Why Some Goals Feel Effortless (and others hurt) - Chris Bailey

English
CChris Williamson
Mental HealthManagementAdult Education

Transcript

00:00:00Given all of the work that you've done, why is it that some goals feel effortless and
00:00:05others feel like a chore?
00:00:07Yeah, it's such an interesting question and that was what I wanted to figure out with
00:00:13this book because I find with my own life, I'm productive on a daily basis, I'm focused
00:00:18on a daily, as you would hope, given I study this stuff for a living, looking at the research
00:00:22for this stuff for a living, but there were still goals that kind of fell by the wayside
00:00:28for me.
00:00:30Exercise equipment that was in the basement that I hadn't really followed through with,
00:00:35things that didn't really fire me up inside that I found that I wasn't really accomplishing.
00:00:41That was what set me on this journey to write this book is seeing that we all have a sort
00:00:46of graveyard of forgotten goals.
00:00:49Every single person on the planet does and so what is it that actually separates the goals
00:00:55that we're able to achieve and follow through with from the ones that we're not?
00:01:01When you dig into the research on this topic, I dug into the academic literature on this
00:01:06topic.
00:01:07I actually spoke with a lot of Buddhist monks who know more about intentionality than almost
00:01:13any demographic, I would argue, even the scientists that study intentionality and goal attainment,
00:01:19all in an effort to untangle that web of essentially goal attainment.
00:01:26Why is it that we attain some goals and others, they feel meaningless, we kick them down the
00:01:34street for another day or they're just not something that fires us up inside?
00:01:40You discover a web of factors.
00:01:41You discover procrastination is one angle.
00:01:46We procrastinate on some things when we follow through on others.
00:01:50Values are another angle actually.
00:01:52Values my eyes have always glazed over when I've heard that, "What are you drinking there
00:01:55by the way?
00:01:56Looks good."
00:01:57This is one of the rare times that I'm drinking something that I'm not sponsored by.
00:02:04This is a bloom pop.
00:02:06Hold on, by the way, everyone's like, "Fuck, I want to know what it is after procrastination."
00:02:11He was talking about values.
00:02:13This is bloom pop.
00:02:16My friend Greg Laveckia, he owns this company called Bloom.
00:02:19They do greens drinks.
00:02:21This is like a poppy or an ollipop if you're familiar with that.
00:02:25No.
00:02:26Is that a UK thing?
00:02:27No.
00:02:28I'm in Texas, dude.
00:02:29Oh, okay.
00:02:30I'm Canadian, though.
00:02:31Okay.
00:02:32Maybe it hasn't got there.
00:02:33You guys have just received the fucking wheel.
00:02:38This bloom pop stuff fucking rips, dude.
00:02:40It's so tasty.
00:02:41I'm a massive fan of a chilled beverage.
00:02:42I'm a big chilled beverage guy.
00:02:44So highly recommend this is the raspberry lemonade.
00:02:48And I'm not sponsored, but Greg was at my house for the Super Bowl and he brought around cases
00:02:54and cases of it.
00:02:55So I'm nice.
00:02:56Well, shame on him for not sponsoring you, first of all.
00:02:59But yes, there's this web of things that affect how many of our goals we attain from procrastinating
00:03:09the answer from procrastination to values, to desire.
00:03:14There's a lot of science behind desire as well and social contagion.
00:03:18And so you discover just how many little nodes there are.
00:03:21But a lot of the little things that either lead us to do something or not, they seem to
00:03:28orbit around both aversion, which leads to procrastination, as well as values, which sounds
00:03:34like an incredibly fluffy topic, but I promise it isn't, there's real science behind that
00:03:40too.
00:03:41Okay.
00:03:42Talk to me about the science behind values.
00:03:43Okay.
00:03:44Yes.
00:03:45So whenever I hear the word values, my eyes have glazed over because I think, you know,
00:03:50some corporate consultant will come in and they'll give you a sheet of paper and there's
00:03:54a hundred values on it.
00:03:56And this is exactly what comes to my mind when I've heard it.
00:04:00And there'll be a hundred words on the page and they'll circle the things that you value
00:04:05most on this page.
00:04:06And there'll be words like humor and grace and love and health and fitness.
00:04:13So, you know, all the things that we all care about.
00:04:16And so, you know, part of me will want to circle the whole page because I think, how can I be
00:04:21against any of this stuff?
00:04:23But all you have to do to figure out values is go to Google scholar and type in values.
00:04:27The research does come right up.
00:04:30There is incredible research, in my opinion, that was started by Shalom Schwartz.
00:04:37He's probably the world's foremost expert on values in the world where essentially there
00:04:43are 12 different fundamental motivations that we all have on a deep and fundamental level.
00:04:53So these vary from, you know, looking at you, self-direction would be one aspect.
00:05:01Accomplishment is another strong value for a lot of people, but they vary, right?
00:05:06Pleasure is a fundamental human value as well, which is one of my highest.
00:05:11Self-direction and pleasure are my highest.
00:05:13So I love going my own way, doing my own thing, thinking my own thoughts, but I love a gigantic
00:05:21plate of butter chicken at the end of the day, for example.
00:05:23So we all have a different combination of these 12 values.
00:05:29From self-direction to conformity is actually a fundamental value, to tradition, humility
00:05:35is a fundamental value as well, to benevolence, so kindness, universalism, which is protecting
00:05:41the welfare of people and of nature.
00:05:44I have the wheel in front of me here, so I'm cheating a little bit with the ones I missed.
00:05:48So self-direction, stimulation, which is loving novelty, pleasure, which is called hedonism
00:05:53in the research, but that has a lot of, you know, sultry connotations, I guess.
00:05:59Achievement power is a fundamental human value, curious, it's lowest overall, cross-culturally
00:06:06especially.
00:06:07Face is a value, so how you come across other people, that's what that means.
00:06:12Security is a fundamental value, so that's personal security and societal security.
00:06:17That's been going up in recent years.
00:06:20Tradition got that conformity, I think I mentioned, yeah, humility, universalism, and benevolence.
00:06:24So these 12 fundamental values, we are all a distinct combination of these 12.
00:06:33We have some in spades, like for me, self-direction and pleasure/hedonism, and some are super low
00:06:40for us.
00:06:41So power is one of my lowest values, conformity is one of my lowest, tradition is one of my
00:06:45lowest, and you know, like attracts likes, so we're probably very similar, listeners are
00:06:50probably very similar in these regards, but we all have different values that are strongest
00:06:56for us, and these are what motivate us the most on a deep fundamental human level.
00:07:05Goals on values though.
00:07:07No, no, so goals, the interesting thing about goals that I really started to believe in speaking
00:07:20with the monks, you're right, goals are not values, but I think goals and values are both
00:07:26almost intentions in our life, right?
00:07:29Because a value is something that we intend to be over the course of our life, right?
00:07:35We intend to be somebody who is secure, and so that might lead us to different priorities,
00:07:42like fitness for example.
00:07:43A lot of people invest in fitness for that value of security.
00:07:47Other people might value the accomplishment value, becoming better.
00:07:52Other people might, you know, to have a body that they feel proud of, for example.
00:07:56And goals are intentions as well, right?
00:08:00Because there's something that we plan to do over a longer period of time.
00:08:04And values are intentions as well, because they're something that we intend to be.
00:08:09And so this was the very interesting connection is, you know, an intention is just a plan that
00:08:15we're going to do something.
00:08:17And so values are a type of intention, priorities are a type of intention, right?
00:08:24Because they're something that we plan to be.
00:08:26They kind of live between our values and our goals.
00:08:31Goals are a type of intention, because they're something that we plan to do.
00:08:36Priorities are goals.
00:08:37And also the plans that we make are intentions.
00:08:39And the things that are on our to-do list on a daily basis are intentions.
00:08:44So this is the fascinating thing, this is why the book is called Intentional, because we
00:08:48have all these different layers of intention in our life.
00:08:52And so by understanding these layers, and how they can work together with one another, that
00:09:00becomes a superpower.
00:09:02That is one of the best things that we can do for goal attainment.
00:09:05Okay.
00:09:06Explain to me how all of these different things slot together.
00:09:08I imagine that you must have a hierarchy of the way that these things end up becoming a
00:09:13pyramid.
00:09:14Yes.
00:09:15Oh, yes.
00:09:16They are kind of shaped like a pyramid, because you can think of the, I'm flipping through
00:09:20the book.
00:09:21I don't know, what's the ratio between how many people listen to these things versus watch
00:09:26your interviews?
00:09:27Well, now that you can do video on Spotify, the audio platforms aren't even insulated from
00:09:34having to look at us.
00:09:35So it's pretty high.
00:09:36I mean, even just YouTube versus Spotify is nearly pretty 50/50.
00:09:41There's a lot.
00:09:42Audio is huge.
00:09:43Yeah.
00:09:44Audio is actually probably about 60%.
00:09:46But yeah, a lot of people will be looking, but you might have to describe what you're
00:09:52about to show for the people who aren't.
00:09:53Okay.
00:09:54So I was just flipping through the book while you were chatting, and there's one of my wife's
00:09:57hairs on the book for some reason.
00:09:58So this is something in the book that I call the intention stack.
00:10:02It's flipped on my screen, but it'll probably flip that properly.
00:10:05It looks great.
00:10:06Okay, perfect.
00:10:07So you can see, how's this for production quality, holding up a picture from the book?
00:10:12Elite.
00:10:13Absolutely elite.
00:10:14This is top tier, S tier production quality right here.
00:10:18So you can see that the width of one of our intentions is how long we express it over,
00:10:26right?
00:10:27So at the very bottom of this, it's kind of shaped like a funnel almost.
00:10:32We have our present intentions.
00:10:34These are the things that are on our to do list, right?
00:10:37We have a tiny intention to tie our shoelaces to go for a run or something.
00:10:42And then we have above the present intentions.
00:10:45Now you got me all self-conscious because so many people watch your podcasts.
00:10:48I think, how are my nails today?
00:10:51Because my nails are- You look fantastic.
00:10:55So above the present intentions we have are our plans, which are a bit broader.
00:11:00So a present intention to tie your shoelaces might fit into a plan to go for a run.
00:11:05And that might fit into even something broader than that, which is a goal to run a marathon
00:11:10in a certain amount of time, which might fit into a broader intention than that called a
00:11:15priority, which might fit into becoming ultra fit, which might fit into a value, which we
00:11:20talked about.
00:11:22So fitness value actually varies depending on gender, which is interesting for fitness
00:11:28type priorities, where as women are more likely to see becoming fitter as an expression of
00:11:35pleasure, right?
00:11:36Because they feel better in their bodies.
00:11:38Whereas men tend to err more on other values like security, right?
00:11:43Feeling strong and stable in their body, as well as values like accomplishment.
00:11:49So this is what I call the intention stack in the book, where there's this beautiful
00:11:55alignment that can happen when we have a goal that we set, which is kind of a medium term
00:12:01intention in our life.
00:12:03When that is aligned with a value, that becomes far, far more motivating than a goal that isn't.
00:12:10So to keep with the fitness example, I think a lot of us build our fitness goals around
00:12:17the value of face, right, how we come across other people, right?
00:12:20I want six-pack abs by beach season so I can look incredible, whatever it might look like.
00:12:28I like butter chicken too much for goals like this.
00:12:32I'd like a true Canadian.
00:12:34Yeah, yeah.
00:12:35Poutine, beaver tails, you know, hit all the Canadian staples.
00:12:39Poutine is actually delicious.
00:12:40You know poutine, right?
00:12:41Yeah.
00:12:42Okay.
00:12:43Okay, good.
00:12:44So that is one of our strong cultural exports, but if you don't value face, that goal to look
00:12:52a certain way by a certain amount of time, that's not going to be motivating for you.
00:12:56And you're going to find that you have this headwind for the goal all throughout the process
00:13:01where if you value security or benevolence, for example, having a goal to develop an incredible
00:13:10cardiovascular system for longevity and to be able to play with your grandkids late age,
00:13:16whatever it might look like, that's far more aligned to not only your values, but because
00:13:21your values make up who you are, there's that motivational alignment too.
00:13:26And so goals feel far more effortless in that way.
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00:14:39Why is it the case then that intentions feel slippery?
00:14:43Because a lot of the time we have, we start off with an intention, and over time we end
00:14:50up doing things that aren't aligned with that intention.
00:14:53Now sometimes that's because we've genuinely upgraded to something new, our intention has
00:14:59been supplanted by a different one, but other times it just feels like we're not acting
00:15:04intentionally.
00:15:05We kind of look back on our day and we ask ourselves what did I contribute to or what
00:15:10did I do, and you don't really know.
00:15:13What do you think about the intentionality as an idea?
00:15:18Yeah, so that's the interesting thing about intention.
00:15:21So intention at the same time is not only the key to accomplishing our goals, it often leads
00:15:28us to not accomplish our goals.
00:15:30So we have the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
00:15:35And it's because, and I've really started to see goals as something different over the course
00:15:43of writing this book and chatting with the scientists, but also more so chatting with
00:15:49the Buddhist monks in writing this book where there's kind of a reframe I think that we have
00:15:54to go through with the goals that we set, where we see a goal as something that we are going
00:16:00to accomplish or that we should compare our results to, right?
00:16:06But I've started to view goals, and I think this is a much better frame for them, as almost
00:16:11a prediction, right?
00:16:13Every goal is a prediction where you believe your current and your planned actions will
00:16:22take you, right?
00:16:24And so often those predictions, those goals, which are really predictions in disguise, they
00:16:31turn into expectations for how things will go, which then turn into disappointment when
00:16:38we inevitably aren't predicting the future properly, which we're horrible at predicting
00:16:43the future, right?
00:16:45We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone, we don't know if the hot water tank
00:16:50is going to break in our house and flood our basement and upend all of it.
00:16:53We don't know if a kid is going to get sick and have to stay home.
00:16:57We don't know how things are going to end up.
00:17:00But when goals are just predictions in disguise, I really think we have to internalize that
00:17:06idea and edit our goals as we go on, right?
00:17:10Because we develop this attachment to how we believe things are going to go.
00:17:16And so we set a goal, we develop an attachment to it, turns into an expectation, which turns
00:17:21into an inevitable disappointment usually.
00:17:24To take New Year's resolutions, for example, which have mostly fallen by the wayside by
00:17:29the time people will listen to this podcast or watch it, 92% of us fail at the New Year's
00:17:35resolutions we make because we set them with these beautiful hopes, right?
00:17:40We're like that classic trope of somebody who just arrived in New York City and she hops
00:17:49off the bus and she's got this big smile on her face and then cut to a year later when
00:17:56the future that she didn't predict ends up happening and then she's in her one bedroom
00:18:00apartment looking all sad or something.
00:18:03The same thing happens with our goals because they really are predictions in disguise.
00:18:07So holding them a bit more loosely, and I think editing them and dropping them is also a really
00:18:14helpful strategy.
00:18:15Holding them is not something that's fixed, but that we need to revise over time and then
00:18:20often drop when they're not working out is an incredible strategy for actually following
00:18:25through with them because we get closer to what we actually want.
00:18:29There has to be a difference between default intentions and deliberate intentions though.
00:18:36Yeah, and this was a surprising thing that really came up in the research where you think
00:18:46of an intention as being always deliberate, right?
00:18:48We intend to do something so we do it or not, right, a lot of the time.
00:18:54But there really are these two types of intentions.
00:18:57So like I was saying a little bit ago, an intention is just a plan that we're going to do something.
00:19:03We set plans to do things both automatically, right, which are called habits, right?
00:19:10So you wake up in the morning and maybe your phone wakes you up and so you tap, you swipe
00:19:15around between a few different apps and you respond.
00:19:19That's habit energy, which is what monks call just living on our default intentions.
00:19:24But eventually a time will come when you snap out of those default intentions that you have.
00:19:31When you're lying in bed, you know, you're not really feeling what you're doing.
00:19:36And so you think, okay, what do I really want here in this situation?
00:19:41What do I really want to get out of my day?
00:19:44What do I really need to accomplish?
00:19:47We all have these little moments of awakening where we go from being on autopilot mode, just
00:19:52doing things in response to whatever is happening around us, to tapping into something that is
00:19:58called our self-reflective capacity, which is our ability to look inward to where we
00:20:04really wish to be going, what we really want to be getting out of a situation.
00:20:09And interestingly, you know, so we go from living on default intention to these deliberate
00:20:15intentions and we snap out of just this autopilot mode and really decide where to go.
00:20:22It's quite a beautiful transition actually.
00:20:25The more we do that, the more deliberately intentional we become and the more we end up
00:20:32accomplishing of what we want, right?
00:20:34We need these moments of awakening.
00:20:36Where do our defaults come from?
00:20:37Oh, I love these questions.
00:20:42They come from a lot of different places.
00:20:43So I remember early on in the writing journey asking a monk, where do intentions come from
00:20:52in general?
00:20:54And he listed a lot of different sources that actually mapped on top of the research from
00:20:59the social environments that we're a part of, right?
00:21:01We have this phenomenon of social contagion where, you know, there's the classic saying
00:21:07where the average of the five people we spend our most time with.
00:21:11We have our desire to avoid pain and experience greater pleasure.
00:21:17We have, you know, and so that leads us to walk up and say hi to somebody at a cafe or
00:21:24just connect with somebody or go on Tinder, whatever it looks like, right?
00:21:30But we have our biology too, which, you know, is probably connected a little bit with the
00:21:34Tinder example.
00:21:35But, you know, we're on a road trip, for example, and we feel the urge to go to the washroom.
00:21:40And so we set an intention to stop at the next, you know, rest stop, for example.
00:21:45But we also have, so those are the more default places that intentions tend to come from.
00:21:51But then we have this gradient where we transition from living on default, living on autopilot
00:21:58mode, just not really achieving the goals that we set, but, you know, doing fine.
00:22:04We're kind of maintaining the life that we have.
00:22:08We go from being on deliberate or default autopilot mode to being more deliberate about what we
00:22:14do.
00:22:15So one of those places that intentions come from are the lessons we've learned, right?
00:22:19So you listen to an incredible book, a great podcast, you read a book, you listen to Chris
00:22:25or the other Chris, me, you know, sharing ideas or whatever it might look like, you learn something.
00:22:32And what that does is it puts a learning loop in your mind so that when you encounter the
00:22:37same situation in the future, you'll respond with a different intention from the one that
00:22:43you had originally.
00:22:45The deepest ones come from a place beyond that, right?
00:22:48I think one of the times I was on in the past, you know, we were chatting about scatter focus,
00:22:53this mind wandering mode where we just let our mind roam free and we find that it wanders
00:22:58to the future a remarkable amount of time.
00:23:02Forty eight percent of the time that our mind is wandering, it's thinking about the future.
00:23:05So we're taking a shower, for example, or we're going for a run, we're going for a walk and
00:23:10we're listening to classical music or something with a notepad in our pocket.
00:23:14And we always unearth ideas.
00:23:16We always unearth plans and we always tap into this intentional capacity that's in our mind
00:23:25to set different intentions from the ones that we would be doing on default.
00:23:30So it looks very interesting in practice where, you know, often becoming more intentional to
00:23:36break out of the mold, it looks like more wandering sometimes because that gives us a different
00:23:43way to go than the one that we would be inclined to do by default.
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00:24:33It's interesting the difference between giving yourself enough room so that you can actually
00:24:40allow ideas to come to the surface.
00:24:42You can't white knuckle creativity to the line that I love.
00:24:47It sort of needs to emerge spontaneously, but also that gets perilously close to not taking
00:24:53the wheel, which is just living on default intentions and not really having that much
00:24:59structure and not really choosing the direction that you're going in or taking agency.
00:25:04Life happens to you, you don't happen to life.
00:25:08I think a lot of people struggle with the tension between structure and sort of serendipity
00:25:17might be a good way to put it from a cognitive standpoint.
00:25:21Yeah.
00:25:22And it's very interesting, the little gaps in our day as well, where that's sometimes
00:25:29where our greatest intentions come from.
00:25:31It's in these little moments between things.
00:25:34So if we're having a conversation, right after this conversation, we pick up our phone
00:25:38or something, you know, intentions might never occur to us.
00:25:43That would be incredibly valuable to us both.
00:25:46If you're walking to a meeting or something, right, you're at your office or something,
00:25:50you're walking to a different office in your building.
00:25:53And on the way there, you're on your phone.
00:25:57Intentions aren't going to occur to you because you don't tap into this wandering mode.
00:26:01So there really are these two levels of wandering where we have the little gaps in between the
00:26:06things that we do, especially before and after we do something.
00:26:11That's sometimes the most fruitful time to wander because beforehand you set an intention
00:26:16because you're thinking about the future and the impending thing is so front of mind that
00:26:22you're more likely to wander to it for about half the time.
00:26:27It's probably closer to 75, 80% of the time that you'll be thinking about the future, just
00:26:32automatically setting intentions.
00:26:35And after too, right, it's the learning loop where you can set different intentions or think
00:26:41of action items from a meeting or, you know, something as simple as that, or, you know,
00:26:46you have a meaningful conversation.
00:26:47So at a coffee shop with a good friend or something, and so you can reflect on it on the walk back
00:26:54home instead of just filling your attention to the brim or distracting yourself, you can
00:26:59actually internalize something that leads you to set different intentions later on.
00:27:05And so the default intentions that we have, you know, a lot of them are habits, but we
00:27:10need some reinforcement mechanism almost so that the more deliberate things we do can change
00:27:20our defaults, if that makes sense.
00:27:22Yeah, it does.
00:27:23I think I got a bit of stick for suggesting that New Year's resolutions are important on
00:27:29a podcast a couple of months ago.
00:27:32And I'm not saying that there's anything special, particularly about January 1st.
00:27:36But the point I did think was kind of interesting is that people are already obsessing over the
00:27:42future and ruminating about the past.
00:27:44They're just doing it in an unstructured way.
00:27:46Yeah.
00:27:47Right.
00:27:48So it's just invading your life that careens into consciousness.
00:27:52You don't know where it came from.
00:27:53You don't know how long it's going to linger.
00:27:54You can't get rid of it.
00:27:56And then it leaves.
00:27:57And you go, I guess that was kind of like me planning and reflecting, except for the fact
00:28:03that it felt bad.
00:28:04I didn't mean it to happen.
00:28:05I was supposed to be doing something else and it wasn't in any way productive or contributing
00:28:09to my life.
00:28:10Like, okay, why don't we then every so often just take a little bit of time, take it down
00:28:14beat.
00:28:15But speaking of that, you know, New Year's resolution is kind of one of the go-to garden
00:28:19variety productivity tools.
00:28:22Smart goals are another one.
00:28:24And you seem to take a bit of issue with smart goals, something that every business undergrad
00:28:31from all times has become familiar with.
00:28:33What's your issue with smart goals?
00:28:34Yeah, seriously.
00:28:35I actually have never had an issue with them until I encountered the research on them.
00:28:40So I personally thought smart goals would be a shoo-in for this book.
00:28:45And because I've written about them in the past, they sound incredible, right?
00:28:49These goals that are specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, and time-bound, smart.
00:28:55It sounds like it should work, right?
00:28:58You know, they're smart.
00:29:00Why would you set dumb goals or something?
00:29:03But then you look at the research on them where, and if you don't believe me, you know, and
00:29:09I hope to actually stir up a bit of controversy with this, but I can't wait for the productivity
00:29:16community to be up in arms, they'll be using the fucking Alfred extensions and their notion
00:29:21templates to send you big, long arguments about why smart goals are actually underrated and
00:29:25overrated.
00:29:26Yeah.
00:29:27They're going to have their keyboard maestro scripts automatically interact with Claude
00:29:33Cowork to do a deep research into just what's wrong with me or something, I don't know.
00:29:39But it's so interesting because I thought they'd be a shoo-in for the book, right?
00:29:44Real specific goals, incredible, don't we want our goals to be attainable, that sort of thing.
00:29:51But when you look at the research, and if you don't believe me, go to Google Scholar and
00:29:55type in smart goals, you'll see what comes up, you might be as surprised as I was.
00:30:01It turns out realistic goals often aren't good enough, right?
00:30:05We're limiting our potential when we make a goal merely realistic because when we make
00:30:11a goal challenging, the research shows we actually achieve more than we would otherwise by simply
00:30:18making it kind of a low-hanging bar or something that we can just step over.
00:30:23And there's also redundancy in the criteria, right?
00:30:26So aren't measurable goals also specific, for example?
00:30:32And I looked into the research on where did this actually come from?
00:30:37And it came from the smart goals originated as an article in a management review, it wasn't
00:30:45an academic journal, it was just kind of an article somebody wrote on how to better manage
00:30:50your employees.
00:30:51And it didn't stand for what the current acronym does today.
00:30:55And so it's kind of like the 10,000 step rule or the 10,000 hour rule, these nice kind of
00:31:02things that sound like they should work.
00:31:04And so there's a virality that's associated with it that kind of gets morphed into a cultural
00:31:11game of telephone ever since they were introduced.
00:31:14And so this was actually quite a big surprise for me because these sound so good.
00:31:20And I remember encountering this research, writing about it in the book, I actually had
00:31:27a little bit of a chapter drafted about smart goals, but I thought, okay, I need some research
00:31:33backing here, did a deep dive into the research and found that there's, a lot of researchers
00:31:38say that there's even research waste that occurs around smart goals because it seems like they
00:31:44make sense to study.
00:31:46So many businesses do them.
00:31:47I can't wait to hit the speaking circuit for this book and tell every business-
00:31:53Ruin everyone.
00:31:54Yeah, exactly.
00:31:55Really just cause controversy within all these companies and stuff.
00:32:01University controversies are probably the lowest stakes and least important controversy you
00:32:08can ever imagine.
00:32:09There's some political ones at the moment that seem equally stupid, but yeah.
00:32:12Yeah.
00:32:13Yeah.
00:32:14There's stupid controversy and enough of it to go around it at any given time in this kind
00:32:19of outraged, driven algorithmic world that we're in, but yeah, smart goals, maybe we should
00:32:24have something because then we could set actually better goals that are rooted in not only our
00:32:30values, right?
00:32:31We can edit our goals over time so that they're better fit for our values.
00:32:35We can actually overcome a lot of the things that are getting in the way of our goals too,
00:32:40like a lack of alignment with the social environments we're a part of, like procrastination, which
00:32:45is another huge, huge inhibitor to just how much we're able to accomplish in our day, in
00:32:52our life.
00:32:53Yeah.
00:32:54Let's talk about, let's talk about procrastination.
00:32:55I have to assume procrastination gets in the way for lots of people, that there's a thing,
00:33:05they understand their intention, it hasn't got slippery, it hasn't dropped out of their
00:33:09mind and for some reason, the thing that they need to do in order to move themselves toward
00:33:14achieving the intention, for some reason, they can't get started or they keep on stopping
00:33:23or something.
00:33:24How did you learn procrastination, big picture?
00:33:26Yeah.
00:33:27So big picture, very big picture.
00:33:31There are, for any goal, we have this function of desire where we either desire doing it,
00:33:38which is usually aligned with our values actually.
00:33:40So the more aligned something is with what we value, that's our motivational nature, our
00:33:45unique motivational nature, I should say.
00:33:48And so that's the desire component, the values component, but then there's the aversion component
00:33:53where to get how much you actually care about something or want to do something, you have
00:33:59to subtract how much aversion you have to doing it from the amount of desire and sometimes
00:34:04we end up in the negative.
00:34:05And so there's a lot of goals that we don't want to follow through with.
00:34:09There's a negative amount of energy around that goal and so we punt it down the street
00:34:14for a later day, it's called procrastination.
00:34:17But the interesting thing about procrastination is it's a purely visceral and emotional reaction
00:34:26to something that we don't want to do.
00:34:27There's very little logic embedded within it whatsoever.
00:34:31So it turns out that there are certain triggers that a task can have that lead us to a greater
00:34:40amount of aversion, which leads to procrastination.
00:34:43So those are whether something is boring, the more boring something is, the less we want
00:34:48to do it.
00:34:50Frustration is another one.
00:34:51So the process of doing something is very frustrating, unpleasantness, right, it's just something
00:34:57is just not pleasant to do.
00:35:00When something's far away in the future, right, the further away something is, the less we
00:35:06desire to do it because we can justify to ourselves, we don't feel, you know, the impending deadline
00:35:13of having to do it.
00:35:15When something is unstructured as well, that's another trigger of procrastination.
00:35:20And the interesting thing about that is, that one kind of frustrates me because, you know,
00:35:25you can structure things, you know, if you feel aversion for that reason, you know, if
00:35:30you don't want to go to the gym because you have no workout plan or something, that is
00:35:35very solvable, right?
00:35:36The other ones are kind of uglier, they're messier.
00:35:39Take me through the list from the top again, yes, so boring, frustrating, unpleasant, far
00:35:45away in the future, unstructured, and the final one is meaningless.
00:35:50So it's not aligned with our values, which we've covered.
00:35:53Okay, what are the easiest solutions for people?
00:36:01Some of those feel a little redundant, like boring, frustrating, meaningless, they feel
00:36:09I'm aware we're playing semantic games here, but they seem a little similar.
00:36:12What's the 80/20 of people overcoming procrastination?
00:36:18Is something unstructured?
00:36:21Structure it.
00:36:22You know, that's the lowest hanging fruit for procrastination.
00:36:27And usually you'll find when you cross reference, and you're right, there is overlap, you know,
00:36:32there is some debate in the research on whether these are distinct characteristics of tasks.
00:36:37But generally, you know, you can kind of, because you'll find that when something's aversive,
00:36:42it sets off multiple ones, right?
00:36:44You don't want to do your taxes, because they're boring, they're unstructured, they're frustrating,
00:36:48they're unpleasant.
00:36:50And so you procrastinate, maybe they're, you know, you kick them down the street for a later
00:36:55day.
00:36:56But structuring things is some of the lowest hanging fruit you can do for, so how can you
00:37:00add structure to doing your taxes?
00:37:02Can you just hire somebody to do it, right?
00:37:05Doing something is the easiest way to overcoming procrastination on it when it's something
00:37:09that's delegatable.
00:37:12So add structure, and go back to goal editing, right?
00:37:16If you have a goal that's really aversive for you, but it's still on your list, and you really
00:37:22see the tangible payoff of having done it, right?
00:37:26Not of doing it, not the enjoyment of doing it, but the tangible payoff of having done
00:37:30it.
00:37:31Edit the goal so it's more in line with your values, right?
00:37:34Find the goal from that six-pack abs by beach season face goal into that goal of, you know,
00:37:40having a feeling secure in your body that your heart isn't going to attack you in retirement
00:37:45or something, right?
00:37:47Connect with the deeper meaning behind it, and connect with that, you know, your top two
00:37:52values, for example.
00:37:54But also, you know, make it, do what you can to make it an actual enjoyable process for
00:38:01you.
00:38:02And that goes back to the unstructured nature of a goal, where—
00:38:06But also unpleasant, presumably.
00:38:07Yeah, also unpleasant, also boring, you know, frustrating, you know, a few of these different
00:38:13things at once.
00:38:15Can you do it over, I don't know, a fancy latte?
00:38:18Can you do, can you, you know, have a resistance list?
00:38:22This is one of my favorite productivity strategies, where, you know, make a list of everything
00:38:27you're resisting doing, and then a set of rewards that you can treat yourself when you
00:38:32do those things, right?
00:38:35Maybe assign a number of points that you can redeem for those rewards or something.
00:38:39I call them habit points in the book.
00:38:40So, you know, there are ways of making the process more enjoyable, making a game out of
00:38:45something that you don't want to be doing.
00:38:48So upping that enjoyment level, however you, having a, you know, glass of wine or whatever
00:38:54that colorful drink is that you're having, and saving it for that period of time.
00:39:01Habit stacking, right?
00:39:03Where you invest in the habits that you are kind of like guilty pleasures almost on some
00:39:09level.
00:39:11Investing in those when you do the aversive things.
00:39:14But there's so many different, you know, overcoming the resistance level we have to things that
00:39:20we can do.
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00:40:20What about the, I'm thinking about stuff that's just going to be tough, that you're just sort
00:40:31of facing and there's not really anything, the sacrifice reward dynamic, there's no way
00:40:36around this and it's just going to suck.
00:40:39I guess you could try and stack listening to good music that you enjoy at the same time.
00:40:44You could go to the coffee shop to try and make it a little bit easier.
00:40:47I'm just wondering how many times, right, I've got my favorite song on, I've gone to my favorite
00:40:53coffee shop, my latte, and fuck, I opened Instagram.
00:40:56Shit.
00:40:57Whoops.
00:40:58Yeah.
00:40:59Yeah.
00:41:00And so this comes down to often giving yourself no choice but to do something.
00:41:05So Freedom is one of my favorite apps on the computer for this reason.
00:41:12I'm not affiliated, much like you in that drink, I guess should be sponsored by, what's the
00:41:18name of it again?
00:41:20Bloom Pop.
00:41:21Bloom Pop.
00:41:22And Freedom.
00:41:23Freedom is one of my favorite apps.
00:41:25So are you familiar with it?
00:41:26Do you use it?
00:41:27I use Cold Turkey, which I think is something similar.
00:41:32Same difference.
00:41:33Freedom, Cold Turkey.
00:41:34I think Self Control is another one where essentially you disable access to a lot of the things that
00:41:41you find more attractive than the thing that you really ought to be doing, than the thing
00:41:48that you want to be doing over a broader period of time.
00:41:51So personally, whenever I write, I find I gravitate to things that are more interesting than writing.
00:41:57I'll want to check my email one more time.
00:42:00I'll want to fire up social media.
00:42:03I'm not big into social media, but sometimes I'll fire up social media, see what my friends
00:42:08are up to, check the news, you know, whatever it might look like.
00:42:13And so Freedom disables the things that are more attractive on your computer than what
00:42:19you ought to be doing.
00:42:20You can specify a block list ahead of time.
00:42:22So even if you want to access these things, you have to restart your computer if it's in
00:42:28the time period that you specify.
00:42:32Another one of my favorite habits is aversion journaling.
00:42:35So what I'll do is I'll grab my notepad, which is always by my side as I work, and my pilot
00:42:42precise V5 RT pen, which, you know, as long as we're throwing productivity fire out there
00:42:49or whatever, try to cause controversy.
00:42:52This is the best pen available.
00:42:54You can come out.
00:42:55The best pen available?
00:42:56Yeah, it's the best pen available.
00:42:57What makes it the best pen?
00:42:58Oh, have you tried writing with a, what's it called?
00:43:02Pilot precise V5 RT, Chris?
00:43:03No.
00:43:04Tell me about it.
00:43:05What's the experience like?
00:43:07Oh, well, it won't come through in video, right?
00:43:12This is the same as who's your girlfriend in school and it's like, oh, she goes to a different
00:43:16school you wouldn't know.
00:43:18No, no, no, no.
00:43:19I promise.
00:43:20I promise.
00:43:21It costs like $2.
00:43:22People can try for themselves.
00:43:23You'll never go back.
00:43:25My wife and I got in an argument one time because I said the pilot, you know, I know what the
00:43:30best pen is.
00:43:31And she said, no, I know what the best pen is.
00:43:33And we had this argument before sharing what pen we were talking about.
00:43:37Turns out we were both talking about the pilot precise V5 RT.
00:43:40But what I'll do with the pilot precise V5 RT is, rolls right off the tongue, doesn't
00:43:46it?
00:43:47It is, I'll grab the notepad and I'll do some, I call it aversion journaling where when I
00:43:53find that I'm resisting doing something, I'll write down why, you know, and it won't, sometimes
00:44:00it'll be as methodical as going through each of the triggers, you know.
00:44:04Is it boring?
00:44:05Yeah.
00:44:06Is it frustrating?
00:44:07No, but it's really boring.
00:44:08So I'll go through the triggers sometimes.
00:44:10Or it can be more loosey goosey, more casual.
00:44:13You know, I'll just grab the notepad and start writing.
00:44:16Why do I find this thing so ugly?
00:44:19And what can I do about it to counterbalance that ugliness, right?
00:44:24To make it less aversive.
00:44:25And I always leave with some tactical thing that I can do to make it less ugly for myself.
00:44:33And if not that, you know, my relationship with it changes a little bit.
00:44:37I understand what makes it so aversive.
00:44:41And so give yourself a choice to either do some aversion journaling or do the thing.
00:44:47And so eventually the time will, and you'll gravitate to the journaling at first, but you'll
00:44:52end up untangling the knots that you have to doing something and overcome that resistance
00:44:59to doing it.
00:45:00So it's an interesting tactic, but it works almost without fail for me personally.
00:45:06It might, I think it will for readers, listeners too, viewers.
00:45:12What about the difference between ugly goals and attractive goals?
00:45:17Because there's some, again, I'm trying to think about as much objection handling as possible.
00:45:22There are some things that are just funner goals than others.
00:45:27There are some goals that are uglier and some goals that are more attractive.
00:45:30Yeah, it's just every goal is a bit different on that fundamental level.
00:45:37And so, you know, often you'll edit a goal and you'll get it to as good in good as shape
00:45:43as you possibly can.
00:45:45And it's still ugly, it's still fugly in a lot of cases.
00:45:48And so you got no choice at that point to decide is this goal worth pursuing?
00:45:55And sometimes the fact that you have tried to edit a goal extensively and you still find
00:46:03it ugly, sometimes that's a sign that it could be worth dropping when it's just fundamentally
00:46:08not aligned to who you are and what you care about.
00:46:12And then you have the goals on your list that's like, you know, lower my cholesterol or something,
00:46:16which probably few people want to do, but if your cholesterol is high, you should probably
00:46:21do it.
00:46:22And so then you have the goals that you really ought to be achieving.
00:46:27And so the limits test is, you know, is thinking, okay, will I be happy that I did this thing?
00:46:33And what tangible difference will it make to my life?
00:46:37Because I forget who said it, but somebody said, you know, for our days to be different,
00:46:44our life needs to be different.
00:46:45I think, you know, you can kind of transpose those for our life to be different, our days
00:46:50need to be different.
00:46:52What do your goals look like on a tangible daily basis?
00:46:56Because another trap we fall into a lot of times, and I call them sepia tone goals, where
00:47:02we have these beautiful fantasies of just exactly how different our life will be after we integrate
00:47:10a change into our life.
00:47:12The one that comes up for me is waking up at 5.30 every morning.
00:47:17So I love this idea of being an early riser, you know, and I've struggled and I've integrated
00:47:24this goal into my life several times actually, where, you know, I'll wake up at 5.30, I'll
00:47:29do all these things that feel like they should be good in my head, I'll meditate like I usually
00:47:37do when I wake up, I'll go to the gym, I'll read the paper, I was going to say still get
00:47:43the physical paper, but I'm not that old.
00:47:46I read the physical paper, though, that arrives every morning, you know, all these holy things
00:47:51with the morning.
00:47:52But then I realized that I absolutely hate the ritual, right, I have to go to bed in order
00:47:57to get a good enough sleep when people want to hang out, when good hockey games are on,
00:48:02when shit's actually happening that's interesting in my life.
00:48:08And so there's this idea of a change sometimes that is sepia toned that leads to these tangible
00:48:15changes that we don't really actually want.
00:48:19And by the way, for waking up early, if you're a night owl like I am, that actual research
00:48:25on it, I believe by Till Ronenburg, has found that there's no difference in somebody's socioeconomic
00:48:33standing based on their wake up time.
00:48:35So people who wake up at 8 a.m. are just as successful as people who wake up at 5 a.m.,
00:48:41but it's how deliberate, how intentional we are with our time that makes the biggest difference.
00:48:46You know, still wake up at 7.30, 8, read the paper, meditate, just everything is just shifted
00:48:52over.
00:48:53Do you think, how many goals do you think people have that are just kind of socially
00:48:58acceptable cosplays of ambition?
00:49:01So many people love the idea of saying that I have this goal.
00:49:09Maybe the reason that lots of people aren't achieving their goals and their intentions
00:49:12is that if they were to look a little bit more closely, they'd realize that they weren't theirs.
00:49:16They're doing it as this sort of cool, trendy t-shirt that they can wear that when other
00:49:21people ask them what their goals are, they can say, "Oh, I'm doing a keto diet," or "I'm
00:49:26doing meat and fruit at the moment," or "I'm microdosing," you know, but that's not actually
00:49:32what they want.
00:49:33It's what they want other people to hear them saying that they want.
00:49:37Yeah.
00:49:38Yeah.
00:49:39"I'm microdosing meat and fruit," you know, whatever it is.
00:49:42That's such a big part of it.
00:49:44And so, you know, one tactic that I'm a big advocate for is keeping a list of your goals.
00:49:51And I divide mine based on context.
00:49:54So personal and work and inside, I list the goals under the values that they're a part
00:49:59of.
00:50:00And when I started doing this, I did realize that there were a lot of goals on the list,
00:50:04like waking up early is one of them, where I feel it's still interesting, you know, that
00:50:11the guilt that we experience when we don't follow through with the expectations that other
00:50:17people have of us, like waking up early.
00:50:20So I know all the research, and I know what works for me.
00:50:26I know what my biological prime time is, which is when we're wired to perform.
00:50:31I know all these things.
00:50:32I know I have a better life, I enjoy life more, I do better work, I create better things when
00:50:38I wake up later.
00:50:39But still, I feel guilty when I roll out of bed at a later hour than, you know, than whatever
00:50:46I deem justifiable in my head.
00:50:49And so there is this, you know, I love the cosplay of phraseology that you use.
00:50:58And it's interesting because I feel our relationship is different depending on our values in that
00:51:03context where, you know, conformity is one of the fundamental human values.
00:51:09Some people do value conformity.
00:51:11And so if that's you, which is probably unlikely if you're listening to this podcast, but I
00:51:18was hanging out with a couple people last night who's, you know, they identified that as one
00:51:23of their highest values, which I found interesting.
00:51:28But if that's a high value for you, and there's a goal that other people expect you to achieve,
00:51:35what the research shows is you will actually find it meaningful to achieve that thing.
00:51:40Because you're living within the expectations that other people have of you.
00:51:45And if you don't have that value, which it's low for me, it's probably low for you too,
00:51:49knowing you to some extent, you're not going to find much meaning.
00:51:54And, you know, for me, my value of self-direction is so high, the highest by a wide, wide margin.
00:52:01And my value of conformity is so low that if I feel I have to do something, that'll make
00:52:06me not want to do it.
00:52:09It'll make me want to rebel against the expectations other people have of me.
00:52:14But there still is that fundamental guilt.
00:52:16So it really is a, you know, so it's kind of like when you ask somebody how, you know,
00:52:21how's work for you?
00:52:22And they say, oh, I'm so busy.
00:52:23You know, I have so much going on, where the busyness, you know, people overestimate how
00:52:28long they work for, first of all, but second of all, they wear that busyness as almost a
00:52:33badge of honor of, you know, oh, the world needs me so much, you know, and I'm so wanted
00:52:41by the world, so needed by the world, so I'm so busy.
00:52:45We have kind of a similar status projection with our goals sometimes, but, you know, tapping
00:52:50into that, that's what makes tapping into that self-reflective capacity just so much more
00:52:55important.
00:52:56If we never tap into our self-reflective capacity, we'll never truly get what we want.
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00:54:11Yeah, I suppose, look, social pressure is a hell of an improver, it's a hell of an assistance
00:54:22when we want to try and get something done.
00:54:24It's why you train harder when you're in a class than when you're on your own, typically.
00:54:28I guess, how can people make their goals and intentions feel deeper?
00:54:34There's certainly some that resonate with us a lot, and then there's others that don't so
00:54:39much but we wish that they did.
00:54:42Is there something we can do to make goals sort of feel deeper?
00:54:47Yeah, so the values component is one, and that's a big one.
00:54:53And there is, you know, you're touching on the social environments that we're a part of.
00:54:57There are kind of a lot of productivity extremists out there, I call them.
00:55:03People who, you know, they'll say never surround yourself with people who don't support you
00:55:08and your goals.
00:55:09But life is just more complex than that.
00:55:12You know, we have good friends that have bad habits, you know, speaking personally, when
00:55:17I'm around family, a lot of their, I'm not going to call anyone out, but a lot of their
00:55:23habits aren't conducive to, you know, the goals that I have.
00:55:27But still, I'd be cold and heartless to weed them out of my life for, you know, some.
00:55:37But there is kind of positive social contagion that I think we can introduce for a lot of
00:55:43our goals, where if you have a big new goal, a big new habit that you're trying to integrate
00:55:49into your life, you can really reflect, "Okay, how can I actually double down on how much
00:55:54contagion I'm experiencing for this goal?"
00:55:57And so there is that level of deliberateness that we can layer on top of whatever that goal
00:56:02is.
00:56:03Whereas, can I join a running group, you know, if my intention is to, you know, get a certain
00:56:09workout time or a certain run time.
00:56:12If you're joining a knitting group, right, I used to be a bigger knitter than I am right
00:56:17now and I wanted to get more into it because it's a great way to scatter your group.
00:56:21Knitting your group.
00:56:22Yeah, yeah.
00:56:23And so it's all like- Like a meetup for people to knit.
00:56:26Yeah.
00:56:27And there's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in.
00:56:30I'm not a good knitter, you know, by any stretch, but I found it a great way.
00:56:34I love the smirk that you have right now.
00:56:37It's like- I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together, like CrossFit
00:56:42on an evening.
00:56:43Oh, yeah.
00:56:44Cross knit.
00:56:45Yeah.
00:56:46I'm blown away by the fact that there's people getting together.
00:56:47Yeah.
00:56:48Well, I'm no good.
00:56:49Like, I can make dishcloths and stuff, but when I was a part of the knitting group in
00:56:54the city that I used to live in, man, like my level of improvement with that habit was
00:57:01a different curve than it is right now.
00:57:03If anything, it's- I'm kind of letting the habit die, right?
00:57:06There's a knitting store in the city that I used to live in, which hosted this kind of
00:57:10meetup.
00:57:11All older women, some of my favorite people in the world were in that group.
00:57:20And so, you know, having that social contagion because it can really support you in the habits
00:57:25that you want to form.
00:57:27That's one way to make it deeper.
00:57:29Nothing feels deeper in our life than human to human connection.
00:57:35All right.
00:57:36Taking all of this together, what's the structure?
00:57:40Someone is bought into the fact that intentions are important.
00:57:43They realize the procrastination's there.
00:57:45They've got goals.
00:57:46They've got actions.
00:57:47They've got daily purpose, all the rest of the stuff.
00:57:50What's the best way to put this into a format to follow?
00:57:52How should people design better intentions?
00:57:55Yeah, so it's interesting.
00:57:59Something that I really believe now is becoming more intentional is a skill that we can get
00:58:05better at over time.
00:58:06So, you know, if you look at your level of follow through, the book was originally called
00:58:14follow through, but it has a weird connotations in the UK that I was not aware of.
00:58:20You're probably familiar with them, right?
00:58:21Follow through.
00:58:22Yes.
00:58:23Yeah.
00:58:24Yes.
00:58:25People can go on Urban Dictionary in their own time.
00:58:26But if you're looking to increase your level of follow through with your goals, it'll make
00:58:34sense when you look it up.
00:58:36That was like totally out of left field for me having to rename the book because it was
00:58:41such a good encapsulation.
00:58:42It was originally called follow through?
00:58:43Yes, it was.
00:58:44Wow.
00:58:45Well, no, you only need to re-name it in the UK.
00:58:48It would have been fine in the US.
00:58:51Well, yeah, in the US, it would have been fine.
00:58:53The UK publisher really raised it, and marketing is so awkward when you have differently named
00:58:59books.
00:59:00I'm fortunate that only my subtitles have been different across geographies.
00:59:05But realize that increasing your level of follow through is really a skill that you can get
00:59:10better at over time.
00:59:11So maybe you set goals, you set intentions right now.
00:59:15Maybe for a given goal, you follow through with it, let's say the default, right?
00:59:208% of the time, we follow through with our New Year's resolutions.
00:59:24Maybe when you resolve to do something big, you follow through with it 8% of the time.
00:59:28But you can build this skill of intentionality, and you can build these practices of intentionality.
00:59:35There's the obligatory ugly stuff, lowering your cholesterol.
00:59:39You can deploy the procrastination habits on those.
00:59:42So just looking to get started on something, one of my favorite tactics out there is shrinking
00:59:47your resistance level to doing things.
00:59:49So if you're writing a book, for example, and you have freedom on or something cold turkey
00:59:56nut, but you're still resisting it, you can shrink how long you do it for until you overcome
01:00:01that resistance, right?
01:00:02It adds structure.
01:00:03It makes it less boring, less frustrating, all that stuff.
01:00:06So you might think, okay, do I want to write for an hour?
01:00:09No way in hell.
01:00:10What about 45 minutes?
01:00:12No.
01:00:13What about 30?
01:00:14What about 20?
01:00:16I could write for 20.
01:00:19And so you overcome that resistance by shrinking how long you do something for being kinder
01:00:25to yourself in the process.
01:00:26So the procrastination for the obligatory ugly things, the procrastination tactics are
01:00:33very helpful for those.
01:00:35But usually there's more latitude in editing our goals than we believe, right?
01:00:45So maybe there's some project that you don't want to do.
01:00:50One example, maybe you have to write some employee handbook or something.
01:00:55And so on your to-do list, it's write employee handbook, or maybe you're making the list of
01:00:59goals as write employee handbook.
01:01:02And that's aversive, right?
01:01:03It feels like something you have to do, which fits with that value of conformity.
01:01:09But maybe you added it, maybe your biggest value is benevolence, so helping other people.
01:01:13Maybe it's self-direction, so going your own way.
01:01:17So a better goal, a better frame for the goal might be mentor new employees and get creative
01:01:25with the handbook project.
01:01:26So you might actually perform the same set of actions under each goal, but one feels like
01:01:31something you have to do that isn't aligned with what you value.
01:01:34The other feels like something that is actually connected with what truly motivates you on
01:01:40that deep fundamental human level.
01:01:43So know your top values as well.
01:01:45So we mentioned the 12 of them earlier in the podcast.
01:01:49Won't go through them again.
01:01:50We've already talked about them.
01:01:52But what top two are the strongest for you?
01:01:56And how can you align more of your goals to them?
01:01:59The easiest way to tell if something, if a priority, if a goal is aligned with your deepest
01:02:06values is you've done it already, right?
01:02:10Because the best, most aligned goals, they feel effortless.
01:02:13They feel like just an extension of who we are.
01:02:16So okay, that covers procrastination.
01:02:19Let's give it a little system for people.
01:02:21That covers procrastination on the ugly stuff, editing the stuff that can be framed differently,
01:02:27increasing your desire, right?
01:02:29Modifying your social environments.
01:02:31But a big one where you see and you accommodate the different layers of intention in your
01:02:41life is setting intentions across multiple timeframes at once.
01:02:46One of my favorite rules for this is the rule of three, but I'm trying to remember.
01:02:50On one of the past times we were chatting, did I mention the rule of three?
01:02:54Maybe.
01:02:55Give us it again.
01:02:56Okay.
01:02:57So all this is is at the start of every day, I like to start with the goal on a daily basis
01:03:04because then you see kind of where the rubber meets the road and you can begin to form different
01:03:11intentions.
01:03:12So at the start of the day, you fast forward to the end of the day in your head and you
01:03:16ask yourself, what are the three main things I will want to have accomplished by the day's
01:03:22end?
01:03:23That's it.
01:03:24What are the three main things I'll want to have accomplished by the day's end?
01:03:27And because you can only pick three, it forces you to prioritize what's on your plate.
01:03:35You have to choose three things that are important and everything else that isn't.
01:03:40But if you find the rule works every day, you might think, okay, what are three things that
01:03:45I want to accomplish this week, right?
01:03:48Maybe in a work context and a personal context.
01:03:51So that when you set the daily intentions, you can look to the weekly ones and think,
01:03:55okay, how can these contribute to the broader plans that I have?
01:04:01So in this way, your daily intentions begin feeding into your plans.
01:04:06And so when you set your weekly intentions, you can look to your goal list, right?
01:04:11You can think, how much of this stuff do I want to bite off today?
01:04:16And so you begin to develop the different layers of intention that you have in your life.
01:04:22Your daily intentions fit with your weekly intentions, which fit with your plans, your
01:04:28goals, which can fit with your values as you edit them more over time.
01:04:32So this is kind of the skill that we can develop in setting better intentions over the longer
01:04:39arc of time and upping our level of follow-through, the goal kind, as well as our level of accomplishment
01:04:46if that's something that you value.
01:04:51What do you think, I know the book's new, what do you think is something that people are overlooking
01:04:57from this big thesis that you've put together?
01:04:59You've got the obvious things that people are going to zero in on, probably the insights
01:05:05around procrastination and ways to reframe intentions and stuff like that.
01:05:09But is there something, a less sexy but powerful element that you think most people are overlooking?
01:05:17Yeah, I'll share my personal favorite.
01:05:21It is that our values are constructed out of our default intentions.
01:05:31So our default intentions, they form a shape and so you can look at, and the shape is the
01:05:40values that we have.
01:05:41So you can look at all the things you do by default and there's always an underlying motivation
01:05:49behind the things that you do by default, right?
01:05:53You have a default habit of meditating because that allows you to get closer to what you want
01:06:01with self-direction or you feel more secure in your mind, you feel calmer, you have habits
01:06:08to call friends and that might connect with different values of benevolence and serving
01:06:16others.
01:06:17But even the simple things, overeating or something might fit with that biological need for security
01:06:25and not starving.
01:06:27So from the deeply, deeply ingrained to the default intentions that we form.
01:06:33So these form the framework of our values and this might be too in the weeds for an answer
01:06:39to this question that's interesting, but I think this is very underrated where our values
01:06:44are made out of the things that we do by default.
01:06:48And it's for this idea that I think our default intentions aren't, they're not just something
01:06:55to get frustrated by, you know, why do I overeat or why do I do this, why do I do that?
01:07:02There's something on many levels to admire, right?
01:07:07We can observe ourselves acting through pure habit energy and playing with our kids on habit,
01:07:15whatever it might look like.
01:07:17And I think our default habits, sometimes they're worth getting frustrated by and setting a different
01:07:23intention after something we've learned maybe or maybe after tapping into that self-reflective
01:07:27capacity.
01:07:29But I think other times they're worth marveling at, right?
01:07:32We have all of these, frankly, in my opinion, beautiful default intentions that I think make
01:07:40us human, right?
01:07:42Because we're not only ingrained in a certain way to act in a certain way, but we can also
01:07:49admire the person that not only nature has formed, but also that we have formed through
01:07:56the decisions that we've made in the past and that those deliberate intentions that
01:08:01we can layer on top of the defaults of our life.
01:08:04That's only, that's this wonderful way that we can go in a different direction and really
01:08:10guide ourselves and our lives to go in a different way.
01:08:16And goals are a big part of that, but values are a big part of that, priorities, plans and
01:08:20daily intentions.
01:08:21So I just think marveling at our defaults is an underrated idea from the book.
01:08:29Right.
01:08:30Yeah.
01:08:31Chris Bailey, ladies and gentlemen, why should people go to check out everything that you
01:08:34got going on?
01:08:35Oh, oh yeah.
01:08:36Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the pod again.
01:08:39Intentional How to Finish What You Start is the name of the book.
01:08:42If you feel inclined to check it out, there's an audio book too, if that's your style.
01:08:47ChrisBailey.com, that's where my news letter is and then all the good stuff that you can
01:08:52find in the, I don't know what you want to call it, the Chris Bailey verse, whatever.
01:08:57Yeah.
01:08:58Thanks for having me on again.
01:08:59I got you, man.
01:09:00I appreciate you.
01:09:01I like your work.
01:09:02Keep on doing it.
01:09:03Oh, thanks buddy.
01:09:04Great to chat with you always.
01:09:06Congratulations.
01:09:07You made it to the end of an episode.
01:09:09Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet.
01:09:13Here's another one that you should watch.
01:09:16Go on.

Key Takeaway

Achieving goals is not just about willpower but about aligning the 'Intention Stack' so that daily actions are rooted in deep fundamental values while using tactical tools to manage emotional aversion.

Highlights

The Intention Stack: A hierarchical model ranging from high-level values and priorities down to mid-term goals, weekly plans, and daily present intentions.

The 12 Fundamental Values: Based on Shalom Schwartz's research, these deep motivations like self-direction, benevolence, and security dictate which goals feel effortless versus those that feel like a chore.

Goals as Predictions: Shifting the perspective of a goal from a rigid expectation to a 'prediction in disguise' allows for greater flexibility and less disappointment when life inevitably changes.

The Science of Procrastination: Understanding that procrastination is a visceral emotional reaction triggered by tasks that are boring, frustrating, unpleasant, unstructured, far away, or meaningless.

Aversion Journaling: A tactical productivity method where writing down the specific reasons for resisting a task helps untangle emotional knots and find a path forward.

Social Contagion: How the environments and people we surround ourselves with act as a 'positive contagion' that can either accelerate or hinder our ability to follow through on intentions.

Timeline

The Graveyard of Forgotten Goals

Chris Bailey opens the discussion by explaining why even productivity experts struggle with certain goals, leading to what he calls a 'graveyard of forgotten goals.' He shares personal anecdotes about unused exercise equipment to illustrate the gap between wanting a result and following through on the process. To solve this, he researched academic literature and consulted Buddhist monks to understand the intersection of intentionality and goal attainment. This section introduces the 'web of factors' that influence our success, including procrastination, values, and social influences. The core mission is to untangle why some objectives fire us up while others are repeatedly kicked down the street.

The Science of the 12 Fundamental Values

The conversation shifts to the scientific foundation of values, specifically referencing the work of Shalom Schwartz and his identified 12 fundamental human motivations. Bailey argues that values are not 'fluffy' corporate buzzwords but are deep-seated drivers like self-direction, achievement, hedonism, and security. He explains that every individual is a unique combination of these 12 nodes, which explains why a goal motivated by 'face' (appearance) might fail for someone who actually values 'security' (longevity). Understanding these values is crucial because they represent what we intend to 'be' throughout our lives. This section emphasizes that high-value alignment is the secret to making a goal feel effortless rather than painful.

Mapping the Intention Stack

Bailey introduces a visual and conceptual model called the 'Intention Stack,' which is shaped like a funnel or pyramid. At the top are long-term values, which filter down into priorities, then mid-term goals, then weekly plans, and finally daily 'present intentions' like tying your shoelaces. He explains that true 'S-tier' productivity occurs when there is a clear line of alignment from the bottom of the stack to the top. Using a fitness example, he describes how a man might value 'security' while a woman might value 'pleasure' in the same activity. When your daily 'to-do' list aligns with your top values, you gain a massive motivational headwind that sustains effort over time.

Goals as Predictions and the Trap of Expectations

The speaker challenges the traditional view of goals by reframing them as 'predictions in disguise' rather than fixed expectations. He argues that because we are terrible at predicting the future—such as a sick child or a flooded basement—rigid goals often lead to inevitable disappointment. By holding goals more loosely and being willing to edit or even drop them, we can stay closer to what we actually want as circumstances change. This section touches on the 92% failure rate of New Year's resolutions, which often stem from 'sepia-toned' fantasies rather than realistic planning. The takeaway is that intentionality requires the flexibility to revise your path as you gather more information about your reality.

Default vs. Deliberate Intentions

The discussion explores the difference between 'default intentions'—autopilot habits like checking your phone upon waking—and 'deliberate intentions' that require self-reflection. Bailey describes 'moments of awakening' where we snap out of autopilot to decide where we truly want to go. He credits Buddhist monks with the idea of 'habit energy' and discusses how our environment and biology often set our defaults. To move from default to deliberate, he suggests utilizing 'scatter focus' or mind-wandering, which naturally turns toward the future 48% of the time. By creating 'gaps' in the day without digital distractions, we allow our minds to unearth better plans and more meaningful intentions.

The Problem with SMART Goals and Procrastination Triggers

In a controversial turn, Bailey deconstructs 'SMART' goals, arguing that the 'Realistic' criteria often limits human potential and that the acronym lacks academic rigor. Instead, he focuses on the 'aversion component' of tasks, identifying six triggers that lead to procrastination: boring, frustrating, unpleasant, unstructured, far away, or meaningless. He notes that procrastination is a visceral emotional reaction rather than a logical one, meaning logic alone cannot fix it. If a task feels negative, we naturally 'kick it down the street,' regardless of how 'SMART' the goal was written. This section highlights the need to identify which specific trigger is causing the resistance before attempting to solve it.

Tactical Solutions: Aversion Journaling and The Rule of Three

The final section provides concrete tools for overcoming resistance, such as 'Aversion Journaling' and shrinking the 'resistance level' of a task until you can commit to it. Bailey recommends using blocking software like 'Freedom' to remove distractions and 'The Rule of Three' to set daily and weekly intentions that force prioritization. He also emphasizes 'Social Contagion,' suggesting that joining groups like a 'running club' or even a 'knitting group' can provide the social pressure needed to maintain a habit. Finally, he encourages listeners to 'marvel at their defaults' rather than just being frustrated by them, as defaults are the building blocks of our values. The episode concludes with the idea that intentionality is a skill that can be built through these repetitive, value-aligned practices.

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