00:00:00- It's Valentine's Day.
00:00:01- I mean, listen, this is a big day.
00:00:03People get all hopped up, make bad choices.
00:00:05It's technically, this is like the best holiday
00:00:07for my profession because--
00:00:08- The biggest influx of future clients.
00:00:10- Yeah, there's just a level of confidence out there today.
00:00:12You know what I mean?
00:00:13Like everybody out there is just like hyper confident.
00:00:15There's a lot of proposals happen on Valentine's Day.
00:00:18And the romantic in me kind of is like,
00:00:20"Oh, this is lovely."
00:00:21And then the professional in me is like,
00:00:24statistically, the likelihood you're gonna cross paths with me
00:00:27is pretty good.
00:00:29- For the people that are listening,
00:00:30if you haven't got your beloved, a Valentine's gift yet
00:00:33and you're shitting yourself and you think,
00:00:34"Oh crap, I haven't done anything."
00:00:36Or if you just want to connect more deeply with your partner
00:00:38or work out if you should leave them,
00:00:40I've put together a list of 50 of the internet's
00:00:42most viral questions to connect more deeply with your partner
00:00:45some of them are evidence-based,
00:00:46some of them are stuff that I've come up with.
00:00:47And then 25 to work out whether or not it's time to leave.
00:00:50You can get that at chriswillx.com/valentines.
00:00:53That's chriswillx.com/valentines.
00:00:56We were just talking about famous people.
00:00:59What do you see in the marriages and divorces
00:01:02of professional athletes?
00:01:03- Well, professional athletes are a very particular breed
00:01:06because professional athletes have had a monastic discipline,
00:01:09most of them, to a very specific task.
00:01:12And so they have going for them
00:01:15in the context of relationship, A,
00:01:18that they are used to putting all of their focus
00:01:21into one thing, right?
00:01:22How to catch and throw a football,
00:01:24how to shoot a three, whatever it might be.
00:01:26And so that becomes a useful skill in marriage
00:01:29because in marriage like that one pointedness
00:01:32can also be very useful and it keeps you
00:01:33from being distracted by all the little shiny objects
00:01:37that happen.
00:01:37So that's helpful.
00:01:39It depends on the type of athlete
00:01:41because I will tell you like NFL players,
00:01:44they get their contracts early.
00:01:46They usually have a girlfriend who they were with
00:01:48when they were kind of on the come up.
00:01:50And then they get giant contracts very early on
00:01:54'cause they have such short careers.
00:01:55So you're talking about getting a couple hundred million
00:01:58dollars when you're in your early twenties.
00:02:01You usually have just married the girl you were dating
00:02:03in high school, you know, and all of that money
00:02:07is now being acquired during the marriage.
00:02:09So it's all subject to division because you're one person
00:02:12in the eyes of the law on the day you get married.
00:02:13Most of these guys don't know that.
00:02:15Most of them aren't sophisticated enough
00:02:16that they would say, "Hey, you know,
00:02:18"we should make sure I have a prenup."
00:02:20They don't always have the best people around them
00:02:21giving them advice when it comes to things like that.
00:02:24So, you know, I think professional athletes,
00:02:27depending on the longevity, like MLB players, NHL players,
00:02:31they have a longer career.
00:02:32So when I, you know, yeah, any of it's sports
00:02:36that don't have that massive physical injury likelihood,
00:02:40like even MMA fighters are more like NFL players,
00:02:42I mean, except without the amount of money behind it.
00:02:45You really do see that this person is just,
00:02:50when that person leaves their sport,
00:02:54there's a, they're really kind of unmoored.
00:02:57They're lost a lot of them because they,
00:03:00especially NFL players, it's such a short career
00:03:02and there's only so many slots for people
00:03:04to become a commentator
00:03:05and it's a very specific kind of field.
00:03:07So like if somebody was like a, you know, defensive lineman,
00:03:10like he may not be the most articulate fellow in the world
00:03:12'cause it wasn't required for his profession.
00:03:14- Maybe a bit of CTE.
00:03:15- Yeah, and to have been so like focused on one thing,
00:03:18your whole career, your whole life.
00:03:20I mean, these are people who started playing
00:03:21when they were five, six, seven years old
00:03:23and they made it a monastic discipline.
00:03:26And now, you know, they made a lot of money on it.
00:03:30When they're playing, very easy to be married
00:03:33'cause it's very structured.
00:03:35You know, pre-season you're here, post-season you're here,
00:03:38during the season you're traveling,
00:03:39but they make lots of accommodations.
00:03:41All the leagues make lots of accommodations
00:03:42for family members so that people can travel with them.
00:03:45And they're busy, they're busy all the time.
00:03:47It's being an athlete is a very,
00:03:49it's like representing professional musicians,
00:03:51like a rock musician who's a touring musician,
00:03:53they got a lot of free time.
00:03:55They got a lot of partying around them.
00:03:57But athletes to perform at the level
00:04:00that most professional athletes have to perform,
00:04:02you kind of have to keep your shit together.
00:04:04So it's not as bad.
00:04:05What I will say is their divorce rate when they retire
00:04:09or get injured and have to leave
00:04:11and retire as a function of it,
00:04:13they have no idea what to do with themselves.
00:04:14- I saw national divorce statistics around about 50%.
00:04:17For professional athletes, it's close to 70%.
00:04:20So you're nearly 50% higher than the general public.
00:04:23And 50% of those divorces will come within one year
00:04:28of your retirement.
00:04:29- Because look, you said for better or for worse,
00:04:31you didn't say for lunch.
00:04:33And this person went from being as busy as busy can be,
00:04:37meaning they are from the minute they wake up
00:04:39until the minute they go to sleep,
00:04:40their day is accounted for what they eat,
00:04:42the workouts they do, everything is tracked,
00:04:45every metric, like everything is, to nothing.
00:04:49Like the silence is deafening when these people retire.
00:04:52And there's really no,
00:04:54you know, it's like when guys come back from war,
00:04:56the VA is like, okay, we got to watch this guy.
00:04:58We got to make sure we have support services for him.
00:05:01We got to help with transitions back to employment.
00:05:03We got to help make sure that the person's not dealing
00:05:05with post-traumatic stress in any way
00:05:06that could be dangerous to them or people around them.
00:05:09Athletes retire.
00:05:10There's very little support system put in place for them.
00:05:12And you assume, hey, guy's got $20 million, $50 million.
00:05:16He's going to be just fine.
00:05:17It's actually like giving them a loaded gun.
00:05:20Like they have too much money, too many people around them.
00:05:23And now they feel like the thing they devoted
00:05:26their entire young thriving life to is gone.
00:05:30And if you think that coaching a high school basketball team
00:05:35after you've played in the NBA is going to be satisfying,
00:05:40you're kidding yourself.
00:05:41What's that got to do with divorce?
00:05:43- Well, I think the dissatisfaction
00:05:44that you feel in your own...
00:05:45Look, I think most discord in relationships,
00:05:49romantic relationships is a function
00:05:50of your relationship with yourself.
00:05:52And the fact that you are feeling restless,
00:05:54you are feeling unsatisfied and it's incredibly easy
00:05:57to take that out on the people around you.
00:05:58I think we all know, you don't have to be
00:05:59a professional athlete to know
00:06:01that when you have a difficult day,
00:06:03your partner's right there.
00:06:04They're definitely doing something that could annoy you.
00:06:07It's probably something that when you were first dating,
00:06:09you thought was adorable.
00:06:10Like they snort when they laugh
00:06:11or they chew with their mouth open.
00:06:13And when you were first dating, you were like,
00:06:15"Oh my God, that's so cute, she does that."
00:06:16And now you're like, seriously,
00:06:17are you going to breathe through your nose like that all day?
00:06:19Like, because you're angry, you hate yourself at that moment.
00:06:23You hate your choices at that moment.
00:06:25So I think that's what's a function of, it's the proximity.
00:06:29- On the other side of the fence,
00:06:30what is the most difficult profession to negotiate with
00:06:34on the other side?
00:06:35Who do you not want to see on the other side of the docket?
00:06:38- I mean, it's who I see almost every day,
00:06:41which is I'm in New York city.
00:06:42So I'm finance, like everybody in finance.
00:06:45So hedge fund guys are a nightmare to have on the other side.
00:06:49They're also a nightmare to have as a client
00:06:50because they have no risk adversity.
00:06:52Like for these guys to be at the level that they're at,
00:06:55give me a quant guy any day.
00:06:58Like quant guys, they'll do the math.
00:07:00They'll look at the risk versus reward.
00:07:02They'll figure out exactly how many hours you've taken
00:07:04to do something and how much it would be.
00:07:05And they'll tell you like with the exact numbers,
00:07:07like, okay, if the offer ends up here, then offer this,
00:07:10and they give you like a whole roadmap that you go,
00:07:12this is incredible.
00:07:14But like hedge fund guys,
00:07:18guys who were traders back in the day,
00:07:20now that's sort of shifted a bit with technology.
00:07:23Those guys have no risk adversity whatsoever.
00:07:25And they also, they're risk tolerant, they're aggressive.
00:07:29I mean, I think if we did these guys' blood work,
00:07:31I think they'd have a lot of testosterone
00:07:32running through their blood
00:07:33because they have that intensity
00:07:36and like they're just not risk adverse
00:07:37and they're ready to like go to war.
00:07:39- Why is not being risk averse bad to face?
00:07:43- Well, it's not bad to face from a, you know,
00:07:46getting paid by the hour.
00:07:47Like they're gonna go to trial.
00:07:49Like they wanna roll the dice and go to trial.
00:07:51So usually what is the thing that disabuses people
00:07:54of the desire to go all the way through litigation?
00:07:56'Cause every divorce gets resolved.
00:07:58It gets resolved by, you know,
00:08:00mediation, negotiation, or litigation.
00:08:03And litigation is really what my specialty is,
00:08:06which is courtroom law.
00:08:07Like you don't, most people thankfully
00:08:09don't need someone like me.
00:08:10Like, you know, most divorces are done with a scalpel.
00:08:14I'm a chainsaw.
00:08:15Like my job is to go in and to go at your spouse, you know?
00:08:19So I'm there to cross examine this person.
00:08:21I'm there to like really do the courtroom piece of things.
00:08:24So thankfully the majority of divorce
00:08:26is you don't need someone like me.
00:08:28But when you do, it's because you have a adversary
00:08:32who is really coming at you.
00:08:35And the courtroom is an amazing place
00:08:37to sort of equalize that force.
00:08:39And it's sort of an embodiment of, you know,
00:08:41the world needs bad men.
00:08:42We keep the other bad men from the door, you know?
00:08:44- Interesting.
00:08:46What do people not understand about how prenups work?
00:08:48- I think the biggest thing people don't understand
00:08:50is that everyone has a prenup.
00:08:52Everyone, every person who's married has a prenup.
00:08:55It's either one that was written by the government
00:08:58and can be changed by the government
00:08:59at any time without your notice.
00:09:01And that once the government changes it,
00:09:04you can't opt out of this anymore.
00:09:07So it's a contract that one person can change
00:09:10and you can't do anything about.
00:09:11Or it's a contract written by the two people
00:09:14that claim to love each other
00:09:15more than the other 8 billion options in the world.
00:09:18Because what is a prenup?
00:09:19A prenup's a contract.
00:09:21What is it a contract of?
00:09:22It's a contract of, if this marriage ends,
00:09:25'cause every marriage ends,
00:09:26it either ends in death or divorce.
00:09:28So technically, like when someone gets married,
00:09:31really what you want to say is I hope this ends in death.
00:09:33It's weird like that,
00:09:35but I really hope your marriage ends in death.
00:09:37Because every marriage ends, it ends in death or divorce.
00:09:40So if your marriage ends in something other than death,
00:09:43if you don't want to talk about divorce, great.
00:09:45If our marriage ends in something other than death,
00:09:48then what will be the rule set that governs
00:09:53how we divide our assets, what we owe each other?
00:09:56What will that be?
00:09:58So every marriage has that.
00:10:00It's either done by the government
00:10:03or it's done by the two people.
00:10:04- What do you mean when you say done by the government?
00:10:06- Well, the government creates laws
00:10:08like the domestic relations law, the Family Court Act.
00:10:10Like every state, every country has its own laws
00:10:13that govern the dissolution of a marriage.
00:10:16Just like they have laws that govern in test to see
00:10:18if someone dies without a will.
00:10:19Just like they have laws that govern criminal,
00:10:21like what is criminal conduct and what isn't.
00:10:23So we don't realize or think about the fact
00:10:27that when you marry someone,
00:10:29you are doing the most legally significant thing
00:10:31you will ever do other than dying.
00:10:33It is the most legally significant.
00:10:35It has wide range effects on your property ownership,
00:10:39your participation in the title system,
00:10:41your rights and obligations when it comes to spousal support
00:10:44or child support, your inheritance rights.
00:10:46I mean, it has massive repercussions.
00:10:48By the way, you don't even get a pamphlet
00:10:50when you get married.
00:10:51Like nothing, not even a brochure that says,
00:10:53by the way, here's all of the things
00:10:55that just happened legally
00:10:56when you entered into this contract with us,
00:10:59meaning you and this person and the state.
00:11:02Because it's really the state.
00:11:03Like you're meeting someone and saying fundamentally,
00:11:07you're my favorite person.
00:11:09Out of 8 billion people, you're my favorite person.
00:11:11You're the one I like the most.
00:11:13You're the one I want to be with and spend time with
00:11:15and hold hands with.
00:11:16And when the bad things are happening,
00:11:17we'll support each other.
00:11:18And when good things are there, we'll share it together.
00:11:20And you're my favorite person.
00:11:22And this is going so well.
00:11:25Let's get the government involved.
00:11:27Which to me--
00:11:28- The threesome with the government.
00:11:29- Which if you've ever been to the DMV,
00:11:32like I've never gone into the DMV and gone like,
00:11:35oh yeah, yeah, these people should be in charge of everything.
00:11:37This is fucking great.
00:11:38- This should be the third party at the most.
00:11:39- This is the best and brightest the world has to offer
00:11:42in this building.
00:11:43Like, so let's let them make the rule set.
00:11:46- You mentioned states there.
00:11:47What's the weirdest state for divorce law?
00:11:53- I mean, every state has its own wacky proclivities.
00:11:57And each of them have their own.
00:11:58And see the things that would be weird to me
00:12:01are evidentiary rules.
00:12:03Like there's rules in New York state
00:12:04that if a person is a Department of Social Services
00:12:07or Child Protective Services worker,
00:12:10that the concept of hearsay doesn't apply to them.
00:12:14So hearsay meaning, hearsay is defined as a statement
00:12:17made by someone other than the declarant
00:12:20while testifying at trial.
00:12:21And it's offered into evidence to prove
00:12:23the truth of the matter asserted.
00:12:24That's the Black's Law Dictionary definition.
00:12:26But basically what it means is you get on the stand
00:12:28and say what someone else said to you for the truth of it.
00:12:31So like, if we're trying to prove that this can is white,
00:12:35you get on the stand and say, well, I was talking to Brian
00:12:39and he said that the can Jim was holding is white, okay?
00:12:42So I can't now confront Brian.
00:12:45And so you're testifying to what someone else told you
00:12:48for the truth of the matter asserted.
00:12:50There's a reason why we call it the right for confrontation.
00:12:53In every jurisdiction, you're allowed to confront,
00:12:56'cause otherwise trials would be like,
00:12:57I talked to this guy who talked to this girl
00:12:59who once said Brian cheated on his wife.
00:13:01And that's suddenly evidence to prove
00:13:02that Brian cheated on his wife.
00:13:04So that is a really sacred rule in the legal system.
00:13:07But in New York, we have this rule that says
00:13:09that if a Child Protective Services worker
00:13:11has done an investigation, anything they say,
00:13:15quoting people is not hearsay.
00:13:18So they can come in and say,
00:13:19well, I talked to the teacher who said
00:13:20that she heard from someone that, you know,
00:13:22the children were being beaten.
00:13:23And that's evidence as if that person got in
00:13:26and you can never cross-examine it
00:13:27because it's third party.
00:13:29So every jurisdiction has some weird ass rule like that.
00:13:33There's plenty of states that have weird rules,
00:13:36like weird laws on the books.
00:13:38Like there's plenty of jurisdictions in the United States
00:13:42where consensual sodomy remains a crime.
00:13:46So sodomy meaning like oral sex,
00:13:48like sex other than penetrative,
00:13:50penile, vaginal sex is a crime.
00:13:53- So including gay sex.
00:13:55- Including gay sex, but also heterosexual blow jobs
00:13:58are illegal in some jurisdictions.
00:13:59- Hand jobs?
00:14:01- Hand jobs would be consensual sodomy, yes.
00:14:03'Cause it would be-
00:14:04- Hand jobs.
00:14:05- A hand job.
00:14:06Well, first of all, hand jobs,
00:14:06I mean, hand jobs are outdated technology.
00:14:08It's like a beta max.
00:14:09Like who even does that anymore?
00:14:10- I disagree.
00:14:11I think that bringing back hand jobs and fingering is a-
00:14:14- Fingering, I think you could go,
00:14:16you could make a solid argument, but hand jobs, really?
00:14:18Why do you need a third party for that?
00:14:20It feels like you could do that yourself.
00:14:22What am I, can you grown up, just use your mouth?
00:14:25How does that happen? - Calorie conservation.
00:14:26I didn't, look, I think-
00:14:27- Wow.
00:14:28This is a hot debate.
00:14:29I did not expect we were gonna have this one, but okay.
00:14:31- I think a great question that everybody should ask
00:14:33is when was the last time you just got a hand job
00:14:35or just got fingered?
00:14:36Like that is, that I think tells you a lot
00:14:40about what's going on in your life.
00:14:41There is a cornucopia.
00:14:41- I gotta make plans this weekend.
00:14:43- There is a cornucopia of different things
00:14:45that you could do. - There is, yeah.
00:14:46- And look at how much you're missing in it.
00:14:47You know what, there's a lot of things that like,
00:14:50I loved them when I was younger
00:14:52and I haven't had them in a while.
00:14:53- Papa John's.
00:14:54How long has it been since you went to a Papa John's?
00:14:56- Probably same night I had a hand job.
00:14:57(laughing)
00:14:59I mean, the Papa John's hand job combo.
00:15:01When you got 20 bucks in your pocket,
00:15:03that's about as good as it gets.
00:15:05That's, wow.
00:15:06You know what, I'm gonna get a Papa John's and a hand job.
00:15:09That is well done.
00:15:10- It is Valentine's Day.
00:15:11Think about how many people this evening are thinking,
00:15:13darling, we did have this lovely steakhouse booked
00:15:16and you had the lingerie, I'm really thinking about
00:15:18a reluctant look away hand job and a slice of pizza.
00:15:21- I mean, you know what, but that's a throwback jam.
00:15:24You know what I mean?
00:15:25Like you put on Nelly Houghton here, I'm into it.
00:15:26So like go back to the '90s,
00:15:29go back earlier than that. - Sodomy.
00:15:31- Consensual sodomy.
00:15:32All right, there it is, yeah.
00:15:34- A quick aside.
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00:15:45They support brain function.
00:15:46Maybe I should take more.
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00:15:48improve heart health, and are backed by hundreds of studies.
00:15:51But here's the thing, all omega-3s are not made the same.
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00:16:45Going back to prenups, is there a correlation
00:16:49between prenups and divorce likelihood?
00:16:52So, there's no way to track that, because--
00:16:54Select an effect.
00:16:55Well, yeah, well, and also because
00:16:58prenups aren't filed anywhere.
00:16:59So, a prenup is a contract.
00:17:01It's usually, you have a copy of it in your safe,
00:17:04your spouse has it in their safe,
00:17:05and the two lawyers have it in their safe.
00:17:07And people lie all the time about having prenups,
00:17:09particularly celebrities, because I have seen celebrities
00:17:13being interviewed about their forthcoming wedding,
00:17:15and asked explicitly, "Did you guys decide to do a prenup?"
00:17:19And they go, "No, absolutely not."
00:17:20And I'm like, "It's in my safe.
00:17:22They signed it at my conference room table.
00:17:24That's absolute bullshit."
00:17:26But attorney-client privilege protects it.
00:17:29It's only going to be filed somewhere if you divorce,
00:17:32and matrimonial files are sealed files,
00:17:34so the public can't just view them.
00:17:36So, if you've ever seen any people's divorce papers,
00:17:38it's because somebody leaked them.
00:17:39So, prenups, what I will tell you is,
00:17:42I have a theory, and it's kind of unfalsifiable,
00:17:45but the theory is,
00:17:46'cause I've been a divorce lawyer for 25 years,
00:17:48I've probably done,
00:17:50I've done hundreds, if not thousands now, of prenups.
00:17:54And usually a prenup is a very friendly transaction,
00:17:56because it's a negotiation,
00:17:58but it's not the kind of hardcore negotiation you have
00:18:00at the end of a marriage.
00:18:02It's much more, these are two people who like each other,
00:18:04they have an abundance of optimism.
00:18:05Theoretically, you're catching them in a moment
00:18:07where they like each other a whole lot,
00:18:09'cause they're about to get married.
00:18:10So, at the end of the transaction,
00:18:12they still feel really good about you.
00:18:14And it's not an expensive thing.
00:18:15You don't burn a lot of money doing a prenup.
00:18:16Like the most expensive prenup I think I've ever done
00:18:19was probably 10, $15,000,
00:18:20which the retainer to start a divorce is 25 to $50,000.
00:18:25So, it's not a big profit thing for lawyers.
00:18:29And what I will say is, very few,
00:18:33of the hundreds, if not thousands of prenups I've done,
00:18:36I think I've only done three divorces
00:18:38for someone who I did a prenup for.
00:18:40So, that would beg the question,
00:18:43are they going to a different lawyer
00:18:46for the prenup divorce, right?
00:18:48They did their prenup with me,
00:18:50but they're gonna go to someone else for the divorce.
00:18:52If that was something people did,
00:18:54I would have people coming to me getting divorces
00:18:57who had prenups done by someone else.
00:19:01That doesn't happen.
00:19:02So, this leads me to believe my theory,
00:19:05which is that people who get prenups
00:19:07usually don't get divorced.
00:19:08I think, and I actually think that makes sense to me
00:19:11because the level of open, vulnerable, brave conversation
00:19:16you have to have to negotiate
00:19:20and discuss the terms of a prenup,
00:19:23if you have that and you have that ability
00:19:25to say to your partner something
00:19:27that might upset them in the short term,
00:19:29but is important in the long term
00:19:31for both of you to feel safe,
00:19:33I think that that's a very useful skill
00:19:35and probably bodes well for the relationship.
00:19:37I see a lot of people that break up in the prenup process.
00:19:42- That was what I wanted to ask.
00:19:44So, let's say that someone wants a prenup with their partner.
00:19:47When do they broach it?
00:19:48Pre-engagement, straight after the Bachelorette party?
00:19:51How would you go about it?
00:19:52- Personally, I think third date.
00:19:54Like, I think, I'm not kidding.
00:19:56I think that there's plenty of ways
00:19:57to safely enter that discussion.
00:19:59Talk about celebrity that's getting married.
00:20:02I wonder if they have a prenup.
00:20:03Oh, Travis and Taylor, I wonder if they're having a prenup.
00:20:06Start getting the temperature of this person as to,
00:20:08well, I would never have a prenup.
00:20:09Or saying, oh, I'm sure they do.
00:20:11It's a smart, I mean, they're both smart business people.
00:20:12Why wouldn't they have a prenup?
00:20:14Like, start to get the feeling of what this person's,
00:20:17or are they just dead silent on it,
00:20:19which tells you something that's silence.
00:20:21So, that's phase one.
00:20:22Phase two is, as soon as you start talking,
00:20:24listen, what should you be talking about?
00:20:27Do you want to have kids?
00:20:28Do you not want to have kids?
00:20:29How do you feel?
00:20:30Are you a dog person, a cat person,
00:20:31or I don't like pets person?
00:20:33Where do you want to live geographically?
00:20:35How important is your family to you?
00:20:36When your family, your parents became elderly,
00:20:38would you want them to move in with us?
00:20:40These are the big life questions people should be asking
00:20:44when they're considering whether or not
00:20:46they want to marry somebody.
00:20:47So, I think a question like,
00:20:50hey, how do you feel about things like a prenup?
00:20:54How do you feel about how the state handles
00:20:58when people end their marriages?
00:20:59I think that's a useful dialogue to have.
00:21:02To me, you can't feel loved if you don't feel safe.
00:21:05I mean, genuinely loved if you don't feel safe.
00:21:08And I say that because I've represented countless victims
00:21:10of intimate partner abuse and domestic violence.
00:21:12And I say it because I've represented people
00:21:15who in their relationship felt like intimacy
00:21:17was going to get weaponized against them.
00:21:19And in fact, did get weaponized against them.
00:21:21And to really love someone well,
00:21:23I think you have to be incredibly vulnerable.
00:21:25I think you have to give yourself,
00:21:27you have to show this person your soft spots.
00:21:29Like there's no other way.
00:21:30I mean, it's part of what I think makes love so brave
00:21:33because it's only brave if you're scared
00:21:35and you do it anyway, you know?
00:21:37And I think that to love anything is insane
00:21:40because to love anything is to basically open yourself
00:21:44to the inevitability of losing it,
00:21:46whether it's a pet or whether it's another human being.
00:21:48Like you're basically saying, I'm going to let you hurt me.
00:21:51I'm going to lose you someday,
00:21:53but it's going to be worth it
00:21:54because I'm going to have this time with you.
00:21:56I'm going to have this connection with you.
00:21:58But I think that part of feeling love is feeling safe.
00:22:00And I think a prenup is about how do we both feel safe?
00:22:04If I'm wealthy and you're not,
00:22:06if I'm the Goldman Sachs partner
00:22:08and you're the beautiful yoga teacher who I've fallen for,
00:22:12there's a tremendous polarity there
00:22:13that's probably really beautiful.
00:22:15She's probably going to help him calm down
00:22:18and breathe and live life a little bit.
00:22:20And he's going to help her be a little more focused
00:22:22and help her be a little more serious.
00:22:24And maybe he has the resources to help her out.
00:22:26Like this is the tale as old as time.
00:22:28Like this is, you know,
00:22:29the nature of male and female couplings.
00:22:31So in that dynamic,
00:22:34I don't think there's anything wrong with him saying,
00:22:36hey, I want to feel like if we split up,
00:22:39you're not going to just literally come at me
00:22:41for every single thing you possibly can get.
00:22:44And she should be able to say, hey, if we split up,
00:22:48I want to feel like I'm not going to be so far behind
00:22:52in the race.
00:22:53Like, cause you know, you can't be running a marathon
00:22:55and at mile 10, take a half an hour break
00:22:57and then jump back in and never catch up
00:22:59with the people ahead of you.
00:23:00Like you've lost it.
00:23:01And we call that in the law
00:23:02diminished lifetime earning capacity.
00:23:03So there's, you know, I'm making choices
00:23:06where I can keep being a yoga teacher
00:23:08and not worry about the fact that,
00:23:09okay, I've got to like make money
00:23:10so I can buy a place someday or whatever it might be.
00:23:12So I'm going to trust you.
00:23:14So again, does that mean you're entitled
00:23:15to half of every single thing I have?
00:23:17Most people, if they're being honest would say,
00:23:20yeah, I don't know that I'm entitled to that,
00:23:22but I think I'm entitled to something.
00:23:24Or even if I'm not entitled to it,
00:23:26wouldn't you want me to feel like safe and loved, you know?
00:23:30And that's the time to have that conversation.
00:23:33Like the worst time to learn how to fight is in a fight.
00:23:37Like the worst time to learn what happened legally
00:23:41when you got married and what your rights
00:23:42and obligations are in the event of a divorce
00:23:44is in a consultation in my office
00:23:47when you're getting divorced.
00:23:48But that's when most people learn it.
00:23:50- What's the game plan for delivering
00:23:52a prenup proposal well?
00:23:54- I think what I'm pushing,
00:23:58and if there's something that I can say
00:24:00at the end of my life I did,
00:24:01I hope it's that I normalized prenups.
00:24:04And I hope that the phrase that really entered the lexicon
00:24:07is every marriage has a prenup.
00:24:10I think that is the best entry point
00:24:12is to essentially say all a prenup is is a rule set.
00:24:17And the rule set should be clear to anyone
00:24:19before they enter anything, right?
00:24:21Like I want to understand the rules
00:24:22before I get on the road I want to know
00:24:23what's the speed limit,
00:24:24what side of the road do we drive on?
00:24:26You know, before there's anything I do
00:24:28I like to have a little bit of information
00:24:30about what it is I'm about to do.
00:24:32I think the prenup conversation is a conversation
00:24:35about saying hey, I trust you, you trust me.
00:24:39We have an abundance of goodwill towards each other.
00:24:41Let's right now, while we're this crazy about each other,
00:24:45say how can we make each other feel safe?
00:24:48'Cause here's the thing, I have been in love
00:24:51and I think I have the self-awareness
00:24:56to say to a woman, you know,
00:25:00I want to protect you from people that hurt you
00:25:04even if that someone's me.
00:25:05Like there's a chance I'm going to hurt you.
00:25:09Like there's a chance I'm going to make you sad.
00:25:10There's a chance I'm going to disappoint you.
00:25:12There's a chance this isn't going to work out.
00:25:15Like I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear,
00:25:18but like I've seen, I've lived too much life
00:25:20and seen too many people have their hearts broken
00:25:22and I've had my heart broken and I've broken someone's heart.
00:25:25So I know that's a possibility,
00:25:27but I love you enough to know
00:25:30that if I'm in a relationship with you,
00:25:31there's an assumption of risk
00:25:33and that is we might hurt each other.
00:25:35So if anyone would hurt you,
00:25:37I want to protect you including me.
00:25:39So what do you need to feel safe in this relationship?
00:25:41That to me feels like the entry point.
00:25:43- Are agreements for behaviors during the marriage
00:25:48becoming more common now?
00:25:50- They are, but the question of enforceability
00:25:52is very challenging.
00:25:53I mean, look, I love it.
00:25:55I love when people,
00:25:55I think people should have more open conversations
00:25:58about the nature of the economy of marriage.
00:26:01Like I get looked at funny when I refer to marriage
00:26:03as an economy, but--
00:26:04- Sounds a bit sort of sterile and--
00:26:06- But it doesn't have to.
00:26:08Like an economy is really any exchange of value.
00:26:11You know, it's a system that has an exchange of value
00:26:14within it.
00:26:14And so I think part of the reason why we've lost the plot
00:26:18a little bit in modern relationships
00:26:19is that we've stopped looking at them as an economy.
00:26:22Because to dare say, well, you bring warmth and comfort
00:26:26and I bring resources is like,
00:26:27well, I could bring warmth and comfort,
00:26:28well, I could bring resources.
00:26:30Okay, you're right.
00:26:31We can all be the exact same generic cog
00:26:33in the capitalist machine.
00:26:35We can all decide we want to be girl bosses or boss bosses
00:26:39or whatever we want to call it,
00:26:39or we can all stay home and change diapers.
00:26:42This is something we can all do.
00:26:43Great, is that what we want?
00:26:45Do we want a world where everyone's doing the same thing
00:26:47even if they don't like,
00:26:48I love to cook.
00:26:50And if she loves to cook, great,
00:26:53maybe we'll take turns cooking.
00:26:54But if I love to cook and she doesn't love to cook,
00:26:57why should it be, well, why should I do 100% of it?
00:27:00Because you like to fucking cook.
00:27:02So just cook, like, what is that about?
00:27:04It shouldn't have to be
00:27:05that we both have to do the exact same thing
00:27:07or else there's an inequality between us.
00:27:09I'm interested in equity in a relationship.
00:27:11Does either person feel they're being taken advantage of?
00:27:13Giving way too much consistently?
00:27:16Taking too little consistently?
00:27:18Because again, there's going to be times in any relationship
00:27:21where you're giving more or getting more.
00:27:23You know, you have family tragedies,
00:27:25you have things that happen,
00:27:26you have stress going on at work.
00:27:28You're going to be taking more in that moment.
00:27:30Is there a potential that if you litigate this in advance
00:27:34or put it down in black and white,
00:27:36that it reduces your ability to negotiate in the moment?
00:27:40I think so.
00:27:41Well, no, here's what I'll say.
00:27:42I think that it is-
00:27:43Do you understand what I'm saying?
00:27:44I do understand the question.
00:27:45I think that establishing a baseline is really important.
00:27:49And so establishing a baseline of look,
00:27:51here's what we're feeling and thinking right now.
00:27:53Throw a dart at the dartboard.
00:27:54That's kind of in the region of what we're aiming for.
00:27:57I think there are two fundamental
00:28:00and somewhat contradictory errors
00:28:02that people make when they're getting married
00:28:04or cohabitating for the first time.
00:28:06And they're going to sound like a contradiction,
00:28:07but I don't think they are.
00:28:08They think that this is going to change the person.
00:28:11You know, he drinks too much now,
00:28:12but like once we get married, he'll settle-
00:28:14You're in love with the potential.
00:28:15Right, and that somehow marriage will change
00:28:18or cohabitation will change things.
00:28:19You know, he's got a wandering eye now,
00:28:21but once we move in together, you know, she runs around,
00:28:24she's a bit of a party girl, but you know what?
00:28:25Once we get married, she'll settle down.
00:28:27So thinking that marriage will change this person
00:28:29is a mistake.
00:28:31Similarly, thinking marriage will prevent this person
00:28:33from changing is also a mistake.
00:28:35That marriage is going to build walls around this thing
00:28:39and it's going to stay this wonderful.
00:28:41Because like, think about it, there's you, there's me,
00:28:43and then there's we, right?
00:28:45And you were you and I was me.
00:28:48And then we met each other and all of a sudden we're like,
00:28:49man, we got this thing together.
00:28:51And then the we is like this warm, wonderful, lovely place.
00:28:54We've all been there.
00:28:55And it actually gets so big,
00:28:57it threatens to eat the you and the me completely,
00:28:59which is kind of a shame.
00:29:00Because now like the thing we fell in love with,
00:29:03the you and the me,
00:29:04like it's been subsumed entirely by this creature of we.
00:29:08So I think that's an unfortunate thing.
00:29:10We should probably be on the lookout to prevent happening.
00:29:13But if you think about like what brings people together
00:29:16is once they're together, now they go,
00:29:18okay, well, this is so good.
00:29:20I have to like build something around it.
00:29:22And maybe if I wear this ring, you know, that'll be,
00:29:25and it's like, okay, maybe if you like wear, you know,
00:29:27like this crystal, it'll keep you protected.
00:29:30Like it's not real.
00:29:31Like when my kids were little, I would take,
00:29:34rather than explain to them at 10 o'clock at night
00:29:36that monsters don't exist.
00:29:38I would go, okay, hold on.
00:29:40And I'd go get some powder from the thing.
00:29:42Okay, this is anti-monster powder.
00:29:44And now no monsters can enter your room.
00:29:45And they'd be like, oh, thank God.
00:29:46And they'd go to sleep.
00:29:48And so, but again, like that's a very human thing.
00:29:52Like, okay, this is all,
00:29:53what do you think a wedding ring is,
00:29:54but anti-monster powder.
00:29:55That's all it is.
00:29:56- Story myth.
00:29:58- Yeah.
00:29:59- Yeah, that's a...
00:30:00- So I think that we think that things,
00:30:03if we can bolster it the right way,
00:30:05that this thing will stay safe.
00:30:07And it won't, it'll change.
00:30:09But all I'm suggesting is,
00:30:11if you talk about baselines,
00:30:14now you know, hey, we were having sex twice a day,
00:30:19six days a week, early days.
00:30:22That's what you do.
00:30:22I get it, okay.
00:30:24You probably wouldn't get much done in life
00:30:26if that stayed the same 10 years in.
00:30:27And it might be exhausting.
00:30:28It sounds like a lot of cardio.
00:30:30So what you might say, hand job could be the answer.
00:30:33God, Papa John's in a hand job.
00:30:35All right, I'm on it.
00:30:37Happy Valentine's Day.
00:30:38So I think when you think about it that way
00:30:41and what you start to see is,
00:30:42okay, we've moved off the baseline.
00:30:44Now the question is, that's not necessarily bad.
00:30:48It's just, we've noticed it.
00:30:50Did we notice this?
00:30:51Okay, good, we've noticed it, great.
00:30:53Do we have to talk about it?
00:30:54Is there anything to talk about?
00:30:55No? Okay, great.
00:30:56Like is it, 'cause maybe it's our hormones have shifted
00:30:58or maybe, you know, we're just at a different place
00:31:00or maybe we got a baby now.
00:31:02But if one of us feels like, yeah, I kind of missed that
00:31:05or I feel things are a little different, great.
00:31:07Now we're having a conversation
00:31:09'cause we've measured our baseline.
00:31:10Again, like measure what matters.
00:31:11I think that that's a smart thing to do.
00:31:13- We'll get back to talking in just one second.
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00:32:14More and more I'm seeing people
00:32:16have open and transparent conversations
00:32:18at the beginning of a relationship about stuff like this.
00:32:20How do you feel about dogs?
00:32:22How would you raise the children at home for them?
00:32:24Would you put them in K through 12?
00:32:26How do you feel about prenups?
00:32:27How, what's your timeline for children?
00:32:29How many?
00:32:30And so on and so forth.
00:32:31And I think-
00:32:32- It's bad for my business model.
00:32:33- It sounds unromantic in some regards.
00:32:37It sounds slightly transactional, slightly sterile,
00:32:42a little bit like in a-
00:32:43- It's unromantic about that.
00:32:45I have to say when you say that,
00:32:47I think there is something incredibly romantic.
00:32:49- Well, me too, me too.
00:32:51But that's because you're showing up and you're saying,
00:32:53"Hey, look, this is what my vision of the future looks like."
00:32:57- Right.
00:32:58- I'm wondering whether or not
00:32:59you're going to be the dance partner to bring this to life.
00:33:03And if you're not, that's gonna be a shame,
00:33:05but this is the thing that I really want.
00:33:07And maybe you're gonna teach me some things about myself
00:33:09that I don't know, that I didn't know that I wanted.
00:33:11That's wonderful. - Right, right.
00:33:13- First off, and I really love what you said,
00:33:15which is if you're the sort of people
00:33:18who can talk about these things in a transparent way,
00:33:21the fact that you can have the conversation
00:33:22is maybe as valuable
00:33:25as the outcome of the conversation itself.
00:33:27- Absolutely.
00:33:28- You being able to have this sort of transparent, open,
00:33:31egoless, kind of shameful, vulnerable conversation.
00:33:35Hey, this is what my inner world looks like.
00:33:37I really like quiet mornings.
00:33:40And if I've noticed that sometimes you kind of,
00:33:44you're like real up and about on a morning.
00:33:45You like to play music and sing and dance and stuff.
00:33:47I find that kind of difficult to deal with.
00:33:49And you know, it happened on the first night
00:33:50that we stayed over together.
00:33:51And I'm just, is that an every night that,
00:33:54or like, were you just so excited for me?
00:33:55And I don't want to say,
00:33:56but maybe I'll be moving in that direction.
00:33:58But look, this is my set point.
00:33:59This is where we're starting off at.
00:34:01And there's this wonderful passage.
00:34:02I want you to read you this idea from Visakhan Verasamy.
00:34:05It's called "The Divorce Mystery."
00:34:08Why do so many people divorce someone
00:34:10they thought was their favorite person?
00:34:11It's not really a mystery.
00:34:13It's mostly because good times are a poor predictor
00:34:16of how you'll handle bad times.
00:34:18And handling bad times is a much more important contributor
00:34:22to the success of a marriage.
00:34:23But as a species, as a culture,
00:34:25we have not truly internalized this.
00:34:27It's the lows, not the highs
00:34:29that make or break a relationship.
00:34:30A painful lesson over the last 20 years of relationships
00:34:33is that in the medium run,
00:34:34it's exciting to feel hyped about people
00:34:37who seem to relate strongly in specific ways.
00:34:39But in the long run,
00:34:40it's really how you handle misunderstandings,
00:34:42conflict, confusion, disagreements that go the distance.
00:34:46What do you think of that?
00:34:47- I think it's absolutely true.
00:34:48I mean, I think Wittgenstein said
00:34:50that to know a thing, know its limits.
00:34:52When you push it to its, beyond its tolerance
00:34:54as its nature emerges.
00:34:55I think that, I think we have to see,
00:34:58it's the same reason why I always thought those shows
00:35:00like "The Bachelor" were hilarious
00:35:01or "Love Island" or any of them.
00:35:02I think they're funny because, you know,
00:35:05yeah, we get along really well in paradise.
00:35:08We get along really well
00:35:09when someone has put together a beautiful date for us
00:35:12with incredible food and lovely time.
00:35:14Like of course, yeah.
00:35:15How are we going to feel when we're home
00:35:17and one of us has a head cold and is in a bad mood?
00:35:19Like how is that going to look?
00:35:22Because look, you're going to see your partner
00:35:25without makeup and without Spanx most of the time.
00:35:28And when we're dating, we have Spanx on our personality.
00:35:32Like everything is sort of a compressed,
00:35:34very, you know, stylized version of things.
00:35:37And so I think there's tremendous value
00:35:39in seeing how does the organism handle stress?
00:35:44What do, when we're both stressed, what does that look like?
00:35:49But I also think that can be very romantic
00:35:52because again, for me, and I talked about this
00:35:55on Andrew's show, you know, I think,
00:35:59I don't think our greatest fear
00:36:02is that we won't find someone to love.
00:36:04I think our greatest fear is that we are not worthy of love,
00:36:08that we believe that we're not worthy of love.
00:36:11I think that I know for me, I have in my life felt
00:36:16if you say you love me, like you say you're my friend,
00:36:24but if you saw the ugliness in me,
00:36:27if you could hear the thoughts in my head,
00:36:30the weakness in me, all the parts of myself,
00:36:33the shit I need to work on,
00:36:36because I'm presenting to the world
00:36:37the best version of myself as often as I can.
00:36:41And I really believe, like I'm not religious,
00:36:44but if there was a devil,
00:36:46I believe that the devil's principle function
00:36:48would be to convince us that we are so bestial
00:36:51that God couldn't possibly love us.
00:36:53Because I think our realest fear
00:36:55is that we're not worthy of love because we're awful,
00:36:58because we're in here and we hear all the things
00:37:00we think and feel and all the weakness in us.
00:37:03And there is something about the thought
00:37:07of someone seeing all of that and saying,
00:37:12"Oh no, I love you."
00:37:14Like, I love all of that.
00:37:15- Or maybe I even love you more because of it.
00:37:17- Right, I love you all the more because you're so human,
00:37:19you're so real.
00:37:20And by the way, I have all of this in me too.
00:37:24And so maybe we'll see each other's blind spots
00:37:28because I can't learn everything I need to know
00:37:30about myself from myself.
00:37:32So like, I need people to see my blind spots.
00:37:35So there's some things to me
00:37:38about in this increasingly performative social media culture
00:37:42that we're living in,
00:37:43we're encouraged all the time
00:37:45to present the best version of ourselves
00:37:47and sort of put our greatest hits out there
00:37:49while everyone else is living their gag reel.
00:37:52And then when we're loved, like, do you feel that love?
00:37:56Really, do you feel it?
00:37:58Or do you just go, "Oh yeah, they bought it.
00:37:59"They bought the character that I'm selling to them."
00:38:01So there's something about conversations
00:38:04where you have to say, look, this is what I'm scared of.
00:38:07Like, this is what scares the shit out of me.
00:38:10Like, this is the part of me I don't understand.
00:38:12This is, I react this way when this happens,
00:38:15I don't know why.
00:38:16This turns me on, am I gross for that?
00:38:20Like, why does that turn me on?
00:38:22Like, I don't, you know, like all the,
00:38:23and to be able to say that and have the other person go,
00:38:26oh, I get that, like, I got my stuff like that too.
00:38:29Maybe not the exact same stuff,
00:38:30but I got my stuff like that too.
00:38:32And to have that person see all of that and love you anyway,
00:38:35to me, that's love worth having.
00:38:37That's love worth signing on for.
00:38:39- How should people argue well
00:38:41if the lows, not the highs,
00:38:42determine the success of a relationship?
00:38:45What does good disagreement and argument look like?
00:38:48- I think good disagreement, I argue for a living.
00:38:51So I would say that good disagreement is substantive.
00:38:54It gets to the merit of the position.
00:38:56It gets to the substance of what we're talking about.
00:38:59You know, it's not about the pasta.
00:39:02It's not about the dirty dish in the sink.
00:39:04It's about what the dirty dish in the sink represents,
00:39:06which is you're not really paying attention to my feelings.
00:39:09You know that I like things to be orderly
00:39:12and you weren't willing to take a few minutes to do this thing.
00:39:15So I would like to get to the substance of the argument.
00:39:18I think the most important thing in romantic relationships
00:39:20and marriages is do not ever weaponize intimacy.
00:39:25Like intimacy, not meaning sexual intimacy.
00:39:29Intimacy by definition is the ability
00:39:32to be completely yourself with another person.
00:39:34So that's what we were just talking about.
00:39:35The sense of like showing this person
00:39:37all your soft targets, you know.
00:39:39And if you then use those to hurt the other person
00:39:44when they've upset you,
00:39:47or as leverage when you want them to do something,
00:39:50that's a villainous thing to do.
00:39:52Because A, you can't take that back.
00:39:55And B, that person has shown you that part of themselves.
00:39:59Like every single couple,
00:40:01any person who's listening to this, who's in a couple,
00:40:05there is a sentence that you know you could say
00:40:08to your partner that would have them shriveled up
00:40:12in a ball crying.
00:40:13- Give me some examples of this weaponizing intimacy.
00:40:16- That you know that a person is terrified of the fact
00:40:19that they're becoming like their mother or their father.
00:40:22Or that they're, I mean, you know,
00:40:24the film A Marriage Story, there's actually a great scene.
00:40:26It was Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson.
00:40:29It should have been called a divorce story.
00:40:30But there's an amazing Academy Award level scene
00:40:34where they're having this awful fight
00:40:36and they just do that.
00:40:38They just unload in like weaponized intimacy.
00:40:43He's like, you're exactly like your mother.
00:40:46You claim you hate her,
00:40:47but you bring everyone down in all the same ways.
00:40:50And they just run and they're saying things
00:40:53that you can never unsay, you know.
00:40:55But they're the things that like you only would know
00:40:59if this person opened themselves to you
00:41:01the way that you have to,
00:41:02to have a deep connection to someone.
00:41:04Or if you just had a ringside seat to their most vulnerable,
00:41:07sad moments.
00:41:08And so that kind of thing,
00:41:12I don't think you can ever really recover.
00:41:14- So don't do that.
00:41:15- Don't engage in weaponized intimacy.
00:41:17The other thing I would say is also, again,
00:41:20the worst time to learn how to fight
00:41:21is when you're in a fight.
00:41:22So just, I think when you're in a relationship
00:41:25or starting a relationship
00:41:26or getting serious enough in a relationship
00:41:28that now you're saying your boyfriend, girlfriend,
00:41:29or wherever it might be,
00:41:31I don't think there's anything wrong with saying,
00:41:32look, we're definitely going to get in an argument someday.
00:41:35Like we're going to get in a fight someday.
00:41:36It's probably going to be my fault.
00:41:38I'm going to say something dumb.
00:41:38I say dumb shit all the time.
00:41:40So I apologize in advance,
00:41:41but I'm going to say something.
00:41:42It's going to upset you.
00:41:42We're going to get in an argument.
00:41:44How do you like to argue?
00:41:46Like, do you need a minute?
00:41:48Like, should I give you a minute so you can calm down?
00:41:50- Go on a hug.
00:41:51- Right, should I never say calm down?
00:41:53Should I change the subject and be silly
00:41:55and pick you up and hug you and spin you around?
00:41:58Should I say something?
00:41:59Should we have a code word that it's like,
00:42:01hey, let's take a break because this is going wrong.
00:42:03And then we'll meet back in 10 minutes.
00:42:06Or are you the like,
00:42:07we've got to get this worked out tonight
00:42:08because I can't go to bed angry
00:42:09and we have to figure this out
00:42:10because it's going to ruminate and get really bad.
00:42:12Like whatever it is,
00:42:13let's just talk about what that should look like
00:42:15and let's have some way to step back from it.
00:42:19- Can I give you a perspective from attachment theory
00:42:22and some evolutionary science that might be useful here?
00:42:24So there's a book called Your Brain Unloved by Stan Tadkin.
00:42:27It's in my second reading list.
00:42:28And he explains how in couples that are having arguments,
00:42:33you want to deal with the argument as quickly as possible
00:42:40and ideally within three minutes.
00:42:42So you're sat at a dinner table
00:42:43and your partner says something that's a bit dismissive
00:42:46or mocking and you feel like,
00:42:48oh, that made me feel a bit put out.
00:42:50I mean, they're my friends.
00:42:51These are my friends.
00:42:52And you just said something you want as quickly as possible
00:42:56from that to say, honey, can we just have a quick,
00:42:59and you need to agree this in advance.
00:43:02You don't need to fix the argument.
00:43:04You don't need to sort it,
00:43:05but you need to deal with it to bring the temperature down.
00:43:07And the reason that he gives for this
00:43:09is that the way that the human attachment system
00:43:12creates memories,
00:43:14if you don't deal with it sufficiently quickly,
00:43:16you risk moving it from short-term memory
00:43:18into long-term memory.
00:43:19When it moves into long-term memory,
00:43:20he describes it as you begin to see your partner
00:43:23as a predator and it's the same brain structures
00:43:26that are activated.
00:43:27And that is very perilous.
00:43:30That's where that sort of stomach twisting,
00:43:33like you've got a wet rag that's being pulsed
00:43:35inside of your chest.
00:43:37Oh, oh, that's that, that's that.
00:43:39- Very powerful.
00:43:41The danger I would say in response to that though,
00:43:44there's a chapter in my book called Hit Send Now.
00:43:46And it describes a way of approaching this kind of a thing.
00:43:50But it would not do it that quickly
00:43:52because here's the evolutionary biology basis of that,
00:43:56I think is a strong one.
00:43:57But I would also push back and say
00:44:00that even if you in advance agree,
00:44:04when that happens, we're gonna have a code word
00:44:06or something we can say that means we got to go out
00:44:08and talk about this for a minute
00:44:09so it doesn't turn into long-term memory.
00:44:12The act of verbal engagement on that
00:44:15is going to, 'cause I argue for a living,
00:44:18I like to think a lot about how will people react
00:44:20to what is being said.
00:44:21And I think you're setting it up
00:44:23for a defensive reaction in your partner.
00:44:25Now look, if in advance you sufficiently have
00:44:27enough goodwill between the two of you that you agree,
00:44:29anything I say, we're gonna really try
00:44:31not to hear it defensively because we have this,
00:44:34right, but that's an aspirational goal.
00:44:36And it's hard when--
00:44:37- In the moment, someone's just said,
00:44:39I didn't even mean it.
00:44:39What do you mean?
00:44:40I was just making a joke.
00:44:41- And we've got friends in the other room.
00:44:42Like we can't spend a minute, you know, too long doing this.
00:44:44Hit Send Now, what I talk about is send an email.
00:44:49I know that sounds impersonal,
00:44:50but the thing about sending an email is I can be thoughtful
00:44:52in the way that I put it together.
00:44:54And there will be an understanding between us
00:44:56that if the subject heading is hitting Send Now,
00:44:59that this is one of those emails that I just wanna say this.
00:45:01You don't have to respond immediately.
00:45:03I want you to just, so again, in your partner reading it,
00:45:07they don't have to immediately engage
00:45:09like they would in a verbal discussion.
00:45:11So this is a feeling of, okay, I want you to digest this.
00:45:14I'm gonna have written it, which means I'm going
00:45:15to have been careful about how I wrote it and rewrote it
00:45:18and paid attention to what I was saying.
00:45:20And now you're gonna hear it and read it and digest it.
00:45:24And because I think the value of it
00:45:25is it prevents these little things
00:45:27from turning into much, much larger things.
00:45:30- The principle is the same.
00:45:31- Yeah, the principle is the same.
00:45:32The speed is the problem because I find that what happens
00:45:37is people get so wildly defensive that, you know,
00:45:41and I see this all the time with the, well, you know,
00:45:43we're not having sex as much as we used to.
00:45:45Okay, what is that gonna go?
00:45:47Well, you're not home as much.
00:45:48Well, I'm not home 'cause I'm working.
00:45:49Well, I'm working 'cause you spend so damn much money.
00:45:51Well, I spend so much money 'cause you're never around.
00:45:53And now it's like the truth's at the bottom
00:45:54of a bottomless pit and we're all just getting no closer.
00:45:57- It's very hard to pick that needle off the record as well
00:46:00once it begins spinning.
00:46:01- Well, and there are ways to, look,
00:46:03I think a lot as a trial lawyer about how do I tell,
00:46:05it's full-contact storytelling what I do for a living.
00:46:08So when I think about what's the way to say this,
00:46:11think of the difference if your partner says,
00:46:13why aren't we having sex as much as we used to?
00:46:16Or man, it sucks we're not having sex as much as we used to.
00:46:19And your partner saying,
00:46:21God, you know what I was thinking about yesterday?
00:46:23I drove past that restaurant,
00:46:25remember we went out to that restaurant
00:46:26when we were first dating
00:46:27and then we went back to my apartment
00:46:29and we literally stayed in bed for a day and a half.
00:46:32That was so much for, what a God,
00:46:33I think about that sometimes even now.
00:46:36I love when we're that physically close.
00:46:37Okay, now I have primed the pump.
00:46:40Like now I have reminded you
00:46:42of when we were deeply physically connected.
00:46:45I have brought you back to that place.
00:46:47I've praised you for, God, remember how good that was?
00:46:50Remember how much, boy, I still love that about you.
00:46:53I love that feeling of when we're physically connected.
00:46:56Now, if I say, you know,
00:46:59I know I've been running around a lot lately and busy at work
00:47:01but we got to really make some time
00:47:02to like just spend some time rolling around in bed together
00:47:05'cause I still think you're just the hottest thing
00:47:07in the world.
00:47:08Okay, that is going to be perceived completely differently
00:47:11than why aren't we having sex like we used to.
00:47:13You know, you haven't given me a blow job in it.
00:47:14You haven't given me a hand job in ages.
00:47:16- When was the last time we went to Papa John's?
00:47:17- Yeah, for Papa John's for a hand job.
00:47:19This is, maybe a suit by Papa John's for this one.
00:47:22- What, I mean, that's so great.
00:47:23And to think as well,
00:47:25one of the best questions that you can ask any couple,
00:47:28how did you meet? - How'd you meet?
00:47:30- How'd you meet? Tell me how you met.
00:47:31Tell me what the first date was like.
00:47:33- And you can even have a couple
00:47:34that like they're at the dinner table with you guys
00:47:36and you can tell they had a fight on the way over.
00:47:38Like they got that weird tension.
00:47:40And if you do the, so how'd you guys meet?
00:47:43Within five minutes,
00:47:44there's a softness that hits both of them
00:47:46because it just puts them back to who they were,
00:47:47who they were to each other.
00:47:49When they were interested in interesting.
00:47:51- What are the important things
00:47:53that you think people should do
00:47:54at the start of a relationship to set it up for success?
00:47:57- I mean, my answer to almost everything is just talking.
00:48:00I just think, I think the more that you can talk about,
00:48:05I think when you can talk about
00:48:08how you're talking about things,
00:48:10I think that when you can like
00:48:13almost have a meta commentary happening of like,
00:48:16this is so weird, isn't it? It's scary.
00:48:18Oh, isn't this interesting what we're doing right now?
00:48:20Like really being able to talk about it
00:48:22almost in a detached fashion and narrative fashion.
00:48:25I think there's a lot of value in that.
00:48:27I think there's a lot of value in talking about
00:48:32like formative experiences that this person has had.
00:48:36And I think there are a lot of fun games
00:48:38that can be played around that.
00:48:40You know, there was an article some years ago,
00:48:42I forget who authored it,
00:48:44but it was about like 30 questions
00:48:46that can make two people fall in love.
00:48:48- Yeah, and it gets progressively more intense over time.
00:48:50Many of them are in the questions
00:48:52at chriswellx.com/valentines.
00:48:54- There you go.
00:48:55So I would say that those kinds of entry points,
00:48:57there's a lot.
00:48:58There's a card game now called Tails,
00:49:00which is very interesting.
00:49:02Steve from Diary of CEO has a great,
00:49:05you know, the Diary of CEO questions.
00:49:07Like there's a lot of really great like supplemental tools.
00:49:11That is a fun game.
00:49:13Like that game of like, you're a mystery to me.
00:49:15I'm a mystery to you in some ways.
00:49:17We've just started this relationship.
00:49:19We know we like the look of each other.
00:49:21We know we like some things about each other.
00:49:22There's an energy and electricity between us.
00:49:25So let's start playing in the world of ideas a little bit.
00:49:27Let's start playing in progressively showing,
00:49:31because look, what is dating,
00:49:34but progressively showing more of yourself to another person?
00:49:37And what have we lost in sort of hookup culture?
00:49:41We've lost that progressive revelation, that teasing,
00:49:45that sort of playing of like,
00:49:46I'm going to show you a little
00:49:47and then I'll show you a little more
00:49:48and I'm going to give you a little
00:49:49and then I'll give you a little more.
00:49:51And there's this feeling, okay,
00:49:52and I'm going to earn a little
00:49:54and then I'm going to earn a little more
00:49:55and I'll be rewarded for my efforts
00:49:57by a little bit of sweetness from you.
00:49:59And that's a fun dance that people have been doing
00:50:02for a really long time.
00:50:03And we gave it up in exchange for,
00:50:06I'm not sure what we got out of that.
00:50:08- Roy Baumeister says courtship is the period
00:50:10during which a woman works out if she can do better.
00:50:13- Yeah.
00:50:14- Which I think is-
00:50:15- Yeah, but it also sparks something in men
00:50:20that I think we like.
00:50:21Something-
00:50:22- That drive, dude.
00:50:23- The challenge and drive of-
00:50:25- That drive to win, man.
00:50:26- Yeah, and I feel like we've couched that now
00:50:29as like a toxic masculinity, but I don't know.
00:50:32I feel like-
00:50:33- Go fuck yourself, dude.
00:50:34And I can tell you to go fuck yourself neurologically as well.
00:50:37The way that men bond is using something called vasopressin.
00:50:42You heard about this?
00:50:43- Yeah.
00:50:44- Okay, so here is a thing that I'm trying to achieve.
00:50:46This is why good boy points in the bedroom,
00:50:50when cleaning the kitchen, when picking the kids up,
00:50:54when dressing nicely, when telling him
00:50:56that he needs to shave on a weekend
00:50:57so he doesn't scratch your face.
00:50:59Good boy points will drive a man to do obscene things,
00:51:02especially from a beautiful, charming,
00:51:05beguiling woman that he's attached to.
00:51:08- Listen, I've trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 20 years.
00:51:10You think I like having sweaty balls in my face?
00:51:12No, but I get tapped 15 times, but I tap a guy once
00:51:16and it's enough for me to go, all right,
00:51:18I'm getting somewhere with this.
00:51:19- Not only that, but think about how much more it is
00:51:21when coach comes past who's got three stripes
00:51:23on his belt and goes-
00:51:23- Right, right, yeah.
00:51:25- Good.
00:51:25- Right, oh my God.
00:51:26- Oh!
00:51:27- Listen, I built a law firm and represented
00:51:30some of the wealthiest people in the world.
00:51:31When I got my brown belt, it was the most exciting,
00:51:35it was the proudest accomplishment of my life.
00:51:37The amount of hours and injuries that it took to get there,
00:51:4115 years worth of training to get there.
00:51:43So to me, there was something about that,
00:51:46that fight, that prize, that hunt.
00:51:48So that old school idea, and by the way,
00:51:51women loved, loved when there was this courtship piece
00:51:55and there was all of that.
00:51:56And again, men loved being held a little bit to a standard
00:52:00and having a sense of, and by the way,
00:52:01it solves this body count issue
00:52:03that everyone's so caught up in,
00:52:04because it turns into something that no, no,
00:52:06there has to be some gatekeeping
00:52:08and there has to be some sense of earning something.
00:52:11So I think there's tremendous value in that.
00:52:13And I think that if we were early in relationships
00:52:17to start really like progressively showing the other more,
00:52:21both physically and emotionally, right?
00:52:25And having maybe even that path coming up at the same time,
00:52:28like as I'm seeing more of you,
00:52:30like if I've seen you with your panties off
00:52:34and I don't know how many siblings you have,
00:52:37we're doing things out of order, as far as I'm concerned.
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00:53:50That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.
00:53:54There's a fascinating series.
00:53:56So Roy Baumeister is now on Substack
00:54:00and is just so fascinated.
00:54:01He's writing a series on sexual novelty at the moment,
00:54:05and he's basically advocating that specifically for men,
00:54:07women need a different treatment.
00:54:08Maybe he'll give that at some point in future.
00:54:10Specifically for men, you need to titrate
00:54:12the dose of sexual novelty over as long of a duration
00:54:15as possible, and this is good for the men too.
00:54:18It's the same as not letting the kids
00:54:19have ice cream every night.
00:54:20This is from his last book,
00:54:21which came out about five years ago.
00:54:23Men will do what women demand of them in order to get laid.
00:54:25Women set the standards for sex and men meet them.
00:54:28Although this may be considered
00:54:29an unflattering characterization,
00:54:31we have found no evidence to contradict
00:54:33the basic general principle that men will do
00:54:34whatever is required in order to obtain sex,
00:54:37and perhaps not a great deal more.
00:54:39One of us characterized this in previous work as,
00:54:41if women would stop sleeping with jerks,
00:54:44men would stop being jerks.
00:54:46If, in order to obtain sex, men must become pillars
00:54:49of the community or lie or amass riches
00:54:51by fair means or foul or be romantic or funny,
00:54:54then men will do precisely that.
00:54:56Similarly, if men need to be broken, flaky,
00:54:59non-committal and inconsistent,
00:55:00then they will meet these standards appropriately.
00:55:02Women's make choices, modern romance culture
00:55:04and girl magazines are not at fault
00:55:06for emotionally unavailable behavior in men,
00:55:08but they are not totally unrelated to it either.
00:55:11- You know, I could not possibly agree with anything more.
00:55:16That approach would probably be very bad
00:55:18for my business model.
00:55:19And the truth is, I'm not a psychologist,
00:55:22I'm not a therapist, I'm not a researcher.
00:55:24I have facilitated the demise
00:55:26of thousands of unhappy marriages.
00:55:29People lie to their therapists,
00:55:30people lie on surveys, people lie in studies.
00:55:33They don't lie to their divorce lawyer.
00:55:35They don't, because there's no reason to.
00:55:37You have attorney-client privilege attached
00:55:38and I have to really know everything to do a good job.
00:55:40- On that, surely people want to put themselves across
00:55:42in the best light.
00:55:43- Well, they lie to themselves and then they lie to me
00:55:47because they're lying to themselves.
00:55:48But because I see so much data on this person,
00:55:53I see their credit card receipts, their text messages,
00:55:55like I really go in there on people.
00:55:59Like you have to, if someone's going through custody
00:56:00litigation or an ugly contested divorce,
00:56:03you get to see everything, really.
00:56:05And so having now listened to thousands of people,
00:56:10men and women, the abuser and the abused,
00:56:12the substance use disorder and the person married
00:56:14to the person with substance use disorder,
00:56:16I've argued every side of every issue in a divorce.
00:56:20I've spent time with perpetrators of domestic violence
00:56:23and victims of domestic violence.
00:56:24I've spent time with every possible permutation.
00:56:27And I will tell you,
00:56:29if only there were good and bad people in the world,
00:56:31like, you know, if only we could just find the evil people
00:56:34and segregate it through the heart of every man.
00:56:36- Right, through the Solzhenitsyn,
00:56:37through the heart of every man is the line of good and evil.
00:56:39And so I genuinely believe that if we were to say,
00:56:43look, there have to now be standards.
00:56:46There has to be a code.
00:56:47Like I was raised with the idea that men have to have a code,
00:56:51like that a man is supposed to have a code.
00:56:53And all of the men I aspired to be like,
00:56:56which were mostly from literature.
00:56:58They were always the samurai.
00:57:00They were always Lalon Karabin in "Last of the Mohicans."
00:57:04You know, it was all this idea of like the man
00:57:07who was the protector, the provider, he had a code.
00:57:09He had the things he would do and the things he would not do.
00:57:11And nothing was going to pull him from that.
00:57:14And so I genuinely believe
00:57:17that there is a hunger right now in men for that,
00:57:21the sense of what am I supposed to do?
00:57:23Tell me the mission.
00:57:24Like, tell me what is expected of me
00:57:26and what is not.
00:57:27And that women were the gatekeepers when it came to sex.
00:57:30They were gatekeeper.
00:57:31You had to earn this.
00:57:33You had to earn it, not by, you know,
00:57:35give me the money and then I'll give it to you.
00:57:37It was really more about the characteristics
00:57:40that made you someone that had resources.
00:57:42That is that you were disciplined, focused,
00:57:44that you were someone who was serious about things.
00:57:47Listen, I'm a 53-year-old man.
00:57:50And if you read the comments on my videos,
00:57:53like it's shocking to me how many women are like gaga
00:57:57over me and trust me, it's not looks.
00:58:00It's the fact that I look like a serious person.
00:58:03Like I wear a suit.
00:58:05Like, you know how many 53-year-old men
00:58:07are running around in hoodies?
00:58:09Like, but you know, listen, it's fine.
00:58:11But the truth is there is something
00:58:12about old school masculinity
00:58:15that is very appealing to women
00:58:17because this suit is a statement.
00:58:21- I'm put together.
00:58:22I take this seriously.
00:58:24That's what this says.
00:58:25I take this seriously.
00:58:26It's why you would wear this to a job interview
00:58:28or a funeral and you wouldn't wear it to the beach, right?
00:58:31You wear it 'cause you're saying I'm here.
00:58:32I'm wearing this 'cause I want you to know
00:58:34I take what I'm doing seriously.
00:58:35And if you put this on when you're getting together
00:58:37with a woman, you're saying I take this seriously.
00:58:40I take the world seriously.
00:58:42I take my place in it seriously.
00:58:44So I think the combination of, again,
00:58:47because I don't think it's a mystery or controversial
00:58:50to say that every man wants a good girl
00:58:52who's only bad for him.
00:58:54And every woman wants a bad boy who's only good for her.
00:58:57So the combination of a suit and sleeves of tattoos,
00:59:01it's not shocking that women would find that attractive.
00:59:04It's Clark Kent, Superman rolled into the one thing.
00:59:07So I don't know why we're not saying to young men,
00:59:11again, like this is what we should be focusing on
00:59:14is the mission, becoming the best version of yourself,
00:59:17cleaning yourself up, putting yourself together
00:59:19and saying to women, "Women, listen,
00:59:21"you've always been the gatekeepers of sex.
00:59:23"You always have been.
00:59:25"So you have to start taking that role seriously
00:59:28"and you have to start holding men
00:59:29"to some kind of a standard."
00:59:31And I'm sure that I'll get pilloried by people
00:59:34in the red pill space in the manosphere are going to say,
00:59:36"Oh, well, men have to accommodate themselves to women."
00:59:39Okay, yes, yes, that's how it works
00:59:41when it comes to sexual gatekeeping.
00:59:43That's how it works.
00:59:44Unless you wanna be the kind of person
00:59:46that sneaks in the back door and steals things
00:59:48and puts on a false face of what it is that you really want
00:59:51and you wanna be disingenuous, you're right.
00:59:53You can make a lot of money stealing.
00:59:55You can make a lot of money in a grift.
00:59:57Should you be proud of that?
00:59:59I don't think so.
01:00:00- Yeah.
01:00:01I've had two conversations this week talking about the show
01:00:05and how it relates to men.
01:00:06I tended to not do press, but both of these,
01:00:09the conversations were really interesting.
01:00:10There is a--
01:00:11- You got Steve in so much trouble.
01:00:13(laughs)
01:00:15- Oh, fucking hell, dude.
01:00:17I have to tell you, as someone who is friends
01:00:20with both of you and who has spent time with both of you,
01:00:23talk about two people that should not be the targets
01:00:29and being called misogynists.
01:00:30What fucking planet are we on when the two of you are,
01:00:35Steve just got engaged, by the way.
01:00:37- I'm beyond the pale.
01:00:38We've got a--
01:00:39- It's insane.
01:00:40- We've got a Mexican Hitler saluting Nazi
01:00:44as the current leader of the men's movement,
01:00:46but me and Steve are beyond the third rail.
01:00:48- Yeah, you guys are the bad guys
01:00:49'cause you dared have difficult conversations.
01:00:52- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm popular.
01:00:53So it just goes to show
01:00:53how much of a third rail this stuff is.
01:00:55It's weird because a lot of these topics, to me,
01:00:57are almost not what we're talking about today,
01:00:59but a lot of the other stuff, birthright decline and things.
01:01:01It's like me being a comedian doing a trans joke.
01:01:03It feels so hacky.
01:01:05And I've been talking about this for six years.
01:01:07Is it not accepted that these are some
01:01:09of the contributing factors and it's a big problem
01:01:12and nobody is laying it at the feet and blaming anyone,
01:01:15but here are some of the,
01:01:17you say that in a certain group
01:01:19and people almost roll their eyes at how trite it is.
01:01:21It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, get onto the net.
01:01:22Like what's the most interesting thing that's coming out?
01:01:25Whereas if you say, you realize how big the internet is,
01:01:28oh, I'm so far outside of the territory.
01:01:30I've fucking leapfrogged the Overton window.
01:01:32I'm in a whole new universe here, motherfuckers.
01:01:35It is crazy.
01:01:36- But it's the same reason why you'll never sell a diet book
01:01:38that just says eat less processed food,
01:01:42have more lean protein and move your body
01:01:44because it's not that long of a book.
01:01:46It's like a pamphlet.
01:01:47- Scott Galloway rang me a couple of weeks ago.
01:01:50He rings me on the Saturday morning.
01:01:52- Scott's like got such a crush on you.
01:01:54He loves you.
01:01:55- Yeah, yeah.
01:01:56- He's always talking about how awesome you are.
01:01:57- I heard you say on Cody Sanchez
01:01:58that I've got sexy man stubble.
01:01:59So everyone's got a crush.
01:02:00- It's oops, I didn't know I was sexy.
01:02:01Yeah, you've grown it in a little bit more now.
01:02:04Scott's rocking the oops, I didn't know I was sexy, stubble.
01:02:06- He's also just had some-
01:02:07- Scott and I both are like, you know,
01:02:08the like dudes in their fifties who wear Panerai watches
01:02:11and are trying to-
01:02:12- I did cosmetic surgery recently.
01:02:13- So he rings me and he goes,
01:02:16the voice is the exact same
01:02:19as that of someone who's grieving.
01:02:21Someone's just died and he's like,
01:02:22"Hey, buddy, how's it going?"
01:02:26And I was like, "Well, it was fine until you arrived.
01:02:29Should there be?"
01:02:29And he's like, "Oh, well, blah, blah, blah, something."
01:02:31Anyway, conversations that I had this week
01:02:36and this fledgling term,
01:02:38this nascent little neotenous blob that's coming up,
01:02:41the gentle manosphere, the gentle manosphere
01:02:44is Richard Reeves, it's Arthur Brooks, it's yourself,
01:02:47it's me, it's Scott Galloway, it's Alex Hormozi,
01:02:49it's Chris Bumstead, Rob Henderson, Mac and Murphy.
01:02:52It's that-
01:02:53- But you know, I want it to be that we're gentlemen
01:02:55and not gentle men.
01:02:57- Yes, correct.
01:02:57- Because I tend to be of the like, you know,
01:02:59civilize the mind and make savage the body.
01:03:01- Gentle manosphere.
01:03:02- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:03:03And you know, Scott, like I loved "Notes on Being a Man."
01:03:07Like, I think it's a great book,
01:03:09but I said that if you removed the throat clearing
01:03:12and land acknowledgements from every chapter,
01:03:14it would have been like half the length.
01:03:16- You've heard me talk about this, right?
01:03:17You've heard me talk about the land acknowledgement.
01:03:18- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:03:20I mean, when he talked about being in a fraternity,
01:03:22it was, I was in a fraternity, it was great.
01:03:25I lived with a bunch of men, we held each other accountable.
01:03:27But it was, fraternities have traditionally been
01:03:30a very misogynist thing and they've had racist undertones
01:03:32and they did this and this, and then he says the point.
01:03:35- Richard Reeves sat in that seat and I said,
01:03:38the first, one of the first things I said to him,
01:03:40I'm sick of having to do this social land acknowledgement
01:03:44throat clearing every single time
01:03:45that I want to try and make a point.
01:03:47And then the one fucking time that I don't do it,
01:03:50hundreds of times I've spoken about this topic online.
01:03:52Hundreds of times, I just chose the wrong time to not go,
01:03:55well, we must remember that women
01:03:56are going through challenges and historically,
01:03:58they've been the ones that systemically have been struggling
01:04:00and we're not saying that we need to get them
01:04:01out of the boardroom and back into the bedroom
01:04:02and it's very important to remember the other side.
01:04:04- How many times, right, do we have to say the same thing?
01:04:06- I wanna have a single fucking disclaimer on my website
01:04:09or to say it once on the show and be like,
01:04:11look, presuming that I understand all of these things,
01:04:15I'll do a full episode.
01:04:16I'll do a full episode on it,
01:04:17which is just all of the different disclaimers
01:04:19and then once I've done that,
01:04:20that means that each, but because of clipping culture,
01:04:23you need to chronologically do it with,
01:04:26even sometimes you throw little ad breaks
01:04:28in the middle of it.
01:04:29Well, don't forget what I said before about that
01:04:31and now we're back to the show.
01:04:32- Did you ever watch the show Silicon Valley?
01:04:34- No.
01:04:35- It was a brilliant show,
01:04:36there was a scene where there's a character named Ryan
01:04:38and there are two guys who really love Ryan,
01:04:41but they have to talk about something
01:04:42that he's getting wrong.
01:04:43He's like, look, Ryan is great, but...
01:04:45And the other guy goes, no, no, listen, Ryan is great,
01:04:47but then he goes, okay.
01:04:48But you know, and look, Ryan is great,
01:04:49but he goes, look, he goes, can we just say Rigby?
01:04:53He goes, Ryan is great, but great.
01:04:55Okay, he goes, Rigby, we gotta work on it today.
01:04:58He goes, Rigby.
01:05:00So we just have to agree on a common land acknowledgement.
01:05:03- The acronym, we need a safe word.
01:05:05- Women, you know, women,
01:05:06I'm not suggesting women should be back in the...
01:05:08- Women are wonderful, war.
01:05:09- War, but that's it, that's all you have to do.
01:05:13- I've got a safe word,
01:05:14I've got an anti-misogynist safe word to do it,
01:05:16but no, look, dude.
01:05:17- So I've been, I can say this
01:05:19because it's not secret knowledge.
01:05:21When I was on Danielle's show,
01:05:22I was talking to her about a concept
01:05:25and one of the concepts I was talking about
01:05:26is that the characteristics of the powerful
01:05:29are often attributed to be better
01:05:32than the characteristics of the powerless.
01:05:34And she said, oh, that's an interesting point.
01:05:36I said, well, actually it's not me, that's Gloria Steinem
01:05:38from her essay, "If Men Could Menstruate,"
01:05:40which is a phenomenal essay.
01:05:41If you've never read it, it's worth reading.
01:05:42It's a really, really good essay,
01:05:44even particularly for men to read,
01:05:45because it really talks about how when you, you know,
01:05:48when you attribute something and it talks about how, like,
01:05:51if men could menstruate, it would be, well,
01:05:54men can be the only ones in the military
01:05:55'cause we're used to the sight of blood.
01:05:57And then men could only be,
01:05:58and it's all about how the characteristics of the power,
01:06:00and again, it was written in the 1960s
01:06:02when there were a lot of systemic, you know,
01:06:04things against women.
01:06:05And so I didn't realize Danielle is close friends
01:06:08with Gloria Steinem, and I ended up getting an invitation
01:06:11to Gloria Steinem's home.
01:06:13This is a woman, she's in her 90s.
01:06:15This was my mother's idol growing up.
01:06:17And I get to spend an afternoon talking
01:06:21about modern masculinity with Gloria Steinem.
01:06:25I am beyond excited about this.
01:06:27It's this week coming up.
01:06:29And I really do think that we have to start
01:06:32having more conversation.
01:06:34And again, my work is based on my observations
01:06:38of people who signed up for a job.
01:06:40And the job was, I'm gonna love you, you're gonna love me,
01:06:44and we're gonna try to make each other's lives better, right?
01:06:48Like, I mean, the greatest goal of marriage,
01:06:51if there was a goal to marriage, should be, I think,
01:06:54that at the end of your spouse's life,
01:06:58that they would look at you and say,
01:07:01"You helped me become the most authentic version of myself,
01:07:05and you're still my favorite person."
01:07:08Like, if there's a wedding toast that has value,
01:07:11that would be it.
01:07:11I hope that someday when one of you passes,
01:07:14you will look at the other one and say,
01:07:16"You helped me become the most authentic version of who I am,
01:07:19and you're still my favorite person."
01:07:22How is this a conversation
01:07:24that is in any way controversial to want to have?
01:07:27How do we get better at this job?
01:07:30Like, they spent a lot of time in my life
01:07:32trying to teach me how to divide fractions.
01:07:36It's been fucking useless.
01:07:37I've never needed it once.
01:07:40But nobody really had these conversations
01:07:43when I was a young man about, you know, how does it work?
01:07:47How do relationships work?
01:07:48How do you not paint yourself into corners
01:07:50you can't get out of?
01:07:51How do you have conversations?
01:07:53Like, you can't win a fight with your spouse
01:07:56or your girlfriend.
01:07:57Everybody loses.
01:07:58If you won, you lost.
01:08:00You made the person feel small.
01:08:02And vice versa, by the way, women and men.
01:08:04And if you lost, you lost.
01:08:05So how do we interact with it?
01:08:08'Cause this is important to all of us.
01:08:10So this is the difference, I think.
01:08:13I was asked yesterday,
01:08:14what are the defining characteristics
01:08:16of the gentlemanosphere?
01:08:18And I said, the first one is emotions.
01:08:22It's an understanding that they're important.
01:08:24It's not seeing suppression as strength,
01:08:25and it's integrating them into the relationship.
01:08:28The second one is striving,
01:08:29because there's no way that you can look around
01:08:31some of the canonical examples.
01:08:32Someone like Chris Bumstead,
01:08:34most dominant bodybuilder of his era,
01:08:35six-time world champion,
01:08:36cried on camera six weeks before he went on
01:08:38in his girlfriend's arms because he's worried about.
01:08:42The third one was a prioritization of relational patterns.
01:08:47So as opposed to, and this is what you're touching on here,
01:08:50number one and number three, right?
01:08:52It's the integration of emotions.
01:08:53It's this open transparentness.
01:08:55It's not seeing suppression as strength,
01:08:56and it's pushing on the relational part.
01:08:58But there would be a much more kind of dictatorial,
01:09:01top-down, classically patriarchal approach to this,
01:09:06which is, well, head of household, I say you do.
01:09:10There is no negotiation.
01:09:11This isn't a back and forth.
01:09:12And in some ways, the leader-follower dynamic
01:09:14is good and important and preferred by many women
01:09:18in that sort of a world, not necessarily all.
01:09:22But that is a degree of integration,
01:09:27what you're talking about here, learning how to relate well.
01:09:32How do we relate well, and how do I help my partner become?
01:09:35And I've got this line again
01:09:37from another fucking wonderful sub-stack.
01:09:40The type of person I'm assuming we're looking for here is,
01:09:43number one, someone you will find fascinating to talk to
01:09:46after you've talked for 20,000 hours.
01:09:49Number two, someone you feel comfortable
01:09:51talking through the hardest and most painful decisions
01:09:53you will face in your life.
01:09:55Number three, the conversation is wildly generative
01:09:58for both of you in that it brings you out.
01:10:00It helps you become, I love that line, it helps you become.
01:10:03That's what you were saying, more of me, more me.
01:10:06I want to be more me?
01:10:07Well, that's it.
01:10:08I don't want you to become what I want you to be.
01:10:11I want you to become the most authentic version of yourself.
01:10:14I mean, to me, as I age,
01:10:20I find that what was said by John Lennon a million years ago,
01:10:25which is that there's nowhere you can be
01:10:28that isn't where you were meant to be,
01:10:29and that becoming yourself is the hardest thing.
01:10:34Like, to become yourself,
01:10:35to really identify what that means
01:10:38and to find a way to become an authentic version
01:10:40of yourself fearlessly,
01:10:42and to embrace all of the parts of yourself.
01:10:44The messiness.
01:10:45Like, embrace the parts of yourself.
01:10:47Like, I have some extraordinarily traditionally
01:10:50masculine traits, you know?
01:10:52I am constantly challenging myself.
01:10:54I love to push myself.
01:10:55I love to push my physical tolerances.
01:10:57I competitively ran marathons.
01:10:58I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
01:11:00I've tattooed my entire body.
01:11:01Like, I'm embracing pain and challenges,
01:11:04and I feel cleansed and excited
01:11:07when I'm in the presence of that
01:11:08and when I've endured something.
01:11:10These are largely masculine traits.
01:11:12Again, throat clearing.
01:11:13Yes, of course, there are many women who also enjoy that.
01:11:15But again, we have to get to a place
01:11:18where we can just say, like, it's okay
01:11:20that there are some things
01:11:21that are traditionally this and traditionally that.
01:11:24And what of that, by the way,
01:11:26precludes our ability to just embrace
01:11:28those other pieces of self and authentically present it?
01:11:32And I have to say,
01:11:33anything that has too much consistency to it worries me.
01:11:36Anytime someone is just so consistent
01:11:39that you just look at it and go,
01:11:41oh, okay, so they're, like,
01:11:43I can tell you what car they drive.
01:11:45I can tell you what hobbies they engage in,
01:11:48who they voted for,
01:11:49just by looking at even what they're wearing.
01:11:51'Cause again, my job is largely pattern recognition,
01:11:53like many people's.
01:11:54Like, my job is to, in a courtroom,
01:11:57identify all of the important,
01:11:59everyone in that courtroom's important.
01:12:01But I have to figure out a way to manipulate
01:12:03the emotional state of every single person in that room.
01:12:05Like, that's my job,
01:12:06is to manipulate people's emotional state.
01:12:08That's what you do as a trial lawyer.
01:12:09I want the judge to feel good about my client
01:12:11and dislike the other side.
01:12:12I want the other side to feel scared and vulnerable.
01:12:14I want my client to feel safe.
01:12:16I want the court reporter and the court officer
01:12:18to like me and dislike my adversary
01:12:20so that when we have a break in testimony
01:12:22and they go back in the back room with the judge,
01:12:24they go, I like Jim.
01:12:25He's a really good lawyer.
01:12:26Oh, wow, you know, yeah,
01:12:27that witness didn't seem trustworthy.
01:12:28So I want to fuck with everybody in that room,
01:12:31again, with a noble goal.
01:12:33I want to accomplish the objective for my client.
01:12:36And by the way, like, there--
01:12:38- The other side's doing it too.
01:12:39- A hundred, so well, that's why I always tell people,
01:12:41I'm like, look, my job is full-contact storytelling.
01:12:44And by that, I mean, there's lots of good storytellers,
01:12:46but you try to tell a story
01:12:48while someone's trying to stop you from telling the story
01:12:50and tell a different story at the same time.
01:12:52And then tell, it's like being a standup comic
01:12:54while someone over there is trying to be funnier than you
01:12:56and stop you and heckle you.
01:12:58Like, and you're trying to do your set while that's going on.
01:13:00That's my job, you know?
01:13:02And it's with an audience of one
01:13:04that's only vaguely paying attention.
01:13:07And it was not the most ambitious or brilliant lawyer
01:13:10in the history of lawyering
01:13:11or else they wouldn't have taken that kick.
01:13:12- You gotta be careful which judges are listening.
01:13:14They might not be happy.
01:13:15- You know, listen, I'd love to think
01:13:17that judges are out there listening to this, but.
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01:14:18Total departure.
01:14:20What does good storytelling consist of?
01:14:23- I think it starts with being able
01:14:28to have a really dynamic imagination
01:14:31and putting yourself in the head of the person
01:14:34whose story you're telling.
01:14:37If you're telling your own story,
01:14:39I think it's about telling a story
01:14:43that has the full range of human experience
01:14:46and emotion to it.
01:14:47So when I'm structuring testimony for a client,
01:14:50particularly for a custody case,
01:14:52when you kind of have to tell your life story
01:14:54and who you are as a person and a parent,
01:14:56I try to make sure that both the strengths and weaknesses
01:14:59of that person comes out.
01:15:01I do something that I jokingly call the eight mile approach,
01:15:05which is the end of the movie "Eight Mile"
01:15:07when Eminem wins the final-
01:15:09- Tell me something you don't already know about.
01:15:09- Tell me something you don't know about me, right.
01:15:11So it's really the equivalent of,
01:15:13I look at opposing counsel and I'm like,
01:15:15tell this judge something that they don't already now know
01:15:18about my client.
01:15:19Because if my client sends a text message saying,
01:15:21go fuck yourself, I hate you.
01:15:23It's coming out and he can't wait to bring it out.
01:15:26And he's gonna bring it out in the worst spot.
01:15:27So I'm gonna bring it out.
01:15:28I'm gonna put my client on and say,
01:15:30read what's been marked for identification
01:15:32as plaintiff's exhibit 26.
01:15:33Do I have to?
01:15:34I'd like it if you did.
01:15:36Go F yourself.
01:15:38Does it say go F yourself?
01:15:39No, what does it say?
01:15:40Can I curse?
01:15:41Please.
01:15:42It says go fuck yourself.
01:15:43Who did you send that to?
01:15:44I sent it to my wife.
01:15:45Why would you send that to her?
01:15:46I was just frustrated and angry.
01:15:49Do you think that helped your co-parenting relationship?
01:15:52No, probably not.
01:15:53Do you think that that improved the communication
01:15:55between the two of you?
01:15:57No, it definitely didn't.
01:15:58If you had an opportunity to do it again,
01:16:00would you do it differently?
01:16:02You know, I'd like to say I would,
01:16:04but the truth is she had sent me 50 text messages
01:16:07where she cursed at me and said all these things,
01:16:09and I lost it.
01:16:10I lost my temper and I said it.
01:16:12I shouldn't have said it the way I did, but I did.
01:16:14I'm human.
01:16:15I wish I could say to you I would never do it again,
01:16:16but you know what?
01:16:17I pushed so much that I lashed out.
01:16:19I'm watching opposing counsel cross out pages
01:16:23of his cross-examination now,
01:16:25because now my client is a sympathetic character
01:16:28because he's human.
01:16:29And so I think that anytime you tell a story,
01:16:32and in that story, you're the hero,
01:16:36but also weak, but also making mistakes,
01:16:39and there's things you get wrong.
01:16:40Like you really want to bring the whole hero's journey
01:16:43into the story.
01:16:44I think that, you know, there has to be the challenge.
01:16:46There has to be the failure.
01:16:47There has to be the prospect of you might not make it.
01:16:49And then that's where the redemption arc comes through.
01:16:51So I think the best storytelling is engaged in that way.
01:16:56I also think that how we connect with people
01:17:00and talk to people is huge.
01:17:02I mean, I think when, you know, when COVID happened
01:17:06and everything went remote,
01:17:07and we were doing remote trials via video conference,
01:17:11it was just an absolute nightmare
01:17:12because cross-examining someone via a virtual format
01:17:17is very, very difficult.
01:17:19There's something very like almost predatory about,
01:17:23'cause you have to earn the right to beat up a witness.
01:17:25Like if you just go in and are immediately hard
01:17:28for minute one, and like, isn't it a fact
01:17:30that like that's not effective cross-examining.
01:17:32Effective cross-examination is I get you to commit
01:17:35to a set of principles that you think help your case.
01:17:38And then I use those principles to snap your neck.
01:17:41- You can see why you like Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
01:17:46How do people know when it's time to quit?
01:17:49How do people know when it's time to leave a relationship?
01:17:51- I mean, it's hard to say.
01:17:54It's like, how do you know when to leave a job?
01:17:58You know, look, the humorous answer is, you know,
01:18:01winners never quit and quitters never win,
01:18:03but if you never win and you never quit,
01:18:05you're a fucking idiot.
01:18:06So I think when you have done what you could do
01:18:11and you are still in a place where I think the majority
01:18:19of the time you feel empty and unsatisfied and alone.
01:18:24I think there was a type of loneliness
01:18:27when you're with someone and you feel very lonely,
01:18:30that that is a very unique kind of hell.
01:18:33I had a friend who used to jokingly say
01:18:37that the way he knew he was in a relationship
01:18:39is when he was having sex and he found himself thinking,
01:18:42you know, one of these days I've got to get laid.
01:18:44So I think that sometimes when you are with someone
01:18:48and feeling alone, when you are having a sexual relationship
01:18:51with your partner and you feel yourself wanting to sleep
01:18:54with other people in a consistent way.
01:18:58But I also think that, and a lot of what I talk about
01:19:02in my book is the idea that sometimes that is a spiral
01:19:07that we didn't mean to create and that sometimes
01:19:10we've been created with excellent intentions
01:19:13and that there is a way to reverse that spiral.
01:19:15So like my penchant for manipulating people's emotional state
01:19:21in a courtroom, I think that power can be used for good.
01:19:25And one of the examples that I give is what I refer
01:19:28to as sexual monotony, which is that I think a lot of people
01:19:32with excellent intentions screw up their own sex lives
01:19:35in a monogamous relationship.
01:19:37Because we meet, we start dating, maybe we're not virgins,
01:19:42we've had other relationships in varying degrees.
01:19:46Okay, so what do we do?
01:19:48We throw all the different techniques we've learned
01:19:50along the way from other partners, from porn,
01:19:53from the internet, whatever.
01:19:55We just throw that at each other.
01:19:56And what do we figure out pretty quickly?
01:19:58Oh, she likes this.
01:20:00This she really likes.
01:20:01This not so good, it landed flat.
01:20:03Okay, and she figures out, oh, he likes this.
01:20:06This he loves.
01:20:07This didn't do anything for him.
01:20:08This he doesn't like at all.
01:20:09Okay, now what do you do then?
01:20:11Play the hits, man, right?
01:20:13You play the hit.
01:20:13Like I didn't go see Bruce Springsteen to hear the acoustic
01:20:15goes to Tom Joad.
01:20:16I want Born to Run, I want Thunder Road.
01:20:18Like play the hits, right?
01:20:19We're on a tight schedule.
01:20:20Like let's play the hits.
01:20:22And with great intentions, you play the hits.
01:20:24She loves this, you love this.
01:20:26We do it, we do it in a certain order.
01:20:28What have we just done?
01:20:29We created a routine.
01:20:30And what starts to happen now?
01:20:32If we're not checking in and having this open communication,
01:20:36now if one of us does something different,
01:20:39it's like, oh, that was weird.
01:20:40What did we deviate from the routine?
01:20:41Is something going on?
01:20:42What's happening there?
01:20:43And it's unspoken very often.
01:20:45So now we're in this routine, we're in this rut.
01:20:47We don't know how to get out of it.
01:20:48And then when we start to have conversation,
01:20:50well, why don't we do this anymore?
01:20:51And how come we haven't done that anymore?
01:20:52Now everyone's defensive about it.
01:20:54So what I always talk about is like behavior modification
01:20:58or like behavior manipulation with good intentions.
01:21:02And one of the examples that I give is if look,
01:21:04if you're tired, like in the bedroom,
01:21:07we're just doing the same things
01:21:08in the same order all the time.
01:21:10I don't think having a confrontational discussion
01:21:13with your partner is helpful in that.
01:21:15I have suggested to people, I think the best way to do it
01:21:18and I find me a woman who wouldn't want
01:21:21to have this conversation.
01:21:22If you went to a girlfriend and said,
01:21:24the dream I had about you last,
01:21:27I can't even look you in the eye.
01:21:28The dream I had about you last night.
01:21:29I don't even know where it came.
01:21:31Wait, what?
01:21:32What was it?
01:21:33Like, she's going to want to know what was it?
01:21:34I can't even, I don't know what I,
01:21:37it was like the dirtiest trick.
01:21:38What were we doing?
01:21:39And then you describe what it is
01:21:41you've been thinking about doing.
01:21:42And either she goes,
01:21:44oh, is that something you'd want to do?
01:21:47And then you go, I don't know, maybe?
01:21:49Like, I guess something in my subconscious,
01:21:51like it was hot in the dream.
01:21:52Maybe, you know, give it a shot kind of a thing.
01:21:55Or if she goes, oh, I would never want to do that.
01:21:57You go, yeah, I know.
01:21:58I don't know if I eat dairy before I go to bed or something.
01:22:00I don't know where that came from with subconscious,
01:22:02but at least now you've got that dialogue happening.
01:22:07And again, this isn't with a tremendous desire
01:22:10to deepen this connection.
01:22:12I think we screw up our relationships,
01:22:15not because we don't care,
01:22:17not because we don't want to be good at the job.
01:22:19I think it's just a matter of, you know,
01:22:21well, why should I do this when I could do the,
01:22:23well, you didn't do this for me.
01:22:24Why should I do this for you?
01:22:26You can reverse that flow just as easily
01:22:29by just starting to treat your partner with grace
01:22:33and giving them things that, leaving each other.
01:22:35What woman would not want to receive a text message
01:22:38in the middle of the day?
01:22:40You know, a song just came up on my Spotify.
01:22:42I had it on shuffle and it was making me think of you.
01:22:45Or, you know what I just thought of?
01:22:46A woman just walked by and she was wearing that perfume
01:22:49you were wearing when we first did it.
01:22:51Who would, that's the female,
01:22:52that's the equivalent of sending nudes to me.
01:22:55- And then, PS, you're way harder.
01:22:57- Yeah, yeah, perfect, perfect.
01:22:59And by the way, what a gift that is.
01:23:02And what man has ever received a nude
01:23:05or a suggestive photo from a girl?
01:23:07- Out of the blue, dude, an out of the blue nude.
01:23:09- Who you're dating, yeah.
01:23:11- Yeah, that's like triple nudes.
01:23:13That's worth three times the normal nude.
01:23:15That's a gold star.
01:23:16- That's three dozen roses you bought for her.
01:23:19That's what that is.
01:23:20And it's so, what does it cost?
01:23:22Nothing.
01:23:22- We did a series on the show, 20, 30 episodes
01:23:25when I first started and it was life hacks.
01:23:27It was how to make a great toasted sandwich.
01:23:29This is my favorite meditation app.
01:23:30But a lot of them were behavioral
01:23:31and many of them have stuck with me.
01:23:32Sleep with your phone outside of your bedroom,
01:23:34try and go for a walk first thing in the morning.
01:23:36The best one is basically this, but for friendships.
01:23:39And it's text your friends when you think about them.
01:23:41Because they pop into my head all the time.
01:23:44My old business partner that I used to run nightclubs with
01:23:46for 15 years.
01:23:47Sometimes I think about when we both got food poisoning
01:23:49at his son's first birthday party.
01:23:51And it'll just come and then it'll go.
01:23:54But if I don't have the rule or the impetus,
01:23:57just text Darren.
01:23:58Text Darren and say, dude, just thinking about
01:24:01when we shit ourselves, I was in Manchester,
01:24:03you were in Newcastle.
01:24:04We were both locked in nightclub toilets.
01:24:06Do you remember we were trying to run our events,
01:24:07respective events in different, it was on New Year's Eve
01:24:09and that thing happened and da, da, da.
01:24:11Well, you just send one.
01:24:12Hey man, thinking of you, hope you're really well.
01:24:14- You know what I'm actually loving
01:24:15and I never say this about tech.
01:24:18Apple Photos sends these memories reminders
01:24:21every once in a while to you.
01:24:22Like it just goes into your camera roll
01:24:23and it says like, here's a memory.
01:24:25And it just pops up.
01:24:26Now, sometimes it's upsetting 'cause all of a sudden
01:24:28you're like sitting there and you got a photo
01:24:29of your dead friend.
01:24:30But a lot of times it's just some random photo.
01:24:33And I have to tell you, like I get them.
01:24:35Half the time I text them to the person
01:24:38who's in the photo with me and I go,
01:24:40this just popped up on my thing.
01:24:41Look at these fucking kids.
01:24:43Who were we back then?
01:24:44And it starts the like, how you doing, man?
01:24:46I'm good, you?
01:24:47Yeah, how's the, and kids are good?
01:24:48Yeah, all right, man.
01:24:49Just want to tell you I love you.
01:24:50Love you too.
01:24:51What a like beautiful moment of connection.
01:24:53Costs nothing in the middle of the day.
01:24:55- It rules.
01:24:56It rules.
01:24:57- But nobody, but here's the thing, man.
01:24:58You're never gonna, and this is my like soapbox lately.
01:25:03You're never gonna hear a lot about this
01:25:07in mainstream media and the reason why
01:25:10is 'cause it's fucking free
01:25:11and you don't have to buy anything.
01:25:13- Okay, so here's a guess on that.
01:25:15There's no commercial incentive for it.
01:25:17Saying just text your friends.
01:25:18It'll improve your social network.
01:25:20Doesn't have you signing up to some new app
01:25:22or joining a running club or signing up for Equinox
01:25:24or whatever the fuck.
01:25:25I think another part of it is the same reason,
01:25:27one of the fundamental same reasons
01:25:29that the pick-up artist movement
01:25:30was so pushed back against by women
01:25:33beyond the fact that it was manipulating them
01:25:35to get them into bed,
01:25:36but that a reliable signal of your authenticity
01:25:41means that there are some things
01:25:42that are close to your sense of self
01:25:44and there are other things
01:25:45that aren't close to your sense of self.
01:25:46Your capacity for jujitsu,
01:25:48when you first started 15 years ago,
01:25:51I didn't see as some window
01:25:53into who you truly are as a person.
01:25:55Therefore, if you started learning
01:25:56to become better at jujitsu,
01:25:58I didn't feel that you were contriving yourself
01:26:01or coercing me into believing that you're a certain way.
01:26:04The same thing goes with learning to play the piano
01:26:06or speak French or something like that.
01:26:08The same thing is not so true
01:26:10with our abilities in the bedroom
01:26:12or with the primary language that we speak
01:26:16or perhaps our accent.
01:26:17We got rid of our accent.
01:26:17What are you trying to hide there?
01:26:19Immediately, you can feel like,
01:26:20"Oh, he watched some instruction about the bedroom?"
01:26:24And I think the reason is there is a degree of ick
01:26:28among the people that are not tapped in.
01:26:30The world's split into two groups,
01:26:31people who are tapped in and people that aren't tapped in.
01:26:33The world of people who aren't tapped in,
01:26:35look at, we could call it conscious relating.
01:26:38I can't think of a better word.
01:26:39It'll be a placeholder for now.
01:26:41Conscious relating.
01:26:42So I'm genuinely thinking deliberately
01:26:45about how I show up and how it affects you
01:26:47and how that recursive spiral is gonna continue to go.
01:26:50And my goal is to spin this spiral up as much as possible
01:26:54and stop it from coming down as much as possible.
01:26:56That's what I wanna do.
01:26:57And I'm gonna learn about attachment theory
01:26:59and I'm gonna realize that,
01:27:00"Oh, wow, I maybe do get a little bit anxious
01:27:03if somebody doesn't text for a while."
01:27:05And I'm gonna tell you that thing.
01:27:07I'm gonna use the emotions
01:27:08and you're gonna learn it about me.
01:27:10And if you get it wrong, I'm gonna be gentle with you,
01:27:12but firm, I'm gonna hold my boundaries.
01:27:13I'm gonna say, "Hey, babe,
01:27:14you remember when I said about that thing?
01:27:17When you do that, it makes me feel this
01:27:19and I'm sure that you didn't mean to,
01:27:20but I would love it if you."
01:27:22And you just continue to build on that
01:27:24and you're gonna cycle through partners, I think.
01:27:26And this has been my big thing
01:27:27for the last sort of two years or so,
01:27:28trying to get below the neck.
01:27:30I was emotionally decapitated and trying to work out
01:27:33how to stop praying at the altar
01:27:34of fucking cerebral horsepower.
01:27:36And you are going to cycle through partners
01:27:40and friends very quickly because it's a particularly,
01:27:44it's an acquired taste, right?
01:27:46This is not, unfortunately, Papa John's.
01:27:48This is something slightly more niche.
01:27:50But I think that the alchemy that's available,
01:27:54the friendships that I've got now,
01:27:56the way that I relate to my friends is so much deeper.
01:27:59Even the friends that I had before,
01:28:01who've grown with me and have been prepared
01:28:04to sort of come along for this ride
01:28:05or have been on parallel journeys on their own.
01:28:08- Yeah, and the depth of connection.
01:28:09- It fucking rules, dude, it fucking rules.
01:28:13- But see, this is something I think we have to,
01:28:15as a society-
01:28:16- Unspeakable misogynist.
01:28:17- But we have to, absolutely.
01:28:19We have to start normalizing that because I,
01:28:23you know, it astounded me like when my book,
01:28:27you know, "How to Stay in Love," right?
01:28:28Like there's a title for a book, "How to Stay in Love."
01:28:31Noble goal.
01:28:32You're in love, you want to stay in love, that's lovely.
01:28:35If you saw, you know, let's use Galloway as an example.
01:28:39He's a married guy.
01:28:40If you walk into Galloway's home
01:28:43and you see "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,"
01:28:45you see "Power of Habit" by Düring, you see,
01:28:49you would go, look at this guy, look at Galloway, man.
01:28:51He's crushing it out there, he's a monster.
01:28:53And you know, he's still trying to sharpen the sword.
01:28:55Love it, love it.
01:28:56You see on his thing, "How to Stay in Love,"
01:28:58he'd be like, "Oh shit, things are right at home with Scott?"
01:29:01Nate, not you, but most people are going to look at that
01:29:04and say, because we're supposed to just be
01:29:06naturally good at this.
01:29:07- Dude, I had this line about drinking.
01:29:09I went sober about 10 years ago
01:29:11and took a break from partying and then came back to it
01:29:13and took a break and came back to it.
01:29:15Alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it,
01:29:17people assume you have a problem.
01:29:18- 100%, see, I don't drink.
01:29:20And when I say, and it's not,
01:29:21I've never had a problem drinking.
01:29:23It's never been an issue.
01:29:24But anytime I tell someone, "Oh, I don't drink alcohol,"
01:29:27they assume I'm an alcoholic.
01:29:28And I think it's absolutely fucking hilarious.
01:29:31- Same thing's true for relationship advice.
01:29:32- 100%.
01:29:33- Relationship advice, one of the very few
01:29:35that if you take it, people assume
01:29:37that it's because of an issue.
01:29:37- That it's because of an issue.
01:29:38And what's funny to me is,
01:29:40so this is something that's fundamentally important to us.
01:29:44It has broad reaching implications.
01:29:46Like talk to a Warren Buffett, talk to one of those people,
01:29:48they'll tell you one of the single most important
01:29:49business decisions they ever made is who they married.
01:29:52And having a good romantic partner
01:29:54that doesn't cause you massive amounts of stress
01:29:56and doesn't make terrible financial decisions
01:29:58is an incredible asset.
01:30:00And having someone who helps you see your blind spots
01:30:03and helps you become the best version of yourself,
01:30:05like facilitate, like I think there is tremendous value
01:30:08in being good at relationships,
01:30:10even if relationships aren't the most important thing for you.
01:30:13If money's the most important thing for you,
01:30:14if your kids are the most important thing for you,
01:30:16if your physical state is the most important thing for you,
01:30:18having a good relationship.
01:30:20And by the way, if the relationship,
01:30:21if we learned nothing from the smashing machine,
01:30:24whether the film or the documentary, the original one,
01:30:27it was, this was an amazing person
01:30:29derailed by toxic relationships and addiction.
01:30:32So if you think about the fact
01:30:34that this is important to all of us,
01:30:37how is it that saying this is a teachable skill,
01:30:41this is something we could get better at,
01:30:43we could take a systematic approach to it?
01:30:46Like there is a value in doing that.
01:30:49My next book, which I'm working on currently,
01:30:52is really just about a systematic approach
01:30:56to being good at love.
01:30:58That's it, be good at love.
01:31:00Like we wanna be good at it, we don't wanna be bad at it.
01:31:03How can I be good at it?
01:31:05- To pick up artistry for relating, which I quite like.
01:31:09The question of how do you know
01:31:10whether it's time to end it or not?
01:31:12I'm gonna give you some samples from this list that I put out.
01:31:16Number one, if you woke up tomorrow
01:31:18and the relationship had ended with no conversation,
01:31:20fallout or drama, would you be disappointed or relieved?
01:31:23- Yeah, that's a big one, that's a big one.
01:31:26- Do you spend more time in the relationship
01:31:28or questioning the relationship?
01:31:30- Another good one.
01:31:31- What are the emotions you mostly feel
01:31:34in relation to your partner?
01:31:35What are the thoughts you have most frequently
01:31:37and is this how you would be prepared to feel
01:31:38for the rest of your life?
01:31:39So not hoping that there's going to be change in future.
01:31:43Would you want your future imagined child
01:31:46to date someone like your partner?
01:31:48- Ooh, that's a good one.
01:31:49See, and the reason that's a particularly good one
01:31:51I will tell you, because having represented people
01:31:54for several decades in custody cases,
01:31:56there's a lot we won't do for ourselves,
01:32:01but we'll do a lot for our children.
01:32:04And one of the most powerful tools I have,
01:32:06it works a lot in women, but it works in men too,
01:32:10is I've had women who have been the victims
01:32:12of domestic violence, intimate partner abuse,
01:32:14coercive control, and men.
01:32:16And I'll say to them, you know, look, you deserve to be
01:32:20in a different, that doesn't really blip on their radar.
01:32:23When I say to them, you do know that your children
01:32:25are watching this dynamic and they will choose
01:32:28their partners potentially.
01:32:31And of course, so your daughter is watching
01:32:33how your husband is treating you.
01:32:35And this is how she will believe,
01:32:36'cause whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish.
01:32:38And believe me, your daughter is going to believe
01:32:40that this is how men should treat her.
01:32:43You have never seen someone say, okay, yeah,
01:32:45I have to make this change.
01:32:46Or this is how your son is watching and thinking
01:32:50this is how men are supposed to treat women.
01:32:52There are things we will do for our children
01:32:54and the people we, and look, we know this.
01:32:55It doesn't even have to be a parent thing.
01:32:57Like, look, we're friends, you know.
01:32:59If there was someone talking to you out loud in my presence,
01:33:05the way that I talk to myself in the morning,
01:33:10I would step in between the two of you.
01:33:12And I would be like, who are you to talk
01:33:15to him that way?
01:33:16Like, you don't know what he's going through,
01:33:18what his life is, who are you to judge him?
01:33:20Are you fucking perfect?
01:33:22But we talk to ourselves terribly, constantly, right?
01:33:26So I genuinely believe that like the sense of
01:33:30that is a fantastic metric, which is if your best friend,
01:33:35if your daughter, if your son, if your brother, your sister,
01:33:39if they were in this relationship, what would you tell them?
01:33:42- There's two other elements there.
01:33:44The first one I learned from Adam Lane Smith,
01:33:46which I thought was so interesting.
01:33:48He explained why women, breakups often occur shortly
01:33:52after a child is born.
01:33:54And I'm presuming this includes divorces as well.
01:33:57- Yeah.
01:33:58- Pressure of having kids, less time having sex,
01:34:03et cetera, et cetera, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:34:05Like this, all of that stuff's in there.
01:34:07One of the elements, because he's attachment theorist,
01:34:09one of the elements that people don't see quite so much,
01:34:12but I think might contribute a lot is women have been able
01:34:17to put up with mistreatment of themselves,
01:34:20but they can't bear to see the potential mistreatment
01:34:25of their child.
01:34:26This guy who does not have his shit together.
01:34:29And like I was, you know, in and out and I loved him.
01:34:33I love him.
01:34:34I love him still, but he's not that competent.
01:34:37He doesn't really have it together.
01:34:38And you know, we thought that the engagement
01:34:40was going to fix it and I kind of didn't.
01:34:41And we thought that moving in together was going to fix it
01:34:42and I kind of didn't.
01:34:43Then we thought the wedding was going to fix it
01:34:44and that kind of didn't.
01:34:45And now we've had the kid and now it's not about me.
01:34:49Now it's about this little thing.
01:34:53And I, in the same way as in every movie ever,
01:34:57the hero is able to withstand as much torture
01:35:01as the bad guy can give him.
01:35:03But as soon as someone else gets brought in,
01:35:05his friend or his girlfriend or his kid,
01:35:09you fold at the first sight of it
01:35:10because watching somebody else suffer when you can interject
01:35:15is an infinity harder than enduring the suffering yourself.
01:35:20100%.
01:35:21And you feel you have the right to choose
01:35:24to have suffering inflicted upon you,
01:35:26but the choice to have another person suffer
01:35:29due to your choices is the thing that's just so painful.
01:35:32There's a kind of nobility I think that we all see
01:35:34because on the other side of hard things
01:35:36are often something valuable.
01:35:37And again, you know, winners don't quit.
01:35:39I can go through this.
01:35:41I have this, I'm the David Goggins of suffering.
01:35:43I'll just keep on going.
01:35:45- But one of the hardest things that I can say this
01:35:47as a parent of two adult men now,
01:35:50when they were growing up, one of the hardest things
01:35:55is to sit with the necessary pain of your children.
01:35:59Like there is necessary pain and to let them,
01:36:03like I remember the sort of the moment where I realized,
01:36:06oh, they're now at an age
01:36:08where I can't solve all their problems
01:36:09with a pack of M&Ms.
01:36:11- Or special, sprinkle dust on the floor.
01:36:13- Yeah, like they came home and said,
01:36:16like Chris doesn't want to be my friend anymore.
01:36:19He's hanging out with the guys on the lacrosse team
01:36:21and I'm not on the lacrosse team
01:36:22and now like I lost my best friend.
01:36:24And you just have to look at that and go like,
01:36:27there isn't a solution to that problem.
01:36:29Like the solution to that problem is like,
01:36:32yeah, you know, like that's gonna happen.
01:36:34You're gonna have people in your life who, you know,
01:36:36you have a real close connection with them
01:36:37and then your interests maybe diverge
01:36:39and you start spending time.
01:36:40And like having to sort of maybe help them process it
01:36:43is the best you can do, but like I can't fix it.
01:36:45I can't call Chris's mom and say,
01:36:47hey, can you have him play with my son
01:36:49because it's really upsetting and it's hard to do it,
01:36:52but it's also a really beautiful part of your journey
01:36:56as a parent and your journey as a human being.
01:36:59- The deeper that I've gone into this emotions work,
01:37:02the more that I've seen situations like that.
01:37:03The compulsion to fix is noble, but completely backward.
01:37:08And what you're saying by when your son or daughter
01:37:12comes to you or your best friend or whatever,
01:37:15of how to fix this thing that's happened.
01:37:17Your friend's just gone through a breakup
01:37:19or your son's just lost his best friend or whatever.
01:37:21You say, oh, what we can do?
01:37:23No, no, no, no, no, no, you do not need to,
01:37:25because what that says is you without them are not enough.
01:37:29And in order for you to be enough,
01:37:32you need to change yourself and your discomfort
01:37:35is making me upset.
01:37:37So you must make yourself okay so that I'm no longer not okay.
01:37:41- Yeah, and there's a power dynamic too.
01:37:42I mean, the old axiom that the urge to save the world
01:37:47is often a false face for the urge to rule.
01:37:50- Oh, allow me to be the savior.
01:37:52Allow me to step in and look at this,
01:37:53you're relying on me, on me.
01:37:55A much better way to do it is to say,
01:37:57and this fucking sentence wins every single time.
01:38:02I'm sorry that happened, how did that make you feel?
01:38:04- That must be hard.
01:38:05- That must be hard, how did that make you feel?
01:38:08Tell me about that, how did that make you feel?
01:38:09- Yeah, and doing what I do for a living,
01:38:12which is partly solving complex problems
01:38:16arising from an interpersonal conflict,
01:38:18but also just helping people sort of navigate,
01:38:22'cause any rational person going through an ugly divorce
01:38:27would say, I can't make any big decisions right now,
01:38:31I'm going through a really ugly divorce,
01:38:33but you have to make really big decisions about your divorce
01:38:36while you're going through a divorce, that's how it works.
01:38:39So I have to ask people at an incredibly difficult,
01:38:43emotionally intense moment in their life
01:38:44when they are everything that matters to them,
01:38:48their children, where they live, their work,
01:38:51their finite, everything feels on the line
01:38:54and is in fact on the line.
01:38:56I have to now say to that person, while that's going on,
01:38:59we have to make really gigantic long-term decisions.
01:39:03And the only way you can do it is by getting good at A,
01:39:05telling people things that they might not wanna hear,
01:39:08being able to give people difficult news
01:39:11in a very straight and honest and clear way,
01:39:14being able to sit with someone's pain
01:39:16and being able to sort of not minimize it,
01:39:19but also not amplify it.
01:39:21And I think that skillset has been a very,
01:39:26developed it over a long time of practicing,
01:39:30but it's also, you can extrapolate
01:39:33it to any number of other things,
01:39:34parenting, your own relationships, your friendships.
01:39:37And I think there's real value in knowing how to,
01:39:41and it really goes back to what we were talking about earlier
01:39:44about a really useful relationship skill
01:39:49is the ability to have conversations
01:39:51that make yourself uncomfortable, your partner uncomfortable,
01:39:55but are in service of the relationship.
01:39:57- That's alchemy.
01:39:59That's taking something that could be useless and ugly
01:40:02and turning it into a vehicle for transformation.
01:40:04How amazing.
01:40:05And then you come out on the other side
01:40:07and you're even closer together
01:40:09and you went through something
01:40:10that was difficult but related, so beautiful.
01:40:13Give me the worst and best ways
01:40:16that people get over breakups.
01:40:19- I mean, the worst way is to just immediately dive
01:40:22into another relationship without any pause.
01:40:25You're an advocate of a breathing period.
01:40:27- Yeah, or if you're going to,
01:40:29if you're gonna do the best way to get over someone
01:40:31is to get under someone.
01:40:32If you're gonna do that, see it for what it is and say it.
01:40:37Really be candid that that's what you're doing.
01:40:39Don't lead people on, don't mislead,
01:40:41and certainly don't lie to yourself.
01:40:43The most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves.
01:40:45So I think just jumping into another relationship
01:40:48very quickly and a very serious relationship,
01:40:51I think is a terrible way to get over a breakup.
01:40:55- Why?
01:40:57- Because I think you, A, you're still processing
01:41:00a tremendous amount of grief and trauma and loss.
01:41:03I think that you have to move through the stages of grief.
01:41:06I actually think you could look at Elizabeth Kubler-Ross'
01:41:09stages of death and dying and grief
01:41:11and you could apply those to,
01:41:12'cause all that's happened is a marriage has ended,
01:41:14a relationship has died.
01:41:15So you have to treat it like a death.
01:41:16We have to have the bargaining, the sadness.
01:41:19We have to have the anger.
01:41:20We have to have each of those stages
01:41:22before we can reach acceptance.
01:41:23You don't just get to skip.
01:41:24So I think you have to process those emotions.
01:41:26And I think that takes a little bit of time.
01:41:28I also don't think your divorce,
01:41:30you don't start to recover from your divorce
01:41:32until your divorce is done.
01:41:33So a lot of people are like,
01:41:34"Oh, we moved out months ago,"
01:41:35or, "Oh, we've been going through this for ages."
01:41:37So now, no, when it's actually done
01:41:39and you get the piece of paper
01:41:40that says you're officially divorced,
01:41:41that's when it's done.
01:41:42- The start line begins.
01:41:43- That's when you buried the dead body.
01:41:46Like saying that, "Oh no, this person died last week
01:41:48"and the funeral's next week, but I'm over.
01:41:49"Like they're dead."
01:41:50No, okay, when you see them lowered into the ground,
01:41:53now we've started the grieving process.
01:41:56So I think that's a piece of it.
01:41:58I think the best way, I mean,
01:42:00I believe that the people that A,
01:42:04have some body practice is really important.
01:42:07I know that's gonna sound really bro-ish,
01:42:09but I really do think that there is tremendous value in--
01:42:11- Body practice can be yoga, Pilates, running.
01:42:13- I think it can be yoga.
01:42:14Listen, I trained martial arts from the time I was seven
01:42:17until I was in my 20s.
01:42:19I trained Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate and Muay Thai kickboxing,
01:42:22and I gave it up.
01:42:23I stopped, I started running marathons.
01:42:25I focused on that.
01:42:26It was more friendly to the raising kids
01:42:28and things like that.
01:42:29When I got divorced, I went back to martial arts.
01:42:32That's when I took up Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
01:42:33Because I actually took up,
01:42:36well, Craig Jones actually said in an interview recently,
01:42:39like he was sort of slagging on somebody,
01:42:41it might've been Gordon, and he said like,
01:42:43"Guys, come on, this is cardio for divorced dads."
01:42:48And I thought, you know what,
01:42:49thank you for saying that out loud.
01:42:51- It's true.
01:42:52- That's exactly what it was to me.
01:42:52- You're listening to Creed, you're drinking White Monster,
01:42:55and you're gonna go and try and do octopus.
01:42:56- And you're gonna do struggle cuddles with a bunch of men
01:42:59that is essentially the minute you've sent
01:43:01a six-minute round with somebody,
01:43:03you're now sitting next to them with your arm around them,
01:43:05and you guys are best friends for life.
01:43:07Because there's this feeling of physical,
01:43:08what physical intimacy do men have who aren't homosexual
01:43:13with other men that you break that physical boundary,
01:43:17you spent up, there's tremendous trust in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
01:43:21I'm trusting that when I tap,
01:43:23you will stop and not snap my arm,
01:43:26or you will let go of my carotid arteries so I don't die.
01:43:30Like there is something really lovely about a stranger
01:43:33that I believe that promise,
01:43:35and you can believe my promise to that.
01:43:37- Yeah, it's a microculture that's very interesting.
01:43:39- So I think there's tremendous value in a physical practice
01:43:42or returning to some spiritual practice,
01:43:45whether it was meditation or some religious thing
01:43:47I've seen people go back to.
01:43:48I think that, again, they're really the same thing,
01:43:53which is to say reconnecting to another person
01:43:56while you are navigating a breakup, I think is ill-advised.
01:44:01Whereas connecting to aspects of self
01:44:04that you may have let go of
01:44:06in the pain of your difficult relationship
01:44:09that you're exiting, or becoming a beginner at something,
01:44:13or like if there was a sport you enjoyed,
01:44:16reconnecting to that sport.
01:44:17I think, A, there's tremendous value
01:44:19in having a physical practice.
01:44:20I think that there's tremendous value in sweating
01:44:23and going through all of that
01:44:24and overcoming physical adversity,
01:44:26maintaining a strong instrument and being physically healthy.
01:44:29A lot of my clients, they drink more than they should
01:44:32'cause they're going through something stressful.
01:44:33So finding healthy outlets for that,
01:44:34I think is really important.
01:44:36And also too, just improving that,
01:44:37that it creates a sense of community.
01:44:39I think you start to feel really alone
01:44:42when you're in a bad relationship.
01:44:43And then when you're ending that relationship,
01:44:45it's like, okay, well now I'm ending this relationship
01:44:48and I feel really alone 'cause I'm actually alone.
01:44:52And so there were times when,
01:44:54I mean, my kids were five and seven when I got divorced.
01:44:56And I remember when they were there,
01:44:59it was the most joyous, lovely feeling
01:45:01'cause now I had them there,
01:45:02but I didn't have the uncomfortable feeling of,
01:45:04oh, I'm with this person who I'm not really in love with.
01:45:07And like, I have to sort of pretend I'm happy,
01:45:10but I'm not really happy.
01:45:11Suddenly I could just be happy.
01:45:12I was with my kids and I was having,
01:45:15and then they would leave and the silence was deafening.
01:45:19I mean, it was a three-year-old and a five-year-old,
01:45:22like little kids, like little kids, they're so loud.
01:45:25They're boys, they were, and then they were just gone.
01:45:28And it was just this feeling of like,
01:45:30oh, like it's so quiet, you know?
01:45:33And they'll be back, but God, it's so quiet.
01:45:35And the greatest thing I did for myself,
01:45:40and I don't know what pushed me to do it,
01:45:44is I just started to create like routines.
01:45:46Like we live in a world of symbols.
01:45:48And what I would do is they would leave
01:45:51and I would make a point of doing all of the laundry
01:45:53of their clothes and washing their sheets.
01:45:56And then I would make their rooms.
01:45:58Like I would put their beds back just right.
01:46:01And I'd put their clothes in the drawers and it was ready.
01:46:04It was ready for when they were back.
01:46:07And something about reconnecting,
01:46:09like caregiving in that way, and then reconnecting to,
01:46:12no, no, the stage is set and they'll be back.
01:46:16And then I gave myself permission to go,
01:46:18okay, now they're not here.
01:46:20You go be you now.
01:46:21You go figure out what that is, who that man is,
01:46:23because that's someone they're going to be watching
01:46:25and going, hey, who is that man?
01:46:27What does he do, you know?
01:46:28And so that gave me a tremendous strength
01:46:31and it really helped me navigate that challenge.
01:46:34And I think that that is the kind of thing
01:46:37that people can do.
01:46:38And again, this is not exclusively male.
01:46:40I think women can do the exact same thing.
01:46:42I think that when your children go back to the co-parent
01:46:45or when, again, even if you don't have children,
01:46:47if you return, or get a pet, like having a pet,
01:46:50having something, I think my mother used to say to me,
01:46:53you need someplace to go, something to do,
01:46:55and something to love.
01:46:57And if you're missing any of those three things,
01:46:59you're going to have unhappiness, right?
01:47:01So I think that having something to love
01:47:04is really, really important.
01:47:05If it's children, great, you have your children.
01:47:07If you don't have children, you have a pet.
01:47:09If you don't have friends, like, but connection.
01:47:12I think we're social creatures
01:47:13and I think we just have to find that connection.
01:47:15'Cause what is divorce, but a deep disconnection, you know?
01:47:19And it's a disconnection that may have happened
01:47:22over a long time.
01:47:23Like we've fallen in love so fast, so fast,
01:47:27and it's so powerful and amazing.
01:47:30And then we fall out of love, like the way we go bankrupt,
01:47:33very slowly and then all at once.
01:47:35And when it goes, there is this part of us
01:47:41that sees it happening and just goes,
01:47:43"Oh no, is this really happening?"
01:47:45- There's this one time that comes to mind for me
01:47:47where I actually remember this deceleration.
01:47:50It felt like falling off the edge of a rollercoaster.
01:47:52And it was very slowly.
01:47:53And then, "Oh, fuck."
01:47:57- Yeah, and falling feels like flying for a little while.
01:48:01Then you hit the fucking ground.
01:48:02- Until you hit the ground.
01:48:03- And then it's a real wake up call.
01:48:05And, but again, like I see,
01:48:09and again, I think it's a function of age.
01:48:11I look back on the loves of my life
01:48:15and I look back on even like the great pains of my life.
01:48:21Losing my mom to cancer, all of the hard things.
01:48:25And I realized like just how much was in there,
01:48:30like emotionally, like how much material was in there.
01:48:33And I have to tell you like the journey of that
01:48:37is I've learned so much from all of those things.
01:48:41And I feel like they were all so formative of me.
01:48:44And I also just, I don't know,
01:48:47I love stories that have that full range of human emotion.
01:48:51And there's something about,
01:48:53there is a saying that only unfulfilled love
01:48:59can be truly romantic.
01:49:01Like that there's something about
01:49:03riding the whole spectrum of connection
01:49:06and then disconnection and then,
01:49:09but you know, it's very funny.
01:49:10I've been in therapy for many years
01:49:12and sometimes you know you're in therapy
01:49:15it's 'cause your life's on fire.
01:49:16You know, like your marriage is ending,
01:49:17your mom is dying, whatever it might be.
01:49:19And then there's times where you're in therapy
01:49:21where you're like, hey, this is about just like
01:49:22trying to see my blind spots,
01:49:24trying to get better at being me,
01:49:26seeing connections I might not have seen.
01:49:28And I have to say like that there is, in my view,
01:49:35like tremendous value in,
01:49:38I had to switch therapists.
01:49:41I'd been with a therapist for like 15 years and he retired.
01:49:44So I had to find a new therapist.
01:49:46And the funniest moment was in that early,
01:49:50'cause having the same therapist for 15 years,
01:49:51like they've seen you through a lot of things.
01:49:53You don't have to fill in the blanks,
01:49:54they know your whole history.
01:49:56And all of a sudden there's a stranger across from me
01:49:59and I'm about to talk to them about me.
01:50:00And I'm like, they have no context.
01:50:02So you find yourself sort of giving like the Wikipedia page
01:50:05of your life.
01:50:06And as I was doing it, I remember thinking like,
01:50:10oh, there are things that felt like epic tales
01:50:14that are now three sentences.
01:50:17Yeah, I married my college sweetheart
01:50:19and we were married for about 10 years and we had two kids
01:50:21and then we got divorced and it was relatively friendly.
01:50:24That's it, that's all that was.
01:50:26But when it was going on, the world was ending.
01:50:31Were my kids gonna be okay?
01:50:33Was I gonna be okay?
01:50:34Was she gonna be okay?
01:50:35Like what was this gonna do?
01:50:37Like who were gonna be our friends and who weren't?
01:50:40Who was gonna be team her and team me
01:50:41even though there weren't teams?
01:50:42And how would we explain that to people?
01:50:44And now you look at it and you go like,
01:50:46oh, it was just a thing.
01:50:48You know what I think people are looking for?
01:50:49I think people are looking to feel alive.
01:50:52And my housemate George has this idea of alive mode
01:50:56and dead mode.
01:50:57And what you feel even going through a heartbreak,
01:51:02tumult, aliveness.
01:51:06This is some fucking life.
01:51:10There's some life happening right here.
01:51:12And it's the same thing that you feel
01:51:14when you close the deal.
01:51:15It's the same thing you feel when you sell the business.
01:51:17It's the same thing you feel when you fall in love
01:51:19and you fall out of love.
01:51:20And yeah, sure, there is a flavor to one that is enjoyable
01:51:23and a flavor to another that is painful.
01:51:25But in some ways, it's better than that Wednesday afternoon
01:51:30where you can't remember anything that you did.
01:51:32- Yeah, I don't wanna die without any scars.
01:51:35Like I wanna earn all those scars
01:51:37and I wanna look at every one of them and go like,
01:51:39oh yeah, that was this insanity.
01:51:41That was this and I love that.
01:51:44- And to your point about I sort of got on with things
01:51:48and I gave myself a routine
01:51:49and I rediscovered the stuff that I'd lost.
01:51:51Anxiety really hates a moving target.
01:51:53The action is the antidote to anxiety with that.
01:51:56I wanted to get you to react to an image
01:51:59that had been going very viral for a while.
01:52:00I'm not sure if you've seen this.
01:52:01You may have done already.
01:52:02- Sure.
01:52:03Yeah.
01:52:05- So it's a famous image of Pierce Brosnan and his wife.
01:52:08And I think it's maybe 20 years apart, something like that.
01:52:10And it's him and her at what looks like the height
01:52:13of his 007 fame.
01:52:15And she's looking very young and then it's him and her
01:52:18and she's gained a lot in the chest
01:52:20and got a little bit older, but so is he.
01:52:22And the best response that I saw to that,
01:52:24dear man, this is your daily reminder to avoid marriage.
01:52:26The best response that I saw to that was
01:52:30that man hasn't aged a day in three decades.
01:52:34Where do you think that regulation came from?
01:52:37That is the single best advert that you could see for marriage
01:52:42because look at how he is flourishing.
01:52:46And is that really the thing that you're-
01:52:48- But see, I'm shocked that anyone looks at that.
01:52:52Like, first of all, this is a successful marriage
01:52:56in an industry where there is no such thing.
01:53:00Like I have done a lot of actor divorces and believe me,
01:53:03they suck at being married.
01:53:05And so this is a successful happy marriage
01:53:09that produced children, it is a long marriage.
01:53:14Now I will tell you, I don't know these two people.
01:53:19That is still a very beautiful woman.
01:53:21- Damn right it is. - Has she gained weight?
01:53:22Okay, she's gained weight.
01:53:24- Pierce Brosnan has gained great.
01:53:26- Right, okay, but this is a stunningly beautiful woman.
01:53:30And this is a woman who is aging appropriately, right?
01:53:33So she's not trying to do 50 million-
01:53:35- Aging better than appropriately, but yeah.
01:53:37- But I'm saying she's not trying to undo the inevitable.
01:53:41And the truth is like, if you're with a partner long-term,
01:53:46you don't always see those changes as much.
01:53:51Just like you don't notice in yourself
01:53:53that you've gained or lost weight until stuff feels tight.
01:53:56- How old do you think your mom sees you
01:53:58when she looks at you?
01:53:59You're still 12. - Right, right, right.
01:54:00And so isn't that a beautiful expression of love?
01:54:05Like I always tell people when they talk about this sort of
01:54:07like, oh, well, you're gonna age and when someone ages,
01:54:10okay, I have a dog that is 16 years old.
01:54:15I got that dog when the dog was four months old.
01:54:18What a youth, the dog is now deaf, okay?
01:54:23Gets up every morning tail wagging,
01:54:24can't wait to eat breakfast.
01:54:26He's got a great quality of life.
01:54:27When he no longer has a great quality of life,
01:54:29I will do the thing you need to do,
01:54:31which is to the brave and difficult choice.
01:54:35But he wakes up every day tail wagging,
01:54:37has to get carried up and down the stairs.
01:54:39But once he's there, can't wait to eat his meal,
01:54:41can't wait to do his thing.
01:54:42So he's a happy dog.
01:54:44Do you think I look at that dog,
01:54:47deaf, has to be carried up and down the stairs
01:54:50and go, dude, I gotta get a puppy.
01:54:53This is like this fucking dog.
01:54:54Look at this old ass dog, can't even hear anything.
01:54:57Like puppies can chase ball.
01:54:58These kid dogs chase balls.
01:55:00He was so fun.
01:55:01He used to run like a wind.
01:55:02I got videos of it on my phone.
01:55:03Now look at him, he's like a broken little thing.
01:55:06The opposite, the opposite.
01:55:08I love that dog more and more.
01:55:10I know I'm in the bonus rounds.
01:55:12I know I don't have all that much time.
01:55:14And I have to tell you, I fucking love that dog.
01:55:16If you, how do you know that those people
01:55:20don't look at each other and just go, look at us.
01:55:23And look at that photo of us when we were fucking kids.
01:55:27And we didn't know what it was going to be.
01:55:29And we were so scared, and here we are, right.
01:55:33And by the way, you won, you won.
01:55:37That's escape velocity.
01:55:39That is escape velocity.
01:55:40How do you look at that and not admire it?
01:55:43And by that, so, but again, I get it.
01:55:46If you're that unbelievably shallow,
01:55:50that you go, oh, could Pierce,
01:55:52Pierce Brosnan is a handsome, successful man.
01:55:55He could pull 20 something year olds easily.
01:55:58And have his, and have his mind turned inside out
01:56:01by the inability.
01:56:02But I'm saying, this is not a man who doesn't have options.
01:56:05And this is a person who he chooses.
01:56:08And I'm sure, and she, I'm sure has choices as well.
01:56:11So you, you look at these two people
01:56:13and I would look at that and say, wow,
01:56:15that's a success story.
01:56:16That's something to aspire to.
01:56:18Again, if they're happy, if they find joy in each other.
01:56:21But to just look at that and that's more about
01:56:23what you are seeing in your life and your emotional state
01:56:28than anything that's actually going on
01:56:29between those two people.
01:56:30- James Sexton, ladies and gentlemen.
01:56:33Dude, you absolutely rule.
01:56:35I think you're fantastic.
01:56:36I love your work.
01:56:37- I love the admiration.
01:56:38- I love the framing that you're placing around this.
01:56:40The relatedness.
01:56:43It's so good.
01:56:44- It means a lot.
01:56:46I think these are important conversations.
01:56:49I think, I didn't have a title for it until today.
01:56:52But yeah, I think that,
01:56:53I think we need to have the gentle manosphere.
01:56:56Like, I think we have to have, you know,
01:56:58we have to have a dialogue again.
01:57:00One of the things I think is most important about stuff
01:57:03like Scott is talking about is,
01:57:05look, what is non-toxic masculinity?
01:57:08'Cause if the answer is femininity,
01:57:09then that's not an answer.
01:57:10Like, I'd like to understand.
01:57:12And I think we have, there is a conversation out there.
01:57:16There is a large number of people, men and women,
01:57:20that are looking at the current state of things and going,
01:57:22yeah, this isn't working.
01:57:24And the fact that I'm so goddamn busy professionally
01:57:26and all my colleagues are too, is a testament to the fact.
01:57:29(laughing)
01:57:30Is a testament to the fact that we're doing something wrong.
01:57:33- We're tapping the well of it going wrong.
01:57:34Yeah, exactly.
01:57:35- 'Cause nobody meant to get divorced.
01:57:37And yet, the divorce rate is up.
01:57:39And my prediction is it's only gonna keep going up.
01:57:43So, I think we have to figure out
01:57:46how to fix the individual components.
01:57:48And then how to bring them back
01:57:50into some kind of serious, meaningful dialogue.
01:57:52So, but thanks for having me, man.
01:57:54This was a blast.
01:57:55- You're amazing, man.
01:57:56- Great to see you.
01:57:56- We've talked loads and it's so great to meet you.
01:57:58Buck, where should people go?
01:58:00- You can get How to Stay in Love,
01:58:01anywhere where fine books are sold.
01:58:02You can listen to it on Audible or download that.
01:58:05You can listen to me talk for eight and a half hours
01:58:06if that's your thing.
01:58:07You can find me on Instagram at @nycdivorcelawyer.
01:58:10I post a lot there.
01:58:11And you can go to sextonshow.com.
01:58:13That's got a lot of my appearances
01:58:15and it's got a lot of my point of view on stuff.
01:58:18- Heck yeah.
01:58:19Until next time, man.
01:58:20Appreciate you.
01:58:21- You got it.
01:58:22- Thank you very much for tuning in.
01:58:23Congratulations for making it
01:58:25to the end of an entire episode.
01:58:28Another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.