00:47:13A similar kind of thing happens to people
00:47:16who are on submarines, like nuclear submarines
00:47:20that have to spend a long period of time submerged
00:47:24during military operations, right?
00:47:26Can't just step outside?
00:47:28You're pretty much stuck there.
00:47:31The difference there is, you know,
00:47:32they're working within a kind of a military hierarchy system
00:47:35that's sort of, you know, built into the nature
00:47:39of the experience.
00:47:40That's not the case so much in Antarctica,
00:47:43but you know, it's knowing that you can't leave
00:47:47is something that definitely takes a toll, you know?
00:47:52And you have to train for it,
00:47:54you have to be prepared for it,
00:47:55and you have to have, you know, systems in place
00:47:59to allow people to deal with whatever comes with it, right?
00:48:03So you need to be able to have, you know, for example,
00:48:06you know, a therapist available to speak with them.
00:48:09You need to have, you know, resources in place
00:48:12to deal with crises when they do take place as well.
00:48:16So I think that's something that has to be built in.
00:48:19But there's an interesting other side to it, right?
00:48:22So, you know, we think a lot about like,
00:48:24oh, how this is really gonna be hard
00:48:25and it's gonna be something that's gonna have
00:48:28maybe a negative impact on a lot of folks.
00:48:32But there's also this idea that going to space
00:48:35can have a profound positive impact on people.
00:48:39So some of the first accounts of astronauts
00:48:43really, you know, talk about like just the awe and wonder.
00:48:48I mean, people still talk about that today.
00:48:49Everybody that goes to space talks about
00:48:51how incredible it is.
00:48:53- Including Katy Perry, yeah.
00:48:55- Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, yeah.
00:48:57I mean, everybody does.
00:48:58I mean, how could you not--
00:48:59- Including the famed astronaut, Katy Perry.
00:49:01(laughing)
00:49:02- And William Shatner, did you see when he went to space,
00:49:05he talked about this too.
00:49:06- Was it called the blue dot effect
00:49:08or the whole earth effect or something?
00:49:10- It's called the overview effect.
00:49:11- Overview effect.
00:49:12- Yeah, so that's the term that's been given
00:49:16to this phenomenon by Frank White,
00:49:18who's a philosopher of space who, you know,
00:49:22he did all these interviews with, initially with, you know,
00:49:25sort of NASA astronauts and cosmonauts as well.
00:49:29And even up to, you know, more recent flights
00:49:32where we have, you know, people who are kind of
00:49:37everyday citizens that are going up
00:49:38on these commercial space flights now.
00:49:40And so he has basically argued that like,
00:49:45people have this profound shift that happens to them
00:49:48by being in space and looking back at the earth
00:49:51and, you know, seeing, for example,
00:49:53how thin the atmosphere is.
00:49:56It just looks so fragile and delicate, you know,
00:49:59seeing how the earth doesn't look like it does on the map.
00:50:03So there's no borders between nations, you know,
00:50:05this sense that like, we're really all in this together.
00:50:08And then just the vastness of space.
00:50:10So, you know, we're a tiny little dot, right,
00:50:13in the vastness of space.
00:50:15And so he has argued that basically, you know,
00:50:18it would be really good for as many people as possible
00:50:21to go into space and have that experience
00:50:23because it makes us, you know, better people.
00:50:26It makes us better stewards of our planet,
00:50:29of our environment.
00:50:31- I get it, but the entire problem here is
00:50:33there's only one or two generations
00:50:34that are going to be actually traveling there.
00:50:36As soon as you have kids, the same tribal mechanism.
00:50:40Yeah, I mean, what makes you think
00:50:42that the steward of your planet would change
00:50:45because you can see your mom and dad's home planet over there
00:50:48and you're on a different one now?
00:50:49The same psychological effects are just gonna kick in
00:50:52in a different atmosphere.
00:50:54- I think you're right.
00:50:55So this is one of the things I write about is that, you know,
00:50:57I think it would be a fundamentally different thing
00:51:00for children born on Mars or born anywhere else, right?
00:51:04You won't have that same connection.
00:51:06I mean, it's the same kind of phenomenon that happens
00:51:08with, you know, with immigrant families, right?
00:51:11The first generation, they still feel very connected
00:51:13to their home country and culture.
00:51:15And that lasts for a few generations,
00:51:17but eventually you have this kind of like loose identity
00:51:20with that, you know, home country.
00:51:23And maybe you go back and visit
00:51:24and maybe you adopt some of the, you know,
00:51:27the culture, the cuisine, the dress, et cetera.
00:51:29But, you know, eventually people start to think
00:51:32of themselves as belonging to the place where they live.
00:51:35- Look at me, I drive a Camaro.
00:51:37I've only been here four years
00:51:38and I've gone completely fucking feral.
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00:52:46So I think people understand
00:52:48that future humans will physically be different, right?
00:52:51It makes an awful lot of sense.
00:52:54And then if you understand how evolution works,
00:52:56there's gonna be some speciation over time.
00:52:58What I think is really surprising,
00:53:02shocking to a lot of people,
00:53:03will be to consider the idea that Martian human nature
00:53:08would be genetically distinct,
00:53:11like the texture of their minds
00:53:14and the way that their brains function
00:53:16would be not only distinct, but maybe unrecognizable.
00:53:21That sounds wild.
00:53:22Yeah, yeah, I think that's possible.
00:53:24I mean, one thing is, look,
00:53:25I think the most likely kind of environment
00:53:28that we would be living in, like what we would build,
00:53:30where would we live on Mars, would be underground
00:53:34because that is the easiest way
00:53:35to create a habitat that is-
00:53:38You don't have to build anything.
00:53:39Protect it, yeah.
00:53:40You get rid of the stuff that's in there.
00:53:42You don't need building materials.
00:53:43You just need building holes.
00:53:45That's right.
00:53:46And you don't have to worry about the space radiation.
00:53:49You don't have to worry about,
00:53:50we didn't even talk about like meteor impacts, right?
00:53:51Without, Mars has such a thin atmosphere,
00:53:54it has no magnetic field.
00:53:56Its radiation is very high,
00:53:59but also with that thin atmosphere,
00:54:01it's getting bombarded by meteors much more so than Earth.
00:54:06You don't want a glass dome,
00:54:09the way we often see depicted in sci-fi.
00:54:13You want something much more protected.
00:54:16And so what's the, to your point,
00:54:18like what is the psychology of an entire society?
00:54:23Underground, yeah, that's right.
00:54:26That's right.
00:54:26What does that do to your physical features
00:54:31like your eyes, your vision?
00:54:32I mean, presumably using artificial light,
00:54:34but what does it do to you psychologically?
00:54:37How do you think about your spatial awareness
00:54:41and your connection also with the environment?
00:54:46I mean, for me, like I'm a biologist,
00:54:47I love nature, I love being outside in nature.
00:54:51I think most of us do in some way.
00:54:54We have this idea that like going on a walk in the woods
00:54:58or in a park, it makes us feel better, right?
00:55:01There's a benefit to being out in nature
00:55:04that we can all recognize.
00:55:06And even just like having an animal, like a pet, right?
00:55:09Like I've got dogs, we all love to be around animals.
00:55:13We have to think about what the world would be like
00:55:16if there wasn't nature around us.
00:55:19I mean, living on Mars, there's no wildlife,
00:55:23there's no forests.
00:55:25Now, presumably we'll build habitats and environments
00:55:28that allow us to live and we'll have to grow crops
00:55:31and things like that.
00:55:32But I think we're unlikely to bring
00:55:35much in the way of animals with us.
00:55:38And so, you know.
00:55:40- Look at every sci-fi movie ever
00:55:42where they're trying to go to some new habitat.
00:55:43Yeah, the physical effects start to kick in
00:55:46and a few people do this thing.
00:55:48But the big issue, like me justifying the future
00:55:52of Martian colonization through what I've seen in Hollywood.
00:55:56But it's how I can see it that the psychological impacts
00:56:00are the things that are really, really destructive
00:56:03because they have a domino effect
00:56:05in a manner that the physical ailments are bounded, I guess,
00:56:09by, you know, I get sick, you don't necessarily get sick,
00:56:12something happening to me.
00:56:13But if I become psychotic,
00:56:17I can take out an entire pod of people
00:56:19or I can do something catastrophic to the air supply
00:56:23or I can run out and get blown up or do whatever myself.
00:56:26So, okay.
00:56:27Continuing future people,
00:56:30how are we gonna do reproduction in space?
00:56:33What happens with keeping us going?
00:56:36- Well, I will say that in terms of like what we do know
00:56:39and what we don't know about like how space affects
00:56:43the human body and our ability to actually live
00:56:46in a space environment or another world,
00:56:48I think this is the biggest black box, the biggest unknown.
00:56:52We have done so little amount of research on reproduction
00:56:57in a lower gravity environment, in a space environment,
00:57:00that the bottom line is we don't know.
00:57:02We're sort of assuming anytime we talk about like,
00:57:05you know, moving to Mars or building a space settlement,
00:57:09we are assuming that reproduction is possible,
00:57:13that it will work well enough.
00:57:15And that's actually something that we can't be certain of
00:57:17without doing more research.
00:57:20There have been some studies.
00:57:21So there've been some studies in space,
00:57:24going back to the space shuttle days
00:57:26and certainly through the International Space Station era,
00:57:30some rodent studies, some studies on fish,
00:57:33some studies on other invertebrate animals like sea urchins.
00:57:38But the bottom line is that it's kind of inconclusive.
00:57:42Like we really haven't done enough
00:57:44and we haven't done systematic enough studies
00:57:47to know that our own ability to, you know, to get pregnant,
00:57:52to have a full pregnancy, two term childbirth,
00:57:58and then child development,
00:58:00like the entire process of growing.
00:58:02You know, what happens to a child's body
00:58:05as your bones are growing?
00:58:07- Growing under zero. - In a 1/3 G.
00:58:10- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:11- We don't know.
00:58:12- I asked Christopher Mason, you know him?
00:58:15- Yes. - Yeah, yeah, of course.
00:58:17He's been on the show once, maybe twice, he was great.
00:58:19And I asked him, has anybody ever had sex in space?
00:58:24And he gave me this look.
00:58:25You're giving me the look now as well.
00:58:27- Well, it's a question everybody wants to know, absolutely.
00:58:30And the bottom line is that officially the answer is no.
00:58:35- You've given me the same answer.
00:58:36- We don't have any documents.
00:58:37- Have you guys been given some sort of talking sheet
00:58:39or something, that's exactly what you said.
00:58:40- This is a topic that comes up a lot.
00:58:43So there's, you know, a lot that's been written about it,
00:58:47including I write about it in my book.
00:58:50So yeah, we don't know, we don't know.
00:58:52Nobody claims to have had sex in space.
00:58:56And there is definitely not any documentation
00:58:59of sex in space.
00:59:00There was a married couple, two NASA astronauts
00:59:03that were on the space shuttle at the same time.
00:59:05- If you think that a married couple are going to space
00:59:10and they're not gonna join the million mile high club,
00:59:13you are out of your mind.
00:59:14- Yep, and so because of that,
00:59:16there's been all this speculation that like,
00:59:18surely they must have, but you know,
00:59:20NASA was very hush-hush about it.
00:59:22The two astronauts in question were very hush-hush.
00:59:25I've asked about this, including, you know,
00:59:27contacts and friends of mine at NASA
00:59:30and in the space industry.
00:59:32And one of the things that I've been told is like,
00:59:34look, if you know what it was like on the space shuttle,
00:59:37there was no privacy.
00:59:39Like there is like, if that happened,
00:59:40it would not have been done in private.
00:59:42And so that maybe, you know,
00:59:45makes it a little less likely that it happened, but.
00:59:47- Okay, okay.
00:59:48Well, someone's gotta be the first, right?
00:59:51And there's not many, that's the real territory to conquer.
00:59:54I don't care about being the first on Mars.
00:59:56I just want to be the first,
00:59:56I want to be the first guy to bone in space.
00:59:58Okay, reproduction, we've already,
01:00:02I've done a lot of episodes about embryo selection,
01:00:06about IVG, some stuff with artificial wombs.
01:00:11Do you think it's realistic that reproduction
01:00:15will be technologically mediated
01:00:17to try and offset some of this stuff?
01:00:19How is the reproduction process gonna happen?
01:00:23- Here's the thing that worries me.
01:00:25If what we're talking about is Mars,
01:00:26so you're talking about a one third gravity environment,
01:00:28not a weightless environment,
01:00:29one third gravity environment.
01:00:31I think the risk is once we're talking about people
01:00:34who have lived their entire lives there,
01:00:35like a child born on Mars, right?
01:00:38Who then, you know, basically is, you know,
01:00:41growing in that one third gravity environment,
01:00:43their entire childhood, by the time they get to adulthood
01:00:47and are, you know, childbearing age, right?
01:00:52Imagine a woman who gets pregnant and is going to give birth.
01:00:55She will have had her bones losing bone density
01:01:00her entire life because her genetics are the same genetics
01:01:06that, you know, we all have here on earth,
01:01:09meaning that you're born with a certain bone density,
01:01:12but in a one third gravity environment your entire life,
01:01:15you're losing bone density.
01:01:17So her bones will have become more brittle and weak
01:01:20throughout her childhood and into her adulthood.
01:01:24And now she is giving birth and experiencing,
01:01:27yeah, the, you know, forces of, you know,
01:01:31the woman experiences during childbirth.
01:01:34I think there's a real risk of fractures.
01:01:36And we know that one of the parts of the body
01:01:38that's most prone to fractures
01:01:41from this kind of bone density loss
01:01:44is the hip and the pelvis.
01:01:47- You know Piers, are you familiar with Piers Morgan?
01:01:49You know who he is?
01:01:49He's a journalist guy, he fell off a single step
01:01:52and fractured his hip.
01:01:54So yeah, they are the fragile things.
01:01:57- And so, you know, the reason I bring it up
01:01:59is because that's a kind of a fracture
01:02:02that could actually be deadly if we're talking about it
01:02:06in the context of childbirth, you know,
01:02:10that baby might not survive the experience of childbirth.
01:02:15And so what does that do then?
01:02:17You know, if we're looking about, you know,
01:02:19the impact of this over multiple generations.
01:02:22Yeah, so one possibility is you just avoid the risk.
01:02:26And so all births are done through C-section.
01:02:28But that actually creates other situations
01:02:33because now if all the births are through C-section
01:02:35because, you know, vaginal births are too risky, now--
01:02:40- You're selecting against women
01:02:41who can have vaginal births.
01:02:43- Yeah, and actually you've eliminated
01:02:46one of the constraints
01:02:48that has existed throughout human evolution.
01:02:50- You're gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger babies.
01:02:52Yeah, so Dr. Anna Machin, are you familiar with her?
01:02:55- No.
01:02:56- Evolutionary biologist and psychologist,
01:02:59she's in Robin Dunbar's lab at the University of Oxford.
01:03:03She's wonderful.
01:03:04And she wrote a book called "Life of Dad."
01:03:06She's writing another one about dads actually as well.
01:03:09And she tells the story about how dads saved the human race
01:03:14because baby's heads got too big.
01:03:16And her point is that babies get this massive head
01:03:21because it turns out that intelligence
01:03:24is really good for survival.
01:03:26But in order to get this big head out of that woman
01:03:30without breaking her in half,
01:03:32which would have happened for a good amount of time,
01:03:34there would have been many, many, many women
01:03:35died in childbirth all the time.
01:03:36But just straight up, this baby is so big,
01:03:39it will not come out.
01:03:40And we don't know how to do C-section because it's 5,000 BC,
01:03:42or it's 50,000 BC.
01:03:46Dads were there to help along, not by pulling the baby out,
01:03:50but by the women who were able to get the baby out.
01:03:53This neotenous blob requires six, seven, eight, 10 years
01:03:58of full-time monitoring.
01:04:00So it doesn't get eaten by something or fall off a cliff.
01:04:03And that's why humans have higher MPI,
01:04:08male parental investment, than many of the species,
01:04:10not all species, but many of the species.
01:04:12And yeah, she tells that story.
01:04:14So you have basically this reversion back to that situation
01:04:19where, because the constraint for baby size
01:04:23is no longer limited by birth canal,
01:04:26if everything's happening through C-section,
01:04:28you revisit this issue that was occurring
01:04:32a few hundred thousand years ago.
01:04:34And yeah, maybe you end up with ginormous babies
01:04:39that aren't being selected against because,
01:04:41and then maybe it causes some other thing.
01:04:43Maybe sex becomes difficult to do
01:04:45because we find out that some sort of selection pressure
01:04:49that birthing was having on women's physiology
01:04:52was in some way enhancing or productive
01:04:55towards the way that their other sexual function went.
01:04:58Like it's a real, you change one thing,
01:05:00it's a butterfly effect, right?
01:05:01You change one thing genetically
01:05:03and the whole house of cards can come down.
01:05:04- Yeah, that's right.
01:05:05Exactly.
01:05:06And so I think because of that,
01:05:08that's why I bring up this one specific challenge
01:05:11that I think we maybe haven't thought through enough yet
01:05:14and that, as you said, could lead to all sorts
01:05:15of other sort of downstream consequences.
01:05:18So, you know, bottom line is we don't know
01:05:22whether human reproduction is in fact possible
01:05:25in the conditions on Mars.
01:05:27So this is one thing I think, you know,
01:05:28it would actually be relatively straightforward
01:05:30to do a lot of research,
01:05:33even in the low earth environment, excuse me,
01:05:36low earth orbit environment that would help us
01:05:39to kind of get a little bit more insight into that.
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01:06:43Will we, okay, how long will speciation take?
01:06:48- Yeah, so, okay.
01:06:50Here's the thing that I will say about that.
01:06:52So speciation, right, formation of new species.
01:06:55This is something, you know,
01:06:56I talk about this in my classes with my students all the time.
01:06:59It's not a black and white thing.
01:07:01Like, oh, now it's a new species, right?
01:07:03We, as biologists, debate constantly all the time
01:07:07about, you know, how to even define a species.
01:07:09Where do you draw the boundaries
01:07:10between one species and another?
01:07:12So partly it depends on that,
01:07:14but that's sort of dodging the question,
01:07:16which is not what I'm trying to do.
01:07:18I think the real question is like,
01:07:20how rapidly would you get individuals on Mars
01:07:24that we would recognize as being distinct from us, right?
01:07:29Like in some recognizable, meaningful way.
01:07:33And what I would say is I think it will happen much faster
01:07:37than what we would expect based on what we normally
01:07:41are used to here on Earth.
01:07:42And it boils down to this.
01:07:45So, you know, we've already talked about how being on Mars
01:07:48is going to make people different, right?
01:07:51Psychologically different, genetically different,
01:07:53culturally different, all of those things.
01:07:55As long as you have people who are moving back and forth
01:07:58between Earth and Mars and able to travel freely between them
01:08:03and basically able to, you know, able to have sex,
01:08:07able to have children, able to reproduce.
01:08:09So if you can kind of move between those environments,
01:08:12that will kind of reduce the differences
01:08:16between those populations, right?
01:08:18Like you're, as long as people are exchanging genes,
01:08:21you don't get speciation happening very easily.
01:08:24So then the question becomes like,
01:08:27well, is that going to be the case?
01:08:29Will it be easy for people to move back and forth
01:08:32between Earth and Mars?
01:08:34And I don't think it will be.
01:08:36I think it will be much harder for people to move back
01:08:38and forth between planets than we maybe have appreciated.
01:08:42And specifically, I mean like people born on Mars.
01:08:46I think even as soon as the first generation of people
01:08:50born on Mars will potentially have a great difficulty
01:08:54with coming back to Earth.
01:08:56For one thing, it's the gravity that we've talked about, right?
01:08:58A child born in a one-third gravity environment
01:09:02is unlikely to build a skeleton that is strong enough
01:09:05to be able to tolerate Earth gravity.
01:09:08And this is, we've been talking about science fiction, right?
01:09:10So like this shows up in, you know,
01:09:12I don't know if you've watched "The Expanse"
01:09:13or read the series, but it's like,
01:09:15that's a theme that comes up is like, you know,
01:09:18the idea that if you're from a lower gravity environment,
01:09:21high G is, you know, gonna be painful if not--
01:09:24- Torturous to you, right? - That's right.
01:09:26Yeah, gravity torture is a concept from "The Expanse."
01:09:29That's one thing. - Should I read that?
01:09:31Is it good?
01:09:32'Cause I watched the first season maybe, season and a half,
01:09:36and then I kind of got a little bit lost in it.
01:09:38Is the book, how do you rate the book?
01:09:40If "Seven Eves" for me is a strong eight,
01:09:43where's "The Expanse?"
01:09:44- All right, here's my admission.
01:09:47So I haven't read it.
01:09:47I've seen the series, but I haven't read the,
01:09:50I haven't read it, so. - Fair enough.
01:09:51- Yeah, my bad.
01:09:53But so, gravity though is something
01:09:57that I think will be a limiting factor,
01:10:00but I think there's an even potentially bigger factor
01:10:03that will keep people from being able
01:10:04to move between planets, and that is microbes,
01:10:08germs, our immune systems.
01:10:10So what happens to the immune system
01:10:12of a child born on Mars?
01:10:14They will only ever be exposed
01:10:16to whatever the microorganisms are that we bring with us.
01:10:21And that's gonna be a tiny fraction, right?
01:10:23I mean, they're going through the same bottleneck.
01:10:25The microbes are going through the same kind of bottleneck.
01:10:27- Oh, fuck, it's a big sterilization procedure
01:10:31for whatever you've brought with you,
01:10:33the peanuts and the wheat and the gluten and the everything.
01:10:36- Yep, yep, yep, exactly.
01:10:38And so now you've got a kid who has never been exposed
01:10:41to the vast majority of what we're breathing in right now,
01:10:44and just all the microbes that are surrounding us.
01:10:47I don't think they would be able to easily come back to Earth
01:10:51without a whole lot of protection.
01:10:52- Have you got a name for this?
01:10:53'Cause this is a unique kind of, it's not speciation,
01:10:58it's a hardcore sort of an adaptation that's occurred
01:11:02due to being separated, where you're no longer able
01:11:06to go back to your original habitat.
01:11:09Is there a name for this?
01:11:10- I don't know that there's a name for this specifically.
01:11:12I mean, I think that though,
01:11:13this is basically the setup for speciation,
01:11:16because what do you do in that situation, right?
01:11:18- You're locked into your new environment.
01:11:20- Yeah, it would be too dangerous for people from Mars
01:11:23to interact with people from Earth.
01:11:25And the other thing that's gonna happen is over time,
01:11:28the microbes on Mars are going to be mutating,
01:11:31adapting, changing.
01:11:33You're gonna get new infectious diseases on Mars
01:11:36that don't exist on Earth.
01:11:37They will evolve uniquely there.
01:11:39Even just the bacteria in our microbiome are gonna change
01:11:43by being on Mars, right?
01:11:45I mean, they're also exposed to a lot of radiation.
01:11:47They've also gone through a population bottleneck.
01:11:50So now it becomes dangerous for people from Earth
01:11:53to interact with people from Mars,
01:11:54'cause they've got germs that we're not used to.
01:11:57So what do you do?
01:11:58I think you enforce quarantine.
01:11:59You don't allow or you very greatly reduce--
01:12:03- Quarantina, yeah.
01:12:04- Exactly, so if you don't have close contact
01:12:09between people from Earth and people from Mars,
01:12:12you are accelerating how fast speciation will happen.
01:12:16- Yeah, because there's no cross, I mean, when is this?
01:12:18- I guess, you know, the Homo Florencius would have had that
01:12:23too because they simply couldn't go back.
01:12:25It wasn't that they didn't choose to go back.
01:12:27It's that they couldn't go back.
01:12:28But that being said, are we really going to be able
01:12:31to get rockets that can do the round trip?
01:12:34That doesn't seem very likely
01:12:35until we start mining stuff on Mars.
01:12:37What, you're gonna have a rocket that's going to be able
01:12:39to take people and all the payload and all of the stuff
01:12:42that's needed out there,
01:12:44and you're going to be able to have enough fuel,
01:12:47I guess getting off at one third Earth's gravity
01:12:49is probably going to be a little easier.
01:12:50- It's a little easier to get off of Mars
01:12:52'cause as you said, it's lower gravity, that's right.
01:12:56And it is conceivable that we can
01:12:59just manufacture rocket fuel there, right?
01:13:01So you can actually take carbon dioxide and split it.
01:13:04You've got oxygen, that's your accelerant.
01:13:08So yeah, so you can potentially make rocket fuel there
01:13:12on Mars and get back.
01:13:14But again, I don't think the challenge
01:13:16is going to be technological.
01:13:18I think it's going to be biological.
01:13:19I think the risk to people of going back and forth
01:13:22and getting sick is going to keep people from doing it.
01:13:24- Well, there's the biological,
01:13:28there's the sort of immunological part here.
01:13:31There's genes, but there's also memes.
01:13:34But what about a changing culture?
01:13:36What do you imagine a culture of Mars would look like?
01:13:38'Cause this is a culture that's going to be forged
01:13:40under scarcity and danger and dependence and darkness, perhaps.
01:13:46It's going to be pretty different.
01:13:48- Yeah, I know.
01:13:49It's, I mean, I think it's probably impossible for us
01:13:53to know, I think other than saying
01:13:54it would be very different, right?
01:13:56So yeah, I think it would have to be self-contained
01:13:59because there's not going to be as much interaction
01:14:01because of the communication delays.
01:14:03So I think it would be a unique thing.
01:14:05And humans have done this type of thing over and over again.
01:14:08We reinvent ourselves, a culture rapidly changes
01:14:12when we have people that go off to a new place,
01:14:17even just for short periods of time.
01:14:19I'm thinking about like, you go on a trip with somebody
01:14:22and you come back with inside jokes, right?
01:14:24You know, it happens fast.
01:14:26But yeah, I think people would be culturally different
01:14:29quite rapidly if they're living on Mars.
01:14:31- Dude, it's so fascinating.
01:14:37The fact that this is my job,
01:14:38that I get to speak to you and call this a job
01:14:40is absolutely mind-blowing.
01:14:41This is so interesting to me.
01:14:43Okay, but I guess the cultural evolution thing
01:14:46is going to feed back into the biological evolution.
01:14:49So you're tightening this divergence loop.
01:14:51You've got the concerns from the biome,
01:14:55the concerns about getting infected.
01:14:58I guess, what are the interesting ethical challenges
01:15:03that we've got here?
01:15:05- Well, there's some pretty serious ones.
01:15:09I mean, here's the thing,
01:15:10like you and I could decide that we're comfortable
01:15:14with the risk of going to Mars, right?
01:15:16And there are plenty of people who I've spoken with
01:15:19who are like, yep, I would absolutely sign up to go.
01:15:21- Is it fair to condemn the future progeny?
01:15:23- Yeah, exactly.
01:15:24What happens when you're talking about bringing a child
01:15:26into the world who not only is living
01:15:29in a very dangerous environment,
01:15:32but they might not ever be able to go back to earth.
01:15:35That to me is a totally different level of effort.
01:15:40That's an ethical consideration.
01:15:42So one thing we haven't really talked about
01:15:44is the idea that, well, rather than just sort of
01:15:46let natural selection, let evolution do its thing,
01:15:50maybe what we would do is take matters into our own hands
01:15:54and use CRISPR, use biological
01:15:59and genetic engineering techniques to facilitate,
01:16:03to make it easier for people to deal
01:16:05with the extreme conditions there.
01:16:08And obviously there's important ethical considerations
01:16:11about altering our genetics,
01:16:14especially if you're talking about altering
01:16:17unborn children, future generations.
01:16:19But in some ways though, the ethics are sort of
01:16:23maybe reversed compared to how we would think
01:16:25about this on earth.
01:16:26Because if you had the ability to alleviate suffering
01:16:31of an unborn child or of future generations,
01:16:35and if you didn't do that, is that ethical?
01:16:38- This is the entire argument that is put forward
01:16:40by the embryo selection crowd,
01:16:42which is as soon as you say that protecting against
01:16:45something that's really horrendous,
01:16:48some genetic defect that would cause you to be in pain
01:16:53or not live a flourishing life or whatever,
01:16:55even myopia, right?
01:16:57Even if you were to say, we're able to select against
01:17:00people that don't have good eyesight.
01:17:02If you had, why do you think that lasik and glasses exist?
01:17:05Because people want those traits.
01:17:08So if you have the opportunity to select against
01:17:09negative ones, you immediately open up the door for,
01:17:12it's a single parallel, it's a single spectrum
01:17:15from select against negative traits
01:17:17to select for positive traits.
01:17:19And that does seem the ethical thing to do.
01:17:21Now, as soon as you get into genetic enhancement,
01:17:25that becomes a very different game.
01:17:27To me, ethically, as of yet, I haven't,
01:17:30I'm convinced on the value of embryo selection.
01:17:33Herocyte is wonderful company that's doing great things
01:17:36in the space that Johnny that runs it is just spectacular.
01:17:39I'm yet to hear an argument for genetic enhancement
01:17:45that doesn't make my toes curl underneath.
01:17:48- Well, and part of it I think is because the question is,
01:17:51okay, you're arguing that this person's life
01:17:53is going to be better, but are there other ways
01:17:56that you could make that person's life better
01:17:58without making a genetic alteration, right?
01:18:01Without making such a permanent change.
01:18:04And so I think any of the potential changes
01:18:08that we might make for a person here on earth,
01:18:11in most cases, we have other ways of protecting them
01:18:15from that risk or improving their lives
01:18:18in that particular way.
01:18:20For a child born on Mars,
01:18:22thinking about the gravity environment
01:18:23or the radiation environment, right?
01:18:26There might not be any better way of doing it.
01:18:28So if that's the case, and if they don't have a choice,
01:18:30if that's the only place that they can live,
01:18:33I think it might be different.
01:18:34Now, I'm not saying that we definitely should do that,
01:18:36but I think that the ethics are, I think,
01:18:39somewhat distinct when you're talking about, you know,
01:18:42having a situation where people don't have the option
01:18:45of getting out of that situation, right?
01:18:48You don't have a way to get away from the risk.
01:18:51But, you know--
01:18:53- So there's multiple levels of ethics here.
01:18:54Is it ethical to condemn your future generations
01:18:57and progeny to live on this environment,
01:18:59which is going to be really inhospitable
01:19:01and they've got to be underground,
01:19:02and maybe they're going to flourish less?
01:19:04Well, as soon as you do that,
01:19:07is it now incumbent on you
01:19:08to start manipulating their genomes
01:19:10so that they can survive this prison
01:19:13that you had put them into more effectively than if they,
01:19:16you know, it's a real domino.
01:19:19- Well, and then there's the added on top of that
01:19:22is the possibility that by making those changes,
01:19:26you might be improving their ability
01:19:28to thrive in that environment,
01:19:30but you might simultaneously--
01:19:32- Condemn them from being able to go back home.
01:19:33- Exactly. - Oh, dude, it's a mess.
01:19:35It's such a mess.
01:19:37Oh, my Lord.
01:19:38What are you supposed to do?
01:19:40- There's a lot of things, well, you know,
01:19:42we don't have to go.
01:19:43- Well, then we're condemning ourselves
01:19:46to being single planetary species
01:19:47and we just need one neutron star
01:19:50to go off at the wrong angle and then we're done for.
01:19:52- So, I mean, this is the question
01:19:54that I ultimately wrestled with
01:19:55in researching and writing this book is, you know,
01:19:59I wanted to really understand what would happen, right?
01:20:02What would be, if we go down this route
01:20:04of people living beyond Earth,
01:20:07what should we expect will happen to those people
01:20:10in future generations?
01:20:11That's what the book's all about.
01:20:12But throughout this, I sort of really struggled with like,
01:20:15okay, given what we know,
01:20:18is this a path we should be pursuing?
01:20:20Like, is this the right thing to do?
01:20:22And you're making a good point that like,
01:20:25in the long run, we might have to
01:20:28because we've got all our eggs
01:20:29in one, you know, planetary basket here.
01:20:32So that's risky.
01:20:35But the next question is, when?
01:20:38What's the timeframe for this, right?
01:20:41And so to me, it's not that we should never go.
01:20:44I think eventually, if we didn't do that,
01:20:47we would be dooming ourselves to extinction.
01:20:51It's a matter of how quickly should we be pushing this?
01:20:54And so, you know, people differ, I think,
01:20:59if you ask them about like, how urgent,
01:21:01how pressing a need is this?
01:21:03Personally, I think we need to have answers
01:21:07to some of these unanswered questions like reproduction,
01:21:09right, what happens to, you know, a child conceived
01:21:13and born and raised in a one third gravity
01:21:15high radiation environment?
01:21:17I don't think it makes sense for us to go there
01:21:19until we really have good answers
01:21:21to those types of questions.
01:21:24But the ethical things, the politics,
01:21:26the psychology that we've been talking about,
01:21:27all of these are things we should be studying this, right?
01:21:30Like we need to know, and the technology is advancing,
01:21:34the rockets are flying.
01:21:37Let's do the experiments and research
01:21:40that we need to, you know, to answer these questions
01:21:44that, you know, is more life sciences, more biology,
01:21:47more, you know, psychology, microbiology,
01:21:49all these cool things, yeah.
01:21:51- Scott Solomon, ladies and gentlemen.
01:21:52Dude, you are spectacular, you are so fun.
01:21:56I think-- - Thanks, this has been great.
01:21:58- What an awesome topic to talk about.
01:22:00Where should people go?
01:22:01They're gonna wanna check out everything you're doing
01:22:03by the book, all the rest of it?
01:22:05- Yeah, yeah, so I mean, the book is available now.
01:22:08It's "Becoming Martian" and MIT Press.
01:22:12So yeah, you know, check it out.
01:22:14We did a streaming series too.
01:22:16It's also called "Becoming Martian."
01:22:17That's on CuriosityStream, which was a lot of fun.
01:22:21But I've also got a podcast.
01:22:23My podcast is called "Wild World" and it's all about
01:22:26field work and exploration right here on Earth.
01:22:29So yeah, check that out too.
01:22:31- Heck yeah.
01:22:32Scott, I appreciate you, man, until next time.
01:22:34- Thank you so much, this has been so much fun.
01:22:36- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:22:39Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:22:41by the internet just yet.
01:22:43Here's another one that you should watch.
01:22:46Go on.

Key Takeaway

Human colonization of Mars will inevitably lead to the birth of a new, genetically and culturally distinct species due to extreme environmental pressures, isolation, and technological mediation of biology.

Highlights

NASA's CHAPEA experiment and Mars analogs simulate the psychological and physical challenges of living on a Martian settlement for long durations.

The 'Island Rule' in evolutionary biology suggests that isolated populations, like those on Mars, will experience rapid biological divergence and size changes.

Prolonged space travel causes significant physiological damage, including reduced bone density, muscle atrophy, and 'space brain' due to radiation exposure.

Mars settlements will likely be underground to protect inhabitants from extreme galactic cosmic radiation and frequent meteor impacts.

Human reproduction in low-gravity environments remains a massive 'black box' with potential risks like fatal bone fractures during childbirth.

The 'Founder Effect' implies that the small, specific group of people chosen to colonize Mars will have a disproportionate genetic impact on all future Martians.

Immunological isolation could lead to the evolution of unique Martian microbes, making future contact between Earth and Mars biologically dangerous.

Timeline

Mars Simulation and Analog Studies

Scott Solomon discusses NASA's CHAPEA experiment, a 3D-printed Mars habitat simulation located at the Johnson Space Center in Houston. These studies, known as analogs, help researchers understand the psychological toll of living in confined spaces with limited resources and crew interactions. While they cannot replicate Mars's one-third gravity or high radiation, they provide vital data on how a crew of four can survive a full year of isolation. Solomon also mentions the Mars Desert Research Station in Utah as another key facility for testing these settlement technologies. These simulations are essential for preparing humans for the reality of being 'stuck' with a small group for extended periods.

Evolutionary Biology and the Island Rule

As an evolutionary biologist, Solomon argues that long-term settlement on Mars will inevitably lead to evolutionary change through multiple generations. He illustrates this using the example of Homo floresiensis, the 'hobbit' humans found on the island of Flores in Indonesia. This species evolved to be much smaller due to restricted caloric resources, a phenomenon known as the 'Island Rule'. Interestingly, islands can also produce giants, such as giant tortoises or the Komodo dragon, showing that isolation forces radical size adjustments. This historical divergence serves as a blueprint for what might happen to humans isolated on the 'island' of Mars.

The First Human Biological Divergence

The discussion shifts to the cultural and biological impact of meeting different hominid species, which was a reality for most of human history. Solomon points out that settling Mars would be the first time humans knowingly place themselves in an environment guaranteed to cause biological divergence. Unlike extreme environments on Earth like Antarctica, Mars lacks breathable oxygen and has pressure so low that human blood would boil without protection. This unprecedented level of environmental extremity makes Martian settlement a unique event in the history of life. The speakers reflect on how our species' history of interacting with other humans like Neanderthals might repeat in a space-age context.

Physiological Toll of Spaceflight

Space travel inflicts immediate and severe changes on the human body, primarily due to weightlessness and radiation. Muscles atrophy and bones become brittle as the body reabsorbs minerals like calcium because they are no longer being strained by gravity. Fluid redistribution leads to 'space face' (puffiness) and 'chicken legs', while the brain suffers from 'space fog' due to galactic cosmic rays. Radiation beyond Earth's magnetosphere poses a high risk of cancer and cognitive decline, which NASA manages by limiting astronaut exposure time. Solomon explains that even a six-to-nine-month journey to Mars would result in significant deconditioning before the travelers even land.

The Van Allen Belts and Martian Physics

Solomon explains the discovery of the Van Allen radiation belts, which are regions of intense radiation trapped by Earth's magnetic field. While these belts protect the Earth, they represent a major hurdle for deep-space travelers who must pass through them and then survive without such protection on Mars. Upon arrival, the transition from weightlessness to Mars's one-third gravity will be physically punishing for weakened skeletons. Astronauts will likely need robotic assistance or exoskeletons to move effectively after months of bone density loss. This section emphasizes that the global effects of gravity on the circulatory and lymphatic systems cannot be easily replicated by simple gym equipment.

Diet, Mutation, and Selection Bottlenecks

The challenges of long-term survival include a restricted diet of shelf-stable food and the psychological need for fresh produce, illustrated by the story of a 'contraband onion' in a Russian space station. High radiation on Mars will likely increase the mutation rate in human DNA, which acts as the raw material for evolution but also causes significant suffering and 'errors' in the short term. Solomon introduces the concept of the 'Founder Effect', where a small group of colonists creates a genetic bottleneck. This means the specific traits of the first few hundred settlers will disproportionately define the genetics of the future Martian population. This reduction in diversity can lead to rapid, often unpredictable evolutionary changes over just a few generations.

Social Dynamics and The Right Stuff

Selecting the right people for Mars is a complex task that goes beyond the 'military pilot' archetype used in early NASA missions. Solomon argues that we need a genetically and psychologically diverse group to ensure long-term population health and adaptability. In isolated environments like Antarctica, the most successful individuals are team players with high emotional intelligence rather than purely 'Type A' personalities. An interesting technical detail mentioned is the preference for odd-numbered crews to provide a natural tie-breaker in decision-making and prevent factional splits. To avoid a genetic bottleneck that leads to failure, the base of the Martian 'pyramid' must be as broad and diverse as possible.

Governance and the Overview Effect

Governing a Martian colony is complicated by the 20-minute communication delay with Earth, making direct oversight from home governments nearly impossible. Solomon suggests that Martian colonists must have their own leaders with 'skin in the game' to handle local crises and legal issues like crime. While astronauts often experience the 'Overview Effect'—a profound sense of global unity and fragility when seeing Earth from space—this may not translate to children born on Mars. Just as immigrant identities fade over generations, Martian-born humans will eventually view Mars, not Earth, as their primary home and identity. This shift in perspective will fundamentally change how Martian society interacts with its 'mother planet'.

Life Underground and the Future of the Mind

Practical Martian settlements will likely be underground to provide natural shielding against radiation and meteorites, which bypass Mars's thin atmosphere. Living in permanent darkness or artificial light will have unknown psychological and physiological effects, potentially altering human vision and spatial awareness. Humans have an innate connection to nature, known as biophilia, and the total lack of wildlife or forests on Mars could be psychologically destructive. Solomon warns that while physical ailments are bounded, psychological instability in a closed ecosystem could have a 'domino effect' leading to catastrophe. This permanent subterranean existence would create a human experience completely unrecognizable to those living on Earth's surface.

The Black Box of Space Reproduction

Reproduction is perhaps the greatest unknown in space colonization, as there is almost no data on human pregnancy in low gravity. Solomon highlights the risk that a woman raised in Martian gravity might suffer a fatal pelvic fracture during childbirth due to lifelong low bone density. This could lead to a society where all births are done via C-section, which in turn removes the evolutionary constraint on baby head size. Furthermore, Martian-born children would lack the immune systems to ever visit Earth, as they would be unexposed to Earth's diverse microbes. This immunological barrier, combined with potential genetic engineering via CRISPR to alleviate suffering, creates a permanent divide between Earthlings and Martians.

Ethical Dilemmas and Survival

The ethical implications of Mars colonization are profound, particularly regarding the rights of future generations who did not choose to be born in such a harsh environment. Solomon questions whether it is ethical to use genetic enhancement to help children survive Mars if those very changes permanently exile them from Earth. However, not going to Mars also carries the risk of total extinction if a catastrophic event hits our single-planet home. He suggests that while we must eventually become a multi-planetary species, we shouldn't rush the process until we have better biological answers. The conversation concludes with a call for more research into the life sciences to match our rapidly advancing rocket technology.

Conclusion and Resources

In the final segment, Solomon promotes his book 'Becoming Martian' and his podcast 'Wild World', which explore these themes of exploration and evolution. He reiterates that the path to Mars is not just a technological challenge but a biological journey that will redefine what it means to be human. The host and guest agree that the topic is endlessly fascinating and represents the next great chapter in human history. They emphasize the importance of understanding our own biology before we attempt to transplant it to another world. The episode ends with a reminder of the fragility and uniqueness of our current evolutionary state on Earth.

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