The 2026 Immortality Protocol - Bryan Johnson (4K)

English
CChris Williamson
Weight Loss/NutritionMental HealthDermatologyEnvironmentComputing/Software

Transcript

00:00:00Sorry to report I have a new boner record.
00:00:03Three hours, forty-nine minutes.
00:00:04The fellowship of the ring is three hours, forty-eight minutes.
00:00:08Is that a good thing?
00:00:12I mean, I guess.
00:00:15From whose perspective?
00:00:16Pick.
00:00:17Yeah, your perspective?
00:00:19Is it good for you?
00:00:20Yeah.
00:00:21I mean, yeah.
00:00:22It's substantially better than an elite eighteen-year-old.
00:00:26What would an elite boner eighteen-year-old be?
00:00:29Two hours and forty-five minutes-ish.
00:00:31What refers to elite?
00:00:32Like vasodilation?
00:00:33Yeah, like take an eighteen-year-old in peak condition.
00:00:38Okay.
00:00:39And let's say, what would their nighttime reactions be?
00:00:41They'd probably hover somewhere around like high to nearly three hours.
00:00:46That'd be elite level.
00:00:47And so it just crushes that level.
00:00:49So yeah, I mean from a pure biological capacity, yeah, it's pretty good.
00:00:55Okay.
00:00:56What were you doing with it?
00:00:58Three hours and forty-nine minutes.
00:01:00So this is, it's kind of like it's news to people as I've been sharing this, that I mean
00:01:05people, men are generally familiar with the idea that when you are twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
00:01:10you start having boners, and they happen a lot.
00:01:13You know, like in class, you don't even ask for it.
00:01:17Gust of wind.
00:01:18Yeah, gust of wind.
00:01:19Literally anything, and you can't do anything about it.
00:01:21Like, do you remember, like I would walk in between classes and it's like, you got a boner.
00:01:25Where's it going to go?
00:01:26Where's it going to go?
00:01:27Tuck it into the waistband.
00:01:28And then you pull it up.
00:01:29You exactly put a little book cover in front of it, but like, you can't control it.
00:01:32You can't really stop it.
00:01:34And then as you age, those things naturally go down.
00:01:36So people kind of forget about it as a phenomenon.
00:01:38But men and women have arousal cycles every night, three to five erections every night.
00:01:43Men get erect.
00:01:44Women have their clitoris engorged.
00:01:45And so it's this natural process.
00:01:47The body says, like, I want to keep my sexual function alive and vibrant, and I pulse it
00:01:51every night.
00:01:52So it depends upon your quality of sleep, your metabolic health, your cardiovascular health,
00:01:59your physiological health, and your hormone health.
00:02:01And so if those things are not in place, it doesn't happen.
00:02:05And so if someone's bragging about four hours of sleep at night and like, they feel fine,
00:02:09they're doing great, they have no boners.
00:02:11And so this is…
00:02:13You might have survived with the sleep, but your erection wasn't there.
00:02:15This is why I started talking about these things.
00:02:17We were like measuring a whole bunch of stuff, but I was really, right now, sleep deprivation
00:02:22is high status, right?
00:02:24If you can basically flex and say, I only sleep four hours a night.
00:02:27I'm amazing.
00:02:28I work 18 hours a day.
00:02:29People are like, oh my God, what an amazing person.
00:02:32We admire you so much.
00:02:34And so it has this really weird high status.
00:02:37So this frame of the boners makes sleep deprivation low status, right?
00:02:42It's like, sure, you can brag about that thing, but also your body has shut down its sexual
00:02:49function and you can no longer get boners.
00:02:52And so it's really like, that was one angle.
00:02:53The other one is like the erections really are one of the most representative biomarkers
00:02:59of overall health that you can have big muscles and you can have great skin, but if your boners
00:03:04are not there, then you know, it's not, your body's not in good shape.
00:03:08Are you saying that nighttime erections are like the weather vane or the canary in the
00:03:13coal mine that's an aggregate of a ton of other shit that's going on?
00:03:17Exactly right.
00:03:18Yeah.
00:03:19It basically is a representative marker and you can't do anything about it.
00:03:20You can't, you can't go to the gym and like work out your boners, right?
00:03:23You can't pump iron.
00:03:25You go to sleep, it either happens or it doesn't, you have no control over it.
00:03:28So it's this really great marker.
00:03:29But what you mean is you have no control over making it happen at the time, but you do have
00:03:35control over your health, which is going to be indicative of whether or not that does happen
00:03:39in future.
00:03:40You could go to the gym and do a ton of zone two, which I imagine improves cardiovascular
00:03:43health and then make us more boners.
00:03:46Exactly right.
00:03:47Yeah.
00:03:48And then you go down and you close your eyes, it's just like, you say a prayer, it's like,
00:03:51I hope they happen.
00:03:52You can think of Lord of rings all of you want, but it's not going to happen.
00:03:55It's not going to happen.
00:03:56The company that does this, that makes this device, they've got a 20,000 nights dataset
00:04:04and my scores just like trounce everybody in the dataset.
00:04:08Okay.
00:04:09And so we've worked very hard.
00:04:10Is that the thing you're most proud of?
00:04:11You know, it really is.
00:04:12I know it's like a, in our society, people hear that and they blush like, oh my God, that's
00:04:17so, you know, like, why are you talking about that?
00:04:19But like, it's like a biological function.
00:04:22Everybody has them, like we as a species, our primary biological objective is to reproduce.
00:04:27It's like, it's on point with what our DNA is meant to do.
00:04:32And it also is like the most counter culture thing you can be doing because we have this
00:04:38culture that has high status relative to sleep deprivation and having a shitty lifestyle,
00:04:43drinking a lot, um, doing addictive things, nicotine, vaping.
00:04:48So it really is like counter to all those things to trying to say, those are actually
00:04:53low status.
00:04:54This is high status.
00:04:55Let's try to change the moral narrative on like, what do you aspire to and what really
00:04:58is a flex?
00:05:00Great point.
00:05:01Um, it's a weird, trades like that.
00:05:04I think most people understand, uh, if you're smoking, particularly cigarettes, uh, if you're
00:05:09drinking very regularly, uh, if you were overweight.
00:05:13Yeah.
00:05:14These are, um, there are visual markers right now that also suggest you're probably going
00:05:22to be pretty fucked down the line.
00:05:23Yeah.
00:05:24Sleep deprivation is one of these weird inversions of that, where you're rewarded for the sleep
00:05:29deprivation in the moment and the costs are pushed further down the line.
00:05:33Uh, I guess it would be like, um, a birth rate decline.
00:05:37Like you don't see it because the population can be getting bigger even while the birth
00:05:41rate is getting smaller because people live longer.
00:05:43And then this thing drops off a cliff or a climate change, you can continue to do it and
00:05:49continue to do it and continue to do it until you reach some point where you can no longer
00:05:52handle it.
00:05:53It's like going bankrupt gradually and then suddenly suddenly.
00:05:55Yeah.
00:05:56And you're, you're right to call out the fact that there's this sort of pedestalization of
00:06:00it.
00:06:01I think about, um, especially watching you, who is now the tip of the spear of sort of
00:06:04like, you're the canonical example in basically no time at all.
00:06:08You know, it would have been back in the day, like a Ben Greenfield and then it would have
00:06:11been a Tierra Huberman and I guess these guys all have their own pockets, right?
00:06:17Your like hard longevity now moving into culture with like, um, limited balance on, I'm just
00:06:25doing what it takes to be as healthy as possible.
00:06:27Yeah.
00:06:28Um, anyway, everyone's got their own little pockets.
00:06:30You've become the canonical example.
00:06:32What I've seen is this sort of, the spiral is getting tighter and tighter and tighter
00:06:37of movement, counter movement, counter, counter movement, counter, counter, counter, so, um,
00:06:45we don't know that sleep's important.
00:06:47Matthew Walker comes out and says, you should watch how much you sleep.
00:06:50That was the first time I ever learned about it.
00:06:52Right.
00:06:53And I think we'd be right to say he was close to the sort of front modern push of that.
00:06:57Then that lasts for a good while.
00:06:59And we get back to, well, you know, like the Cussel and Grime culture can come back in and
00:07:04take over and then you get back to, no, this is really, really, really fucking important
00:07:08and it'll improve your performance right now.
00:07:10And now we've already gone back to like the next iteration of the hustle and grind culture,
00:07:14which is much more of a pushback against over-optimization.
00:07:18So there was, this is important.
00:07:20Fuck off.
00:07:21No, it's not hustle and grind.
00:07:23You will perform better if you do sleep well.
00:07:25And also you should consider your sleep, which is an elevated version of the first one.
00:07:30Fuck off.
00:07:31You're over-optimizing.
00:07:32Like we can just do it ourselves.
00:07:33Do you know what I mean?
00:07:34Like this ping pong that gets tighter and tighter and tighter.
00:07:37Yeah.
00:07:38It's like also, I mean, I'm waging a medic warfare, right?
00:07:41And so like, this is the classical thing that has always been done throughout history is
00:07:46you take a given moral value in society.
00:07:50If you don't like that, that thing has power, you invert it, right?
00:07:54So this is like Christianity would say the meek inherit the earth, right?
00:07:59So this is like a counter to the rich and powerful have the ability to push everyone
00:08:03around and do as they please.
00:08:06And so you can't really combat that.
00:08:08So if you can't compete on strength, you compete on virtue.
00:08:11So you invert that, right?
00:08:13And so this has been done through religions.
00:08:14It's been done through all kinds of cultural norms.
00:08:17And so this is, I'm trying to basically do the same thing to death culture.
00:08:22And so death culture is, you know, we, power, wealth, and status are the primary objectives
00:08:27of our society.
00:08:29We will do anything for power, wealth, and status, including killing ourselves.
00:08:34And killing yourself for power, wealth, and status is actually a virtue, right?
00:08:37Like you're a hero, you're on the hero's journey if you do this thing.
00:08:41And so to combat that, you have to take that, which is high status, and make it low status.
00:08:46And so the way you punch away at that is you do the thing where it's like, if you get four
00:08:50hours of sleep at night, you have no boners, right?
00:08:52If you don't have a boner, are you a man, right?
00:08:55And the same thing is true for women, you know, like same cycle.
00:08:57Then you could also say, you know, if you're not well rested, if you don't have good nourishment,
00:09:01if you're not exercising, you have functional IQ, 10 to 12 points lower.
00:09:06Nearly a full standard deviation.
00:09:08So it's actually making you dumb, right?
00:09:10And they're like, what do people care about more in that high status place than their intellect,
00:09:15right?
00:09:16Their ability to actually...
00:09:17Maybe only after that would be their erections.
00:09:18Yeah, exactly.
00:09:19I mean, it's so primal, it's like, how smart am I, and how sexually formidable am I as a
00:09:28person, right?
00:09:29That's who we are as these animals.
00:09:31And so I'm trying to take those high status things, bump them down to low status, and invert
00:09:35the arc.
00:09:36Because otherwise, when you make these like good natured, like sleep because it's good
00:09:44for you, no one gives a fuck.
00:09:45You have to hit the heart of power, because unless you speak to power walls and status
00:09:49directly, nobody's going to change anything because they're locked in on the goal they've
00:09:53been taught to pursue.
00:09:54Which is like, I care about my status in the tribe, I don't want to be ostracized, I want
00:09:57a high status, I want high respect, I want high power, as much as I can get.
00:10:01Which is... talk to me about power, wealth, and status.
00:10:05Is there a hierarchy to you?
00:10:06Is there one which is more seductive than the rest?
00:10:09Is there a sequence that people seem to move through on that evolution to wipe themselves,
00:10:15rid themselves of the slime?
00:10:16>> Yeah, I mean, you can just jump in between groups and just see it so clean.
00:10:20Like for example, I spent some time in DC recently.
00:10:25They're not after wealth.
00:10:26I mean, you can get wealthy being in DC, but that's not the primary objective.
00:10:29You're really after connections and power and status from that community.
00:10:34Whereas in Silicon Valley, it's really about wealth creation.
00:10:38That's like the ultimate objective.
00:10:40And so different communities have different levers.
00:10:42I'm impartial to whatever they are, like ultimately people are trying to... people playing this
00:10:48game are trying to superimpose their view on the world, right?
00:10:52They're trying to muscle in and reorganize the world to somehow be trained by their mental
00:10:59models of existence.
00:11:00And whether that's done through a product or their philosophy or their presence or their
00:11:04personality, but everyone's trying to wrestle like their memetic essence onto the world.
00:11:10>> What do you make of the Harvard longevity study?
00:11:18I'm sure that you've become familiar with this.
00:11:20The world's longest running study on adult life and happiness, and it does have some sort
00:11:26of longevity life span, health span predictions in there.
00:11:32Given that that's been going already for such a long time and has had a huge data set, right?
00:11:39I think it's like 80,000, maybe even more.
00:11:42What's your perspective on that, given what you're interested in?
00:11:45>> Yeah, I mean, there's probably some truisms on like humans respond favorably to having
00:11:50robust relationships.
00:11:52That's true long ago, it's true now.
00:11:55Humans respond favorably to exercise.
00:11:56There's a lot of truisms, like we know this shit's really the case, but I think it's like
00:12:01what may be interesting about this is that is a good retrospective study.
00:12:06I'm not sure all of it's going to carry over into the future.
00:12:09So in the coming years, if we figure out some of these new therapies to rejuvenate ourselves
00:12:14in ways we couldn't before, it may be an entirely different environment in which we look at long
00:12:19lived species.
00:12:20And it may be less about those things and more about other things.
00:12:23Now, this is not to say that relationships are going away.
00:12:25It's not to say that fundamentals of being active are going away.
00:12:29But I do think we're at a moment in time where if you have that study going on and we were
00:12:33talking in the 1960s, we'd be like, "Yep, good data.
00:12:36Let's carry on."
00:12:37But being in 2025 where AI is now starting to make novel discoveries, I think the landscape's
00:12:42going to be very different.
00:12:44What are the specific differences that are going to have the most lever behind them?
00:12:49There's an open question, like what is AI in our lives?
00:12:52Is AI a relationship or not?
00:12:54Do we have human relationships?
00:12:55What are the contours of those things?
00:12:58What do longevity therapies do for us if we start playing around with gene therapies?
00:13:01What does it also mean?
00:13:02For example, you look at Ozempic, these GLP-1s, you take a shot.
00:13:06It alters your experience with hunger.
00:13:09Like it changes a fundamental part of being human.
00:13:13And so if we have the ability to change something so fundamental to our essence and we get really
00:13:18good at drug design, what else are we going to change?
00:13:20So I'm talking about this on like a 10, 15, 20-year time scale.
00:13:23This is not like next two or three years, but still we are in this open frontier where there
00:13:29may be some things that continue as universalisms that just as a biological species, they're
00:13:35true.
00:13:36It's like a radical change and I'm more interested in like what is going to be different than
00:13:40what has been.
00:13:42Yeah.
00:13:43Morgan Housel's book, Same as Ever, is an interesting one that people try to predict the future.
00:13:48But what is easier is to work out the stuff that's not going to change moving forward because
00:13:53the future is as yet undetermined, but working out what from the past can be predictive.
00:13:57It's quite nice.
00:13:59There is this sense, right?
00:14:01Everybody's had the sense that our generation, we are the one.
00:14:04It's the inflection point, it's the precipice.
00:14:07It's right now, it's always right now.
00:14:09Because it always does feel like that, right?
00:14:10If you look at a hockey curve, that graph at each point, it was the highest, most rapidly
00:14:16ascending, biggest, quickest moving point ever.
00:14:19And then you just pull it along a little bit and then it zooms out and you go, oh, that
00:14:23was nothing.
00:14:24But now, now, and then you zoom out and you go, but now.
00:14:28Sure.
00:14:29Yeah.
00:14:30I just finished 1929 about the stock market crash, also tripping on utopia and also a history
00:14:38of Western thought.
00:14:39I finished those three books last week.
00:14:41And the theme that comes through is that humans replay the same actual play every generation.
00:14:51It's the same cast of characters, it's the same archetypes, it's the same arguments, and
00:14:56they just roll through different ideological spaces, but it's the same dynamics.
00:15:02And so we experienced this moment, like you're saying, we think it's novel and unique and
00:15:06we imagine we're something that's pivotal, but really it's just the same thing.
00:15:11It's really very humbling because then it goes back to how much of your lived experience is
00:15:16NPC and how much is truly novel.
00:15:19And I have to concede probably 99% of my lived experience is NPC, I probably have one shot
00:15:27at a novel thought or it's just the state of play and it's very hard to get outside of
00:15:32that.
00:15:33But once you realize that it's somehow relieving that that's the case, but also challenging.
00:15:37So you have to figure out how do I pull myself out and try to find moments of sobriety to
00:15:41see what this moment is.
00:15:43Yeah.
00:15:44And speaking of the Christian piece, the meek, the sort of humility, you're less special than
00:15:49you think you are.
00:15:51It's grounding in that way.
00:15:52I don't think British people need more of that.
00:15:54Maybe Americans do.
00:15:55God, I love the Brits.
00:15:56I love how honoree they are and brutally honest and acrimonious and I find those personality
00:16:09traits to be so charming.
00:16:11Well, I think everybody misses what they don't have, right?
00:16:16Americans would probably quite like a little bit more piss-taking and being brought back
00:16:21down to earth and British people want a little bit more enthusiasm and encouragement.
00:16:26That's why I came over here and I was like, oh my God, it's like being, you know, taking
00:16:29a drink and not knowing I was thirsty, I was so nourished by this.
00:16:32And then for you, it's like, I've always wanted someone to tell me I'm a prick.
00:16:35Like, you know, finally these people will say it to me straight.
00:16:40I'm interested, you know, sort of relating to the Harvard longevity thing.
00:16:44From the outside, a lot of what you're focused on seems to be kind of the raw physiological,
00:16:51but there's a huge emotional piece to longevity, regardless of how much AI is going to change
00:16:56things.
00:16:57Yeah.
00:16:58And some of that will manifest in like sympathetic stress, chronic stress, blood pressure, sleep,
00:17:05blah, blah, blah.
00:17:07More than that as well is what is your moment to moment experience of life like too.
00:17:12So I'm interested in how you are thinking about the emotional and spiritual piece of
00:17:19longevity and health when you've got all of this focus on the physical piece.
00:17:25So are you, are you, and how are you looking at the, at those two elements?
00:17:29Do you even conceive of them within your map framework?
00:17:32Yeah.
00:17:33I mean, first I don't really feel emotions, so no, just joking.
00:17:36I mean, people that, so the, that's a very common perspective.
00:17:41What people don't realize is that the entirety of my endeavor is, um, is about AI and how
00:17:50we as a human race survive this moment.
00:17:52Like full stop.
00:17:53That is the only reason I'm doing this.
00:17:55Was it like that when you first started?
00:17:57Yes.
00:17:58Really?
00:17:59So you saw the writing on the wall with regards to AI before normies like me did.
00:18:02In 2016, I, I gave this talk and I was like, look, if we look at this graph, very clear,
00:18:09it's up and to the right.
00:18:11And it's big.
00:18:12What was the graph?
00:18:13AI.
00:18:14Right.
00:18:15Whatever it is, it's going to be big.
00:18:17And so I didn't care to get into prediction game of like what, when it's going to arrive
00:18:21and what it's going to be and all that, just that this is a moment.
00:18:24And I was trying to poke around, like given this, uh, it, it really does feel like this
00:18:31is like very much like a feeling to intuition.
00:18:33It feels big and it feels consequential.
00:18:36And it feels like we probably want to be sober to get this thing right.
00:18:40And so what I've been trying to do more than anything is to say, we need a new moral philosophy
00:18:47that enables us to survive this moment.
00:18:49That basically the philosophy we have now that drives everything is, is one built on death.
00:18:55We are inherently a die species.
00:18:57We seek death for the glory of immortality through our various games.
00:19:02And the new moral philosophy I'm trying to create is don't die.
00:19:04That is like when you give birth to superintelligence, existence itself is the highest virtue.
00:19:10And so the back to this book of the history of Western thought, Plato, Aristotle, uh, medieval
00:19:15uh, Christianity, medieval times, Renaissance, enlightenment, modern day scientific era, like
00:19:20big chunks of time for these big ideologies.
00:19:23They're due for a brand new moral philosophy and it will be induced by AI.
00:19:29And so it, the opening is right now, and it's not just like some small tweak.
00:19:35It's a really big opening and that's what I'm really angling for.
00:19:39And so health is a vector to basically talk about it, to say like, here's how you understand
00:19:43philosophy through these very practical actions, but that's really what I'm trying to do.
00:19:48And so above all, it's a health is a, is a language to communicate a new moral philosophy
00:19:54on what we do as a species in this moment.
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00:20:50That's livemomentous.com/modernwisdom.
00:20:54Yeah, I've got a miniature essay from you.
00:21:05People confused by me and my intentions.
00:21:07I'm called a narcissist, tech bro, vampire, grifter, and health freak.
00:21:11Let me be clear about what I'm doing.
00:21:12My goal is to build the world's next major moral framework and ideology that bridges human
00:21:17and machine biology and intelligence, the ancient and the emergent, the coming psychosis real
00:21:23possibility in the coming years is that society becomes dangerously psychotic.
00:21:27Yes, we are already psychotic, addicted, fragmented, and self-destructive, but I mean clinically
00:21:32psychotic and on a civilizational scale, we are already showing precursor symptoms, record
00:21:37antidepressant use, rising suicide rates, rampant addiction, and global increases in loneliness
00:21:42and anxiety disorders.
00:21:43These are all biomarkers of a species whose cognitive environment has outpaced its biology.
00:21:49Human cognition evolved under conditions of slow change.
00:21:52Our nervous systems and social architectures were shaped for a world that changed near imperceptibly
00:21:57over millennia.
00:21:58When things change faster than our native capacity, we lose coherence.
00:22:01The hippocampus binds the present to memory and the prefrontal cortex constructs a coherent
00:22:06future.
00:22:07Does that mean?
00:22:09Yeah.
00:22:11It means that we are going to struggle to keep up and it's going to be so unnerving to us
00:22:19that things might get chaotic and psychotic and it might just have the bottom drop out.
00:22:27For example, when I was reading this book, 1929, about the stock market crash, the focus
00:22:34was financial gain.
00:22:35Invest in the stock market, get credit to invest more, leverage yourself up.
00:22:40And then when that burst, it created all kinds of destruction in the economy and it took us
00:22:44a long time to recover from that.
00:22:46I think the equivalent right now would be hope, that you have hope for the future.
00:22:52You have imaginations of what you want to be and become, what you want to achieve.
00:22:56Everyone has that.
00:22:57And as society progresses, when AI starts doing various things, it's not that they're bad.
00:23:02It's just that change happens and that creates uncertainty for humans.
00:23:07What am I going to do?
00:23:08Who am I?
00:23:09What's my identity?
00:23:10And all these basic questions, if we can't answer those as fast as people feel insecure
00:23:14about it, then you kind of teeter on the psychosis where like, can you keep your shit together?
00:23:20And so people focus a lot on AI.
00:23:23Is AI a threat?
00:23:24Should we pause it?
00:23:25All these different questions.
00:23:27There's an equal and opposite concern of what happens to human society when all this change
00:23:33is happening so quickly and we can't respond fast enough.
00:23:38Is the bottom falling out the real risk of, you know, then humans do human stuff, right?
00:23:44What's the bottom falling out in this scenario?
00:23:47It's the sturdiness of law and order, of hope that my son, my 20-year-old son, he can go
00:23:55to school.
00:23:56He can get a degree.
00:23:58He can get a job.
00:23:59He can make money.
00:24:00He can find his own apartment.
00:24:01He can get married.
00:24:02You know, if he wants to have kids, like the natural life progression, if he can't quite
00:24:07see that structure anymore, who is he?
00:24:09Or you take like my dad who's like, now he's already 70s.
00:24:12He's on the other side.
00:24:13He's in the legal profession.
00:24:15The tools are getting so good, like he just can't hang.
00:24:17Like it's hard for him to hang.
00:24:20And he's like, what do I do?
00:24:21Like I'm now out of the game and I don't feel any worse.
00:24:24Like I don't have any identities.
00:24:25He's really, really struggling.
00:24:26And so you take any person at any stage in their life, you've got really serious existential
00:24:30challenges.
00:24:31And this is not guaranteed.
00:24:32It's just as like a thought experiment of like, what could happen?
00:24:36And so what don't die could be is like this sturdiness beneath us to say it's okay.
00:24:43Like our identities are not tied up in our profession.
00:24:46They're not tied up in our status in the community.
00:24:49It's like actually tied up by this virtue of existence that we're going to fight this new
00:24:54game as a species that don't die.
00:24:56And so it's trying to create sturdiness of identity, sturdiness of community, sturdiness
00:25:00of like, we've got this.
00:25:01We have a purpose.
00:25:02We have a mission.
00:25:03We're here for a reason.
00:25:04Like if the mission of being alive is simply mortality, does that not drop down much of
00:25:11the complexity that people find beauty in?
00:25:13It's like simply being alive.
00:25:15Like there's two parts to this that I see in my mind.
00:25:18One is one, which is very whole.
00:25:20It's about enoughness.
00:25:21It's about being okay as you are.
00:25:24But that's not how humans are wired.
00:25:26You know, there's like power, status, money, like we are going to try.
00:25:33And even if it's just, I play pickleball on a week weekend with my friends, I want to become
00:25:37better at pickleball next week.
00:25:38If I'm not better at pickleball, there is this sense of lack that comes through.
00:25:42But on one side there is sort of enoughness.
00:25:46But when you get down to a more sort of raw objective ledger, like your job is to be alive
00:25:54tomorrow.
00:25:55It's like, fucking hell, really?
00:25:58Like maybe if we were in a time of war or there was a lot of pressure or there's a pandemic,
00:26:03ooh, that'll imbue me because there's resistance, but like, really?
00:26:07Like the peak of my contribution is to not expire by tomorrow permanently until it does
00:26:14happen.
00:26:15Do you understand what I mean?
00:26:16I do.
00:26:17How inspiring is that as a vision versus...
00:26:18Yeah.
00:26:19I mean, so to make a parallel example, think of capitalism as an objective function.
00:26:24So you say making money is your goal, right?
00:26:27When you wake up, that's what you do.
00:26:29And now you see the entire world is engaged in that goal in some capacity.
00:26:35Everyone.
00:26:36Don't die is a similar game where you say our goal as a species is to end death, not just
00:26:43for ourselves, for us collectively and the planet.
00:26:46And so you're basically taking on the biggest challenge you could ever take on in this part
00:26:51of the universe.
00:26:52You're trying to solve for entropy.
00:26:53Like, let's just like list out a few things we could work on.
00:26:57How would you go about building a global biological immune system?
00:27:02So let's say we say a pandemic like COVID is not good for us.
00:27:06Like, we don't want those anymore.
00:27:07We don't want the plague.
00:27:08We don't want somebody in a lab, you know, cooking up smallpox again.
00:27:12Great.
00:27:13So how could we build out a global biological immune system where we have sensors around
00:27:17the world where it automatically detects any kind of pathogen that is threatening to our
00:27:22life?
00:27:23That's a pretty cool scientific project.
00:27:24So let's say we care about the oceans and the ocean health and the coral reef is burning
00:27:28up right now.
00:27:29That's bad for an environment.
00:27:31How do we stop that from happening and rebuild the coral reef?
00:27:33And so you just start like ticking down the projects of how could you as a species solve
00:27:39for entropy, like solve for death?
00:27:41The list is endless.
00:27:43You have more to do than you ever could in capitalism.
00:27:47It's a bigger game than capitalism.
00:27:50Can you flex it in the same way?
00:27:51Sure.
00:27:52I mean, you have the same rules, right?
00:27:53It's like anyone who does something has high status in the community.
00:27:57If I'm making a contribution, like for example, I started to, again, my entire game is to make
00:28:03death related things that are high status, make them low status, right?
00:28:06That's my whole thing.
00:28:07And so in this case, you could start scoring companies that do something that actually kill
00:28:15you, right?
00:28:16So that could be scrolling, endless scroll, inducing you to endless scroll.
00:28:20It could be alcohol.
00:28:21It could be vaping.
00:28:22It could be porn.
00:28:24It could be toxins, like all those things.
00:28:28Companies that introduce that into the world, you would quantify it and they would get a
00:28:32die score.
00:28:33Any fast food company represents death, right?
00:28:38They're actively introducing molecules into people's body that induce death versus more
00:28:43healthy ingredients.
00:28:44So like that's an example where you start assigning a quantitative measure on what an entity,
00:28:49individual or company, is doing into society.
00:28:51Like a carbon offset, but for longevity.
00:28:53Exactly.
00:28:54But it defined it this really granular fashion and you tie, because right now, if you make
00:28:59money and you dirty the world, it doesn't matter, right?
00:29:03If you make money and you poison people, it doesn't matter.
00:29:05In fact, you're kind of a hero.
00:29:06So it's a tie social status with your actual effect on life or death for the species.
00:29:13What have been the biggest changes in your approach or beliefs about health and longevity
00:29:21over the last few years?
00:29:23You came on the show maybe three years ago and then we got to hang out in Roatan a couple
00:29:27of years ago, but lots of research, lots of experimentation, self-experimentation.
00:29:33What have been the biggest pivots?
00:29:35Yeah.
00:29:36I'd say one is do less.
00:29:40Most things in health and wellness and longevity don't work.
00:29:44And so people spend a lot of time doing stuff and I would say save your time and money and
00:29:50don't do a lot of stuff.
00:29:51Do a few things.
00:29:53And then two is the biggest yield is typically doing behavioral change.
00:29:57So like if a person has, everybody has their thing.
00:30:02Let's say somebody's thing is like they love Skittles and they just can't help themselves
00:30:09to have a bag late at night, then that's the biggest longevity therapy for that person is
00:30:16to stop eating the bag of Skittles.
00:30:18And so what a person will typically do is like if they have that, if they're locked in on
00:30:21that battle, they will, to compensate for that, they'll go to a gym, they'll go get red light
00:30:29therapy, they'll do a cold plunge, they'll do all this stuff.
00:30:32That isn't the thing.
00:30:33But yeah, it's basically to compensate for the fact that they feel so powerless to stop
00:30:38the Skittles thing that they'll rather do this.
00:30:41Most people are doing that compensation.
00:30:43Even though those things are good, they're not the higher yield thing.
00:30:46The higher yield thing is to stop the bad behavior, but that's the thing that most people feel
00:30:49very hard.
00:30:50And what they don't realize in doing that is like the reason why that's hard is because
00:30:53they're not sleeping.
00:30:55Not sleeping well just destroys your willpower.
00:30:58And they're not sleeping well because five other preceding things are the case.
00:31:02So I try to help people understand like here's a five step process to nail your sleep.
00:31:08When you nail your sleep, your willpower boosts.
00:31:11When you willpower boost, you can tackle Skittles.
00:31:14That's your therapy.
00:31:15Okay.
00:31:16So it's sleep numero uno?
00:31:17By far.
00:31:18Okay.
00:31:19Give me, after all of the experimentation, what's the 30,000 foot view on how to get perfect
00:31:23sleep?
00:31:24You want to lower your resting heart rate before bed.
00:31:28That's the highest value biomarker you can track on a daily basis.
00:31:32So you'll find that everything that increases your heart rate before bed, besides sex, is
00:31:37bad for you.
00:31:38And everything that lowers your heart rate before bed is good for you.
00:31:40And so for example, food, timing of food is really important.
00:31:43So if your bedtime is 10 p.m., you want to have your final meal of the day at 6 p.m.
00:31:46So four hours.
00:31:47I personally do like 10 to 12 hours because I really like that digestion time.
00:31:51It lowers my heart rate to like 39 to 40 beats per minute.
00:31:54So food, four hours before, 60 minutes before bed, screens off.
00:31:59So that's very hard because we're all addicted to our phones, like hard-cut phones off because
00:32:04you want to avoid scrolling, texting, working.
00:32:06And that's very arousing for the body.
00:32:09Red light, amber light in the house, so whites, blue lights are really bad for melatonin release.
00:32:16You want to have a 60-minute wind-down so when screens are off, you want to use that 60 minutes
00:32:20to just calm yourself down.
00:32:22So this is very hard because we've created these habits where we're glued to our phones
00:32:28and if we're not on our phones, we don't know what to do with ourselves.
00:32:31And so it creates this panic.
00:32:33So the 60-minute time window before bed is really precious in that you just need to kind
00:32:38of be with yourself.
00:32:39Now you can hang out with a friend, a family member, you can go for a walk, your breathwork,
00:32:44meditation, a hobby, puzzle, journal, like whatever.
00:32:47But you just need to learn how to be with yourself without stimulation.
00:32:51And that will naturally allow you to calm yourself down.
00:32:54I did this process where I talked to myself.
00:32:56So I talked to my various Bryans.
00:32:58So sleep Brian comes on duty at 7.30 PM because my bedtime's at 8.30 PM.
00:33:02And then all the Bryans line up and they want to talk to me.
00:33:05How many are there?
00:33:06Oh man, there's probably a dozen.
00:33:07Probably loud.
00:33:08It's like a Bonnie Blue meetup.
00:33:09Okay.
00:33:10Yeah.
00:33:11So the first one's ambitious Brian.
00:33:12Ambitious Brian is by far the loudest.
00:33:14He's always like, he shows up and he's like, "I got a banger idea.
00:33:18Brand new idea.
00:33:19It's fucking amazing."
00:33:20And sleep Brian says, "I love you, ambitious Brian."
00:33:23Right.
00:33:24Doing us a real solid, like doing great out there.
00:33:26Also, we're in sleep mode.
00:33:28So I'm going to write down your idea and tomorrow we'll talk about this.
00:33:31And the next one is anxious Brian.
00:33:33He's like doing all the checks.
00:33:34Like today, did you make any big errors?
00:33:36Did you like, you know, do anything stupid, say anything you regret.
00:33:42And so like doing that internal reconciliation of like, do you have good self-awareness and
00:33:45they all just line up.
00:33:46But if you don't talk to them, then when your head hits a pillow, they show up and they're
00:33:52like, "We're here and we want to talk about our stuff."
00:33:55And then you go to bed.
00:33:56Finally, you wake up at 2 AM and they're like, "We're back."
00:33:58And so you've got to have some kind of reconciliation process to calm those voices.
00:34:02So like those are the big ones, like food, light, wind down routine, screens off, yeah,
00:34:13and then caffeine.
00:34:14So you want to have your final caffeine around noon each day.
00:34:16He has a six hour half-life.
00:34:18Those are the real big ones.
00:34:19So, but what you want is like for a man, you want to be like 50 ish heart rate.
00:34:24Same with the female.
00:34:25If you're in that zone, you're doing pretty well.
00:34:27If you can bump down a bit more, and once you get that nighttime routine knocked down, then
00:34:32you can start exercising very well.
00:34:33Like if you sleep really well, your willpower skyrockets.
00:34:37If you sleep poorly, it like knocks your prefrontal cortex offline.
00:34:40You can't really have much more willpower.
00:34:42So that's like number one.
00:34:44Okay.
00:34:45Lots there.
00:34:46A quick aside.
00:34:47If you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem.
00:34:50They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance.
00:34:53But most people have no idea where those are or what to do if something's off, which is
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00:35:46How do you avoid an optimal routine becoming a fragile superstition?
00:35:52Yeah, people try to, they come with that argument, that's great, like the body loves routine,
00:36:09but the body is built for routine.
00:36:10So for example, if your bedtime is 10 PM, your circadian rhythm is locked in to 10 PM and
00:36:17your body expects sleep to happen at 10 PM.
00:36:19Well, this is what jet lag is.
00:36:21Yes, exactly.
00:36:22And so like you have a garbage truck that rolls through your body at around 10 30 PM and it's
00:36:29there to pick up all the trash.
00:36:31What is that?
00:36:32It's your, basically your cleansing system of like your, your lymphatic system is cleaning
00:36:37all the trash from your body.
00:36:38And if you're not asleep at 10 30 PM and in your deep sleep mode, it's going to, it's going
00:36:42to not come.
00:36:43So you've got trash buildup, like New York, you've got the trash bags all over the place.
00:36:47And so people think if I'm not in bed by 10, I'm going to go to bed at one, that's okay,
00:36:52I'll sleep in tomorrow morning, make up.
00:36:54It doesn't work that way.
00:36:55And so the body has very specific rhythms that it wants to be on.
00:36:59And so when you lock in, it's good.
00:37:01And so when someone makes the argument, like I'm going to give my body some problematic
00:37:04stress, right?
00:37:05I'm going to like push it to one and then I'm going to go back.
00:37:08The body hates it.
00:37:09Like inconsistent sleep is as bad as little sleep.
00:37:12I was going to say, do you, when it comes to prioritization, is duration more important
00:37:17than regularity or are they equal?
00:37:19Regularity by far is the best one.
00:37:22Yeah.
00:37:23More than duration.
00:37:24Oh, so I'm sorry.
00:37:25You said duration.
00:37:26I don't know.
00:37:27Uh, I'm not sure on that one.
00:37:29It's kind of like picking your favorite child.
00:37:31Yeah.
00:37:32Yeah.
00:37:33Because you kind of need both.
00:37:34Yeah.
00:37:35Like the lesson here is, uh, cause these are bad habits people have.
00:37:39You need to be on time.
00:37:40You can't make it up.
00:37:42You can't, uh, skip during the week and then make it up the weekend.
00:37:45It doesn't work that way.
00:37:46So you miss a garbage truck every day.
00:37:49It doesn't come back.
00:37:50Like, sure.
00:37:51Maybe in the weekend, but then you're, you're so off on your circadian rhythm that like now
00:37:55is a garbage truck even in service.
00:37:58Okay.
00:37:59Um, so, uh, I understand what you mean with regards to the timing, but the 60 minute window,
00:38:08what if you don't get it?
00:38:09What if this you're out at dinner, you're doing something with friends, you're hanging out,
00:38:14you don't get to, you're around some bright light.
00:38:16I've got a great, a great story from a friend when he was in his hyper, hyper optimizer zone,
00:38:21which everybody goes through where it's like the stress of trying to be perfect kills you
00:38:25more quickly than your imperfections do.
00:38:28And uh, he had this 60 minute wind down routine, which was blue light blockers on and the mouth
00:38:35tape and the nose strip and the magnesium by glycinate and everything else.
00:38:40And he'd been sort of winding down for 60 minutes and his girlfriend at the time had been downstairs
00:38:44and he was brushing his teeth in the dark so that he wouldn't have any light on.
00:38:49And she just comes like tinkering in, hits the light in the bathroom, like the lights
00:38:52come on.
00:38:53He's like, ah, he's blinded.
00:38:54He hasn't looked at light for an hour, goes to bed and he's raging.
00:38:57He's like, ah, here's my entire routine has been messed up and I laid there sort of staring
00:39:01at the ceiling, doesn't sleep.
00:39:02And she drops off within five minutes having just come in from like, you know, scrolling
00:39:07TikTok or whatever.
00:39:08Yeah.
00:39:09So the example is about the fragility of reliance on that and the fear that without it, what
00:39:17does that create?
00:39:18Oh, I mean, how am I going to be able to write my book today?
00:39:22I didn't get my, you know, like, as you said, like what were the stupid things that I said
00:39:26today?
00:39:27That's anxious, Brian.
00:39:28But another type of anxiety is, oh, I didn't get my routine done, therefore I can't sleep,
00:39:33which becomes self-fulfilling.
00:39:34Sleep's one of the very few things that trying harder at it makes it worse.
00:39:38Yeah.
00:39:39I mean, people can find their happy balance.
00:39:42I think if you look at the various archetypes of people, some people love that kind of regimen.
00:39:49They love to be regimented.
00:39:52They like structure.
00:39:53They like process, procedure, order, and that's just their personality type.
00:39:57Other people like the girlfriend in the story, she's not.
00:40:00And so I think the thing here is for people to recognize their kind of archetype of where
00:40:06they naturally gravitate to where they feel good about themselves.
00:40:09If you're not naturally orderly and structured, like don't be that, right?
00:40:12If you're, so it's just like, find your gem, but understand there are principles at play,
00:40:18which you can't just override, right?
00:40:20Regardless of whether you like structure or don't, like if you have a three hour swing
00:40:24between bedtimes across a week, yeah, your body doesn't work in that way.
00:40:31Okay.
00:40:32What are, what are the things that people focus on for sleep that don't move the needle?
00:40:38I, I really, uh, I guess I take 300 MCGs of magnesium, of melatonin, just like, so a third
00:40:48of a gram, a microgram, milligram.
00:40:51Yes.
00:40:52Okay.
00:40:53Yeah.
00:40:54Yeah.
00:40:55Yeah.
00:40:56Yeah.
00:40:57Because people, people fucking way, way, way overcooked.
00:40:58Like one milligram, five milligrams, like.
00:40:59There's 30 and 50 milligrams.
00:41:00Yeah, exactly.
00:41:01I do a very tiny dose of melatonin.
00:41:02Uh, it's to offset the calcification that happens in my pineal gland.
00:41:05Like as you age, your pineal gland calcifies, you produce less melatonin.
00:41:08So it's like a little offset, teeny bit.
00:41:10So in 10 years time, maybe you'll take 500 micrograms.
00:41:13Yeah, exactly.
00:41:14And so it's, it's a very small touch, but otherwise I don't take anything for sleep.
00:41:17Okay.
00:41:18And so I'd so much rather build habits.
00:41:20And this is the same thing, like Americans, just like we are, we take more antidepressants
00:41:25than any country in the world.
00:41:26Quick fix.
00:41:27We love pills.
00:41:28Like we love pills to solve fundamental problems.
00:41:30And habits- Gummy or a powder.
00:41:32Yeah.
00:41:33Habits are the strongest ones.
00:41:34Like that's why I focus on just build your sturdy habits.
00:41:38In the archetype you are, that's the tried and true thing that delivers the best.
00:41:42Now, if you want to try to amplify with whatever you take, cool.
00:41:44But generally speaking, um, it's really about habits.
00:41:48Okay.
00:41:49Give me your formula for behavior change.
00:41:51Behavior change is so important.
00:41:52Let's assume someone's taken the first red pill, which is sleep.
00:41:58And I now have access to, uh, the amount of willpower that I'm supposed to have as opposed
00:42:03to however much is diminished in my shit sleep from the night before.
00:42:07Yeah.
00:42:08I've arrived.
00:42:09He'd look at, behold my litany of shitty habits.
00:42:13Exactly.
00:42:14I'm like a guy in a side, side alley going, would you care to peruse my words of shitty
00:42:20habits?
00:42:21Um, someone has a shitty habit.
00:42:24Maybe it's the Skittles.
00:42:25Maybe it's whatever, pick whichever you think is a good one.
00:42:29Talk me through your James clear approach to the Brian Johnson's James clear.
00:42:34Okay.
00:42:35So I actually, I I'll show you mine, but I wonder if this resonates or not with people,
00:42:38but I had this issue where at 7 PM I would overeat every night.
00:42:43Yeah.
00:42:44Evening eating for me is the only time I didn't know.
00:42:46No one ever overeats.
00:42:47And if the breakfast, Oh yeah, it was just 9 AM and I gorged myself on Snickers.
00:42:52Yeah, exactly.
00:42:53Yeah.
00:42:54Like maybe I can, uh, I'll weekend brunch where you order your pancakes and you're like, Oh
00:42:56my God.
00:42:57Yeah.
00:42:58You're going to do that again.
00:42:59Yeah.
00:43:00Exactly.
00:43:01Awful.
00:43:02Yeah.
00:43:03So like your willpower goes down all day.
00:43:04It makes sense.
00:43:05Like 7 PM, like you have stress, you're worn down.
00:43:06Like you just want to like, whatever.
00:43:07So that was my issue.
00:43:08I overate at 7 PM.
00:43:09And so I did it every day for years and every night was the same battle, right?
00:43:12Like I'm not going to do it.
00:43:13I'm not going to do it.
00:43:14I do it.
00:43:15And then like, you know, my, the top button on my pants, I can't be buttoned up.
00:43:19And I'm like, fucking hate myself.
00:43:21Like this is so tight.
00:43:22I'm so uncomfortable.
00:43:23So I tried so many things to stop that and I couldn't.
00:43:26And so the one thing that I did is one day I just kind of said in jest, "Evening Brian,
00:43:33you're fired."
00:43:34Like you, Brian, who occupied me from 5 PM to 10 PM, you're an unreliable thing.
00:43:42Like every day-
00:43:43Steward.
00:43:44Yeah, steward.
00:43:45Like you basically come up with these rationalizations like tonight's the last night, tomorrow morning
00:43:51we're going to exercise really hard.
00:43:52It's one bite.
00:43:53Whatever your specific entry point is, you always convince me to do it.
00:43:58You're a slippery motherfucker.
00:43:59Exactly.
00:44:00And you basically make morning Brian miserable.
00:44:02You make dad Brian less good, less good dad, like ambitious Brian is hurting because of
00:44:07you.
00:44:08And so I said, you're fired.
00:44:09And so that means from 5 PM to 10 PM, you do not have authority to eat food.
00:44:14No matter what, like, I don't care what's happening.
00:44:18You cannot eat food because you're so shifty.
00:44:21And so I just made that rule.
00:44:22And so I gave him a name.
00:44:23I wrote down his arguments.
00:44:24And so he would come into my mind and be like, "Hey, I'm here."
00:44:27And I'm like, "Hey, evening, Brian, like, how you doing, man?"
00:44:31Fuck you.
00:44:32Yeah.
00:44:33And like, "Oh, you're going to use the we're going to work out hard tomorrow morning argument,"
00:44:35or like, "Tonight's the last night.
00:44:36Like, I see you.
00:44:37And I know what that is.
00:44:38And I've done this a hundred times.
00:44:40I've never in my entire life felt satisfied with myself after doing this.
00:44:45Ever.
00:44:46I've never felt proud of myself.
00:44:47I've never felt good."
00:44:48Yeah, you're selling yourself a lie about how you're going to feel after doing this.
00:44:50Exactly.
00:44:51And so, yeah, that was just, it was just a rule.
00:44:53And so I guess the rule is something like none is better than some.
00:44:59That we do like to rationalize that, oh, just like every once in a while is fine, moderation
00:45:05is a principle of life I want to play by.
00:45:08We have all these very clever catchphrases to justify our inability to actually do what
00:45:13we want.
00:45:14And so, yeah, that was a really clean hook for me.
00:45:16That's cool.
00:45:17And the reason that I like it is because of this most recent iteration of the over-optimizing,
00:45:23can we not just fucking like, how lame, how like the stress of trying to be perfect is
00:45:29killing you more quickly than your imperfections.
00:45:33Moderation man.
00:45:34And there is a kernel of truth in it.
00:45:35And this is why like a slower, more gentle approach to, "I see you.
00:45:39I think there's something there.
00:45:41I see you.
00:45:42I think there's something there," is, "Hey man, your focus on these habits is a kind
00:45:50of fragility and it is destroying the enjoyment of life by obsessing over how you live it."
00:45:58Right?
00:45:59So I get the angle on that.
00:46:01The problem is that nobody scrutinizes the just live by vibes man approach with the same
00:46:10level of resolution because by design they're living by fucking vibes, so nothing's being
00:46:15tracked.
00:46:16But you've, I've never even thought of it before, but you've fucking nailed it.
00:46:18Which is the, "I just live by moderation, dude," is not living by moderation.
00:46:25It's living by extremis.
00:46:26Like you end up, the moderation, you put, I always use this example because I like biscuits,
00:46:31cookies.
00:46:32I like biscuits.
00:46:34If you tell me pack of Oreos, there's one outside, you can eat none of them or you can eat all
00:46:38of them.
00:46:39Done.
00:46:40Exactly.
00:46:41Right?
00:46:42But you can eat two of them.
00:46:43Yeah.
00:46:44Exactly.
00:46:45Fucking Superman.
00:46:46Yeah.
00:46:47No, I can't eat two of them.
00:46:48Yeah.
00:46:49No.
00:46:50You give me a star.
00:46:51Maybe, I don't know.
00:46:52Maybe some people aren't like this.
00:46:53Yeah.
00:46:54I'm a eat all of them or none of them kind of guy.
00:46:55Yeah.
00:46:56So you're what on the surface, like first order looks like the very bureaucratic dictatorial
00:47:02Nazi policy.
00:47:03Like how can you do this to yourself?
00:47:04Like, ah, you're not balancing life.
00:47:06Like it would be much better if you just allowed yourself to treat like every so often.
00:47:09It's like, okay, show me how every so often your every so often is.
00:47:13Yeah, exactly.
00:47:14It's not that every so often.
00:47:15Yeah.
00:47:16It's actually most of the time.
00:47:18Yeah.
00:47:19You know, I just like, I'm a bit more flexible with my sleep.
00:47:21You know, sometimes I let myself sleep in.
00:47:23Sometimes I give myself, I go to bed a little bit later.
00:47:26Like it's like, okay, just look at when you're going to bed.
00:47:29It just keeps on shifting later and later and there is no trend over time.
00:47:33It's just what, and sometimes it's getting wider.
00:47:36Um, so yeah, I think I've never thought of it before, but the, um, everything in moderation
00:47:42is not done in moderation.
00:47:43Exactly right.
00:47:44Yeah.
00:47:45So this is like, again, a medic moral philosophy of warfare.
00:47:48So the person who's arguing for moderation is attempting to take, uh, a, a drive towards
00:47:55health and, uh, make that low status and make their moderation high status.
00:48:01So this, if you, if you, if you look at the world through this lens, you realize everybody
00:48:06at all times is trying to take their position and they're like assessing the battlefield
00:48:12and they're saying anything that makes me feel low status, I'm going to invert and make that
00:48:17high status thing low status and my thing high status, because I inherently want to feel superior
00:48:22to people at all times is that then that is like literally everything that's happening
00:48:27at any moment in society, it's just like humans want to feel superior in high status.
00:48:32Okay.
00:48:33Do you know, uh, the inner Citadel idea by Isaiah Berlin?
00:48:37I don't.
00:48:38Allow me to teach you.
00:48:39I think this may be useful to you.
00:48:40Uh, Isaiah Berlin says when the natural road to what human fulfillment is blocked, human
00:48:46beings retreat into themselves, become involved in themselves and try to create inwardly that
00:48:51world, which some evil fate has denied them externally.
00:48:54If you cannot obtain from the world that which you really desire, you must teach yourself
00:48:57not to want it.
00:48:58If you cannot get what you want, you must teach yourself to want what you can get.
00:49:03This is a very frequent form of spiritual retreat in depth into a kind of inner Citadel in which
00:49:08you try to lock yourself up against all the fearful ills of the world.
00:49:12The different way to look at it is if your leg is wounded, you can try to treat the leg.
00:49:16And if you can't, then you cut off the leg and announce that the desire for legs is misguided
00:49:20to just be subdued.
00:49:21That's right.
00:49:22Yep.
00:49:23I mean, that's it.
00:49:24I think that's the exact articulation of what we've been discussing.
00:49:29It's the medic and moral philosophy of warfare to feel superiority because nobody wants to
00:49:33feel inferior.
00:49:34Yeah.
00:49:35It's like we looked at, uh, Adlerian stuff much.
00:49:37Yeah.
00:49:38Yeah.
00:49:39And a lot of that is driven by this.
00:49:40I can't be inferior.
00:49:41Yeah.
00:49:42This is why getting into a relationship with too much of a power imbalance.
00:49:45One person is significantly busier than the other.
00:49:47One person is significantly better looking.
00:49:49The other one person has significantly more attention than the other.
00:49:52The power imbalance is so great that unless the second person is happy to only ever sing
00:49:58harmony and never sing lead and is there like in service and the service becomes their reward.
00:50:04If you have two people, you can't have two people singing lead.
00:50:06Yeah.
00:50:07Like one person has to sing harmony.
00:50:08Yeah.
00:50:09And if you're lead singing and they're lead singing and there's this fucking way ahead
00:50:12or yours is way ahead, there's going to be tension.
00:50:14And I think about, um, I think about those bridges that you see during earthquakes and
00:50:21they sort of do this, they like flex like that.
00:50:25And I think about that kind of visual, it's this sort of flexing intention.
00:50:29It's not even necessarily a pulling apart.
00:50:31It's I'm going this way and you're going that way.
00:50:33Yeah.
00:50:34Yeah.
00:50:35Exactly right.
00:50:36Yeah.
00:50:37I mean, a hundred percent.
00:50:38Like what, what is society?
00:50:39I mean, I guess like there's two macro games happening in society.
00:50:42Like in that tension is, um, what is, what is high status and then within that game of
00:50:49who is high status, right?
00:50:52That's it.
00:50:53And then you've got everyone else playing to try to take the high status, make it low status,
00:50:57but like right now, the highest status game is wealth, right?
00:51:04Capitalism.
00:51:05And this came from Adam Smith.
00:51:06This is what I'm saying.
00:51:07Like when you look...
00:51:08Is the highest status game role wealth?
00:51:10What about, uh, renowned popularity recognition?
00:51:14Because you look at, uh, at somebody who already has lots of wealth.
00:51:19And a lot of the time they continue to pursue status.
00:51:21I spoke about this with Naval and his, I think this is true.
00:51:26Are you interested to get your perspective?
00:51:28Money is evolutionarily novel and yet it's a proxy for status and it gives you things
00:51:32that status can't, but we should have raw status for statuses sake, prestige, dominance, access.
00:51:40It's like a recognition that should be more deeply rooted and therefore less easy to satiate
00:51:47than money.
00:51:48Cause money is more novel and money is not direct access to the thing that you need, right?
00:51:53Money without status can make you live, but status without money can make you fucking miserable
00:51:57and kind of on the street in a way.
00:51:59But it seems like people who get lots of status rarely continue to pursue money.
00:52:06Whereas people who get the fucking infinity money do always continue to pursue status.
00:52:11You've seen asymmetry here?
00:52:12I'm interested with your perspective on money and status.
00:52:14Absolutely right.
00:52:15I think basically, I think that's correct.
00:52:18I think money has more raw power just from a transactional, just raw power, like the ability
00:52:29to do things in the world, like to move the world money in this current context.
00:52:36Now behind that, so again, I can remember two games.
00:52:38One is what is high status and then two is who's winning within status.
00:52:43And so my comment on money is that that is within context of that is high status.
00:52:49But if you look at broader status of what is high status, religion has played status.
00:52:56You look at Christianity where Jesus is like, "Look guys, I've got a new status game for
00:53:00you.
00:53:01And it's not what you're being told.
00:53:03I'm going to tell you a whole new rule set."
00:53:06And so any religion has done that.
00:53:08And so this is the game I'm trying to play.
00:53:10I'm trying to basically say like right now, capitalism is status.
00:53:15Like it is, if we said like, this is the thing, and I'm trying to say, this is the thing that
00:53:20might lead us to make a terrible error in judgment on what we do in this moment.
00:53:27And that the flip is existence itself is high status.
00:53:33Interesting.
00:53:34And never to the exchange of anything else.
00:53:36It never is never worth trading existence for anything else, wealth, power, or status.
00:53:43Existence itself is the highest virtue.
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00:54:45Yeah, I do understand, and I think what I like is that you are not trying to upend the game
00:55:05of status itself.
00:55:07That's locked in.
00:55:08It's like saying, "Well, rather than trying to work out a more efficient rocket to get
00:55:14us off this launch pad, we can just defeat gravity," and you go, "No, there are physics
00:55:19within the system, and one of the physical laws is status."
00:55:22Yeah, so really the master game in society, the ultimate game is determining what is status,
00:55:30what is high status.
00:55:31And then, of course, you have billions and billions of humans who will play within the
00:55:35game.
00:55:36They'll just be like, "Oh, this is the game, the function, and the reward system?
00:55:38I'm playing."
00:55:39They won't think about it.
00:55:40They won't realize that the game's been set up for them.
00:55:43They'll just play it.
00:55:44That's interesting.
00:55:45Yeah, so rather than trying to convince people not to play the game, you just change what
00:55:50the game is pointing at.
00:55:51Exactly.
00:55:52And they'll play it.
00:55:53They'll have the same fundamentals they'll apply to the new game.
00:55:54So when you say existence is the highest virtue, you have the same human behaviors that are
00:55:59stamped out throughout time, same archetypes, same players, same stuff, every single time,
00:56:04just get the game right.
00:56:05And that's what I'm saying.
00:56:06If this moment is so simple, just get the objective function correct.
00:56:11It's like, I don't know, some sort of judo throw that uses your opponent's momentum against
00:56:15them.
00:56:16Yeah, exactly.
00:56:17So to speak.
00:56:18Yeah, that's right.
00:56:19That's right.
00:56:20Okay.
00:56:21Tell me about your sauna experiments.
00:56:22Yeah.
00:56:23I was watching those unfold with intrigue.
00:56:24So we discovered quite a few things that -- I shouldn't say discovered.
00:56:29We found out quite a few things.
00:56:31So one is for those who are new to sauna, dry sauna has the most evidence because you're
00:56:37trying to get your core body temperature up.
00:56:40And so infrared does not get hot enough and wet sauna will basically burn you at the temperatures
00:56:45you need.
00:56:46So dry sauna is the right -- traditional dry sauna.
00:56:49Yep.
00:56:5020 minutes a day at 200 degrees Fahrenheit, 83 -- is that 83 Celsius?
00:56:5493 Celsius.
00:56:55All right.
00:56:56200 Fahrenheit.
00:56:58So three things we found.
00:56:59One is I was in LA during the LA wildfires when like 20,000 -- yeah, that'll beat you
00:57:04up if you go close to them.
00:57:05Yeah, so I was measuring my toxins in my body when -- before the fires happened and then
00:57:10after the fires happened and I was absolutely baked in toxins.
00:57:15So I was in like the 99th percentile, as I'm sure other people in LA were too, of toxins.
00:57:20You could like go down the list and be like, this chemical is used in PVC pipe for housing.
00:57:25This chemical is like a countertop.
00:57:28This chemical is like -- you literally see the burned houses and cars.
00:57:33Breathing in Teflon and whatever else.
00:57:35You could like -- down the list, you could look at the industrial solvent.
00:57:38As a Kia Sorento.
00:57:39Yes, exactly.
00:57:41So my body was full of all these houses and cars that were burnt and the sauna annihilated
00:57:46the toxins.
00:57:47It was remarkable.
00:57:48So that was cool.
00:57:49Two is we have been trying to get my microplastics down because microplastics live in the body
00:57:54and the brain and we were measuring microplastics in my blood and also in my semen.
00:58:00And so microplastics hang out in the testicles and that has all sorts of negative effects
00:58:05on testosterone, on fertility.
00:58:07You just don't want them hanging out there.
00:58:09So I have over a 90% reduction in my blood and my semen of microplastics.
00:58:16And that was a first in world demonstration of -- no one had ever done that before.
00:58:20So because the microplastics test is actually kind of hard to do, right?
00:58:23Exactly.
00:58:24The test is hard and no one had done semen before.
00:58:26No one had repaired blood and semen.
00:58:30Hold, this is fascinating, but you know why kitchen detergents say kills 99.999% of bacteria?
00:58:39Why?
00:58:40It's not because they're unable to kill more bacteria, it's that the testing tolerance only
00:58:44goes down.
00:58:45Yeah, exactly.
00:58:46Then this kind of feels like it's not too dissimilar of the same.
00:58:49So one is we showed that sauna is a really efficacious detox protocol.
00:58:55Number two is we showed -- well, we think sauna was the reason why my microplastics went down
00:59:02so dramatically.
00:59:03We were relatively controlled across everything else.
00:59:06Exactly.
00:59:07It was very controlled.
00:59:08We didn't do any therapy in that time frame that were meaningful.
00:59:11And then three is I had really great changes, improvements in my vascular markers.
00:59:16So it actually improved.
00:59:17Even though I'm in really good health, it still had a measurable increase in my vascular markers.
00:59:22It increased my VEGF.
00:59:24This is like you want VEGF in your body because it helps produce more capillaries and blood
00:59:29vessels.
00:59:30You want a higher level.
00:59:31It increased it by 400%, which was amazing.
00:59:33I had a dramatic drop of PTAL, which is a protein in the brain that leads to Alzheimer's.
00:59:40So that dropped dramatically.
00:59:43We also did a test on looking at when you're in that kind of environment, you want to put
00:59:48ice packs on your testicles because otherwise it annihilates your fertility markers.
00:59:52It'll take down your count, your morphology, all the above.
00:59:56And even men who say like, "I don't care, I'm not trying to have a baby," there's really
00:59:59negative feedback loops.
01:00:00So if you have smashed fertility markers, then it has negative effects on your health overall.
01:00:05So I did three weeks with ice, then I went two weeks without ice.
01:00:11In that two-week window, I got smashed.
01:00:13So my fertility markers went down by 50%.
01:00:16The prices that you pay to uncover this stuff for the rest of us mere mortals.
01:00:20So I went back on ice and I've been back on ice for six weeks now and I got these results
01:00:25on my drive here.
01:00:26Okay, cool.
01:00:27Tell us.
01:00:28Yeah, so I'm going to go by memory.
01:00:30So it's the highest sperm count I've had ever.
01:00:35It's the highest motility count I've ever had.
01:00:37It's the highest morphology I've ever had.
01:00:39So not only did they bounce back, it's the highest I've ever been.
01:00:43And if you look at, these are like off the chart numbers, like six to 10 times the level
01:00:48of normal fertility.
01:00:50So what do you think is going on there?
01:00:51Is that just straight vascular changes?
01:00:53We're not sure.
01:00:54What do you think is going on?
01:00:55Come on, ballpark the mechanism for me, have a play around.
01:00:59Yeah, I mean, I really need a deep dive into this more.
01:01:05Yeah, I don't know.
01:01:07It's a really big jump and I've been doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy.
01:01:12We've been doing the sauna.
01:01:15We haven't done really any other meaningful therapy that could boost it.
01:01:20Okay, so let's go through the protocol for the sauna.
01:01:22You said 200 degrees, 20 minutes dry, the traditional sauna, ice pack on the balls.
01:01:31Does time of day matter?
01:01:36What did you go for as a solution for ice pack on the balls?
01:01:38Yeah, so you can buy these from Amazon, they're like eight bucks, BPA free, no toxins, reusable.
01:01:45So yeah, they're blue, you get a pack of like four and then you want them on the balls in
01:01:53the sauna.
01:01:54So put on cotton underwear and then cotton shorts and then slide them underneath the shorts.
01:01:59In between the two.
01:02:00Exactly.
01:02:01Yeah.
01:02:02And then like, so just have two of them in there.
01:02:03But yeah, if you keep them chilled, like we wonder whether the chilling actually has an
01:02:08improve.
01:02:09Like we can't-
01:02:10That could be so interesting.
01:02:11Yeah.
01:02:12It's got nothing to do with the saunas.
01:02:13Should you put an ice pack on your balls for 20 minutes a day?
01:02:14We know sauna destroys, but we wonder like, is the icing, because we saw-
01:02:18Get out of the sauna, put the ice pack on the balls.
01:02:21Yeah, if you're working now, so we actually were going through another experiment after
01:02:24this completed.
01:02:25I was going to start icing the testicles during the day, like just when I work.
01:02:30Because we saw like a 30% jump in my fertility markers in the first three weeks of doing ice.
01:02:35And we were trying to figure out like, why did the sauna increase it and then the ice
01:02:40just protected the increase?
01:02:42So we're still trying to figure out what the cause is.
01:02:43Some collaboration of the two.
01:02:44Okay.
01:02:45Okay.
01:02:46What else have I got to ask?
01:02:47Are you taking any binders, like a charcoal, a colorless styromine, a NAC flush type scenario,
01:02:56something to capture the heavy metals that are coming out of you?
01:02:58None.
01:02:59Right.
01:03:00No.
01:03:01So it was just two pairs of cotton shorts, an ice pack, and a sauna.
01:03:04And like a cotton towel, wipe yourself off as you're sweating, jump in the shower.
01:03:08Why the wipe yourself off?
01:03:09I'll just, if the toxins are being excreted via sweat, just snag it when it's like hanging
01:03:14out your skin so it doesn't dry.
01:03:18Shower straight after.
01:03:19Yep.
01:03:20That's it.
01:03:21That's the entirety of the protocol.
01:03:22Yep.
01:03:23Cool.
01:03:24I'm going to guess you were doing that seven days.
01:03:25Yeah.
01:03:26Every day.
01:03:27Right.
01:03:28Yeah.
01:03:29I do it after working out.
01:03:30So I go work out for an hour.
01:03:31I immediately jump into the sauna.
01:03:32And so I'm already really warmed up.
01:03:33Yeah.
01:03:34As opposed to spending the first seven minutes getting up to...
01:03:36Exactly.
01:03:37...temperature.
01:03:38When you're talking about Rhonda Patrick, there seems to be some pretty good evidence
01:03:40about, well, you're kind of extending the session's benefits somewhat, so you're stacking a few
01:03:46things together.
01:03:47Exactly right.
01:03:48But I do like the idea of, we were talking about behavior change earlier on, stacking
01:03:53habits.
01:03:54Yes.
01:03:55It's very strong.
01:03:56Exactly.
01:03:57It's like, look, if I'm going to train, and I know that when I get home from training,
01:03:58my training session is an hour, but I'm actually going to book an hour and 40 in, and that gives
01:04:03me 10 minutes to get home.
01:04:05And then I'm going to get in the sauna for 20 minutes, or wherever.
01:04:07I'm going to go to maybe the sauna's in gym or whatever.
01:04:10And then it's going to give me 10 minutes for my shower.
01:04:12And then I'm done.
01:04:13And I've done both of these things, and I've done them in the right order.
01:04:15I've done them together in that format.
01:04:19Anything else on sauna?
01:04:20Anything else?
01:04:21Initially, I did sauna in the morning.
01:04:23So in the first two weeks, it absolutely wrecked my sleep, destroyed it.
01:04:28Not doing it in the morning.
01:04:30Well, I think just doing it, period.
01:04:32It's 200 degrees is a lot.
01:04:34It's really, really warm.
01:04:35Never done sauna before, so I think it was just the adaptation time period.
01:04:39I'm fine now, but just note that there's initially an adaptation time period.
01:04:44And then two is I tried at night, initially it wrecked my sleep.
01:04:48But then I tried it after I had the adaptation period, and it boosted my sleep.
01:04:52So I found that there is some virtue in doing it before bed.
01:04:55So you just have to run the experiment, you have to see for you if it's going to improve
01:04:59sleep or not.
01:05:00Yeah.
01:05:01That also means that you're going to have to be training later in the day, which is not
01:05:03always necessary.
01:05:04Yeah, exactly.
01:05:05Because you don't want to exercise within four hours before bedtime.
01:05:08Yeah.
01:05:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:10Yeah.
01:05:11Yeah.
01:05:12Yeah.
01:05:13Yeah.
01:05:14Yeah.
01:05:15Yeah.
01:05:16Yeah.
01:05:17Yeah.
01:05:18Yeah.
01:05:19Yeah.
01:05:20Yeah.
01:05:21Yeah.
01:05:22Yeah.
01:05:23Yeah.
01:05:24Yeah.
01:05:25Yeah.
01:05:26Yeah.
01:05:27Yeah.
01:05:28Yeah.
01:05:29Exactly.
01:05:30Because you don't want to exercise within four hours before bedtime.
01:05:31Yeah.
01:05:32Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:33Yeah.
01:05:34Yeah.
01:05:35So I'm in the office from Beam Hyperbarics in Austin.
01:05:37If anyone wants to go to a great hyperbarics place, it's fucking sick, you can book it by
01:05:40the hour, fancy is great.
01:05:42And I'm knocking on this tiny little portal out of my submarine.
01:05:47And he comes in and I just showed my phone.
01:05:50I'm like, I couldn't be bothered to use the radio to get outside.
01:05:54I'm like, "Is Brian, Brian messaged?
01:05:56Are we doing this?"
01:05:57And he sort of went.
01:05:58That's so funny.
01:05:59Yeah.
01:06:00Put his thumb up like that.
01:06:01So hyperbaric.
01:06:02I mean, I was-
01:06:03Red pill me.
01:06:04I was, when you messaged me, I was worried about you because a week before somebody had
01:06:10blown up in Arizona.
01:06:13So yeah.
01:06:14What does that look like?
01:06:15Well, so in hyperbaric, the idea is you pressurize.
01:06:19So you're actually, so at atmosphere, at sea level, we're about 15 pounds per square inch
01:06:26of concentration of oxygen.
01:06:29At two atmospheres, you're at 30.
01:06:31So you pressurize.
01:06:33And some hyperbaric chambers, they pressurize, and then they just push 100% oxygen into the
01:06:39chamber.
01:06:40So you're just hanging out and breathing the oxygen.
01:06:43But if you're doing that, you're sitting in a pressurized chamber and you're basically
01:06:46a flammable-
01:06:47Or a candle wave.
01:06:50You're a bomb.
01:06:51So if something, if there's a spark of any type, you just blow up.
01:06:55Your phone or some device that you've got with you or whatever the fuck.
01:06:59Okay.
01:07:00No, no, no, no, no.
01:07:01This was, I was not, I had the, I was breathing the mask, I was doing stuff.
01:07:06Cool.
01:07:07Great.
01:07:08Okay, cool.
01:07:09Yeah.
01:07:10So yes, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I think today it's fair to say has been the single
01:07:14best performing therapy we've ever done.
01:07:17And this is both good news and bad news because the bad news is that it's expensive, it's inaccessible,
01:07:24it's time consuming.
01:07:25Super inconvenient.
01:07:26So it sucks because I hate sharing this because people, it's very exciting, but then it sucks
01:07:30because people can't do it.
01:07:31I mean, if you're ready to say, "I've got to find a sauna to use," and most people don't
01:07:35have a sauna in the house, "Oh God, now you're telling me I need to produce my own oxygen.
01:07:40This thing weighs fucking two tons.
01:07:42Where does it fit?"
01:07:44Totally.
01:07:45Yeah.
01:07:46And who has 90 minutes in a day to go do this thing?
01:07:49So I would just say for people who have a serious condition, and there's a variety of conditions
01:07:56that this could address, like even cognitive decline or wounds for diabetes.
01:08:03What would be on the list?
01:08:05So there's a lot of emergent evidence for cognitive decline, that if you're entering the latter
01:08:10parts of your life and you're really struggling, this could have a meaningful impact on that.
01:08:15It is used for diabetics who can't heal very well.
01:08:18It's used for healing.
01:08:19So people who've had surgeries to accelerate the healing process, if you have some kind
01:08:22of injury, you're really trying to overcome, that can be great.
01:08:25You're just telling me that some athletes post-surgery are in 90 minutes three times
01:08:29a day.
01:08:30Exactly.
01:08:31They're trying to hit that 90 session number within weeks.
01:08:34Yes.
01:08:35So there are some specialized applications where, and people where it makes sense for
01:08:39the person to do, but I just want to be very sensitive.
01:08:41I understand it sucks to hear something's really efficacious and you can't get at exclusionary.
01:08:46That makes sense.
01:08:47So yeah, we basically, like we do with all things, we measured, we had this, we cast this
01:08:52really wide net.
01:08:53We measured everything we could, my brain, my microbiome, a full blood panel, saliva
01:08:59stool, metabolomics, proteomics, like you name it, we measured it.
01:09:03And we just found improvements across the board.
01:09:06It was really, because most therapies will improve like this particular marker or that
01:09:10marker, but rarely do they have this broad spectrum improvement.
01:09:14So we saw like the cognitive decline marker, PTAL217 drop, we saw a microbiome, I had zero
01:09:22dysbiosis in my microbiome, like no signatures at all of dysbiosis.
01:09:27We saw, I had no detectable inflammation in my body.
01:09:29So like when my HSCRP came back, zero.
01:09:32The 99.99, like he's beaten the test.
01:09:35Exactly.
01:09:36It was really remarkable across the board.
01:09:38And so it was really efficacious.
01:09:39I did 60 sessions over 90 days and I've continued to do it.
01:09:43I've now done something like 200 sessions over the past year or something like that.
01:09:48So I just have it as part of my routine.
01:09:50I do it, you want to be careful not to do it too much because you'll have oxygen toxicity.
01:09:55Yes.
01:09:56You want to have some...
01:09:57But that's why the five-minute break is so important, right?
01:09:58Yeah.
01:09:59And I also take like a week-long break.
01:10:00I'll do a sprint, then a week-long break.
01:10:03So you just need to be careful because you can overdo it and cause harm.
01:10:06If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going
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01:11:11What was the protocol of mask on, mask off?
01:11:1320 minutes on, five minutes off.
01:11:15Cool.
01:11:16Yeah, I was doing that.
01:11:17The one super fucking annoying thing there is it's very relaxing to be in, it can be
01:11:23very relaxing once you've pressurized, but you can't sleep because you've got to take
01:11:32this thing on and off.
01:11:34One of the things that I really enjoyed doing was HRV resonance breathing while I was in
01:11:38there.
01:11:39Have you got into resonance breathing yet?
01:11:40Have you been doing it in the H-bot?
01:11:42So much fun.
01:11:43Yeah, it is.
01:11:44So much fun.
01:11:45There's a product that I got sent, I think in the first person outside of the company
01:11:50to have got it, it's this little lamp.
01:11:51I wouldn't be able to take it in, all fucking hell would break loose, but it's basically
01:11:55a resonance breathing stone and you pick it up and it's got an FDA approved thing in it
01:12:00and the lamp goes up and down and you put it back and it's done.
01:12:02So you don't need your phone, you don't need anything else, that's brilliant.
01:12:04But elite HRV is what I was using with the strap, I'm going to guess you'll have seen.
01:12:09One thing that I noticed about that niche issue, the strap that came with the elite HRV thing,
01:12:17which you put on so that it can detect like real high fidelity, high Hertz heart rate thing.
01:12:23The button that you use to press to turn it on has a tiny little air pocket around it.
01:12:28So I got into the fucking H-bot and by the time I'd pressurized to get down there, the
01:12:33button had been smashed and I couldn't press, there was no air to press the button and then
01:12:38I was like trying to press it and it's just like SpongeBob when he gets outside of the water.
01:12:45So anyway, H-bot, couple of questions on this, 60 sessions as quickly as possible, basically,
01:12:54to start to accumulate, it's not like a one and done type of thing.
01:13:01I think I asked you this at the time, I'm interested if there's any more information, going from
01:13:07trait change to trait change, like is this the sort of thing that locks in, I'm aware
01:13:12you haven't then tested coming off and seeing what the tail of this is, but the same thing
01:13:18goes for sauna.
01:13:19Are you just fighting entropy with this?
01:13:22Is it something that you just need to do or is there anything, I certainly know in me,
01:13:28if I look at a therapy or a modality or whatever and I find that there's no carry over, I feel
01:13:35despondent and I'm like, "Fucking hell, I've just found this new thing, here's another thing
01:13:41I have to do."
01:13:42Does that make sense?
01:13:43Yeah.
01:13:44It's because both you and I are on the other side of the entropy curve, the deal you want
01:13:50is youth.
01:13:51When you're 12, you just keep on getting better.
01:13:55But once you cross over-
01:13:56Slow down.
01:13:57Slow down.
01:13:58Exactly.
01:13:59They just, every day they get up and shit's just better.
01:14:02But yeah, you and I are both on the other side where we're on this irreversible decline and
01:14:06so yes, you've got to keep it up.
01:14:08But one thing people are not aware of with HBOT is it's the best skin rejuvenation therapy
01:14:14in the world.
01:14:15So a lot of people-
01:14:16Better than red light, better than microneedling?
01:14:17Everything.
01:14:18Better than the vampire facial, better than any laser.
01:14:21It is because if you look at the data on the biopsies of rebuilding collagen, elastin and
01:14:27reducing senescent cell, it basically remodels your entire skin.
01:14:31It's not just face, every layer of skin you're remodeling is really remarkable.
01:14:36If you look at people, if I see people now, I can tell a signature of HBOT skin.
01:14:44It's very, very clear to me what it looks like and so it just happens.
01:14:48So yeah, that's the other thing is a lot of women who really care a lot about skin, HBOT-
01:14:54Getting the fucking HBOT.
01:14:56Even if you pair, the best banger protocol is to, for skin, is to pair the best devices
01:15:03with HBOT.
01:15:04So you basically, you do like a surface level, like a 1550 nanometer to resurface the skin
01:15:09for spots, wrinkles, stuff like that, then you do HBOT and you can accelerate the healing.
01:15:14Is that microneedling?
01:15:15Is that what you're referring?
01:15:16No, it's just a laser.
01:15:17Like a 1550 nanometer laser where it's a very benign laser, if you do it right, has lower
01:15:23risk of like pigmentation issues.
01:15:26For wrinkles, spots, just like for texture, and then you can do a deeper device like a
01:15:31softwave, S-O-F-W-A-V-E, where it's ultrasound, where it's 1.5 millimeters below the dermis.
01:15:38So you hit top layer and underneath the dermis, so you're rebuilding collagen and the entire
01:15:43scaffolding of the skin.
01:15:44And then you do the HBOT and then you accelerate the healing.
01:15:47So you basically do more sessions in this.
01:15:50So that's like- You do an acute like skin rejuvenation thing
01:15:53and then fuck up.
01:15:54That's the best thing.
01:15:55You're still here.
01:15:56She's outside.
01:15:57I think I did softwave because I went to your dermatologist in LA.
01:16:01Which one?
01:16:02Fuck, I can't remember the lady's name.
01:16:03It was in, that was why I had a mustache.
01:16:05I grew a mustache because I needed to get rid of my facial hair because they needed to do
01:16:09that in order to be able to, I'm pretty, I'm almost certain it was softwave that I was in.
01:16:15It felt like a- Cigarette burn that never actually got to a bone.
01:16:19Exactly.
01:16:20It was like you're being singed by like a hot metal iron.
01:16:23Yeah, but it never actually peaks to the- Yeah.
01:16:26It was a really interesting lesson in, and blowing the cold shit, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:34It was a really interesting lesson in pain that because what you realize as you ride this
01:16:41crescendo for the people that haven't seen it, it's literally as if someone was to put
01:16:44something really hot out on you and when that happens, there is a swelling, there is a crescendo,
01:16:49but it usually peaks that you can almost hear it, right?
01:16:52If you have alcohol and an open wound, that's, it goes like that, but it doesn't ever get
01:16:58above a six or so.
01:17:02If she did, if she set the settings to 3.5 joules, which is the lowest setting, then it
01:17:08gets pretty tolerable if she goes to 4.2 top end, because basically it's a total energy
01:17:13per area.
01:17:14I think I had it at around about three point, I think she had it at 3.6, 3.7, so I was being
01:17:19a weenie.
01:17:20Okay, yeah, so if you're the 4.2, where it basically like it cuts down the number of pulses
01:17:24by 30%, if you want to like zip through it, god damn that, that is so painful.
01:17:28No thank you.
01:17:29Oh man, it does, it just feels like a red hot iron into the face.
01:17:35No more, no more, thank you.
01:17:39You mentioned there about sort of vascular health and blood flow, obviously we started
01:17:43talking about night time erectile stuff, for guys to improve blood pressure, vascular health,
01:17:53and then I guess downstream from that, the impact on erections, erectile dysfunction beyond
01:17:57like night time stuff.
01:17:59What have you come to learn about that, what's the protocol for a guy to improve that?
01:18:04Yeah, so I guess I would say to people listening, maybe the thing that's most interesting is
01:18:10when I started this when I was 42, I was pretty beat up.
01:18:14I had eaten sugar cereal as a kid, soda, downed 70 grams of sugar daily, canned foods, I did
01:18:25the entrepreneurial grind, didn't sleep, I was depressed for 10 years, I was overweight,
01:18:30I did all the things.
01:18:31Starting behind the eight ball.
01:18:33All the bad things, and so I'm 42, I'm pretty beat up, my aches hurt, I'm losing my hair,
01:18:39and so I didn't really know what could be done.
01:18:44I'm really shocked by how efficacious this entire thing has been.
01:18:48I'm just really stunned that the body really has this capacity to bounce back no matter
01:18:54how bad things are.
01:18:56So one, for anyone listening who needs hope in their life, it really, the body is too far
01:19:03gone.
01:19:04Totally.
01:19:05So don't give up, the smallest of things can have the biggest yields, and so have hope.
01:19:11And then two is, I've been jamming on this for five years now, my markers keep on getting
01:19:16better.
01:19:17And so we still, I've aged past five years in time, but I'm still hitting new record highs
01:19:24in nighttime erections, in fertility markers, in my speed of aging, in my DNA, in my telomeres,
01:19:30all these things are improving as time is passing.
01:19:33Doesn't seem to be a ceiling.
01:19:34So I mean, on the grand scale of things, I suspect these are, this is not going to get
01:19:41me to 200 years, it's not on that kind of scale, but still, in how I feel as a person,
01:19:47I do feel extremely energetic, I'm very clear-headed, I feel my mood is very stable, I don't get irritated,
01:19:52I'm just kind of cool with existence, which is like, for me, that's the marker of health.
01:19:58So one hope, two is, I think it's really worth the investment of this stuff, just paying your
01:20:03- paying the discipline to do a consistency, and then the last thing is, you don't need
01:20:11to do what I do.
01:20:12Like, you don't need to chase these expensive therapies, you don't need to do HBOT, the basic
01:20:17stuff has the dividends.
01:20:19And so I want people to feel hope and not discouraged, I want them to feel empowered, not like, damn
01:20:25it, that's out of reach.
01:20:26Because it really is, it's within people's reach, and I hope they walk away feeling like,
01:20:30damn it, I can do that, I'm going to do it, I can do that.
01:20:33What are the big moves?
01:20:34We've already said, sleep, and you've given a good breakdown there.
01:20:36If there was a top three, top five, however many you need for, okay, the Pareto, 80% of
01:20:46the results come from these things, what are those things?
01:20:48Yeah, so first, I would frame this in a moral philosophy.
01:20:52So I'd say, if - Believe - Yes, first, like, your most prized possession
01:21:01is agency.
01:21:04Nothing valued more than your agency.
01:21:06And right now, most people's agency is compromised, that they are not the architects of their life
01:21:12because they compulsively scroll, they compulsively eat fast food, they compulsively do all these
01:21:19addictive behaviors.
01:21:20And then when pressed on it, they rationalize it as virtue because they're trapped.
01:21:26And so I would challenge everyone here to say, like, reclaim yourself, don't do anything you
01:21:32don't want to do, and that the enemy is the motherfucker who's trying to get you to do
01:21:38something that is not in your best interest.
01:21:41Fuck them.
01:21:43That is the enemy.
01:21:44And so, like, that gives you real moral power.
01:21:46Don't be puppeted.
01:21:47Now, once you have that principle, like, I'm going to set my bedtime, I'm not going to doom
01:21:53scroll, I'm not going to eat that fucking bag of Skittles, right?
01:21:55I'm not going to eat the fast food.
01:21:57That's poison.
01:21:58They're going to trick me into thinking it's a treat or something.
01:22:01But that's, I think, for me, the boundary conditions of how you create the kind of energy state
01:22:09of, like, I can do this and I have a moral will to do it, not just because of self-help,
01:22:16but I'm fighting an enemy, I'm overcoming adversity, I'm a man standing on my agency or woman.
01:22:23Like that, to me, gives it the juice, too.
01:22:24I have the willpower to do it.
01:22:26Okay.
01:22:27Now that we've got the moral framework, what are the tactical things?
01:22:29Yeah.
01:22:30So you, once you have agency, you want to reclaim your willpower.
01:22:33You need to have juice in the tank to say, like, I can make decisions that I can do it.
01:22:37So one is you want to master sleep.
01:22:39You want to build your entire life around sleep.
01:22:41That's very counterintuitive, but you want to plan when you go to bed, when your windover
01:22:44team is, you want to set strict rules, you want to plan your lighting, like, again, you
01:22:49can choose your archetype, whether you're really regimented, whether you're, like, more flexible,
01:22:52like, whatever your thing is, but just build your entire life around sleep.
01:22:56And if you need justification, realize those not doing that are 10 to 12 points stupider
01:23:02than you.
01:23:03Like, they're actually dumb, so they take a retardation exercise for them.
01:23:06You're actually going to be smart.
01:23:07Once you do that, exercise, because that also is going to boost your willpower.
01:23:10So boost it with sleep, boost it with exercise, and then once you get those two down, then
01:23:14tackle food, because food is the most complicated.
01:23:16Food is where we go to, like, soothe ourselves to do, like, the self-therapy.
01:23:20So only tackle then, try to start just having a bit more good things for you and a few less
01:23:25bad things.
01:23:26Like, slowly walk your way into it.
01:23:28Radical change is hard for a lot of people, but it's, like, slow walking into it.
01:23:31And then if you, again, have that in the back of your mind, like, a rule, you will never
01:23:35ever eat fast food ever again.
01:23:37Like, none is better than some.
01:23:40So there's no moderation.
01:23:41There's no once a day, like, the idea of a cheat meal is the worst idea in history.
01:23:45Like, don't do cheat days, don't do cheat meals, don't do cheat weeks, don't do cheat anything,
01:23:50don't cheat.
01:23:51When it comes to exercise, well, for longevity, most people are already doing, almost everybody
01:24:01that's listening is going to have some sort of training regime, I would imagine.
01:24:05The vast majority of them are going to be something like a push-pull-leg split.
01:24:09And maybe other people are runner boys and runner girls.
01:24:15If you were to design the minimum effective dose, this is where I think the blind spots
01:24:23are for people.
01:24:24What would you say, exercise-wise?
01:24:27Because everyone's got their jam, well, there's Pilates, weights, whatever, just do it.
01:24:31Just be active for roughly an hour a day.
01:24:33Do cardio to strength to balance to flexibility.
01:24:37Everyone's got their own preferences, but I think I don't go after the details here because
01:24:42there's, like, endless material to go after.
01:24:45Just be active and commit to be active.
01:24:46Some people like chicken, some people like salmon, some people like kale, some people
01:24:49like spinach.
01:24:50Exactly.
01:24:51And the same thing with food.
01:24:52I don't get into the game of carnivore versus vegan versus paleo versus whatever.
01:24:58They're abstractions, which are irrelevant.
01:25:01Eat what you want, measure your body, make sure you're good, and then fine-tune yourself.
01:25:05I have a Don't Die Food guide.
01:25:06We tried to look through all the scientific evidence and say, "What are the very best foods
01:25:10in existence with the highest value of evidence that you can put into your body?"
01:25:13So we just said, by a power law perspective, "Here's what I'd put on so I can share that
01:25:17as a plate."
01:25:18Outside of that, do your thing.
01:25:20Just eat what you want, just measure your body, make sure you're good.
01:25:22Right.
01:25:23Okay.
01:25:24Methylene blue.
01:25:25How'd you get on with that?
01:25:26I stopped it because I started 25 milligrams a day, and then, oh, it was conflicting.
01:25:30We started a therapy doing altitude training.
01:25:32So you take your blood oxygenation down to 80%.
01:25:36We did it, and the two have conflicting mechanisms of action, and we realized it on day three.
01:25:41We were like, "We better stop methylene blue to do some therapy."
01:25:44Oh, okay.
01:25:45Is methylene blue?
01:25:46It's like nicotine derivative, right?
01:25:47Or it's something to do with nicotine?
01:25:48I mean, it's a synthetic dye.
01:25:49Initially, it was built because the surgeons wanted to see where they're actually in the
01:25:53surgical body.
01:25:54But it was actually FDA approved for, what was it, I forget how you know, it was FDA approved
01:26:01quite a while ago.
01:26:03But overall, we don't think that's really, we don't think it's worth it as a therapy.
01:26:09Yeah, it's more for like mitochondrial health.
01:26:11Okay.
01:26:12Testosterone.
01:26:13Yeah.
01:26:14Testosterone, the fucking hormone of the 21st century.
01:26:19It is.
01:26:20What have you come to learn about testosterone?
01:26:22Yeah, so I'm in like the 700s naturally.
01:26:25So just by doing all the basic stuff.
01:26:27What were you in when you started, do you know?
01:26:30I guess like, when I was 42, I don't know, I need to look at my data.
01:26:37But if a man is low on testosterone and the natural approaches are not addressing it, it
01:26:42probably makes sense to do something about it.
01:26:44Like being low on testosterone just has really negative consequences.
01:26:47So yeah, go to a watch out there.
01:26:49What are the ways to intervene naturally?
01:26:52What are the biggest needle movers that you've found?
01:26:54All the basics, right?
01:26:55Like sleep.
01:26:56Like I think poor sleep, four hours of sleep a night will knock you down something like
01:27:0210 to 20% on testosterone.
01:27:06Really like really big drop.
01:27:07Less of a man again.
01:27:08Again.
01:27:09Yeah, like high status status.
01:27:10So then sleep, exercise, nutrition, like all the basics.
01:27:14I don't think there's a lot of proven supplementation that can move the needle.
01:27:20Without getting into pharmacology.
01:27:21Yeah, I think people have played a bunch of stuff.
01:27:24If I'm not mistaken, I'm not sure the clinical evidence is very strong there.
01:27:27I need to look at it.
01:27:28I guess I have never had low testosterone, so I've never had to look at supplementation
01:27:31as a means to do it.
01:27:32So I guess I would be cautious and my knowledge is limited in terms of the true evidence for
01:27:37clinical intervention.
01:27:38The thing that's interesting around sort of male hormone, and I imagine it's the same for
01:27:43women, but I don't know anything about them.
01:27:46The relationship between, it's such a fucking like balance beam of LH, FSH, testosterone,
01:27:55free tea.
01:27:56Yeah.
01:27:57Yeah.
01:27:58SAGB.
01:27:59Yeah, there is no, it seems to me, total fucking white belt.
01:28:04It seems to me like one intervention is not one intervention.
01:28:08It starts to roll away into this domino effect.
01:28:11So talking about, I want my testosterone higher.
01:28:12It's like, well, do you?
01:28:13Yeah.
01:28:14Yeah.
01:28:15Do you?
01:28:16Maybe FSH needs to happen.
01:28:17I mean, people that go on Enclomafine or HCG chronically, what is it like 20% or some big
01:28:22percent of them talk about that inducing depression and you go, okay, so you're worried that you
01:28:28had low energy because of your low testosterone and you tried to take a non-exogenous solution
01:28:36to create that, so I'm going to kickstart my own production by using these compounds.
01:28:42And in the process of doing that, I've made myself have depression, which almost certainly
01:28:46made you a fucking low, I forget low energy, you've got low mood now.
01:28:49Yeah.
01:28:50And so, yeah, be careful how you intervene with that, I think.
01:28:54Yeah, that's very true.
01:28:55Yeah.
01:28:56I guess the way we thought about it is we approached this holistically.
01:28:59We just said our frame entirely is scientific evidence, just like what does the body of evidence
01:29:07say to do?
01:29:08And we took the most powerful molecules in the form of foods, supplements, and then lifestyle,
01:29:15sleep, diet, exercise, and then therapies, sauna, H-bot, and we just said take the very
01:29:21best high-performers ones, put it all into one package, and do the entire package.
01:29:25And it makes sense if you're taking care of the entire body on every level, you have these
01:29:31systematic effects.
01:29:32They all come online.
01:29:33Exactly.
01:29:34So I think people approach these things very narrowly, but our hormones is a very – you
01:29:38see microplastics, right?
01:29:41Microplastic in the testicles has a negative feedback loop for fertility and hormones.
01:29:47The same is true with toxins.
01:29:49So when we talk about testosterone, we don't talk about microplastic intervention, which
01:29:54then leads back to sauna, which then leads back to – so like we try to just be holistic,
01:29:59like give me the whole thing and let me build that into one daily practice.
01:30:04So I don't have to then try to figure out like this and that thing.
01:30:08Talking of daily practices, what's this 15-second phone call thing you're doing?
01:30:12Oh yeah, with my friends, yeah.
01:30:13So a friend of mine introduced this to me.
01:30:16So he – I became friends with this person and he's very powerful and he would call
01:30:27me and he'd be like, "Brian," like blank statement.
01:30:31I say something to him.
01:30:32He'd be like, "All right, man.
01:30:33I love you.
01:30:34See you."
01:30:35That's it.
01:30:36And I was like, "That is amazing.
01:30:37It was so clean.
01:30:38It feels so good."
01:30:39And we just did that through like a couple of months and we built this amazing friendship.
01:30:4315-second friendship.
01:30:45But it was like this deep – and I guess I imagine in my mind, like I imagine what his
01:30:51day must be like.
01:30:53He's juggling all kinds of crazy things.
01:30:56He clearly does not have time for like sit down, hang out, do this and that, but yet he
01:31:00does such a great job of maintaining really meaningful, like deep relationships.
01:31:05So when he says he loves you, it's like you feel it.
01:31:07It's like he's not like just saying it.
01:31:09And so I appreciated his model of friendship so much because before I was stuck in this
01:31:14idea that, "Hey, Chris.
01:31:15You want to hang out?"
01:31:17You know?
01:31:18It's a big deal.
01:31:19It's like a fucking Airbnb.
01:31:20I'll buck a week off work.
01:31:21Yeah.
01:31:22It's like a four-hour thing, right?
01:31:23Versus calling you like, "Hey, man.
01:31:24Like what's up?
01:31:25How you doing?"
01:31:26And like you can answer because you know I'm not going to be on the phone for 20 minutes.
01:31:29Yeah.
01:31:30I mean, I did the series Life Hacks on the show when I first started and we do one every
01:31:34year now at Christmas.
01:31:35And back in the day when that was one of the big thrusts of the show, we'd often get asked,
01:31:42you know, 500 or 1,000 Life Hacks that you did, one of the highest impact ones.
01:31:49The first one is always sleep with your phone outside of your bedroom.
01:31:53But it's an instant 10% to 15% improvement in quality of life in that one thing.
01:31:58So that's actually before sleep.
01:32:00Let's take the charging cable outside of your bedroom and put it in the kitchen.
01:32:04But the second one was text your friends when you think of them.
01:32:07And this is my equivalent of the 15-second friendship.
01:32:11And it's just, "Hey, man, like thinking of you, hope you're well, like whatever."
01:32:16Or a photo that you think about your friend and you find an old photo and you send it.
01:32:20And it really speed runs a friendship.
01:32:24You become tighter friends with people who you've known for less long than people that
01:32:28you've known longer that you don't do that with or don't do with you.
01:32:31And I really loved it.
01:32:32And it really brightened my day.
01:32:33And it felt like I was doing something good for someone at a very low cost.
01:32:37It was like high impact.
01:32:38It was high leverage, friendship.
01:32:40Right.
01:32:41It was a low investment.
01:32:42Very, very high impact.
01:32:43Yeah.
01:32:44A little bit of a giggle and it keeps it going.
01:32:45Exactly.
01:32:46And the other thing it does, which is, I guess, a hack from my world of running nightclubs.
01:32:51It's an idea of assume familiarity.
01:32:54Yes.
01:32:55So assuming familiarity in this context is most people that don't know each other particularly
01:33:00well have this sense that any text has to be super verbose.
01:33:07Yeah.
01:33:08"Hello, dear Brian.
01:33:09I hope that you are in the family are well.
01:33:10I must congratulate you on the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah," as opposed to funny meme or
01:33:15whatever.
01:33:16"Hey man, thinking of you.
01:33:17Hope all's good."
01:33:18Whatever.
01:33:19Right?
01:33:20You can take it a little bit too far and it sounds a bit entitled or a bit brusque or sharp
01:33:26expectant.
01:33:27But if I'm like, "Dude, love the YouTube video.
01:33:29By the way, I'm an agebot.
01:33:31How long am I supposed to breathe it for?"
01:33:32Oh, thank you for fucking consuming my shit and for the respect.
01:33:37By the way, here's a thing.
01:33:39We don't need foreplay.
01:33:40Right?
01:33:41Let's get into it.
01:33:42Exactly.
01:33:43Yeah.
01:33:44I mean, since we hung out on Prospera, we've been doing that, right?
01:33:46And it's-
01:33:47Bullshit.
01:33:48No talk for three months and then a dikka, dikka, dikka, dikka, and then no talk for three
01:33:51months and then dikka, dikka, dikka, dikka.
01:33:52And I feel as fluid with you as I feel with any friend I've had for any duration of time.
01:33:57We get each other.
01:33:58We're on the same wavelength.
01:33:59We understand it's happening to each other's lives.
01:34:01Most of my friends...
01:34:02Actually, I'm really surprised.
01:34:05Most of my friends who are powerful and successful and famous are lonely, right?
01:34:14They work all the time.
01:34:16They have work relationships, but the amount of time they have to be down and hanging out
01:34:21is so small.
01:34:23And so if you don't have some mechanism to create deep friendships, and time is not your...
01:34:28You can't use time.
01:34:29You have to use something else.
01:34:31Yeah.
01:34:32It needs to be a longer lever to be able to work.
01:34:34And so I've just been surprised that people have this perception that they always perceive
01:34:40others like they must have it all, but loneliness is a real thing.
01:34:43And so I guess, again, I say this for those who are listening.
01:34:47If you feel lonely, understand your pattern is pretty similar to other people's patterns,
01:34:52independent of resources or position or power status.
01:34:55The people at the top of the tree are struggling with the loneliness just as much as you do.
01:34:59And this is the cool thing is when I've talked to my friends and they'll disclose that.
01:35:03It's a really, you have to be...
01:35:07It's a scary thing.
01:35:08Shameful thing.
01:35:09Yeah.
01:35:10It is.
01:35:11To actually disclose that.
01:35:12It's like, "I don't have any friends."
01:35:13I had a friend of mine connected me with a celebrity today, one of the A-list celebrities
01:35:18in Hollywood.
01:35:19I talked to this person.
01:35:20I said, "Why don't you come over to my house?
01:35:22We'll do a don't die dinner.
01:35:23Get 10 or 15 of your favorite people.
01:35:25Come on over."
01:35:26I'm like, "I'll do this whole thing."
01:35:27And I explained it.
01:35:28And they said, "I don't really have any friends."
01:35:31Wow.
01:35:32Yeah.
01:35:33It was just such a shocking moment because they are epicenter celebrity.
01:35:38And one, it was cool.
01:35:39They just said that.
01:35:40And two, I was like, "Amazing.
01:35:41So I will put the group together for you.
01:35:44Come on over.
01:35:45We'll have a great time."
01:35:46But yeah, just so people realize it's a very common thing in our modern society.
01:35:49So nothing to feel ashamed about or feel bad about.
01:35:52You can make these corrective actions by doing small things like voice notes, quick calls.
01:35:57And also by making the bar so low, if you swing and whiff it and this person doesn't
01:36:05actually really want to be friends, whatever, doesn't think you're cool or they're too busy
01:36:08or whatever the fuck, they're not ready to be friends, you haven't invested in anything.
01:36:16You met somebody, you send them a few texts, whatever, it doesn't matter.
01:36:20I was just going to loop back to that thing I said about the emotions piece before.
01:36:24I understand what you mean with regards to sort of creating a philosophy, but I am still
01:36:31interested in what the practices are and how you look to prioritize the emotional wellbeing,
01:36:38the social element, if there is a spiritual element to this too, and how you come to think
01:36:46about off-spreadsheet markers of longevity and wellbeing.
01:36:57So in 2025, we did five Don't Die Summits, 1,500 people, they were all sold out.
01:37:03We brought people together and we experimented with different formats, but we brought them
01:37:08together.
01:37:09We did education courses, we did raves at seven in the morning, it was amazing, we had so much
01:37:13fun, we did group exercises, we did group therapy stuff.
01:37:18So I think 2026, we learned a lot by doing this.
01:37:21We're going to do this in 2026 where I've been actually piloting a Don't Die fam in my neighborhood.
01:37:28So I've got several friends and we had this format where we get together every week.
01:37:33First we take a shot of olive oil, ritualistic, and then we each go around and we apologize
01:37:41to our body for something we did that week.
01:37:44And so it's kind of funny, it's kind of funny, it's kind of fun.
01:37:49And then we go around and each person talks about like what's on their mind or what they're
01:37:52struggling with.
01:37:53And so it's a very like open floor supportive, it's like YPO, AA, it's a very similar format
01:38:01that's kind of stamped out through various organizations, but it's basically like small
01:38:05intimate trusted group where you can be vulnerable and there's a specific approach where you're
01:38:09focusing on Don't Die.
01:38:11But really it's about human connection, it's about sharing and what you're struggling with.
01:38:15So whether it's that or something else, we're trying to figure out how, if Don't Die is to
01:38:21become the fastest growing ideology in history, we're trying to figure out what is the path
01:38:27for that to happen.
01:38:28And so it can happen in small clusters from around the world.
01:38:30We could even have physical locations.
01:38:32We could have something like a sovereign fund where we pull our capital and we start funding
01:38:39things together.
01:38:40So we're sorting on community connection, emotional, social in 2026.
01:38:45The past couple of years have been like, how do you create something novel, sticky, distinct,
01:38:52and create a structure around it?
01:38:53And now we're going to create the wrappers.
01:38:55So it's just like the next stage of where we're at.
01:38:58Very cool.
01:38:59When we first ever spoke, however long ago that was, I asked you a question about, I didn't
01:39:08use this word, but the grief of not starting earlier.
01:39:12The potential resentment that you can place at your caregivers and your friends and your
01:39:18culture of this didn't happen earlier.
01:39:22And the entropy you started on the other side of the roller coaster, right?
01:39:26You're like, oh fuck, like I'm fighting against it as opposed to improving it.
01:39:30I can't get younger in the same way as I could have gotten, or at least slowed it down or
01:39:35whatever.
01:39:36Are you interested in your relationship with that dynamic now, a few years hence, more time
01:39:42to think what could have been, but also to think, well, I can't, by focusing on that,
01:39:48I'm losing the very time, which I'm claiming is now being more limited, that seems like
01:39:53a very stupid way to spend my life.
01:39:56Where have you come into land with, you said before, and I think it's a really good point.
01:40:01It's not too late.
01:40:02You can reverse or you slow down, like you can really, really make great progress no matter
01:40:06where you are, but the emotional connection to what could have been had I've started earlier,
01:40:11what I've done to my body, the grief, that stuff, what's your relationship with that like
01:40:16now?
01:40:17Yeah.
01:40:18I mean, as you might guess, I view this question through the moral frameworks, right?
01:40:22Basically, the premise of the question is that I'm in a low status position because of these
01:40:31preceding events, that I didn't have parents that knew health and wellness when I was a
01:40:38kid.
01:40:39I didn't understand health and wellness myself in my 20s.
01:40:42I fell prey to cultural norms that said destroy yourself, right?
01:40:47And so the way I'd evaluate any person answering your question is how skilled are they in taking
01:40:55a low status position and converting it to high status?
01:40:58How do you flip the question for me to find virtue in my place and attribute charity to
01:41:04what's preceded?
01:41:06Because really, it never makes sense for a person to wallow in grief.
01:41:12Like, yes, it makes sense to reconcile, like to be honest, like we can acknowledge that
01:41:16may have been a mistake.
01:41:18We can contemplate, we wish it wouldn't have happened, but really, you don't want to sit
01:41:25in negative emotions.
01:41:26It's just not good for you.
01:41:28You don't want to beat yourself up.
01:41:30So you can either take a step where you say, "I'm reconciled, I'm neutral, I'm fine with
01:41:38it," or you can say, "I'm going to invert it."
01:41:41But that's what I've really learned more than anything in my life, that's what I try to train
01:41:45my kids, is don't be subject, don't lose your agency and be subject to pain that is self-induced.
01:41:56You can choose how you feel.
01:41:58This is kind of like Viktor Frankl's man-search for meaning, right?
01:42:00He's in the concentration camp, and he's like, "I'm not going to let these conditions determine
01:42:05my state of mind.
01:42:06I'm going to choose that state of mind myself."
01:42:08But that's really ultimate agency, and so I'd take your question and I would invert it and
01:42:12be like, "This is the most interesting time in the history of four point whatever billion
01:42:18years that we've been on this planet.
01:42:20I am so fortunate to be alive right now, and I'm in my 40s, where I'm still in my prime,
01:42:29and I can have a meaningful impact on what happens to the human race.
01:42:33That is a possibility.
01:42:34So I wouldn't trade anything under any circumstance to trade the position I'm in right now, because
01:42:40it's the coolest moment in the history of the human race."
01:42:42And so quick inversion, and now I'm like, "Damn, pretty cool."
01:42:45I'm pumped about this situation.
01:42:47My shoulders have relaxed a little bit.
01:42:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:42:49I remember you tweeting a while ago, "Do you think you're going to die in a super ironic
01:42:53way?"
01:42:54Of course.
01:42:55Guaranteed.
01:42:56Yeah.
01:42:57How is that not possible?
01:42:59For sure.
01:43:00I mean, so this morning when I was coming here, I was opening a glass jar of sauerkraut, fermented
01:43:07sauerkraut.
01:43:08I popped it and it sliced my fingers in three places, bleeding all over the place.
01:43:12And I was like, "What if I die from a glass bottle of fermented sauerkraut?
01:43:17Would that be just beautifully ironic?"
01:43:20So yes, I hope it's spectacular.
01:43:23I hope it's really something epic and not something lame.
01:43:26Sauerkraut would be a cool way to go.
01:43:28I mean, I guess you tell me, what would be an epic...
01:43:33What hits the timeline when you're like, "Okay."
01:43:37Ready to go with that.
01:43:38That would be cool.
01:43:39I mean, sort of car action, a '70s action movie rolling down a huge cliff would be...
01:43:47That seems like a pretty cool way to go.
01:43:49Certainly not being the passenger of a plane where the pilot decides that he's sick and
01:43:54he just wants to crash it into a mountainside, that would suck.
01:43:58Something that's just me, I don't want to take anybody else with me.
01:44:02If I'm going to go up in flames, like hit by a bus, but the bus goes on.
01:44:08Caught in the act of adventure.
01:44:13You're doing your thing, you're pushing the boundaries, you're in your happy state.
01:44:18Eating fermented foods.
01:44:19Yeah.
01:44:20I think of Shackleton, and I think of his going through the Antarctic and their survival.
01:44:26They were all ready to have a noble death.
01:44:30We wouldn't have found out about it.
01:44:31They would have been gone to history, but still, they were...
01:44:34I like that kind of...
01:44:36I love those stories.
01:44:37There's a book that you may love if you like Alfred Lansing's Endurance, which is the best
01:44:41retelling of Shackleton's Crossing, I think.
01:44:44There's a wonderful one called The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urquhart, a British
01:44:49soldier, Scottish, captured by the Japanese bridge over the River Kwai, forced labor, Hiroshima
01:44:55bomb blasts, everything, everything, everything, everything.
01:44:58And then I read Unbroken, Louis Zamperini.
01:45:02So I'd never even know, because I'm not American, right?
01:45:05So I would get Shackleton and I would get Alistair Urquhart, but I'd never get Zamperini.
01:45:11I didn't even know he existed.
01:45:12And he meets Hitler at the fucking Olympics, and he goes through all of this stuff.
01:45:17So if you like Unbroken, dude, The Forgotten Highlander will take your head off.
01:45:22Unbroken.
01:45:23That broke me.
01:45:25He's on his raft, getting shot at from the Japanese airplanes, underneath the raft, getting
01:45:31hit by sharks, back on the raft of bullet holes.
01:45:34And that's on day 142 of not eating food.
01:45:38The dude's eating all the chocolate and you're like, your best mate, yeah, steals all the
01:45:42fucking chocolate.
01:45:43Yeah, dude.
01:45:44And those stories to me are wonderful.
01:45:47I ruptured in Achilles in 2020 playing cricket, fully British.
01:45:52And asked a couple of friends that had been through some sort of similarly traumatic injuries,
01:45:59big fuck off, severe thing.
01:46:02And they said, The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday, Forgotten Highlander by Alistair
01:46:08Urquhart, Ross Edgley's book, The Art of Brazilians, which is about his swim around, he's the first
01:46:16person to swim around the UK, six hours on, six hours off.
01:46:22And then Amazon Prime documentary called Resurfaced with Andy Murray.
01:46:28Andy Murray's a tennis player, Scottish tennis player.
01:46:30And he gets a hip replacement.
01:46:34That lateral movement means that hips really get tested in tennis players.
01:46:38And he's aging out a little.
01:46:40And they try and do rehab.
01:46:44They try and do surgery.
01:46:45They try and do surgery.
01:46:46It's just not working.
01:46:47And really the only solution, I think, is maybe a ceramic socket with a steel joint.
01:46:55But it's not meant for high impact sport, it's very smooth and very reliable.
01:47:03And the outcomes are great.
01:47:04But not if you're pushing it to the sort of, you'd steal up against ceramic like porcelain
01:47:09or whatever it is.
01:47:10It's not going to last.
01:47:11Or maybe it's not.
01:47:12And it's just this journey of him going through it and he's working in his house.
01:47:16Just obsessive, just so unrelenting.
01:47:20And those sorts of stories, I think, are really empowering and really enlightening and very
01:47:27inspiring.
01:47:29And it's the ability, what I'm really interested in playing with now, is the ability to take
01:47:33that kind of inspiration and be like, fuck, I've been kicked in the nuts a good bit this
01:47:37year.
01:47:38All right, you got this.
01:47:40You can lean in.
01:47:41You can do this thing.
01:47:43And then being able to, I switch it off.
01:47:46I need to be able to switch it off.
01:47:48If I can't switch it off, then I am pressing the accelerator driving downhill.
01:47:54I'm giving myself more of the thing that I already have too much of.
01:47:58So playing with that tolerance, like a dose-dependent inspiration in that way.
01:48:03Does that make sense?
01:48:04Yeah.
01:48:05It's a U-shaped curve.
01:48:06Yeah.
01:48:07You need just too little.
01:48:08You're not doing anything.
01:48:09Too much.
01:48:10You're wide but tired.
01:48:11It's probably the skill set society needs the most help on right now.
01:48:14Because everyone is right up to the red, actually in the red zone and just there constantly.
01:48:21I think it's probably like a chronic thing of our society.
01:48:26Brian Johnson, ladies and gentlemen.
01:48:27Dude, you're great.
01:48:28I really appreciate you.
01:48:29I appreciate your friendship.
01:48:30What can people expect next, however long of yours, months, what's coming up?
01:48:37This is my prediction.
01:48:38AI is center stage already for society.
01:48:42It will continue to be center stage.
01:48:44I'm not talking about timeframe for six months or 12 months, but over the next few years,
01:48:49it's going to just continually to be evolved to be the primary thing of our attention.
01:48:54And as that happens, we are going to want the stability to understand the world in ways that
01:49:02makes us feel safe, that we have meaning and purpose, that things are stable.
01:49:08And I think this is where Don't Die will step in.
01:49:10It will be a structurally sound, coherent, emotionally resonant ideology and moral philosophy
01:49:19that actually answers the most important questions for us as a species individually, collectively,
01:49:23with AI, with the planet, like we're just due for a revolution.
01:49:26So yeah, in the coming years, that's what I hope to bring to the world is like that we
01:49:30actually can find coherence in our existence and realize the spectacular nature of this
01:49:38moment, the most precious thing that's ever existed.
01:49:41And it's like really ours.
01:49:42We, I guess, an invitation to sober up, realize how special this is.
01:49:47And for us, like we need to prove ourselves worthy of the future.
01:49:52We oftentimes don't think about, like we want to be, we want to demonstrate our value to
01:50:01our peers, to our coworkers, to our family, to our partners.
01:50:05I think that same relationship exists to the future, that it really does ask us to rise
01:50:09up.
01:50:10And so I hope, above all, I hope I'm a positive influence of people's lives, that when they
01:50:17find themselves in moments of struggle or weakness, they've got somebody in their court saying
01:50:21like, you can do this.
01:50:23And yeah, so I'm just really excited about what's happening.
01:50:26I feel like I've been working my entire life at this moment and I'm excited to play the
01:50:30game.
01:50:31- I'm excited to see what happens, man.
01:50:32Just don't do the fucking, don't start wearing white robes, grow your hair out.
01:50:34Like I don't want to see the cult leader pivot, but what I do think is cool is the like sanguine
01:50:42self-awareness thing.
01:50:43I think that's really important to like, just read it out.
01:50:47You mentioned a couple of resources, like a food guide or something.
01:50:51Is there any, are there any cool lead magnetic bits that people can snag that?
01:50:54- Yeah, so I'll give you, I'll give you the food guide.
01:50:57I'm also, I'm publishing, I have a website protocol@brianjohnson.co.com and I'm hopefully in the next couple
01:51:04of weeks, I'll repost all my updated stuff.
01:51:07So if you wanted to see my journey and what I'm doing now and why, I'll have it there for
01:51:11you.
01:51:12So like a free guide.
01:51:13And I'm also writing a book.
01:51:14So don't die, so I'm halfway through and it's basically going to be like, hopefully a guide.
01:51:21And then, yeah, I'm trying to make this easy and I know it's a lot.
01:51:24And then also we just raised 60 million for blueprint.
01:51:27And so-
01:51:28- Oh yeah, what's going on with that?
01:51:29What is that?
01:51:30- Yeah, so basically blueprint is don't die in action.
01:51:33And so in the same way where you say, if I want to go to this destination, I put in an
01:51:37address, go, and it tells me what streets to go down or where's the construction, where's
01:51:41the crashes, blueprint is going to be basically like AI for your health.
01:51:47It's like you say, I want to be healthy.
01:51:50And we say, come on in, we got you.
01:51:52And so it will take us some time to build that.
01:51:54But that's what I have today with my team of doctors.
01:51:56Like I just follow a practice where we measure me, we get the data, we look at evidence and
01:52:01we say, do this, do this, do this, do this, exactly.
01:52:04So I don't have to chase all these esoteric hard things.
01:52:06So blueprint is basically like autonomous health for humans, where I just say like, I want
01:52:10to be healthy and you get into a system and now we just run the data evidence repeat again.
01:52:14So hopefully like that's-
01:52:16- Exciting time.
01:52:17So it feels like, I know you're going back to where you started back into founder mode.
01:52:21I hope that you don't take your eye off what the ball is supposed to be with regards to
01:52:27that, like the temptation man to be, ooh, we could build it more and this is time it's
01:52:32good.
01:52:33This time it's for humanity.
01:52:34You go, well, yeah, the service is good, but so is looking after like serving you first.
01:52:38- Yeah.
01:52:39You're like the one thing I care to accomplish in life.
01:52:42Like everything else can go by the wayside.
01:52:45The one thing is what is high status?
01:52:48That's the only game I care to play.
01:52:50And so from specifically from the frame of, from the perspective of the year 2,500, when
01:52:55they look back at this moment and they're looking at moments to say a Plato, Aristotle, Renaissance,
01:53:02like they'll say a new era was born of a new status seeking thing.
01:53:09And that's otherwise like the entrepreneurship stuff.
01:53:11Like I really enjoy it.
01:53:13It's been my jam, but that's not where I want this to work.
01:53:15I want it to be successful.
01:53:16It's actually a practical manifestation, but I have one objective in existence is that.
01:53:20- Fuck yeah.
01:53:21Ryan, I appreciate you man.
01:53:22Until next time.
01:53:23I'm looking forward to the book.
01:53:24- Thanks man.
01:53:25Thank you very much for making it to the end of an entire episode.
01:53:30You are not sufficiently TikTok-brained that you've switched off during it.
01:53:35And that's something to be proud of.
01:53:37Maybe that's the best thing you've achieved today and I'm here with you.
01:53:40Why not go two for two and watch one of my favorite episodes right here.

Key Takeaway

Bryan Johnson proposes a new moral framework centered on 'Don't Die,' which uses rigorous biological data and optimized lifestyle habits to reclaim human agency and prepare for a future shaped by superintelligence.

Highlights

Nighttime erections as a critical aggregate biomarker for metabolic, cardiovascular, and hormonal health.

The 'Don't Die' moral philosophy as a counter-movement to high-status self-destruction and 'death culture'.

Evidence-based sleep hygiene protocols, prioritizing heart rate reduction and consistent regularity over duration.

Sauna and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT) for detoxification, microplastic reduction, and skin rejuvenation.

The concept of 'Agency' and reclaiming willpower through behavioral changes, such as the 'None is better than some' rule.

Addressing the 'modern psychosis' and loneliness epidemic by building deep human connections through 'high-leverage' 15-second interactions.

Timeline

Erections as the Ultimate Health Biomarker

Bryan Johnson begins the discussion by sharing his record for nighttime erections, comparing his performance to that of an elite eighteen-year-old. He explains that these physiological events are not just about sexual function but serve as a 'canary in the coal mine' for overall health, including cardiovascular and metabolic status. The frequency and duration of these events are driven by sleep quality, hormone health, and physiological well-being. Johnson argues that while society often views sleep deprivation as a badge of honor, it fundamentally destroys this vital biomarker. This section establishes that biological markers provide an objective truth about one's health that cannot be faked through appearances like muscle mass or skin quality.

The Status Warfare of Health and Sleep

The conversation shifts toward the cultural perception of 'hustle and grind' versus longevity. Johnson describes his work as 'memetic warfare,' aiming to flip the status of self-destructive behaviors from high to low. He explains that current culture celebrates killing oneself for power, wealth, and status, which he labels as 'death culture.' By highlighting that sleep deprivation leads to biological shutdown, he seeks to make it socially undesirable. This shift is compared to historical inversions of power, such as religious movements that prioritized virtue over raw strength. The goal is to change the moral narrative of what people aspire to, making health the ultimate flex.

A New Moral Philosophy for the AI Era

Johnson articulates his core mission: creating a new moral framework that enables humanity to survive the transition to superintelligence. He argues that our current ideologies are outdated for an era where AI is making novel discoveries and altering the human experience. The 'Don't Die' philosophy posits that existence itself is the highest virtue when we are on the precipice of creating superintelligent beings. He touches upon how therapies like GLP-1s are already changing fundamental human essences like hunger, suggesting that more radical changes are coming. This section emphasizes that his health protocols are merely a language used to communicate a deeper existential strategy. He views the upcoming years as a critical opening for a brand new philosophy of life.

The Risk of Civilizational Psychosis

The speaker addresses the 'coming psychosis' of a society whose cognitive environment has outpaced its biological capacity. He cites rising rates of antidepressant use, suicide, and loneliness as biomarkers of a species losing its coherence. As AI destabilizes traditional identities tied to professions and social structures, humans risk falling into existential chaos. Johnson suggests that 'Don't Die' provides a sturdy identity based on the shared mission of overcoming entropy and biological decline. He frames the challenge of solving for death as a grander, more inspiring game than capitalism. This section highlights the need for a 'global biological immune system' to protect the planet and the species from various threats.

Tactical Protocols for Sleep and Willpower

Johnson provides a detailed, 30,000-foot view of his sleep and behavioral protocols. He emphasizes that sleep is the foundation of willpower, and without it, managing other habits like nutrition becomes nearly impossible. Key tactics include finishing meals at least four to ten hours before bed, turning off screens 60 minutes prior, and using amber lighting to facilitate melatonin release. He introduces the concept of 'Sleep Brian,' a mental persona that manages internal anxieties and 'ambitious thoughts' before bed to prevent nighttime rumination. This section serves as a practical guide for listeners to reclaim their agency by mastering their nighttime routine. He stresses that regularity and heart rate reduction are more important than almost any supplement.

Behavioral Change and the 'None is Better Than Some' Rule

The discussion covers the psychology of breaking bad habits, specifically addressing the struggle of nighttime overeating. Johnson explains his strategy of 'firing' the version of himself that makes poor decisions in the evening, removing its authority to eat food. He critiques the idea of 'moderation' as a clever catchphrase used to justify an inability to maintain discipline. For many, 'none' is psychologically easier to manage than 'some,' because it eliminates the constant need for negotiation and willpower. This approach is framed as a way to avoid the 'inner citadel'—a psychological retreat where people convince themselves they don't want the health they cannot achieve. Reclaiming agency requires setting strict boundary conditions to avoid being puppeted by addictive modern environments.

Sauna, HBOT, and Advanced Detoxification

Johnson shares findings from his experiments with dry sauna and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT). He presents evidence that sauna use led to a 90% reduction of microplastics in his blood and semen, a world-first demonstration. To protect fertility during high-heat sauna sessions, he utilizes ice packs on the testicles, which surprisingly resulted in record-high sperm counts. HBOT is highlighted as his best-performing therapy, showing dramatic reductions in brain inflammation markers and significant skin rejuvenation. He describes HBOT as a broad-spectrum therapy that remodels collagen and reduces senescent cells across the entire body. While expensive, these therapies demonstrate the body's remarkable capacity to 'bounce back' from years of neglect.

Loneliness, Community, and the Future of 'Don't Die'

Addressing the social component of longevity, Johnson discusses the epidemic of loneliness, even among the most successful individuals. He advocates for 'high-leverage' friendships maintained through short, 15-second phone calls and texts to stay connected without a high time cost. In 2026, he plans to expand 'Don't Die' summits and local 'fam' groups to foster human connection and shared vulnerability. These groups involve rituals like taking shots of olive oil and 'apologizing to the body' for the week's mistakes. He views these social wrappers as essential for the emotional and spiritual health of the community. This section underscores that longevity is not just a solo physical pursuit but a collective social movement.

Reclaiming Hope and the 'Blueprint' Mission

In the final section, Johnson encourages listeners to feel hope rather than grief about their past health choices. He asserts that he is in his prime in his late 40s and that the body can always improve regardless of where one starts. He announces the 'Blueprint' initiative, which aims to provide 'autonomous health' for humans by using AI and data-driven protocols. This project is intended to make his rigorous scientific approach accessible to the public, effectively becoming an 'AI for your health.' Johnson concludes by stating his life's objective: to redefine what 'high status' means for the future of the human race. He invites everyone to sober up and prove themselves worthy of the spectacular future that awaits.

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