Transcript
00:00:00- Your moniker is not, you know,
00:00:02acclaimed holy speaker,
00:00:03number one New York Times bestselling author.
00:00:05It's optimist.
00:00:07What does that mean?
00:00:08- We're defining ourselves by our jobs
00:00:10or something we did 20 years ago.
00:00:12And the problem with that is the accomplishments
00:00:14get further and further away,
00:00:16become less and less relevant.
00:00:17And what happens when you no longer have the job?
00:00:20Then who are you?
00:00:21I'm very strict about defining myself by who I am
00:00:24so that if I stop doing any of the things I do,
00:00:26I'll always be an optimist till the day I die.
00:00:28People say to me things like,
00:00:29how can you be an optimist in these times?
00:00:31And my answer is always the same,
00:00:32which is like, well, what good is it being optimist
00:00:34when everything's perfect?
00:00:35Find a story that explains why all the sacrifice,
00:00:41all the heartache, all the two steps back are worth it.
00:00:46You could make more money, work fewer hours.
00:00:48You could do something else.
00:00:49What is so important in the world
00:00:52that all that suffering is worth it?
00:00:59I'm Arthur Brooks and how we can use those ideas in our own lives
00:01:08and the lives of other people,
00:01:10specifically focusing on science and ideas.
00:01:13Thank you for continuing to watch the show.
00:01:15If it's your first time, welcome.
00:01:16I hope that you'll come back.
00:01:18And if you like it, if you've been here a long time
00:01:20or this is your first week, please do like and subscribe.
00:01:22That's one of the ways that we can train the algorithm,
00:01:25that the algorithm on YouTube or Spotify or Apple
00:01:29or wherever you're getting this
00:01:30to deliver this to more people in their feed.
00:01:33And we want more people to be watching the show
00:01:36because love and happiness, who doesn't need it, right?
00:01:39As always, if you have comments or criticisms,
00:01:41please write to us at officehours at arthurworks.com
00:01:44or put your ideas or criticisms or comments
00:01:47in the comments below,
00:01:49wherever you're watching or listening to this.
00:01:51Today is a special episode, actually.
00:01:53I'm going to be talking about something
00:01:54that's adjacent to happiness.
00:01:56And that's, that's the subject of hope.
00:01:59I'll tell you who our guest is in a second.
00:02:00But first, let's talk about why we would do an episode
00:02:02on hope per se.
00:02:04The reason is because we're teaming up
00:02:06with a collection of other podcasts
00:02:08for what's called a Be Hope Podcast Takeover.
00:02:12Ah, the invasion of the podcast.
00:02:14You've probably seen this in other podcasts in your feed.
00:02:17But the idea is to spread a message of hope
00:02:20and optimism right now
00:02:21when the UN General Assembly,
00:02:23the United Nations General Assembly
00:02:24is getting together in New York.
00:02:26That's happening as we air this episode.
00:02:28Leaders from around the world
00:02:29are coming together for that.
00:02:31And we want to inspire them.
00:02:33No matter what your views are
00:02:35on the United Nations,
00:02:36what they should or shouldn't be doing,
00:02:37we all want better leaders.
00:02:39We want leaders who are more hopeful,
00:02:40who are more optimistic,
00:02:41and who are getting a better vision
00:02:43of those ideas into the lives
00:02:45of the people that they govern.
00:02:47Well, I'm not doing this episode alone.
00:02:49I typically do.
00:02:50But not today.
00:02:51Today, I've got a great friend with me,
00:02:52Simon Sinek.
00:02:53Most of you probably know his work.
00:02:56Simon Sinek is somebody
00:02:58who has been talking about meaning in life
00:03:00and who talks about himself,
00:03:02calls himself an optimist.
00:03:04It's the first word in his bio.
00:03:06He believes in this whole idea
00:03:07of optimism and hope.
00:03:08It comes out of his pores.
00:03:10But he's also an intellectual.
00:03:12He talks about what it is
00:03:14and how to get more of it.
00:03:16Simon was actually trained
00:03:17as an ethnographer.
00:03:18He has an interesting academic background.
00:03:20I'm not going to be focusing on that.
00:03:21I'm going to be talking more
00:03:23about what he's found out about people
00:03:24and how to motivate them
00:03:25to be their best selves,
00:03:27companies to be better too,
00:03:28for serving people and creating value.
00:03:30And all the things
00:03:31that he's been talking about
00:03:32in public life.
00:03:33He's gotten pretty famous,
00:03:35as a matter of fact,
00:03:35talking about positive things
00:03:37in a world that's so full of negativity.
00:03:39It's really quite a distinction,
00:03:40I have to say.
00:03:41He's somebody that I personally
00:03:42have a lot of love and respect for.
00:03:44Many of you have seen him
00:03:46appear on stages around the world.
00:03:48You've probably seen him
00:03:49on YouTube as well.
00:03:50He's had some unbelievably
00:03:52popular TED Talks.
00:03:54His most popular one,
00:03:55the first one that he did,
00:03:56was on the concept of why,
00:03:58the power of why, asking why.
00:04:00What is the why of your life?
00:04:02That's been viewed
00:04:02more than 60 million times.
00:04:05That's a lot.
00:04:06His lecture on millennials
00:04:08in the workplace,
00:04:08that's another one that he did,
00:04:10actually reached 80 million views
00:04:11in his first week
00:04:12and has been seen
00:04:13hundreds of millions of times since.
00:04:15He shares his inspiration
00:04:17and his writing
00:04:18through best-selling books,
00:04:19including his big bestseller,
00:04:21Start With Why,
00:04:23also Leaders Eat Last.
00:04:25I'll be talking about that
00:04:26a little bit with him
00:04:26and The Infinite Game,
00:04:28as well as through his podcast,
00:04:30A Bit of Optimism.
00:04:31You can actually see me
00:04:32on his podcast.
00:04:33I've appeared there numerous times.
00:04:35He's also the founder
00:04:36of The Optimism Company.
00:04:38The Optimism Company,
00:04:39I like that,
00:04:40which is a leadership learning
00:04:41and development company.
00:04:42And he publishes
00:04:43other inspiring thinkers
00:04:44through his publishing partnership
00:04:46with Penguin Random House
00:04:48called Optimism Press.
00:04:51Simon's a unique guy.
00:04:52He's a guy who lives
00:04:53what he actually talks about
00:04:55and has an interesting life
00:04:56as a result of it,
00:04:57but also gives us ideas
00:04:58on how we can be more optimistic
00:05:00and how leaders
00:05:01can be more optimistic.
00:05:02And you're going to take a lot away
00:05:04from this episode.
00:05:05Right now,
00:05:06you're like Neo in The Matrix.
00:05:08You can keep scrolling,
00:05:09experiencing a simulation of life.
00:05:12Or you can wake up
00:05:13to how your attention
00:05:14is being harvested for profit.
00:05:16It's happening to people
00:05:17all over the world right now.
00:05:19You don't want to be productized
00:05:21like this anymore,
00:05:22but it's hard.
00:05:23Tech addiction is so potent
00:05:25because it's been designed
00:05:26to tap into your dopamine system.
00:05:28Just like heroin,
00:05:29porn, gambling.
00:05:30You've got the cravings.
00:05:31You're addicted.
00:05:33You don't like it,
00:05:33and I don't either.
00:05:34But I can't just tell you
00:05:35to stop doing it.
00:05:36That's hard.
00:05:37If you want to break free
00:05:38from the system,
00:05:39you need an incentive.
00:05:40Here's one.
00:05:42Why don't you join a phone company
00:05:43that pays you not to use your phone?
00:05:46If you want to reduce brain rot,
00:05:48get Noble Mobile.
00:05:49It pays you to use less data.
00:05:50It gives you an incentive to unplug.
00:05:53Noble Mobile is the phone plan
00:05:54that finally aligns incentives
00:05:56with what's good for you.
00:05:58Use less data,
00:05:59earn money back.
00:06:00And when you do,
00:06:01you'll be living once again
00:06:02in real life,
00:06:03and you're going to like how it feels.
00:06:05Simon Sinek,
00:06:06delighted to see you,
00:06:07as always.
00:06:08It's a joy.
00:06:09Always good to see you.
00:06:10Yeah, you know,
00:06:11I was just thinking about this
00:06:12before we started.
00:06:13Do you remember when we met?
00:06:14A long time ago,
00:06:16in Philadelphia.
00:06:17In Philadelphia, exactly.
00:06:18At a congressional retreat,
00:06:20we were speaking
00:06:20to the assembled members of Congress.
00:06:22Do you remember that?
00:06:23We were,
00:06:23and we were the only two
00:06:25external speakers.
00:06:26Exactly right.
00:06:27And I sat in on your talk.
00:06:28And I sat at your talk
00:06:30and realized you were my older brother.
00:06:31I regret the older part,
00:06:33but I love the brother part.
00:06:35No, it was great.
00:06:36And over the years,
00:06:38we've actually done
00:06:38a lot of things together.
00:06:39We've spoke together
00:06:41on stage a few times.
00:06:43We've done
00:06:43the Aspen Ideas Festival.
00:06:45We've also spent
00:06:45some nice personal time together.
00:06:47And your work
00:06:48has been fundamental
00:06:49to my own.
00:06:50Me and so many of the people
00:06:51have been,
00:06:52over the years,
00:06:53influenced by,
00:06:54for example,
00:06:55Start With Why.
00:06:55I saw that.
00:06:56I saw that famous TEDx talk.
00:06:58TEDx Puget Sound
00:07:00or something, right?
00:07:01That is 100% correct.
00:07:02Yeah.
00:07:02And I saw that
00:07:04and I thought,
00:07:04holy moly,
00:07:05and I thought about it.
00:07:05And only this year,
00:07:07I actually finally wrote a book
00:07:08about the meaning of life.
00:07:09I knew you'd catch up
00:07:10at some point.
00:07:12But of course,
00:07:14I mean,
00:07:14I cite you
00:07:15because how could I not?
00:07:16And the striking thing
00:07:17when I first met you
00:07:18is that your moniker
00:07:19is not, you know,
00:07:21acclaimed holy speaker,
00:07:22number one New York Times
00:07:24bestselling out.
00:07:24It's optimist.
00:07:26What does that mean?
00:07:27So whenever
00:07:27they give me credit
00:07:29for something
00:07:29or you see my name
00:07:30on the back of a book
00:07:31where I've blurbed
00:07:31the book or something,
00:07:33I'm very strict about it.
00:07:34I always tell them
00:07:35to reference me
00:07:36as optimist
00:07:37and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
00:07:38all the other things
00:07:39that I've accomplished.
00:07:40And the reason is very simple
00:07:41is because I want to be
00:07:43defined by who I am,
00:07:45not what I've done.
00:07:45You know,
00:07:46I think it's funny
00:07:46when you read people's bios,
00:07:48you can, you know,
00:07:49we write our own bios,
00:07:50let's be honest, right?
00:07:51And so you read someone's bio
00:07:53and it's like CEO
00:07:54of New York Times
00:07:55bestselling author
00:07:56of Academy Award winning actor,
00:07:59you know.
00:08:00So we're defining ourselves
00:08:01by our jobs
00:08:02or something we did
00:08:0320 years ago.
00:08:05And the problem with that
00:08:06is the accomplishments
00:08:07get further and further away,
00:08:09become less and less relevant.
00:08:10And what happens
00:08:11when you no longer
00:08:12have the job?
00:08:13Then who are you?
00:08:15And so I'm very strict
00:08:16about defining myself
00:08:17by who I am
00:08:18so that if I stop doing
00:08:19any of the things I do,
00:08:21I'll always be an optimist
00:08:21till the day I die.
00:08:22What does that mean
00:08:23to be an optimist?
00:08:24It's the undying belief
00:08:25that the future is bright.
00:08:28I think people confuse
00:08:30positivity and optimism.
00:08:33You know,
00:08:33there is such thing
00:08:34as toxic positivity.
00:08:35I've never heard
00:08:35of toxic optimism.
00:08:37You know,
00:08:37toxic positivity
00:08:38is the denial of reality.
00:08:40Everything's fine.
00:08:40Everything's good.
00:08:41Nothing to see here.
00:08:42Right?
00:08:43Which can be very dangerous
00:08:44in a work context,
00:08:47in a personal context.
00:08:48Optimism is not naive.
00:08:49Optimism accepts reality.
00:08:51Optimism accepts darkness.
00:08:53And optimism sounds more like,
00:08:55you know,
00:08:55we're in this dark place together.
00:08:56It's a dark tunnel.
00:08:57I don't know how long
00:08:58we're going to be in here
00:08:59and I don't know
00:09:00what it's going to take
00:09:00to get out,
00:09:01but I know one thing for sure.
00:09:02There's a light
00:09:03at the end of this tunnel.
00:09:04If we work together
00:09:04and take care of each other,
00:09:05we will get through this
00:09:06and we'll come out of this
00:09:07stronger than we went in.
00:09:08So it is a prediction
00:09:10in point of fact,
00:09:11but it also has a lot
00:09:12of agency involved in it
00:09:13because the whole thing
00:09:14that you said right before
00:09:15we're going to come out
00:09:16of this together
00:09:17is if we work together,
00:09:18we take care of each other,
00:09:19et cetera, et cetera.
00:09:20Right?
00:09:20In other words,
00:09:21we can still screw it up.
00:09:23That's true too.
00:09:24Well, and I think
00:09:24to truly be an optimist,
00:09:26I've never thought about it
00:09:27in these terms,
00:09:28but I think it's hard
00:09:29to be an optimist alone.
00:09:31I think a prerequisite
00:09:33for optimism is relationship
00:09:35because it's one thing
00:09:38for one person
00:09:39to be able to say,
00:09:39don't worry,
00:09:40I'm going to get through this.
00:09:41And that is,
00:09:42grit will do that
00:09:44for you for a while,
00:09:45but exhaustion and time
00:09:47can sometimes take a beating.
00:09:49I think it's hard
00:09:50to be an optimist
00:09:50if you don't have
00:09:52the relationship with others
00:09:54and gratitude
00:09:54for the relationships
00:09:55you have for those others.
00:09:57I'm sure you are,
00:09:58but do you ever reflect
00:10:00on the words
00:10:01of the anchoress,
00:10:03the 14th century anchoress,
00:10:04Julian of Norwich?
00:10:06Or do you know this?
00:10:07You know her most famous quote?
00:10:08First of all,
00:10:09I'm sorry.
00:10:09First of all,
00:10:10this is such an Arthur Brooks thing
00:10:13to say.
00:10:14Yeah, I know.
00:10:15You're like,
00:10:15Simon, you know,
00:10:16I was thinking about Schopenhauer
00:10:18the other day
00:10:18and I know that you think
00:10:19about Schopenhauer a lot.
00:10:20And what do you think
00:10:21about Schopenhauer?
00:10:22I don't,
00:10:22I don't know
00:10:23who you're talking about.
00:10:25This is,
00:10:25that's the most Catholic thing ever.
00:10:26So I apologize for,
00:10:28you know,
00:10:29but you always attribute
00:10:30the best qualities
00:10:30to the people that you love.
00:10:32This is why it's very kind of you.
00:10:33But she has a very famous quote
00:10:35and Julian of Norwich
00:10:37was an anchoress,
00:10:38meaning that she lived
00:10:38in solitude.
00:10:39And her most famous quote
00:10:40is this,
00:10:41and it could have come
00:10:41from Simon Sinek.
00:10:43All will be well
00:10:44and all manner of things
00:10:45shall be well.
00:10:46I completely agree with her.
00:10:49Yeah.
00:10:50You know,
00:10:51the thing,
00:10:51the thing that upsets people,
00:10:52people say,
00:10:52there's two things
00:10:53that I think is very,
00:10:54that I find very interesting.
00:10:55People say to me things like,
00:10:57how can you be an optimist
00:10:58in these times?
00:10:59And my answer is always the same,
00:11:00which is like,
00:11:00well,
00:11:01what good is it being optimist
00:11:02when everything's perfect?
00:11:03That's number one.
00:11:03It's like,
00:11:04these are the times
00:11:05to be an optimist.
00:11:06Like,
00:11:06this is when you need optimism,
00:11:07number one.
00:11:09And how can you be so sure?
00:11:11Right?
00:11:11If you just look at what we're in.
00:11:14And I think optimism requires
00:11:15a long-term view
00:11:19and sometimes very long-term view.
00:11:20My favorite,
00:11:21what keeps me going,
00:11:22what I'm constantly reminded
00:11:23by the founders
00:11:25of the women's American suffrage movement.
00:11:28Every single founder
00:11:29of the suffrage movement in America
00:11:32died before the first woman voted.
00:11:35Of course they wanted to live
00:11:36to see the first woman vote.
00:11:37Of course.
00:11:38Of course.
00:11:38But the fact that they,
00:11:40that they,
00:11:41they worked with such optimism.
00:11:43They worked with such surety
00:11:45that it would happen
00:11:46so long as they build
00:11:47the infrastructure,
00:11:48develop the relationships
00:11:49so that momentum
00:11:50can continue with
00:11:52or without them.
00:11:53They had a view of optimism.
00:11:55They had a,
00:11:55that went in their case
00:11:57beyond their lifetime.
00:11:59Are you naturally an optimist
00:12:00or did you decide
00:12:02to be an optimist?
00:12:03I think both can be true.
00:12:04In my case,
00:12:06my dad's a big optimist
00:12:08and so it was around us
00:12:10as kids.
00:12:11My mother's a little more cynical
00:12:13but I like,
00:12:15I like the combo.
00:12:16And she married a guy
00:12:17whose last name is Cynic.
00:12:18I know,
00:12:19I know.
00:12:19The irony is that.
00:12:20Yeah.
00:12:21I think both can be true.
00:12:23It's like,
00:12:24it's like talent versus skill.
00:12:26You know,
00:12:26it's like one of them
00:12:27you can work at
00:12:28and the other one
00:12:28you kind of,
00:12:29you have a little bit of an edge.
00:12:30I think some can be true.
00:12:31You can have a natural disposition
00:12:33and I think you can work on it
00:12:34because I do think
00:12:35at some level,
00:12:36optimism is a choice.
00:12:37I do believe that.
00:12:38I mean,
00:12:38and that's entirely consistent
00:12:39with all the behavioral science literature
00:12:40and even the study
00:12:41on identical twins,
00:12:42on personality.
00:12:43Happiness is 50% genetic
00:12:45insofar as half
00:12:47of the variance in happiness
00:12:48is explained by DNA.
00:12:50And so it has to be so
00:12:51with optimism as well.
00:12:52And you've gotten better
00:12:53at it over the years
00:12:54through the environment
00:12:55and the way that you live
00:12:56and your habits.
00:12:57And the choices I've made.
00:12:58What I'm hoping
00:12:58that we're going to get to today
00:12:59is the optimism protocols.
00:13:01I mean,
00:13:02I realize that this is
00:13:03the optimism optimization.
00:13:05How about that?
00:13:07Optimizing for optimism.
00:13:08Oh, nice, nice, nice.
00:13:10But I want to make
00:13:11one distinction here
00:13:12because there's just
00:13:12a little bit of a linguistic one,
00:13:14which is the difference
00:13:15between optimism and hope.
00:13:16How do you think
00:13:17about those two things
00:13:18in contrast to each other?
00:13:19Are you a hopeful person?
00:13:21I never use the word hope.
00:13:23It's funny.
00:13:23I mean, I guess I do.
00:13:24I'm sure I do.
00:13:25If somebody were to go back
00:13:25and evaluate all the things
00:13:26I've said,
00:13:26I probably said it.
00:13:27But it's not one of those words
00:13:29that's sort of my go-to word.
00:13:30And it's not that
00:13:31I'm against the word,
00:13:32but to me,
00:13:33the connotation of hope
00:13:35lacks the agency.
00:13:37The connotation of hope
00:13:39is more like holding,
00:13:41crossing one's fingers
00:13:42and waiting.
00:13:44I hope I win the lottery.
00:13:46I hope this works out.
00:13:47I hope I feel better tomorrow.
00:13:48I hope I feel better tomorrow.
00:13:50It's kind of a waiting
00:13:51for the world
00:13:53to give you the thing
00:13:54that you want.
00:13:55Where to me,
00:13:56optimism,
00:13:57though, of course,
00:13:58there are external factors,
00:14:00of course,
00:14:01beyond our control.
00:14:02But to me,
00:14:03optimism is the clarity
00:14:04and surety.
00:14:05I think that the close bedfellow
00:14:07for optimism is vision.
00:14:09That I have clear vision
00:14:10and I'm going to strive
00:14:12towards that
00:14:13no matter what.
00:14:14Interesting.
00:14:15So I hope I win the lottery.
00:14:16I hope I feel better tomorrow.
00:14:17I hope the economy turns around.
00:14:19I hope my health starts to improve,
00:14:21which is, you know,
00:14:22waiting for the outside world
00:14:24to change.
00:14:25Yeah.
00:14:25And then there's a more
00:14:26sort of theological
00:14:26understanding of that.
00:14:28So many religions,
00:14:30including Christians and Jews,
00:14:31see hope as a divine virtue
00:14:34insofar as that you're saying,
00:14:36I can do it,
00:14:37which adds the agency to it.
00:14:38So it kind of depends
00:14:39on how you define hope,
00:14:40doesn't it?
00:14:40Like anything else.
00:14:41I mean, we're looking at this.
00:14:42Interestingly,
00:14:43the verb to hope in Spanish
00:14:44is esperar,
00:14:45which also means to wait.
00:14:46That makes sense to me.
00:14:47That's revealing.
00:14:48I mean, I think,
00:14:49look,
00:14:50I've obviously used the word hope,
00:14:52you know,
00:14:52when I say like,
00:14:53oh, you know,
00:14:54I hope they're going to be okay.
00:14:55There's a flash flood,
00:14:57you know,
00:14:58I hope they're going to be okay.
00:15:01You know,
00:15:01I can make a donation,
00:15:02I guess,
00:15:02but I don't know,
00:15:04you know?
00:15:05And even when Obama
00:15:06ran his campaign
00:15:07and the poster said hope,
00:15:08what he was asking
00:15:10the electorate
00:15:11is put your hope
00:15:13in this person.
00:15:14You know,
00:15:14yeah,
00:15:14I think waiting and hoping,
00:15:16I think are very,
00:15:17that's a very,
00:15:18I think Spanish
00:15:18is revealing a truth there.
00:15:20And by the way,
00:15:21that's perfectly,
00:15:22I think that's perfectly
00:15:23legitimate sometimes.
00:15:24You know,
00:15:24when somebody says,
00:15:25I hope this works out
00:15:25and somebody's other response
00:15:26is just wait.
00:15:28That's perfectly,
00:15:29that's perfectly legitimate.
00:15:30Give it time,
00:15:32have some patience,
00:15:33it will be fine,
00:15:34is perfectly legitimate.
00:15:36I want everybody
00:15:36to be really clear on this
00:15:37is that whether it's hope
00:15:39or it's optimism,
00:15:40there is a better future.
00:15:42We can achieve it,
00:15:44but we have to participate
00:15:45in that better future.
00:15:47Those are the three parts,
00:15:48the three Simon Sinek
00:15:49ingredients to optimism,
00:15:51correct?
00:15:52Yeah,
00:15:52I think that's right.
00:15:53I believe that you have
00:15:54to earn the right to complain.
00:15:55I think it is unacceptable
00:15:56to complain about
00:15:58something political,
00:16:00for example,
00:16:01if you don't vote.
00:16:02When I talk about
00:16:03you earn the right to complain,
00:16:04the bar is incredibly low.
00:16:06Like,
00:16:06you have to have done
00:16:07the minimal amount
00:16:08to contribute to the thing
00:16:09you're complaining about
00:16:10in order to complain about it.
00:16:12But if you have done nothing
00:16:13to contribute nothing,
00:16:15I don't believe
00:16:16you have the right to complain.
00:16:17then you can just hope.
00:16:18Yeah.
00:16:20These are the ingredients.
00:16:21And by the way,
00:16:22there's no reason
00:16:22to get wrapped around
00:16:23the axle about this.
00:16:25There is a better future,
00:16:26but we all must participate
00:16:27to make it so.
00:16:28And please don't anyone
00:16:29send me any emails.
00:16:31I don't care about
00:16:33semantic rabbit holes.
00:16:35You know,
00:16:35it doesn't matter
00:16:36what the dictionary says.
00:16:36If somebody interprets
00:16:37the term hope
00:16:38the way I talk
00:16:40about the word optimism,
00:16:41and they're going to fight me
00:16:42that their definition
00:16:43of hope is different,
00:16:46that's fine.
00:16:47Then the word hope
00:16:48is wonderful.
00:16:49The words are irrelevant
00:16:51so long as the meaning
00:16:53is consistent.
00:16:55And I think too often
00:16:56we fight about words
00:16:57when we should be
00:16:58dealing with meaning.
00:16:59So I think that kind of
00:17:00what gets to this distinction
00:17:03here is the famous
00:17:05Stockdale paradox
00:17:06named for Admiral Stockdale
00:17:07in the Vietnam War.
00:17:08He was an incredible
00:17:09Vietnam War hero.
00:17:10He actually went on
00:17:11to have this post-war career
00:17:13when he came back
00:17:13from the Hanoi Hilton
00:17:15where he was staying.
00:17:17Notorious prisoner
00:17:17of war camp.
00:17:18He actually was
00:17:19the vice presidential
00:17:19candidate under
00:17:20Ross Perot in 1992.
00:17:22I actually remember that.
00:17:24Extraordinarily, yeah.
00:17:25He was a great
00:17:25American hero.
00:17:26And one of the things
00:17:27that he talked about
00:17:27was the prisoners of war
00:17:29who survived
00:17:30and those who didn't.
00:17:31Those who died,
00:17:32they said,
00:17:33yeah, guys,
00:17:34it's like,
00:17:35you know,
00:17:36stay happy
00:17:37because we're going
00:17:38to get out of here
00:17:38by Thanksgiving
00:17:39and Thanksgiving
00:17:39would come and go
00:17:40and they wouldn't be done.
00:17:41He said,
00:17:41oh, don't worry,
00:17:42we're going to be
00:17:42out of here by Easter
00:17:43and Easter would come and go.
00:17:44And he said,
00:17:44they died of a broken heart.
00:17:46But the ones
00:17:47who actually survived
00:17:48were the ones
00:17:49who said,
00:17:49we're going to get out.
00:17:51I don't know when.
00:17:53That sounds like you.
00:17:54Is that fair?
00:17:55I think that's 100% true.
00:17:56It's also the difference
00:17:56between a finite
00:17:57and infinite mindset.
00:17:58The ones that struggle,
00:17:59and my friend,
00:18:00Leopoldo Lopez,
00:18:02who was the prisoner of,
00:18:04a political prisoner
00:18:05in Venezuela.
00:18:07He was a prisoner
00:18:08of Maduro's
00:18:09kept in solitary confinement
00:18:11for four years
00:18:12and prison for seven.
00:18:14He said the same thing,
00:18:15which is,
00:18:16the problem is the goal,
00:18:17is the deadline.
00:18:18And when you have
00:18:19moving goalposts,
00:18:20it becomes demoralizing
00:18:21to the point of
00:18:23nothing is getting answered.
00:18:24So it's an infinite
00:18:25versus a finite mindset.
00:18:26And not to make the analogy,
00:18:28you know,
00:18:28I know we're talking about
00:18:29philosophy and not business,
00:18:30but I think the same is true
00:18:31when companies define
00:18:33their purpose
00:18:34based on a finite deadline
00:18:35or finite goal
00:18:36at the end of the year
00:18:37and then they just keep
00:18:38moving the goal
00:18:39as their purpose,
00:18:40at some point,
00:18:41you will feel like
00:18:41this job is not worth it.
00:18:43Which is kind of like
00:18:43a giving up
00:18:44without the existential component.
00:18:46Yeah, yeah, no.
00:18:47And in business,
00:18:48that's a really,
00:18:49really good point.
00:18:50And that's a point
00:18:50that you make
00:18:51in The Infinite Game,
00:18:52which is a great book also.
00:18:54We're talking a lot
00:18:55about Start With Why
00:18:56and your personal philosophy,
00:18:57but it's manifest
00:18:59in Long,
00:19:00Leaders Eat Last,
00:19:01all these really important
00:19:02books that you've written.
00:19:03I mean, it just takes
00:19:04different shape
00:19:05in different ways.
00:19:06I see that infinite game idea
00:19:08with respect to hope
00:19:09and what I talk about
00:19:10is relationships that work
00:19:11and relationships that don't.
00:19:12And one of the things
00:19:13that I find about
00:19:13marriages die of a broken heart,
00:19:17it's not that somebody's abandoned.
00:19:19It's just that the promises
00:19:20are never met
00:19:22because somebody's waiting.
00:19:23And the intention
00:19:25is never actually
00:19:25to do the thing
00:19:26that's being promised.
00:19:28The intention is to say,
00:19:29no, there will be
00:19:30a better future.
00:19:31I will stop traveling.
00:19:32I will be ready
00:19:33to have children.
00:19:34No, no, no.
00:19:35Not now, baby,
00:19:35but I will be.
00:19:36I like that
00:19:37and I agree with that
00:19:37and I want to add
00:19:38a nuance to that,
00:19:40which is because
00:19:41the way you define
00:19:42this broken heart
00:19:43and broken promises,
00:19:45if you simply fulfill
00:19:46the promises,
00:19:47then you won't
00:19:48break the hearts.
00:19:49Speaking from
00:19:49a lot of failed relationships,
00:19:51I'm an expert
00:19:54in this subject,
00:19:55by the way.
00:19:57I think that's
00:19:58field research
00:19:59for a certain number
00:20:00of years.
00:20:00Yeah, exactly.
00:20:01I did it for science.
00:20:03Yeah, that's good.
00:20:04You just give and give.
00:20:06I think that's
00:20:06a very high bar
00:20:07because I think sometimes,
00:20:10and I think it's
00:20:10too high a bar
00:20:11and an unfair bar,
00:20:12if I may be so bold,
00:20:13because sometimes
00:20:14I think we say things
00:20:15with very good intention
00:20:16and this is,
00:20:19you know,
00:20:19optimists run late
00:20:20a lot, by the way,
00:20:22because they think
00:20:23the train will be there
00:20:24exactly on time.
00:20:25I think people
00:20:26in relationships
00:20:27make promises,
00:20:29little p promises,
00:20:30you know,
00:20:31big p promises
00:20:31are a different conversation,
00:20:32but little p promises,
00:20:33like,
00:20:34with very good intention,
00:20:36sometimes ignorant
00:20:36of all the other factors.
00:20:39Like,
00:20:39I promise I'll be there
00:20:40on time.
00:20:41I left early.
00:20:42I didn't know
00:20:42there was going to be a,
00:20:43like,
00:20:44I left at the right time.
00:20:45I didn't know
00:20:45there was going to be
00:20:46an extra bad
00:20:46accident that day.
00:20:48The way I think
00:20:48of broken promises
00:20:49or the way I think
00:20:50of a broken heart
00:20:51is more internal.
00:20:54It's our expectation
00:20:55of another
00:20:56rather than
00:20:57their failing
00:20:58to maintain
00:20:58their promises.
00:20:59It's what I hear
00:21:01was promised
00:21:01versus what I expected.
00:21:03So one of the best lines
00:21:04I've ever heard,
00:21:05I read in a relationship book
00:21:07that said,
00:21:07we all live
00:21:08with the fantasy
00:21:09that our partners
00:21:10can read our minds.
00:21:12Why didn't you do that?
00:21:13I didn't know
00:21:13I had to do it.
00:21:14You should know
00:21:14that you have to do that.
00:21:15Why should I?
00:21:16Because you and I
00:21:17are in a relationship
00:21:18and you know me,
00:21:18you should know
00:21:19that I would want that.
00:21:20That's where
00:21:21the broken heart comes
00:21:22as opposed to saying,
00:21:23you know,
00:21:23it would make me really happy
00:21:24if you could do this.
00:21:26And the other person,
00:21:27instead of just saying yes,
00:21:28because then you set up
00:21:28broken promise,
00:21:29says,
00:21:30I want to,
00:21:31can you help me?
00:21:32And I have found
00:21:33that living with the fantasy
00:21:34of recognizing that,
00:21:36that we all live
00:21:36with the fantasy
00:21:36that our partners,
00:21:38our colleagues,
00:21:38our friends
00:21:39can read our minds.
00:21:41That would,
00:21:42to me,
00:21:42changed everything.
00:21:43that's like,
00:21:44but that,
00:21:44I guess that would be
00:21:46a toxic optimism
00:21:47about your relationship,
00:21:48right?
00:21:48It's this sort of
00:21:49cockeyed optimism
00:21:50that the person
00:21:51who loves you so much
00:21:52can also read your mind.
00:21:53Yeah,
00:21:53I mean,
00:21:53I wouldn't call that optimism.
00:21:55I'd call that hope.
00:21:57You'd actually call that delusion.
00:21:59I'd call that delusion.
00:22:01But we all do it.
00:22:01We all do it.
00:22:02We all do it.
00:22:03Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:04No, no,
00:22:05it's actually,
00:22:05you know,
00:22:05in the work that I do,
00:22:07in the work that my wife
00:22:07and I are doing
00:22:08on relationships,
00:22:09we find,
00:22:10for example,
00:22:11a significantly greater
00:22:12than half of divorces
00:22:15are initiated by wives
00:22:16who are just deeply,
00:22:17deeply disappointed.
00:22:19They're disappointed
00:22:19in their relationships.
00:22:20They're disappointed
00:22:21in the fact that,
00:22:22you know,
00:22:22what they wanted
00:22:24in their lives
00:22:25has become unachievable.
00:22:26And the end of optimism
00:22:28is often the death of love.
00:22:30I mean,
00:22:31look,
00:22:31I think one of the greatest
00:22:32damaging things
00:22:33that ever happened
00:22:33to relationships
00:22:34is the movie
00:22:35Jerry Maguire.
00:22:36I don't know if you remember
00:22:36the movie of Jerry Maguire.
00:22:37Oh, yeah,
00:22:38there's a sports agent,
00:22:39Tom Cruise.
00:22:39Sports agent,
00:22:39Tom Cruise, right.
00:22:40And Renee Zellweger says,
00:22:42I didn't fall in love
00:22:43with who you are.
00:22:43I fell in love
00:22:44with who the man you can be.
00:22:45Please don't do that.
00:22:46Please fall in love
00:22:47with who somebody is,
00:22:49not who you think
00:22:51they can be
00:22:51because that
00:22:52is a fantasy version
00:22:54of the person
00:22:54that they may or may
00:22:55not live up to.
00:22:56But there's a video
00:22:57that's going around
00:22:58on the internets
00:22:59that I really love
00:23:00that when you treat someone
00:23:02like the person
00:23:04you think that they can be,
00:23:06they are more likely
00:23:07to become that person
00:23:08because they have the support.
00:23:10And that goes back
00:23:10to what I was saying before,
00:23:11which is its relationship
00:23:12and support structure
00:23:13and our ability
00:23:14to take ourselves on
00:23:15with all that positive affirmation
00:23:16and reinforcement.
00:23:17like, look what you did there.
00:23:19That's, that's,
00:23:20I knew that you could do that
00:23:21versus how could you
00:23:21get that wrong again?
00:23:23But when we treat people
00:23:24as if they are already
00:23:26the person,
00:23:27they are more likely
00:23:28to become that person.
00:23:28I thought that was wonderful.
00:23:29It really is.
00:23:30And by the way,
00:23:30that's the secret
00:23:31to parenting.
00:23:32The secret to parenting
00:23:33is treating your child
00:23:35the way you want
00:23:35your child to be.
00:23:37And, and, and sometimes
00:23:38you become disappointed,
00:23:39but more often than not,
00:23:41they live up to expectation.
00:23:42That was a point
00:23:43actually made by Dale Carnegie
00:23:45and how to win friends
00:23:46and influence people
00:23:47in 1936.
00:23:49He talked about,
00:23:50let, give people
00:23:51a good reputation
00:23:52to live up to.
00:23:53And I remember that,
00:23:54you know, with our sons
00:23:55and daughter,
00:23:56we would say,
00:23:57you're actually
00:23:58very hardworking.
00:23:59In, in marriages,
00:24:00it's slightly a different thing.
00:24:01There's the old expression
00:24:02that wives think
00:24:05they can change their husbands
00:24:06and they can't.
00:24:07And husbands think
00:24:09their wives won't change
00:24:11and they do.
00:24:11And so our expectations
00:24:13about the future,
00:24:14I mean, I don't know
00:24:14if it's true,
00:24:15but the whole point is this,
00:24:16you got to have
00:24:16rational expectations
00:24:17and, and they should
00:24:19be positive ones
00:24:20and you should be an agent
00:24:21in making them come true.
00:24:22I think sometimes
00:24:23we also have
00:24:23irrational expectations.
00:24:24And so, you know,
00:24:25the, the concept of narrative
00:24:26and it's the, it,
00:24:27you can put,
00:24:28you can apply it
00:24:28to relationships,
00:24:29but you see it
00:24:29very starkly in,
00:24:31in businesses.
00:24:32You know,
00:24:32the leadership team
00:24:33gets together
00:24:33and they're talking
00:24:35about the issues
00:24:35and then the name
00:24:37of somebody
00:24:37on the team
00:24:38comes up
00:24:39and somebody goes,
00:24:40oh, he's so lazy.
00:24:41And now
00:24:42the entire leadership team
00:24:44thinks of that person
00:24:45as lazy
00:24:45because that,
00:24:46that term has been
00:24:47used to associate
00:24:47with them.
00:24:48Then they come up
00:24:49with a stupid moniker
00:24:49like, oh,
00:24:50it's lazy Dave again,
00:24:51right?
00:24:51Lazy Dave didn't get
00:24:52the work done.
00:24:53Lazy Dave missed
00:24:53another deadline.
00:24:54Why are we surprised?
00:24:56Right?
00:24:56And now we treat
00:24:57Dave as lazy
00:24:58and we will seek
00:24:59all the evidence
00:25:00that Dave is lazy.
00:25:02We will come down
00:25:03hard on Dave
00:25:04because he's lazy
00:25:05and eventually
00:25:05Dave will quit
00:25:05or get fired
00:25:06because he's lazy.
00:25:07And so I've seen
00:25:08this happen a million times.
00:25:09We're all guilty of it,
00:25:10myself included.
00:25:11And when I recognized
00:25:12that we had narratives
00:25:14of people in our company
00:25:15that, you know,
00:25:15I don't even work with them.
00:25:16I don't even know
00:25:17if they are
00:25:17or not these things.
00:25:18I just believe
00:25:19the person
00:25:20who's their manager,
00:25:21who's their leader,
00:25:22right?
00:25:23And so when I realized
00:25:24it was happening
00:25:24in our company,
00:25:25I came up with a system
00:25:26to interrupt.
00:25:27And so if anybody
00:25:29said anything,
00:25:29and by the way,
00:25:30the same as creating
00:25:31heroes out of people,
00:25:32oh, they can't do
00:25:33anything wrong, right?
00:25:34Right, right, right.
00:25:34The hero complex
00:25:36is also bad, bad, bad.
00:25:38So if anybody
00:25:38would create
00:25:39an imagined narrative
00:25:41about someone,
00:25:42I would expect
00:25:43anyone in the room
00:25:44to say,
00:25:44hold on a second,
00:25:46that may be true,
00:25:47or we haven't given
00:25:49them good direction,
00:25:49they're in the wrong position,
00:25:50they had a bad night's sleep,
00:25:51they've got stuff going on
00:25:52in their private life,
00:25:52or they're lazy.
00:25:54Any one of those
00:25:54could be true.
00:25:55And benefit of doubt,
00:25:57I think grace,
00:25:59grace,
00:25:59giving people grace
00:26:00that sometimes
00:26:02we are the ones
00:26:04that are setting
00:26:05the expectation
00:26:05in our imaginations,
00:26:07and someone
00:26:07is not meeting
00:26:08the expectations
00:26:09that we set
00:26:11in our imaginations
00:26:12that have never
00:26:12communicated to anybody
00:26:13and never given
00:26:13anybody any feedback.
00:26:15I think we do this
00:26:16at work,
00:26:16and I think we do this
00:26:16in our relationships.
00:26:18And the idea
00:26:19of communicating
00:26:20the good, bad,
00:26:21and the ugly,
00:26:22and teaching people
00:26:23how to listen
00:26:23and how to communicate
00:26:24is the solution
00:26:26to all of this stuff,
00:26:27because then it's
00:26:29all out on the table.
00:26:29As you know
00:26:30from listening
00:26:31to this show,
00:26:32I've never been
00:26:32a supernaturally
00:26:34happy person.
00:26:35That's exactly
00:26:36why I've spent
00:26:36much of my life
00:26:37and my career
00:26:38trying to understand
00:26:39human happiness,
00:26:40not just academically,
00:26:42but in a way
00:26:43that I could use
00:26:44very practically,
00:26:45and you can too.
00:26:47I don't do research,
00:26:47I do me-search.
00:26:49Well, and you-search.
00:26:50My time in academia
00:26:51has reinforced
00:26:52the lesson
00:26:53I continue to rely
00:26:54on today.
00:26:55Happiness,
00:26:56well, and energy
00:26:57are best managed
00:26:58through deliberate habits
00:26:59and discipline.
00:27:00I take my personal
00:27:02habits seriously.
00:27:03I need to.
00:27:04I have a morning routine.
00:27:05I've talked about it
00:27:06on this show.
00:27:07It involves prayer
00:27:08and exercise
00:27:09and healthy eating
00:27:10and a lot of coffee
00:27:12while taking it
00:27:13at the right time.
00:27:14But in my creative work,
00:27:15I've long looked
00:27:16for a gold star supplement
00:27:18to that routine
00:27:19that helps me
00:27:20take charge of my day.
00:27:22I came across
00:27:23Magic Mind.
00:27:24Now, I was skeptical
00:27:25at first, honestly,
00:27:26because there's a lot
00:27:27of noise
00:27:27in the supplement space
00:27:29and most of it
00:27:30really doesn't hold up
00:27:31to the science
00:27:32or human experience.
00:27:34But Magic Mind
00:27:35has ingredients
00:27:36that I like.
00:27:38Adaptogens,
00:27:38nootropics,
00:27:39such as lion's mane,
00:27:40ashwagandha,
00:27:42cognizine, L-theanine.
00:27:43These are clinically
00:27:44backed compounds
00:27:45with real research
00:27:47behind them.
00:27:47Magic Mind
00:27:48is a two-ounce shot
00:27:49that you take
00:27:50in the morning.
00:27:51You don't get jitters.
00:27:52There's no crash.
00:27:53It's just your brain
00:27:54working the way
00:27:54it's supposed to,
00:27:56calm, sustained,
00:27:57and focused.
00:27:58If the same cup of coffee
00:28:00every morning
00:28:01has started to feel
00:28:01more like a crutch
00:28:02than a ritual,
00:28:03or if you're just
00:28:04tired of it,
00:28:05it might be worth
00:28:06trying something
00:28:07that actually works
00:28:08with your neurobiology
00:28:09rather than against it.
00:28:11Right now,
00:28:11you can go to
00:28:12www.magicmind.com
00:28:15that's all one word
00:28:16and get 50% off
00:28:18your first order
00:28:18plus a 100-day
00:28:20money-back guarantee.
00:28:21So, you really
00:28:22have nothing to lose
00:28:23by trying it.
00:28:24You can also find
00:28:25Magic Mind
00:28:26in stores near you
00:28:27using the store locator
00:28:28at magicmind.com.
00:28:30Do you think optimism
00:28:31is falling generally today?
00:28:33Yeah.
00:28:34Yeah.
00:28:35Why do you think that?
00:28:35Because pessimism
00:28:36sells advertising.
00:28:39Pessimism sells clicks.
00:28:41I mean, look at AI.
00:28:43AI, the narrative
00:28:44that AI is going
00:28:45to take everybody's job.
00:28:47AI is less popular
00:28:48in our nation right now
00:28:49than the war in Iran.
00:28:51And they did it
00:28:52to themselves
00:28:53because the pessimistic view
00:28:57and the scary view
00:28:58of AI
00:28:59was very good
00:29:00for fundraising.
00:29:01And that's why they did it
00:29:02because it helped raise money.
00:29:04And then you had CEOs
00:29:05like Jack Dorsey
00:29:06announcing the layoffs
00:29:07of 6,000 people
00:29:08because AI can do the work
00:29:09which is an absolute nonsense.
00:29:11AI technology
00:29:12is absolutely not good enough
00:29:13to just suddenly lay off
00:29:146,000 people.
00:29:15We're just not there yet.
00:29:16But he overhired.
00:29:18He was bloated.
00:29:18And if he tells the market,
00:29:20oh, yeah, I was super bloated
00:29:22and overhired
00:29:23and I got to lay off
00:29:23all these people,
00:29:24his stock price will go down.
00:29:25And if he says,
00:29:26we're replacing these people
00:29:27with AI,
00:29:28it looks like he's
00:29:28on the cutting edge.
00:29:29And so this idea
00:29:30of narrative and fear,
00:29:32and we know
00:29:33that what bleeds leads,
00:29:34we know that
00:29:34because you sell
00:29:36advertising on the news,
00:29:38we, you know,
00:29:39if it was non-commercial,
00:29:40we wouldn't be
00:29:40in this predicament,
00:29:42but by scary messages
00:29:43and pessimistic messages
00:29:45and our lizard brain
00:29:46that, you know,
00:29:49is much more attracted
00:29:50to those things
00:29:50because the paranoia
00:29:52keeps us alive.
00:29:53So yes,
00:29:53in general,
00:29:54I think not just for politics,
00:29:57but for short-termism,
00:29:58the drive for stock price,
00:30:00the drive for money,
00:30:01the drive to get reelected
00:30:02and the sacrifice of cause
00:30:04and the sacrifice of service,
00:30:06the simple answer is yes,
00:30:07I think there's less optimism.
00:30:08And the negativity
00:30:09that's in the social media culture,
00:30:11of course,
00:30:13is adding fuel
00:30:13to all of this, right?
00:30:14Maybe it's the biggest engine
00:30:15of all this
00:30:16is how social media
00:30:17actually replicates
00:30:18the negative
00:30:19much, much faster
00:30:20than positive.
00:30:20Is that fair?
00:30:21Negativity sells better.
00:30:23Victimization sells better.
00:30:24The reason you aren't
00:30:25doing well in your life,
00:30:26the reason you hate yourself
00:30:27is because of this person
00:30:28or this group of people
00:30:29or this gender
00:30:30or this whatever it is, right?
00:30:32The negativity
00:30:32helps us feel less responsible
00:30:34for the positions
00:30:35we're in in our lives
00:30:35if it's somebody else's fault.
00:30:37It's fair to say that
00:30:38if there were some way
00:30:39to make optimism great again,
00:30:43to coin a phrase,
00:30:44that that would actually
00:30:45make the world a lot better.
00:30:46The answer is yes.
00:30:49The way I would rephrase it
00:30:50is not optimism but vision.
00:30:51And I did equate those two
00:30:53earlier in our conversation.
00:30:54What I want more of
00:30:55in our nation
00:30:56is leaders with vision,
00:31:00leaders who can articulate vision,
00:31:02not just a short-term goal,
00:31:04not just a solution,
00:31:05but rather something,
00:31:07the light at the end
00:31:08of the tunnel
00:31:08that if we all work together
00:31:10and do the right thing,
00:31:12expecting that we'll make mistakes,
00:31:13expecting that we'll disagree,
00:31:15that we will reach there.
00:31:16And whether it's
00:31:17all men are created equal
00:31:18or shining city on a hill
00:31:20or ask not what your country can do,
00:31:22ask what you can do
00:31:23for your country,
00:31:24all of these are reclassifications,
00:31:27retellings of the same vision,
00:31:29the original vision
00:31:30from the Declaration of Independence.
00:31:32And it's an ideal.
00:31:34We'll never get there,
00:31:35but we'll die trying.
00:31:36And that's kind of the point.
00:31:37You know Daniel Goleman's work,
00:31:38of course,
00:31:39who's fantastic on leadership.
00:31:41And he has a great year 2000 article
00:31:45called Leadership That Gets Results.
00:31:47Looks at these six big leadership models.
00:31:50And some of them look good,
00:31:51but are terrible,
00:31:52like being a pace-setting leader
00:31:54who's hopelessly workaholic.
00:31:55That's the worst kind of CEO
00:31:56or a coercive leader
00:31:58who barks orders down the hall
00:32:00and intimidates everybody.
00:32:01Some of it's pretty obvious,
00:32:02but by far the most successful leaders
00:32:05in business
00:32:06were those who were authoritative,
00:32:09not authoritarian,
00:32:10authoritative.
00:32:11And by that he meant
00:32:12that would be kind of Jim Collins level
00:32:14where they had a super clear
00:32:16mission and vision.
00:32:18Mission mean here's what we do.
00:32:20Vision means here's where we want to go.
00:32:22And what they did was
00:32:23that they coached everybody
00:32:24to become,
00:32:25had to do their part.
00:32:26They saw the part
00:32:27that everybody plays.
00:32:28These leaders would say,
00:32:29do you see a better future?
00:32:30Let me describe it.
00:32:31It's going to be great.
00:32:33And by the way,
00:32:34you have a part in it
00:32:35that nobody else can play.
00:32:36It's going to be great
00:32:37is insufficient.
00:32:38It's going to be great
00:32:38is insufficient
00:32:39because it's going to be great
00:32:40is vague
00:32:41and I don't know
00:32:42what I'm aiming towards.
00:32:44True vision
00:32:44is an articulation
00:32:46of a future state
00:32:47that does not yet exist,
00:32:49stated in terms
00:32:50so clearly
00:32:51that I too
00:32:52can imagine it myself.
00:32:55And by imagine,
00:32:55I mean it literally lives
00:32:56in my head,
00:32:57in my imagination.
00:32:58But my picture in my head
00:32:59is the same picture
00:33:00as your head,
00:33:01in your head.
00:33:03And so that's what vision is.
00:33:05And so it's going to be great,
00:33:06this amorphous nonsense.
00:33:07That actually doesn't help
00:33:09because I can't strive for great
00:33:10because I don't know
00:33:11what I'm going towards.
00:33:12I think that's true.
00:33:13And the way I would,
00:33:14I don't like the word
00:33:15authoritative
00:33:16though I agree with it
00:33:17because I think
00:33:17it's too easily misinterpreted.
00:33:20But another way
00:33:20of rephrasing authoritative
00:33:22is stubbornly optimistic.
00:33:23I think you are stubbornly optimistic
00:33:25that no matter what's happening
00:33:26you're like,
00:33:26guys, just come on.
00:33:28Can't you see
00:33:29what we're doing here?
00:33:30Like we're getting closer.
00:33:31Yeah, I know
00:33:32we got kicked in the stomach
00:33:33this month
00:33:33but look,
00:33:34we're getting closer.
00:33:35We got momentum.
00:33:36Like that stubborn optimism
00:33:37is something
00:33:38we would all
00:33:39want to be a part of.
00:33:41Well, at what point
00:33:42does stubborn optimism
00:33:43actually become delusion?
00:33:44You and I work
00:33:45with business leaders
00:33:45all the time
00:33:46and you know,
00:33:47you talk to people
00:33:48who have a vision
00:33:49of in their heads
00:33:50they have a bad business model
00:33:53for example, right?
00:33:54How do you actually
00:33:55coach people on that?
00:33:56Delusion I think
00:33:58is very usually
00:33:59if you're stubbornly optimistic
00:34:02you believe so much
00:34:04in achieving that goal
00:34:06for the greater good
00:34:07that you were willing
00:34:08to say,
00:34:08you know what?
00:34:09I'm not qualified
00:34:10to lead this company.
00:34:12You were willing to say
00:34:13I'm the one getting in the way.
00:34:15I think if you're delusional
00:34:17it's about you.
00:34:18I think delusion
00:34:19is you think
00:34:20you have a savior complex
00:34:21that only you,
00:34:22only you
00:34:23and I think that's false.
00:34:25I think the truly optimistic leaders
00:34:26recognize that
00:34:27they're a piece of a puzzle
00:34:28but they're not the whole puzzle.
00:34:30Every great leader
00:34:31I've ever met
00:34:31never imagined
00:34:33they would achieve
00:34:34what they achieved
00:34:34in terms of fame
00:34:36or money
00:34:37or even rank
00:34:39but
00:34:40no matter what
00:34:41they were stubbornly
00:34:42optimistic about
00:34:43the vision
00:34:43that they wanted
00:34:44to contribute to
00:34:45regardless
00:34:45of where in the pecking order
00:34:47they were contributing.
00:34:48What are the personal practices
00:34:50that people listening to us
00:34:51should be considering
00:34:52to become more of an optimist?
00:34:54Allowing one's brain,
00:34:55allowing one's mind
00:34:56to wander.
00:34:58We underappreciate boredom.
00:35:01We think any blank space
00:35:03needs to be filled.
00:35:04We bring our phones everywhere.
00:35:05I think they should ban
00:35:06bringing phones
00:35:07into bathrooms
00:35:08and restaurants
00:35:09because I'm now
00:35:11waiting outside a bathroom
00:35:12for 20 minutes
00:35:12because somebody has to
00:35:13go on Instagram
00:35:14for, you know,
00:35:15while I'm waiting outside.
00:35:16Like,
00:35:17we fill every blank space
00:35:19and allowing our minds
00:35:21to wander
00:35:21is absolutely essential
00:35:23because that's where
00:35:24imagination
00:35:24but also it's very calming
00:35:25and I think it's good
00:35:26for the body.
00:35:27I think it's relaxing
00:35:28and you don't have
00:35:29any great ideas
00:35:30unless you allow
00:35:31your mind to wander.
00:35:33all the great ideas
00:35:34happen when you're
00:35:35in the shower
00:35:36or going for a run
00:35:37or in the car.
00:35:38That's because you're,
00:35:39because you're,
00:35:40you don't have
00:35:40your phone with you
00:35:41and you're disconnected.
00:35:42You need more white space.
00:35:43What's,
00:35:44what,
00:35:44what then?
00:35:44We put a little
00:35:45too much pressure
00:35:48on people
00:35:48to be visionary.
00:35:50Not everybody
00:35:50is visionary,
00:35:52right?
00:35:52Like,
00:35:52some people have
00:35:53better imaginations
00:35:54than others.
00:35:54Like,
00:35:55some people can draw
00:35:55better than others,
00:35:56right?
00:35:57Like,
00:35:57it's not a good thing
00:35:58or a bad thing.
00:35:58It's just like
00:35:59we have different,
00:35:59we have different attributes
00:36:00and characteristics
00:36:01and have a vision
00:36:03like Steve Jobs
00:36:07or Martin Luther King,
00:36:08right?
00:36:08If you do have imagination,
00:36:09go ahead and,
00:36:10you know,
00:36:10come up with something
00:36:10and see it.
00:36:11If you don't,
00:36:12find someone who does,
00:36:14whose,
00:36:14whose vision of the world
00:36:15you really,
00:36:16really like
00:36:16and latch onto it.
00:36:17And that's what happens
00:36:18with great leaders.
00:36:19They put a vision
00:36:20into words
00:36:21that help me
00:36:22put what I want
00:36:23into words,
00:36:24right?
00:36:25I've been trying
00:36:26to say that
00:36:27is what you will
00:36:28hear people say
00:36:29or,
00:36:29oh my God,
00:36:30yes,
00:36:30that.
00:36:31So you don't have
00:36:32to have your own vision
00:36:34but you do have
00:36:34to find a vision
00:36:35and if somebody else
00:36:36has articulated it,
00:36:37follow their cause
00:36:38or steal their vision
00:36:39and can,
00:36:40because great visionaries
00:36:41don't mind
00:36:42who's contributing
00:36:43from what angle,
00:36:44steal it,
00:36:45steal it,
00:36:45add it to your company,
00:36:46who cares?
00:36:47Yeah,
00:36:47the make or buy decision
00:36:49is your role in it
00:36:49when it actually comes
00:36:50to a better vision
00:36:51for your own life.
00:36:52Where do they go?
00:36:52I mean,
00:36:53I think
00:36:53you have to
00:36:55take the world in,
00:36:57right?
00:36:57You have to be
00:36:58an informed person.
00:36:59Vision can come
00:37:00from absolutely anywhere.
00:37:01A vision can come
00:37:02from friends.
00:37:03Vision can come
00:37:03from political leaders.
00:37:04It can come
00:37:05from business leaders.
00:37:06Vision can come
00:37:07from the principal
00:37:08of a school
00:37:09who's got
00:37:10a slightly different
00:37:11way of raising
00:37:12the kids.
00:37:14And some
00:37:15of those visionaries
00:37:16are stubbornly
00:37:18visionary,
00:37:19stubbornly optimistic
00:37:19without the words.
00:37:21That's a little
00:37:21frustrating sometimes
00:37:22because sometimes
00:37:23you have to spend
00:37:23a lot of time
00:37:24with them to get it.
00:37:24I'll tell you
00:37:25a great story
00:37:25of this if I can.
00:37:27So I had the opportunity
00:37:28to do some work
00:37:30with the Disney Imagineers.
00:37:31They're the people
00:37:32who invent
00:37:33all the rides,
00:37:34all the shows,
00:37:35all the parades.
00:37:36And we talk about
00:37:37imagination, right?
00:37:38They invent
00:37:39and build all of it.
00:37:40I went there
00:37:41back in the day
00:37:42and I was talking
00:37:43to them about
00:37:43the concept of why,
00:37:45what it is,
00:37:45how it works,
00:37:46and all of this stuff.
00:37:47And I thought,
00:37:48you know what?
00:37:48I'll do a demo.
00:37:50So I picked
00:37:51a random guy
00:37:52in the audience.
00:37:53He had gray hair.
00:37:54I picked a gray hair guy
00:37:56because I figured
00:37:57he's got some reps.
00:37:59Because I can't do it
00:38:00with somebody
00:38:00who's been here
00:38:01for three weeks.
00:38:02So I just,
00:38:02you know,
00:38:03played the odds
00:38:03and I said,
00:38:05okay,
00:38:05what about you?
00:38:06Right?
00:38:07And what I didn't know,
00:38:08and I found this out
00:38:09after the session,
00:38:10is that the company
00:38:12had a nickname for him
00:38:13that I'm not sure
00:38:14he knew
00:38:14that this was his nickname.
00:38:16They called him
00:38:16Ice Chips
00:38:17because he was
00:38:18a cold bastard.
00:38:20And people
00:38:21were not fond
00:38:22of working for him.
00:38:24He was difficult
00:38:25to work for.
00:38:26He had very high standards
00:38:27and he wasn't
00:38:28the favorite guy
00:38:29to work for.
00:38:30So I've randomly
00:38:31picked this guy.
00:38:32And I start doing
00:38:33this little workshop-y
00:38:35kind of thing
00:38:35where I'm asking
00:38:36him all these questions
00:38:36to get to what
00:38:37his why is
00:38:38and why all of this
00:38:39hard work is worth it.
00:38:41And he tells this story.
00:38:42He tells this one story.
00:38:43I'll do the compressed version.
00:38:44He told it over the course
00:38:44of like five or six minutes.
00:38:46It was an amazing story.
00:38:47He tells the story
00:38:48of a brand new ride
00:38:50that had just opened
00:38:51at Disneyland
00:38:51and he went on the first day
00:38:53to see the opening
00:38:54of the ride.
00:38:56On the ride,
00:38:56he noticed
00:38:57there was a guy
00:38:58in a wheelchair
00:39:00with his son
00:39:02waiting to get on the ride.
00:39:03And he said,
00:39:05everywhere in the world,
00:39:07what people see
00:39:08is a guy
00:39:09in a wheelchair
00:39:10with his son.
00:39:11Only at Disneyland
00:39:12do we only see
00:39:14a father
00:39:15and his son
00:39:16were all crying.
00:39:18And in an instant,
00:39:19we understood
00:39:19why his standards
00:39:20were so high.
00:39:22Because to him,
00:39:23he had to make
00:39:24these things
00:39:25work so perfectly
00:39:26that at no point
00:39:27did this guy feel
00:39:28like he was in a wheelchair.
00:39:30He just felt like
00:39:31he was at Disneyland
00:39:31with his son.
00:39:32Instantly,
00:39:33everybody got it
00:39:34and everybody
00:39:35wanted to work for him.
00:39:36And the people
00:39:37who did work for him
00:39:38had this instant
00:39:38sense of pride
00:39:39at the level
00:39:40that they were working at
00:39:41because the stakes
00:39:42were that high.
00:39:43But it was his inability
00:39:44to explain his vision
00:39:47to others
00:39:48that made him
00:39:49difficult to work for.
00:39:50The minute we had
00:39:50a story that captured
00:39:51the vision,
00:39:52because sometimes
00:39:52you don't need
00:39:53the whole vision,
00:39:53you just need a story
00:39:54that captures it,
00:39:56instantly,
00:39:57we all wanted
00:39:58to work for him.
00:39:58So optimism
00:39:59is the vision
00:40:00of the better future
00:40:01and how to get there.
00:40:03By the way,
00:40:03and that's a hack,
00:40:04which is when you
00:40:05are thinking
00:40:06about what your vision
00:40:07is or the world
00:40:08that you imagine
00:40:08or why you do
00:40:10what you do,
00:40:11you don't,
00:40:12no,
00:40:12you can go through,
00:40:13I've put many things
00:40:14out of the marketplace
00:40:14to help people find it,
00:40:16of course.
00:40:18But the hack
00:40:19is find a story
00:40:21that explains
00:40:24why all the sacrifice,
00:40:26all the heartache,
00:40:28all the two steps back
00:40:30are worth it.
00:40:32You could just go
00:40:33do something else.
00:40:34You could make more money,
00:40:36work fewer hours,
00:40:37you could do something else.
00:40:38What is so important
00:40:40in the world
00:40:41that all that suffering
00:40:43is worth it?
00:40:44So that you need a plan.
00:40:45I mean,
00:40:45this is one of the things
00:40:46you talk about
00:40:47to start with why,
00:40:47et cetera, et cetera.
00:40:48I mean,
00:40:48we're just kind of
00:40:50yakking at this point.
00:40:52Oh, a better future
00:40:52would be this,
00:40:53a better future
00:40:53would be that.
00:40:54No, how are you
00:40:54going to get there?
00:40:55That's a hippie commune.
00:40:56Like, you know,
00:40:57we're all talking around,
00:40:58you know,
00:40:58that's just,
00:40:59that's like free love
00:41:00with no,
00:41:00with no,
00:41:01with nothing.
00:41:02And that does,
00:41:03that also has a shelf life.
00:41:05It feels good
00:41:05in the short term,
00:41:06just like being finite minded
00:41:08and no vision only goals.
00:41:11Both of those work very well
00:41:12in the short term
00:41:13for different reasons.
00:41:15But at some point,
00:41:16the constant moving
00:41:17of the goalpost
00:41:17and the goal setting,
00:41:18goal setting,
00:41:19starts to feel hollow
00:41:20and not worth it.
00:41:21And the constant vision
00:41:23without action
00:41:23starts to feel like
00:41:24no progress
00:41:25and demoralize it.
00:41:27So that's why
00:41:28great teams
00:41:29are made up of people
00:41:30who are visionary
00:41:31and people who are really
00:41:32good at getting stuff done.
00:41:34Yeah, getting stuff done.
00:41:35And by the way,
00:41:36that's often the case,
00:41:37the division of labor
00:41:38with inside married couples.
00:41:40Yeah.
00:41:40Where you've got
00:41:41kind of the visionary
00:41:42for the better future
00:41:42and then you've got the work,
00:41:43you've got the CEO
00:41:44and the COO.
00:41:45Yeah.
00:41:46Two dreamers,
00:41:47sometimes you have trouble.
00:41:48One of the most wonderful people
00:41:49that I have in my life,
00:41:51you know,
00:41:51is somebody I used to date
00:41:52for many years
00:41:53and we're both dreamers
00:41:54and we both have
00:41:55our head in the clouds
00:41:56and we get along so well.
00:41:58It was hard in a relationship,
00:42:00but my God,
00:42:01the fun,
00:42:02the camaraderie,
00:42:03we just got along great.
00:42:06But the question is,
00:42:07was that the right,
00:42:08was that the right combo
00:42:09for a relationship
00:42:10that could last
00:42:10beyond the time that it did?
00:42:12Which I guess
00:42:13was a question
00:42:14that answered itself
00:42:14in due course.
00:42:15And a frustrating realization
00:42:17for both of us,
00:42:18both in and after
00:42:19the relationship.
00:42:20Because we still get
00:42:21a lot of rape.
00:42:21Yeah, that's great.
00:42:22I mean,
00:42:22as it can be a great friend,
00:42:23it's just not necessarily
00:42:24the permanent pair bond.
00:42:26And the reason is simple
00:42:27is because
00:42:27for the things
00:42:29that I'm incapable of,
00:42:30I need help.
00:42:31Yeah.
00:42:31And I know I'm a really
00:42:32good helper
00:42:32for the things
00:42:33that are somebody else's
00:42:34blind spots or shortcomings
00:42:35and that works.
00:42:38So this episode
00:42:39is actually part of
00:42:41the Be Hope podcast
00:42:42takeover
00:42:43that's happening
00:42:44at the same time
00:42:44as the UN General Assembly.
00:42:46I just had a realization
00:42:47and you said this
00:42:48is because this is
00:42:49going with the UN
00:42:50General Assembly
00:42:52and that their theme
00:42:53is hope.
00:42:54So I can't help
00:42:55but think about politics,
00:42:57right?
00:42:57Which is,
00:42:58okay, world leaders,
00:43:01why don't you
00:43:03articulate vision
00:43:04in a way
00:43:04and set up
00:43:05the way you lead
00:43:07your nations
00:43:08with such optimism
00:43:09and such
00:43:10a stubborn drive
00:43:12for the brighter future
00:43:13for everyone
00:43:14that it gives us
00:43:16reason to be hopeful.
00:43:18because I think
00:43:18we can be hopeful
00:43:19of our own nations
00:43:21and of our own world
00:43:23if we hear
00:43:24that our leaders
00:43:25have optimism
00:43:26and vision
00:43:26and we're willing
00:43:27to work together
00:43:28to achieve that vision.
00:43:29Then that gives me hope.
00:43:31That gives me more
00:43:32than optimism.
00:43:32That gives me hope.
00:43:34That's exactly
00:43:34what leaders are not doing.
00:43:36There's a great irony
00:43:37in all of this
00:43:37that after this whole
00:43:39conversation
00:43:39we've come
00:43:39a perfect circle
00:43:40that our definitions
00:43:42are holding true
00:43:43which is
00:43:44if the world leaders
00:43:46have agency
00:43:47and take it upon themselves
00:43:48and accountability
00:43:48and togetherness
00:43:49then they will become
00:43:51the external factor
00:43:52that gives us hope.
00:43:53But they themselves
00:43:54can't be hopeful.
00:43:56They have to lead
00:43:57in a way
00:43:58that makes us hopeful.
00:44:00And one important
00:44:01clarification
00:44:02I think
00:44:03which is that
00:44:03to state a reason
00:44:04to be hopeful
00:44:04does not include
00:44:06to tell people
00:44:08that if you elect me
00:44:10then the evil people
00:44:12will come and kill you.
00:44:14That's not an optimistic frame.
00:44:16It has to be positive
00:44:17fundamentally
00:44:18as opposed to the absence
00:44:19of the negative, right?
00:44:20I mean it's what
00:44:21we talked about before
00:44:22which is it's using fear
00:44:23to drive behavior.
00:44:24You know what I've learned
00:44:25is that great visionaries
00:44:26they view obstacles
00:44:28not as the enemy
00:44:29but they view obstacles
00:44:31as the thing
00:44:31to go over or around
00:44:33in order to achieve
00:44:33their vision.
00:44:34Because sometimes
00:44:34you both talk about enemies.
00:44:36You both talk about obstacles.
00:44:38You know Ronald Reagan
00:44:38talked about the Soviet Union,
00:44:40right?
00:44:40The difference was
00:44:41Ronald Reagan wasn't trying
00:44:42to just simply destroy
00:44:43the Soviet Union.
00:44:44It wasn't just some enemy
00:44:45that what he wanted
00:44:46to take down.
00:44:47It's that Ronald Reagan
00:44:48had a vision of the world
00:44:49of how it could exist
00:44:50and the Soviet Union
00:44:52was standing in the way.
00:44:54That was a barrier
00:44:55to the fact
00:44:55that there were a lot of people
00:44:56that were not free.
00:44:57And exactly.
00:44:58And once the Soviet Union
00:44:59dissolves
00:45:00the vision continues.
00:45:02The vision continues.
00:45:03The vision doesn't conclude
00:45:04when the enemy
00:45:05drops out of the game.
00:45:07So I think
00:45:08that's a huge difference
00:45:09I've seen
00:45:10because rallying
00:45:11the troops against
00:45:12is useful
00:45:13and much easier
00:45:14but it has to be
00:45:15rallying the troops
00:45:16for
00:45:17except this thing's
00:45:19in our way.
00:45:19So what is the policy version
00:45:21or the political version
00:45:22of step one
00:45:23in being a personal optimist
00:45:24which was stopping
00:45:25hypnotized
00:45:26by stupid nonsense?
00:45:27I mean we're talking
00:45:28in idealized terms
00:45:29because the reality is
00:45:31if being optimistic
00:45:33got them elected
00:45:34they'd be optimistic.
00:45:35if working together
00:45:36got them elected
00:45:37they'd work together.
00:45:39So let's be very clear
00:45:40that politicians
00:45:42are motivated
00:45:43by the incentive structure
00:45:45not by anything else.
00:45:47Oh yeah.
00:45:47No, no.
00:45:48So stipulate to the fact
00:45:49getting elected
00:45:50is not primatia evidence
00:45:51of virtue.
00:45:53No.
00:45:53No, no.
00:45:54And they'll do whatever
00:45:55they'll do and say
00:45:56whatever works.
00:45:58And we're living
00:45:59in a world now
00:45:59where we are not
00:46:01demanding our politicians
00:46:02work together
00:46:03and so they won't.
00:46:05I think change
00:46:06always starts at home.
00:46:07I think the more
00:46:08that we at home
00:46:09learn to listen
00:46:10learn to listen
00:46:11to whom those
00:46:13we disagree
00:46:13we learn to find
00:46:15common ground
00:46:15with whom those
00:46:16we disagree
00:46:16when we learn
00:46:17these things
00:46:18we will demand them
00:46:19of our leaders
00:46:20and of our politicians
00:46:21and then they will
00:46:22have no choice
00:46:22because that's what
00:46:23gets them elected.
00:46:24I think our politicians
00:46:25are a reflection of us.
00:46:27Yeah.
00:46:27Oh boy.
00:46:28Here we go.
00:46:28It's our fault.
00:46:30Well, actually
00:46:31maybe so.
00:46:32Kinda.
00:46:32A little bit.
00:46:33Kinda.
00:46:33Not completely.
00:46:34No, I know.
00:46:35But it's like
00:46:36you know
00:46:37it's never
00:46:38always someone's fault.
00:46:40Our parents taught us
00:46:41when it takes two to tango
00:46:43or the truth is in the middle
00:46:44or whatever
00:46:45metaphor you want to use
00:46:47right?
00:46:48Yeah, we are a bit to blame
00:46:49and until we can take accountability
00:46:51for the way we behave
00:46:52and the incentives
00:46:54and the demands we make
00:46:56then it's not going to change.
00:46:58So, and by the way
00:46:59it's much easier to change us
00:47:00than it is to change them.
00:47:01Yeah, certainly
00:47:02at the individual level.
00:47:03You grew up
00:47:04when Ed Koch
00:47:05was the mayor, right?
00:47:07Yeah.
00:47:08And do you remember
00:47:08when Ed Koch
00:47:09finally after
00:47:10more than a decade
00:47:12lost?
00:47:12Do you remember that?
00:47:13Yeah.
00:47:13When he finally lost?
00:47:14Yeah.
00:47:15And do you remember
00:47:15he was giving a concession speech
00:47:17and he memorably
00:47:18made your point
00:47:19and he said
00:47:19the people have spoken
00:47:21and now they're going
00:47:22to have to pay?
00:47:26Both, both true
00:47:27and bitter
00:47:28all at the same time.
00:47:30One aspect of your genius
00:47:31if you'll permit me
00:47:32Simon
00:47:33your ability
00:47:34to teach
00:47:35policy leaders
00:47:36how to tell stories.
00:47:37Yeah.
00:47:38I've seen you do it.
00:47:39You go from
00:47:40the specific
00:47:40to the general
00:47:41in a very inductive
00:47:42and very beautiful way
00:47:43and I've seen
00:47:44politicians
00:47:45with greater
00:47:46lesser degrees
00:47:47of success
00:47:47choose your stories
00:47:48as a matter of fact
00:47:49but that's step three
00:47:50that was step three
00:47:51for the individual
00:47:51is paint the picture.
00:47:53Paint the picture
00:47:53like and again
00:47:54it's a hack right?
00:47:56Tell me a story
00:47:57that captures
00:47:58why all of the sacrifice
00:48:00is worth it
00:48:00like Ice Chip's story
00:48:02like you know
00:48:03because that's how
00:48:04we got there
00:48:05remember that was
00:48:05a 20, 15 minute process
00:48:07of getting into that story
00:48:08where you know
00:48:10you could work somewhere else
00:48:12you could be happier
00:48:12you could work less
00:48:13tell me a story
00:48:14that captures
00:48:15why all this hardship
00:48:16is worth it.
00:48:17Let me tell the story
00:48:18of this ride we opened
00:48:19right?
00:48:20and he's telling me
00:48:22in his mind
00:48:22the stakes
00:48:23he's not able
00:48:25to see
00:48:26that that's
00:48:27what it is
00:48:29until this moment
00:48:29it might be
00:48:30an amorphous thing
00:48:31in his head
00:48:32but the fact
00:48:33that he spent
00:48:33a career
00:48:33not explaining
00:48:34this to people
00:48:35even though
00:48:36he's such a good
00:48:37and noble guy
00:48:38the only thing
00:48:38we could see
00:48:39was the high standards.
00:48:41What was holding him back
00:48:42is he didn't have
00:48:42a high morale team
00:48:43and we all know
00:48:44that you can be
00:48:45unbelievably successful
00:48:46and if you don't
00:48:47have a high morale team
00:48:48execution's gonna suffer
00:48:49because you're gonna be
00:48:50churning through people
00:48:50and burning them out
00:48:51and yeah
00:48:52which is a problem
00:48:53for sure
00:48:54and then of course
00:48:54last but not least
00:48:55policy is tangible
00:48:56how do we actually
00:48:57get there
00:48:58specifically
00:48:58not just pie in the sky
00:48:59elect me
00:49:01what's the best strategy
00:49:02and you recognize
00:49:03oh
00:49:03there are people
00:49:05better than me
00:49:05at some of this stuff
00:49:06you know
00:49:07I should get them
00:49:07on board
00:49:08which is why
00:49:08you want to be
00:49:09this is why
00:49:10you want to be
00:49:10visionary and inspiring
00:49:11because people
00:49:12will cut their
00:49:12perfectly good jobs
00:49:13to come and help you
00:49:14yeah
00:49:14but a visionary
00:49:15an inspiring
00:49:17visionary person
00:49:17who also is effective
00:49:19critically important
00:49:20I mean you see
00:49:21all these
00:49:21I know a lot of CEOs
00:49:23who promise the moon
00:49:24and the stars
00:49:24and people want to run
00:49:25through the wall for them
00:49:26and they realize
00:49:26there's nothing
00:49:27on the other side
00:49:28of the wall
00:49:28that we actually
00:49:29can't get there
00:49:30I mean
00:49:30and in politics
00:49:31of course
00:49:32the whole idea
00:49:33if you elect me
00:49:34then our country
00:49:35is going to be okay
00:49:36yeah
00:49:37I mean we're
00:49:37tangible animals
00:49:38right
00:49:38dopamine is
00:49:39we've demonized dopamine
00:49:41for the right reasons
00:49:42but dopamine
00:49:42is a very important
00:49:43chemical in our bodies
00:49:44it makes sure
00:49:44you know
00:49:45we go find food
00:49:46we find shelter
00:49:47we accomplish things
00:49:48we're very visually
00:49:49driven animals
00:49:50this is why
00:49:51writing down your goals
00:49:52and all of this stuff
00:49:53work
00:49:53because we're
00:49:54visually driven
00:49:55so vision is great
00:49:57but at some point
00:49:58I'm going to need
00:49:58proof
00:49:59to keep me motivated
00:50:00vision will inspire
00:50:01but the
00:50:02but the progress
00:50:03and the proof
00:50:03will motivate
00:50:04before we finish
00:50:05can I summarize
00:50:06what I think
00:50:07are the four
00:50:07big points
00:50:08of this conversation
00:50:08I want everybody
00:50:09to take away
00:50:11and see if you agree
00:50:12sure
00:50:12number one
00:50:14people need to
00:50:16ask themselves
00:50:17not what I am
00:50:19but who I am
00:50:20which by the way
00:50:21is an enormous
00:50:22departure for most people
00:50:23who am I
00:50:24it's actually
00:50:24a frightening question
00:50:26for a lot of people
00:50:26or an unasked question
00:50:28but the who
00:50:29question
00:50:29is at the heart
00:50:31of your own why
00:50:31not the what
00:50:32I can go with sure
00:50:33but if you want
00:50:34the
00:50:35what the who
00:50:36really is
00:50:37because
00:50:37it's one of the biggest
00:50:38criticisms I'm ever
00:50:39I always get
00:50:40is like Simon
00:50:40in your golden circle
00:50:41of why how what
00:50:42you forgot the who
00:50:43no I did not
00:50:44who we are
00:50:46is the sum total
00:50:47of all three
00:50:47of those things
00:50:48in balance
00:50:48that I know
00:50:49why I do what I do
00:50:50I'm disciplined
00:50:51in how I do it
00:50:52and what I do
00:50:53the results
00:50:53that I produce
00:50:54the progress
00:50:54that I make
00:50:55is tangible proof
00:50:56of why I started
00:50:57in the first place
00:50:58and when you have
00:50:59all those three
00:50:59things in balance
00:51:00you will know
00:51:01who I am
00:51:02and so will I
00:51:02that's what I meant
00:51:03that's
00:51:04well then yes
00:51:05then then a resounding
00:51:06yes
00:51:07that was brilliant
00:51:08of me don't you think
00:51:09that number two
00:51:10is whether you call
00:51:12it optimism
00:51:13or hope
00:51:14what we're talking
00:51:14about is number
00:51:15one
00:51:16the assertion
00:51:18that there is
00:51:19a better future
00:51:19the second
00:51:21that it is achievable
00:51:22that we all
00:51:23must participate
00:51:24in that achievable
00:51:25better future
00:51:26that's really
00:51:27what we're talking
00:51:27about here right
00:51:28check
00:51:29three
00:51:29this is a show
00:51:30about happiness
00:51:31you will be a happier
00:51:32person if you're an optimist
00:51:33take our word for it
00:51:35just yeah trust me
00:51:36on that one
00:51:37trust me on this one
00:51:38but to be an optimist
00:51:41personally really
00:51:41there's four things
00:51:42there's a four-step
00:51:43algorithm here
00:51:44so this is the
00:51:45optimization of optimism
00:51:46as it were
00:51:47we're in an
00:51:48optimization culture
00:51:49one is
00:51:50is stopping
00:51:51being hypnotized
00:51:52by the nonsense
00:51:53that's around us
00:51:53the world wants
00:51:54to keep you hypnotized
00:51:55the world doesn't
00:51:56want you to be awake
00:51:57you know
00:51:58the awareness
00:51:59that actually comes
00:52:00from being fully alive
00:52:01is a problem
00:52:01for a lot of the world
00:52:03because you know
00:52:03we are putty
00:52:05in the hands of
00:52:05a lot of forces
00:52:07out there
00:52:07if we're not
00:52:08and that might mean
00:52:09putting down your phone
00:52:10and it might be
00:52:10stop listening
00:52:11to negative voices
00:52:12and if there's something
00:52:13that's probably
00:52:13hypnotizing you
00:52:14identify it
00:52:16turn it off
00:52:18so that you can
00:52:18be fully awake
00:52:19can I tweak it?
00:52:20of course
00:52:21let's tell people
00:52:22what we want them to do
00:52:23not what we not
00:52:24don't want them to do
00:52:25so instead of people
00:52:26telling people
00:52:26to stop listening
00:52:27to noise
00:52:28or stop listening
00:52:29to the hypnotism
00:52:30and stop listening
00:52:30to the negative
00:52:31let's tell people
00:52:32to seek out
00:52:33and listen more
00:52:34to positive voices
00:52:36to things that inspire us
00:52:37to things that make us
00:52:38feel hopeful
00:52:39and to do that
00:52:40you have to have to be
00:52:41unencumbered
00:52:42by the stuff
00:52:42that was actually
00:52:43if you're going to do that
00:52:44you're necessarily
00:52:44going to put the other stuff away
00:52:46second is
00:52:47build or buy
00:52:48find or create
00:52:50a vision of a better future
00:52:52your better future
00:52:53and other people's
00:52:54better future
00:52:55in terms so clear
00:52:56other people can see it too
00:52:57yes amen
00:52:58and how do we make it so clear
00:52:59step three
00:53:00you need a story
00:53:02not the data
00:53:03not the math
00:53:04not the model
00:53:06you need the story
00:53:07and by the way
00:53:08there's all kinds of stuff
00:53:08we've talked about
00:53:09on the show
00:53:09again and again
00:53:10about how
00:53:10the imprinting
00:53:11that actually
00:53:12comes from a story
00:53:12because we are
00:53:13story-based animals
00:53:15the story
00:53:16that explains
00:53:17the why
00:53:17of this vision
00:53:18that explains it
00:53:19so that you understand it
00:53:21and that other people
00:53:21understand it
00:53:22and part four
00:53:23which is kind of like
00:53:25the fourth noble truth
00:53:26of buddhism
00:53:27is the eightfold path
00:53:28no it's the plan
00:53:29to actually get there
00:53:30life is a pilgrimage
00:53:31and and recognize
00:53:33that the plan
00:53:34is written in pencil
00:53:35exactly
00:53:35which by the way
00:53:36that is a
00:53:38that's not a side note
00:53:39that's intention
00:53:40without attachment
00:53:41which is a very
00:53:43fundamental buddhist
00:53:43concept right there
00:53:44that we've covered
00:53:45probably ad nauseum
00:53:46at this point
00:53:47okay now let's finish up
00:53:49on what all of
00:53:50all the people
00:53:50because I'm sure
00:53:51that the entire
00:53:52UN general assembly
00:53:53is listening to this podcast
00:53:54no no this is the
00:53:55this is the second time
00:53:55they're listening to it
00:53:56yeah exactly right
00:53:58to be a more hopeful
00:54:00policy leader
00:54:01in a time of
00:54:02difficulty in the world
00:54:04which suffice it to say
00:54:05is true
00:54:06and by the way
00:54:06that's always true
00:54:07stop hypnotizing people
00:54:09that's number one
00:54:10right
00:54:11be a force of inspiration
00:54:13yeah
00:54:14and and that force
00:54:15of inspiration
00:54:15is step two
00:54:16state a reason
00:54:17to be hopeful
00:54:17and that's a positive vision
00:54:19look either you believe it
00:54:20or you don't
00:54:22either you believe it
00:54:22or you don't
00:54:23and if you don't believe
00:54:24that there's a better future
00:54:25get out
00:54:26yep
00:54:27I I used to
00:54:28I used to say this
00:54:29to companies
00:54:29I like I'd stand
00:54:30in front of companies
00:54:31and you know
00:54:32there'd be a
00:54:33newly declared vision
00:54:34and I would say look
00:54:35we're not asking
00:54:37for everybody
00:54:38to like sacrifice
00:54:39and believe desperately
00:54:40in this vision
00:54:41right
00:54:41that is unrealistic
00:54:42given the company
00:54:43of this size
00:54:44right
00:54:44unrealistic
00:54:45but what we are saying
00:54:47is that if you just
00:54:48want to come to work
00:54:49clock your card
00:54:50do a good job
00:54:52and go home
00:54:53at the end of the day
00:54:53and that's all you
00:54:54really care about
00:54:55is like just let me
00:54:56do my job
00:54:56and I'll do a good job
00:54:57we're actually
00:54:58totally fine with that
00:54:59what you're not
00:55:00allowed to do
00:55:00is sabotage
00:55:01if you don't
00:55:01believe in the vision
00:55:02you just want to
00:55:02like make it
00:55:03you just want to
00:55:04like live my life
00:55:05leave me alone
00:55:06I'm good with that
00:55:07not everybody
00:55:08has to buy in
00:55:09or believe
00:55:09what you're not
00:55:10allowed to do
00:55:10is sabotage
00:55:11right
00:55:11so two
00:55:12is state
00:55:14a reason
00:55:14for a hopeful
00:55:15future
00:55:16a positive vision
00:55:18not a negative one
00:55:19three
00:55:19okay
00:55:21now go tell
00:55:22a good story
00:55:23of that better future
00:55:23that's
00:55:24that's 100% true
00:55:25and number four
00:55:27is set out
00:55:29tangible policies
00:55:30write the map
00:55:31that actually
00:55:31will actually
00:55:32get us there
00:55:32that people
00:55:33are going to believe
00:55:34so that they know
00:55:35what they're signing up for
00:55:36and that you know
00:55:37what you're signing up for
00:55:38as well
00:55:38nothing good ever
00:55:39got accomplished
00:55:41without actually
00:55:41doing things
00:55:42Simon this has been
00:55:43helpful
00:55:44as always
00:55:45I've learned a lot
00:55:46and I hope our listeners
00:55:47have as well
00:55:48and I know the
00:55:48UN General Assembly
00:55:49is going to be
00:55:50rocking and rolling
00:55:51because of
00:55:52talking to you today
00:55:53maybe they'll invite us
00:55:55to speak to them together
00:55:55and we can have a reunion
00:55:56wouldn't that be great
00:55:57that'd be so fun
00:55:58this was great
00:55:59I love talking to you
00:56:00I always leave
00:56:01smarter
00:56:02you help me see things
00:56:03I didn't see before
00:56:04and just
00:56:05just generally
00:56:06I think you're
00:56:06I think you're pretty awesome
00:56:08I admire you a lot
00:56:09I love talking to you
00:56:17I love talking to you
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