00:00:00- What's the NASA Chapier experiment?
00:00:03It's just hit the 100 day mark.
00:00:06- Yeah, it has, yeah.
00:00:07So this is basically a, it's a simulation.
00:00:11It's a way of trying to understand
00:00:13what life would actually be like for people living on Mars.
00:00:17And the way that they're doing this is by,
00:00:19they've created a mock-up of a space settlement
00:00:24and they've built it in Johnson Space Center in Houston.
00:00:29So just down the street from me here, really.
00:00:32And it's built to be kind of like what they think
00:00:36it would actually be like on Mars, right?
00:00:39So they actually 3D printed it,
00:00:41which is one of the technologies that has been suggested
00:00:44for how we might build structures on Mars.
00:00:48And then a group of, I believe it's four,
00:00:51a crew of four people have entered it
00:00:54and they are living inside it.
00:00:57As you said, for a hundred days so far,
00:00:59but the plan is for it to last a full year.
00:01:02So this is kind of like a thing that people do
00:01:06when they're trying to understand what different aspects
00:01:10of space settlement might actually be like
00:01:12is they create what are called analogs.
00:01:14Basically a model that sort of replicates some aspect
00:01:19of a space environment, a space settlement in this case.
00:01:23And then they put people inside and try to sort of
00:01:27understand what happens.
00:01:29So this is the second one that they've done.
00:01:31They did a full year already.
00:01:34And this is the second full year study of people inside
00:01:39this kind of mock-up of a Mars habitat.
00:01:44- How much do you think they're testing physiological change
00:01:49versus psychological change?
00:01:51- Yeah, I think a lot of what these analog studies
00:01:56try to get at and is true of this study as well
00:02:00is the psychology.
00:02:01Because of course they can't replicate a lot of
00:02:03the physical conditions of being on Mars.
00:02:07There's one third the Earth's gravity, right?
00:02:09They're not simulating that.
00:02:12There's probably gonna be a lot higher radiation exposure
00:02:15in a Mars habitat and they're not simulating that.
00:02:18(coughs)
00:02:20Excuse me.
00:02:21So some of the things that they can simulate
00:02:23are of course being in a confined space,
00:02:26being in a area where you're limited
00:02:31to what you brought with you.
00:02:33They're not able to kind of come and go
00:02:36and they're not able to bring new materials
00:02:38and supplies in or out.
00:02:41And another big part of it is sort of the interaction
00:02:46between the crew members.
00:02:47So what is it like to be more or less stuck
00:02:50with just the other three folks that you brought with you
00:02:54for an extended time period?
00:02:56- It's the most boring episode of "Love Island" ever filmed
00:02:58but it lasts for an entire 12 months.
00:03:01- I really think they could make some reality TV shows
00:03:04out of these analogs because there's quite a few
00:03:07of these types of things that are in different places.
00:03:09I went and visited one of them actually
00:03:12when I was researching my first book
00:03:14which just touched on the idea of how we might change
00:03:18in space and that was out in Utah.
00:03:21It's called the Mars Desert Research Station
00:03:24and a remote facility in a place in the desert
00:03:27that really kind of looks like Mars.
00:03:30And so I went out there and visited a crew
00:03:32that had just begun a simulation
00:03:34and it was fascinating to see kind of what they're doing
00:03:37and the ways that they try to kind of make it feel realistic
00:03:40and the kind of things that they try to learn.
00:03:42And there's a whole bunch of these.
00:03:44- How much is space exploration an evolutionary event
00:03:47versus a technological one?
00:03:50- Well, that's really the thing that I'm most interested in.
00:03:54So my background, I'm an evolutionary biologist, right?
00:03:56And so the thing that got me most interested in this topic
00:04:00of like how will people be affected by being in space
00:04:05is the question of would making a long-term settlement
00:04:10on Mars or anywhere else lead to evolutionary change?
00:04:15From my perspective, I think it's inevitable.
00:04:18I think basically if you are creating a situation
00:04:22where people are not just going and coming back
00:04:25but they're going to live there.
00:04:27In other words, they're moving there,
00:04:29that's where their lives are.
00:04:30And most importantly, they're having families there.
00:04:32They're raising children there.
00:04:34Once you start talking about a multiple generation,
00:04:38generational presence on another world,
00:04:42we should expect evolutionary change.
00:04:45That's how evolution works, right?
00:04:47- Well, migration in the past has caused divergence, right?
00:04:52What was that Homo floresiensis?
00:04:57- Floresiensis, yeah, yeah.
00:04:58- Floresiensis, the pygmy people.
00:05:02So you're an evolutionary biologist.
00:05:04I've been telling this story on the show for ages.
00:05:06Can you tell me if this is true or not?
00:05:07So I'd heard they were Indonesia, right?
00:05:11- Yeah, that's right.
00:05:12We've come to Flores, which is today part of Indonesia.
00:05:15- So Indonesia, if anyone looks at it on a map,
00:05:17it's kind of like someone's thrown crumbs over a table.
00:05:20It's very broken up.
00:05:21And what it seemed like was a particular hominid,
00:05:25Homo previous species got split off.
00:05:27And the island that they were on was very, very restricted
00:05:30in terms of the calories that they could consume,
00:05:34in terms of the resources.
00:05:35So that meant that over time,
00:05:37the smallest humans were the ones that were selected
00:05:39to survive because they needed the fewest calories.
00:05:42Then one of the, the story that I've always told
00:05:45is this restriction in resources
00:05:48wasn't just affecting the humans,
00:05:50but it was affecting all of the other species as well.
00:05:52So there are sites of tiny three feet, four feet high humans
00:05:57carrying tiny spears, chasing tiny elephants or mammoths.
00:06:04So all of the creatures had been diminutized
00:06:09down to this tiny little level
00:06:11because they were all on this little island.
00:06:12Is that bullshit or am I right?
00:06:14- Well, that is one of the ways that we think about it.
00:06:17And you've got a lot of the story correct there.
00:06:19So you're absolutely right that basically
00:06:21what people have found are the skeletal remains
00:06:24inside of a cave on this island of Flores
00:06:27of these very short statured, small bodied hominids.
00:06:32The structure of their bones shows us
00:06:35that they were different from any other species
00:06:37that we know about anywhere else in the world
00:06:39that's ever been found.
00:06:40They've only ever been found from this one island.
00:06:42So based on that,
00:06:43we assume they were restricted to the island.
00:06:45Somebody could later find them somewhere else
00:06:48and that would change the story.
00:06:48But for now, you're absolutely right
00:06:50that our understanding is they only lived on this island.
00:06:53And because they're such short bodied hominids,
00:06:58it's very different from pretty much any other species.
00:07:02I'll tell you the actual twist to that in just a moment.
00:07:05But yeah, we think what may have happened
00:07:08is that their ancestors made it there somehow.
00:07:11They were stranded on this island
00:07:13and basically they evolved to be shorter.
00:07:16And as you pointed out,
00:07:17they're not the only species that evolved to be smaller.
00:07:20We actually know that this is a common phenomenon
00:07:24that happens to species that are isolated on islands
00:07:28is that they change size.
00:07:30So there's all over the world,
00:07:32there's all of these examples of these miniature species
00:07:36that live on islands.
00:07:37And elephants are actually a good example.
00:07:39There's small bodied fossil mammoths
00:07:42and other elephant relatives on islands
00:07:44like in the Mediterranean and elsewhere in Asia.
00:07:47So that definitely is something that happens on islands.
00:07:52But there's more to it, which is actually fascinating
00:07:55because on that same island of Flores,
00:07:57not only were there other small bodied species,
00:08:00but there were actually giants too.
00:08:02So the Komodo dragon from Australia,
00:08:05this is, sorry, not from Australia,
00:08:07from Komodo is actually near the island of Flores.
00:08:10So there were species that were closely related
00:08:14to Komodo dragons, but were enormous.
00:08:17These absolutely giant lizards.
00:08:20I mean, really like a real dragon on that same island
00:08:24at the same time as Homo floresiensis.
00:08:27And that's the thing that happens on islands
00:08:29is a lot of times they'll get smaller,
00:08:32but sometimes they'll get much bigger.
00:08:34Think about giant tortoises like in the Galapagos islands.
00:08:38So we call this the island rule.
00:08:41And the idea is like things change size.
00:08:43They either get much bigger or much smaller.
00:08:46And that seems to be true of hominids,
00:08:49which are basically humans or human-like species as well.
00:08:53And I promised I would give you the twist.
00:08:56So there is actually, since that discovery,
00:08:59there was another discovery of another hominid
00:09:03also small-bodied on an island in the Philippines.
00:09:07And it's a different species.
00:09:09It's Homo-- - No way!
00:09:10- Yeah, Homo lusinensis now, Luzon.
00:09:13And so--
00:09:14- Same effect, but a different speciation.
00:09:18- That's the interpretation.
00:09:19We think that this is like yet another instance
00:09:22where some type of hominid goes isolated and became smaller.
00:09:26- Wasn't the Flores man, they were still alive,
00:09:30like 10,000 BC, 12,000 BC, I think.
00:09:34- So the initial dates when those fossils
00:09:36were first discovered were that they survived
00:09:39up until very recently by like historical,
00:09:43not historical, by evolutionary standards,
00:09:46by sort of the geological timescale
00:09:47that we scientists are used to.
00:09:50Those dates have since been pushed back a bit
00:09:54as they've gotten more evidence.
00:09:55So still quite recently, I think it,
00:09:58I want to say it's something like 50,000 years
00:10:01is now when they think they finally disappeared.
00:10:05But the thing is about that,
00:10:06that that still means that they probably overlapped
00:10:09with our species, with Homo sapiens, right?
00:10:12So like the first Homo sapiens were arriving in that area
00:10:16right around the time that Homo floresiensis disappears.
00:10:21- Wow. - So coincidence, you know?
00:10:25- Dude, I mean, we've always thought about this, right?
00:10:27Like everyone's thought,
00:10:29what would it be like to meet an alien?
00:10:32We don't look at any other species and think,
00:10:36oh, they're just like us.
00:10:38I think they're a bit like us.
00:10:39Look at a chimpanzee, look at apes, they're a little bit,
00:10:44I went to the Bwindi impenetrable forest,
00:10:47which is shockingly penetrable, actually.
00:10:50- Yeah. - It's a tourist destination.
00:10:53- I've been there as well.
00:10:53My wife and I went there.
00:10:55- Did you do the silverback gorilla tracking thing?
00:10:57- We did.
00:10:58One of the most amazing experiences I've ever had.
00:10:59- It was, I did the same thing as you
00:11:02and I'm five yards, four yards away
00:11:05from this thousand pound monster.
00:11:09And you think, wow, it's so much like us, right?
00:11:13But it's not, you know it's not, you know it's not us.
00:11:15I wonder what, I wonder what would have happened culturally
00:11:20if we did have a different hominid species
00:11:24still floating around.
00:11:25Are they us or are they other?
00:11:28Would we have more kin protection over them
00:11:31or something else?
00:11:32But anyway, I--
00:11:33- I think about this all the time.
00:11:34I agree with you.
00:11:35It is, because we're used to, as you said,
00:11:37we're used to a world where the closest thing to us
00:11:40is still-- - Is very different.
00:11:41- Is pretty different. - Yep, yep.
00:11:42- There's, you know, and that is not the way
00:11:46the world has been for the vast majority
00:11:48of our species history.
00:11:50For most of our species history,
00:11:52there were multiple types of human on this planet
00:11:55and we interacted with them.
00:11:57- Perhaps at varying degrees of peacefulness, we'll see.
00:12:01So this is the first time, if this is the case,
00:12:03if we go to Mars, if we settle Mars as humans,
00:12:07this will be the first time in history
00:12:10that a species will knowingly place itself
00:12:13in an environment that almost guarantees
00:12:15biological divergence?
00:12:17- Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.
00:12:19I mean, you know, you can think about how our species
00:12:22has gone to extreme places on Earth throughout history,
00:12:26right, Antarctica, the bottom of the ocean,
00:12:28these kinds of, you know, very high mountains,
00:12:31but we generally didn't go there to stay, right?
00:12:34There's nobody that is living on Antarctica,
00:12:37like raising their kids there and these kinds of things.
00:12:40And even in those extreme environments,
00:12:43what we think of as extreme, you know,
00:12:46you can be in Antarctica and it's very cold,
00:12:48don't get me wrong, but you could still walk outside
00:12:50and breathe oxygen, right?
00:12:53Your blood doesn't boil if there's a leak in your habitat
00:12:57the way it would on Mars.
00:12:59So we're talking about a very different level of extreme
00:13:04when we talk about how extreme the environment is on Mars.
00:13:06So yeah, I think you're right.
00:13:07I think that it would be the first time
00:13:09that we would be knowingly putting ourselves
00:13:13in that extreme of an environment
00:13:15and trying to actually live there.
00:13:17- Okay, before we even get to Mars,
00:13:20what happens during space flight?
00:13:21- Yeah, so, you know, it's funny
00:13:25'cause we haven't been flying in space for that long, right?
00:13:27Like, you know, we've got what?
00:13:29It's like 70 years of history of human space.
00:13:32- We're already looking past it.
00:13:34We're already thinking, ah, we've, you know,
00:13:36space, we've got that, that's in the bag, what's next?
00:13:38- Yeah, and you know, in the early days,
00:13:40like we had no idea, like literally people thought
00:13:42like your eyes might pop out of your head
00:13:44if you go into space, like that was a question.
00:13:46Could you swallow?
00:13:46These were unanswered questions when people first
00:13:50went to space, but we've learned a time.
00:13:51Like we know quite a bit now about if you were to,
00:13:55you know, get on a rocket, fly up to space,
00:13:58spend, you know, a couple of days there and come back.
00:14:01You know, we could tell you with a lot of certainty
00:14:03kind of what is likely to happen to your body.
00:14:06And we know that like the main effects
00:14:07are the change in gravity, right?
00:14:09You're in a weightless environment typically
00:14:11when you're in space and that does a lot to your body.
00:14:16It causes your muscles to weaken
00:14:18'cause they don't have to work as hard, right?
00:14:20Especially like in your lower body, your back.
00:14:22And because your muscles aren't working as hard,
00:14:27your bones basically respond to muscle.
00:14:31And so they start to kind of break down.
00:14:34Like they basically will start to absorb,
00:14:36the body will absorb some of the minerals, right?
00:14:39The calcium and the potassium that makes up your bones.
00:14:43- Is that just because they're not being strained?
00:14:46Is this kind of like atrophy for the muscles,
00:14:48but for the structure?
00:14:50- Exactly.
00:14:51And actually one of the ways that people have studied
00:14:53the effects of prolonged space flight
00:14:55is through bed rest studies.
00:14:56So just by not moving your body much,
00:14:59it's not a perfect replica,
00:15:01but it does simulate some of the ways
00:15:04in which being in a lower gravity environment
00:15:06impacts the body, the circulatory system, right?
00:15:09Your heart's not having to pump as much to get blood
00:15:12through the entire body.
00:15:13To get blood up to your brain,
00:15:16you gotta work against gravity here,
00:15:17but in space you don't.
00:15:19So we know a lot about that.
00:15:21We know that the fluids in your body actually,
00:15:25not just the blood,
00:15:27but all of your body fluids start to be redistributed
00:15:29because gravity normally pushes them down
00:15:32towards your lower body.
00:15:33So if you look at pictures of astronauts in space,
00:15:36you probably can tell, especially at first,
00:15:39their faces look kind of puffy.
00:15:40- Moon face.
00:15:41- Yeah.
00:15:42- Space face, they've got space face.
00:15:44- They have space face
00:15:44and they have what they call chicken legs, right?
00:15:46'Cause their legs look super skinny
00:15:48because they've lost all this fluid.
00:15:49So they look a little silly, at least at first.
00:15:52- Hang on, just on that at first,
00:15:54does that mean that the body somehow reaches
00:15:56a new kind of equilibrium?
00:15:58So I'm gonna guess a lot of this is kind of what,
00:16:00glymphatic, glymphatic clearance stuff?
00:16:03- That's right.
00:16:04- Right.
00:16:04- Yeah, so now that we've had people
00:16:07that have stayed for longer flights,
00:16:10you know, up to a year and even a bit longer,
00:16:12we have been able to see that like,
00:16:14yeah, there are ways in which some of the systems
00:16:16in the body have like an initial adjustment period
00:16:20and then they start to kind of reach a plateau
00:16:24or they start to kind of return to normal.
00:16:26You know, like the body,
00:16:27when it has all of this extra fluid in the head
00:16:31or more fluid than you're used to having in the head,
00:16:33your body interprets that as too much fluid.
00:16:36And so one of the things that the body does
00:16:39is it starts to reduce the amount of plasma in your blood.
00:16:44And so you're actually losing blood volume
00:16:49by being in space for a longer period of time.
00:16:52And you start to reduce the production of red blood cells
00:16:56because your body's thinking, I don't need so much blood.
00:16:59And so astronauts often come back from space anemic
00:17:03and that has other health implications as you know.
00:17:07So that is something that is like an adjustment
00:17:11that the body makes.
00:17:12And then when you come back to earth,
00:17:12you go through yet another adjustment.
00:17:15And that's just gravity.
00:17:17There's also radiation, right?
00:17:19So that's something that is going to be really important
00:17:24for thinking about deep space,
00:17:28because actually what we know about how radiation
00:17:31affects astronauts is mostly from how astronauts
00:17:35are affected by being in low earth orbit.
00:17:38So the International Space Station is in low earth orbit.
00:17:41It's orbiting the earth, but it's close enough to the earth
00:17:45that it's actually still inside the magnetic field
00:17:50that is surrounding our planet,
00:17:51which extends out quite far into space.
00:17:54And so that magnetic field actually traps a lot
00:17:57of the space radiation and prevents it
00:17:59from getting closer to the earth.
00:18:01So astronauts on the International Space Station
00:18:04aren't exposed to as much radiation as astronauts
00:18:07on the moon, on Mars, or traveling anywhere
00:18:10beyond the limits of that magnetic field, magnetosphere.
00:18:13Those are called the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:18:17And interesting story how they were discovered.
00:18:19I talk about that in my book, but you know, yeah,
00:18:22we know that that radiation affects the body, right?
00:18:26I mean, the thing that you typically think about is cancer.
00:18:29And the cancer risk for anybody traveling in space
00:18:33is certainly higher.
00:18:35It's one of the reasons that NASA limits the amount of time
00:18:39that astronauts are able to go to space.
00:18:42Astronauts essentially will kind of time out
00:18:45at a certain point if they have reached a radiation exposure
00:18:49that NASA deems to be too risky.
00:18:53And so that's a known risk, but we also know
00:19:01that there's things other than cancer that radiation does.
00:19:06So radiation can have cognitive effects.
00:19:09There's some really interesting research
00:19:11that looks at simulated space radiation
00:19:15and tries to understand what does this do
00:19:19to our nervous system, right?
00:19:22And research on rodents, for example,
00:19:24shows that if they're exposed to simulated space radiation,
00:19:29they actually have slower responses to tasks
00:19:32that they've been taught how to do.
00:19:34That's pretty concerning for anybody planning
00:19:37on going deeper into space.
00:19:40- Quick thinking, trying to problem solve,
00:19:42fix whatever this pipe is that's just broken.
00:19:45Oh, hang on, the environment has made me stupid.
00:19:48- Yeah, I mean, there's a thing that people call,
00:19:51astronauts call space fog or space brain sometimes.
00:19:55- Space face and space brain.
00:19:57- There you go, yeah, exactly.
00:19:59And it's sort of like you're just kinda a little bit,
00:20:02a little out of it, a little slower to respond to tasks
00:20:06that you would otherwise be able to do quickly.
00:20:08And they can adjust, but if that is something
00:20:12that gets worse with more radiation exposure,
00:20:15that's important for us to know
00:20:16if we're gonna spend more time in deep space.
00:20:19- How reversible are these?
00:20:21- We don't know.
00:20:22So partly it's because the amount of radiation
00:20:26that those astronauts have been exposed to,
00:20:28as I said, isn't as great.
00:20:30It's actually a different type of radiation even then.
00:20:33So there's what's called these galactic cosmic rays
00:20:35that are out in space.
00:20:36This is radiation zipping around from other galaxies,
00:20:40and it's largely trapped by our magnetic field.
00:20:44So once you get out to the moon, to Mars,
00:20:47any place that we might wanna travel
00:20:49that goes beyond low earth orbit,
00:20:52we're talking about a lot more radiation exposure.
00:20:55We just simply don't know what that will do to people,
00:20:58or especially if they're being exposed to it
00:21:00for a much longer period of time.
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00:21:45What was that story about how the Van Allen?
00:21:50- Yeah, the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:21:53So, you know, it starts with basically trying to figure out
00:21:56like, you know, where is radiation coming from?
00:21:58We can detect on the surface of the earth
00:22:00that there's, you know, some radiation.
00:22:03And the initial experiments were actually done
00:22:05by putting radiation detectors on hot air balloons
00:22:08and allowing those balloons to go higher and higher.
00:22:11And the surprising thing was that the radiation exposure
00:22:14increased as they got higher and higher in the atmosphere.
00:22:17So at first people thought like,
00:22:19the radiation's probably coming from earth,
00:22:21maybe from the center of the earth.
00:22:23No, it's coming from somewhere up high.
00:22:26And you know, even maybe it's the sun, right?
00:22:29Well, if it's the sun, then those exposures
00:22:32should be higher during daytime than during nighttime.
00:22:35And it wasn't.
00:22:37They even measured it during an eclipse.
00:22:39It should like decrease slightly
00:22:42when the sun is being blocked by the moon, right?
00:22:44It doesn't do that.
00:22:45And then what ended up happening was
00:22:49once we were able to send satellites deeper into space,
00:22:53the initial measurements,
00:22:55this is done on a Geiger counter, right?
00:22:57So the thing that like clicks
00:22:58when you're trying to detect radiation,
00:23:00it makes like a, it's kind of sound like that, right?
00:23:03And the more rapid the clicks are,
00:23:05the higher the radiation exposure.
00:23:07Well, the very first time one of these was sent up
00:23:10on a satellite, it's clicking, clicking, clicking,
00:23:14the rate is getting higher,
00:23:15and then all of a sudden it just stops.
00:23:18So it's like, what the heck's going on?
00:23:20Is there just no, suddenly no radiation?
00:23:23And it turned out, no, actually there was so much radiation,
00:23:27it was just overwhelming the sensors of the Geiger counter.
00:23:30Yeah.
00:23:31- Holy shit.
00:23:33- Exactly.
00:23:34- So I mean, I've heard, this is like,
00:23:37I'm using the dramatized series of Chernobyl as my,
00:23:42well, I've heard Geiger counters and they were in Chernobyl.
00:23:45Is it? Okay.
00:23:46But even at least in the, and it was trying to be accurate,
00:23:50I think, scientifically.
00:23:52And even in that, the Geiger counter still made a noise.
00:23:56It wasn't as if it blew out the top of it.
00:23:59It was just ticking super, super fast.
00:24:01So yeah, if you think,
00:24:03well, there's an elephant's foot down there,
00:24:04that's the most radioactive thing on the planet.
00:24:06But if you just go far enough away from us,
00:24:09you go to a point where Geiger counters
00:24:11just essentially top out, that's pretty scary.
00:24:15- Exactly, yeah.
00:24:16So what they did, they sent another satellite
00:24:19with a different type of device
00:24:21or calibrated differently or whatever.
00:24:22And then we're able to determine,
00:24:23oh yeah, you get to this certain kind of elevation
00:24:27in orbit around the earth.
00:24:29And all of a sudden there's just huge amounts of radiation.
00:24:32So we now know that there's these Van Allen radiation belts.
00:24:35There's like an inner belt and an outer belt.
00:24:38So you can kind of picture this as like,
00:24:40imagine a ball, that's the earth.
00:24:42And then you take a rubber band that's bigger than that ball.
00:24:45And then you kind of pinch it
00:24:47in the middle around the ball.
00:24:48So you've got this kind of two sort of orbs
00:24:50coming out from the earth.
00:24:53And that's the shape of the Van Allen radiation belts.
00:24:56- Well, that's why if we didn't have the iron core
00:25:00in the earth, the magnetosphere, magnetic sphere around us,
00:25:05would all of these rays would just be able to pepper us.
00:25:09I mean, there would be a ton of other problems as well.
00:25:11But one of them is that we would just get
00:25:13annihilated by radiation.
00:25:14Okay, so we've somehow, me and you have survived our journey
00:25:19across space and we've managed to land in Mars.
00:25:22Some of the stuff may be reversible.
00:25:24Some of the stuff may not be reversible.
00:25:25We'll see, we can't walk too much.
00:25:27We've got space face and space brain and chicken legs.
00:25:30What will the different physics on Mars do to humans?
00:25:36Just more of the same from the space flight?
00:25:39Is there anything else to say on the sort of physics
00:25:42of the system?
00:25:43- Yeah, so first of all, it takes something like
00:25:47six to nine months just to get there.
00:25:50So you're talking about you've been traveling through space,
00:25:53microgravity, weightlessness, for let's say six months.
00:25:58So your body is going through all those things
00:26:01that we were just talking about.
00:26:02Your muscles have become weaker.
00:26:04Your bones have become more brittle.
00:26:07The fluids have redistributed.
00:26:09That has other effects like on our eyes.
00:26:11The vision actually has a tendency to get worse.
00:26:14So that's all happening.
00:26:15Then you arrive on Mars and let's assume
00:26:18that the landing goes well and you are now on the surface.
00:26:23Now all of a sudden you're in a 1/3 gravity environment.
00:26:283/8, about 1/3 gravity environment
00:26:30compared to Earth's gravity.
00:26:32So you went from weightlessness to 1/3 G.
00:26:37And so now all of a sudden there's all this weight,
00:26:39all this force on your body.
00:26:42- Even though it's 1/3 of what's on Earth,
00:26:44it's an infinity more than what was in space.
00:26:46- Yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:26:48And so if you look at anytime astronauts come back
00:26:52from being in space, they need a lot of help
00:26:56in order just to get out of the spacecraft, to walk.
00:26:58It's like there's a long adjustment period.
00:27:00So one of the things is just immediately like that,
00:27:04even though it's just 1/3 G, that's gonna be hard
00:27:08on somebody that has been in a weightless environment
00:27:11for that amount of time.
00:27:12So if there's nobody else there to help you,
00:27:15just even getting out of your spacecraft
00:27:16might be pretty tricky. - Robo legs maybe,
00:27:18some of those assistance things, devices.
00:27:21Well, I mean, they're trying to offset this.
00:27:22I've seen astronauts using
00:27:25the sort of hand-crank cycling machines.
00:27:28You can artificially recreate force and tension and pressure
00:27:33by using stuff that has it built into the system itself.
00:27:37But the globalness of gravity, working on the spine,
00:27:42working on the organs, working on the lymph system,
00:27:45working on circulation, working on reproductive organs,
00:27:48working on, you know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.
00:27:51Yeah, I don't think that you're gonna be really trying
00:27:56to pick up pennies here when there's a shit ton
00:27:59of hundred dollar bills that you've left behind you.
00:28:01- Right, yeah, no, you're right.
00:28:02So I mean, astronauts do a lot of exercise in space.
00:28:04You're absolutely right.
00:28:06You know, using kind of resistance because you can't use,
00:28:09you know, weightlifting doesn't make sense
00:28:11in a weightless environment.
00:28:12And all of that is really meant to minimize
00:28:15the deconditioning that happens to the body, right?
00:28:19But it doesn't eliminate it.
00:28:21If you didn't do that kind of exercise,
00:28:23and they exercise about two hours a day, every day.
00:28:26So this is not like a small amount.
00:28:28If you didn't do that, you'd be in way worse shape.
00:28:32So, you know, we've arrived at Mars,
00:28:35we've done our two hours a day, every day.
00:28:38Still, it's gonna be a challenge
00:28:40to just get up and move around.
00:28:42Who knows what the cognitive effects
00:28:43of that radiation exposure.
00:28:45You've been exposed to galactic cosmic rays for six months.
00:28:49Nobody's ever had that happen.
00:28:50We simply don't know what the effect will be.
00:28:53And then there's another factor.
00:28:56What have you been eating all this time?
00:28:59You know, astronauts, you know,
00:29:02we're all kind of familiar with the idea
00:29:03of like freeze-dried foods and stuff like that,
00:29:06that astronauts typically bring with them.
00:29:08They are having to bring kind of, you know,
00:29:13shelf-stable food.
00:29:15But even in the International Space Station,
00:29:19they're able to occasionally resupply them
00:29:22with some kind of fresh food, some fresh produce.
00:29:25There's a story of Russian cosmonauts,
00:29:28the first to be living for a longer period of time
00:29:31on a space station and they smuggled in an onion.
00:29:36And it was the first ever birthday
00:29:40that a person had in space and they gave this cosmonaut
00:29:44an onion for his birthday.
00:29:45And it was the most wonderful thing.
00:29:48- That is the most Russian shit
00:29:50I have ever heard in my entire life.
00:29:52- Yep.
00:29:54- We have birthday, we have onion.
00:29:56- Yep, contraband onion, no less.
00:29:59- Legal onion.
00:30:00- Yep, yep.
00:30:02But like the point is people really get excited
00:30:04about any kind of fresh produce that you can have.
00:30:09We have not made major advances in our ability
00:30:13to grow large amounts of food
00:30:15in any sort of space environment.
00:30:17This is something that people are actively trying to work on.
00:30:21They have grown plants on the International Space Station,
00:30:24but at very small scales.
00:30:27And the astronauts tend to get really attached
00:30:28to those plants.
00:30:30And so we think that's gonna be a major limiting factor
00:30:35in our ability to go deeper into space
00:30:37is what are we gonna eat?
00:30:39Nobody wants to go and eat canned food,
00:30:41packaged food for years at a time
00:30:44without mixing it up with some fresh food.
00:30:48So that's another one of the challenges.
00:30:51- Given the radiation issues,
00:30:54does that mean there's going to be higher mutation load
00:30:57just generally over time?
00:30:59- I think it does.
00:31:01So I think we should expect that people
00:31:03are going to be exposed to higher radiation
00:31:05even if they're living in some kind of an environment
00:31:09that's trying to shield, block that radiation.
00:31:11- Special 3D printed reflective anti-radiation.
00:31:16They've already done the nine months to get out there.
00:31:18They're probably going in and out doing Mars walks
00:31:21or spacewalks or some sort of equivalent thing.
00:31:23And the 3D printing machines,
00:31:25at least for the first few centuries,
00:31:27they're not going to be able to block everything
00:31:29and there's more radiation.
00:31:30- Yeah, I mean, even if you built
00:31:32a fully radiation-proof enclosure
00:31:34that you could live in on Mars,
00:31:36who wants to go to Mars and never go walk around outside?
00:31:39I mean, what's the point?
00:31:41So I think people will be exposed to more radiation.
00:31:44And yeah, radiation causes mutations.
00:31:47It causes damage to the DNA.
00:31:49And when the body repairs that damage,
00:31:51it's never a perfect process.
00:31:53There's always a risk that the repair
00:31:57leads to a change in the sequence of DNA
00:32:00and that's a mutation.
00:32:02So that's a health risk,
00:32:05but it also has implications for our ability to adapt
00:32:09over a much longer timescale of many generations.
00:32:13- What does it do to adaptability?
00:32:17- Well, adaptation comes from natural selection
00:32:20and natural selection on its own
00:32:21can only really sift through whatever variation there is.
00:32:25And so the only way you get new variation
00:32:28is through mutation.
00:32:29Mutation is the ultimate source of all diversity
00:32:33of all living things. - Why is this
00:32:34not a good thing then?
00:32:35Does this not push the dice rolling more quickly?
00:32:38- So I think that what we should expect,
00:32:40if we do nothing else,
00:32:41is that we're able to live for many generations
00:32:45in a space environment like on Mars.
00:32:47It would mean that basically you are kickstarting
00:32:51the evolutionary process.
00:32:52It would happen faster.
00:32:53Why that is something we should maybe be concerned about
00:32:56is that's a very messy and unpleasant process.
00:32:59We're basically talking about a lot of death.
00:33:01- There's gonna be tons of errors.
00:33:01There's gonna be shed tons of errors.
00:33:02Well, that one doesn't work.
00:33:03That one doesn't work.
00:33:04That one doesn't work.
00:33:05That one kind of works.
00:33:06That one doesn't work.
00:33:07That one doesn't work.
00:33:08- Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a lot of suffering.
00:33:10You're talking about a lot of death.
00:33:12And so that's, you know, it would happen.
00:33:15I think what I try to argue is that's sort of the default
00:33:18that we should expect is that if we're living
00:33:21for many generations in this kind of an extreme environment,
00:33:24natural selection will do its thing.
00:33:26Mutation rates would be higher
00:33:28because of that radiation exposure.
00:33:30And so basically the process that we normally think of
00:33:33as being generally pretty slow would actually happen faster.
00:33:37- Yeah, well, okay.
00:33:38But what about selection bottlenecks?
00:33:41'Cause if Mars is going to accelerate
00:33:43this evolutionary roulette,
00:33:45you end up with selection bottlenecks.
00:33:48- Yeah, the idea of bottlenecks,
00:33:50I think this is an important concept
00:33:51that we have to think about if what we're trying to do
00:33:55is to create a long-term settlement.
00:33:57Because we know that anytime you take a large number
00:33:59of individuals and then you take a small number of them
00:34:02and put them somewhere else, right?
00:34:04You've gone through a population bottleneck.
00:34:07That's, you know, basically it's like pouring.
00:34:09I do this simulation in my classes sometimes
00:34:11where you take like a bottle that's filled
00:34:14with like different colored gumballs, right?
00:34:16And you know how many different colors there are.
00:34:18And then you pour out a few of them and then you ask, okay,
00:34:21is the proportion of different colored gumballs the same
00:34:24as it was in the bottle at the starting point
00:34:26or is it different?
00:34:27And of course it's gonna be different.
00:34:28It's never gonna be exactly the same.
00:34:30So you take a small number of individuals from a large group,
00:34:32it's not gonna be representative.
00:34:34So that kind of reduction in population size
00:34:39that happens when, you know, when you found a new population,
00:34:43it leads to rapid evolutionary change.
00:34:46And we call that the founder effect in evolutionary biology
00:34:50because it's a well-known phenomenon.
00:34:52Anytime, you know, a new population is founded,
00:34:56you tend to get a reduction of genetic diversity
00:34:59and whoever the individuals are that are the founders
00:35:03have this like really disproportionate effect
00:35:06on what happens later.
00:35:07Like they're really influential.
00:35:09- Have you ever read "Seveneves" by Neil Stevenson?
00:35:11- I have, yes.
00:35:12- Dude, this is exactly what the founder effect is, right?
00:35:15- That's right, yep, yep.
00:35:16- I don't wanna spoil it.
00:35:17It's in my first reading list
00:35:19that lots of people have downloaded.
00:35:20So maybe loads of people that are listening
00:35:21also know the spoiler too.
00:35:23Actually, skip forward.
00:35:24If you haven't read "Seveneves,"
00:35:26skip forward by about 30 seconds.
00:35:27So halfway through the book after the moon explodes,
00:35:30there's seven women left.
00:35:31I think only one of them can't reproduce.
00:35:33I think one of them is like a matron marshal type lady
00:35:36or maybe there's eight and seven can reproduce.
00:35:38And yeah, you end up with these seven different races
00:35:40in future.
00:35:41And each one is very distinct.
00:35:44And welcome back to the people that didn't read "Seveneves."
00:35:48You end up with this sort of very distinct lineage.
00:35:51And that's the best.
00:35:53This is why hard sci-fi rules,
00:35:55because I get to learn about real stuff
00:35:57and it's snuck in under the guise of it being a story.
00:36:00- Oh, there's so many examples of how a science fiction author
00:36:04has already thought through a lot of the real challenges
00:36:07and the real consequences.
00:36:09Do you remember in "Seveneves" that there was such a scarcity
00:36:13of food halfway through that somebody invented the idea
00:36:16of soft cannibalism?
00:36:18Do you remember that?
00:36:20- Soft cannibalism.
00:36:21- He ate his own legs because he decided that in space,
00:36:25legs were arbitrary. - You don't eat them.
00:36:26Yeah, they're superfluous.
00:36:27- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:28And he reduced his energy requirement
00:36:30and increased his energy intake by eating his own legs.
00:36:32So cool.
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00:37:46So you've got habitats on Mars, 3D printed,
00:37:49hopefully protective,
00:37:50but closed systems magnify small errors even more.
00:37:55It's basically like being in a closed system
00:37:58is more akin to being on an island
00:38:00than it is being in a city.
00:38:01- That's right, yeah.
00:38:03I mean, you are in an island, right?
00:38:05I mean, you're in a place where you can live,
00:38:07but you're surrounded by an inhospitable environment.
00:38:10And so, yeah, I mean, that's an island.
00:38:12Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it.
00:38:15- So presumably there's gonna be huge survival pressures
00:38:20on psychological traits,
00:38:22maybe just as much as the physical ones.
00:38:25- Psychological traits, definitely, and skills.
00:38:29I mean, think about who are the people
00:38:31you would wanna send to establish a new,
00:38:34a new human population on Mars.
00:38:37I mean, you want people who are likely
00:38:39to be able to handle tough situations,
00:38:41but you also want people who know how to do
00:38:44all different sorts of things.
00:38:45You need different skills,
00:38:48you need different personality traits,
00:38:52but you also wanna make sure you've enhanced
00:38:54the kind of probability of success
00:38:59by making sure it's also a genetically diverse
00:39:02group of people, you know?
00:39:03I mean, the more genetically diverse it is,
00:39:07the more opportunity there is for natural selection
00:39:10to be able to help people to adapt in future generations.
00:39:15So, yeah, I think it would have to be quite different
00:39:18from how we have kind of historically chosen
00:39:22who gets to go to space, right?
00:39:24You know, I don't, did you ever read-
00:39:25- So you would actually want, you would actually,
00:39:27oh, sorry, go ahead.
00:39:28- Well, so there's kind of this like famous book
00:39:31from I think in 1979 called "The Right Stuff" by Tom Wolfe.
00:39:35I don't know if you've ever read that.
00:39:36It's like one of the classic accounts of the early days
00:39:39of the US space program.
00:39:42But that title, that idea of the right stuff,
00:39:45like who is it that has the right stuff
00:39:47that gets to be the select few that go to space?
00:39:51And at least initially for the US,
00:39:52it was all, well, first of all, it was all men,
00:39:56it was all white men.
00:39:57And then it was all like actually Navy test pilots, right?
00:40:02So they took them from the military.
00:40:04It was only people who were already in the military
00:40:08and they were chosen for their ability to be able
00:40:10to handle the physical aspects of a launch and being in space
00:40:15and also the psychological challenges.
00:40:19And, you know, I mean, the US space program
00:40:21is huge success clearly.
00:40:24But if you use those same criteria to select people
00:40:28for who's going to found a new population on Mars,
00:40:31you'd get such a tiny fraction of human diversity,
00:40:34you'd be setting yourself up for failure.
00:40:36- Which is only gonna get more bottlenecked over time.
00:40:39- That's right. - So you get tighter and tighter.
00:40:40So you need to make the base of this pyramid
00:40:42as broad as possible.
00:40:43So, I mean, I was thinking as you were speaking,
00:40:45you know, people who have brittle bones, for instance,
00:40:50maybe they have something which is actually useful in there
00:40:53because all of the selection pressures
00:40:54that we have currently,
00:40:56we want someone who's big and strong.
00:40:59Why?
00:41:00Gravity is 30% of the,
00:41:01maybe we actually want people who are really petite
00:41:04and therefore they need fewer calories
00:41:06and therefore they don't need to eat their own legs.
00:41:08- That's right.
00:41:09- When it comes to the personalities,
00:41:11are there some personalities that are more suited
00:41:13for space colonization than others?
00:41:15- Well, we do know from a lot of the studies
00:41:19that have been done in analogs,
00:41:20like we were talking about earlier,
00:41:21and this includes things like people who are working
00:41:25in Antarctica in the most sort of similar environment
00:41:28that exists on earth to what it will be like there, right?
00:41:31You're in an isolated, extreme, confined environment
00:41:35surrounded by, you know, hostile conditions.
00:41:39So, you know, what are the factors that lead to success,
00:41:44especially for like people
00:41:45who are overwintering in Antarctica?
00:41:48Like they're staying, you can't just, you know,
00:41:50leave whenever you want to because there's no way
00:41:52to kind of get a ship or a plane in.
00:41:55People who do well in that environment
00:42:00are people who are good team players,
00:42:04are people who are, you know,
00:42:07open about kind of how the experience is going for them,
00:42:10willing to talk about it,
00:42:11willing to talk about it with others.
00:42:14You know, you also want a good chemistry among the group,
00:42:18right, so you don't want, you know, all type A personalities
00:42:22'cause they're likely to kind of clash, right?
00:42:26And so there's all these studies that have like looked
00:42:29at the psychology of group dynamics.
00:42:31An interesting one is you don't want
00:42:33an even number of people.
00:42:35You want an odd number. - Is that for voting?
00:42:38- It's because it can split into, yeah, basically,
00:42:41it could split into factions and you need a tiebreaker, right?
00:42:47So there've been examples of where that has happened
00:42:50and it hasn't always gone well.
00:42:52So yeah, so there's interesting lessons that can be learned
00:42:55from, you know, what happens here on earth.
00:42:57- That is so good.
00:42:59Wow, okay, so you mentioned before about who gets
00:43:02to go to Mars first, sort of the best people,
00:43:04the strongest people, the richest people,
00:43:06the most obedient people.
00:43:08Who do you think should govern Mars?
00:43:09Is it earth governments?
00:43:11Is it companies?
00:43:12Is it the colonists themselves?
00:43:14What about the politics?
00:43:15What about the astro Martian politics?
00:43:17- You know, I think we have this tendency
00:43:18to think about going to space as being like an opportunity
00:43:22to, you know, start completely fresh
00:43:25and get it right this time and all, you know,
00:43:27this like we're gonna have a utopia in space.
00:43:31I'm not convinced by that way of thinking about it.
00:43:33I think, you know, humans are humans and we should learn
00:43:37from what has happened before and not expect
00:43:41that it would be different there.
00:43:42So I think we need to try to, you know, do the things
00:43:46that seem to work well here on earth, right?
00:43:48I don't think you wanna have, for example, like, you know,
00:43:51a government from earth dictating what happens on Mars
00:43:56because we know that that doesn't work well.
00:43:59You know, we know that people need to have their own ability
00:44:03to make their own decisions.
00:44:04You want leaders who have skin in the game.
00:44:07- It's also highly inefficient.
00:44:09- Sure, and there's a communication delay.
00:44:11We haven't even talked about that.
00:44:12You can't have this kind of conversation like we're having
00:44:16where one person is on earth and the other person is on Mars
00:44:18because they're so far away that you'll have several minutes
00:44:23of delay between when you say something
00:44:25and when the person hears it on the other end.
00:44:27And it could be up to 20 minutes depending on where earth
00:44:31and Mars are in their respective orbits.
00:44:34So you can send emails, you know,
00:44:36or video messages back and forth,
00:44:37but you can't really have a conversation.
00:44:39So yeah, imagine a government meeting where, you know,
00:44:43you can't even like have a conversation, right?
00:44:45You think it's dysfunctional now, man.
00:44:47(laughing)
00:44:49- Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, there was a campaign
00:44:57when Elon first started floating around the administration
00:45:02to decolonize Mars.
00:45:04And what they meant by that was we don't want the same
00:45:08horrible, inequity, oligopoly, powerful,
00:45:13Matthew principle bullshit to go to this new planet.
00:45:17It was pointed out that there's a little bit of an irony
00:45:19in talking about decolonizing a planet
00:45:21that we haven't yet colonized.
00:45:23But yeah, the politics of this, I think,
00:45:25are just so fascinating.
00:45:27And again, my go-to 70s from Neil Stevenson,
00:45:31they need to work out what happens with murder.
00:45:33What happens if somebody commits a crime in space?
00:45:36Is there a prison?
00:45:37Who's the adjudicator?
00:45:39What are the law?
00:45:40Everything needs to be re-insanciated again.
00:45:42And if you've got people from multiple different countries,
00:45:44so what, the Russians do it this way,
00:45:45but the Americans do it that way,
00:45:46but the Ukrainians do it a different way.
00:45:49- Yeah.
00:45:50- Well, we disagree with your, well, we need to,
00:45:51it's a new, people aren't from nations anymore.
00:45:54And if they are, those factions are just going to become
00:45:57splinters that start to fracture what is supposed to be
00:45:59a cohesive unit into something which is, you know,
00:46:03very individualized, which you don't want.
00:46:05But do you want to say to people that you need to recant
00:46:10your current identity?
00:46:11Well, after a few generations, what does that mean?
00:46:14And then how do you avoid there being new splinter factions?
00:46:16You don't have that much tolerance for error
00:46:19with this stuff when it comes to governance.
00:46:21You know, you can have a good bit of tolerance for error
00:46:23if there's 156 countries or something.
00:46:25If you've got three pods, 200 people, 10 people die.
00:46:30That's a lot of, that's 5%, right?
00:46:33There's a lot of people.
00:46:34So yeah, just, endlessly fascinating.
00:46:38All right, going back to the personality thing,
00:46:41the psychological impact.
00:46:43What does long-term isolation in space do to the human mind?
00:46:48Why are closed ecosystems so psychologically taxing?
00:46:54Well, I think there's a few things, right?
00:46:55I mean, one is just, you know,
00:46:57knowing that you can't leave, right?
00:47:00This is something that, you know, again,
00:47:02people in Antarctica research stations or, you know,
00:47:06some of the remote field camps that they experience,
00:47:08you can't just, you know, go for a walk or say, that's it,
00:47:11I'm done, I'm out of here.
00:47:13A similar kind of thing happens to people
00:47:16who are on submarines, like nuclear submarines
00:47:20that have to spend a long period of time submerged
00:47:24during military operations, right?
00:47:26Can't just step outside?
00:47:28You're pretty much stuck there.
00:47:31The difference there is, you know,
00:47:32they're working within a kind of a military hierarchy system
00:47:35that's sort of, you know, built into the nature
00:47:39of the experience.
00:47:40That's not the case so much in Antarctica,
00:47:43but you know, it's knowing that you can't leave
00:47:47is something that definitely takes a toll, you know?
00:47:52And you have to train for it,
00:47:54you have to be prepared for it,
00:47:55and you have to have, you know, systems in place
00:47:59to allow people to deal with whatever comes with it, right?
00:48:03So you need to be able to have, you know, for example,
00:48:06you know, a therapist available to speak with them.
00:48:09You need to have, you know, resources in place
00:48:12to deal with crises when they do take place as well.
00:48:16So I think that's something that has to be built in.
00:48:19But there's an interesting other side to it, right?
00:48:22So, you know, we think a lot about like,
00:48:24oh, how this is really gonna be hard
00:48:25and it's gonna be something that's gonna have
00:48:28maybe a negative impact on a lot of folks.
00:48:32But there's also this idea that going to space
00:48:35can have a profound positive impact on people.
00:48:39So some of the first accounts of astronauts
00:48:43really, you know, talk about like just the awe and wonder.
00:48:48I mean, people still talk about that today.
00:48:49Everybody that goes to space talks about
00:48:51how incredible it is.
00:48:53- Including Katy Perry, yeah.
00:48:55- Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, yeah.
00:48:57I mean, everybody does.
00:48:58I mean, how could you not--
00:48:59- Including the famed astronaut, Katy Perry.
00:49:01(laughing)
00:49:02- And William Shatner, did you see when he went to space,
00:49:05he talked about this too.
00:49:06- Was it called the blue dot effect
00:49:08or the whole earth effect or something?
00:49:10- It's called the overview effect.
00:49:11- Overview effect.
00:49:12- Yeah, so that's the term that's been given
00:49:16to this phenomenon by Frank White,
00:49:18who's a philosopher of space who, you know,
00:49:22he did all these interviews with, initially with, you know,
00:49:25sort of NASA astronauts and cosmonauts as well.
00:49:29And even up to, you know, more recent flights
00:49:32where we have, you know, people who are kind of
00:49:37everyday citizens that are going up
00:49:38on these commercial space flights now.
00:49:40And so he has basically argued that like,
00:49:45people have this profound shift that happens to them
00:49:48by being in space and looking back at the earth
00:49:51and, you know, seeing, for example,
00:49:53how thin the atmosphere is.
00:49:56It just looks so fragile and delicate, you know,
00:49:59seeing how the earth doesn't look like it does on the map.
00:50:03So there's no borders between nations, you know,
00:50:05this sense that like, we're really all in this together.
00:50:08And then just the vastness of space.
00:50:10So, you know, we're a tiny little dot, right,
00:50:13in the vastness of space.
00:50:15And so he has argued that basically, you know,
00:50:18it would be really good for as many people as possible
00:50:21to go into space and have that experience
00:50:23because it makes us, you know, better people.
00:50:26It makes us better stewards of our planet,
00:50:29of our environment.
00:50:31- I get it, but the entire problem here is
00:50:33there's only one or two generations
00:50:34that are going to be actually traveling there.
00:50:36As soon as you have kids, the same tribal mechanism.
00:50:40Yeah, I mean, what makes you think
00:50:42that the steward of your planet would change
00:50:45because you can see your mom and dad's home planet over there
00:50:48and you're on a different one now?
00:50:49The same psychological effects are just gonna kick in
00:50:52in a different atmosphere.
00:50:54- I think you're right.
00:50:55So this is one of the things I write about is that, you know,
00:50:57I think it would be a fundamentally different thing
00:51:00for children born on Mars or born anywhere else, right?
00:51:04You won't have that same connection.
00:51:06I mean, it's the same kind of phenomenon that happens
00:51:08with, you know, with immigrant families, right?
00:51:11The first generation, they still feel very connected
00:51:13to their home country and culture.
00:51:15And that lasts for a few generations,
00:51:17but eventually you have this kind of like loose identity
00:51:20with that, you know, home country.
00:51:23And maybe you go back and visit
00:51:24and maybe you adopt some of the, you know,
00:51:27the culture, the cuisine, the dress, et cetera.
00:51:29But, you know, eventually people start to think
00:51:32of themselves as belonging to the place where they live.
00:51:35- Look at me, I drive a Camaro.
00:51:37I've only been here four years
00:51:38and I've gone completely fucking feral.
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00:52:46So I think people understand
00:52:48that future humans will physically be different, right?
00:52:51It makes an awful lot of sense.
00:52:54And then if you understand how evolution works,
00:52:56there's gonna be some speciation over time.
00:52:58What I think is really surprising,
00:53:02shocking to a lot of people,
00:53:03will be to consider the idea that Martian human nature
00:53:08would be genetically distinct,
00:53:11like the texture of their minds
00:53:14and the way that their brains function
00:53:16would be not only distinct, but maybe unrecognizable.
00:53:21That sounds wild.
00:53:22Yeah, yeah, I think that's possible.
00:53:24I mean, one thing is, look,
00:53:25I think the most likely kind of environment
00:53:28that we would be living in, like what we would build,
00:53:30where would we live on Mars, would be underground
00:53:34because that is the easiest way
00:53:35to create a habitat that is-
00:53:38You don't have to build anything.
00:53:39Protect it, yeah.
00:53:40You get rid of the stuff that's in there.
00:53:42You don't need building materials.
00:53:43You just need building holes.
00:53:45That's right.
00:53:46And you don't have to worry about the space radiation.
00:53:49You don't have to worry about,
00:53:50we didn't even talk about like meteor impacts, right?
00:53:51Without, Mars has such a thin atmosphere,
00:53:54it has no magnetic field.
00:53:56Its radiation is very high,
00:53:59but also with that thin atmosphere,
00:54:01it's getting bombarded by meteors much more so than Earth.
00:54:06You don't want a glass dome,
00:54:09the way we often see depicted in sci-fi.
00:54:13You want something much more protected.
00:54:16And so what's the, to your point,
00:54:18like what is the psychology of an entire society?
00:54:23Underground, yeah, that's right.
00:54:26That's right.
00:54:26What does that do to your physical features
00:54:31like your eyes, your vision?
00:54:32I mean, presumably using artificial light,
00:54:34but what does it do to you psychologically?
00:54:37How do you think about your spatial awareness
00:54:41and your connection also with the environment?
00:54:46I mean, for me, like I'm a biologist,
00:54:47I love nature, I love being outside in nature.
00:54:51I think most of us do in some way.
00:54:54We have this idea that like going on a walk in the woods
00:54:58or in a park, it makes us feel better, right?
00:55:01There's a benefit to being out in nature
00:55:04that we can all recognize.
00:55:06And even just like having an animal, like a pet, right?
00:55:09Like I've got dogs, we all love to be around animals.
00:55:13We have to think about what the world would be like
00:55:16if there wasn't nature around us.
00:55:19I mean, living on Mars, there's no wildlife,
00:55:23there's no forests.
00:55:25Now, presumably we'll build habitats and environments
00:55:28that allow us to live and we'll have to grow crops
00:55:31and things like that.
00:55:32But I think we're unlikely to bring
00:55:35much in the way of animals with us.
00:55:38And so, you know.
00:55:40- Look at every sci-fi movie ever
00:55:42where they're trying to go to some new habitat.
00:55:43Yeah, the physical effects start to kick in
00:55:46and a few people do this thing.
00:55:48But the big issue, like me justifying the future
00:55:52of Martian colonization through what I've seen in Hollywood.
00:55:56But it's how I can see it that the psychological impacts
00:56:00are the things that are really, really destructive
00:56:03because they have a domino effect
00:56:05in a manner that the physical ailments are bounded, I guess,
00:56:09by, you know, I get sick, you don't necessarily get sick,
00:56:12something happening to me.
00:56:13But if I become psychotic,
00:56:17I can take out an entire pod of people
00:56:19or I can do something catastrophic to the air supply
00:56:23or I can run out and get blown up or do whatever myself.
00:56:26So, okay.
00:56:27Continuing future people,
00:56:30how are we gonna do reproduction in space?
00:56:33What happens with keeping us going?
00:56:36- Well, I will say that in terms of like what we do know
00:56:39and what we don't know about like how space affects
00:56:43the human body and our ability to actually live
00:56:46in a space environment or another world,
00:56:48I think this is the biggest black box, the biggest unknown.
00:56:52We have done so little amount of research on reproduction
00:56:57in a lower gravity environment, in a space environment,
00:57:00that the bottom line is we don't know.
00:57:02We're sort of assuming anytime we talk about like,
00:57:05you know, moving to Mars or building a space settlement,
00:57:09we are assuming that reproduction is possible,
00:57:13that it will work well enough.
00:57:15And that's actually something that we can't be certain of
00:57:17without doing more research.
00:57:20There have been some studies.
00:57:21So there've been some studies in space,
00:57:24going back to the space shuttle days
00:57:26and certainly through the International Space Station era,
00:57:30some rodent studies, some studies on fish,
00:57:33some studies on other invertebrate animals like sea urchins.
00:57:38But the bottom line is that it's kind of inconclusive.
00:57:42Like we really haven't done enough
00:57:44and we haven't done systematic enough studies
00:57:47to know that our own ability to, you know, to get pregnant,
00:57:52to have a full pregnancy, two term childbirth,
00:57:58and then child development,
00:58:00like the entire process of growing.
00:58:02You know, what happens to a child's body
00:58:05as your bones are growing?
00:58:07- Growing under zero. - In a 1/3 G.
00:58:10- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:11- We don't know.
00:58:12- I asked Christopher Mason, you know him?
00:58:15- Yes. - Yeah, yeah, of course.
00:58:17He's been on the show once, maybe twice, he was great.
00:58:19And I asked him, has anybody ever had sex in space?
00:58:24And he gave me this look.
00:58:25You're giving me the look now as well.
00:58:27- Well, it's a question everybody wants to know, absolutely.
00:58:30And the bottom line is that officially the answer is no.
00:58:35- You've given me the same answer.
00:58:36- We don't have any documents.
00:58:37- Have you guys been given some sort of talking sheet
00:58:39or something, that's exactly what you said.
00:58:40- This is a topic that comes up a lot.
00:58:43So there's, you know, a lot that's been written about it,
00:58:47including I write about it in my book.
00:58:50So yeah, we don't know, we don't know.
00:58:52Nobody claims to have had sex in space.
00:58:56And there is definitely not any documentation
00:58:59of sex in space.
00:59:00There was a married couple, two NASA astronauts
00:59:03that were on the space shuttle at the same time.
00:59:05- If you think that a married couple are going to space
00:59:10and they're not gonna join the million mile high club,
00:59:13you are out of your mind.
00:59:14- Yep, and so because of that,
00:59:16there's been all this speculation that like,
00:59:18surely they must have, but you know,
00:59:20NASA was very hush-hush about it.
00:59:22The two astronauts in question were very hush-hush.
00:59:25I've asked about this, including, you know,
00:59:27contacts and friends of mine at NASA
00:59:30and in the space industry.
00:59:32And one of the things that I've been told is like,
00:59:34look, if you know what it was like on the space shuttle,
00:59:37there was no privacy.
00:59:39Like there is like, if that happened,
00:59:40it would not have been done in private.
00:59:42And so that maybe, you know,
00:59:45makes it a little less likely that it happened, but.
00:59:47- Okay, okay.
00:59:48Well, someone's gotta be the first, right?
00:59:51And there's not many, that's the real territory to conquer.
00:59:54I don't care about being the first on Mars.
00:59:56I just want to be the first,
00:59:56I want to be the first guy to bone in space.
00:59:58Okay, reproduction, we've already,
01:00:02I've done a lot of episodes about embryo selection,
01:00:06about IVG, some stuff with artificial wombs.
01:00:11Do you think it's realistic that reproduction
01:00:15will be technologically mediated
01:00:17to try and offset some of this stuff?
01:00:19How is the reproduction process gonna happen?
01:00:23- Here's the thing that worries me.
01:00:25If what we're talking about is Mars,
01:00:26so you're talking about a one third gravity environment,
01:00:28not a weightless environment,
01:00:29one third gravity environment.
01:00:31I think the risk is once we're talking about people
01:00:34who have lived their entire lives there,
01:00:35like a child born on Mars, right?
01:00:38Who then, you know, basically is, you know,
01:00:41growing in that one third gravity environment,
01:00:43their entire childhood, by the time they get to adulthood
01:00:47and are, you know, childbearing age, right?
01:00:52Imagine a woman who gets pregnant and is going to give birth.
01:00:55She will have had her bones losing bone density
01:01:00her entire life because her genetics are the same genetics
01:01:06that, you know, we all have here on earth,
01:01:09meaning that you're born with a certain bone density,
01:01:12but in a one third gravity environment your entire life,
01:01:15you're losing bone density.
01:01:17So her bones will have become more brittle and weak
01:01:20throughout her childhood and into her adulthood.
01:01:24And now she is giving birth and experiencing,
01:01:27yeah, the, you know, forces of, you know,
01:01:31the woman experiences during childbirth.
01:01:34I think there's a real risk of fractures.
01:01:36And we know that one of the parts of the body
01:01:38that's most prone to fractures
01:01:41from this kind of bone density loss
01:01:44is the hip and the pelvis.
01:01:47- You know Piers, are you familiar with Piers Morgan?
01:01:49You know who he is?
01:01:49He's a journalist guy, he fell off a single step
01:01:52and fractured his hip.
01:01:54So yeah, they are the fragile things.
01:01:57- And so, you know, the reason I bring it up
01:01:59is because that's a kind of a fracture
01:02:02that could actually be deadly if we're talking about it
01:02:06in the context of childbirth, you know,
01:02:10that baby might not survive the experience of childbirth.
01:02:15And so what does that do then?
01:02:17You know, if we're looking about, you know,
01:02:19the impact of this over multiple generations.
01:02:22Yeah, so one possibility is you just avoid the risk.
01:02:26And so all births are done through C-section.
01:02:28But that actually creates other situations
01:02:33because now if all the births are through C-section
01:02:35because, you know, vaginal births are too risky, now--
01:02:40- You're selecting against women
01:02:41who can have vaginal births.
01:02:43- Yeah, and actually you've eliminated
01:02:46one of the constraints
01:02:48that has existed throughout human evolution.
01:02:50- You're gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger babies.
01:02:52Yeah, so Dr. Anna Machin, are you familiar with her?
01:02:55- No.
01:02:56- Evolutionary biologist and psychologist,
01:02:59she's in Robin Dunbar's lab at the University of Oxford.
01:03:03She's wonderful.
01:03:04And she wrote a book called "Life of Dad."
01:03:06She's writing another one about dads actually as well.
01:03:09And she tells the story about how dads saved the human race
01:03:14because baby's heads got too big.
01:03:16And her point is that babies get this massive head
01:03:21because it turns out that intelligence
01:03:24is really good for survival.
01:03:26But in order to get this big head out of that woman
01:03:30without breaking her in half,
01:03:32which would have happened for a good amount of time,
01:03:34there would have been many, many, many women
01:03:35died in childbirth all the time.
01:03:36But just straight up, this baby is so big,
01:03:39it will not come out.
01:03:40And we don't know how to do C-section because it's 5,000 BC,
01:03:42or it's 50,000 BC.
01:03:46Dads were there to help along, not by pulling the baby out,
01:03:50but by the women who were able to get the baby out.
01:03:53This neotenous blob requires six, seven, eight, 10 years
01:03:58of full-time monitoring.
01:04:00So it doesn't get eaten by something or fall off a cliff.
01:04:03And that's why humans have higher MPI,
01:04:08male parental investment, than many of the species,
01:04:10not all species, but many of the species.
01:04:12And yeah, she tells that story.
01:04:14So you have basically this reversion back to that situation
01:04:19where, because the constraint for baby size
01:04:23is no longer limited by birth canal,
01:04:26if everything's happening through C-section,
01:04:28you revisit this issue that was occurring
01:04:32a few hundred thousand years ago.
01:04:34And yeah, maybe you end up with ginormous babies
01:04:39that aren't being selected against because,
01:04:41and then maybe it causes some other thing.
01:04:43Maybe sex becomes difficult to do
01:04:45because we find out that some sort of selection pressure
01:04:49that birthing was having on women's physiology
01:04:52was in some way enhancing or productive
01:04:55towards the way that their other sexual function went.
01:04:58Like it's a real, you change one thing,
01:05:00it's a butterfly effect, right?
01:05:01You change one thing genetically
01:05:03and the whole house of cards can come down.
01:05:04- Yeah, that's right.
01:05:05Exactly.
01:05:06And so I think because of that,
01:05:08that's why I bring up this one specific challenge
01:05:11that I think we maybe haven't thought through enough yet
01:05:14and that, as you said, could lead to all sorts
01:05:15of other sort of downstream consequences.
01:05:18So, you know, bottom line is we don't know
01:05:22whether human reproduction is in fact possible
01:05:25in the conditions on Mars.
01:05:27So this is one thing I think, you know,
01:05:28it would actually be relatively straightforward
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01:05:33even in the low earth environment, excuse me,
01:05:36low earth orbit environment that would help us
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01:06:43Will we, okay, how long will speciation take?
01:06:48- Yeah, so, okay.
01:06:50Here's the thing that I will say about that.
01:06:52So speciation, right, formation of new species.
01:06:55This is something, you know,
01:06:56I talk about this in my classes with my students all the time.
01:06:59It's not a black and white thing.
01:07:01Like, oh, now it's a new species, right?
01:07:03We, as biologists, debate constantly all the time
01:07:07about, you know, how to even define a species.
01:07:09Where do you draw the boundaries
01:07:10between one species and another?
01:07:12So partly it depends on that,
01:07:14but that's sort of dodging the question,
01:07:16which is not what I'm trying to do.
01:07:18I think the real question is like,
01:07:20how rapidly would you get individuals on Mars
01:07:24that we would recognize as being distinct from us, right?
01:07:29Like in some recognizable, meaningful way.
01:07:33And what I would say is I think it will happen much faster
01:07:37than what we would expect based on what we normally
01:07:41are used to here on Earth.
01:07:42And it boils down to this.
01:07:45So, you know, we've already talked about how being on Mars
01:07:48is going to make people different, right?
01:07:51Psychologically different, genetically different,
01:07:53culturally different, all of those things.
01:07:55As long as you have people who are moving back and forth
01:07:58between Earth and Mars and able to travel freely between them
01:08:03and basically able to, you know, able to have sex,
01:08:07able to have children, able to reproduce.
01:08:09So if you can kind of move between those environments,
01:08:12that will kind of reduce the differences
01:08:16between those populations, right?
01:08:18Like you're, as long as people are exchanging genes,
01:08:21you don't get speciation happening very easily.
01:08:24So then the question becomes like,
01:08:27well, is that going to be the case?
01:08:29Will it be easy for people to move back and forth
01:08:32between Earth and Mars?
01:08:34And I don't think it will be.
01:08:36I think it will be much harder for people to move back
01:08:38and forth between planets than we maybe have appreciated.
01:08:42And specifically, I mean like people born on Mars.
01:08:46I think even as soon as the first generation of people
01:08:50born on Mars will potentially have a great difficulty
01:08:54with coming back to Earth.
01:08:56For one thing, it's the gravity that we've talked about, right?
01:08:58A child born in a one-third gravity environment
01:09:02is unlikely to build a skeleton that is strong enough
01:09:05to be able to tolerate Earth gravity.
01:09:08And this is, we've been talking about science fiction, right?
01:09:10So like this shows up in, you know,
01:09:12I don't know if you've watched "The Expanse"
01:09:13or read the series, but it's like,
01:09:15that's a theme that comes up is like, you know,
01:09:18the idea that if you're from a lower gravity environment,
01:09:21high G is, you know, gonna be painful if not--
01:09:24- Torturous to you, right? - That's right.
01:09:26Yeah, gravity torture is a concept from "The Expanse."
01:09:29That's one thing. - Should I read that?
01:09:31Is it good?
01:09:32'Cause I watched the first season maybe, season and a half,
01:09:36and then I kind of got a little bit lost in it.
01:09:38Is the book, how do you rate the book?
01:09:40If "Seven Eves" for me is a strong eight,
01:09:43where's "The Expanse?"
01:09:44- All right, here's my admission.
01:09:47So I haven't read it.
01:09:47I've seen the series, but I haven't read the,
01:09:50I haven't read it, so. - Fair enough.
01:09:51- Yeah, my bad.
01:09:53But so, gravity though is something
01:09:57that I think will be a limiting factor,
01:10:00but I think there's an even potentially bigger factor
01:10:03that will keep people from being able
01:10:04to move between planets, and that is microbes,
01:10:08germs, our immune systems.
01:10:10So what happens to the immune system
01:10:12of a child born on Mars?
01:10:14They will only ever be exposed
01:10:16to whatever the microorganisms are that we bring with us.
01:10:21And that's gonna be a tiny fraction, right?
01:10:23I mean, they're going through the same bottleneck.
01:10:25The microbes are going through the same kind of bottleneck.
01:10:27- Oh, fuck, it's a big sterilization procedure
01:10:31for whatever you've brought with you,
01:10:33the peanuts and the wheat and the gluten and the everything.
01:10:36- Yep, yep, yep, exactly.
01:10:38And so now you've got a kid who has never been exposed
01:10:41to the vast majority of what we're breathing in right now,
01:10:44and just all the microbes that are surrounding us.
01:10:47I don't think they would be able to easily come back to Earth
01:10:51without a whole lot of protection.
01:10:52- Have you got a name for this?
01:10:53'Cause this is a unique kind of, it's not speciation,
01:10:58it's a hardcore sort of an adaptation that's occurred
01:11:02due to being separated, where you're no longer able
01:11:06to go back to your original habitat.
01:11:09Is there a name for this?
01:11:10- I don't know that there's a name for this specifically.
01:11:12I mean, I think that though,
01:11:13this is basically the setup for speciation,
01:11:16because what do you do in that situation, right?
01:11:18- You're locked into your new environment.
01:11:20- Yeah, it would be too dangerous for people from Mars
01:11:23to interact with people from Earth.
01:11:25And the other thing that's gonna happen is over time,
01:11:28the microbes on Mars are going to be mutating,
01:11:31adapting, changing.
01:11:33You're gonna get new infectious diseases on Mars
01:11:36that don't exist on Earth.
01:11:37They will evolve uniquely there.
01:11:39Even just the bacteria in our microbiome are gonna change
01:11:43by being on Mars, right?
01:11:45I mean, they're also exposed to a lot of radiation.
01:11:47They've also gone through a population bottleneck.
01:11:50So now it becomes dangerous for people from Earth
01:11:53to interact with people from Mars,
01:11:54'cause they've got germs that we're not used to.
01:11:57So what do you do?
01:11:58I think you enforce quarantine.
01:11:59You don't allow or you very greatly reduce--
01:12:03- Quarantina, yeah.
01:12:04- Exactly, so if you don't have close contact
01:12:09between people from Earth and people from Mars,
01:12:12you are accelerating how fast speciation will happen.
01:12:16- Yeah, because there's no cross, I mean, when is this?
01:12:18- I guess, you know, the Homo Florencius would have had that
01:12:23too because they simply couldn't go back.
01:12:25It wasn't that they didn't choose to go back.
01:12:27It's that they couldn't go back.
01:12:28But that being said, are we really going to be able
01:12:31to get rockets that can do the round trip?
01:12:34That doesn't seem very likely
01:12:35until we start mining stuff on Mars.
01:12:37What, you're gonna have a rocket that's going to be able
01:12:39to take people and all the payload and all of the stuff
01:12:42that's needed out there,
01:12:44and you're going to be able to have enough fuel,
01:12:47I guess getting off at one third Earth's gravity
01:12:49is probably going to be a little easier.
01:12:50- It's a little easier to get off of Mars
01:12:52'cause as you said, it's lower gravity, that's right.
01:12:56And it is conceivable that we can
01:12:59just manufacture rocket fuel there, right?
01:13:01So you can actually take carbon dioxide and split it.
01:13:04You've got oxygen, that's your accelerant.
01:13:08So yeah, so you can potentially make rocket fuel there
01:13:12on Mars and get back.
01:13:14But again, I don't think the challenge
01:13:16is going to be technological.
01:13:18I think it's going to be biological.
01:13:19I think the risk to people of going back and forth
01:13:22and getting sick is going to keep people from doing it.
01:13:24- Well, there's the biological,
01:13:28there's the sort of immunological part here.
01:13:31There's genes, but there's also memes.
01:13:34But what about a changing culture?
01:13:36What do you imagine a culture of Mars would look like?
01:13:38'Cause this is a culture that's going to be forged
01:13:40under scarcity and danger and dependence and darkness, perhaps.
01:13:46It's going to be pretty different.
01:13:48- Yeah, I know.
01:13:49It's, I mean, I think it's probably impossible for us
01:13:53to know, I think other than saying
01:13:54it would be very different, right?
01:13:56So yeah, I think it would have to be self-contained
01:13:59because there's not going to be as much interaction
01:14:01because of the communication delays.
01:14:03So I think it would be a unique thing.
01:14:05And humans have done this type of thing over and over again.
01:14:08We reinvent ourselves, a culture rapidly changes
01:14:12when we have people that go off to a new place,
01:14:17even just for short periods of time.
01:14:19I'm thinking about like, you go on a trip with somebody
01:14:22and you come back with inside jokes, right?
01:14:24You know, it happens fast.
01:14:26But yeah, I think people would be culturally different
01:14:29quite rapidly if they're living on Mars.
01:14:31- Dude, it's so fascinating.
01:14:37The fact that this is my job,
01:14:38that I get to speak to you and call this a job
01:14:40is absolutely mind-blowing.
01:14:41This is so interesting to me.
01:14:43Okay, but I guess the cultural evolution thing
01:14:46is going to feed back into the biological evolution.
01:14:49So you're tightening this divergence loop.
01:14:51You've got the concerns from the biome,
01:14:55the concerns about getting infected.
01:14:58I guess, what are the interesting ethical challenges
01:15:03that we've got here?
01:15:05- Well, there's some pretty serious ones.
01:15:09I mean, here's the thing,
01:15:10like you and I could decide that we're comfortable
01:15:14with the risk of going to Mars, right?
01:15:16And there are plenty of people who I've spoken with
01:15:19who are like, yep, I would absolutely sign up to go.
01:15:21- Is it fair to condemn the future progeny?
01:15:23- Yeah, exactly.
01:15:24What happens when you're talking about bringing a child
01:15:26into the world who not only is living
01:15:29in a very dangerous environment,
01:15:32but they might not ever be able to go back to earth.
01:15:35That to me is a totally different level of effort.
01:15:40That's an ethical consideration.
01:15:42So one thing we haven't really talked about
01:15:44is the idea that, well, rather than just sort of
01:15:46let natural selection, let evolution do its thing,
01:15:50maybe what we would do is take matters into our own hands
01:15:54and use CRISPR, use biological
01:15:59and genetic engineering techniques to facilitate,
01:16:03to make it easier for people to deal
01:16:05with the extreme conditions there.
01:16:08And obviously there's important ethical considerations
01:16:11about altering our genetics,
01:16:14especially if you're talking about altering
01:16:17unborn children, future generations.
01:16:19But in some ways though, the ethics are sort of
01:16:23maybe reversed compared to how we would think
01:16:25about this on earth.
01:16:26Because if you had the ability to alleviate suffering
01:16:31of an unborn child or of future generations,
01:16:35and if you didn't do that, is that ethical?
01:16:38- This is the entire argument that is put forward
01:16:40by the embryo selection crowd,
01:16:42which is as soon as you say that protecting against
01:16:45something that's really horrendous,
01:16:48some genetic defect that would cause you to be in pain
01:16:53or not live a flourishing life or whatever,
01:16:55even myopia, right?
01:16:57Even if you were to say, we're able to select against
01:17:00people that don't have good eyesight.
01:17:02If you had, why do you think that lasik and glasses exist?
01:17:05Because people want those traits.
01:17:08So if you have the opportunity to select against
01:17:09negative ones, you immediately open up the door for,
01:17:12it's a single parallel, it's a single spectrum
01:17:15from select against negative traits
01:17:17to select for positive traits.
01:17:19And that does seem the ethical thing to do.
01:17:21Now, as soon as you get into genetic enhancement,
01:17:25that becomes a very different game.
01:17:27To me, ethically, as of yet, I haven't,
01:17:30I'm convinced on the value of embryo selection.
01:17:33Herocyte is wonderful company that's doing great things
01:17:36in the space that Johnny that runs it is just spectacular.
01:17:39I'm yet to hear an argument for genetic enhancement
01:17:45that doesn't make my toes curl underneath.
01:17:48- Well, and part of it I think is because the question is,
01:17:51okay, you're arguing that this person's life
01:17:53is going to be better, but are there other ways
01:17:56that you could make that person's life better
01:17:58without making a genetic alteration, right?
01:18:01Without making such a permanent change.
01:18:04And so I think any of the potential changes
01:18:08that we might make for a person here on earth,
01:18:11in most cases, we have other ways of protecting them
01:18:15from that risk or improving their lives
01:18:18in that particular way.
01:18:20For a child born on Mars,
01:18:22thinking about the gravity environment
01:18:23or the radiation environment, right?
01:18:26There might not be any better way of doing it.
01:18:28So if that's the case, and if they don't have a choice,
01:18:30if that's the only place that they can live,
01:18:33I think it might be different.
01:18:34Now, I'm not saying that we definitely should do that,
01:18:36but I think that the ethics are, I think,
01:18:39somewhat distinct when you're talking about, you know,
01:18:42having a situation where people don't have the option
01:18:45of getting out of that situation, right?
01:18:48You don't have a way to get away from the risk.
01:18:51But, you know--
01:18:53- So there's multiple levels of ethics here.
01:18:54Is it ethical to condemn your future generations
01:18:57and progeny to live on this environment,
01:18:59which is going to be really inhospitable
01:19:01and they've got to be underground,
01:19:02and maybe they're going to flourish less?
01:19:04Well, as soon as you do that,
01:19:07is it now incumbent on you
01:19:08to start manipulating their genomes
01:19:10so that they can survive this prison
01:19:13that you had put them into more effectively than if they,
01:19:16you know, it's a real domino.
01:19:19- Well, and then there's the added on top of that
01:19:22is the possibility that by making those changes,
01:19:26you might be improving their ability
01:19:28to thrive in that environment,
01:19:30but you might simultaneously--
01:19:32- Condemn them from being able to go back home.
01:19:33- Exactly. - Oh, dude, it's a mess.
01:19:35It's such a mess.
01:19:37Oh, my Lord.
01:19:38What are you supposed to do?
01:19:40- There's a lot of things, well, you know,
01:19:42we don't have to go.
01:19:43- Well, then we're condemning ourselves
01:19:46to being single planetary species
01:19:47and we just need one neutron star
01:19:50to go off at the wrong angle and then we're done for.
01:19:52- So, I mean, this is the question
01:19:54that I ultimately wrestled with
01:19:55in researching and writing this book is, you know,
01:19:59I wanted to really understand what would happen, right?
01:20:02What would be, if we go down this route
01:20:04of people living beyond Earth,
01:20:07what should we expect will happen to those people
01:20:10in future generations?
01:20:11That's what the book's all about.
01:20:12But throughout this, I sort of really struggled with like,
01:20:15okay, given what we know,
01:20:18is this a path we should be pursuing?
01:20:20Like, is this the right thing to do?
01:20:22And you're making a good point that like,
01:20:25in the long run, we might have to
01:20:28because we've got all our eggs
01:20:29in one, you know, planetary basket here.
01:20:32So that's risky.
01:20:35But the next question is, when?
01:20:38What's the timeframe for this, right?
01:20:41And so to me, it's not that we should never go.
01:20:44I think eventually, if we didn't do that,
01:20:47we would be dooming ourselves to extinction.
01:20:51It's a matter of how quickly should we be pushing this?
01:20:54And so, you know, people differ, I think,
01:20:59if you ask them about like, how urgent,
01:21:01how pressing a need is this?
01:21:03Personally, I think we need to have answers
01:21:07to some of these unanswered questions like reproduction,
01:21:09right, what happens to, you know, a child conceived
01:21:13and born and raised in a one third gravity
01:21:15high radiation environment?
01:21:17I don't think it makes sense for us to go there
01:21:19until we really have good answers
01:21:21to those types of questions.
01:21:24But the ethical things, the politics,
01:21:26the psychology that we've been talking about,
01:21:27all of these are things we should be studying this, right?
01:21:30Like we need to know, and the technology is advancing,
01:21:34the rockets are flying.
01:21:37Let's do the experiments and research
01:21:40that we need to, you know, to answer these questions
01:21:44that, you know, is more life sciences, more biology,
01:21:47more, you know, psychology, microbiology,
01:21:49all these cool things, yeah.
01:21:51- Scott Solomon, ladies and gentlemen.
01:21:52Dude, you are spectacular, you are so fun.
01:21:56I think-- - Thanks, this has been great.
01:21:58- What an awesome topic to talk about.
01:22:00Where should people go?
01:22:01They're gonna wanna check out everything you're doing
01:22:03by the book, all the rest of it?
01:22:05- Yeah, yeah, so I mean, the book is available now.
01:22:08It's "Becoming Martian" and MIT Press.
01:22:12So yeah, you know, check it out.
01:22:14We did a streaming series too.
01:22:16It's also called "Becoming Martian."
01:22:17That's on CuriosityStream, which was a lot of fun.
01:22:21But I've also got a podcast.
01:22:23My podcast is called "Wild World" and it's all about
01:22:26field work and exploration right here on Earth.
01:22:29So yeah, check that out too.
01:22:31- Heck yeah.
01:22:32Scott, I appreciate you, man, until next time.
01:22:34- Thank you so much, this has been so much fun.
01:22:36- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:22:39Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:22:41by the internet just yet.
01:22:43Here's another one that you should watch.
01:22:46Go on.