Transcript
00:00:00I'm starting in OnlyFans and I'm selling merch.
00:00:02This has taken way too long and I'm very sorry,
00:00:05but it is so worth it.
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00:00:08so they're even better quality than last time.
00:00:10And this bursting heart design
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00:00:16Also, your girlfriend's new favorite hoodie.
00:00:18I apologize to anybody who buys this
00:00:20because I get the sense
00:00:21that your girlfriend's just gonna steal it.
00:00:22All of it is available right now at mwmerch.com
00:00:25and it's only available for six days.
00:00:27So get it once it's gone.
00:00:28You won't be able to buy it again.
00:00:29That's it.
00:00:30Completely sold out.
00:00:31Never to be printed in the future.
00:00:32mwmerch.com
00:00:33Have you seen the type of dancing
00:00:36which is scientifically most attractive to women?
00:00:39I've not seen this.
00:00:40According to a study at Northumbria University,
00:00:42the dancers found this one.
00:00:44This is the dance that women found most attractive.
00:00:47This is a man dance song.
00:00:59According to a study by Northumbria University,
00:01:02the dancers women found most attractive
00:01:03were ones who moved their head, neck and torso the most
00:01:07while also mixing up their moves creatively
00:01:08and showing more variation in rhythm.
00:01:11To test this, researchers used motion capture technology
00:01:13on 30 male dancers,
00:01:14turned their movements into computer avatars.
00:01:16The best dancers were the ones
00:01:18who used their whole body naturally
00:01:19instead of awkwardly repeating
00:01:20the same arm and leg movements.
00:01:22Looked like they're dancing to me.
00:01:25Well, Asian people have got natural rhythm, Rob,
00:01:27so I imagine that's how you dance.
00:01:28What I was noticing is
00:01:30he was keeping his elbows close to the body,
00:01:32so it looks like he might be-
00:01:32Protecting the femoral artery.
00:01:33He might be a trained boxer.
00:01:36Which could be you as well.
00:01:38I know the guy who did this study,
00:01:42funnily enough.
00:01:43I was just at HBES with him.
00:01:45He's my friend, Ismail.
00:01:46And one thing that he was actually talking about
00:01:48was that the dance is quite feminine,
00:01:50and this mirrors something that you sometimes see
00:01:53in facial attractiveness research,
00:01:55where the initial assumption is like,
00:01:57oh, masculinity is just going to be amazing,
00:01:59as much masculinity as possible.
00:02:01But then in some areas with some traits,
00:02:04femininity is favored,
00:02:06and I think it seems like dancing is in-
00:02:08In dancing, femininity would be favored.
00:02:10Well, what would a masculine dance look like?
00:02:11That's the question.
00:02:12Kind of like throwing yourself around in a mosh pit?
00:02:14Is that particularly sexy?
00:02:16Shadow boxing.
00:02:17Shadow boxing.
00:02:17Shadow boxing.
00:02:18Shadow boxing.
00:02:19Shadow boxing.
00:02:20Yeah.
00:02:20There's two things that British guys do
00:02:23that I think must give women the ick
00:02:26more than anything else.
00:02:27One is shadow boxing on the way to a night out,
00:02:31and the other one is football chants
00:02:33in the queue of a nightclub.
00:02:35Doing football chants as you walk down the street
00:02:36I think is just the most vaginally repulsive thing
00:02:40that you can do,
00:02:41but second only to shadow boxing.
00:02:43Why shadow boxing?
00:02:44What is it about shadow boxing that would give them the-
00:02:46Well, it's this-
00:02:47I share that intuition, but what is it about?
00:02:49What I think is it's guys posturing how hard they are.
00:02:54Look at how formidable and aggressive I would be
00:02:57if only it wasn't air that I was fighting.
00:03:00There's no opponents.
00:03:01Yeah.
00:03:01I think that it ruins the positive illusion
00:03:03that they actually could win a fight.
00:03:05It's like, oh-
00:03:05It's their shadow boxing.
00:03:06They're even losing their shadow boxing fire.
00:03:07Yeah, exactly.
00:03:08They're like this.
00:03:09Yeah.
00:03:09How many punches do you have to throw at this invisible person?
00:03:14Does look-smaxing give women the ick, Rob?
00:03:17I think it does.
00:03:18I'd be curious to hear Macken's thoughts, Steve's as well,
00:03:21on this, which is the clavicular, the look-smaxing influencer.
00:03:25He became very popular through propagating this idea
00:03:30of look-smaxing, bone-smashing, optimizing.
00:03:33He told the New York Times that he is now sterile
00:03:36because he's injected himself with so many chemicals.
00:03:39Presumably, he thinks it's worth it, though.
00:03:41I recently wrote a piece suggesting that this gives women the ick,
00:03:44and that people mistakenly think that clavicular is attracting women
00:03:49because he revamped his physical appearance.
00:03:52I actually think that most of that attention he's receiving from women
00:03:55is due to the fame.
00:03:56He got famous through promoting looks-maxing,
00:03:59and people mistakenly think it's the looks and not the fame
00:04:02that draw the women to him.
00:04:05For an ordinary man, like a clavicular fan,
00:04:07who's doing all of the same looks-maxing protocol,
00:04:09the bone-smashing, the injections-
00:04:10But without any of the fame.
00:04:14Just quietly bone-smashing?
00:04:16He recently, I think, got a nose job.
00:04:18I saw something going around the necks.
00:04:19And an ordinary guy doing all of that stuff, optimizing for appearance,
00:04:24I think most women would find that kind of guy very vain, very self-centered,
00:04:30someone who is maybe uninterested in a relationship
00:04:33and is more just interested in themselves.
00:04:36And so maybe it works for a clavicular because it made him famous,
00:04:39but for the average guy,
00:04:40I think that amount of looks-maxing would be counterproductive.
00:04:44What do you think it signals?
00:04:46I mean, I would say that it signals narcissism, vanity,
00:04:50maybe sort of short-term-oriented mating orientation,
00:04:53kind of more interested in being immediately attractive to someone
00:04:58rather than someone who you would be interested in forming a long-term bond with.
00:05:02Yeah, and some of it's just a bit weird as well, right?
00:05:03The bone-smashing, that kind of thing is just odd.
00:05:06Yeah.
00:05:06Well, I saw this clip recently.
00:05:08He was in this interaction with this girl at this bar in New York,
00:05:13and he was telling her how reading is a total waste of time.
00:05:16I mean, I don't read.
00:05:17That's ridiculous.
00:05:18That's absurd.
00:05:18And I couldn't help but comment at how shocking is it
00:05:21that the guy who hits himself in the head with a hammer isn't a fan of you.
00:05:26Sometimes people surprise you.
00:05:27Yeah, indeed.
00:05:29That's funny.
00:05:29It actually, it's funny that you say that
00:05:31because on the main forum, looksmax.org,
00:05:36it actually, if I'm not mistaken,
00:05:37it used to say,
00:05:39first rule of looks-maxing, don't talk about looks-maxing,
00:05:41which reflects an open understanding,
00:05:45like, never say that you're doing any of this stuff.
00:05:47Like, looking good helps,
00:05:49but being transparent about the things that you're doing to look good
00:05:53probably won't improve your life.
00:05:55Is there a reason for that, though?
00:05:56So I'm looks-maxing, but I don't tell you about it.
00:05:59Is that because, what,
00:06:01like, to bypass all of the prejudices involved there?
00:06:05Like, I don't want you to think I'm vain.
00:06:06I just want you to think that I'm naturally good-looking.
00:06:08Is that the idea?
00:06:08That natural beauty is better than artificial beauty.
00:06:11Yeah, so I believe that that was part of it.
00:06:14And then a second facet was actually that they didn't want,
00:06:17I mean, a lot of the methods that they use,
00:06:20such as bone smashing, I already mentioned,
00:06:22are probably very dubious.
00:06:25But I think that part of it is that they wanted to protect it
00:06:28with the, honestly, a view that a lot of us might agree with,
00:06:32which is that the mating market is competitive,
00:06:34and so if everyone gets better looking,
00:06:36it may be the equivalent of everyone's,
00:06:38like, kind of running faster, but staying the same.
00:06:40But they were worried that other guys would learn the exploit.
00:06:42Yeah, basically, yeah.
00:06:43It's like, if other guys figure out
00:06:45that wearing makeup makes you more attractive,
00:06:46then everyone's going to be wearing makeup,
00:06:48but then there's just a hassle.
00:06:50Yeah, exactly.
00:06:51And you've seen that already happen to women.
00:06:53I mean, women, this is something that I said on your podcast
00:06:55three or four years ago,
00:06:57that women have been looks-maxing
00:06:59for decades and decades and decades.
00:07:00This is before it came in as a real trend.
00:07:04And that's kind of what's happened, right,
00:07:06is that all women are wearing makeup,
00:07:08and now, or almost all of them are,
00:07:10and now if you skip that part of your routine,
00:07:12it almost comes across,
00:07:13and it shouldn't, it's unfortunate,
00:07:14but it almost comes across as unprofessional
00:07:16in a workspace.
00:07:17I mean, it's just this extra burden of beautification.
00:07:20Minimum bar has been raised for what presentable is.
00:07:22Yeah, exactly.
00:07:23So if all men start doing the same thing,
00:07:25then yeah, I would say that the minimum bar probably will.
00:07:27I think that intuition,
00:07:28even if some of the methods that they're coveting
00:07:31and protecting are ineffective,
00:07:32I think that the intuition about competitiveness
00:07:34and how it works is probably correct.
00:07:36So we should do it,
00:07:37just shouldn't talk about it.
00:07:38Yeah, exactly.
00:07:40The thing that I wondered
00:07:42is whether or not it's to protect
00:07:44the costliness or the reliability of the signal,
00:07:49that if you find out that the only reason
00:07:51that this guy is good-looking
00:07:52is not because of what you might intuit
00:07:55is the ultimate reason of got good genes,
00:07:58strong immune system,
00:07:59sort of a natural sense and way of him,
00:08:02but it's too contrived,
00:08:04you actually think,
00:08:04well, what am I dating?
00:08:06I think this is the same thing.
00:08:07There is a kind of ick that women had
00:08:09if they learned a guy was doing real social dynamics
00:08:12or reading the game by Neil Strauss
00:08:14and doing pickup artistry.
00:08:16Even if you'd said,
00:08:17I went away to a sex training,
00:08:22an intimacy training,
00:08:23sex training course weekend thing
00:08:25that was all professional
00:08:26and not creepy,
00:08:28but that means that when you go
00:08:30and do something in bed,
00:08:31it's not because of your sort of natural proclivities,
00:08:35it's because you've crafted and curated it.
00:08:37We're happy for people to learn
00:08:38to become better at playing the piano.
00:08:40We're less happy at people learning
00:08:43to become better at being themselves in a way.
00:08:46Does that make sense?
00:08:47Yeah, well, with beauty,
00:08:48no, you're not.
00:08:49And with beauty,
00:08:49there's actually some evidence
00:08:50for this in women already.
00:08:52I'm not aware of any study
00:08:53that's been done on this in men,
00:08:54but Zia and colleagues in China,
00:08:57they actually tested,
00:08:59so it was makeup and plastic surgery
00:09:00that they tested on real women's faces
00:09:02and they had men assess their attractiveness,
00:09:05their datability, et cetera.
00:09:06And what they found was that
00:09:07these methods worked
00:09:09to make them more attractive,
00:09:10but when men were informed,
00:09:12meaning once men knew like,
00:09:13oh, this woman looks better,
00:09:14but she's had plastic surgery,
00:09:16they had a reduced datability effect.
00:09:18So it was an increase that was attenuated.
00:09:21So the attractiveness boost was still present,
00:09:23like they were still considered more dateable.
00:09:25But that effect was attenuated
00:09:26when you were aware of the effort
00:09:28that had gone in.
00:09:29What was the net?
00:09:30The net was still that there was a benefit.
00:09:32And you could see in these faces
00:09:33that the attractiveness difference,
00:09:35I can send you the study,
00:09:35the attractiveness differences
00:09:36in their example were large.
00:09:39But it was an attenuated effect
00:09:41where it's like,
00:09:42oh, if they know,
00:09:43if they detect it,
00:09:44then they're less interested.
00:09:45And it may be because
00:09:46of what attractiveness evolved for,
00:09:48where it's like,
00:09:49it's meant to be this health signal,
00:09:51youth signal, et cetera.
00:09:52But if we have this cognitive knowledge
00:09:54of like, oh,
00:09:55this isn't a real youth signal, right?
00:09:56This is a woman with facelift,
00:09:57that may change the valence slightly.
00:10:00But I'd be interested in Steve's thoughts.
00:10:01Yeah, so I mean,
00:10:02I completely buy that
00:10:03that effect is real,
00:10:05but I'm not sure
00:10:06if that's an evolved tendency to,
00:10:09because the evolved tendency
00:10:10is just a gut level reaction
00:10:12to cues of health and fertility,
00:10:14I would argue,
00:10:15rather than a tendency to think
00:10:17that that person's healthy
00:10:18and has good qualities
00:10:20that I would want to mix
00:10:21my genes with
00:10:22to create offspring.
00:10:23And so finding out
00:10:24that it is not a real signal,
00:10:27I'm not sure if that would,
00:10:28like I say,
00:10:29I think that does have the effect
00:10:31of reducing attractiveness judgments,
00:10:33but I'm not sure
00:10:34if that we've evolved
00:10:34for that to be the case.
00:10:38Do you think we might have
00:10:38like a general kind of
00:10:39cheater detection thing
00:10:40where it's like,
00:10:41oh, this person is deceiving me
00:10:43in some way,
00:10:44and so it's not like,
00:10:45I mean,
00:10:45cheater detection refers
00:10:46to a specific phenomenon
00:10:47that's different, of course,
00:10:48but in terms of,
00:10:50just general,
00:10:51like what do you think,
00:10:52what do you think
00:10:53would drive the effect
00:10:54of false beauty
00:10:55being a slightly less preferred
00:10:58compared to natural beauty?
00:11:00I think it could be that.
00:11:01I think it probably
00:11:03is something more general
00:11:04like that,
00:11:05just a general tendency
00:11:05to be wary of deception,
00:11:09I guess, yeah.
00:11:10I'm intrigued by this finding
00:11:11that it was attenuated,
00:11:13but still overall
00:11:13a net benefit,
00:11:15and I think this suggests,
00:11:17at least to me,
00:11:18and I'm curious
00:11:18what Steve thinks about this,
00:11:19is that we evolved
00:11:21to respond more so
00:11:22to signals
00:11:23than to the underlying property.
00:11:25So I'm imagining
00:11:26a sort of a variation
00:11:27of the study you described
00:11:28where you see someone
00:11:29who's very plain looking
00:11:30and for whatever reason,
00:11:32you know,
00:11:32it's a contrived scenario,
00:11:33but they used to be very hot
00:11:34and then they got some surgery
00:11:35and now they're unattractive,
00:11:37and you have a choice
00:11:37between sleeping with this
00:11:38artificially unattractive person
00:11:40who's naturally hot
00:11:41or a person who is
00:11:42artificially hot,
00:11:43but naturally is unattractive.
00:11:45Who do you choose?
00:11:46I think most people,
00:11:46especially most men,
00:11:47I think would choose
00:11:48the artificially hot one
00:11:49because we respond more so
00:11:50to these signals
00:11:51than the underlying
00:11:52sort of trait
00:11:52that it's meant to communicate.
00:11:53At a gut level.
00:11:55I think it's so as well, actually.
00:11:56And actually,
00:11:57I'm thinking maybe
00:11:57it's not deception exactly
00:11:59that reduces the attractiveness,
00:12:01but maybe the inferences
00:12:02that we make
00:12:03about the personality
00:12:04of the person.
00:12:05There's some insecurity.
00:12:07Exactly.
00:12:07Yeah, I mean,
00:12:08I'm speaking from memory
00:12:09about the study,
00:12:10but I actually think
00:12:11that's precisely right.
00:12:12I'll check it after
00:12:13and send it to you
00:12:14over WhatsApp,
00:12:15but if I'm not mistaken,
00:12:17it actually was
00:12:18that there was
00:12:18a negative personality inference
00:12:20and that that was
00:12:22part of the story.
00:12:23So it was like,
00:12:23yeah, they're more attractive,
00:12:24but now I'm not as impressed
00:12:26by their personality
00:12:27under this condition.
00:12:28And they might be
00:12:28just as impressed
00:12:29by the looks,
00:12:29but we don't judge people
00:12:30just on looks.
00:12:31And so the looks elevate it,
00:12:33the personality takes it down.
00:12:35Which is where
00:12:36attractiveness was up,
00:12:37but datability had...
00:12:38Yeah, it was either datability
00:12:40or it may have been
00:12:41overall personality perception,
00:12:42but it was some variable
00:12:43in that mix for sure.
00:12:44It's probably worth saying
00:12:46that a lot of this stuff
00:12:47is going to be
00:12:48either subconscious
00:12:49or sort of like
00:12:50peri-subconscious.
00:12:51It's the sort of thing
00:12:52that you intuit.
00:12:53You don't really know why.
00:12:53It gave me the ick.
00:12:54What the ick is
00:12:56is a kind of nebulous,
00:12:59ephemeral,
00:12:59really hard to grasp onto.
00:13:01I'm not so sure
00:13:02about that thing,
00:13:04but that might actually
00:13:07be pretty evil.
00:13:08You know what would be great?
00:13:08An evolutionary theory of icks
00:13:11would be wonderful.
00:13:12I've got a PhD student
00:13:13who's working on it right now.
00:13:14No fucking way.
00:13:16Dude, don't fuck with me
00:13:17on evolutionary psychology, dude.
00:13:19I'm on the fucking frontier.
00:13:22There was a guy,
00:13:22I don't know if it was
00:13:23the same one,
00:13:24but he was presenting
00:13:25a poster at HBES
00:13:26on the evolutionary
00:13:27psychology of the ick.
00:13:28So it's something
00:13:28that people are interested in.
00:13:30It's up and coming, yeah.
00:13:30There's been a couple
00:13:31of publications
00:13:32on it already.
00:13:33So it's my student,
00:13:34Louisa Lee.
00:13:34There were no publications
00:13:35when she started.
00:13:36And then one has come out
00:13:38that she got scooped.
00:13:39We got scooped, basically.
00:13:40But yeah,
00:13:41she's doing some good work.
00:13:42Well, what is
00:13:43the evolutionary psychology of the ick?
00:13:45She's trying to explain it
00:13:46in terms of a mate choice.
00:13:48She's predicting that
00:13:49because women on average
00:13:50are choosier,
00:13:51women are more prone to the ick,
00:13:52which is,
00:13:53I don't think anyone would
00:13:54disagree with that intuition.
00:13:55And we've now got good evidence
00:13:56that that's the case.
00:13:58Yeah.
00:14:00And she's looking at it
00:14:00in terms of evolved disgust reactions.
00:14:04That's interesting.
00:14:05Yeah, it is an interesting one.
00:14:05And so looking at it
00:14:06in terms of-
00:14:08Behavioral immune system.
00:14:10Yeah, behavioral immune system
00:14:11and evolved disgust reactions
00:14:14in response to sexual stimuli,
00:14:18to sort of stuff that's gross,
00:14:20associated with disease and the like,
00:14:22and moral disgust as well.
00:14:24I was going to say,
00:14:25is there maybe something
00:14:26in that women are more adept
00:14:29at reading social cues,
00:14:31which means that
00:14:32if a guy does something
00:14:32which is socially ungainly,
00:14:34he might be able
00:14:34to breeze through it
00:14:35or his friends might be able
00:14:36to breeze through it.
00:14:37Or if a woman was to do it
00:14:38that's the partner of a guy,
00:14:39he might not notice it.
00:14:41Whereas if she's able
00:14:41to pay more attention,
00:14:42more closely to how people
00:14:43are responding,
00:14:44understanding that
00:14:46sort of social hierarchy
00:14:48a bit more.
00:14:48So it's fascinating.
00:14:49And yeah,
00:14:50there's lots of things
00:14:51that you could do,
00:14:51being unhygienic,
00:14:53being unhealthy,
00:14:54being rude.
00:14:55But the funny things
00:14:56are a guy trying to pick up
00:14:58a moving ping pong ball.
00:15:00Why is that an ick?
00:15:02Or why is a guy
00:15:02who misses a turn
00:15:04in a car
00:15:06doesn't drive dexterously?
00:15:09Why is that a particular ick?
00:15:10Stuff that's a bit more lifestyle-y
00:15:12and certainly more modern novel.
00:15:14I mean,
00:15:14Diana Fleischman said this before.
00:15:16She's very,
00:15:16very attuned
00:15:19to her husband Jeffrey's
00:15:21sort of social status
00:15:22and his level of competence.
00:15:23And if he misses a turn
00:15:25when driving,
00:15:26she literally feels
00:15:28her attraction to him
00:15:28go down for a little while
00:15:30and then it comes back up.
00:15:31If he says a joke
00:15:33that doesn't land
00:15:33at a dinner table,
00:15:34she's like actively unattracted
00:15:36to him for a little while
00:15:37and then comes,
00:15:37she's like,
00:15:38I have some psychopathic tendencies.
00:15:39I'm aware of that.
00:15:40And then blew through,
00:15:42just kept on going.
00:15:43I can't see that going
00:15:44in the other direction
00:15:45as much.
00:15:46I can't see.
00:15:46Oh, my missus missed a turn
00:15:47in the car.
00:15:48I'm sorry, darling.
00:15:49I can't have sex
00:15:49with you this evening.
00:15:50I could not.
00:15:51I could never.
00:15:51The way that you would
00:15:52press the indicator,
00:15:53I could never.
00:15:53I mean,
00:15:54we place more value
00:15:54on looks.
00:15:55So would it be something
00:15:56like, you know,
00:15:57seeing, you know,
00:15:58if your spouse,
00:16:00you know,
00:16:01gains some weight
00:16:01or maybe first thing
00:16:02in the morning
00:16:03looks a little disheveled
00:16:04or something along
00:16:05those lines that
00:16:06maybe is the same
00:16:07male response?
00:16:08Men are so much
00:16:09less choosier.
00:16:10Yeah.
00:16:10Even in long-term
00:16:11relationships.
00:16:12Yeah.
00:16:13I think that that
00:16:13gets offset.
00:16:14I think that's exactly right.
00:16:16Yeah, I think that
00:16:16it's a reflection,
00:16:19this sex difference
00:16:20in the ick,
00:16:21which Steve says
00:16:22is now, you know,
00:16:22backed by good data
00:16:23and is also something
00:16:24that everyone knows
00:16:25anecdotally.
00:16:26I think it reflects
00:16:26different risk levels
00:16:27between men and women
00:16:28where for men,
00:16:30the biggest risk is,
00:16:32and this is something
00:16:32that a lot of evolutionary
00:16:33psychologists talk about,
00:16:34biggest risk is that
00:16:35you miss a mating opportunity,
00:16:36whereas for women,
00:16:38the biggest risk
00:16:38is that you mate
00:16:39with the wrong person.
00:16:39And so it's more important
00:16:40to have, like,
00:16:41this visceral response
00:16:43where it's like,
00:16:43oh, you know,
00:16:44that last thing
00:16:46just pushed me
00:16:46over the threshold
00:16:47and you're now
00:16:48selected out.
00:16:49Like, I do not want to-
00:16:50More discerning.
00:16:51Yeah, exactly.
00:16:52What's the,
00:16:52speaking of the
00:16:53sort of current world
00:16:55of lux-maxing
00:16:57guys trying to rise
00:16:58to the top of the level
00:16:59as much as they can,
00:17:00what's the myth
00:17:00of the Chad?
00:17:02Well, so I wrote this piece,
00:17:03The Myth of the Chad,
00:17:04and I think I dropped it
00:17:05in the group chat,
00:17:07which is,
00:17:08you know,
00:17:08for a long time
00:17:09we've heard this story.
00:17:10I think you and I
00:17:11talked about this
00:17:11on a previous podcast,
00:17:12Chris,
00:17:13because it made
00:17:14some level
00:17:14of intuitive sense
00:17:15that as the dating
00:17:18marketplace has become
00:17:19more deregulated,
00:17:20people can meet each other.
00:17:22The idea of a deregulated
00:17:24mating marketplace.
00:17:24We live in sexual capital,
00:17:25late sexual capitalism.
00:17:27Yeah.
00:17:28And so now you have,
00:17:30you know,
00:17:30with dating apps,
00:17:31online dating,
00:17:32people can meet
00:17:32each other more easily.
00:17:34We are, you know,
00:17:35supposedly placing
00:17:36more value on looks
00:17:37as a result of social media
00:17:39and dating apps
00:17:39and so on.
00:17:40So the story was,
00:17:42and we saw some
00:17:42statistical trends
00:17:44that supported this notion,
00:17:45at least initially,
00:17:47that a small percentage
00:17:49of men were getting
00:17:50the majority
00:17:51of female attention
00:17:52and that men
00:17:54sort of on the lower end
00:17:56of mate value
00:17:57were getting
00:17:57increasingly less
00:17:59female interest.
00:18:00And so the story was,
00:18:01what was it,
00:18:01like 20% of men
00:18:02are getting 80%
00:18:03of the attention.
00:18:04There's some truth to that,
00:18:05at least with regard
00:18:06to sort of match rates
00:18:07and swipe rates
00:18:08on Tinder and so on.
00:18:10But if you look
00:18:11at the actual data,
00:18:12you dig into it
00:18:13and, you know,
00:18:14more statistics
00:18:15and findings have come out
00:18:16since you and I've had
00:18:17those discussions
00:18:17a few years ago,
00:18:18suggest that actually
00:18:19that story isn't
00:18:20completely true.
00:18:22That, in fact,
00:18:23this has been going on
00:18:24for a long time,
00:18:24that very attractive men
00:18:26have always had
00:18:26the opportunity
00:18:27to mate with more women.
00:18:30So when you look
00:18:31at the data,
00:18:31it looks like
00:18:32something like
00:18:32about maybe 18%
00:18:34to 20%
00:18:35of men
00:18:36report having
00:18:39three or more
00:18:39sexual partners
00:18:40within the past year.
00:18:42And that really hasn't
00:18:42changed since about
00:18:43the year 2000,
00:18:44which is as far back
00:18:45as I could find
00:18:46data on this.
00:18:48And so you might think,
00:18:49okay, well,
00:18:49that's, there you go.
00:18:50You got the chats.
00:18:50The 20% of men
00:18:51are getting three or more
00:18:52partners a year.
00:18:53Those are the guys,
00:18:53you know,
00:18:53hogging all the women.
00:18:55But then when you look
00:18:56at the sexual behavior
00:18:57of women,
00:18:57you find essentially
00:18:58the same pattern,
00:18:59which is that
00:19:00something like
00:19:0112 to 18%
00:19:03of women
00:19:04also report
00:19:05three or more
00:19:05sexual partners a year.
00:19:07And what this means
00:19:08is that the vast majority
00:19:09of men
00:19:09and the vast majority
00:19:10of women
00:19:10have relatively
00:19:12unexciting sexual lives.
00:19:14The most common
00:19:14response to the question
00:19:16of how many partners
00:19:16have you had
00:19:17in the past 12 months
00:19:18is one
00:19:18followed by zero.
00:19:20So most sex
00:19:21is going on relationships
00:19:22followed by people
00:19:23not having sex at all.
00:19:24And then a small
00:19:25fraction of men
00:19:27and a small fraction
00:19:28of women
00:19:28who are high
00:19:29in socio-sexual orientation,
00:19:31very promiscuous
00:19:32and open to
00:19:32short-term mating,
00:19:33they're having a lot
00:19:34of sex with each other.
00:19:35At least partly attractive
00:19:35as well, presumably.
00:19:36Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
00:19:37Physically attractive.
00:19:39And what I suggest
00:19:40is that because
00:19:41dating apps
00:19:42have made this
00:19:43sort of frictionless
00:19:45and because social media
00:19:46has created
00:19:47this kind of panopticon
00:19:48where men in particular,
00:19:51you know,
00:19:52you got sort of
00:19:53the pickup artists
00:19:53and red pill guys
00:19:54who claim to be
00:19:55very successful
00:19:55with women bragging
00:19:56about how many women
00:19:57they've hooked up with.
00:19:59And then you have
00:19:59the incels
00:20:00on the other side of this
00:20:01who are, you know,
00:20:02not bragging,
00:20:03but, you know,
00:20:03I guess whining
00:20:04and complaining
00:20:05about how little sex
00:20:06they're having.
00:20:07This gives the impression
00:20:08that, oh wow,
00:20:08you got one segment
00:20:09of guys who are
00:20:10having all of the sex
00:20:11and then you have
00:20:11this other section
00:20:12of guys who are
00:20:12having none of the sex
00:20:13and then women
00:20:14are just passive bystanders
00:20:15who are maybe getting,
00:20:16you know,
00:20:17duped by the pickup artists
00:20:18or the chads
00:20:19or something.
00:20:20But what this suggests
00:20:21actually is that,
00:20:22you know,
00:20:22there is a kind of a chad,
00:20:23but the myth of the chad
00:20:25is that, yeah,
00:20:26that one segment of guys
00:20:27are having all of the sex
00:20:28with all of the women
00:20:29and it's not the case
00:20:31that there are,
00:20:32you know,
00:20:33there are fem cells,
00:20:34there are women
00:20:34in relationships,
00:20:35there are women
00:20:35who are just uninterested
00:20:36in dating.
00:20:37And you kind of see
00:20:39the mirror image
00:20:39of this for men as well.
00:20:41And weirdly,
00:20:42this suggests that men
00:20:42and women are more alike
00:20:43than many think,
00:20:45which is maybe a point
00:20:46to your book.
00:20:46It's one of the key ideas
00:20:48in my book,
00:20:48yeah.
00:20:48And I think that,
00:20:49you know,
00:20:50the average number
00:20:51of sexual partners
00:20:52that men have,
00:20:53if you exclude sex workers
00:20:55and the like,
00:20:55is somewhat higher.
00:20:57But I do think
00:20:58it's a very important point
00:20:59that, yeah,
00:21:00among the guys
00:21:01who are having sex
00:21:02with lots of women
00:21:02generally having sex
00:21:03with the women
00:21:04who are having sex
00:21:05with lots of guys.
00:21:06And that's the sociosexual few,
00:21:08right?
00:21:08Yeah,
00:21:08the sociosexual few.
00:21:09Alexander de Sykes.
00:21:10The promiscuous 10%
00:21:11is the kind of meme
00:21:13version of it.
00:21:14But I actually,
00:21:15so I think that
00:21:16tons of people at home
00:21:18and in the YouTube
00:21:19comment section,
00:21:20I 100% think it's interesting
00:21:22and take it for granted
00:21:22that what you're saying
00:21:24is true.
00:21:25But where do you think
00:21:26the myth actually
00:21:27originates from?
00:21:28And what do you think
00:21:29explains the,
00:21:30because it's not just
00:21:31necessarily the myth
00:21:32of the chat,
00:21:32it's also the illusion
00:21:33of the chat,
00:21:34where it's like people
00:21:35have this profound
00:21:36felt sense
00:21:37that they're being excluded
00:21:38from the mating market
00:21:39where some other,
00:21:41you know,
00:21:41some gorgeous guys
00:21:43are having tons of fun.
00:21:44Yeah.
00:21:44Well,
00:21:45you know,
00:21:45I think a part of it
00:21:46is the trend
00:21:48of dating apps.
00:21:49So,
00:21:50you know,
00:21:50the swipe rates
00:21:51are very easy
00:21:51to measure.
00:21:52There's been a lot
00:21:53of research on this
00:21:54and we mistakenly
00:21:56kind of over-interpret
00:21:57the findings
00:21:58of what people see
00:21:59on Tinder
00:22:00or on Hinge,
00:22:01which do show,
00:22:02you know,
00:22:02on Tinder,
00:22:02it's something like
00:22:034% of the men
00:22:05get the vast majority
00:22:06of the swipes.
00:22:08And then,
00:22:09you know,
00:22:10much smaller numbers,
00:22:12or rather,
00:22:14larger numbers of women
00:22:15get liked versus men.
00:22:16Same thing on Hinge,
00:22:17that the top 10%
00:22:18of male users on Hinge
00:22:19get 60% of the likes.
00:22:21And so,
00:22:21it's very easy
00:22:22to come away from that
00:22:23thinking like,
00:22:23oh,
00:22:23that's reality
00:22:24that,
00:22:24you know,
00:22:2410% of the guys
00:22:25are getting 60%
00:22:26of the female attention.
00:22:27There was that other
00:22:28finding about male attractiveness.
00:22:30You guys have probably
00:22:30seen this,
00:22:30that OKCupid data.
00:22:32That's kind of,
00:22:32you know,
00:22:32it's a little outdated,
00:22:34but it also kind of
00:22:36makes sense in a way
00:22:37that people would come
00:22:38away from that
00:22:38thinking like,
00:22:38oh,
00:22:39most women are only
00:22:40attracted to that
00:22:41small section
00:22:41of a fragment of guys
00:22:43and,
00:22:43you know,
00:22:43men are much more even
00:22:44and kind of fair
00:22:45in their assessment
00:22:46of women.
00:22:47And then I think
00:22:47social media as well
00:22:49that you're seeing guys
00:22:50like,
00:22:51they take these very
00:22:52anomalous interactions
00:22:54where women suddenly
00:22:56lose interest in them
00:22:57or ghost them
00:22:58or something
00:22:58and they tell this,
00:22:59you know,
00:23:00elaborate story
00:23:01and it's very
00:23:01attention grabbing
00:23:02and then those stories
00:23:03go viral.
00:23:04But the reason they go viral
00:23:05is because they're anomalous
00:23:06and atypical.
00:23:07Normal stories of,
00:23:08hey,
00:23:08like I met this girl
00:23:09and we really liked each other
00:23:11and now we're engaged,
00:23:12we're getting married.
00:23:12You post that,
00:23:13you'll get,
00:23:13you know,
00:23:1317 likes.
00:23:14But if you post,
00:23:15you know,
00:23:15I had this one,
00:23:16I'd stand with this girl
00:23:16but then she ghosted me
00:23:17or like I,
00:23:18you know,
00:23:18she was leading me on
00:23:19on the app
00:23:19but then she greeted me
00:23:20but then she didn't
00:23:21talk to me anymore.
00:23:22And you tell this story,
00:23:23it's like,
00:23:23oh,
00:23:23it's over boys
00:23:24or whatever.
00:23:24Like those are the stories
00:23:25that go viral.
00:23:27And then the other point
00:23:28I want to make about this
00:23:29is that,
00:23:29you know,
00:23:30this promiscuous 10%,
00:23:32this,
00:23:34on the side of the women,
00:23:36that is a highly
00:23:37sought after group.
00:23:39And,
00:23:40you know,
00:23:40there is,
00:23:40you know,
00:23:40a small fraction of women
00:23:42who are more promiscuous
00:23:43than other women.
00:23:45And the very,
00:23:46attractive men
00:23:47have access
00:23:48to that group.
00:23:50And the unattractive men
00:23:53who see this,
00:23:53they get jealous
00:23:54and they want access
00:23:56to that small group
00:23:56of women as well.
00:23:58But they mistakenly think
00:23:59that that's all women.
00:24:00I'm realizing that there's
00:24:01a huge cohort of women
00:24:02that have had zero
00:24:03or one partner
00:24:03in the last 12 months.
00:24:04It's sort of this,
00:24:05you know,
00:24:05this availability bias thing
00:24:07of like,
00:24:08well,
00:24:08I'm seeing all of this
00:24:08stuff happening online,
00:24:09all of the chatter
00:24:10about sex and chads
00:24:11and whatever,
00:24:11but you're not seeing
00:24:12this dark matter
00:24:13of women
00:24:14who aren't posting,
00:24:14who aren't on the apps,
00:24:15who are just like
00:24:16living their lives.
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00:24:28and not mix a bunch of pills.
00:24:30You want the eye
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00:24:31not the DUI
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00:25:21slash modernwisdom.
00:25:23If there's this
00:25:24Porsche polygamy,
00:25:26like Scott Galloway
00:25:26calls it,
00:25:27going on at the moment,
00:25:28at least even if
00:25:28it's in online dating,
00:25:30even if it's not
00:25:31represented in
00:25:31who's getting laid
00:25:32and all the rest of it,
00:25:33but if there's some degree
00:25:34of big bucket of attention
00:25:36going towards
00:25:37small number of guys,
00:25:40historically,
00:25:40does that mean
00:25:41that monogamous marriage
00:25:42was basically
00:25:43affirmative action
00:25:44for men?
00:25:46Yeah,
00:25:46yeah,
00:25:47yeah.
00:25:47I mean,
00:25:47so there was a recent
00:25:48paper about this
00:25:49where they suggested
00:25:50that marriage
00:25:51was an affirmative action
00:25:53for-
00:25:54Sexual redistribution.
00:25:55Yeah,
00:25:55sexual redistribution
00:25:56of women.
00:25:57They also used
00:25:57the phrase
00:25:58DEI for men
00:25:59that,
00:26:01you know,
00:26:02by definition,
00:26:03most guys are not
00:26:03in the top 10%
00:26:04or top 20%,
00:26:05and so monogamous
00:26:06marriage was a way
00:26:07to,
00:26:08you know,
00:26:08sort of pair men up
00:26:10with women one-on-one
00:26:11and it was a form of,
00:26:12I'll sometimes tongue-in-cheek
00:26:13call it sexual communism,
00:26:15sexual socialism,
00:26:16or the deregulation
00:26:17of the dating march in place.
00:26:20And now that we've,
00:26:22you know,
00:26:22we've kind of lifted that norm.
00:26:23Late-stage sexual capitalism.
00:26:24We went through a phase,
00:26:26I think,
00:26:26you know,
00:26:26maybe arguably
00:26:27starting in the 1960s,
00:26:28we deregulated things
00:26:30and now we're in
00:26:30this sort of
00:26:31the late-stage,
00:26:31and I think now people
00:26:32on,
00:26:33well,
00:26:33for a while,
00:26:34on the right,
00:26:35the kind of,
00:26:35I don't know,
00:26:36the manosphere right
00:26:37have been calling
00:26:39for some kind
00:26:40of a return,
00:26:41return with that B thing.
00:26:43And then on the left,
00:26:44increasingly,
00:26:45I think women
00:26:46are becoming fed up
00:26:46and they're sort of,
00:26:47you know,
00:26:48finding ways to,
00:26:49you know,
00:26:49reinvent,
00:26:51you know,
00:26:51what's that phrase?
00:26:52Demisexual.
00:26:53I'm only going to sleep
00:26:55with people that I'm
00:26:56emotionally connected to.
00:26:58Yeah,
00:26:58I'm not going to have sex
00:26:59with a stranger.
00:27:00You know,
00:27:00it requires its own category.
00:27:01It's a special kind of sexual.
00:27:02And then there's
00:27:02sapiosexual
00:27:04that's being attracted
00:27:05to people
00:27:06that you're intellectually
00:27:06stimulated by.
00:27:08And then there's
00:27:09solo poly.
00:27:11Solo poly,
00:27:12solo poly is my favorite.
00:27:13It's fucking hilarious.
00:27:15Solo poly is just
00:27:16one person sleeping around.
00:27:20Okay,
00:27:21just a slide.
00:27:22Yeah,
00:27:22or like a,
00:27:23just like a normal
00:27:24authority or dude.
00:27:25Man whore.
00:27:26Yeah,
00:27:26exactly.
00:27:27Just man whoring about.
00:27:29But yeah,
00:27:29the,
00:27:29the,
00:27:30I wonder whether
00:27:31part of
00:27:32some of the pushback
00:27:34against
00:27:35reintroduce
00:27:37sexual norms,
00:27:38regulate the sort of
00:27:39mating marketplace
00:27:40from women
00:27:41that you do sometimes
00:27:42see online.
00:27:44I mean,
00:27:44it's pushing back
00:27:45against freedom,
00:27:47independence.
00:27:47it kind of
00:27:48harkens back
00:27:49to pre-1960s
00:27:51type of restrictive
00:27:52expectations,
00:27:53gender stereotypes,
00:27:54et cetera.
00:27:55But I wonder if
00:27:56another part of it
00:27:56is that there is
00:27:57this implicit
00:27:58understanding
00:27:59that it maybe
00:28:00benefits men
00:28:01more than it
00:28:02benefits women
00:28:02to have
00:28:04marriage norms
00:28:05because it
00:28:06redistributes.
00:28:07It means that
00:28:08if it's going to be
00:28:09one-to-one,
00:28:10then maybe I'm going
00:28:10to be less able
00:28:11to compete.
00:28:12Whereas if there's
00:28:13a little bit more
00:28:13free-flowingness
00:28:15in the casual
00:28:16sex marketplace,
00:28:17I may be able
00:28:18to show traits
00:28:19that aren't
00:28:20immediately obvious
00:28:21to a partner
00:28:21and be able to get
00:28:22somebody of a higher
00:28:23value.
00:28:23Whereas with guys,
00:28:24they're always going
00:28:24to struggle a little
00:28:25bit more because
00:28:26women are choosier.
00:28:27I'm not sure
00:28:28because I think
00:28:28if that were the
00:28:29case,
00:28:30then women
00:28:31wouldn't be so
00:28:31keen on the idea
00:28:32and women often
00:28:33are very keen
00:28:33on the idea
00:28:34of having just
00:28:35one guy
00:28:35to themselves
00:28:36rather than
00:28:37having a guy
00:28:37who's going
00:28:38to have other
00:28:38women as well.
00:28:39I think that's
00:28:39why it was a
00:28:40puzzle to me
00:28:40about why
00:28:41it would be
00:28:41pushed back
00:28:42against to
00:28:43encourage
00:28:43monogamous
00:28:44norms from
00:28:45women.
00:28:45Given that
00:28:46the benefits,
00:28:47at least
00:28:48traditionally,
00:28:49I'm trying to
00:28:49go through
00:28:50late-stage
00:28:50everythingalism
00:28:51to work out
00:28:52where the
00:28:54culture has
00:28:54come into line.
00:28:55Do you
00:28:55understand what
00:28:55I mean?
00:28:56I do.
00:28:56I've seen
00:28:57a paper arguing
00:28:58that polygamy
00:29:00actually can be
00:29:01beneficial to
00:29:02women because
00:29:03women can
00:29:04choose to
00:29:05marry a
00:29:05high-status
00:29:05guy who's
00:29:06already got a
00:29:07wife and
00:29:08a high-status
00:29:08rich kind of
00:29:09guy rather
00:29:10than having to
00:29:11either not
00:29:12be married.
00:29:13It takes away
00:29:16that choice
00:29:16if somebody
00:29:17wants it.
00:29:18It means that
00:29:19the only choice
00:29:19is to have
00:29:19no partner
00:29:20or have
00:29:20somebody
00:29:21further down
00:29:21the totem pole.
00:29:23I will
00:29:23highlight that
00:29:24this discussion
00:29:25is bordering on
00:29:26a really
00:29:27controversial
00:29:28debate in the
00:29:29evolutionary social
00:29:30sciences,
00:29:31which is whether
00:29:32humans are more
00:29:33like maximally
00:29:34constrained
00:29:35polygynists,
00:29:36where it's like
00:29:37we're naturally
00:29:38an animal
00:29:39where males
00:29:40mate with
00:29:41multiple females
00:29:41and accumulate
00:29:42wives, so to
00:29:44say, but
00:29:44cultural practices
00:29:46and cultural
00:29:47evolution has
00:29:47restrained us.
00:29:49And then the
00:29:49other perspective
00:29:50is that, you
00:29:50know, in as
00:29:51much as we
00:29:51like, obviously
00:29:52humans have a
00:29:53menu of mating
00:29:54systems, as a
00:29:54lot of evolutionary
00:29:55psychologists like
00:29:56to say, but
00:29:58in as much as we
00:29:59have a default
00:29:59state, it's
00:30:00pretty clearly
00:30:00monogamy.
00:30:01And you'll hear
00:30:02different evo
00:30:04social scientists
00:30:05from different
00:30:06backgrounds argue
00:30:07for very
00:30:07different cases.
00:30:08I personally, and
00:30:09I think in reading
00:30:10Steve's work, he's
00:30:11actually been quite
00:30:11influential to me
00:30:12in this, I
00:30:12personally think
00:30:13that the
00:30:14monogamy case
00:30:15is stronger for
00:30:16a few reasons
00:30:17that I could
00:30:17speak of.
00:30:18And one of
00:30:19them actually is
00:30:19just that what
00:30:20we've said in
00:30:21this conversation
00:30:22is like, yeah,
00:30:22in theory, we've
00:30:23deregulated the
00:30:23market, so it's
00:30:24like, look, if
00:30:25an attractive
00:30:25man, honestly,
00:30:27even if a kind
00:30:28of good-looking
00:30:28man wants to
00:30:29just have infinite
00:30:30sexual partners,
00:30:31essentially, that
00:30:32is on the table
00:30:33for him, right?
00:30:34He can spend a
00:30:35lot of time
00:30:35doing that.
00:30:36But in the
00:30:36data, we're not
00:30:36really seeing
00:30:37people do that.
00:30:38Even though you're
00:30:39now as sexually
00:30:40permitted to do
00:30:41basically whatever
00:30:41you want with
00:30:42minimal judgment,
00:30:43most of what
00:30:45people do is
00:30:46still just do
00:30:47the boring thing
00:30:48and made
00:30:48monogamously.
00:30:48fall in love.
00:30:49I'm largely
00:30:50interested in one
00:30:51other person, at
00:30:52least for a
00:30:52while.
00:30:53Yeah, I agree.
00:30:54I agree with my
00:30:55views.
00:30:56Yeah, your
00:30:57views, which you
00:30:58gave me, and then
00:30:58I repeat them, and
00:30:59yeah, that's
00:31:00what it is.
00:31:00Are we serial
00:31:01monogamists,
00:31:02though?
00:31:02I mean, I've
00:31:02seen some
00:31:03ethnographies,
00:31:04hunter-gatherers,
00:31:05where it's common
00:31:07to pair-bond with
00:31:08one person, maybe
00:31:09have a child, maybe
00:31:10two children, and
00:31:11then the kind
00:31:11of romantic
00:31:13feelings can
00:31:14dissipate and
00:31:15then form a new
00:31:16relationship with
00:31:17someone else,
00:31:17kind of swinging
00:31:18to...
00:31:19Yeah, yeah.
00:31:19Very common.
00:31:20I've seen data as
00:31:21well.
00:31:22In those kind of
00:31:23societies, though,
00:31:24often a small
00:31:25number, a small
00:31:26but non-trivial
00:31:28number, 5% or so,
00:31:29of first marriages
00:31:30do last for life.
00:31:31So I think serial
00:31:33monogamy is
00:31:33probably more
00:31:34common.
00:31:34And I think we
00:31:35know that because
00:31:36most people fall
00:31:36in love more than
00:31:37once in their
00:31:38lifetimes.
00:31:39But it does
00:31:40sometimes happen,
00:31:41and we have a
00:31:41polygynous streak
00:31:42as well, I
00:31:43think.
00:31:45But, yeah, so
00:31:46when the guard
00:31:46rows are off and
00:31:47there are no
00:31:47strict rules, you
00:31:49tend to find that
00:31:50most relationships
00:31:50are pair bonds, and
00:31:52largely exclusive
00:31:53pair bonds.
00:31:55But you do also
00:31:56find that you
00:31:57have a small
00:31:58level of polygyny
00:31:59and a small
00:32:00level of full
00:32:02life mating, but
00:32:03switching is not
00:32:04uncommon.
00:32:04Jared, can you
00:32:04chat GPT?
00:32:06How many
00:32:07people, how many
00:32:09romantic partners
00:32:10does the average
00:32:11person fall in
00:32:13love with across
00:32:14their lifespan?
00:32:15Because until you
00:32:16had reliable
00:32:17contraception,
00:32:18anybody that you
00:32:19fell in love with
00:32:19presumably you
00:32:20were having sex
00:32:20with, and
00:32:21outside of either
00:32:23infertility issues
00:32:24or fertility
00:32:24compatibility issues,
00:32:26pretty much all of
00:32:27those people
00:32:27eventually would get
00:32:28pregnant if it was
00:32:28more than, I
00:32:29don't know, a
00:32:30couple of years,
00:32:31something like that.
00:32:32And the honeymoon
00:32:32period typically
00:32:33lasts around about
00:32:33that long.
00:32:34Yeah, it's like
00:32:3485% fertility for a
00:32:36couple for one
00:32:37year, then it
00:32:37jumps up to in the
00:32:3890s after two
00:32:39years.
00:32:39Here we go.
00:32:402026 Kinsey
00:32:41Institute study of
00:32:42over 10,000 US
00:32:42adults found the
00:32:43average number of
00:32:44passionate love
00:32:45experiences is 2.05.
00:32:4814% reported never
00:32:49having been
00:32:49passionate in love,
00:32:5028% reported being
00:32:52passionate in love
00:32:53once, 30% twice,
00:32:5417% three times,
00:32:5511% four or more
00:32:57times.
00:32:58Measured
00:32:58passionate love,
00:32:59the intense
00:32:59falling in love
00:33:00experience, not
00:33:00long-term
00:33:01attachment or
00:33:01commitment.
00:33:02Some people can
00:33:02fall deeply in
00:33:03love only once,
00:33:04others do
00:33:04multiple times.
00:33:06People also
00:33:07experience renewed
00:33:08feelings of love
00:33:09within the same
00:33:09long-term
00:33:10relationship, which
00:33:10is harder to
00:33:11count.
00:33:11So about two
00:33:11times on average
00:33:12throughout your
00:33:13life.
00:33:13So that would
00:33:14suggest if you
00:33:15don't have
00:33:15reliable
00:33:16contraception, if
00:33:17having sex leads
00:33:18to having babies
00:33:19and if you're
00:33:19having sex when
00:33:20you're in love
00:33:20with somebody,
00:33:21you know, 11%
00:33:23of people just
00:33:24going through the
00:33:25machinate, forget
00:33:26culture, forget
00:33:27anything over the
00:33:28top, like those
00:33:29people would have
00:33:30cycled through
00:33:30multiple partners
00:33:31across their
00:33:32lifespan.
00:33:33Surely this is
00:33:34just the most
00:33:34unencumbered
00:33:35that, you
00:33:36don't get to
00:33:37dictate your
00:33:37attachment system,
00:33:38unfortunately, as
00:33:39much as lots of
00:33:40people would want
00:33:41to not fall out
00:33:42of love with a
00:33:42partner that
00:33:43they're attached
00:33:43to or fall in
00:33:44love with a
00:33:44partner that
00:33:45they can't
00:33:45or whatever.
00:33:48This seems to
00:33:49just suggest
00:33:49that's what our
00:33:50system is doing.
00:33:52Most people, by
00:33:54a distance, only
00:33:55is it, so 14
00:33:58plus 28, so 42%,
00:33:59so only 42% of
00:34:01humans, less
00:34:02than half, have
00:34:05said that it's
00:34:05only happened
00:34:06once or
00:34:06none, that it
00:34:08hasn't happened
00:34:08twice or more.
00:34:09I think that's
00:34:09interesting because
00:34:10it aligns with the
00:34:11data I had
00:34:11mentioned about
00:34:12number of sex
00:34:13partners as
00:34:13well, that most
00:34:14people say that
00:34:15in the past 12
00:34:16months they've
00:34:16had sex with
00:34:16one person or
00:34:17zero people, and
00:34:19that a small
00:34:19number of
00:34:20people, I don't
00:34:20know what the
00:34:21number exactly
00:34:21was up there,
00:34:22three or more
00:34:22times, it was a
00:34:23small fragment of
00:34:24people who say
00:34:25that they've had
00:34:26sex, or rather,
00:34:27have had three or
00:34:28more sexual
00:34:28partners in the
00:34:29past year, but
00:34:29then also fallen
00:34:30in love three or
00:34:30more times in
00:34:31their lives.
00:34:32If we weren't
00:34:33severely monogamous,
00:34:34we tilt toward
00:34:36monogamy, but
00:34:37then maybe a
00:34:37small percentage of
00:34:38people are more
00:34:39polygynous or
00:34:41high socio-sexual
00:34:42orientation, less
00:34:43monogamous.
00:34:44Yes, and I guess
00:34:44one thing in this
00:34:45kind of discussion
00:34:46is to remember
00:34:46individual differences.
00:34:47Yes, that humans
00:34:49aren't all the
00:34:50same, and we have
00:34:50different meeting
00:34:51strategies.
00:34:52What's this new
00:34:53study that shows
00:34:54preference for
00:34:55resourceful partners
00:34:56softens when
00:34:57women are richer?
00:34:59Are you talking
00:34:59about the P&AS
00:35:01paper that we
00:35:02did?
00:35:03This is something
00:35:05that I could talk
00:35:06about for hours,
00:35:06so please tell me
00:35:08to shut up after
00:35:0830 to 50 seconds
00:35:10if you can manage
00:35:11it.
00:35:12I was going to
00:35:12say 30 to 50
00:35:13minutes.
00:35:14I was like,
00:35:15all right,
00:35:15I'm going to kick
00:35:15back, crack open
00:35:16the tongue.
00:35:18That's funny.
00:35:19Yeah, so there's
00:35:20been a long-standing
00:35:21debate over the
00:35:21last, I would say,
00:35:2237 years.
00:35:24I mean, it's been
00:35:25intense for 37
00:35:26years, but it's,
00:35:28you know, it
00:35:29actually predates
00:35:30that even, about
00:35:31the causes of
00:35:34sex differences
00:35:35in mate
00:35:36preferences, and a
00:35:37huge variable that
00:35:38people consider in
00:35:40this topic, probably
00:35:41the variable, if
00:35:41you were going to
00:35:42pick just one, is
00:35:43gender inequality,
00:35:44and if you're
00:35:45going to pick a
00:35:45second one, it's
00:35:46probably income.
00:35:48What does
00:35:48mean?
00:35:48What does
00:35:48mean?
00:35:48What does
00:35:49mean?
00:35:49Well, I'm glad
00:35:51you asked, because
00:35:51it means different
00:35:52things depending on
00:35:53which social
00:35:54scientist you're
00:35:55talking to.
00:35:56So we know, and
00:35:57anyone who
00:35:58listens to this
00:35:58podcast has
00:35:59heard a million
00:36:00times that men
00:36:02have a stronger
00:36:03mate preference
00:36:04for looks, on
00:36:05average, at
00:36:05least certainly in
00:36:06their state of
00:36:07mate preferences,
00:36:07and in some
00:36:08revealed measures
00:36:09as well.
00:36:10And then women
00:36:11have a stronger
00:36:12state of mate
00:36:13preference for
00:36:13resources, and
00:36:14then obviously
00:36:15there's the sex
00:36:16difference in age
00:36:17preferences, where
00:36:18men have a
00:36:18preference for
00:36:19youth, and then
00:36:20women have a
00:36:21preference for
00:36:21slightly older than
00:36:22them throughout
00:36:22their lives.
00:36:24So you've got all
00:36:24those differences,
00:36:25and there's been
00:36:26this very long
00:36:26standing debate
00:36:27over the extent
00:36:28to which this is
00:36:29explicable with
00:36:29reference to
00:36:30social and
00:36:31economic factors,
00:36:32and the extent to
00:36:33which it's
00:36:34explicable by
00:36:35evolutionary
00:36:37factors.
00:36:39So what we
00:36:40did, if you go
00:36:41through this
00:36:42debate, there's
00:36:42been tons of
00:36:43cross-cultural
00:36:43studies.
00:36:44There's been
00:36:45seven really,
00:36:47really big ones,
00:36:48and those have
00:36:48generally found
00:36:49that five out
00:36:55of the seven
00:36:55have found
00:36:56something there
00:36:56with regards to
00:36:57mate preferences
00:36:58for resources and
00:36:59gender inequality.
00:37:01All of the ones
00:37:02that checked
00:37:02age found that
00:37:04when gender
00:37:05inequality is
00:37:06lower, age
00:37:06mate preferences
00:37:08and age gaps
00:37:09get smaller.
00:37:11And then the
00:37:12beauty basically
00:37:12doesn't move.
00:37:13In fact, there's
00:37:14even some evidence
00:37:14that it goes in
00:37:15the opposite
00:37:15direction in one
00:37:16of those analyses.
00:37:17So you've got
00:37:18this kind of mixed
00:37:18result there.
00:37:19And then you
00:37:20can look at
00:37:20the individual
00:37:21level studies
00:37:22as well, where
00:37:23you look at
00:37:24when people have
00:37:24more money, what
00:37:25happens to their
00:37:26mate preferences.
00:37:27And I could
00:37:29talk about that
00:37:29more.
00:37:29It's actually a
00:37:30bit controversial.
00:37:31So there's
00:37:32different ways of
00:37:33measuring this.
00:37:34But basically
00:37:35what it finds
00:37:36is that it does
00:37:38not move in the
00:37:39way that you
00:37:39would expect from
00:37:40the social role
00:37:41theory perspective
00:37:42where it's like,
00:37:42oh, when women
00:37:43have more money,
00:37:44they're going to
00:37:44start wanting
00:37:44young, gorgeous
00:37:45men.
00:37:46Individual women
00:37:47who are rich,
00:37:49that doesn't
00:37:50seem to happen.
00:37:50However, there
00:37:51are some caveats
00:37:52there.
00:37:53So we did, we've
00:37:53got all this
00:37:54cross-sectional data.
00:37:55Basically, you're
00:37:55hearing about
00:37:56correlational study,
00:37:56correlational study,
00:37:57correlational study
00:37:58until the cows
00:37:59come home.
00:38:00And we said,
00:38:01well, we're
00:38:02testing causal
00:38:02relationships and
00:38:03we know what's
00:38:04happening correlationally.
00:38:05And there's been
00:38:06critiques both from
00:38:07the evolutionary
00:38:07psychologists and
00:38:09from the social
00:38:09rule theorists
00:38:10about the
00:38:11correlational nature
00:38:12of these studies,
00:38:13depending on which
00:38:14ones they don't
00:38:14like, essentially.
00:38:16And so we said,
00:38:17okay, well, we'll
00:38:17do an experiment.
00:38:18And so we did a
00:38:19really complicated,
00:38:20unfortunately complicated,
00:38:21complexity is not a
00:38:22virtue, but it's just
00:38:23necessary for this
00:38:24sort of study design.
00:38:25We did a 45
00:38:26condition experiment
00:38:27that varied
00:38:28people's individual
00:38:29income and local
00:38:31gender economic
00:38:32inequality.
00:38:34And then we tried
00:38:34to see how those
00:38:35variables would
00:38:36predict changes
00:38:37and make preferences.
00:38:38So basically,
00:38:38participants were put
00:38:39inside of a virtual
00:38:40environment where their
00:38:41economics were
00:38:42different.
00:38:42Now, I'm sure the
00:38:43timer has probably
00:38:43gone for five minutes.
00:38:44I feel like I'm
00:38:45giving a massive
00:38:45speech here, but it
00:38:46is just a complicated
00:38:47background to review.
00:38:49And what we found
00:38:50was actually something
00:38:51that was slightly
00:38:52inconsistent with the
00:38:54evocyte perspective,
00:38:55slightly inconsistent
00:38:56with the social
00:38:56rule perspective,
00:38:57and actually most
00:38:58consistent with a
00:38:59perspective that's
00:38:59been common in
00:39:00behavioral ecology
00:39:01for a very long
00:39:02time, which is that
00:39:03people will adjust
00:39:04their mate preferences
00:39:05strategically based
00:39:06on what the
00:39:07environment incentivizes
00:39:08them to want.
00:39:10And what we found
00:39:11is that when people
00:39:12are poor, as in
00:39:14as individuals
00:39:15they're poor, or
00:39:16as in the opposite
00:39:17sex is rich and
00:39:18their sex is
00:39:18disenfranchised, they
00:39:19upregulate their
00:39:20mate preferences for
00:39:21resources.
00:39:22So this is true in
00:39:23ranked preferences, in
00:39:25rated preferences, and
00:39:26also in hypergamous
00:39:27preferences, so desire
00:39:28to mate with someone
00:39:29who's richer than
00:39:30yourself.
00:39:30And this goes for
00:39:31both men and
00:39:32women?
00:39:32For both men and
00:39:33women, yes.
00:39:34Is the effect less
00:39:34for men than it is
00:39:35for women?
00:39:36The effect, it's
00:39:38really complicated and
00:39:38it depends on which
00:39:39specific measure you're
00:39:40talking about.
00:39:42And so it depends.
00:39:44We could kind of go
00:39:45into detail on there.
00:39:46Our main analyses
00:39:47were testing the
00:39:48effects of the
00:39:49variables on both
00:39:50sexes.
00:39:50That's interesting,
00:39:51man.
00:39:51And we didn't find
00:39:53beauty preferences
00:39:53moved, which
00:39:54actually wouldn't
00:39:55make sense to a
00:39:56social role theorist.
00:39:57Can you explain?
00:39:59As in social role
00:40:00theorists, they
00:40:01generally say, oh,
00:40:01the reason that mate
00:40:03preferences for beauty
00:40:04are different is
00:40:06because there are
00:40:07social and economic
00:40:08gender differences.
00:40:10But those
00:40:11experimentally, it
00:40:12doesn't really show
00:40:13up in the cross
00:40:13cultural data to
00:40:14begin with, but also
00:40:15doesn't show up in
00:40:15the experiments.
00:40:16And then weirdly, the
00:40:17age differences didn't
00:40:18move.
00:40:18The age preferences,
00:40:19those didn't move.
00:40:20And I really expected
00:40:21them to because we
00:40:22pre-registered that we
00:40:23thought that that was
00:40:23going to happen because
00:40:24that's what the
00:40:25cross-cultural
00:40:25literature showed, but
00:40:26it didn't.
00:40:27However, mate
00:40:27preferences for
00:40:28resources, which is
00:40:29really what you'd
00:40:30expect to move in
00:40:30this sort of
00:40:31experiment because
00:40:31that's the strategic
00:40:33variable that's being
00:40:34adjusted.
00:40:35It makes a lot of
00:40:36sense.
00:40:36I think verbally,
00:40:37I could talk about
00:40:37the modeling work
00:40:38and I could talk
00:40:39about it in like a
00:40:39really obscure way.
00:40:41But at a very basic
00:40:42level, I find it very
00:40:43intuitive that it's
00:40:43like if I was poor
00:40:44and if women were
00:40:46rich, yeah, I would
00:40:47want to date someone
00:40:50rich more than I
00:40:51currently do now and
00:40:52vice versa.
00:40:53We even saw this in
00:40:54our qualitative data
00:40:55where when women were
00:40:56in conditions where
00:40:57it's like, oh, you
00:40:58have a lot of money
00:40:59and men are really
00:40:59poor, they're like,
00:41:00well, then I don't
00:41:01really need to date
00:41:01for money.
00:41:02That's fine.
00:41:02Interesting.
00:41:03But do you think
00:41:03that that's an
00:41:04evolved tendency?
00:41:05I would kind of
00:41:05think that there's
00:41:06evolutionary push
00:41:08toward women being
00:41:11more interested in
00:41:12resources and status
00:41:13than men are.
00:41:14But you just think
00:41:15about things and
00:41:16you just might
00:41:17reason, what's the
00:41:18best way for me to
00:41:18make a living and
00:41:19life while I'm poor?
00:41:20So I'm just going to
00:41:21reason about the fact
00:41:22that it would be better
00:41:23for me to marry this
00:41:24person who's wealthy
00:41:24than to marry someone
00:41:26who's poor.
00:41:27If you see what I
00:41:28mean, so you could
00:41:28just explain it as a
00:41:29rational thing, a
00:41:30reasoned thing rather
00:41:31than an evolved thing.
00:41:32I take an evolutionary
00:41:35anthropological approach.
00:41:36My whole background is
00:41:37anthropology.
00:41:38And so it's slightly
00:41:39different from the
00:41:39evo-psych approach
00:41:40where there's actually
00:41:41this maneuver that's
00:41:42used in evo-anthro
00:41:44work, which is called
00:41:45the phenotypic gambit,
00:41:46where you basically say,
00:41:47well, I don't really
00:41:48know what's happening
00:41:49inside the mind.
00:41:50The mind is a bit of
00:41:50a black box, but I'm
00:41:52interested in the
00:41:52inputs and I'm
00:41:53interested in the
00:41:54outputs.
00:41:54So let me see what
00:41:55the inputs, let me
00:41:56change the inputs and
00:41:56see if the outputs
00:41:58match what you would
00:41:58expect from a
00:41:59strategic perspective.
00:42:02So look, it could
00:42:04be the case that it
00:42:05was purely conscious
00:42:06strategic thinking,
00:42:08which is also an
00:42:08evolved trait, right?
00:42:09That's an evolved
00:42:10ability that we
00:42:10should use presumably
00:42:12in ways that help
00:42:13our fitness.
00:42:14Otherwise, it
00:42:15couldn't have
00:42:15evolved.
00:42:16If strategic
00:42:17thinking didn't
00:42:18improve fitness,
00:42:18it wouldn't have
00:42:19evolved.
00:42:19But there have
00:42:21been some scholars
00:42:21like Gangestad in
00:42:222006 who have
00:42:24played with the idea
00:42:25that there might
00:42:25actually be a
00:42:26domain-specific
00:42:28evolved psychological
00:42:29module in the
00:42:30mind that is
00:42:31designed to
00:42:31essentially detect
00:42:32scarcity and
00:42:33change your
00:42:34resource preferences
00:42:35to some degree.
00:42:36I'm not sure if
00:42:37he focused on
00:42:37scarcity.
00:42:38He looked at a
00:42:39couple variables,
00:42:39but I do remember
00:42:40that he did
00:42:41posit this.
00:42:41So I'm open to
00:42:42the idea that
00:42:43there's some
00:42:43evolved resource
00:42:44scarcity detection
00:42:45thing, but I
00:42:47don't know because
00:42:47the experiment
00:42:48didn't test that.
00:42:49It just tested
00:42:49the inputs and
00:42:50outputs.
00:42:50Have you
00:42:51considered that
00:42:51the reason that
00:42:52the age didn't
00:42:54show up is that
00:42:55the single biggest
00:42:55predictor of wealth
00:42:56is age, and if
00:42:57you control for
00:42:58wealth, much
00:42:59of what is
00:43:00added by age
00:43:01gets taken
00:43:01away?
00:43:02That's exactly
00:43:02what we wrote
00:43:02in the paper.
00:43:03Dude, don't
00:43:04fucking test me,
00:43:06okay?
00:43:07I know this
00:43:07shit.
00:43:08On this point
00:43:10about resources,
00:43:11so if you...
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00:44:18This is generally
00:44:19controversial, but
00:44:21the idea of the
00:44:22evolutionary adapted
00:44:23environment, or the
00:44:25environment of
00:44:25evolutionary adaptation,
00:44:28wasn't scarcity
00:44:29more or less the
00:44:30norm?
00:44:30And so this idea
00:44:31that we have an
00:44:32evolved module to
00:44:33detect scarcity
00:44:34versus abundance,
00:44:35I mean, everyone
00:44:36was roughly equally
00:44:37poor because in
00:44:38these communities,
00:44:39people shared just
00:44:39about everything.
00:44:40Yes, you had
00:44:40talented hunters,
00:44:41but generally, my
00:44:42understanding is
00:44:43they shared their
00:44:44spoils, and it
00:44:47wasn't until after
00:44:49the agricultural
00:44:49revolution that we
00:44:50were able to
00:44:50stockpile large
00:44:51amounts of
00:44:52resources.
00:44:52Well, yeah, this
00:44:53is actually something
00:44:54that's controversial
00:44:54in anthropology
00:44:55because it's true
00:44:56that if you go off
00:44:56of modern
00:44:57hunter-gatherers,
00:44:58then you do get
00:44:58this impression
00:44:59that, like, oh,
00:44:59scarcity is the
00:45:00norm, but all the
00:45:01good places became
00:45:02agricultural, so
00:45:03it's like there
00:45:04could have, like,
00:45:04you look at, there
00:45:05are animals where
00:45:06it's like they're in
00:45:07environments that
00:45:07they're very well
00:45:08adapted to, and
00:45:09they're not really
00:45:09struggling, and I
00:45:10would say that
00:45:11that had been around
00:45:12for long enough
00:45:12for us to have
00:45:13been able to
00:45:13develop modules
00:45:14that would be
00:45:14baked in to be
00:45:16adapted to?
00:45:16Well, again, I
00:45:17personally don't
00:45:18have an opinion
00:45:18on the module
00:45:19thing, so it's
00:45:20not something that
00:45:20I'm, it's not,
00:45:21it's actually not
00:45:22something that I
00:45:22think is true,
00:45:23it's just something
00:45:23that I'm kind of
00:45:24putting out there,
00:45:25like, I'm genuinely
00:45:26open about
00:45:26mechanisms, I
00:45:27could hear any
00:45:28side of the
00:45:29story, but I
00:45:30do think that
00:45:31it's, like,
00:45:31there is some
00:45:32interesting shit
00:45:33here, like, for
00:45:34example, there's
00:45:36the studies that
00:45:37we've talked
00:45:37about before,
00:45:38where when men
00:45:38are primed with
00:45:39scarcity, such
00:45:41as when they're
00:45:41hungry,
00:45:42or when they're
00:45:43acutely poor, or
00:45:44whether, when
00:45:44there's a local
00:45:45famine, they shift
00:45:46to preferring larger
00:45:47women, right?
00:45:48And that seems to
00:45:49suggest that there
00:45:50may have been some
00:45:51fluctuations in how
00:45:53valuable larger
00:45:54women were, that's
00:45:55selected for some...
00:45:55And also it
00:45:56suggests that there
00:45:57was fluctuations in
00:45:58how large women
00:45:58were.
00:45:59Yeah, exactly.
00:45:59There were times, we
00:46:00spoke about this
00:46:01earlier on, there
00:46:01were times of
00:46:02surplus to the point
00:46:03where people could
00:46:04at least gain a
00:46:05little bit more
00:46:05body fat.
00:46:06Yeah, and there
00:46:06are very realistic
00:46:07depictions of
00:46:08obese people in
00:46:09prehistory.
00:46:10I know it sounds
00:46:11surprising, but it's
00:46:12like...
00:46:12Dude, if you manage
00:46:12to be fat in
00:46:13prehistory, that is
00:46:15a real accomplishment.
00:46:16Yeah.
00:46:17Real accomplishment.
00:46:18Yeah, so I think
00:46:19that there probably
00:46:19were some, I think
00:46:20there probably were
00:46:21some cases.
00:46:21You won't find it
00:46:22in modern hunter-gatherers
00:46:23because they've been
00:46:24pushed out by the
00:46:24agriculturalists to
00:46:25these places that are
00:46:26really difficult to
00:46:27live for the most
00:46:28part.
00:46:29Oh, that's so
00:46:30fucking interesting.
00:46:30Okay, so when we
00:46:31do studies of
00:46:32modern hunter-gatherers
00:46:33by design, they're
00:46:34not in the
00:46:34desirable locations.
00:46:36No, they're usually
00:46:37in...
00:46:37Desirable locations
00:46:37have all been
00:46:37populated by modern
00:46:39people.
00:46:39Yeah.
00:46:39So modern hunter-gatherers
00:46:41are in the scraps,
00:46:42the bottom of the
00:46:43barrel, from an
00:46:44ecological perspective,
00:46:45from a soil
00:46:46condition perspective,
00:46:47from how much
00:46:48wildlife they've got
00:46:49to hunt.
00:46:50So that's just not...
00:46:51Whereas you could
00:46:52have the equivalent
00:46:53of a Galapagos
00:46:55valley type thing
00:46:57with no natural
00:46:58predators and an
00:46:59abundance of food
00:47:00and fresh running
00:47:01water and even if
00:47:02you're not yet at the
00:47:03point of doing
00:47:04agricultural-induced
00:47:05abundance, you're
00:47:07still so overwhelmed
00:47:08just from a resource
00:47:09perspective.
00:47:10There's fucking deer
00:47:11running everywhere
00:47:12and rabbits and
00:47:13berries and...
00:47:13And there is
00:47:14paleoanthropological
00:47:15evidence of these
00:47:16massive kill sites
00:47:16where it's just like
00:47:17you wouldn't believe
00:47:18how many animals
00:47:19they were killing.
00:47:20So it seems like
00:47:21they may have been
00:47:21doing okay in some
00:47:22cases.
00:47:23But I don't know.
00:47:23Again, the module
00:47:24thing, it's...
00:47:25It's tricky, right?
00:47:26It's not something
00:47:27that I...
00:47:27It's genuinely not
00:47:29something that I've
00:47:30thought very deeply
00:47:31about because it's
00:47:31not an interest area
00:47:32for me.
00:47:33So what's the
00:47:33adaptive rationale
00:47:35though?
00:47:35If there's lots of
00:47:36abundance, you would
00:47:37want a more
00:47:37attractive...
00:47:39A more heavier
00:47:40woman.
00:47:41Oh, right.
00:47:42Well, that's separate
00:47:43from the PNAS paper.
00:47:46Indeed.
00:47:47Yeah, yeah.
00:47:48So the rationale
00:47:48there...
00:47:49Yeah, exactly.
00:47:50So some people call
00:47:52it that and others
00:47:53call it the insurance
00:47:54hypothesis and there's
00:47:56some kind of
00:47:56disagreements as to
00:47:58what exactly is going
00:47:58on there.
00:47:58It's in scarcity
00:47:59specifically.
00:48:00So in environments
00:48:00of scarcity, they
00:48:01prefer...
00:48:02Yeah, yeah.
00:48:03Did I say it the
00:48:04other way around?
00:48:04Yeah, yeah.
00:48:04Scarcity.
00:48:05Yeah, yeah.
00:48:05Yeah, yeah.
00:48:06So it's interesting.
00:48:08It's something that
00:48:08shows up with a lot of
00:48:09different study
00:48:10designs, which is
00:48:11pretty cool, right?
00:48:11Like you can do the
00:48:12cross-cultural
00:48:13anthropological stuff
00:48:14and see like, oh,
00:48:15yeah, among the
00:48:16South African Zulu,
00:48:17they're saying that
00:48:18up to...
00:48:18Or in Jamaica
00:48:19or in St. Kitts,
00:48:21they're saying that,
00:48:22you know, women who
00:48:23have BMIs in the
00:48:2530s are quite
00:48:26beautiful.
00:48:27And then you go
00:48:27somewhere like really
00:48:28like affluent
00:48:29Singaporean women
00:48:30or something like
00:48:31that, they have
00:48:32different preferences.
00:48:33So...
00:48:33Or Korea or
00:48:34someplace.
00:48:35Then you see
00:48:35experimentally where
00:48:36when men are
00:48:37hungrier, they have
00:48:38a preference for
00:48:39larger women.
00:48:39And the idea is
00:48:41that it's like,
00:48:41well, what is fat?
00:48:43Fat is literally
00:48:44like a bank account
00:48:46filled with calories.
00:48:47And so if you're
00:48:47in an environment
00:48:48where it's...
00:48:49And also we know
00:48:49that when women
00:48:51are acutely
00:48:53starving, they
00:48:54become infertile,
00:48:56right?
00:48:56So it's not just
00:48:57like, oh, this
00:48:58person knows where
00:48:59food is and will
00:49:00be able to feed me
00:49:01and offspring and
00:49:02do provisioning and
00:49:03stuff.
00:49:03It's not just that.
00:49:03It's also like a
00:49:04practical thing of
00:49:05like, oh, if we're
00:49:06in a famine right now,
00:49:07these women can
00:49:08definitely get
00:49:08pregnant, these women
00:49:09definitely can't.
00:49:10So that's a huge
00:49:11part of life.
00:49:12But why does it flip
00:49:12then in conditions
00:49:13of abundance?
00:49:15Yes, this is what's
00:49:17so much more
00:49:19difficult to explain.
00:49:20And the leading
00:49:22hypothesis, I would
00:49:23say, for why thinness
00:49:24is preferred in
00:49:25abundance is because
00:49:26it's a very reliable
00:49:27signal to youth and
00:49:28nulliparity.
00:49:29So it's one of those
00:49:31things.
00:49:31But isn't that the
00:49:32case in all
00:49:32societies?
00:49:33And isn't some
00:49:34degree of chubbiness
00:49:37a sign in all
00:49:38societies, regardless
00:49:39of their abundance or
00:49:40scarcity, that the
00:49:41person isn't going to
00:49:42be able to get
00:49:42pregnant?
00:49:44I'm just not
00:49:44sure why.
00:49:45I'm not really
00:49:46persuaded by the
00:49:47adaptive rationale for
00:49:48why it was switched
00:49:49and also why it was
00:49:50switched so quickly
00:49:50and you just get a
00:49:51little bit hungry and
00:49:52suddenly your
00:49:52preference is switched
00:49:53and then you eat
00:49:54some food and then
00:49:54they suddenly switch
00:49:55back.
00:49:55The switches are
00:49:57very small in those
00:49:58studies.
00:49:59So we're talking
00:49:59about like a 10
00:50:00pound difference.
00:50:01It's like, I believe
00:50:02the dining hall
00:50:03study, for example,
00:50:04which has been
00:50:05replicated, it is
00:50:06pretty cool, where
00:50:08it's men going into
00:50:09a dining hall versus
00:50:10coming out.
00:50:11It was a small
00:50:12shift.
00:50:13It wasn't like they
00:50:14were preferring
00:50:15completely different
00:50:15looking women.
00:50:16But the cross
00:50:17cultural stuff, where
00:50:18it's really big
00:50:19differences in
00:50:19environment, then
00:50:20you're seeing
00:50:21genuinely different
00:50:22beauty standards.
00:50:23And a lot of
00:50:23people say it's
00:50:24like, oh, they're
00:50:24like, it's
00:50:25interesting how
00:50:27much Western
00:50:29male psychology
00:50:29often resists
00:50:31this.
00:50:31Like, I've had
00:50:32interviewers really
00:50:33push back on me
00:50:34like, you know,
00:50:35isn't this just
00:50:35that they're taking
00:50:36what they can
00:50:37get, like these
00:50:38men don't have
00:50:38options and so
00:50:39they have to go
00:50:40with the bigger
00:50:40women.
00:50:41And I'm like,
00:50:41no, no, no,
00:50:42you're not
00:50:42understanding.
00:50:42It's not, it's
00:50:43not, it's not,
00:50:44they are given
00:50:45a chart of body
00:50:47types and asked
00:50:48what's attractive
00:50:49and to what
00:50:50degree.
00:50:50That's what
00:50:50they prefer.
00:50:51So I am at
00:50:51the bar, that's
00:50:52all that's left.
00:50:54Yeah, that's
00:50:54what they're
00:50:55saying.
00:50:55I wonder if
00:50:57it's that certain
00:50:58body types get
00:50:59linked with
00:50:59status in
00:51:00different cultures
00:51:01and cultures
00:51:02where there's not
00:51:02a lot of
00:51:03abundance to be
00:51:04able to get
00:51:04bigger indicates
00:51:06that you have
00:51:07good access to
00:51:07resources, it
00:51:08becomes associated
00:51:09with status and
00:51:10it's the reverse
00:51:10in more abundant
00:51:11societies.
00:51:12So on this point,
00:51:13total conjecture
00:51:14here, but in
00:51:15both environments,
00:51:16fatness or
00:51:16thinness could
00:51:17signal conscientiousness.
00:51:18So if you are in
00:51:19an environment of
00:51:20abundance and
00:51:21you're thin, that
00:51:21signals impulse
00:51:22control and the
00:51:23ability to withstand
00:51:24temptation,
00:51:25conscientious
00:51:25personality, and
00:51:26then in
00:51:27environments of
00:51:27scarcity, if
00:51:28you're big, that
00:51:29means you're
00:51:29conscientious because
00:51:30you went out and
00:51:30acquired the calories
00:51:31and you're a hard
00:51:32worker.
00:51:33That's really cool.
00:51:34Yeah, so the
00:51:35status link is
00:51:36really interesting.
00:51:37What you're saying
00:51:37is really interesting
00:51:38and it does fit
00:51:39with the cross
00:51:40cultural beautification
00:51:41research as well
00:51:42where what we see
00:51:43is that I would
00:51:44say broadly, this
00:51:45isn't based on one
00:51:46study, but many
00:51:47individual sites
00:51:49essentially.
00:51:50So maybe you do
00:51:50like a true
00:51:51cross-cultural
00:51:52regression and it
00:51:53doesn't come out,
00:51:54but it does seem
00:51:55based on reading
00:51:56individual accounts
00:51:57that in
00:51:59environments where
00:52:01food is abundant,
00:52:02the signal is like,
00:52:03oh, I'm going
00:52:03to increase
00:52:04movement and
00:52:05restrict calories
00:52:06and then you go
00:52:07to some places
00:52:08where they have
00:52:09the fattening
00:52:11huts, for example,
00:52:12where it's like
00:52:14restrict movement
00:52:15and increase
00:52:16calories in order
00:52:17to try and be
00:52:18more attractive.
00:52:19What's a fattening
00:52:19hut?
00:52:19So this is
00:52:20something that's
00:52:20seen in some
00:52:22cultures where
00:52:24women before
00:52:25marriage will
00:52:27restrict their
00:52:29movement and
00:52:29increase their
00:52:30caloric intake
00:52:31in order to
00:52:33view it of a
00:52:33hut?
00:52:33I don't know
00:52:35if it's always
00:52:36literally the
00:52:37case, but
00:52:38yeah.
00:52:39Where's the
00:52:40hut?
00:52:40There's actually
00:52:41even, I was
00:52:42reading one
00:52:43account and I
00:52:43can't remember
00:52:43which, I think
00:52:45it was
00:52:45Mauritania, but
00:52:46I'm not sure,
00:52:47where it was
00:52:48them talking
00:52:48about how, and
00:52:49I really realized
00:52:49like, oh, this
00:52:50is a beauty
00:52:50preference, like
00:52:51this is real,
00:52:52because they
00:52:54were having to
00:52:54stop the men
00:52:55from spying on
00:52:57the women who
00:52:57were in the
00:52:57fattening huts
00:52:58because they
00:52:59were coveting
00:52:59this, right?
00:53:02So it was like
00:53:03they really
00:53:04wanted to see.
00:53:04There's a
00:53:04supermodel
00:53:05beauty pageant
00:53:05going on.
00:53:06That's a
00:53:06hot dog eating
00:53:08contest.
00:53:10I imagine
00:53:12an actual
00:53:12supermodel
00:53:12contest as
00:53:13well, the
00:53:13same thing.
00:53:14So I would
00:53:14say that the
00:53:15status thing is
00:53:16interesting.
00:53:17I have no doubt
00:53:17that that could
00:53:19be part of
00:53:19it, but when
00:53:20I look at the
00:53:21full range of
00:53:22evidence and
00:53:23include the
00:53:23hunger studies,
00:53:24it's like,
00:53:24well, the
00:53:25status benefits
00:53:26of thinness or
00:53:28fatness are the
00:53:28same when you're
00:53:29going into the
00:53:29dining hall versus
00:53:30coming out and
00:53:31the mate
00:53:31preference is still
00:53:31shifting.
00:53:32I think there's
00:53:32probably some
00:53:33kind of mechanism
00:53:34there.
00:53:34I got fucking
00:53:35ripped on the
00:53:36internet until
00:53:37the guy realized
00:53:38that the clip
00:53:39had been cut
00:53:40both before
00:53:41and after
00:53:41what I actually
00:53:43said about
00:53:44saying I
00:53:45think that
00:53:45Ozempic is
00:53:46more pushed
00:53:49back against by
00:53:50people who are
00:53:51in shape than
00:53:51people who are
00:53:51out of shape
00:53:52because it
00:53:52derogates the
00:53:53signal of I
00:53:55got here
00:53:56naturally and
00:53:57there is a
00:53:57sense that that
00:53:58is somehow
00:53:58superior, that
00:53:59is somehow
00:54:00better.
00:54:02That whole
00:54:03world of when
00:54:05you can manipulate
00:54:06the smoothness
00:54:07of your skin
00:54:08using makeup,
00:54:10face tune or
00:54:11cosmetic surgery
00:54:12when you can
00:54:13get limb
00:54:14lengthening
00:54:14surgery or
00:54:16you can wear
00:54:16boots that
00:54:17have got heels
00:54:18on them.
00:54:18All of my
00:54:18friends wear
00:54:19cowboy boots
00:54:20because it's a
00:54:21two-inch height
00:54:22advantage whilst
00:54:24wearing a cool
00:54:24piece of footwear
00:54:25and in Texas you
00:54:26can get away
00:54:26with it.
00:54:27All of these
00:54:28different ways,
00:54:29this arms race
00:54:30that's permanently
00:54:30going on but
00:54:31what you need
00:54:32to do is
00:54:32actually scrutinize
00:54:34now and maybe
00:54:34this is part of
00:54:35the reason that
00:54:36people are more
00:54:37hypervigilant,
00:54:37that there are
00:54:38more ways to
00:54:38cheat the
00:54:39system to
00:54:40bypass what
00:54:41this signal is
00:54:42supposed to
00:54:43mean.
00:54:44Are you
00:54:45actually in
00:54:46good shape or
00:54:47are you on a
00:54:47lot of TRT?
00:54:48Do you actually
00:54:49have the ability
00:54:50to gain muscle
00:54:51or are you
00:54:52speedrunning that?
00:54:54Are you
00:54:54actually youth
00:54:56fecundity,
00:54:57nulliparity or
00:54:58have you got
00:54:59foot reduction
00:55:00surgery and
00:55:01have you been
00:55:02on, you know
00:55:03what I mean?
00:55:03I found this
00:55:05out a couple
00:55:06of weeks ago,
00:55:06I didn't realize
00:55:06that women's
00:55:07feet grow
00:55:07when they
00:55:09have kids,
00:55:10that women's
00:55:10feet get bigger
00:55:11which is why
00:55:11there's a
00:55:12preference for
00:55:12smaller feet.
00:55:13Did you hear
00:55:13this from
00:55:14Will Costello?
00:55:14Is it true?
00:55:16Well, he's got
00:55:17the sex doll
00:55:17study as well
00:55:18where sex dolls
00:55:19have tiny feet
00:55:20and it's like
00:55:21why would that
00:55:21be?
00:55:21It would even
00:55:22be like
00:55:22unusable feet.
00:55:26It's part of
00:55:27the super
00:55:27stimulus.
00:55:27Yeah, exactly.
00:55:28Fish area and
00:55:29runaway but
00:55:29in reverse.
00:55:31No foot at
00:55:31all.
00:55:32Going back to
00:55:35the sort of
00:55:36inequality thing,
00:55:37what is the
00:55:37state of the
00:55:38gender pay gap
00:55:39in big cities
00:55:40now?
00:55:40Because I saw
00:55:40some data,
00:55:41I've been for a
00:55:42while it was
00:55:4229 that women
00:55:43were out earning
00:55:43men by about
00:55:44a thousand
00:55:44pounds.
00:55:45I think now
00:55:45it's up to
00:55:4631, 32.
00:55:48Does anyone
00:55:48know this?
00:55:49I don't know
00:55:49the exact numbers
00:55:49but I do know
00:55:50that in a lot
00:55:50of cities it's
00:55:51reversed and
00:55:52that young
00:55:53women are earning
00:55:54more than
00:55:54young men.
00:55:55Major metro
00:55:56areas in the
00:55:56US, so New
00:55:58York, D.C.,
00:55:59Boston, L.A.,
00:56:01I think Seattle
00:56:01as well.
00:56:02I don't know
00:56:02the state of
00:56:03Austin but it
00:56:03wouldn't surprise
00:56:04me if Austin
00:56:04showed the same
00:56:05pattern as well.
00:56:06For under
00:56:0730s.
00:56:08I think it's
00:56:09squeaking into
00:56:09the 31s, 32s
00:56:11now and that's
00:56:12what's going to
00:56:13be really
00:56:13interesting.
00:56:14Yeah, maybe
00:56:15you're right and
00:56:16we've managed
00:56:16to, preference
00:56:19for resourceful
00:56:19partners has
00:56:20reduced as
00:56:22women have
00:56:22gotten richer.
00:56:23There were
00:56:23some studies a
00:56:24little while
00:56:24ago, Vincent
00:56:25Haranam put
00:56:26this one out
00:56:27in his
00:56:28article from
00:56:30six years ago
00:56:30that suggested
00:56:31that very
00:56:33high-powered
00:56:33career women
00:56:34had an
00:56:35increased
00:56:35preference for
00:56:36more high-powered
00:56:37men.
00:56:38So ambitious
00:56:39people desire
00:56:40more ambitious
00:56:40partners,
00:56:41specifically
00:56:42women to
00:56:42men.
00:56:43The effect
00:56:45didn't reverse.
00:56:46But it
00:56:47seems that what
00:56:47you're suggesting
00:56:48here, maybe
00:56:49for the middle
00:56:50bit of the
00:56:51bell curve,
00:56:52perhaps when
00:56:52you get to
00:56:52the top 10%
00:56:54of hyper-ambitious
00:56:55people,
00:56:56that somehow
00:56:57flips because
00:56:58they've warped
00:57:00so much of
00:57:00their sense
00:57:00of self-worth
00:57:01around ambition
00:57:02that inevitably
00:57:03it's going to
00:57:04bleed into what
00:57:04they find
00:57:05sexually attractive
00:57:05to or the
00:57:06desirable in a
00:57:07partner.
00:57:07Or maybe
00:57:08they're such
00:57:08an outlier
00:57:09that they
00:57:10breach some
00:57:10threshold of
00:57:11being able to
00:57:11talk to the
00:57:12normies about
00:57:13what they're
00:57:13going through.
00:57:13You know
00:57:14what I mean?
00:57:14Like an elite
00:57:15athlete would
00:57:16probably be good
00:57:17if their
00:57:18partner at least
00:57:19understands how
00:57:20the game of
00:57:20American football
00:57:20is played.
00:57:21I think you
00:57:23can take
00:57:23the gender
00:57:25economic
00:57:25inequality
00:57:26findings of
00:57:27ours to
00:57:27the bank
00:57:28because they're
00:57:28consistent with
00:57:29the cross-cultural
00:57:29literature.
00:57:30The income
00:57:31finding is very
00:57:31interesting,
00:57:32but it's
00:57:33matched with
00:57:34the cross-sectional
00:57:36literature on
00:57:37individuals.
00:57:37I don't know
00:57:38what any of
00:57:38this means.
00:57:38Okay.
00:57:40So it is
00:57:41true that
00:57:42higher-income
00:57:43women...
00:57:45So in our
00:57:46experiment,
00:57:47there was a
00:57:47broad...
00:57:49Like they were
00:57:50less interested
00:57:51in mating
00:57:51up economically.
00:57:53So higher-income
00:57:53women, less
00:57:54interest in
00:57:55mating up.
00:57:58But it's
00:58:00true also that
00:58:01in the wild,
00:58:03higher-income
00:58:03women tend
00:58:04to still have
00:58:05strong preferences
00:58:06and resources.
00:58:06I was about to ask about this.
00:58:07Like what you see
00:58:08in the real world
00:58:09is like high-achieving,
00:58:11highly-educated,
00:58:12high-income women
00:58:13tend to marry men
00:58:14who are still doing
00:58:14at least as well
00:58:16as they are.
00:58:17So there's a couple
00:58:17caveats on that
00:58:19broad pattern.
00:58:20One thing that's
00:58:21interesting that comes
00:58:22from the social
00:58:23rule theorists
00:58:23is that they say,
00:58:24well, richer women
00:58:25are qualitatively
00:58:26different from
00:58:27poorer women
00:58:28in that they
00:58:29are different
00:58:31in lots of ways.
00:58:32And so to say,
00:58:33oh, they're different
00:58:33in this way,
00:58:34it's not really
00:58:34controlled.
00:58:35That's part of the
00:58:35reason we did an
00:58:36experiment, by the way.
00:58:37Um, but then also
00:58:39richer women
00:58:41have stronger
00:58:42mate preferences
00:58:42in general.
00:58:43Like in Koyoma's
00:58:44research,
00:58:45in Lou's research,
00:58:46they want
00:58:47hotter guys too.
00:58:48And in fact-
00:58:49What do you think's
00:58:49going on there?
00:58:50Well, I mean,
00:58:53there's an old
00:58:55David Buss study
00:58:55that literally said
00:58:56attractive women
00:58:57want it all.
00:58:58Like that was the
00:58:58title.
00:58:59But rich women
00:58:59also want it all.
00:59:01And I think that
00:59:01part of it is that
00:59:02if you're rich and
00:59:02attractive, you're
00:59:03fucked.
00:59:04People who are good
00:59:05at getting stuff
00:59:06probably are confident
00:59:08in their ability
00:59:08to get stuff.
00:59:09People who are,
00:59:10you know,
00:59:10high achieving.
00:59:11I think that it's
00:59:11very, like my older
00:59:13sister is a successful
00:59:14banker.
00:59:14If she has a
00:59:15preference for a guy
00:59:16who's doing well
00:59:17economically, it's like
00:59:18that's a very realistic
00:59:19preference.
00:59:21Whereas for a woman
00:59:22who's working at a gas
00:59:22station, that's a very
00:59:23unrealistic mate preference.
00:59:25And then also when you
00:59:26look at the ratios of
00:59:28preference as opposed to
00:59:29just the absolute
00:59:30preference, I do have to
00:59:31kind of tip my hat to
00:59:33the social role people a
00:59:34little bit on that,
00:59:35where it's like, it does
00:59:36seem that even though
00:59:37richer women have a
00:59:37stronger mate preference
00:59:38for resources, they
00:59:40have a lower relative
00:59:42mate preference for
00:59:43resources in lose data,
00:59:44for example.
00:59:45So it's like, I want,
00:59:48so it's like you talk
00:59:49to, I'll put it in a
00:59:50kind of imaginary
00:59:52example.
00:59:52It's like you talk to a
00:59:53poor woman, exemplary
00:59:54poor woman, and she
00:59:55says, you know, I kind
00:59:56of want a rich guy and
00:59:57I kind of want a hot
00:59:58guy.
00:59:59And then you talk to
01:00:00an exemplary rich woman
01:00:01and it's like, I really
01:00:02want a rich guy.
01:00:03And you say, oh, it
01:00:04doesn't match the thing.
01:00:05But then they say, but
01:00:05I really, really want a
01:00:07hot guy.
01:00:07And I also really want a
01:00:08guy who's going to
01:00:09take care of the
01:00:09kids.
01:00:10And I also want a guy
01:00:11who shares my same
01:00:11political beliefs.
01:00:13And it's like, oh, man.
01:00:13So they just have
01:00:14higher standards across
01:00:15the board.
01:00:16And as a relative
01:00:16preference, it seems to
01:00:18decline.
01:00:19Also, I would say that
01:00:20there's the...
01:00:20That sounds like it
01:00:21increases, not
01:00:22declines.
01:00:22So it increases
01:00:23absolutely, but then
01:00:24maybe decreases
01:00:25relatively.
01:00:26So it's like...
01:00:26Like the rank
01:00:27ordering.
01:00:27Yeah.
01:00:28So it's like if I...
01:00:29They're maybe able
01:00:30to relax that
01:00:31preference relatively.
01:00:32Oh, relative to
01:00:33other preferences, but
01:00:34not relative to
01:00:35their own level.
01:00:36Yeah, exactly.
01:00:37That's what I thought.
01:00:38way, though.
01:00:38It doesn't drop away.
01:00:39It doesn't drop away.
01:00:39And I think they used
01:00:40to predict that it
01:00:41would, that it's just
01:00:41there because women are
01:00:43poor.
01:00:43There's a household
01:00:44income that we need to
01:00:45hit, and we can portion
01:00:46this out however we want
01:00:47between the two
01:00:48different partners.
01:00:49In as much as there's a
01:00:50winner on that bickering
01:00:53between the evo-psychs
01:00:54and the social
01:00:55psychologists, the evo-psychs
01:00:57won that one because it
01:00:58was pretty clearly
01:00:58predicted, like, hey,
01:01:00richer women are going
01:01:00to have a reduced
01:01:01mate preference for
01:01:02resources.
01:01:03And then they tested it
01:01:04in a bunch of
01:01:05different ways, and it
01:01:06didn't.
01:01:06But there is some
01:01:07caveats.
01:01:07What's fascinating here
01:01:08is it's just people with
01:01:09high standards have high
01:01:10standards.
01:01:10Yeah.
01:01:11The high standards that
01:01:12got them to be
01:01:13valedictorian, the high
01:01:14standards that got them
01:01:15to get a high-powered
01:01:16degree and then a good
01:01:17career and then to work
01:01:18at it to get promotion
01:01:18and to make it to C-suite
01:01:20or become partner.
01:01:21And then when it came to
01:01:22choosing a partner, they
01:01:23have high standards, high
01:01:24standards, high standards.
01:01:25It's just kind of, it's
01:01:29the sort of thing that
01:01:30your parents would
01:01:31understand.
01:01:31have high standards for
01:01:32themselves and their own
01:01:33future accomplishments than
01:01:35also for a partner.
01:01:35You see this with the
01:01:37research on perfectionism,
01:01:38that perfectionists, it
01:01:40comes in at least two
01:01:42broad buckets, but maybe
01:01:42three, I think, actually.
01:01:44The first one is
01:01:44perfectionism around your
01:01:46own behavior and your
01:01:47own standards.
01:01:48But the other is
01:01:49perfectionism for the
01:01:50people around you's
01:01:51behavior and standards,
01:01:52too.
01:01:52This is one of the
01:01:53problems, that
01:01:54perfectionists have built
01:01:55themselves into a more
01:01:57perfect life.
01:01:58It's not one-to-one,
01:01:59might actually be net
01:01:59negative, but you have
01:02:01pushed yourself unreasonably
01:02:02to raise your standard of
01:02:04living.
01:02:04And then as you become
01:02:06more of an outlier in
01:02:07terms of your
01:02:07perfectionism in your own
01:02:09life, you look for more
01:02:10perfectionism from a
01:02:12higher baseline, which is
01:02:13your new one, in the
01:02:14people around you.
01:02:15And that happens more on
01:02:17average from people that
01:02:18are perfectionists.
01:02:19Yeah, interesting.
01:02:20You might not believe me,
01:02:22but this is what peak
01:02:24sleep optimization looks
01:02:25like.
01:02:26I'm not talking about
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01:02:28just for sex appeal.
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01:02:57breathe better.
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01:02:58has been clinically
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01:03:12the Pod 5 by going to
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01:03:24Another thing I'll say
01:03:25on that is that
01:03:26there is also the
01:03:28caveat of the, I
01:03:29mean, I actually
01:03:30really would love to
01:03:30hear Steve's thoughts
01:03:31on revealed
01:03:32preferences, state
01:03:33adversary.
01:03:33If we can gently
01:03:34steer the conversation,
01:03:35if I can ask the
01:03:36captain of the ship
01:03:37I've actually wanted
01:03:40to hear his
01:03:40opinion, but there
01:03:42is the, there is
01:03:43the, there is a,
01:03:45oh, this is going
01:03:46to be terrible in
01:03:46my head, but there
01:03:48is the revealed
01:03:50element where it's
01:03:51like, if you look at
01:03:52women now today, and
01:03:54this is from the
01:03:54Institute of Family
01:03:55Studies, where they,
01:03:56it's kind of, it's a
01:03:57kind of a way of
01:03:57visualizing the data
01:03:58more than anything,
01:03:59but they bucketed
01:04:00different income
01:04:01brackets.
01:04:02Yeah.
01:04:02And in the top 20%
01:04:04of women, like the
01:04:05top quintile, they
01:04:06are already on
01:04:07average are dating
01:04:09down very slightly
01:04:10economically.
01:04:10The bottom two
01:04:10quintiles of men are
01:04:12doing the same thing.
01:04:13Yeah.
01:04:13They're dating up.
01:04:15So there's this
01:04:16really weird kind of
01:04:17thing there where
01:04:17it's like, you can
01:04:19say in the abstract
01:04:19and, and I'm teeing
01:04:21you up for some
01:04:22thoughts on stated
01:04:23versus revealed, but
01:04:23you can say in the
01:04:24abstract, oh, rich
01:04:25or women, they have
01:04:26a stronger mate
01:04:26preference to mate
01:04:27up, let's say, but
01:04:28then you see what
01:04:29they're doing and
01:04:29it's like, oh,
01:04:30they're less likely
01:04:30to do it.
01:04:31So it's like, what
01:04:31does, what does
01:04:32stronger mean in that
01:04:33context?
01:04:33But they don't
01:04:34necessarily, the
01:04:34fact that they, on
01:04:36average, going with
01:04:39somebody who's
01:04:39somewhat, earning
01:04:40somewhat less than
01:04:41them, isn't
01:04:42necessarily because
01:04:42that's what they
01:04:43prefer.
01:04:44It's what's
01:04:44available.
01:04:45There's not, at
01:04:46those kind of
01:04:46echelons, there's
01:04:47just not much
01:04:48available at all.
01:04:49Tall girl
01:04:50problem.
01:04:50Tall girl
01:04:51problem.
01:04:51So if there's a
01:04:53shortage of tall
01:04:54men, then you'll
01:04:55settle for a guy
01:04:56who's not as
01:04:56Yeah, like tall
01:04:57women are probably
01:04:57also less likely
01:04:58to.
01:05:00It's not because
01:05:00they prefer shorter
01:05:01men, so I don't
01:05:02think that's
01:05:02revealing a
01:05:02preference
01:05:03necessarily.
01:05:04Well, what
01:05:04about the, what
01:05:05would you, could
01:05:06you, I don't
01:05:07know if you've
01:05:07been following
01:05:08Paul Eastwick's
01:05:09work on stated
01:05:10versus revealed
01:05:10preferences.
01:05:11I've been, you
01:05:12know, I've been
01:05:12reading a lot of
01:05:13his scientific
01:05:14work.
01:05:14I haven't read
01:05:15his book yet, but
01:05:17I would love a
01:05:17rejoinder to his,
01:05:19so he makes the
01:05:19claim that
01:05:20essentially, I'll
01:05:21summarize it and
01:05:22then maybe you
01:05:22can tell me what
01:05:23you think about
01:05:23it, but he makes
01:05:24the claim that
01:05:25yes, in survey
01:05:27data, you see
01:05:28these consistent
01:05:29sex differences in
01:05:30what men and
01:05:31women want, but
01:05:32when you measure
01:05:33it through speed
01:05:34dating or through
01:05:35how these stated
01:05:36preferences predict
01:05:37romantic evaluations
01:05:38of partners, well
01:05:39then women care a
01:05:41lot more about
01:05:41looks than they
01:05:42say, and men
01:05:43care a little more
01:05:44about resources
01:05:44than they say,
01:05:45such that there's
01:05:46essentially no
01:05:46sex difference.
01:05:47And I think I
01:05:48even saw an
01:05:49excerpt from his
01:05:49book where he
01:05:50says, well, how
01:05:50could these sex
01:05:52differences and
01:05:53preferences have
01:05:54evolved if they
01:05:56don't result in
01:05:57behavior, if they're
01:05:58just resulting in
01:05:59survey items?
01:06:00Now, I don't
01:06:01necessarily buy that
01:06:02kind of, I buy
01:06:03his data, I don't
01:06:04necessarily buy the
01:06:04follow-up part of
01:06:05the argument, but
01:06:06I'd love to hear
01:06:07what's your, with
01:06:08your billion years
01:06:08of sex differences
01:06:09background, what's
01:06:10the rejoinder?
01:06:11Well, first of all,
01:06:11let me say I
01:06:12think he's a great
01:06:13scholar.
01:06:13I don't agree with
01:06:14him on this, but
01:06:15I do think he's a
01:06:16very good scholar and
01:06:16he's worth taking
01:06:17seriously and reading
01:06:18his work.
01:06:19So I think he
01:06:21seems to be, he
01:06:22seems to focus a lot
01:06:22on the two lines of
01:06:23evidence that don't
01:06:25show sex differences
01:06:26in mate preferences
01:06:28and exclude pretty
01:06:30much everything else.
01:06:31So one thing he
01:06:32focuses on the
01:06:32speed dating data
01:06:33that he's
01:06:33personally done and
01:06:36often doesn't find
01:06:37the differences that
01:06:37you might expect.
01:06:38I'm not sure if it's
01:06:39representative samples
01:06:42for a start, like a
01:06:43lot of the studies
01:06:43that he's done have
01:06:45been university
01:06:46students, all of
01:06:47whom are quite
01:06:47possibly, I mean,
01:06:49presumably do have
01:06:50pretty good career
01:06:50prospects.
01:06:51So there's not going
01:06:52to be a huge amount
01:06:52of variance there
01:06:53necessarily.
01:06:55In a speed dating
01:06:55context, you don't
01:06:56get to know somebody
01:06:57particularly well, so
01:06:59their looks are
01:07:00going to be a large
01:07:01part of what shapes
01:07:03your assessment of
01:07:04them.
01:07:05He points out that
01:07:06a lot of the data
01:07:07that evolutionary
01:07:08psychologists look at
01:07:09dating app data, for
01:07:12instance, is
01:07:13evolutionarily novel.
01:07:15It's not a speed
01:07:15dating, it's an
01:07:16evolutionary novelty,
01:07:17it's nothing like
01:07:18what happens in
01:07:18reality.
01:07:20But he's happy there
01:07:21because you don't
01:07:22find the differences
01:07:23that you expect to
01:07:24find.
01:07:25So he focuses on
01:07:26that, and actually
01:07:26there is some speed
01:07:28dating research that
01:07:29does show some of
01:07:30the standard
01:07:30differences.
01:07:32Rob Kurzman, I
01:07:33think, did one
01:07:33study that did
01:07:34find it.
01:07:35So it's mixed
01:07:35rather than
01:07:36showing no effect
01:07:37at all of the
01:07:38standard evolutionarily
01:07:40psychology predictor
01:07:42stuff.
01:07:43With the revealed
01:07:44preferences, I think
01:07:46that, well, I
01:07:50don't know, it's
01:07:51also, I'm a bit
01:07:52dubious about it,
01:07:53partly just because
01:07:54it goes against
01:07:55the 90% of other,
01:07:57or 95% of other
01:07:58research, including
01:07:59real-world data
01:07:59that does find
01:08:01directions affecting
01:08:03effects in the
01:08:03direction you'd
01:08:04expect.
01:08:05Women are more
01:08:05likely than men
01:08:06to leave a guy
01:08:07who is unemployed,
01:08:08who becomes
01:08:09unemployed, or
01:08:10fails to earn a
01:08:12decent living.
01:08:14And actually,
01:08:14that's one reason
01:08:16that the revealed
01:08:17preferences data
01:08:18might not be
01:08:19accurate, is that
01:08:20when you're looking
01:08:20at how important
01:08:22it is in a
01:08:22relationship that
01:08:23the guy is
01:08:24earning quite a
01:08:24bit among
01:08:25current couples,
01:08:27those are current
01:08:28couples, and there's
01:08:28going to be a bunch
01:08:29of couples
01:08:30partnerships that
01:08:32have dissolved
01:08:32already.
01:08:33Oh, you've got to
01:08:34catch them as they
01:08:34lose their job.
01:08:35Yeah, before they
01:08:36do, exactly.
01:08:37And so you're just
01:08:37looking at the
01:08:38subset that remains
01:08:39after those kind of
01:08:41processes have
01:08:41happened.
01:08:42So you're going to
01:08:43have reduced
01:08:43variance in terms of
01:08:45ability to make a
01:08:45living and earn a
01:08:46good wage.
01:08:47And reduced
01:08:48variance, therefore,
01:08:48means that the
01:08:49correlation is going
01:08:50to be weaker, and
01:08:51other things are
01:08:51going to become
01:08:53more important,
01:08:54seemingly more
01:08:54important.
01:08:55But maybe that's
01:08:56the problem with the
01:08:56data rather than
01:08:57the fact that
01:08:57women actually
01:08:58don't care more
01:08:59about that, after
01:09:00all, than men.
01:09:01Did you see the
01:09:03worldwide preference
01:09:04matching paper?
01:09:05I think I did,
01:09:06yeah.
01:09:06Yeah.
01:09:07Yeah, last year,
01:09:08right?
01:09:08Yeah, so that was
01:09:09one to kind of
01:09:10remind people.
01:09:11I know that you
01:09:11spoke to Eastwick
01:09:12about it on the
01:09:13show, so people
01:09:13may already know.
01:09:14It was the first
01:09:15episode that I did
01:09:15with you.
01:09:16Yeah, so it was
01:09:17basically he had
01:09:19people, and I'm
01:09:20summarizing someone
01:09:20else's work, so
01:09:21there's a chance I
01:09:22make an egregious
01:09:23error.
01:09:23We're not around
01:09:23academics yet.
01:09:26Direction.
01:09:26Directionally correct.
01:09:27So the directionally
01:09:28correct summary is
01:09:29that he had people
01:09:30assess their romantic
01:09:31partners on various
01:09:32traits, and then
01:09:34saw how much those
01:09:35assessments correlated
01:09:36with their overall
01:09:37romantic evaluations
01:09:39of them, and in
01:09:40that he found no
01:09:41sex difference.
01:09:42And he also found
01:09:43some weird findings,
01:09:45like the number one
01:09:46thing people wanted
01:09:47by that measure was
01:09:48someone good in bed.
01:09:49Good in bed.
01:09:50Yeah, so the overall
01:09:51romantic evaluation
01:09:52was most, which is
01:09:54intuitive, but-
01:09:55It's very difficult
01:09:56to separate that out
01:09:58from the fact that
01:09:58you're in a
01:09:59relationship with
01:09:59someone and needing
01:10:00to be physically
01:10:01intimate with them
01:10:02regularly.
01:10:03Like, almost all
01:10:04sex, for all the
01:10:05myth of the chad and
01:10:06the fucking girls being
01:10:07ran through and guys
01:10:08are man whores and
01:10:09all the rest of it,
01:10:10almost all sex, the
01:10:12whole fucking galaxy of
01:10:13sex occurs in
01:10:14relationships, and then
01:10:15there's one brown
01:10:17dwarf star on the
01:10:19outside that's casual
01:10:20sex.
01:10:20from a, like, portioning
01:10:23the sex across-
01:10:24This exoplanet.
01:10:24Yeah, it is.
01:10:25Am I wrong?
01:10:26That everyone on the
01:10:26other planets is looking
01:10:27at-
01:10:27It's almost all sex
01:10:28occurs inside of
01:10:29relationships, right?
01:10:30Like, the global
01:10:31amount of sex that
01:10:32happens.
01:10:33In a relationship,
01:10:33yeah.
01:10:33It's almost all inside
01:10:34of one form of
01:10:35relationship or another.
01:10:36Did you see Jake
01:10:37Kozlowski from Keeper
01:10:39AI put up the ask men
01:10:42if they'd marry down
01:10:42on three axes?
01:10:44I think I DM him
01:10:45every time he tweets
01:10:46out new AI.
01:10:47I'm like, can I get
01:10:48another look at that?
01:10:49Jake's got the
01:10:51possibility to be a
01:10:52really fascinating
01:10:53source of stated
01:10:56preferences with real
01:10:59world results, real
01:11:00world incentives.
01:11:01So for the people
01:11:02that don't know,
01:11:02Keeper AI is an AI
01:11:03matchmaking service.
01:11:04It's 50 grand.
01:11:05The guy pays, the
01:11:07women don't.
01:11:08It's five grand per
01:11:09date for the first,
01:11:10for each date for the
01:11:11guy.
01:11:12On top of the 50.
01:11:13It's credited against
01:11:14it, but it's only
01:11:14credited against it up
01:11:15to the first five.
01:11:16So if you have like
01:11:1710 dates in order to
01:11:18get there, then you
01:11:19pay 75.
01:11:20Anyway, they have a
01:11:22pretty comprehensive
01:11:24psychometric evaluation,
01:11:26personality testing, all
01:11:28of these sorts of
01:11:28things.
01:11:29Pull up the Keeper AI
01:11:30website, Jared.
01:11:31It's kind of fun.
01:11:33And anyway, because he's
01:11:34got this raw data and
01:11:35he's happy to aggregate
01:11:36it and presumably the
01:11:37terms and conditions
01:11:38just say like, hey,
01:11:39fucking open this sucker
01:11:40up.
01:11:41Asked if they'd marry
01:11:41down on three axes.
01:11:43Women say no far more
01:11:45than men every time.
01:11:46Earns less.
01:11:47Women are 12 more
01:11:48likely, 12 times
01:11:49more likely to
01:11:49refuse, less
01:11:50intelligent, six
01:11:51times more, less
01:11:52educated, four times
01:11:52more.
01:11:53Marrying down is a
01:11:54near deal breaker for
01:11:55women and a non-issue
01:11:55for men, consistent
01:11:56across all three.
01:11:58Right?
01:11:58So especially when you
01:12:00bundle those together,
01:12:01like that is a real
01:12:02fucking covariate
01:12:03bastard, but a
01:12:06multivariate bastard.
01:12:07What I realized,
01:12:08thinking about
01:12:09Eastwick stuff, if
01:12:11you're in a world
01:12:11where the new
01:12:12ecology involves this
01:12:14ability to sterile,
01:12:16artistically design
01:12:17what it is that
01:12:18you want, like
01:12:19stated preferences
01:12:21become revealed
01:12:22preferences.
01:12:23Does this make,
01:12:24am I insane?
01:12:24No, it makes sense
01:12:25and what's funny is
01:12:25that I actually
01:12:26DM'd Jake that
01:12:27exact point where
01:12:29it's like,
01:12:29don't fuck with
01:12:31me, dude.
01:12:32I'm on the
01:12:33fucking level of
01:12:33the academics.
01:12:35All day.
01:12:36I'm on fire today.
01:12:37One and a half
01:12:38newtonics.
01:12:38Don't fuck with me.
01:12:40You've been
01:12:40anticipating a lot
01:12:41of things.
01:12:42And it's
01:12:43interesting because
01:12:44it's not, I
01:12:46don't really think it
01:12:46is a stated
01:12:47preference in the
01:12:47traditional sense
01:12:48because it's a
01:12:49stated preference
01:12:49with consequence.
01:12:50And if you
01:12:50actually look at
01:12:51the tradition.
01:12:51Proper incentive.
01:12:52Yeah, so I'm
01:12:52very interested in
01:12:53stated versus
01:12:54revealed preferences.
01:12:54I'm very interested
01:12:55in which people
01:12:56assigned to what.
01:12:57And there's
01:12:58actually precedent
01:12:58for the scholarly
01:12:59precedent where
01:13:00in Bus and
01:13:02Schmidt's Make
01:13:03Preferences and
01:13:03Behavioral
01:13:04Manifestations,
01:13:05I think that
01:13:06they had
01:13:06classified ads
01:13:08as a behavioral
01:13:11manifestation,
01:13:12essentially, where
01:13:12it's like, it's
01:13:13not like an
01:13:14expression, but
01:13:15like what people
01:13:16are actually
01:13:17shopping for.
01:13:17Skin in the
01:13:18game.
01:13:18And so that's,
01:13:18yeah, exactly.
01:13:19So it's like,
01:13:19if I tell my
01:13:20matchmaker,
01:13:21can I please
01:13:22have a young
01:13:23wife, that's
01:13:24more than just
01:13:25a statement.
01:13:26It's a reveal.
01:13:26That's an action,
01:13:27yeah, in a way.
01:13:28But I don't
01:13:29know.
01:13:29Is this a
01:13:30unique, is
01:13:30because a
01:13:30matchmaking, I
01:13:31guess, arranged
01:13:33marriages are a
01:13:33kind of matchmaking,
01:13:34but they're not
01:13:35done with, hey,
01:13:35here's my fucking
01:13:36list of requirements
01:13:37type thing.
01:13:38Is this a new
01:13:38category that's
01:13:39somewhere in
01:13:40between stated and
01:13:40revealed preferences
01:13:41when you look at
01:13:42something like
01:13:43Keeper AI and
01:13:44you go in with
01:13:46your preferred
01:13:46list of things?
01:13:48Is it stated?
01:13:49Is it revealed?
01:13:49What is it?
01:13:50Converting your
01:13:50stated preference
01:13:51into a revealed
01:13:52preference by going
01:13:53out of the world
01:13:54and making it
01:13:54happen and putting
01:13:57skin in the game
01:13:57to do so?
01:13:58It feels closer
01:13:59to stated.
01:13:59I mean, revealed
01:14:00would be because
01:14:00you can be my
01:14:02coach or whatever,
01:14:03the matchmaker,
01:14:04and I can give you
01:14:04the list and then
01:14:05you show me
01:14:05someone and I
01:14:06can still choose.
01:14:06Actually, I may
01:14:07give you this list,
01:14:08but then I meet
01:14:08this person and
01:14:09this actually
01:14:09isn't what I
01:14:09want.
01:14:10Let me scratch
01:14:10these two things
01:14:11off the list and
01:14:11add this other
01:14:12thing and then
01:14:12go that direction.
01:14:13So it still
01:14:14feels more stated.
01:14:15Two slamming lines
01:14:17I've seen recently,
01:14:18one from Jake that
01:14:19says, being good
01:14:19at dating apps is
01:14:20mostly orthogonal to
01:14:21being a good spouse.
01:14:24But the people that
01:14:25win on dating apps are
01:14:26actually probably not
01:14:27the people that you
01:14:27want to get into a
01:14:28relationship with.
01:14:29And then Diana
01:14:29Fleischman, female
01:14:30dating strategy tells
01:14:31women to date only
01:14:32men who ask first,
01:14:33text within three
01:14:33days, pay and
01:14:34reliably plan the
01:14:35next date.
01:14:36Sure, this might be a
01:14:36good filter to make
01:14:38sure he's really into
01:14:38you, but it's also a
01:14:39way to select a man
01:14:40who is great at
01:14:41wooing side chicks.
01:14:42Just the ability to
01:14:45play the game.
01:14:46But the Jake one
01:14:47about being good at
01:14:48dating apps is
01:14:48orthogonal to being a
01:14:49good spouse would be
01:14:51a fantastic study to
01:14:53do.
01:14:54How many swipes have
01:14:56you got?
01:14:56How many first dates
01:14:56have you got?
01:14:57It doesn't even
01:14:57matter really about
01:14:58conversions.
01:14:59And then how
01:15:01likely were you to
01:15:01cheat, infidelity,
01:15:03level of relationship
01:15:04satisfaction with your
01:15:05other partners down
01:15:06the line?
01:15:06Like tell me about
01:15:07your online dating
01:15:07era and tell me
01:15:08about your spouse's
01:15:10relationship satisfaction
01:15:11now and the quality
01:15:11of your relationship.
01:15:12Like it might
01:15:13actually be that the
01:15:14traits that make you
01:15:15good on a dating app
01:15:16are opposite, contrary
01:15:20to what make you a
01:15:21good spouse.
01:15:22There was a study a
01:15:23few years ago on
01:15:23Tinder users back
01:15:24when I think Tinder
01:15:25was still the number
01:15:26one dating app in
01:15:26the late 2010s.
01:15:28And this was only on
01:15:30college students and
01:15:31they looked at
01:15:32students who had
01:15:34never used Tinder and
01:15:35students who were
01:15:36currently using Tinder
01:15:37and they looked at
01:15:38the dark triad
01:15:39personality traits and
01:15:40found that the users
01:15:41of Tinder scored a
01:15:42significantly higher,
01:15:44pretty sizable effect
01:15:45sizes, 0.3, 0.4 higher
01:15:48for the Tinder users
01:15:49and the non-Tinder users.
01:15:50So these are more
01:15:51psychopathic, more
01:15:52Machiavellian, more
01:15:52narcissistic.
01:15:54But I didn't say, as I
01:15:55recall, they didn't say
01:15:56anything about sort of
01:15:57were the successful
01:15:58users higher on the
01:16:00dark triad traits
01:16:01than the less
01:16:02successful users.
01:16:04presumably people don't
01:16:06want spouses who are
01:16:07high on dark triad
01:16:08traits, but those are
01:16:11the people who are
01:16:12using these apps.
01:16:13They're more likely to
01:16:14use them.
01:16:15There is plenty of
01:16:16research, I think,
01:16:16though, that shows
01:16:18revealed preferences for
01:16:19some of the traditional
01:16:20Evo site predictions,
01:16:21like the fact that guys
01:16:23who are wealthier are
01:16:24more likely to get
01:16:25married, more likely to
01:16:26stay married, more likely
01:16:27to have kids, more likely
01:16:28to get remarried if they
01:16:30divorce, whereas it
01:16:32doesn't predict that
01:16:32anywhere near as well
01:16:33for women.
01:16:35Women's wages don't.
01:16:37And women's looks are
01:16:39a better predictor of
01:16:40whether they get
01:16:41married and the wealth
01:16:44of their marital
01:16:45partner than is the
01:16:47case for men.
01:16:48Men's looks don't
01:16:49predict that anywhere
01:16:50near as well.
01:16:51And all of that's
01:16:52revealed preferences,
01:16:53right?
01:16:53Did you see that
01:16:54witness study looking
01:16:56at facial
01:16:57attractiveness is 12
01:16:58times more influential
01:17:00on swiping behavior
01:17:01than height?
01:17:02Is facial
01:17:03attractiveness?
01:17:04Yeah.
01:17:04Yeah, so they did.
01:17:05So I tweeted that
01:17:06and someone replied,
01:17:07photo competition app
01:17:09shows photos for the
01:17:10most important factor.
01:17:11And I was like,
01:17:11oh, you did kind of
01:17:12get them there.
01:17:13But it is an
01:17:13interesting study,
01:17:15right?
01:17:15Trying to find some
01:17:16white pills.
01:17:17Yeah, so what they
01:17:17did was they tried to
01:17:19essentially set up
01:17:23a gamified dating
01:17:24app.
01:17:25Importantly, there
01:17:26was no height filters
01:17:27on this app.
01:17:28So that's usually
01:17:29how people see height
01:17:31in a dating app.
01:17:31That's usually how
01:17:32it has in a real
01:17:32dating app.
01:17:33That's usually how
01:17:34it has an influence.
01:17:35And I'd actually be
01:17:35interested in Rob's
01:17:36opinion on whether
01:17:37kind of testing the
01:17:39intuition of whether
01:17:40a height filter is a
01:17:41stated or revealed
01:17:42preference because
01:17:43that's also kind of
01:17:44in between.
01:17:45But yeah, they set up
01:17:46this game and then
01:17:47they and it was it
01:17:47was very sophisticated.
01:17:49I had a lot of
01:17:49people come back to
01:17:50me asking, including
01:17:51really prominent
01:17:52scholars coming back
01:17:53like kind of
01:17:54challenging the study
01:17:55and I had to open
01:17:56the study back up
01:17:56again and check.
01:17:57And I was like,
01:17:58no, they actually
01:17:58thought of that too.
01:17:59And yeah, they found
01:18:00that essentially face
01:18:01was everything and
01:18:04anything else was you
01:18:05could put anything in
01:18:06your bio.
01:18:07You could have any
01:18:08height and it wouldn't
01:18:09really make that much
01:18:10of a difference with
01:18:10the caveat.
01:18:12With the caveat that
01:18:13filtering for height
01:18:14wasn't an option.
01:18:16And then it had a
01:18:17typical dating app
01:18:17interface.
01:18:18So it's like if you're
01:18:19looking at 50 different
01:18:20faces as a participant
01:18:22in the study and it's
01:18:23literally like face,
01:18:24face, face, tiny details,
01:18:25tiny details.
01:18:26There is kind of a
01:18:27click through temptation
01:18:28of like, I mean,
01:18:29this is what happens
01:18:30on real apps though.
01:18:31I mean, it's, it's,
01:18:32it's actually on real
01:18:33apps, people are doing
01:18:34the same thing.
01:18:34So I think it's
01:18:35methodologically, it's
01:18:36very ecologically sound
01:18:37if you want to find
01:18:38out what's happening.
01:18:38Pokemon trading
01:18:39talk time.
01:18:39Yeah, exactly.
01:18:40I wonder if, to your
01:18:41question, I wonder if
01:18:42after the introduction
01:18:43of height filters,
01:18:44did users come away
01:18:46more satisfied or
01:18:47less satisfied or the
01:18:48same compared with
01:18:49prior to the
01:18:50introduction of height
01:18:51filters on the
01:18:52apps?
01:18:52Like, are women
01:18:53happier?
01:18:54Presumably men
01:18:55aren't happier,
01:18:55especially the men
01:18:56who aren't that tall.
01:18:56I've said this before,
01:18:57Tinder released the
01:18:59height filter as a
01:19:00April Fool's about
01:19:02a decade ago and
01:19:03then just as a
01:19:04feature available to
01:19:05premium users like
01:19:07three years ago.
01:19:08And I've heard that
01:19:08six foot mark is
01:19:10like, it's somewhat
01:19:10arbitrary because I
01:19:11read this and I
01:19:12don't know exactly.
01:19:13Guys just lie.
01:19:14Well, guys lie,
01:19:14but then the six foot,
01:19:15it's just because it's
01:19:16a round number and
01:19:17I've heard that in
01:19:18Europe, the number is
01:19:19180 centimeters,
01:19:21which is something like
01:19:215'10 and a half or
01:19:225'11 and they just go
01:19:24180 because it's a
01:19:25nice clean number.
01:19:26You know, if they
01:19:27wanted six feet,
01:19:27they could go 182.5
01:19:29centimeters.
01:19:30And so even the six
01:19:31foot thing is somewhat
01:19:32arbitrary.
01:19:33So what you're saying
01:19:33is that we should
01:19:33change the units of
01:19:34measurement to make
01:19:36more guys six foot.
01:19:38All the short kings
01:19:38got to get on the
01:19:39metric system.
01:19:40So it's going to be
01:19:41scientists, drug
01:19:42dealers, and short
01:19:42kings.
01:19:43You've got to be
01:19:43Europe maxing.
01:19:44If you're not
01:19:44Europe maxing.
01:19:46If you're not
01:19:46metric maxing, dude,
01:19:47what the fuck are you
01:19:48doing?
01:19:48That would really be
01:19:49DEI for men if
01:19:49we could change it to
01:19:50the...
01:19:51Most people don't
01:19:52realize how much being
01:19:53dehydrated impacts their
01:19:55performance, which is
01:19:55why for the last five
01:19:56years, I've started
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01:19:58morning with Element.
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01:20:14It plays a critical
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01:20:39heading to
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01:20:40slash modern
01:20:41wisdom.
01:20:41What about that
01:20:47mate budget study that
01:20:49normally did because
01:20:50that was about trade
01:20:51ops, right?
01:20:51And typically, some
01:20:53people generally have
01:20:55good things that come
01:20:56along with good
01:20:56things, but for the
01:20:57most part, there are
01:20:58some sorts of trade
01:20:59ops.
01:21:01Someone's spent an
01:21:01awful lot of time
01:21:02dedicated on one
01:21:03thing that maybe
01:21:04neglected another part
01:21:04of another area.
01:21:06It's an interesting
01:21:06study there, right?
01:21:07Can you explain for
01:21:08the normies?
01:21:09Sure.
01:21:10The normies?
01:21:11So, yeah, Norm Lee
01:21:14did a study where he
01:21:17gave people a budget
01:21:18of mate dollars and
01:21:19then asked them,
01:21:20create the ideal mate
01:21:22that you can with
01:21:23this budget.
01:21:24Some people got a
01:21:24big budget, and
01:21:25where that was the
01:21:26case, men and
01:21:26women, they both
01:21:27wanted everything.
01:21:29They wanted good
01:21:30looks, they wanted
01:21:31a good job, high
01:21:34status, blah, blah,
01:21:35blah, the works.
01:21:37But if they had a
01:21:38smaller mate budget,
01:21:40which I think is
01:21:40probably more like
01:21:41most people's
01:21:42situation in life,
01:21:43no offense, if they
01:21:45had that, sex
01:21:48differences became
01:21:49more pronounced.
01:21:50And so men would
01:21:52spend more to get
01:21:53an attractive partner,
01:21:55whereas women would
01:21:57spend more to get a
01:21:58partner with resources
01:22:00and status.
01:22:02He also did a study
01:22:04where he had people
01:22:05allocate for
01:22:06themselves, if I'm not
01:22:07mistaken, and it
01:22:08mirrored that same
01:22:11pattern, where it's
01:22:12like when men were
01:22:13kind of RPG-style
01:22:14building their own
01:22:15character, I think it
01:22:16was him, I don't mean
01:22:17to give him credit if
01:22:18it wasn't, but
01:22:19basically men tried to
01:22:21make themselves richer
01:22:22relative to women, and
01:22:23women tried to make
01:22:24themselves prettier
01:22:25relative to men.
01:22:25That's the reason why
01:22:27we don't see women
01:22:27turning up in supercars
01:22:28with expensive Rolexes
01:22:29at a nightclub, or
01:22:31guys spending tons of
01:22:32time doing the
01:22:33beautification thing.
01:22:34We know, we have an
01:22:36intuition about what is
01:22:37effective, it's the
01:22:39failures just continue
01:22:41to stack up in really
01:22:42interesting ways.
01:22:43Well, this is something
01:22:43that we proposed
01:22:44actually in our PNAS
01:22:45paper, in the
01:22:47discussion section, we
01:22:47talked about this, where
01:22:48it's like it is
01:22:49interesting and quite
01:22:50conspicuous, but also
01:22:52quite circumstantial, that
01:22:53over the 1900s, there's
01:22:55pretty good data from
01:22:55David Buss, it's hard to
01:22:57do, it's hard to gather
01:22:58this survey data, but it
01:22:59does seem that over
01:23:00time, throughout the
01:23:021900s, especially in
01:23:04the period after women's
01:23:05kind of financial
01:23:06emancipation, let's
01:23:07call it, mate
01:23:09preferences converged
01:23:10quite a bit between
01:23:11men and women.
01:23:12And then also we're
01:23:13now seeing this
01:23:14tremendous behavioral
01:23:15convergence, where
01:23:16it's like, women aren't
01:23:17doing sports cars and
01:23:19flashy watches, but they
01:23:20do have pretty nice
01:23:21handbags, pretty nice
01:23:22shoes, and they are
01:23:23pretty ritzy in terms
01:23:24of their finances.
01:23:24So yes, but that's
01:23:25only signaling to
01:23:26women.
01:23:26Well, maybe, but men
01:23:29are definitely, even
01:23:30if you say for the
01:23:30women's side that's not
01:23:31true, on the men's
01:23:32side, we see that men
01:23:33have tripled their
01:23:34parenting effort since
01:23:35the 1970s, and male
01:23:38beautification, I know
01:23:39that it's really trendy
01:23:40right now with the
01:23:41whole looks-maxing
01:23:41thing, but this is
01:23:43actually just the
01:23:43newest instantiation of
01:23:45a documented trend going
01:23:46back to the 1990s, you
01:23:48can read the historian
01:23:49Lynn Luciano's work on
01:23:50this, where male
01:23:51beautification has
01:23:52increased decade on
01:23:53decade to a point
01:23:54where basically everyone,
01:23:56even like a normal man
01:23:57who doesn't consider
01:23:58himself like a
01:23:59beautifying person, his
01:24:01daily routine would be
01:24:02unrecognizable to his
01:24:04grandfather.
01:24:04Shave your head, dude.
01:24:06Shave your head, you
01:24:07don't need to think
01:24:07about it.
01:24:07We did a little data
01:24:09analysis on using health
01:24:13data, essentially seeing
01:24:14like how much has
01:24:15weightlifting actually
01:24:16increased, and generation
01:24:17on generation, it's like
01:24:19you go from basically
01:24:20like not a behavior to
01:24:22every young man is now
01:24:24like every other member
01:24:26of Gen Z essentially is
01:24:28like a recreational
01:24:29bodybuilder.
01:24:30Women do find that
01:24:31attractive though, right?
01:24:32They do find some
01:24:34muscularity attractive
01:24:36and good grooming
01:24:38attractive, they find
01:24:39parenting attractive, but
01:24:40I'm not persuaded at
01:24:41all, in fact I don't
01:24:42think it's the case that
01:24:43men think that she's
01:24:44really hot, I love
01:24:45that handbag.
01:24:46I don't think so
01:24:47either, maybe those are
01:24:48a bit cheeky, but I do
01:24:49think that it is, I do
01:24:49think it's conspicuous,
01:24:51and so it's worth
01:24:52pointing out where it's
01:24:53like I don't think that
01:24:55women are necessarily
01:24:56signaling their
01:24:57resources to attract
01:24:58men, but it's
01:24:58interesting that they're
01:24:59signaling resources
01:25:00more over the same
01:25:02time period.
01:25:03And in the male
01:25:03beautification, I would
01:25:04really put my foot down
01:25:05and say no, that is to
01:25:06attract women, and I
01:25:07think it is because they
01:25:08have their own money.
01:25:09Right, okay, so this is
01:25:10your pet theory, right,
01:25:11that because the
01:25:13socioeconomic imbalance
01:25:15between men and women
01:25:16has been reduced or
01:25:17even reversed, men
01:25:19need to find a
01:25:20different way, they
01:25:21need to compete on
01:25:22another domain of
01:25:23attractiveness, and
01:25:24that has been
01:25:25self-beautification,
01:25:26I'm going to make
01:25:26myself look nicer.
01:25:28Beauty is the
01:25:29flashy one, parenting
01:25:31is the quiet one
01:25:32that's actually better
01:25:33evidenced, where it's
01:25:34like men used to-
01:25:34Dad, not chat.
01:25:35Yeah, exactly, where
01:25:36it's like, and we see
01:25:37this even in Lee's
01:25:402015 study, where it
01:25:42does seem that when
01:25:43women have their own
01:25:44money, they recognize
01:25:46where it's like, well,
01:25:46I have the financial
01:25:47thing kind of sorted,
01:25:48I really need like a
01:25:49helper at the nest a
01:25:50little bit more, and
01:25:51that's been the
01:25:52preference shift, and
01:25:54men have definitely
01:25:54responded to that.
01:25:55I mean, men have
01:25:56tripled their-
01:25:56a man today spends
01:25:58more time with
01:25:58children, I believe, I
01:25:59think I heard this
01:26:00from you, that it was
01:26:01than women did in the
01:26:021950s.
01:26:02There's a dramatic
01:26:03difference, though, at
01:26:04least in the U.S.
01:26:05context, I've read that
01:26:06this differs by
01:26:07socioeconomic status and
01:26:09education, where
01:26:09educated, upper-middle
01:26:11class men are spending
01:26:12far more time with
01:26:14their children than
01:26:15fathers in the past,
01:26:16whereas non-college
01:26:18men are spending the
01:26:19same amount as
01:26:20decades past, or even
01:26:21slightly less.
01:26:22And the average is
01:26:23getting brought up
01:26:23primarily by college
01:26:25educated men.
01:26:26Although those women
01:26:27don't necessarily have
01:26:28as much money.
01:26:29Yeah.
01:26:30But then the men are
01:26:32also spending less.
01:26:33It's part of it,
01:26:34though, just that
01:26:34people, guys are
01:26:36thinking it's only
01:26:36fair.
01:26:37They're responding to
01:26:38arguments that have
01:26:39been made by feminists
01:26:41and others, just that
01:26:42guys haven't been
01:26:43pulling their weight in
01:26:44the past, and they
01:26:45think that they
01:26:45should.
01:26:46To a degree, on this
01:26:48handbag point, I
01:26:49think I heard this from
01:26:49Tonya Reynolds that
01:26:51she suggested that
01:26:53it's not that men
01:26:55obviously aren't
01:26:55attracted to these
01:26:57luxurious handbags.
01:26:58And in some cases,
01:27:00women, they're buying
01:27:01these handbags or
01:27:02wearing them to
01:27:03impress women.
01:27:03I know what you're
01:27:04going to say.
01:27:04But it's about
01:27:05deterring.
01:27:06Deterring rivals.
01:27:06Look at how much my
01:27:08husband is in the
01:27:09hole for this stupid
01:27:11bag that he doesn't
01:27:13understand what it
01:27:13is, none of his
01:27:14friends understand what
01:27:15it is, I'm not even
01:27:16doing it for other
01:27:17guys.
01:27:18It's not my boobs,
01:27:19right?
01:27:19Which would be the
01:27:20sort of thing that
01:27:21wouldn't be a deterrent.
01:27:22It would actually
01:27:22probably be the cause
01:27:23of ire from other
01:27:24women.
01:27:25Whereas, women would
01:27:29compliment handbags
01:27:30more than they would
01:27:30compliment boobs.
01:27:31Yes.
01:27:32Yeah, yeah.
01:27:32100%.
01:27:32And so if you
01:27:33imagine that we're
01:27:34in an environment of
01:27:35increasing mate
01:27:36competition, fewer
01:27:37and fewer
01:27:38attractive men.
01:27:38Big engagement ring.
01:27:39Why the massive
01:27:39engagement?
01:27:40Look at how much
01:27:41he's in the hole.
01:27:42For me.
01:27:42So ultimately,
01:27:43still comes back
01:27:43to mating.
01:27:44But what's the
01:27:44benefit, though, of
01:27:46intimidating other
01:27:46women and saying,
01:27:47look at this great
01:27:48handbag.
01:27:48To keep them away from
01:27:49the partner.
01:27:50If guys don't care
01:27:51about it, why would
01:27:52other women think,
01:27:53well, I better stay
01:27:53away because I don't
01:27:54have as nice a
01:27:55handbag.
01:27:56Well, if he's so
01:27:58invested in her that
01:27:58he spent 20 grand on
01:27:59a handbag, then it's
01:28:00probably not worth my
01:28:01time to poach him or
01:28:02to attempt to poach
01:28:03him.
01:28:03I see.
01:28:04So it could be mate poaching
01:28:05deterrents.
01:28:06It could also be just
01:28:07kind of classic high
01:28:08status to low status
01:28:09threat behavior.
01:28:11I remember literally
01:28:11the first day of my
01:28:12PhD, arrived in
01:28:13Melbourne and went
01:28:15for a walk with
01:28:16Candice and I asked
01:28:17her this exact
01:28:17question.
01:28:17I was just like,
01:28:18why do you think
01:28:19women love their
01:28:20handbags?
01:28:20Because I knew that
01:28:21she was really into
01:28:21beautification stuff and
01:28:22that she really had her
01:28:23head around those
01:28:23things.
01:28:24And she just
01:28:24immediately said to
01:28:25scare young women.
01:28:25Just immediately.
01:28:26Scare young women.
01:28:27And so I was like,
01:28:29okay, interesting.
01:28:30And I do think that it
01:28:31is, I feel like I've
01:28:34since then maybe tried
01:28:35to observe it as like
01:28:36a second order thing.
01:28:37And I think it's kind
01:28:38of maybe the male
01:28:39equivalent of like a
01:28:40guy who's really jacked
01:28:41walking into the room
01:28:42when a woman walks in
01:28:43and she's very
01:28:43glamorous.
01:28:44She's got the
01:28:44expensive shoes, the
01:28:45expensive bags, throws
01:28:46it on the table.
01:28:47It's like, I run this
01:28:50shit.
01:28:50It's kind of like that
01:28:51atmosphere.
01:28:51But there's also a
01:28:52sense, at least with
01:28:53guys, guys that have
01:28:54got a ton of muscle
01:28:55on them, you have to
01:28:57have spare time.
01:28:58You have to have
01:28:59spare time.
01:29:00You have to have
01:29:00spare money to be able
01:29:01to afford the food
01:29:01and the PEDs.
01:29:03You need to be at
01:29:05least somewhat
01:29:05disciplined.
01:29:06You need to have the
01:29:06time to be able to
01:29:07plan your training
01:29:08sessions and, you
01:29:09know, not be at
01:29:10work every single
01:29:10hour of the day in
01:29:11the same way as the
01:29:12long nails that a
01:29:13woman might have and
01:29:14the well-done hair
01:29:14and the good beauty
01:29:15regime is costly in
01:29:17terms of time.
01:29:18And that indicates an
01:29:19awful lot more about
01:29:20lifestyle than just
01:29:21resources do.
01:29:21But I totally didn't
01:29:22think about the fact
01:29:23that guys going to
01:29:24the gym is a form
01:29:25of male
01:29:25beautification.
01:29:26If you class that
01:29:27in, which I just
01:29:28like totally did not
01:29:30consider, if you add
01:29:31in guys going to the
01:29:32gym as a form of
01:29:33male beautification,
01:29:34it's got to be 4x,
01:29:365x, 6x, 10x, what
01:29:39it would have been a
01:29:39hundred years ago for
01:29:40male beautification.
01:29:40Yeah, I mean that's what
01:29:41the best, that's what
01:29:42the best study on
01:29:42beautification did, it's
01:29:44Marta Kowal's study.
01:29:46And she found that in
01:29:47all except for seven
01:29:48countries, women
01:29:49beautified more.
01:29:50There were seven that
01:29:51men beautified more,
01:29:53slightly.
01:29:55And this was the
01:29:58weightlifting side of it
01:29:59essentially was the
01:30:01behavior where men
01:30:02were...
01:30:03It's a big Pac-Man
01:30:04chunk that's been taken
01:30:04out of the side.
01:30:05Yeah, it is.
01:30:06And some might say,
01:30:08oh, well, a lot of men
01:30:08beautify...
01:30:09A lot of men hit the
01:30:10gym, sorry, for health,
01:30:12not beautification.
01:30:13And some of them do it
01:30:14for status competitions.
01:30:15They actually...
01:30:16But they thought of
01:30:16that.
01:30:17They had a question in
01:30:17there that it's like,
01:30:19okay, doing it for
01:30:20beauty though, basically,
01:30:21how much time are you
01:30:22spending...
01:30:22Like bodybuilding.
01:30:23And so they really were
01:30:25able to drill down on
01:30:26that.
01:30:27And there was one other
01:30:28behavior, this is so
01:30:29counterintuitive, where
01:30:31among the people who
01:30:32did it, men actually
01:30:35did this behavior more.
01:30:36So think about
01:30:37different beautification
01:30:37behaviors.
01:30:38I won't bore you by
01:30:40making you guess, but
01:30:41it was makeup.
01:30:42Among people who wear
01:30:44makeup, the men who
01:30:45wear makeup spend way
01:30:46more time on it than
01:30:47the women.
01:30:48Just because they're
01:30:49less good at it?
01:30:50They've been growing
01:30:51up on YouTube
01:30:52tutorials.
01:30:52I think that it's...
01:30:54What she said to me
01:30:54was that she thinks
01:30:55that it's essentially
01:30:56men who wear makeup
01:30:59have some kind of
01:30:59special qualitative
01:31:00difference.
01:31:01Maybe it's that
01:31:01they're like a sense...
01:31:02I told her, look,
01:31:03you're picking up on
01:31:04male beauty influencers
01:31:05essentially.
01:31:05Like who is...
01:31:06And so they just
01:31:07have different...
01:31:07It's going to be a
01:31:07small pool.
01:31:08Yeah.
01:31:09But I thought that
01:31:09was interesting is
01:31:10that in terms of
01:31:12numbers...
01:31:13It's just James
01:31:13Charles on repeat.
01:31:14Yeah, it's just
01:31:14James Charles clocking
01:31:16in 16 hours a day
01:31:17and causing the
01:31:18difference.
01:31:18But it was interesting.
01:31:19So it was basically,
01:31:20yeah, there was this...
01:31:21The second biggest
01:31:22difference technically
01:31:23was the weightlifting.
01:31:24The biggest was the
01:31:25makeup, but it was
01:31:26because of that
01:31:26effect.
01:31:27Going back to the
01:31:27clavicular thing,
01:31:28it's kind of
01:31:29fascinating the
01:31:30weightlifting being
01:31:31the biggest change
01:31:32because I don't know
01:31:33whether guys increasing
01:31:35their upper body
01:31:36strength makes a
01:31:38bigger impact on
01:31:40attractiveness or
01:31:40formidability.
01:31:41Like if you were to
01:31:42just to rank it,
01:31:42starting at a baseline
01:31:43of this and you do,
01:31:45you gain 10 pounds
01:31:46of lean muscle mass,
01:31:48are you more
01:31:49attractive or more
01:31:50more formidable
01:31:51to other guys?
01:31:53that would be
01:31:53fascinating to work
01:31:54out because I don't
01:31:55know what the net
01:31:55gain is.
01:31:56And obviously you get
01:31:56both and that's
01:31:57what's great.
01:31:58But certainly when we
01:31:59look at sort of the
01:32:00myth of Chad and
01:32:02Louis Theroux's
01:32:03documentary and sort
01:32:04of the caricature of
01:32:05hyper-masculinity at
01:32:06the moment, a lot of
01:32:07what guys are doing,
01:32:08it's the male-to-male
01:32:09transsexual, as
01:32:10Mary Harrington calls
01:32:11it.
01:32:11It's like the most
01:32:12caricatured parts of
01:32:13the masculine look
01:32:15to the point where
01:32:16that hyper-masculinized
01:32:17face we know from
01:32:18tons and tons of
01:32:19data is not as
01:32:20attractive as a
01:32:21average or slightly
01:32:23feminized face on a
01:32:24man is to women.
01:32:26And all of these
01:32:28other things to me
01:32:29seem to be just
01:32:30signaling formidability,
01:32:32signaling status and
01:32:33formidability to
01:32:34other men.
01:32:35It's the handbag of
01:32:36the face.
01:32:37So the David Putz
01:32:38work would suggest
01:32:39it's more about
01:32:40formidability or
01:32:41rather the increase
01:32:42in formidability
01:32:43would outpace the
01:32:44increase in
01:32:44I mean we've
01:32:45dropped it on the
01:32:46show like 10
01:32:46times but it's the
01:32:47fucking, it is
01:32:48the best.
01:32:51Do you know it?
01:32:51Yeah, I can do it.
01:32:54So David Putz and
01:32:55his colleagues
01:32:56famously did this
01:32:57study where they
01:32:59brought in a group
01:33:01of men and
01:33:02recorded them in
01:33:03these videos and
01:33:05very, very short
01:33:06clips and then
01:33:07they brought in a
01:33:08different group of
01:33:08men to watch the
01:33:09men in these
01:33:10videos and then
01:33:12they asked these
01:33:13men who were
01:33:13watching these
01:33:14other men in the
01:33:14clip, they asked
01:33:16them a question
01:33:16which is how
01:33:17likely is it that
01:33:18this man that
01:33:19you're watching in
01:33:19this clip could
01:33:20beat a man in
01:33:21a physical fight
01:33:23and it was
01:33:24arranged from
01:33:24very likely to
01:33:25very unlikely
01:33:26and then they
01:33:27showed a group
01:33:29of women these
01:33:30videos as well of
01:33:31these men in
01:33:31these short
01:33:32clips and they
01:33:32asked these
01:33:33women, okay,
01:33:33this man in
01:33:34this video, how
01:33:35sexually attractive
01:33:36is this man?
01:33:38And then these
01:33:39researchers followed
01:33:40up with those
01:33:41men in the
01:33:42videos 18 months
01:33:43later and
01:33:44collected data on
01:33:46them including
01:33:46how many sexual
01:33:47partners they'd
01:33:48had over the
01:33:49previous 18 months
01:33:50and they found
01:33:52that how
01:33:53formidable they
01:33:53were predicted
01:33:55how many sexual
01:33:56partners they had
01:33:57whereas how
01:33:58sexually attractive
01:33:59they were to
01:33:59these women had
01:34:01no relationship
01:34:01at all.
01:34:02So formidability
01:34:03most fucking
01:34:04insane study.
01:34:06Now as we
01:34:07mentioned this
01:34:08was on college
01:34:11students, fraternity
01:34:12members.
01:34:14It was like a
01:34:15specific frat
01:34:16wasn't it?
01:34:16Oh was it?
01:34:17I think so,
01:34:17I'm not sure.
01:34:18Okay.
01:34:19But this is
01:34:20consistent with
01:34:21David Putz's
01:34:21other work showing
01:34:22that formidability
01:34:23seems to have this
01:34:24huge effect on
01:34:25sexual success.
01:34:26This is my take
01:34:27on clavicular
01:34:28and the
01:34:29luxmaxing world
01:34:30that they have
01:34:31closed their eyes
01:34:32thrown the dart
01:34:33and hit the
01:34:33bullseye if
01:34:35they've fluked
01:34:36optimizing
01:34:37formidability for
01:34:38male attention
01:34:38over attractiveness
01:34:39to only land in
01:34:41the middle of
01:34:41David Putz's
01:34:42study finding out
01:34:43that formidability
01:34:44is better predictive
01:34:45of male mating
01:34:46success than
01:34:47attractiveness is.
01:34:47Fame is also
01:34:48this form of
01:34:49psychological
01:34:50formidability too
01:34:51where I've seen
01:34:53how well regarded
01:34:54they'll keep
01:34:55their distance
01:34:56from a famous
01:34:57person.
01:34:59If there's a famous
01:35:00man who's getting
01:35:00a lot of attention
01:35:01from women
01:35:01ordinary men
01:35:02are going to be
01:35:03intimidated by that
01:35:04fame and they're
01:35:04probably not going
01:35:04to try to interrupt
01:35:05him or compete
01:35:06with him for
01:35:07attention and that
01:35:07kind of thing.
01:35:08But if you're
01:35:08famous and you're
01:35:09jacked then it's
01:35:09like imagine the
01:35:10rock being surrounded
01:35:11by how many men
01:35:12are going to be
01:35:12like oh I can
01:35:12take that joke
01:35:13I can poach
01:35:14that girl from
01:35:14the rock.
01:35:15He's famous
01:35:16and he's jacked
01:35:17and so no one
01:35:18will attempt to
01:35:19interfere with his
01:35:20mating success.
01:35:22Haven't you been
01:35:23studying female
01:35:24teacher sex
01:35:25scandals?
01:35:26Studying.
01:35:27That was behind
01:35:27the paywall but I
01:35:28love Chris
01:35:28Williamson and I
01:35:29love modern
01:35:29wisdom so you
01:35:30know let's
01:35:31bring it out.
01:35:31Yeah this is
01:35:33this was my
01:35:34you know kind
01:35:35of this is my
01:35:36conjecture.
01:35:37I don't have
01:35:38hard evidence for
01:35:39this but I was
01:35:39building on
01:35:40something that
01:35:40Louise Perry
01:35:41had written I
01:35:42believe this was
01:35:42in The Spectator
01:35:43you know she was
01:35:43kind of riffing
01:35:44on this idea of
01:35:45OnlyFans and
01:35:46how sexual
01:35:48attention for
01:35:49women can be as
01:35:50satisfying as
01:35:52actual sex can
01:35:54be for men
01:35:55so you know men
01:35:56really like to
01:35:56have sex women
01:35:57really like sexual
01:35:58attention and these
01:35:59can be sort of
01:35:59equally powerful
01:36:00incentives and you
01:36:02know in the
01:36:02context of OnlyFans
01:36:03it's this super
01:36:04normal stimulus in
01:36:05the way that porn
01:36:05is for men so
01:36:06porn you know
01:36:06novelty all these
01:36:08different naked
01:36:08women and so on
01:36:09it's very exciting
01:36:09for men whereas
01:36:10OnlyFans as a
01:36:11creator can be
01:36:12very exciting for
01:36:13women because
01:36:13you're getting
01:36:14large huge amount
01:36:15of sexual
01:36:15attention from
01:36:16thousands of men
01:36:17and all of them
01:36:17are praising you
01:36:18and telling you how
01:36:19beautiful you are
01:36:19you can imagine
01:36:20this would be
01:36:21extremely enjoyable
01:36:23for some women
01:36:24now this the
01:36:25female sexual
01:36:26scandal thing
01:36:27the female teacher
01:36:28sexual scandal I
01:36:29should say
01:36:29you know every
01:36:31few months we see
01:36:31these stories come
01:36:32out of some
01:36:33surprisingly attractive
01:36:34female teacher who
01:36:35sleeps with a
01:36:37male student some
01:36:3715 16 year old
01:36:39kid and you know
01:36:40all these you
01:36:41know the online
01:36:42discourse around
01:36:42this always goes
01:36:43crazy it's also
01:36:45important here to
01:36:45remember that male
01:36:46teachers are still
01:36:47far more likely
01:36:48to commit this
01:36:50transgression of
01:36:50sleeping with an
01:36:51underage student
01:36:51than female teachers
01:36:52are the reason why
01:36:53those stories go
01:36:54viral is because
01:36:54again they're
01:36:54anomalous my
01:36:56suggestion for at
01:36:58least in some
01:36:58cases why these
01:37:00female teachers
01:37:00sleep with their
01:37:02male students is
01:37:03because the
01:37:05response that they
01:37:06get from the
01:37:07male student is
01:37:08is a one of a
01:37:09kind unique sort
01:37:11of super normal
01:37:11stimulus where you
01:37:13know if you're an
01:37:14attractive 25 year old
01:37:15woman and you get
01:37:16naked in front of
01:37:17you know your
01:37:18typical 28 year old
01:37:19guy who's seen
01:37:20naked women before
01:37:21whatever look on
01:37:22his face whatever
01:37:23attention he gives
01:37:23you is not going
01:37:25to be nearly as
01:37:26potent as when you
01:37:27undress for the
01:37:28first time that you
01:37:29see um and you
01:37:32see a uh now
01:37:34now that look
01:37:37like a chef that
01:37:37look that look with
01:37:39your race yeah
01:37:40half half latino
01:37:42half asian does
01:37:42not scream captain
01:37:44of the ship when
01:37:45it's facing backward
01:37:45i don't know what
01:37:46it is you look like
01:37:48you look like the
01:37:48guy out of tin tin
01:37:49wait i don't know
01:37:51this pull up the
01:37:52fucking pull up the
01:37:53dude from tin tin in
01:37:54the hat you can keep
01:37:55going for now um
01:37:56oh i lost uh okay
01:37:57so um you know
01:38:00so so the response
01:38:02right so you're you're
01:38:02an attractive 25 year
01:38:03old woman you get
01:38:04naked in front of a
01:38:0525 year old guy you
01:38:06know the response is
01:38:07you know he's gonna
01:38:07be like wow cool
01:38:08because you know
01:38:09women men like
01:38:09seeing naked women
01:38:10but a 16 year old
01:38:11male who has seen
01:38:13very few naked women
01:38:14in his life he sees
01:38:15a fully grown you
01:38:17know woman at the
01:38:18peak of her fertility
01:38:18and so on for the
01:38:20first time the
01:38:21attention he gives
01:38:22you is going to be
01:38:23extremely potent
01:38:24and it's the kind of
01:38:26look and level of
01:38:27attention that most
01:38:28people wouldn't have
01:38:30access to the reason
01:38:31this is interesting is
01:38:32what is the motivation
01:38:33for these female
01:38:34teachers to do it for
01:38:35male teachers we have
01:38:37at least a little bit
01:38:38more of an
01:38:38understanding yeah i
01:38:39think there is a
01:38:40question and that's
01:38:40one of the reasons
01:38:41it's fascinating it's
01:38:42so anomalous like why
01:38:44yeah why you could go
01:38:45and get anyone yeah
01:38:46well well so for
01:38:47this it's it's if
01:38:48you're you know if
01:38:49you're a predatory
01:38:51male teacher you
01:38:52know it's sort of this
01:38:54warped extreme
01:38:54version of the
01:38:55typical male which
01:38:56is you know you
01:38:56want uh you know
01:38:58someone who's uh
01:38:59attractive and
01:39:00whatever and then
01:39:01like you know this
01:39:02there's that kind of
01:39:02like vulnerability and
01:39:03a power asymmetry and
01:39:05so on um whereas i
01:39:06think if you're a
01:39:07predatory female
01:39:08teacher you get your
01:39:09rocks off through
01:39:10this extreme level of
01:39:12attention um it's not
01:39:13so much the sex in
01:39:14and of itself although
01:39:15that may be part of
01:39:15it because again you
01:39:16get to see this
01:39:16teenage boy have his
01:39:17first sexual
01:39:18experience with a
01:39:19full-grown woman and
01:39:20i think that in
01:39:21itself that kind of
01:39:22power that you have
01:39:22over him and that
01:39:23level of attention is
01:39:24so unique um that
01:39:26you couldn't replicate
01:39:26in any other situation
01:39:28or context in the
01:39:28same way that for the
01:39:29male teacher right like
01:39:30sleeping with this
01:39:31underage girl you
01:39:31couldn't replicate that
01:39:32in any other
01:39:33i'm into like
01:39:35horrendous chick
01:39:38books like just like
01:39:40like every freedom
01:39:41mcfadden book i just
01:39:42blast through and uh
01:39:44i've read the teacher
01:39:46have you read the
01:39:46teacher
01:39:47dude it is
01:39:49freedom mcfadden's the
01:39:50person that did the
01:39:51housemaid right of which
01:39:53sydney sweeney just
01:39:54starred in and then she
01:39:55did the housemaid's
01:39:55revenge and then she
01:39:56did the housemaid
01:39:57cometh back earth and
01:39:58then she's done like uh
01:40:00the patient and the
01:40:01teacher and a bunch of
01:40:02others and it's just easy
01:40:03reading right it's my
01:40:04guilty pleasure and um
01:40:05this one about the
01:40:07teacher the protect the
01:40:09main guy that usually
01:40:11all the guys in the books
01:40:12turn out to be the bad
01:40:13guy like that shock
01:40:14horror freedom mcfadden
01:40:15like the guys turn out
01:40:15to be the bad guys and
01:40:16they're all scumbags the
01:40:18way that they're
01:40:18presented so like rightly
01:40:19so but this one takes it
01:40:21to another level and it
01:40:22turns out this teacher's
01:40:23being like wooing uh
01:40:25first off he's wooing a
01:40:2616 year old and then you
01:40:28find out that he was
01:40:28wooing another 16 year
01:40:30old but doing it when
01:40:32she was 15 and then it
01:40:33turns out that he's one
01:40:34when she's 40 and i'm
01:40:35like this is the it
01:40:37completely changed even
01:40:40the 16 thing you're
01:40:41already like fuck me and
01:40:43it's in the first few
01:40:43chapters like whoa
01:40:44that's okay that's a
01:40:46little strange the
01:40:48final for people that
01:40:49want to read the
01:40:49teacher let's listen
01:40:50away the final final
01:40:52final fucking bit of
01:40:53it the whole twist at
01:40:54the end is that the
01:40:56young jock who's in
01:40:58high school has been
01:41:00sleeping behind the
01:41:01back of the guy that
01:41:03was a nasty teacher with
01:41:04his wife and the jock
01:41:06was 16 too and i'm
01:41:09like the only reason
01:41:10the the reason that
01:41:11you had to put in oh
01:41:12and he slept with this
01:41:13other student when they
01:41:14were 14 is to even the
01:41:16scales but even then
01:41:17when i read it there's
01:41:18a bit of like retribution
01:41:19the guy was real mean and
01:41:20then he's like tried to
01:41:21kill people and whatever
01:41:22whatever like you had to
01:41:22come in and fuck him
01:41:23but that even this
01:41:26example that we've got in
01:41:27front of us as i read it
01:41:28i was like good for her
01:41:29she got railed in the
01:41:30shoe cupboard you know
01:41:31what i mean he's a guy
01:41:32that worked in like the
01:41:33local shoe store or
01:41:34whatever and at the end
01:41:35you find out it's the
01:41:36high school jock i was
01:41:38like yeah is that really
01:41:40the i it just completely
01:41:42lays out like however
01:41:44ethically dubious it was
01:41:46i mean maybe she means
01:41:47it as a something for
01:41:48people to think about
01:41:49because it definitely
01:41:50made me think made me
01:41:51go huh how do i feel
01:41:53about that do i feel
01:41:54does the fact that it
01:41:55was being done by her
01:41:57husband before and
01:41:59younger make this less
01:42:02because she's like a
01:42:0232 year old woman the
01:42:0416 year old boy
01:42:05she described as
01:42:06attractive in the book
01:42:08yes yes and classically
01:42:10overlooked okay you know
01:42:12like um she wants the
01:42:14attention so that's
01:42:15with your theory yeah
01:42:16well i mean this idea
01:42:17of like so i i don't
01:42:18know like because every
01:42:20time we see a story it's
01:42:21always an attractive
01:42:22female teacher and
01:42:22maybe it's possible
01:42:23again there's this dark
01:42:24matter the unattractive
01:42:25ones just don't make the
01:42:26headlines yeah because
01:42:27no one wants to click on
01:42:28an unattractive teacher
01:42:29who sleeps with some kid
01:42:30but if she's hot people
01:42:31will click on the story
01:42:32but if it's the case that
01:42:34more attractive teachers
01:42:36tend to do this i think
01:42:38that too sort of
01:42:38aligns with well well
01:42:39two two things here
01:42:40which is one like they
01:42:41are likely to get that
01:42:42sort of uh intense
01:42:42reaction from male
01:42:43students because they're
01:42:44attractive and then the
01:42:45other thing is they just
01:42:46have more opportunity
01:42:46right like if you're an
01:42:47attractive person you
01:42:48just have more
01:42:49opportunity in general
01:42:49and so you know that
01:42:50also sort of you know
01:42:51it's uh maybe maybe
01:42:52there are ugly teachers
01:42:53who would like to sleep
01:42:54with their teachers they
01:42:54just don't have you
01:42:55know very many chances
01:42:56didn't you have a
01:42:57twitter poll on this
01:42:59regarding um it was
01:43:00it was really interesting
01:43:01would you rather where
01:43:02you found a big sex
01:43:03difference on like would
01:43:04you rather sleep with
01:43:04someone very attractive
01:43:06or someone who's very
01:43:07attracted to you
01:43:08oh yeah yeah yeah
01:43:09so um i put it uh two
01:43:10different uh polls on
01:43:12twitter um first uh for
01:43:14men and i asked you
01:43:16know this is a forced
01:43:17choice this contrived
01:43:18scenario uh would you
01:43:19rather sleep with someone
01:43:20who you find uh intensely
01:43:22attractive but they are
01:43:24not at all attracted to
01:43:25you or would you rather
01:43:27sleep with someone who
01:43:27finds you very attractive
01:43:28but you are not
01:43:29attracted at all to them
01:43:31so i administered that
01:43:32poll first to men and
01:43:34to women and literally
01:43:35got the exact opposite
01:43:36where something like 75
01:43:37percent of men were
01:43:39like give me the hot
01:43:40person who finds me
01:43:41ugly uh that's way more
01:43:42preferable than uh
01:43:44sleeping with an ugly
01:43:44person who finds me
01:43:45hot whereas women it
01:43:46was the opposite women
01:43:47were about 75 percent
01:43:48of women said they
01:43:49would rather sleep with
01:43:50someone who they find
01:43:50ugly who finds them
01:43:51attractive than to sleep
01:43:52with a hot person who
01:43:54was unattractive to
01:43:54them um so it's almost
01:43:56like men and women were
01:43:56made for each other
01:43:57this was something that
01:43:58this was a mess up that
01:43:59i did this is a mess up
01:44:01that i did in my
01:44:01conversation with esther
01:44:02perel uh where she said
01:44:04something to the effect
01:44:05of when have you ever
01:44:08she was talking about
01:44:08desire and what makes a
01:44:10woman feel desired said
01:44:11something to the effect
01:44:11of when have you ever
01:44:12heard of a woman being
01:44:13turned on because her
01:44:14partner was like aroused
01:44:15in front of her like
01:44:16women need to be wooed
01:44:17and i i was just like in
01:44:19i wasn't in my ep hat
01:44:20i was in my relating
01:44:21and she's the expert hat
01:44:23and uh i should have
01:44:24just said dude like
01:44:25being desired is probably
01:44:27the number one thing
01:44:28that women want as a
01:44:29turn-on uh or the
01:44:31other thing that women
01:44:31want as a turn-on just
01:44:32put this hat back on
01:44:33backwards for me i've
01:44:34worked out who it is
01:44:34that you look like i
01:44:35got it wrong i thought
01:44:37it on backwards put it
01:44:37on backwards hold on i
01:44:39gotta you know i got a
01:44:39big dome man you do
01:44:41both of you do actually
01:44:41i couldn't believe it
01:44:42no no no so there it
01:44:43is so i thought that it
01:44:45was uh tintin it's not
01:44:47tintin it's indiana jones
01:44:49and it's this i'm just
01:44:53glad you is that not
01:44:54you i mean
01:44:55you know oh wait but
01:44:57don't i have to wear it
01:44:57like this yeah no he's
01:44:59good on backwards does he
01:45:00not no he's got it the
01:45:01right way there okay well
01:45:03it's not a captain's hat
01:45:03anyway i knew that i was
01:45:05right um yeah i uh
01:45:08wait that's tintin no no
01:45:10no that's fucking the kid
01:45:12from indiana jones
01:45:12um yeah i'm i'm like i'm
01:45:17kind of fascinated by
01:45:18what's gonna unfold over
01:45:20the next few years with
01:45:21what's happening with
01:45:22increased socioeconomic
01:45:23successful women male
01:45:25beautification i actually
01:45:26think that what guys
01:45:27think they're doing even
01:45:28if it doesn't work with
01:45:29the formidability double
01:45:30loop close-eye bullseye
01:45:32thing is uh i think that
01:45:34it's a kind of rejection
01:45:36of the female gaze in some
01:45:38ways like it's just male
01:45:39to male intersexual
01:45:40competition do you ever
01:45:41remember ziz the ziz the
01:45:43the he was a kind of the
01:45:44original lux max or in
01:45:46some ways he was a
01:45:46bodybuilding icon in 2010
01:45:482011 2012 uh and died
01:45:52aussie aussie guy real
01:45:53good-looking dude just
01:45:54trained in the gym he
01:45:54wasn't like doing the
01:45:55hardcore lux max and
01:45:56stuff but just trained in
01:45:57the gym and he had this
01:45:58line which was uh disregard
01:46:00women acquire dance moves
01:46:01and it was just him
01:46:03talking about you want to
01:46:04go out with your boys and
01:46:05have a good time and he
01:46:06was saying this is a
01:46:07naturally very attractive
01:46:08man who'd then done some
01:46:10weightlifting to make him
01:46:11look real adonis greek
01:46:12goddy but uh i get the
01:46:14sense that it is kind of a
01:46:15rejection of i'm just
01:46:17going to focus on becoming
01:46:18the most like mog mog mog
01:46:20you know where that
01:46:21comes from you know the
01:46:22etymology of mogging is
01:46:23yeah a mog alpha male of
01:46:24the group that was what
01:46:26it came and then that
01:46:27shortened to mogging so
01:46:28alpha male of the group
01:46:29is referring to your
01:46:31status within the
01:46:32hierarchy of other men
01:46:33not like chad of the
01:46:36group chad is almost
01:46:37rejected as a term it's
01:46:40like i'm not doing this
01:46:40for anybody else and
01:46:41this is you know yeah
01:46:42this is uh there was
01:46:43that the clavicular
01:46:44profile and you know i
01:46:46don't know how
01:46:47representative he is but
01:46:47this is this aligns with
01:46:48what you're saying here
01:46:49where he said uh two
01:46:50interesting things one he
01:46:51said something like um you
01:46:53know i my the main thing
01:46:55is mogging people like
01:46:56that's where he gets his
01:46:57rocks all i want to do is
01:46:57mog that's like that's
01:46:59what's fun for me the
01:47:00second thing he said was
01:47:01knowing he could have
01:47:02sex with a woman was
01:47:03more satisfying than
01:47:04actually having sex with a
01:47:05woman just the knowledge
01:47:06that he could is is good
01:47:07enough for him so yeah
01:47:09it's like disregard women
01:47:10you know get get jacked
01:47:11higher dance moves or
01:47:12whatever mog other men
01:47:13and and not have sex with
01:47:14women how common is that
01:47:16ever going to be though
01:47:16you've got to be a real
01:47:20extreme to say i'm going
01:47:21to do all of the work to
01:47:22be able to have sex with
01:47:24a woman but it's somehow
01:47:25more enjoyable to me to
01:47:27not do i mean this might
01:47:28be part of the medical
01:47:28castration thing that's
01:47:29going on or the
01:47:30performance enhancing
01:47:31castration yeah how much
01:47:33do you think a denial of
01:47:34sex differences at the
01:47:35moment has led to the
01:47:37current mating crisis is
01:47:39that something that you've
01:47:40drawn the lineage through
01:47:42hmm you're looking at me
01:47:44because i'm talking quite a
01:47:45bit in my book about the
01:47:46denial of sex differences
01:47:47but i can't see a direct
01:47:49line from that i mean you've
01:47:51talked about in your book
01:47:52um superb you you discuss the
01:47:55dangers of um ignoring
01:47:57minimizing sex differences
01:47:59um but you you know you
01:48:01also sort of acknowledge that
01:48:03that uh historically people
01:48:04have sort of overstated the
01:48:05sex differences the dangers
01:48:06of overstating yeah um can be
01:48:09uh you know particularly
01:48:09harmful to women but to to
01:48:11men as well and so so what
01:48:13yeah i'm curious what are the
01:48:14dangers of minimizing and
01:48:15and then overstating uh the
01:48:17dangers of minimizing so we
01:48:19talked about this right um so
01:48:20one danger is that just as
01:48:22people used to uh try to force
01:48:24boys and girls and men and
01:48:26women into um traditional
01:48:29gender roles even if they
01:48:30didn't quite fit them uh you
01:48:32can get you can get the
01:48:33reverse if you minimize or
01:48:34deny sex differences and
01:48:35just think that they're due to
01:48:36discrimination you're
01:48:37going to think that actually
01:48:38uh we should be trying to
01:48:39minimize them we should be
01:48:40trying to push uh boys and
01:48:42girls and men and women out
01:48:43of traditional uh uh gender
01:48:45roles and that is a problem
01:48:47if they don't fit into them
01:48:48that's that's one problem
01:48:49uh another one if you
01:48:51minimize sex differences is
01:48:53that you might uh fail to
01:48:54to notice physical problems
01:48:57and psychological problems
01:48:58that present differently in
01:49:00one sex than the other so
01:49:02uh classic example is
01:49:03cardiovascular problems like
01:49:04like heart attacks the
01:49:06symptoms are different for men
01:49:07and women um and the male
01:49:10symptoms are better known so
01:49:11the pain and the sort of
01:49:12chest and down the arms is
01:49:15quite well known um that's
01:49:17much less common in women
01:49:18uh shortness of breath is a
01:49:19much more common uh symptom
01:49:21in women people don't tend to
01:49:22know that uh they often often
01:49:23in the past especially just
01:49:24didn't know that and so
01:49:25women would have heart
01:49:26attacks and not be aware of
01:49:28it until they progress quite a
01:49:30long way down the road and
01:49:31so you know it cost lives and
01:49:33but by not noticing sex
01:49:34differences rather than than
01:49:36noticing on that point like
01:49:37yeah minimizing sex difference
01:49:38i'm thinking about uh with
01:49:40chris's question of something
01:49:41like um you know if you truly
01:49:43believe in sort of you know
01:49:45blank slate ism for men and
01:49:46women and then you're lucky
01:49:49you're a young naive girl and
01:49:50you go off to college and you
01:49:52assume oh you know men and
01:49:53women are basically the same
01:49:54and then you go to a frat
01:49:55party and get really drunk and
01:49:56you assume you know guys are
01:49:57kind of like girls and there's
01:49:59no real and you don't
01:49:59understand that there are like
01:50:01you know predatory men you
01:50:02know the average difference
01:50:03isn't as you've mentioned in
01:50:04your book aggressiveness is not
01:50:05that large but in the tales the
01:50:06most extremely aggressive
01:50:08sexually predatory people tend
01:50:09to be men and if you go to
01:50:10yeah get drunk at a frat
01:50:11party and you're 18 you don't
01:50:12understand there are sex
01:50:14differences here in terms of
01:50:16uh you know motivations around
01:50:17sex and so forth that this
01:50:18can you know can
01:50:19so i don't know whether it's
01:50:20a denial of sex
01:50:21of differences between the
01:50:23sexes it's a denial of
01:50:24where they come from
01:50:25well there is both i think
01:50:26right i think the one you're
01:50:27talking about is where you
01:50:29might fail to uh see the
01:50:30sex difference at all
01:50:31regardless of where it
01:50:32comes from and open yourself
01:50:33up to certain kind of risks
01:50:34that you otherwise might not
01:50:35but you are right um there
01:50:37are a lot of sex
01:50:38differences people will
01:50:39acknowledge the
01:50:39differences including that
01:50:40difference but just think
01:50:42you can attribute it
01:50:43entirely to largely to
01:50:45socialization what's
01:50:46happening with the dual
01:50:47mating and mate switching
01:50:48hypothesis race at the
01:50:50moment has there been any
01:50:51update do we know
01:50:52i i i i can't spoil their
01:50:55party unfortunately but
01:50:56there is there's news i
01:50:57i heard you do i genuinely
01:50:58can't behind the sea you
01:51:00have you been under the
01:51:01buses because you've got
01:51:02special behind no it's
01:51:03it's not it's not that it's
01:51:04just that i recognize that
01:51:05when people present work
01:51:06that's you know like at a
01:51:07conference uh it's like oh
01:51:09it's preliminary oh we're
01:51:10gonna have to roll it out in
01:51:11its own time this is the
01:51:12modern wisdom conference i
01:51:13know i know i mean i'll
01:51:15happily i'll happily tell you
01:51:16the full kind of update
01:51:17all right you're like when i
01:51:19you know you know what it's
01:51:20like it's like when i bring
01:51:21navy seals on and they go
01:51:22dude i know exactly what
01:51:23happened with the summer
01:51:24i'll tell you on air well
01:51:26it's it's it's not me
01:51:27trying to aura farm or
01:51:28anything like that it's
01:51:29literally just like i know
01:51:30that i know that i know
01:51:31that i know i know that uh
01:51:33ryan dobson and and his
01:51:36party are going to be rolling
01:51:37out some cool research pretty
01:51:38soon is it not public once
01:51:40it's been uh put out of the
01:51:41conference uh well i was
01:51:43told by candace no but
01:51:45maybe that that's kind of a
01:51:46social intuition
01:51:47but i i'm a i'm a new
01:51:51academic so to say so i
01:51:52don't necessarily have this
01:51:53is this is the issue this
01:51:54is the issue that macken's
01:51:55got macken and williams the
01:51:57same and i don't understand
01:51:58it but i kind of get it
01:51:59there's sort of the mafioso
01:52:00of the human behavior and
01:52:03ecology world and you don't
01:52:04want to step on the toes of
01:52:06anybody is just a mere
01:52:08underling but if you were the
01:52:09boss right or an underboss
01:52:10if you're david bust you can
01:52:13just start spouting theories
01:52:14whenever you want but if
01:52:16you're sort of a new
01:52:17entrant at the bottom of
01:52:18the pyramid yeah yeah it
01:52:20is okay i've got i've got a
01:52:21question that i've never been
01:52:23able to work out why do you
01:52:24think women's sexual desire
01:52:25declines faster than men's in
01:52:28relationships i i genuinely
01:52:31don't know i tweeted it as a
01:52:32question i'm hoping that maybe
01:52:33steve or um rob here have
01:52:35better i genuinely don't know
01:52:37either i was bro if i'm
01:52:38three for three here this is
01:52:40fucking money i mean would it
01:52:42not make sense that women hit
01:52:45the peak of fertility would
01:52:47have the strongest desire for
01:52:48sex i mean yeah for
01:52:49just but this isn't this isn't
01:52:51this so that effect exists as
01:52:52well yeah but this effect is
01:52:54even more peculiar where if
01:52:57they remate again later the
01:52:59sex drive goes up again oh it
01:53:01does it's just that it's like oh
01:53:02the first year or two sort of a
01:53:04mate retention strategy right
01:53:06you're in a new relationship so
01:53:07you would want to sort of boost
01:53:09your sexual uh uh you know
01:53:11whatever libido
01:53:12so you're getting it's an
01:53:14adaptation to get them on the
01:53:15hook to say if you mate with me
01:53:17there'll be sex all the time
01:53:18yeah but once you have a guy
01:53:19locked in and you've been
01:53:20married for 20 years and you're
01:53:21no longer fertile and you know
01:53:23the the risks to you are very
01:53:25low if you're you know and yeah i
01:53:27wish it was 20 years the decline
01:53:28is the decline is precipitous
01:53:30within the first year i think it
01:53:32dropped by half and then it
01:53:34drops again and then it drops
01:53:35again but i talked about this
01:53:37earlier on your risks of
01:53:38pregnancy are much higher the
01:53:39older you get too yeah there's
01:53:41not a big cost for men so maybe
01:53:42looking at the women's side of
01:53:43it is the wrong maybe it's just
01:53:44it doesn't decline for men
01:53:46because it's not such a big
01:53:46cost for men maybe sex starts as
01:53:49a bargaining strategy but then
01:53:50sorry a retention strategy but
01:53:53then becomes a bargaining chip
01:53:54later i don't know if that's
01:53:55too that's i don't know if
01:53:57that's too out there but maybe
01:53:58maybe the strategic function of
01:53:59non-conceptive sex because
01:54:01there's two types of sex right
01:54:02there's concept of sex and
01:54:03non-conceptive sex and humans
01:54:05are weird that we do both um
01:54:07and this non-conceptive sex i
01:54:09could see it having this
01:54:09retention function early but
01:54:11then once you're in the
01:54:12relationship it's like well
01:54:13what am i doing with this and
01:54:15maybe it's maybe it's a
01:54:16bargaining chip so i remember
01:54:17that study that you tweeted
01:54:18which was uh women say that
01:54:21inside of relationships they
01:54:22have a roundabout the the
01:54:24amount of sex that they want
01:54:25and men self-report that they
01:54:27would like to have about twice
01:54:28as much sex as they are which
01:54:29suggests that the couple zero
01:54:32in on the preferred level of
01:54:34sex that the woman wants and
01:54:36that the man is making a
01:54:37compromise yeah yeah yeah
01:54:38that was uh that was from
01:54:39roy baumeister uh if i'm not
01:54:41mistaken and yeah i mean i
01:54:43think he does he does um offer
01:54:45this as a as an idea that um
01:54:48the the you know that sex can
01:54:51be a bargaining chip and that
01:54:52kind of as you as the
01:54:53relationship prolongs and
01:54:54endures and so on that uh you
01:54:56know sex is essentially used
01:54:58initially the reason why it's
01:54:59so high is to lock the male
01:55:00partner in and to you know to
01:55:02to you know get this all the
01:55:04time commitment and then you
01:55:05know once once he's uh he's
01:55:07committed then you don't have
01:55:08to have as much sex you're
01:55:09thinking about sort of the
01:55:10costs and benefits of sex in
01:55:11general and you know the the
01:55:14costs are relatively low when
01:55:15you're in your 20s and you
01:55:17know early 30s but then as
01:55:18you age uh pregnancy you know
01:55:20get tired and then you hit
01:55:21menopause and but if you can
01:55:22presumably these studies are
01:55:24controlled for age though yeah
01:55:25again there is the age effect is
01:55:27real um there's actually some
01:55:28new data on that which is
01:55:30not uh which is kind of kind
01:55:32of weird actually but we can
01:55:35talk about that separately um
01:55:36but yeah no it's a it's a
01:55:37within a relationship time span
01:55:39effect and it's surprisingly
01:55:41quick so it wouldn't
01:55:42necessarily just be like
01:55:43fertility decline it seems to
01:55:44be like genuine um design
01:55:47maybe it's just non maybe
01:55:48there's not much evolutionary
01:55:50storytelling to be told here
01:55:51it's like boredom but i don't
01:55:52know what's the well are we
01:55:54talking like like apps in
01:55:55absolute terms like how much
01:55:56does it actually decline
01:55:57absolutely it'll be on my
01:55:58twitter it's gonna be hard to
01:56:00find because like relative to
01:56:02men it totally makes sense that
01:56:03men are always going to have a
01:56:04stronger sex drive like in
01:56:06relationships single whatever
01:56:08the situation is men are just
01:56:09because you know for like an
01:56:10average error management
01:56:11perspective um it's better for
01:56:12men to just sort of be ready to
01:56:13go at any time but for women i'm
01:56:16just wondering like how much of
01:56:17uh the decline uh occurs from
01:56:20time one to time two to time
01:56:21three and so on
01:56:21not sure um can i just add you
01:56:24know the idea of uh women using
01:56:25sex to get guys into relationships
01:56:27i think it's a bit more
01:56:28symmetrical than that i think
01:56:29that um sex bonds both parties
01:56:32to both partners to each other
01:56:33often yeah the king of sex
01:56:35differences telling us i don't
01:56:37think there's a sex difference
01:56:38there which is yeah there's always
01:56:39going to be one i wanted to ask
01:56:41something um and then you can
01:56:43tell me if this is taking us too
01:56:44far afield here um on our
01:56:45earlier discussion something
01:56:46occurred to me which is you know
01:56:49like what's the question we're
01:56:50interested in uh like regarding
01:56:52sex differences is it um you
01:56:54know how interesting that men are
01:56:57different now than they were
01:56:57decades ago or how interesting is
01:57:00it that sex differences are
01:57:01larger in this context but
01:57:02smaller in that one or are we
01:57:04interested in um you know
01:57:05what's like the true sex
01:57:07difference you know you strip
01:57:08away everything and like once
01:57:09you really drill down here's what
01:57:10it is and i remember i had this
01:57:12conversation um i think i was
01:57:13in college working as an ra years
01:57:16ago and um you know we were
01:57:19reading about weird societies
01:57:20western educated industrialized
01:57:22rich democracies and you know
01:57:24there was this thing going on
01:57:25both of you know all of you are
01:57:26aware of this of like oh we
01:57:27can't really learn anything
01:57:28about i mean i'm simplifying
01:57:30some we can't really learn much
01:57:31about human psychology studying
01:57:33weird societies because this is
01:57:34a very sort of peculiar time in
01:57:35history these are very strange
01:57:37you know weird societies in both
01:57:38senses of the term um and so
01:57:40we need to collect data from
01:57:41other countries and other uh
01:57:43parts of the world and you know
01:57:44look historically and so on
01:57:45um and i i wondered like like
01:57:48when we're trying to study
01:57:49psychology when we're trying to
01:57:50study human nature um what is
01:57:52more reflective of human nature
01:57:55too is it um you got to look at
01:57:57the hunter-gatherers you know
01:57:58whether extant hunter-gatherers
01:58:00or hunter-gatherers you know in
01:58:02pre-agricultural times when they
01:58:03were sort of scattered all over
01:58:04the world and had access to
01:58:06different kinds of land and
01:58:07territory and so on um we got to
01:58:09study the hunter-gatherers in
01:58:11environments of relative
01:58:11scarcity uh because that's what
01:58:13humans uh that's how humans
01:58:15lived for most of our
01:58:16evolutionary history that's what
01:58:18human nature is or is it um that
01:58:21can't be human nature because
01:58:22they lived in relative scarcity
01:58:23and they're they're only behaving
01:58:24that way because they're stuck in
01:58:27this kind of you know archaic
01:58:29pre-industrial pre-literate
01:58:30society and actually we should be
01:58:32studying rich societies because
01:58:34now that you have all of your
01:58:35needs met now sort of the true
01:58:36underlying uh traits and
01:58:39attributes and characteristics can
01:58:40finally emerge and um you know
01:58:43instantiate themselves so it's
01:58:44like the gender gender inequality
01:58:46paradox but except with like the
01:58:48abundance paradox let's say we're
01:58:49becoming like like what what i mean
01:58:51yeah or or or does the question not
01:58:53even make sense that there is no real
01:58:54true human nature and that it'll
01:58:55always kind of interact with
01:58:56environments in weird ways
01:58:58yeah uh both of those ideas came to my
01:59:01mind as you were as you were saying
01:59:02that uh in terms of what the
01:59:04evolutionary push is just
01:59:05directionally i think it's good to
01:59:07look at all the different uh types of
01:59:08societies do you find that in
01:59:10hunter-gatherers does it persist even
01:59:12in weird societies but sometimes that's
01:59:13quite good evidence of in weird
01:59:15societies often you have a push
01:59:16against traditional sex
01:59:17differences and they often emerge
01:59:19anyway suggesting that there is an
01:59:21innate nudge um yeah if they get
01:59:24bigger in uh abundant societies it may be
01:59:29that they're um expressing themselves
01:59:32more than the level for which they were
01:59:35selected to be expressed
01:59:36so it could be that uh human nature is
01:59:40able to express itself
01:59:41to an unnaturally extreme degree
01:59:44uh potentially yeah does that
01:59:47yeah yeah that makes sense yeah i mean i
01:59:51spoke to um the anthropologist william
01:59:53buckner about this and he actually had a
01:59:55real gripe about uh the evo psych
01:59:58studies on um on sex differences and
02:00:01mate preferences and his gripe was that
02:00:03if the logic is that the eea is what
02:00:06forged these then they really should be
02:00:08more consistent the environment of
02:00:10evolutionary adaptedness which isn't
02:00:12which is you know it's it's a it's a
02:00:14it's it's caricatured yeah it's
02:00:15caricatured as like oh there was like
02:00:1710 000 years in the police to scene
02:00:19where we're really but it's really it's
02:00:20like a composite of all selection that
02:00:22has happened essentially and steve
02:00:24could probably summarize it better than
02:00:25me
02:00:26um but um his perspective which i think
02:00:29is really fair um was that these sex
02:00:33differences and mate preferences are
02:00:35less consistently found in these small
02:00:38scale hunter-gatherer societies and
02:00:40they're more consistently found in these
02:00:42industrialized populations and that
02:00:44feels like it gives me a gut feeling of
02:00:46like there's something something's a
02:00:48little odd here um because really if it
02:00:52was like these are formed by you know
02:00:54these sex differences and mate
02:00:56preferences evolved in a hunter-gatherer
02:00:58context and then you go and ask the
02:00:59schwar and they're like hey we actually
02:01:03don't really agree with you about that
02:01:05that's that that's real alarm bells i
02:01:07it's not it's not necessarily a quality
02:01:09paradox but just across time exactly and
02:01:11you don't find it at all and some of
02:01:13those societies right some some sex
02:01:14differences aren't found and some of
02:01:15them even seem to be reversed like
02:01:17among the um among the wadabe of the
02:01:20sahel region it's men who are you know
02:01:22wearing tons of makeup and looking
02:01:24incredibly glamorous and actually stand
02:01:25side by side in male beauty pageants and
02:01:28the the females actually pick um a partner
02:01:31based solely on on the physical appearance
02:01:34or not not solely but you know quite a
02:01:36lot speaking of some uh some odd
02:01:37rituals craig jones bjj guy was telling
02:01:40me he went to go and see a i don't know
02:01:42whether we're talking hunter-gatherer but
02:01:44certainly something that's got some
02:01:46primitive elements to it and um the young
02:01:49women would walk through a kind of
02:01:53alleyway of men guys on either sides and
02:01:56the guys would pick sticks of a
02:01:58particular width and they would whip the
02:02:01girls as they walk past and the goals
02:02:03were not to make a sound and if the
02:02:05girls didn't make a sound they were seen
02:02:06as high a status because they could
02:02:08endure their pain tolerance was higher
02:02:10and every woman that was in this tribe
02:02:12it may be hunter-gatherer stuff i'm not
02:02:13too sure uh every uh girl that was in
02:02:16the tribe their back was it looked like
02:02:18some saying horrendous out of the 1700s
02:02:20so they're signaling mate value through
02:02:22formidability as through pain tolerance
02:02:24well i can withdraw childbirth yeah oh
02:02:27specifically i can i can endure childbirth
02:02:29we are very varied as a species culturally
02:02:31right it's amazing yeah it does give me
02:02:33pause that my preferences aren't found as
02:02:35consistently among hunter-gatherers
02:02:37definitely does give me pause uh the
02:02:39reason i don't just automatically just
02:02:41say well then it didn't evolve the way
02:02:43evolutionary psychologists have said is
02:02:45that even though you do more consistently
02:02:47find them in uh non hunter-gatherer societies
02:02:50um you do find them very consistently in
02:02:54those societies which i think would be
02:02:56surprising if there was no innate push
02:02:58so i'm not exactly sure how to square the
02:03:00circle there um and it does give me some
02:03:02degree of pause but yeah i do think
02:03:04there's something there and also you know
02:03:05there are other lines of evidence that
02:03:07do find it in more traditional societies
02:03:10that do find sex differences and mate
02:03:12preferences maybe not in sort of self-report
02:03:14contexts but if you look at um
02:03:16uh folk tales and fairy stories from right
02:03:19across the world different world regions
02:03:20you do find very consistently that people
02:03:24put more importance on women's appearance
02:03:26than they do on men's and more importance
02:03:28on men's resources and status than they do
02:03:31in women's so a lot of it does depend on
02:03:33the kind of data that you look at it just
02:03:34occurred to me uh steve in your book i
02:03:36think you you point out uh you know one
02:03:38one line of evidence for uh you know the
02:03:41the sex differences being um you know
02:03:44sort of evolutionary in origin and not
02:03:46entirely socially constructed is uh the way
02:03:49that that gay men what they find attractive
02:03:50yeah appearance in youth and so on but um
02:03:54do gay women um like what are they
02:03:57attracted to do they like resources and
02:03:58status in their female partners does
02:04:01anyone know this uh yes i think that they
02:04:03do i don't and i don't think they put a
02:04:04like huge amounts of uh weight on on the
02:04:07parents even though they're evaluating
02:04:09women rather than yeah yeah that makes
02:04:11sense to me yeah because i've seen you know
02:04:13gay men tend to be very fit and so on and
02:04:14and gay women less so but then what what are
02:04:17they attracted to the kinds of things that
02:04:19that heterosexual women are attracted to in a
02:04:21partner like career ambition and success and
02:04:23those kinds of yeah you know i would love to
02:04:25see i would love to see a sex toy study
02:04:29between what straight women like and what
02:04:32gay women like
02:04:33because like there's no reason that the
02:04:36sex toys should in any way resemble a male
02:04:38yeah except for female anatomy yes but it
02:04:42the the way that it's put together the
02:04:44humanness of it yeah but it shouldn't
02:04:46actually matter unless you manage to say
02:04:48that well and this is true the penis is
02:04:50the optimal vagina penetrating machine
02:04:52right it's been shaped it's been shaped
02:04:54across time billion years yeah over a
02:04:56billion years of penis penis evolution
02:04:57speaking of speaking of the ways that uh
02:05:00humans are quite different mackin can you
02:05:01tell me what this hamster thing is what
02:05:03hamster thing oh my gosh what's this
02:05:05something something to do with a hamster
02:05:08from you as a kid
02:05:08what hamster thing were you not were you
02:05:11not obsessed with hamsters i was yeah but
02:05:13it's i didn't realize that this was
02:05:15going to be a huge job i didn't realize
02:05:16this was interesting that you say that
02:05:18because oh my god oh nice that's
02:05:23incredible well i didn't realize that
02:05:26this was public this is i feel like i'm
02:05:28in a fever dream
02:05:29this is happening um but yeah no i think
02:05:31that i was obsessed with hamsters as a
02:05:34child not sexually right just to be clear
02:05:36not sexually i was just i pivoted from the
02:05:38penis thing to the hamster thing
02:05:39seamlessly there but it wasn't yeah i
02:05:40mean this is uh this is an incredible
02:05:42gift thank you so much yeah my dad got me
02:05:44a shirt that said hamster man on it and
02:05:46i think there uh i think that there are
02:05:47some photos on google images floating
02:05:49around of me as a of me as an eight-year-old
02:05:51be careful what you put on the internet
02:05:52so i didn't i didn't even put it there
02:05:55this is uh i'm gonna put this on right
02:05:56now heck yeah boys i appreciate you all
02:05:58you're all awesome uh what do you want
02:06:00to plug where should people go to check
02:06:01rob henderson's newsletter on sub stack
02:06:03robk henderson.com and the paperback of my
02:06:06first book troubled a memoir of foster care
02:06:07family and social class
02:06:08nice um a new book a billion years of sex
02:06:10differences my previous book the eight
02:06:12that understood the universe uh and my
02:06:14sub stack which is the nature nurture
02:06:15nature newsletter
02:06:16yeah nothing to sell follow me on tiktok
02:06:19yeah you do uh at hamsterman on tiktok
02:06:22all right mack and murphy uh boys i
02:06:24appreciate you all these roundtable things
02:06:25are so fucking fun it's the best it's the
02:06:27best i love you all thank you for coming
02:06:29thanks see you next time everyone boys
02:06:32yes we've done it
02:06:33congratulations you made it to the end of
02:06:37a full podcast episode you are not so
02:06:38tiktok brain that you've completely
02:06:40dissolved into nothingness
02:06:41why not watch another one right
02:06:45go on press it
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