How to Stay in Love with Your Soul Mate, with Special Guest Ester Brooks
DDr. Arthur Brooks
MarriageSmall Business/StartupsMental Health
Transcript
00:00:00I went home after one week together.
00:00:02I said, Dad, I think I met the girl I'm going to marry.
00:00:04And he said, great.
00:00:04I said, well, there's some difficulty.
00:00:07She doesn't speak English.
00:00:08She doesn't live in the United States.
00:00:10And she made it known to me that she doesn't believe in marriage.
00:00:13I met you, and I had that strong intuition that you were trustworthy.
00:00:18And I fell in love with you.
00:00:20I sold my trumpet.
00:00:22I sold my old car that I had.
00:00:25And I bought a ticket to go to New York.
00:00:27And I lied to everybody because I didn't want to admit the reason I was going to New York was to see a boy.
00:00:33To see a boy.
00:00:34Esther and I have been married for 35 years come November.
00:00:38And it's been an amazing adventure in love and in life.
00:00:44And we want to talk about that today.
00:00:46But not only that.
00:00:47We want to talk about how to stay in love.
00:00:50Me, from a more scientific aspect.
00:00:51And her, Esther, from her background, which is in theology.
00:00:57We want to talk about how to stay in love and happiness.
00:00:58We want to talk about how to stay in love and happiness.
00:01:00We want to talk about how to stay in love and happiness.
00:01:02We want to talk about how to stay in love and happiness.
00:01:03Hi, friends.
00:01:04Welcome to Office Hours.
00:01:05I'm Arthur Brooks.
00:01:06This is a show about love and happiness.
00:01:08About lifting people up in ideas of happiness using science.
00:01:13I want you to take these ideas and share them with other people.
00:01:15That's why I have been doing this show over the past year.
00:01:18And I hope you've been enjoying it.
00:01:19Thank you so very much for following this show in all of its different formats and all of its different ideas.
00:01:24Thank you for feeding back and giving me criticism and ideas.
00:01:27And so many of the episodes that we're doing these days are actually on the basis of your comments and questions, including today's.
00:01:35As a matter of fact, but I'll get into that in a second.
00:01:37As always, if you like this, please do recommend it to a million or two of your closest personal friends.
00:01:42That's what actually makes this show spread.
00:01:44And that's how, by word of mouth, we're actually getting around with Office Hours, bringing more happiness to other people.
00:01:50This is one of the ways that you can be a happiness teacher, just like me, giving people the ideas that they can use.
00:01:55As always, please feed back.
00:01:57The website for this and all other areas of happiness in our domain is arthurbrooks.com.
00:02:03And you can write to the email address, officehours at arthurbrooks.com.
00:02:08Don't forget to leave a review on Spotify or Apple and subscribe on your platform of choice.
00:02:15If you want to go deeper on any of the, on this material, you can get it through my newsletter,
00:02:20which comes to your inbox every Friday.
00:02:22It's completely free as three to 500 words.
00:02:25It includes the deepest science with references on happiness and also a bunch of stupid jokes.
00:02:32Why would you want to miss any of that?
00:02:34Also, if you want to get together in person with other people who are in this field and interested
00:02:39in improving their lives and other people's lives as well, you can go to a retreat.
00:02:41We're actually offering a lot of retreats these days.
00:02:44Go to retreats.arthurbrooks.com and find out ways that you can actually get together with
00:02:49people who share this kind of interest.
00:02:52Okay.
00:02:53Today's show, what are we going to be talking about?
00:02:54Well, in, you know, pursuing a theme that a lot of you have asked about, a lot of you want
00:03:00to know more about love.
00:03:02And I talk about love a lot.
00:03:03As a matter of fact, I have a book in the works called Falling in Love and Staying in Love.
00:03:07And most of you know that I've done several episodes on the amazing neuroscience and behavioral
00:03:12science of falling and staying in love.
00:03:15But today I want to talk about it in a slightly different way, in a more personal way, maybe
00:03:19a more practical way as well, by bringing in my teacher on love.
00:03:25And you can see her right here.
00:03:28This is, uh, for those of you who follow my newsletter, this is the famous Mrs. B, which
00:03:33stands for Brooks, as you might've known.
00:03:36Actually, her last name is Moon Brooks hyphenated, where Moon is her ancestral and family name.
00:03:42And Esther and I've been married for 35 years, come November, and it's been an amazing adventure
00:03:51in love and in life.
00:03:53And we want to talk about that today.
00:03:55But not only that, we want to talk about how we are moving in our own lives, our adult lives,
00:04:02into a space of teaching about how to stay in love.
00:04:05Me, from a more scientific aspect, and her, Esther, from her background, which is what she's
00:04:12done her graduate training in, which is in theology, of all things, very different than what I've
00:04:17done in that, as the Proverbs say, iron sharpen iron.
00:04:21When we have discussions about all manner of family life, marriage, I'm always talking about
00:04:27what the brain does, and she always talks about what Holy Scripture says, which is also
00:04:31very, very much based in modern philosophy.
00:04:34And that's been a good guide for us, and it's been really helpful for, we've found other
00:04:38people as well.
00:04:39We are taping this episode from New Mexico with the Modern Elder Academy.
00:04:44Great shout out to Chip Conley and his team, where we're doing a retreat.
00:04:49Esther and I are leading a retreat on how couples can stay in love.
00:04:52And we have a big number of couples who are actually here to talk about that, to learn the
00:04:56science, to learn the philosophy behind it.
00:04:58And we want to share some of that with you today.
00:05:01So welcome, welcome to office hours, your first time on the show.
00:05:03Wow.
00:05:04You said a lot of things I'm like, whew, really fast.
00:05:08Well, thank you.
00:05:09It's great to be here in your podcast.
00:05:12And in, are you a fan of the podcast?
00:05:13I'm a fan of the podcast.
00:05:15And I tell all my friends and all my million friends.
00:05:20Do you ever miss episodes?
00:05:22I do sometimes, but sorry.
00:05:24I mean, yeah, my plan is to listen to all of them, but I hear you at home.
00:05:28So I know what you're going to say.
00:05:29I do a walking podcast.
00:05:31Yeah.
00:05:31So you're a walking podcast, but it's great to be here to talk about relationships, to talk
00:05:36about how to make them better, deeper.
00:05:39It's a very important thing, not just selfishly for the couple, but also as a way to be an
00:05:48example for the world of love and knowing each other and understanding each other.
00:05:53I think that's what should be modeled more.
00:05:56And the best way to model that is in couples, in marriages, because marriage is not an easy
00:06:03thing.
00:06:04There's a lot of conflict.
00:06:06What?
00:06:07No.
00:06:07Okay.
00:06:08Well, not hours.
00:06:08No, no, I'm just kidding.
00:06:09We have a lot of conflict, a lot of-
00:06:11We have a high conflict, but high honesty.
00:06:13Yeah.
00:06:14And like I said, there's a lot of talking about things and ideas, and there's a lot of arguing
00:06:19about things and ideas and disagreeing about things.
00:06:23So, but that is part of going deeper into loving better, because whenever it's harder
00:06:32to love, that love becomes deeper and sacrificial in a way.
00:06:37And so better.
00:06:39It's not the easy love.
00:06:40It's just the love that is difficult.
00:06:43Most people who are in a couple or who want to be in a couple, they want to make it a permanent
00:06:51thing.
00:06:52There are very few people who are on their wedding day.
00:06:54They're like, yeah, no, tell death to us part.
00:06:56Yeah.
00:06:57Not really.
00:06:58I mean, they really think that.
00:06:59They really, really want that.
00:07:00So, one of the things we'll be talking about today is, you know, what are the aspects of
00:07:04a marriage that kind of make it permanent?
00:07:06And that's how we feel about it.
00:07:08I mean, 35 years is a long time.
00:07:10We've basically grew up together.
00:07:12You know, I was, what's your joke?
00:07:14You know, I was going to say the joke.
00:07:16I saw the look on your face.
00:07:18Well, no, I mean, 35 years, but it really felt like 10 minutes.
00:07:22Isn't it?
00:07:23Right?
00:07:23Underwater though.
00:07:25It's like living with a Catskill standup comedian from the fifties, but with a Spanish accent.
00:07:30It's usually mess up the joke because I can't say the expression correctly.
00:07:34No, it's fantastic.
00:07:34It doesn't matter.
00:07:35Are you kidding?
00:07:35They're all cracking up out there in podcast land.
00:07:38I want to get into a little bit about, you know, how we met, but the first point that
00:07:43I want to make is that for us, you know, 35 years is the first 35 years and we're ride
00:07:49or die.
00:07:50I mean, we're, this is it.
00:07:52This is it.
00:07:52We're like wood storks, right?
00:07:54You know, these species where if they lose a mate, the other one's alone and they mate
00:07:59for life.
00:07:59And that's how we really feel about it.
00:08:00Now, I realized that not everybody has been able to experience this and I'm not making a
00:08:05moral statement about people whose relationships have failed or whose marriages have failed because
00:08:10in point of fact, that happens.
00:08:12That's over the ordinary course of life.
00:08:15What I want to talk about is the fact that I feel that we're very, very fortunate and that
00:08:19most people in a relationship would like that more.
00:08:21And so we want to talk about scientifically and philosophically and theologically some of the
00:08:26principles behind that.
00:08:27And this is the first of a series, I think, on what we're actually going to do.
00:08:31And that you touch on a subject that we're going to talk about in the retreat about the
00:08:36subject of trust.
00:08:38Yeah.
00:08:38And how trust requires that you don't know 100% that that thing's going to work.
00:08:44Yeah.
00:08:44So in order to trust, there's a risk.
00:08:47Right.
00:08:47And that's what we did.
00:08:49We took a risk and we trusted each other.
00:08:52Boy, did we.
00:08:53Boy, did we.
00:08:53Tell the story.
00:08:54I mean, how did we meet?
00:08:55Oh, how we met.
00:08:57Well, okay.
00:08:58So let's go back.
00:08:59Yeah.
00:08:59I grew up in a family where there was not a lot of trust.
00:09:03When I was six years old, my dad left us.
00:09:06And, and so my mom had to raise us by herself.
00:09:09And so there's like that idea that I grew up with that you cannot trust men.
00:09:14Men are kind of like a little flaky.
00:09:16And a lot of the relationships of my friends and the people around me were like
00:09:21that, oh, don't trust a hundred percent.
00:09:23And so what was so amazing about meeting you was that you and I both together
00:09:30decided we're going to trust each other.
00:09:31How could you have possibly known that given the fact that we met when I was 24
00:09:35and you were 25 and you didn't speak a single word of English and I didn't
00:09:39speak a single word of Spanish and you lived in Barcelona and I lived in New
00:09:42York.
00:09:42I mean, how, how the beauty of it.
00:09:44I didn't know, I just wanted to do it.
00:09:47So was this just wishful thinking and, and, and foolhardiness and bad
00:09:51judgment and being imprudent or was there more to it?
00:09:54At the beginning, probably that was it.
00:09:56Right.
00:09:56I don't know.
00:09:57How would you say that?
00:09:57Like a strong attraction.
00:09:59And again, I don't like to talk about feelings very much because they have
00:10:04misguided me many times in my life.
00:10:07So, but there was that God feeling, uh, passing, um, that I, I had to trust you,
00:10:13like that I wanted you to be my man and to take care of me and that, uh, I wanted
00:10:20you to be, you wanted to take care of me and I wanted to take care of you.
00:10:23And I wanted you to trust me.
00:10:25I want to, I desired that so much, but I had to risk, you know, it was not like a
00:10:32hundred percent sure that you were going to be good to me, but I had to take that risk.
00:10:37Which by the way, it was a big risk given the fact that you'd never met really a good man.
00:10:40Yeah, because I, I have an experience, but, but you know.
00:10:43Men are not honest.
00:10:44Men are men and women were not very honest and it was not about honesty.
00:10:48It was about, it's okay to follow your feelings.
00:10:52It's okay to follow your emotions and your, your passions.
00:10:55And if you really have this attraction for this other person, why shouldn't you go with that
00:11:01person and have really, even if you're already in relationship, you're already married.
00:11:05So I grew up in this environment.
00:11:07That's like feeling is like, that's it.
00:11:09You know, if it feels good, it has to be right.
00:11:12But I always knew deep down that that was not right.
00:11:16That there was something more important than those body, uh, animal impulses.
00:11:23And thank you scientists, you're putting the right words in my mouth.
00:11:27So, um, so I knew there was something more important than there was something of the heart.
00:11:32And if we talk about love, we can talk about what I mean by the heart, not just passing emotions,
00:11:38but something deeper and that, and that includes making decisions, even though you
00:11:44don't have all the reasons why you should make that decision.
00:11:48Our audience is going to be noticing a little tension here, which is the tension
00:11:52between two things that you've talked about.
00:11:54Number one is not trusting your feelings.
00:11:56And the other is actually trusting your feelings.
00:11:58No, I, I said, I got, I know, okay, okay.
00:12:02Some, that's deeper than, than the, the, the passions of the body, that deeper thing that,
00:12:10that has a little bit of reason, by the way, it's not just completely a hundred percent blind.
00:12:15I knew you a little bit, even though I didn't speak English and didn't speak Spanish.
00:12:19There was some evidence that you were trustworthy.
00:12:24Is that the correct word?
00:12:25Okay.
00:12:26So there was a little bit of evidence.
00:12:28Yeah.
00:12:29So it's not completely like a feeling.
00:12:31But the reason they're bringing out that tension is because I've interviewed a lot of
00:12:36entrepreneurs, a lot of stuff.
00:12:37I mean, I'm a business school professor.
00:12:39I've interviewed a lot of startup people in my time, and they always talk about a business
00:12:45venture, the way you just talked about our marriage, the way that you talked about a relationship,
00:12:49which is like, you don't just go after every crazy thing because you're not a sentimentalist.
00:12:53But on the other hand, you got a big gut feeling about this thing and you're willing to take
00:12:57risk in return for an explosive return.
00:13:00See, this is the thing.
00:13:01That's this belief that something down the road is going to have these big returns as
00:13:05opposed to the feelings that will give you a nice sentiment right now.
00:13:10And is that tension that you can't quite sort out that is in the right hemisphere of your
00:13:15brain, a complex question that's understood without being solved?
00:13:18That is the essence of entrepreneurship.
00:13:19And this is lesson number one that I want everybody to get falling in love is an entrepreneurial
00:13:25act.
00:13:26You have to find that balance between the gut feeling of an explosive return with adequate
00:13:31risk and not falling prey to chasing every shiny lure.
00:13:36And that's kind of what it came down to.
00:13:41Absolutely.
00:13:42I never say that, but now I say it.
00:13:44Well, that's because I teach at a business school and you do something else.
00:13:49Absolutely.
00:13:50And you teach other stuff.
00:13:51Okay.
00:13:52Now we took some time to actually get to know each other and, um, we didn't get married
00:13:58immediately.
00:13:58It took us a couple of years, which was more about you than it was about me.
00:14:02You know, it's funny because a lot of people watching, they have these caricatures of men
00:14:05and women and gender differences where women just like put a ring on it.
00:14:08And dudes are like, no man, no man.
00:14:10Well, for us, I knew I wanted to marry you a week after I met you.
00:14:14I told my dad, I went home to the United States.
00:14:17We met for purposes of background.
00:14:19We met at a music festival in France.
00:14:21We were both professional musicians, classical musicians in those days.
00:14:24And I went home after one week together.
00:14:27Our first date was on Bastille day in 1988, July 14th in Dijon, France, of all places.
00:14:33How romantic I went home and I said, dad, I think I met the girl I'm going to marry.
00:14:37And he said, great.
00:14:37I said, well, there's some difficulties.
00:14:40She doesn't speak English.
00:14:41She doesn't live in the United States.
00:14:43And she made it known to me that she doesn't believe in marriage.
00:14:46Isn't that sophisticated?
00:14:47Isn't that fancy?
00:14:49Very European of you.
00:14:52And, and so I set about with a pretty entrepreneurial plan is what it came down to.
00:14:56And I, you know, you came and visited me in New York over the next few months, which was a very, very risky thing to do.
00:15:03You know, you sold all your possessions to Dubai because you had no money.
00:15:07I had no money.
00:15:07I was a musician, very little work, very little money, you know, as a musician in, in Barcelona, in Spain.
00:15:14And, um, but I met you and I had that strong intuition that you were trustworthy and, um, I fell in love with you.
00:15:22And I decided to sell my, I used to be a trumpet player.
00:15:27I, um, I sold my trumpet.
00:15:29I sold my old car that I had and I bought a ticket to go to New York.
00:15:34And I lied to everybody because I didn't want to admit the reason I was going to New York was to see a boy, to see a boy that I had just met, uh, in, in the summer.
00:15:45So I told everybody I was going to New York to buy a new trumpet, a Giardinelli trumpet.
00:15:51That's the lamest thing I've ever heard.
00:15:52And that's the lamest thing have you ever heard, but people believe that I think.
00:15:56Your mother probably didn't.
00:15:57My mother probably didn't.
00:15:58Anyway.
00:15:59So then I did that.
00:16:00I sold everything.
00:16:01I didn't have any money.
00:16:02And the little, the, the, I just sold the things that, that were more valuable.
00:16:06And I came to New York to see you.
00:16:08And I remember that I landed in New York city coming first time in America for me.
00:16:14I was what, 25 years old and, um, and I, I remember landing in New York and thinking, I hope he is picking me up because if he's not picking me up, I not sure what I'm going to do.
00:16:27Where am I going to go in New York?
00:16:28I like a girl that doesn't really speak a lot of English.
00:16:32By the time I came to New York, I had studied a little bit of it.
00:16:34You had kind of a feral intelligence about you growing up in your working class neighborhood in a broken family in poverty.
00:16:41Anyway.
00:16:41You would have taken care of yourself.
00:16:42You would have been fine.
00:16:42Yeah, I just had a phone number of a friend of a friend of a friend who lived in New York in case this didn't work, but he was there waiting for me at the airport.
00:16:51I was there.
00:16:52Not the, not the friend of the friend.
00:16:53Not the friend.
00:16:53You, you were there waiting for me.
00:16:56And, and that was one more clue that I was doing the right thing.
00:17:01Yeah.
00:17:01I mean, amazing to me that, that, that you would have wondered.
00:17:04I mean, it was like, it.
00:17:06You had a lot of hair.
00:17:06Oh yeah.
00:17:07No, I could have had like.
00:17:08Yeah, a lot of hair.
00:17:09You had that thingy, that scarf.
00:17:10Yeah, a scarf and the whole thing.
00:17:12I mean, it's, it's like, it is shocking.
00:17:13You saw pictures of me when I was 24.
00:17:16Love is blind.
00:17:18No, I mean, yeah.
00:17:20But anyway, you would look handsome now.
00:17:21Yeah.
00:17:21So anyway, so that, that was it.
00:17:23That was like, yeah.
00:17:24Entrepreneurial and, and, and, and very exciting.
00:17:28We were apart for most of a year with some, with some visits in between.
00:17:32I came to Barcelona after that, to visit you.
00:17:34Um, and I didn't tell you, but I had been figuring out a way that I could move to Barcelona by taking a job in the Barcelona City Orchestra, in the symphony orchestra in Barcelona.
00:17:43And I auditioned for it and got it.
00:17:46And you said, what, and so you're coming to Barcelona, but great, great.
00:17:50Let's make a life together.
00:17:51Let's actually make a life together.
00:17:53Even though I didn't, I didn't accept, I didn't admit it, but that's what I want.
00:17:57I got rid of my stuff and we had two boxes, two cardboard boxes.
00:18:01I had $50 took to my name, which just shows, you know, what good financial planning I had made by the age of, by that time I was 25 years old and I moved to Barcelona and I was setting about a greater plan, which was not just to be with a woman I was in love with, but to make the rest of my life.
00:18:17And I didn't know because you still were of the belief that we wouldn't get married at that time.
00:18:21Right.
00:18:21I didn't believe it.
00:18:22What were we going to do in your building?
00:18:23What was I going to do?
00:18:23I was going to move to Barcelona.
00:18:24Your boyfriend is going to be there.
00:18:25Where were we going to live day to day, man?
00:18:27Is that what it was?
00:18:28Just like all my friends, just like I saw everybody around me, just day by day, no commitment, nothing.
00:18:35And one of the things-
00:18:36And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out?
00:18:37It doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
00:18:38And the more I could understand your words, the more I learned English and use Spanish and we were able to communicate deeper, the more I saw that what you valued is exactly what I wanted.
00:18:51And so little by little I understood, I was understanding that that thing that I couldn't express well in me, that was you.
00:19:00That was that commitment, that relationship, that trust.
00:19:03And even though I would not admit it, I didn't want to get married, remember?
00:19:07You said you didn't believe in marriage.
00:19:09It was a philosophical belief.
00:19:10Just a contract and all these things.
00:19:14Hey, you don't need a piece of paper.
00:19:16I don't need a piece of paper to love you.
00:19:18Yeah.
00:19:19So, but anyway, but one day you came and-
00:19:22By the time I thought I could really close the deal, finally.
00:19:24Yeah, we had been living together for a couple of years.
00:19:26Couple of years.
00:19:27And you came and you got on one knee in front of me, you were shaking, I remember.
00:19:32I was still a little scared.
00:19:33And you asked me to marry you and I had no doubt, I saw clearly, you know, like the scales fell off my eyes and I saw truth and beauty and goodness.
00:19:45And I saw that, I saw that, and of course I said yes.
00:19:50I didn't say, okay, let me think about, I just up immediately.
00:19:53You updated your philosophy?
00:19:54That's what, I have been wanting my whole life.
00:19:58I just didn't know that that's what I wanted.
00:20:00But what, did you change your view about whether marriage per se was important?
00:20:04I mean, because marriage really is, at that point, a piece of paper.
00:20:08Was it, what was it about the piece of paper?
00:20:10What was it about the public commitment per se?
00:20:13When we are young-
00:20:14By the way, we believe it's a sacrament because we're Catholic people, but that's, you know.
00:20:18Years later we have a different view of, yeah.
00:20:21But in the, at that time, I think young people, we let our brain be washed by something because we don't have the maturity to have our own ideas, our own analysis, our own thinking about things.
00:20:38And so whatever we hear that kind of sounds good, we go, we adhere to that.
00:20:43Whatever it is, it's, you know, it can be feminism, which is, that was me.
00:20:47It can be religion, it can be meditation, yoga, I don't know.
00:20:53It can be like business, like make a lot of money, whatever sounds good to you.
00:20:58You go there and say, that's who I am.
00:21:00But there is no reflection, no bringing down, right?
00:21:03But truth is in our heart.
00:21:06We just need to dig into our hearts and just little by little get there.
00:21:11With the information that we have, our experiences, and the truth that is in our heart, we get to the real truth.
00:21:18Okay, so in that, at that time, my brainwash was all about feminism and when be a strong woman, independent, I didn't want to need anybody.
00:21:28And you don't believe there's anything wrong with being a strong woman and independent, do you?
00:21:31No, but I saw, I see now the beauty of some, of letting somebody take care of me.
00:21:37And I didn't understand that.
00:21:39While you took care of that person.
00:21:41Well, I take care, yes, but that comes later.
00:21:43I'm a selfish individuals, it's better for me that you take care of me, but I know I also have to take care of you.
00:21:51But, but, okay, I don't know where I was going with all that, but just the fact that when we are young, we don't have our, really our own thinking about things.
00:22:01We just absorb what other people say and we go with one or the other one, depending on what feels good, which that's a very superficial thing.
00:22:09That was me.
00:22:10And then when I saw truth, little by little, knowing you, and, and I saw the truth and the beauty of you wanting to commit to me because you wanted to love me for the rest of your, of your life and my life, whoever dies first, then I saw truth and that was it.
00:22:30You know, what did I see in you, I'm 24 year old boy.
00:22:34So I see the most beautiful one I've ever seen.
00:22:37No, truly.
00:22:38I mean, it was as smiling at me, which, you know, this is great.
00:22:41And I've done shows on the neurobiological cascade of falling in love, which starts with attraction, right?
00:22:48It really does, which is why we want to be attractive to each other.
00:22:50I mean, no matter how emancipated we are from these structures of society, we want to be attracted to each other.
00:22:56You're super, super attracted to me.
00:22:58But as soon as I knew you, I knew you're a serious person.
00:23:00You were, you were, you were a person who was all about life, who really wanted to do things right.
00:23:05You're a person of super high honesty and integrity.
00:23:08You didn't lie to me and you weren't silly.
00:23:11I noticed that you were never engaged in stupid conversations about trivialities.
00:23:15You went right to the core of it.
00:23:17And which was, I just wanted that seriousness.
00:23:19I wanted it.
00:23:20Plus, you were super funny.
00:23:22You were super funny.
00:23:23You had this great sense of humor.
00:23:25You really cracked me up.
00:23:26Which is very important.
00:23:27Yeah, I know.
00:23:28Beauty, honesty, humor.
00:23:30And that was the whole, these were these incredible things that I actually wanted.
00:23:33And very quickly, what I figured out by the time we could actually talk to each other was
00:23:37that you completed me, that you made me more the person that I wanted to be.
00:23:43And, and, and by the way, there's a lot of things that I don't like about myself.
00:23:47I don't like about myself that I'm just, you know, Hey, everybody, look at me.
00:23:51I don't like the fact that I'm so attracted to trying to find the admiration of other people.
00:23:55And you were never like that.
00:23:57Everybody cares what other people think of them.
00:23:59You care a lot less.
00:24:00You're the kind of person who walks past a shop window and doesn't look.
00:24:05No, I looked.
00:24:05Not always.
00:24:06I mean, it's a lot less than people that I know.
00:24:08And you're not thinking all the time.
00:24:11What does that person actually think of me?
00:24:12And the result of it is that you're a truly independent thinker.
00:24:16You're the first person I ever met that was a completely independent thinker.
00:24:21And that was amazing.
00:24:22Now, that didn't mean that I agreed with you.
00:24:24I don't believe in marriage.
00:24:24I disagreed.
00:24:26I had a counter hypothesis, which is that I could actually change that.
00:24:30Thank God it worked.
00:24:31Okay.
00:24:31So we get married.
00:24:32It's 1991 by this time when we get married.
00:24:34And for all of you younger folks, that's 1991 was, I think it was the same year that the cotton
00:24:39gin was invented.
00:24:42And fast forward, I mean, yada, yada, yada, as they say in Seinfeld, we have 20 moves.
00:24:47I'm changing careers a lot worse.
00:24:49We moved, we lived in 20 houses together since we got married.
00:24:53The witness protection program is a heck of a thing, isn't it?
00:24:55Yeah.
00:24:55Yeah.
00:24:56That's all because of you.
00:24:57Yeah.
00:24:58Because I was, because you are like, I can't hold a job.
00:25:03You can't stop moving, you can't stop doing new things.
00:25:05I can't stop doing new things.
00:25:06And that's one of the things that, it's a pain, but that's one of the things that attracted
00:25:10me about you, your focus, your ambition about things, which sometimes is hard and obsessive,
00:25:18but that's very attractive to me.
00:25:21Well, I mean, it was, it created a lot of conflict too.
00:25:23I mean, we were, we were living in Barcelona and, and at the time my ambition was to be the
00:25:27world's greatest French horn player.
00:25:28And we would go up to the Pyrenees camping and I would have to go away and find the field
00:25:32someplace where nobody was listening.
00:25:33So I could practice while we were camping on summer vacation and, and it drove you crazy.
00:25:38It's like, take a day off.
00:25:39Yeah.
00:25:39And I couldn't, and I can't, and so over the next decades, I've changed career a whole bunch
00:25:45of times and that required stability on the home front that you actually provided, which
00:25:49was a sacrifice.
00:25:51So we had two biological kids and adopted a third.
00:25:55They gradually grew up.
00:25:56We moved a whole bunch of times for my own career.
00:26:00And you, you were the primary caretaker for our children while I was gone a lot.
00:26:05I have some, you know, regrets actually about my performance as a father.
00:26:09I mean, not like I neglected my kids or was a jerk about it, but I was gone a lot because
00:26:14I was working on that.
00:26:15And then later, um, by the time our kids moved out, you started to do your own professional
00:26:20thing.
00:26:20This is when you went back to school, got your graduate degree in, in theology from the
00:26:24Augustine Institute in St. Louis, which is just like fancy place and learning all this stuff.
00:26:29It was amazing because you had gone from somebody who's super hyper progressive secular.
00:26:35I mean, you grew up in a Catholic country and you weren't Catholic.
00:26:38You'd never darkened the doorstep of a church.
00:26:40And I grew up in a Christian family.
00:26:42And I was serious about my Christian faith more and more so as I got through my twenties.
00:26:45And by this time we were married and in my thirties, and I was determined that we were
00:26:49going to have a Catholic family.
00:26:50This was a real prayer of mine that we could actually bring that home.
00:26:54I had this conversation with God at one point in my thirties when, you know, I'm kind of
00:26:58going to church and you're not, you're sleeping.
00:27:01And, and God, yeah.
00:27:03And, and I, I read, who was it who said it was some great saint?
00:27:05No, St. Monica, the father of St.
00:27:09Uh, Augustine, who, yeah, the mother and his, her mother was a super serious Christian and
00:27:15wanted her son to become a Christian.
00:27:16And, and so, and God said to her, stop talking to your son about me and start talking more
00:27:23to me about him.
00:27:25And so I said, mask advice.
00:27:27So that's what I did.
00:27:28Anyway, long story short, um, you became a lot more serious about your faith, um, and
00:27:32have become a real spiritual guru to me.
00:27:35And so a lot of what I talk about in the show and in my writing about religion in general,
00:27:39not just my Catholic faith, because my path is not the path that everybody is following,
00:27:44but everybody needs some sort of a metaphysical path or some philosophical path so they can
00:27:49transcend themselves.
00:27:50A great deal of that has actually come from you is the way that that works.
00:27:54And now we've been together for 37 years and we've been married for 35, which is an incredible
00:28:01thing, how time passes.
00:28:02Right?
00:28:03Yeah.
00:28:03So here's my question.
00:28:05You now write and talk about love from a philosophical standpoint.
00:28:10I write about it from an neurobiological standpoint.
00:28:13What is love?
00:28:16Very easy question.
00:28:17No, I love this subject.
00:28:18I love it.
00:28:19The heart is your specialty.
00:28:20I'm using, I'm using the word, uh, love, which in English we use for everything.
00:28:25Right.
00:28:26I love pizza.
00:28:27Well, this is important.
00:28:28We got one word for it.
00:28:29You have two in Spanish.
00:28:30Yeah.
00:28:31They have between seven and 11 and depending on how you count it in Greek.
00:28:34But to begin with, just like happiness, you always talk about happiness.
00:28:38It's not a feeling.
00:28:39Love also is not a feeling.
00:28:42That to begin with.
00:28:42That to begin with, that's it.
00:28:43It has feelings in it, but it's not just a feeling.
00:28:47Like happiness in so far is that feelings of happiness are evidence of happiness.
00:28:52Yeah.
00:28:52Like the smell of your turkey is evidence of Thanksgiving dinner or feelings of love, evidence
00:28:57of love.
00:28:58I think that feelings are evidence, but sometimes they're also, uh, they also help us in our
00:29:05process to love.
00:29:07So let me go to the definition of love so that we understand better, um, everybody understands
00:29:12better because another thing that I want to talk about our fulfillment, uh, as human beings
00:29:18can only be found in love.
00:29:21That's another idea that is very important to understand.
00:29:23That's a very heavy assertion.
00:29:24You talk a lot about happiness and you, and you talk a lot about research done on happiness
00:29:29by Harvard professors, et cetera.
00:29:32And you have a list of things that you can do to grow in happiness in your life.
00:29:37And then at the end is the most important one of all, which is to love.
00:29:41But are you saying that you can't be a happy person unless you fall in love and stay in
00:29:44love and have a perfect or close to perfect marriage?
00:29:46You're not saying that, right?
00:29:47No, I'm not saying that.
00:29:49That's good because not everybody gets that.
00:29:51No, because love is not just attained or found in a marriage.
00:29:56Love can be found in many, there's, you have contact with a lot of different people in
00:30:01your life, not just your husband or your wife or your partner.
00:30:05So first of all, that our fulfillment as human beings can only be found in love, not just marriage
00:30:10or not just a partner, but a friendship, your parents, your siblings, your coworkers.
00:30:17It's the people, because love, love needs at least two people, right?
00:30:22And all of us, we are creatures of God.
00:30:24So we are being part, part of God, right?
00:30:28Because we are creatures of God.
00:30:29So there is God there in love, of course, because God is love.
00:30:33So another thing important that to, uh, that I want to go to is we need to define what is
00:30:39love.
00:30:40Yeah.
00:30:41So we can start.
00:30:42Yeah.
00:30:43And, um, one of the best definitions of love is, um, the one by Thomas Aquinas, a great theologian
00:30:49philosopher of the 13th century who said that to love is to wield the good of the other.
00:30:53So pause on that just for a second, because I want to point out that a lot of people who
00:30:57are not Catholic and who are not religious, don't be put off by this.
00:31:01And part of the reason is because Thomas Aquinas, who is a great Catholic figure and theologian
00:31:06to be sure is one of the most important philosophical figures of the middle ages insofar as he introduced
00:31:12modern audiences to Aristotle.
00:31:14If you like Aristotle, it's cuz of Aquinas.
00:31:18Aristotle was not typically taught only Plato was, and he was the one who brought these Aristotelian
00:31:22ideas, which are not Christian ideas to modern audiences.
00:31:25So this is philosophy, not just theology.
00:31:28Right now, you're like Neo in the Matrix.
00:31:31You can keep scrolling, experiencing a simulation of life.
00:31:35Or you can wake up to how your attention is being harvested for profit.
00:31:39It's happening to people all over the world right now.
00:31:42You don't want to be productized like this anymore, but it's hard.
00:31:46Tech addiction is so potent because it's been designed to tap into your dopamine system.
00:31:51It's like heroin, porn, gambling.
00:31:53You've got the cravings.
00:31:54You're addicted.
00:31:55You don't like it, and I don't either.
00:31:57But I can't just tell you to stop doing it, that's hard.
00:32:00If you want to break free from the system, you need an incentive.
00:32:03Well, here's one: why don't you join a phone company that pays you not to use your phone?
00:32:09If you want to reduce brain rot, get Noble Mobile.
00:32:12It pays you to use less data.
00:32:14It gives you an incentive to unplug.
00:32:16Noble Mobile is the phone plan that finally aligns incentives with what's good for you.
00:32:21Use less data?
00:32:22Earn money back.
00:32:23And when you do, you'll be living once again in real life, and you're going to like how it feels.
00:32:28So you just defined love as to will the good of the other.
00:32:32And to act on it and to do something about it.
00:32:34It's not just a wishful thinking, okay?
00:32:37No, it's just willing the good of the other person and then do something about that.
00:32:41So this is more than an emotion, right?
00:32:44Yeah.
00:32:45You see that.
00:32:46An emotion is an activity of the limbic system.
00:32:48It would be horrible if it was nothing more than an emotion.
00:32:51The way I like to talk about this is so that it's not just a feeling, but it goes deeper.
00:32:57And I like to think of love as an experience of the heart, okay?
00:33:02The heart.
00:33:03The heart.
00:33:04Today, when we talk about, oh, my heart, it's all about emotions.
00:33:08Oh, my heart.
00:33:09I love you.
00:33:10Love my heart.
00:33:11It's all about emotions.
00:33:12But no, the heart is more than that.
00:33:13The heart is the whole person.
00:33:16The heart is the ultimate place of who we are.
00:33:23The center of our person.
00:33:25Your friend the Dalai Lama says that the ultimate source of a happy life is warm heartedness.
00:33:33Is that correct?
00:33:34He says that.
00:33:35So that makes us think.
00:33:36So he talks about the heart to have a warm heart.
00:33:39But this is a sentence that we can think about it a lot.
00:33:43What does that mean?
00:33:44Right?
00:33:45Okay.
00:33:46So I just leave it there.
00:33:47That's something that we can use to think about what love is.
00:33:51When is our heart warm?
00:33:53But I like to go also to think about the word heart in scripture.
00:33:58In the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament, the word heart in one way, one form or another
00:34:06is used more than a thousand times.
00:34:08Okay.
00:34:10And so, and it usually reflects the unity of the human being.
00:34:15So it's not a feeling, again, only an emotion, but it's the unity of the whole human being.
00:34:21And it includes three things.
00:34:23It includes in the heart.
00:34:25Okay.
00:34:26I'm talking about the heart.
00:34:27In the heart, we include what we know, our knowledge, our understanding, our thoughts,
00:34:33our reflections, our memory, our imagination, all of this is in our heart.
00:34:39We have in our heart, right?
00:34:41Our learning.
00:34:42When we learn in the heart, we also have what we desire, what we seek, what we feel also.
00:34:49But not what we feel temporarily, not like a short term feeling, but what we call the affections.
00:34:58Our affections are in the heart.
00:35:00And affection is a long lasting disposition that remains solid, even though the feelings pass
00:35:08away.
00:35:09But that affection stays there.
00:35:10And affections are always informed by reason.
00:35:14They are not just feelings like, like dumb feelings or, or completely uninformed feelings.
00:35:22Our affections are.
00:35:23You're not passing fancies.
00:35:25They are not passing.
00:35:26They are long lasting, even though sometimes feelings come and go.
00:35:30So the affection is the underlying disposition, the disposition of the human heart.
00:35:37Now for, for the, for our audience.
00:35:39Yeah.
00:35:39Oh, sorry.
00:35:40No, just for our audience.
00:35:41He's always interrupting me.
00:35:42Okay, go.
00:35:43I talk an awful lot about the hemispheric lateralization, the right and left hemispheres.
00:35:48The right hemisphere, which governs mystery and meaning.
00:35:51Yeah.
00:35:52That's a lot about how you're describing the heart.
00:35:53Yes.
00:35:54One point.
00:35:55That's very important to keep in mind.
00:35:56Let's do this later.
00:35:57For sure.
00:35:58But the, the heart is left biased and parts of the body that are on the left side of the
00:36:02body are more governed by the right hemisphere of the brain.
00:36:05That's why this big similarity comes around, right?
00:36:08So this is what the neurobiologically is probably not a coincidence that what I'm talking
00:36:13about, what you're talking about are very similar.
00:36:14Oh yeah.
00:36:15Okay.
00:36:16I didn't mean to interrupt you.
00:36:17Yeah.
00:36:18Yeah.
00:36:19Yeah.
00:36:20Right.
00:36:21What's in the heart?
00:36:22In the heart, we have what we know, which is the intellect, right?
00:36:25What we learn, understand, et cetera.
00:36:27What we desire, which is those affections that, that stay solid, even though the emotions,
00:36:33like those emotions come and go.
00:36:35And the, those desires are always informed, right, by, by reason and reflection.
00:36:40And then finally, the third thing that we do in our heart is we choose.
00:36:45We decide, we say yes or no to something.
00:36:48We say, we submit to something or we resist something.
00:36:52The heart is this complex, complex interaction of the intellect, the affections and, and of
00:36:59the free will.
00:37:01That's how, that's who we are.
00:37:02So if we go back to the definition of love, to love is to will the good of the other.
00:37:08We see how, um, how that works, right?
00:37:11That to love is to first to know somebody, then to, to desire the good for that person.
00:37:19And then to do it.
00:37:20Those three things.
00:37:21Do, to do what?
00:37:22To do the good for that person.
00:37:23Okay.
00:37:24But I want to go to another point.
00:37:25That's super, that is, I think is key.
00:37:29And is in that definition of St. Thomas, the important thing is this, that to love is always
00:37:36associated with the good.
00:37:39According to that definition, it's not associated to processing.
00:37:43It's not associated to doing what the other person wants.
00:37:49No, no, no.
00:37:50It's associated with doing the good for the other person.
00:37:53You see?
00:37:54I do.
00:37:55Of course.
00:37:56But of course that requires some judgment, doesn't it?
00:37:57Exactly.
00:37:58That's why it's not just the feeling going crazy.
00:38:01Right.
00:38:02It's, it's, it's an affection informed with our intelligence, our knowledge, memory, our,
00:38:09our imagination.
00:38:10All of that is part of it.
00:38:12So if I do something that's really annoying and not right, I want you to forgive me and
00:38:19not even mention it, but that's not doing my good.
00:38:22Exactly.
00:38:23So that's why even with raising kids.
00:38:26Yeah.
00:38:27If a kid is misbehaving in that moment.
00:38:30Like raising a husband.
00:38:31Yeah.
00:38:32Or yeah.
00:38:33Or in a couple or something.
00:38:35So the first thing you say, oh, I love him so much.
00:38:39Oh, I let him do that.
00:38:41That's okay.
00:38:42That's not loving that child.
00:38:44That's not willing the good for that child.
00:38:47You're just letting him go because your feelings are telling you, oh, it's okay.
00:38:52Poor kid.
00:38:53You're feeling compassion.
00:38:54That's why like too much sentimentality.
00:38:57It's not love.
00:38:58It's just an indulging your own emotions.
00:39:02But let's go back to the good.
00:39:04So it is very important to understand that to love is always associated with the good.
00:39:09And that when we love first, we know the person, then we desire the good for that person.
00:39:16And then we choose to do the good for that person.
00:39:19And then we choose to do the good for that person.
00:39:20It's always the good for that person.
00:39:21Those are the three steps.
00:39:22Yeah.
00:39:23So for our audience, they know they truly love somebody in the right way, in a healthy way.
00:39:30If they want to know the person, they want the good for the person, and they want to do the good for the person.
00:39:36One more thing.
00:39:37Very important to know that sometimes when you love, you don't get warm, fuzzy feelings.
00:39:44That's the example.
00:39:45When you punish your child for the child's good, you're loving that child.
00:39:53But it feels terrible.
00:39:55It doesn't feel good.
00:39:56Yep.
00:39:57All right.
00:39:58So that's very important to that.
00:39:59So did you see how in order to love, we use our whole heart?
00:40:03We use our intellect.
00:40:05We use our affections, that desire from the heart, and we use our actions, our free will.
00:40:13So part of loving is searching the good.
00:40:15So this is very important.
00:40:17Look at what Aristotle said in the Nicomachean ethics.
00:40:21He said that the good man not only wills the good, but also rejoices in doing the good.
00:40:29That's the whole thing.
00:40:30That's why we say that to love, which is the will, to will the good of the other, makes us happy.
00:40:36Okay.
00:40:37That's what Aristotle said.
00:40:38The good man not only wills the good, but also rejoices.
00:40:42In doing the good.
00:40:44So for me, that's the best explanation, like about reading different sources and reading
00:40:51different philosophies and mostly theologically speaking.
00:40:57That's how I can make sense of what love is.
00:41:01Because many times we over-sentimentalize love.
00:41:04And, oh, another thing, very important.
00:41:07Remember that, that to love requires an object and that object is always the good.
00:41:14Not the person.
00:41:15Not the person.
00:41:16I don't understand.
00:41:17This is too, this is too.
00:41:18Okay.
00:41:19This is my.
00:41:19Lay it on me.
00:41:20I don't get it.
00:41:21Okay.
00:41:21This is a little bit like my understanding, but it makes so much sense.
00:41:24So above.
00:41:25So you don't love me.
00:41:26That's the problem with the word to love.
00:41:28So I am loving you.
00:41:31When I, I, I want, I desire your good and I do the good for you.
00:41:36That's to love.
00:41:37So I marry you so I can love you.
00:41:39But I'm not the object of your love.
00:41:41But the object of, of my love for you is your good.
00:41:45It's not you.
00:41:46It's your good.
00:41:48You understand the difference?
00:41:49Yeah.
00:41:50It's not you.
00:41:51Only you because.
00:41:52It's only the objective and the object.
00:41:55I don't love you when I do what you want.
00:41:58I love you when I do what is good for you.
00:42:00In your judgment.
00:42:01Sometimes what you want is the good for you, but not always.
00:42:05So if, if, if a person.
00:42:07Can you just do what I want, please?
00:42:08But if a person, if you tell me, look, I want to drink three beers and I'm going to tell
00:42:14you, uh, that's not your good.
00:42:16You know what I mean?
00:42:17Or I want to, I don't know, change my job and quit on my job because I cannot, I feel like
00:42:23doing it.
00:42:24So if I really love you, I'm going to say, you know, doing what you want is not good for
00:42:29you.
00:42:30And I'm going to tell you what you should do.
00:42:32So it's very important that in order to love the, this concept, the, the object is the
00:42:38good.
00:42:39Aristotle also talks about we're in a friendship.
00:42:42the, the, the object has always to be the good.
00:42:46Um, like have something in common that is good in, in a relationship of friendship.
00:42:52The love for each other is, is the good.
00:42:55Okay.
00:42:56So you have a project together and the project together, for example, in our marriage is
00:43:01goodness is to do the good to each other, which is to love.
00:43:04And by the way, you can make it even more tangible than that.
00:43:08Uh, uh, the third thing, the object of mutual love that cements us together, or we walk shoulder
00:43:14to shoulder into the future together is our kids.
00:43:17Well, that's just one thing.
00:43:19That's a project.
00:43:20That's one project.
00:43:21Yeah.
00:43:22But, uh, we, we, we're going to talk about that on the retreat.
00:43:26Yeah.
00:43:27We, as, as couples, we need to have more projects than just a family.
00:43:32Yeah.
00:43:33Because the, the project of raising kids is just raising them, giving them roots, but
00:43:39then letting them fly.
00:43:40Right.
00:43:41We don't raise kids so that we overcrowd them all their lives.
00:43:45And we are kind of helicoptering parents, which all of us in our generation are doing with
00:43:50our kids.
00:43:51We're too much into our kids.
00:43:52And especially we moms, we fall in love with our kids.
00:43:56And I never remember the word asphyxiating them.
00:43:59Asphyxiating.
00:44:00No, there's another way you told me.
00:44:01Smothering.
00:44:02Smothering or, um, like too much.
00:44:05And then, and so that's not good for the kids because the whole reason, uh, of the kids
00:44:10is not because we want kids.
00:44:11It's because it's a, it's a fruit of our love.
00:44:13And then those kids need to fly and have their own lives.
00:44:16That's our role as parents.
00:44:18Yeah.
00:44:19So that should not be our own project.
00:44:20Well, let's take it back to your definition of, not your definition of love.
00:44:23St. Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle.
00:44:25It's like Esther Munbrook's definition of love, folks.
00:44:28This is like, this is like, to will the good of the other.
00:44:31You will my good and you will our kids good.
00:44:34And to will our kids good as them is very different than willing our kids good as you.
00:44:39Which is really important.
00:44:40So to will their good means notwithstanding the fact that you want them around more and
00:44:45you want them to behave in a particular way.
00:44:47You want their good.
00:44:48Yeah.
00:44:49Even if it's not as fun for you.
00:44:51Or even if it means I'm not involved.
00:44:52Yeah.
00:44:53Yeah.
00:44:54Which by the way, that's the way it should be.
00:44:55Yeah.
00:44:56That's right.
00:44:57My involvement should be minimum.
00:44:58That's right.
00:44:59Okay.
00:45:00I'm going to run out of time because one of the things we need to do in this episode
00:45:03is we've got a bunch of questions about relationships that we're going to talk about.
00:45:06So folks, um, I'm going to do a couple of things here.
00:45:09This is the first of several episodes with Mrs. B.
00:45:13And as you can see, there's a lot of content here.
00:45:15And, and what are we going to do in the next episode?
00:45:18We're going to talk about what are the elements?
00:45:21What are the macro nutrients of a successful romantic relationship?
00:45:26That's ride or die.
00:45:27That lasts.
00:45:28That goes the distance.
00:45:29And we know because we've seen the data.
00:45:31This is what I do for a living.
00:45:32And we've talked about it an awful lot.
00:45:34And we've got the theory behind it.
00:45:35And we're going to lay it on you.
00:45:36What are the elements that we should be looking for?
00:45:39After that, we want to ask in an, in an episode, what's the meaning of a good marriage?
00:45:45And that is, why should you be together?
00:45:47Why should you actually be together?
00:45:49The why of your marriage?
00:45:50And we want to talk about the why of our marriage, but we want to talk about the why
00:45:53of marriage in general.
00:45:54Yeah.
00:45:55And, and you know, what's the meaning of what a permanent relationship can actually be.
00:45:59Okay.
00:46:00Before we get to the questions, I want to sum up the three big points that you made that
00:46:03I want to, I want to underline for our audience here are number one, the beginning of a relationship
00:46:09is like the beginning of a company.
00:46:11It's an entrepreneurial thing.
00:46:12Falling in love is the single most entrepreneurial act that most people are going to engage in.
00:46:18And, and that means there's a risk of failure and failure should lead to learning.
00:46:23And it's really, really tough, but that's the way it's actually supposed to be.
00:46:28It's this balance between the mysterious sense of long-term value and what feels right.
00:46:35And so to be a true entrepreneur in life involves allowing yourself to give your heart away.
00:46:41That's lesson number one.
00:46:42Take a little risk.
00:46:43And by the way, that's really subversive.
00:46:45That's a real, that's really transgressive.
00:46:48Go take risk with your heart, right?
00:46:50Yeah.
00:46:51Because it could go wrong.
00:46:52Uh-huh.
00:46:53And it will.
00:46:54But you don't need to be stupid about it.
00:46:55I don't think I'm the first man you fell in love with, by the way.
00:46:57Yeah.
00:46:58But I do know that you had other relationships and they didn't go, and they didn't go right.
00:47:02No, I made mistakes.
00:47:03Yeah.
00:47:04And that doesn't mean we need to make ourselves so vulnerable and in such bad situations where
00:47:09we really get hurt.
00:47:10Right.
00:47:11And we need to be smart about it.
00:47:12Yeah.
00:47:13It's not like we risk, you know, like physically or no, it's just we risk a project.
00:47:20It's like a project, like you said.
00:47:22And so it could go wrong, but let's not put ourselves into harm's way.
00:47:26Of course.
00:47:27You know, into an abusive relationship or something like that.
00:47:30In the same way that you wouldn't in any entrepreneurial endeavor.
00:47:33If I had seen a sign of something abusive about you, I would have left you in the spot.
00:47:39I said, bye-bye.
00:47:40Kennedy airport.
00:47:41Bye.
00:47:42No.
00:47:42Yeah.
00:47:43I'm turning around.
00:47:44I don't have money to turn around.
00:47:45I don't care.
00:47:46I'll call my mother.
00:47:47Mama, please.
00:47:48Even though she had no money at all.
00:47:50But anyway, so yeah.
00:47:52Yeah.
00:47:53Lesson number two, even more transgressive.
00:47:54Love isn't a feeling.
00:47:56Love isn't a feeling.
00:47:57It's an act of will.
00:47:58It's a commitment.
00:47:59It's a decision.
00:48:00Yeah.
00:48:01Super important because love has feelings associated with it, but it's not a feeling per se.
00:48:05The love is to will the good of the other.
00:48:07And that's incredibly important because it leads to the third big point that you made, which
00:48:11is that there's three ingredients to true and enduring healthy love.
00:48:18Do you want to know whether or not you truly love somebody?
00:48:21Number one, you want to know them.
00:48:23You really want to know the person deeply.
00:48:25That's a big subject too.
00:48:27That's a big one for sure.
00:48:28For sure.
00:48:29But I tell you, there are a lot of people who talk about this sort of infatuation, but
00:48:32they're really not that interested in knowing the person.
00:48:35Yeah.
00:48:36The second is that you desire the person's, you honestly desire the person's good.
00:48:41And that person's good has a lot to it.
00:48:43But fundamentally, that means you want the person you love to be virtuous.
00:48:47That's good.
00:48:48That's the good is what it comes down to.
00:48:50You want your partner to be a better person.
00:48:52Yes.
00:48:53And the third part is you want to do the good for that person, which sometimes means making
00:48:57them better and they're not going to like it.
00:48:59Yeah.
00:49:00And by the way, sometimes you might be wrong in the way you're trying to improve the person.
00:49:03It makes you better too when you do it.
00:49:04Yeah.
00:49:05It's not just about, it's like, it goes both ways.
00:49:09Yeah.
00:49:10When there is good in it, there's good in it for both.
00:49:13There's a lot more, more to come for sure.
00:49:16But we've got a whole bunch of questions that, you know, so these are questions for, you
00:49:21know, the old married couple.
00:49:22Okay.
00:49:23So we'll trade off on them a little bit.
00:49:24Okay.
00:49:25Okay.
00:49:26The first question comes from Audrey Crozier and many other anonymous.
00:49:30So this is a question we've seen again and again and again and again, and it's a question
00:49:33for you.
00:49:34Okay.
00:49:35Okay.
00:49:36It's based on a very popular episode of the podcast on my morning protocol.
00:49:40And you've heard people ask me about my morning protocol.
00:49:42What time you get up and then what you do.
00:49:44Yeah.
00:49:45Crazy morning protocol.
00:49:46Crazy person morning protocol.
00:49:47Okay.
00:49:48So Audrey writes, as have many others, are there any tweaks to this protocol for women?
00:49:54What about menopausal women?
00:49:56Does your wife, Mrs. B, have the same or a different morning routine?
00:50:01Is she getting up at 4:30 AM to lift heavy weights with no music?
00:50:05Is she paying precise attention to a regimen of dietary supplements?
00:50:09The answer is no, no, no, no.
00:50:12Um, no, I don't wake up at 4:30.
00:50:15I wake up at six usually, which is pretty early.
00:50:18For you.
00:50:19For me.
00:50:20For a Spaniard.
00:50:21For a Spaniard.
00:50:22Yeah.
00:50:23Um, and then, uh, so what's my routine?
00:50:24Yeah.
00:50:25Well, more or less it's, it's, you know, the truth is that you, you don't live an undisciplined
00:50:28lifestyle.
00:50:29No, not undisciplined.
00:50:30You don't sleep in until 10 in the morning sometimes.
00:50:32Yeah.
00:50:33Like you are careful about your diet and you do exercise.
00:50:35Yeah.
00:50:36So what, yeah.
00:50:37So I woke up at six, go to mass at 6:30.
00:50:39With me.
00:50:40With you.
00:50:41If you are in town.
00:50:42And then I go back home and the best, one of the best moments of the day also is when
00:50:46I take my coffee with milk.
00:50:48But you delay your caffeine consumption until you've been up.
00:50:52Until I come back from mass.
00:50:53Usually for about an hour and a half, about 90 minutes.
00:50:55Yeah.
00:50:56Well, I don't count.
00:50:57I come back home from mass and I have my coffee and then I work for a while, which at that,
00:51:01yes, I'm disciplined about work.
00:51:03I work for two, three hours.
00:51:05Creative work.
00:51:06Creative work.
00:51:07Like either writing, studying, learning something, preparing talks, et cetera.
00:51:12So that's my routine.
00:51:14I don't have any other routine because in the afternoon, I just like to be with my grandkids.
00:51:19I go visit my grandkids or the grandkids are home or whatever.
00:51:23So I spend time there.
00:51:24And if I have time, I exercise.
00:51:27And Arthur always tells me you need to exercise more.
00:51:30And I'm, I'm a little lazy.
00:51:32I, I just.
00:51:33That's not laziness.
00:51:34This is.
00:51:35What is it?
00:51:36I want to, I want to emphasize this for the audience.
00:51:38Um, I need very, very regimented routine.
00:51:42And there's a reason for that.
00:51:44The reason has to do with the fact that I have astronomically higher negative affect than you do.
00:51:48Right.
00:51:49I am much more prone to anxiety and depression than you are.
00:51:52I just am.
00:51:53And it's not, not, it's not clinical, you know, it's not the, some, you know, five alarm fire.
00:51:58And I don't want it to become a five alarm fire.
00:52:00And so one of the best ways to manage high levels of negative affect is to run around and pick up heavy things.
00:52:07And, you know, have a very, very strict protocol.
00:52:10That's extremely science-based.
00:52:12But if you don't have that, then you can actually be more flexible.
00:52:15The truth is you're having super good health.
00:52:18You have exceptionally good health.
00:52:20You take really good care of yourself.
00:52:21And you can do that in the context of somebody who's not naturally extreme.
00:52:25You're not trying to manage the high level of negative affect that I have.
00:52:28And the basic point is this, this is not about men and women.
00:52:31This is about who we are as people.
00:52:33We need to actually tailor the routines and protocols that we have to, to what our needs are.
00:52:38And that's why science is useful.
00:52:39I don't need exercise for my emotional well-being or psychological well-being.
00:52:44I just need it physically.
00:52:46Yeah.
00:52:47But I move a lot.
00:52:48I go places.
00:52:49I pick up kids.
00:52:50I run around.
00:52:51I do things.
00:52:52So I guess that's part of it.
00:52:53You're super active.
00:52:54You don't count your steps.
00:52:55And I don't count.
00:52:56I bought a watch once and I just got sick of it.
00:53:00I don't like it when it controls my sleep hours.
00:53:03So you didn't buy a watch.
00:53:04You actually wear a watch like a normal human being.
00:53:06You bought a tracker.
00:53:07Yeah.
00:53:08That's what you mean.
00:53:09I go Reddit.
00:53:10Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:11Like a tracker.
00:53:12And I don't anymore have a regular watch.
00:53:15So I'm very different than you.
00:53:17So I don't really have like an exercise routine.
00:53:20I don't take supplements.
00:53:22I try.
00:53:23You try to give me supplements.
00:53:24I forget to take them.
00:53:25You need to take more creatine monohydrate.
00:53:27You need to take more.
00:53:28And I want more protein in your diet.
00:53:31So this is one of the ways that he takes care of me because he knows a lot about these
00:53:35things and he tells me what to do.
00:53:37So I need to be more obedient because.
00:53:38Obedient.
00:53:39No.
00:53:40Not that way.
00:53:41I need to be.
00:53:42I need to let you take care of me.
00:53:44The problem is I don't let you.
00:53:45You tell me something and say, yeah, yeah, blah, blah.
00:53:47And I don't do it.
00:53:48But we're different and we're different people.
00:53:50And this is the idea of complementarity of character.
00:53:54Complementarity is how we complete each other.
00:53:56Exactly.
00:53:57Let's answer the question.
00:53:58No supplements, no exercise, a routine.
00:54:01Like hardcore.
00:54:02I do sometimes lift weights, right?
00:54:05But it's a little boring for me, so I don't do it.
00:54:07But I feel really good when I do and my posture stays strong.
00:54:11And that's the answer.
00:54:12Was there any other question?
00:54:13No, that's good.
00:54:14Okay.
00:54:15That's good.
00:54:16And I think we made the big point, which is that never make the perfect the enemy of
00:54:18the good and do what you actually need.
00:54:20Yeah.
00:54:21As opposed to what somebody else is telling you.
00:54:22This is completely subversive to internet culture, which says if you don't follow the set
00:54:26protocols from this person, you're going to die.
00:54:28Exactly.
00:54:29And that's not right.
00:54:30That's not right.
00:54:31You have to actually find your own way through knowledge and habits.
00:54:33Yeah.
00:54:34And like you said, important to know what you need.
00:54:36Right.
00:54:37And what you need, your personality, your priorities, and your health.
00:54:43If you're getting older, you need to exercise.
00:54:45Otherwise, you lose muscle and the whole thing.
00:54:48So yes, you need to do more of that.
00:54:51But, um, but of course.
00:54:53You're also just a naturally unbelievable athlete.
00:54:55I mean, you've done triathlon.
00:54:57Yeah.
00:54:58You were ranked in track and field as a teenager in Spain.
00:55:01Yeah.
00:55:02Right.
00:55:03Not me.
00:55:04Younger.
00:55:05Okay.
00:55:06Um, okay.
00:55:07This one comes from Albert.
00:55:08People always call me Albert Brooks.
00:55:09I know.
00:55:10I hate that.
00:55:11Um, but Albert is not doing that.
00:55:13Who writes, this is for me.
00:55:14How did, how and why did you choose to marry your wife when you were a committed Catholic?
00:55:17And she wasn't.
00:55:18What made you take such a risk in what is the most important decision in your life?
00:55:23Hoping one's partner or spouse will convert doesn't guarantee anything.
00:55:26And it could have brought lots of suffering in your relationship.
00:55:28That's absolutely true.
00:55:29Oh yeah.
00:55:30Absolutely.
00:55:31Well, to, to begin with, I wasn't as serious about my faith in my early twenties as I subsequently
00:55:36and very quickly became.
00:55:37So this was.
00:55:38But more than me.
00:55:39Way more.
00:55:40I would never have described myself as, you know, not being a believer.
00:55:42All right.
00:55:43And, and, and part of it was when I wasn't practicing very assiduously, very spotty way,
00:55:47I wanted to practice more.
00:55:48Yeah.
00:55:49It was always this.
00:55:50I remember when I was a, you know, a starving musician living in New York city, I had this
00:55:53goal.
00:55:54There's a whole bunch of things I need to do.
00:55:55I need to quit smoking.
00:55:57I need to quit drinking.
00:55:59I need to get to the dentist and I need to get back into mass.
00:56:02This, this weird, you know, set of goals that I actually had, had, uh, for myself.
00:56:07Thank God.
00:56:08All of it done, done, done, done, done.
00:56:10But it is true.
00:56:11A relationship like that could go wrong.
00:56:12Right.
00:56:13And people really need to be prudent about this.
00:56:15I mean, thank God.
00:56:16I mean, literally thank God, because you know, this was my path of righteousness and you're
00:56:20the one who's going to, if I get into heaven, you're going to walk me there.
00:56:23Yes.
00:56:24But I couldn't have known.
00:56:25And so Albert, this is a very hard one to answer with specificity.
00:56:29This is something you need to take your prayer.
00:56:31This is something that you need to have a lot of prudential judgment about.
00:56:34Yeah.
00:56:35Because I think also if God allows you to be so attracted, attracted to somebody, there
00:56:40has to be some truth.
00:56:41Yeah.
00:56:42I mean, I try and get in a deep and healthy.
00:56:43In a deep and healthy way.
00:56:44In a deep and healthy way.
00:56:45Not because she's so amazing, beautiful.
00:56:46In a virtuous way.
00:56:47Yeah.
00:56:48In a virtuous, in a good way.
00:56:49Right.
00:56:50Always doing, thinking about the goodness, right?
00:56:52Yeah.
00:56:53And the true.
00:56:54And I think if there is that, if that attraction exists, there's probably a reason for it.
00:57:00So it's a, it's a question of discernment, prayer.
00:57:03Why does God bring that person into my life?
00:57:05If you're a believer.
00:57:06Have a conversation, having conversations with that person.
00:57:09Look, this faith is important for me.
00:57:11And I, you know, that's something important.
00:57:14How, I mean, how likely, or is it going to be that you can start practicing my faith?
00:57:20At least give it a try.
00:57:21That's important for me.
00:57:22Right.
00:57:23You know, if there is love, like love starts growing like this.
00:57:27And, and, and if you had told me faith is an important thing for me, maybe I would have paid attention to it more.
00:57:34Right.
00:57:35You never told me that.
00:57:36I, you told me with your actions later on.
00:57:39Right.
00:57:40But like when we were knowing each other, if you had told me that, maybe it wouldn't have been different.
00:57:45So it's complicated.
00:57:46It's not an, not an easy answer.
00:57:48Yeah.
00:57:49Yeah.
00:57:50There's no, it just, it's life is complicated.
00:57:52Yep.
00:57:53And this is just.
00:57:54Here's one from Tao Lai writes into the website.
00:57:56I wonder if you can speak about the correlation between children and happiness.
00:58:00Now this is a research question, but it's also an important question from life experience.
00:58:03So we both get to do this one.
00:58:05Many married couples are not willing to have kids anymore.
00:58:08It's true.
00:58:09Fertility rates are falling, including fertility rates among married couples.
00:58:13So it's not just because people aren't getting married.
00:58:15They think they're happier that way and that children won't add to their happiness.
00:58:19What gives?
00:58:20Okay.
00:58:21Now the Brad Wilcox at the university of Virginia, who's the really the greatest on this, who started
00:58:27the Institute for family studies in Charlottesville, Virginia talks an awful lot about this.
00:58:31And, and, and, and I can speak to that, but talk, you know, from, from the experience that
00:58:36you've had as a person and working with lots and lots and lots of young couples.
00:58:40How do you think about this, about happiness and children?
00:58:43It just in a very realistic way, because you know, there, there are people who say this
00:58:47wrong and say, oh, they're just wrong.
00:58:48You know, let's, let's talk about this in a very real way.
00:58:51So children are a gift.
00:58:53They are also a project.
00:58:56In other words, they're difficult.
00:58:57Yeah.
00:58:58And they bring a lot of meaning into your life.
00:59:02You don't have children to have fun, to be happier.
00:59:07Yes.
00:59:08They, they bring a lot of moments of happiness, but they also bring a lot of sacrifice and
00:59:15suffering and, and unhappiness.
00:59:17And you know, all those things that come with you, not just the, you don't sleep, but it
00:59:21is so good for you because first of all, it, it is the best thing that can happen to you to bring
00:59:28you out of yourself and your own attachments and your all selfishness.
00:59:33Um, it makes you a generous person.
00:59:36It, it makes you a person that would give and sacrifice for another human being.
00:59:41Unless you're a crummy parent.
00:59:42Unless you're a really bad parent.
00:59:44Um, so, so, and that only a child can do that really, really well.
00:59:49So they don't, I don't think they bring happiness like in the day to day, maybe really little
00:59:57moments of happiness in there, but it gives you so much meaning.
01:00:00It gives you a reason to get up in the morning and it gives you an opportunity to just love,
01:00:07to will the good of the other for somebody who, who needs you so much, you feel needed.
01:00:13And that's so important in a human being to feel needed.
01:00:16Yeah.
01:00:17Right.
01:00:18You've talked about that.
01:00:19That's the essence of dignity is to be needed.
01:00:20To be needed.
01:00:21And, and so all these things are part of happiness, right?
01:00:24Right.
01:00:25Right.
01:00:26But not in the way of having fun and just having a great, like happy life.
01:00:30No, it's different.
01:00:31It's a, it's a deeper happiness, more, more meaning.
01:00:35And so I would say it's the best thing in the world.
01:00:39And you know, what's best than having children, having grandchildren.
01:00:42Yeah.
01:00:43Yeah.
01:00:44That's just amazing.
01:00:45If we kind of gone straight to grandchildren.
01:00:46Yes.
01:00:47Holy cow.
01:00:48What is that thing?
01:00:49That silly thing?
01:00:50Oh, well, you know, there's an old Catholic saying that, that grandchildren are God's reward
01:00:53for not killing your kids.
01:00:54Yes, exactly.
01:00:55So.
01:00:56And if you knew our kids.
01:00:57Yeah.
01:00:58So, okay.
01:00:59So.
01:01:00Exactly.
01:01:01Well, you know, this is good.
01:01:02And I'll, and I'll translate it into the language that a lot of regular office hours will understand,
01:01:06which is the starting with the definition of happiness.
01:01:08It has three macronutrients.
01:01:09Happiness is enjoyment plus satisfaction plus meaning kids.
01:01:13They, they trade off enjoyment with meaning.
01:01:16And so one of the reasons that, that young parents, they, they actually have less enjoyment
01:01:21in their life than, than equally matched adults who don't have kids equally matched paired.
01:01:27Married people or a couple people who don't have kids actually in general.
01:01:32I mean, don't write angry emails and or do that's good too.
01:01:35The ones without kids have more enjoyment.
01:01:37Objectively.
01:01:38They enjoy their lives more down the line.
01:01:41The ones who have the kids have more meaning, more meaning in their marriage and more meaning in their lives.
01:01:45And so this is just a straight up trade off.
01:01:47Now everybody's got to make the decision.
01:01:48I'm way more libertarian than you in every way.
01:01:51I'm way more live and let live than you are because I'm an American.
01:01:54I am an American.
01:01:55I know you are by choice as opposed to by birth.
01:01:58And I deeply love that.
01:01:59But you still have some Spanish roots.
01:02:03Yeah.
01:02:04Yeah.
01:02:05Yes, you do.
01:02:06I do.
01:02:06Okay.
01:02:07I mean, it's like, Hey, you make.
01:02:08I've made one in a long time.
01:02:11It's so busy.
01:02:12Anyway.
01:02:13So, so here, this is really the trade off that people need to be considering.
01:02:17There is more enjoyment for most people early on.
01:02:19And there is less meaning later on when people forego the decision to have children,
01:02:24which is a deeply, deeply, deeply personal decision that everybody's got to make.
01:02:27Okay.
01:02:28Andrew Crenn writes in, I'm 41, single, and I live in Raleigh, North Carolina.
01:02:34I love the heads up play that he's putting his name, first name, last name, age, marital status,
01:02:41and where he lives because this guy's in the market.
01:02:44That's entrepreneurship, Andrew.
01:02:46I like it.
01:02:47So ladies, Andrew Crenn.
01:02:49How old is he?
01:02:5041.
01:02:51Raleigh, North Carolina, which is a beautiful place.
01:02:53Um, our beloved daughter-in-law, um, Jessica went to college in Durham.
01:02:59And, uh, for those of you who know the colleges down there, you know what I'm talking about.
01:03:02Big rivalry.
01:03:03I'm 41, but single live in Raleigh, North Carolina.
01:03:06Andrew says, are there any practical ways you could advise on putting myself out there to meet women locally,
01:03:12instead of on apps in the hopes of marriage is the ultimate goal.
01:03:16And the answer to that I'll start.
01:03:18It's around finding interest and commonality in values.
01:03:21That's what it comes down to.
01:03:23And that's what, you know, apps are getting better at.
01:03:25I'm, I'm a scientific advisor to a, a dating app.
01:03:28That's really, really engaged in trying to get people together as quickly as possible as opposed to being online.
01:03:32Right.
01:03:33So it's in real life, which is the most important thing.
01:03:35And apps are going to get better.
01:03:36And I'm not anti app because that's the way of the world, you know, the technology is there.
01:03:41But one of the things that I strongly recommend is what you're interested in that, that reflects not just your interests, but also your values.
01:03:49Go there and meet people that share that because the commonality of the foundation of relationship and then find somebody different than you who shares that.
01:03:57That's what it comes down to.
01:03:58Right.
01:03:58So what's when you, you, you talk an awful lot to young Catholics.
01:04:01What do you tell them?
01:04:02No, I mean, same thing.
01:04:04Go find the parish.
01:04:05Yeah.
01:04:06Go to a parish or go to a place where you're going to find people with same values.
01:04:09And I mean, I, I don't have a better advice than what you said.
01:04:13Just look for it.
01:04:14And that's not religious, by the way, if you're super into running, join it.
01:04:17Yeah.
01:04:18The running club.
01:04:19It has to be a good thing.
01:04:20That'd be a virtuous thing.
01:04:21It's not, it doesn't have to be like, oh, we like go out and drinking every night.
01:04:25Right.
01:04:26There's nothing wrong with going out and drinking, but that should not be the thing that brings you together.
01:04:30Well, that's one of the reasons that you find that there's a bunch of data that find that people who meet in book clubs, libraries, and churches, they tend to have more enduring marriages than people who meet in beaches and bars and online.
01:04:42Yeah.
01:04:43There's a reason for that, for exactly what you talked about.
01:04:46There's nothing wrong with me and people in a bar.
01:04:48I mean, that could be, you know, I know people that met in a bar and they have good marriages.
01:04:53Right.
01:04:54But, but it's better if you put yourself in a place that you know, that is more likely that.
01:04:59So what, so Andrew, what do you care about?
01:05:01What do you really care about?
01:05:03Besides like, I know you care about falling in love and getting married.
01:05:07Great.
01:05:08What are your other loves in life?
01:05:10Is it your faith?
01:05:11Is it your intellectual interests?
01:05:12Is it your physical fitness?
01:05:14Is it something that's actually virtuous and important?
01:05:16Find a place where people share those values and go there.
01:05:19And then when you're actually working in the apps, when you're trying to meet somebody in the apps, use the apps carefully so you can bond over shared interests and get in real life as quickly as possible.
01:05:30So I have a question.
01:05:31Yeah.
01:05:32What's the difference about these things that in project or things that they have in common, like values, et cetera, and the other commonalities that are usually in the apps?
01:05:43Like, I don't know, like I like surfing or would that be part of it or it would be different?
01:05:48Well, that's just, that's, that's interests in common for sure.
01:05:51And they, there's a range of those things with respect to how, how, how, how close they are to actual human values.
01:05:57So how about political ideas?
01:05:59Would that be a thing to look for the same?
01:06:02Yeah.
01:06:03That's, I think that's an exception that basically the exception approves the rule.
01:06:06And, and one of the things that we find is that couples are more stable.
01:06:10If they have an early moratorium and dating on political conversations.
01:06:14So they can actually fall in love with each other, not withstanding slight differences or even strong differences in the way that they see the political realm.
01:06:21So again, people have to decide.
01:06:22That's not something that you have in common.
01:06:23Well, part of it is because these might reflect values, but they don't reflect loves, right?
01:06:28They don't reflect loves, generally speaking.
01:06:30That on the contrary, they can reflect hates is what it comes down to.
01:06:34So like, yeah.
01:06:35It's all about the goodness.
01:06:36It's all about, it's all about love and goodness is really what it comes down to.
01:06:39So you need the positive aspect on it as well.
01:06:41That's a very good question.
01:06:43And again, you know, people have to decide, you know, maybe it's like, yeah, I would never date anybody who voted for so-and-so.
01:06:50I hear that all the time, but you have to decide whether or not you're ruling out bonding over things that really matter much, much, much more.
01:06:59And whether or not you're being manipulated by people, baby boomers, our age that want to conscript more Gen Z-ers into our culture war.
01:07:06That's not good.
01:07:07All right.
01:07:08We've run out of time.
01:07:09Okay.
01:07:09We don't have time to keep doing, but we're going to do more.
01:07:11We've got more questions here.
01:07:12We've got more topics and.
01:07:14I hope you like it.
01:07:15Yeah, for sure.
01:07:16And folks, if you do like this episode, give it a thumbs up, pass it around and write in the comments.
01:07:21We want episodes two and three and whatever.
01:07:23Right.
01:07:24And if you don't want it, tell us that too.
01:07:25Yeah.
01:07:26And we won't.
01:07:27I won't be offended.
01:07:28Yes, you will.
01:07:29No, I won't.
01:07:30Because you don't care what other people think.
01:07:31No, no, I care.
01:07:32Which is one of the things that I admire the most about you.
01:07:34So folks, let us know your thoughts.
01:07:36I mean, I care, but a little.
01:07:37You care less than me.
01:07:38I care less than me.
01:07:39And that's really how you will my good is by helping me doing that.
01:07:42One of the many ways.
01:07:43OfficeHours@ArthurBrooks.com.
01:07:44That's the email address.
01:07:45Like and subscribe to Spotify, YouTube and Apple.
01:07:48Leave a comment.
01:07:49I promise I'll read it.
01:07:51Even if it's negative, that helps too.
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01:07:55There's all kinds of interesting material that we put there that is not in this podcast.
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01:08:00Order The Meaning of Your Life, which is my newest book.
01:08:03And I have a YouTube too.
01:08:05Your YouTube.
01:08:06Exactly right.
01:08:07We have things together.
01:08:08Exactly right.
01:08:09That's a good point.
01:08:10What's your YouTube?
01:08:11What's your YouTube address?
01:08:12Esther Moon Brooks.
01:08:13Yes.
01:08:14And if you want to know how to spell that, that's actually written in the show notes here.
01:08:17Yeah.
01:08:18So you can actually see that.
01:08:19And you can also follow Esther on Instagram in all one word, faithwithjoytalks.
01:08:25And we'll put that in the show notes as well for people who want to follow you on socials,
01:08:29which more and more people are doing.
01:08:30And we're linking our stuff together.
01:08:31And I promise I won't obsess looking at how many followers I have.
01:08:35Because you don't.
01:08:36How many likes.
01:08:37I mean, no, that's kind of addictive.
01:08:39So I'll be careful.
01:08:40So we're signing off now.
01:08:42Last word.
01:08:43I love you.
01:08:44I love you too.
01:08:45I will.
01:08:46You're good.
01:08:47And I adore you.
01:08:48And I will the good of everybody who's listening because we are made to love.
01:08:53I love you too.
01:08:54Thank you.