How TikTok Hijacked the Future of Music - Nik Nocturnal

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CChris Williamson

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Transcript

00:00:00- How big of an impact do you think TikTok has played

00:00:02in shaping the way that modern metal music sounds now?

00:00:06- Ooh, it has a pretty big impact

00:00:09because all the young kids growing up right now on TikTok,

00:00:12and I remember, you know, even when I started YouTube,

00:00:15that was like a newer thing.

00:00:16People were discovering music through YouTube.

00:00:18I discovered a lot of like the big bands I listened to

00:00:20growing up through YouTube, and that was like unheard of.

00:00:22You know, it was like, no matter what,

00:00:24it was usually all on the radio or like, I don't know,

00:00:26your brother gave you like a cassette or like a CD.

00:00:29So that was already such a new thing.

00:00:31There was kids discovering music through the internet,

00:00:33and I mean, MySpace, YouTube,

00:00:35I mean, like Facebook to some capacity after that.

00:00:39So TikTok was kind of just that next generation

00:00:42of people scrolling and whatever they might be doing.

00:00:44Doom scrolling or just, you know,

00:00:46I don't know, trying to find cooking recipes,

00:00:48and then all of a sudden, you know,

00:00:49if they like music in any capacity, or even if they don't,

00:00:52you know, they hear a sound and they're like, this is cool.

00:00:56And a lot of the things with modern metal is,

00:00:59there's a lot of good clip moments

00:01:02usually with modern metal, particularly, you know,

00:01:05whether it's the breakdown or the other breakdown

00:01:08or the crazy vocal moment, or even on the guitar,

00:01:11so crazy guitar moment, maybe drum moment, right?

00:01:12There's a lot of musicianship and like unique attributes

00:01:16that kind of go into that skill

00:01:20and in terms of like metal as a genre.

00:01:22So like when you're able to just like kind of clip farm

00:01:24some things like that and be like, oh,

00:01:26like here's the best part and you instantly get a payoff

00:01:29versus most people you have to listen to the whole song

00:01:31or like, you know, in a minute and a half

00:01:32until the breakdown happens.

00:01:34So TikTok, I think really enforces that

00:01:37where people will be scrolling

00:01:38and they'll just hear like this crazy noise or breakdown

00:01:40or some dude screaming and doing goblin noises.

00:01:42And it'll be like, oh, I want more of this.

00:01:44You know, you instantly get hit with the punch line.

00:01:47It's like watching a horror movie

00:01:48and only getting hit with the jump scare.

00:01:50So it's, you instantly get kind of intrigued.

00:01:52And I think that has really helped push metal

00:01:55into a bigger kind of more just normalized audience.

00:01:58- Look at the state of "Can You Feel My Heart?"

00:02:00Look at the state of that "Bring Me" track,

00:02:03which if anybody listened to that album when it came out,

00:02:06it was good, it was a good song.

00:02:07It's one of my favorite songs on the album.

00:02:10It shouldn't be like 10 times better known

00:02:13than the next best known "Bring Me" track.

00:02:16And then just because the internet gets a hold of it

00:02:18and can do, if you make a track that is good

00:02:21to have videos laid over the top of.

00:02:23So that's my, that's what I'm thinking now.

00:02:26How many bands are thinking almost short form first?

00:02:30Like these are the three segments of this track

00:02:34that work for some reason.

00:02:35And then can we seed a meme early?

00:02:38I mean, both of us know that the industry

00:02:40are doing exactly this.

00:02:42Like they're seeding, who was that?

00:02:44Fuck, who was that band?

00:02:45Is it Geese or something?

00:02:47Is that the band?

00:02:48I swear it's called Geese.

00:02:51When it comes to writing tracks,

00:02:53I think it seems so.

00:02:55When it comes to writing tracks,

00:02:58bands have to be curating that sound to go,

00:03:01this is a bit that everybody's gonna clip to go on TikTok.

00:03:04Obviously not everybody, but some non-zero number

00:03:06that think, hey, we've got a chance

00:03:08of really blowing this up.

00:03:09Yeah, I think bands are really aware of it.

00:03:13And I think a lot of bands still nowadays are like,

00:03:15you know, let's just, let's write our bangers.

00:03:17You know what I mean?

00:03:17Like it's also weird

00:03:18'cause there's a different process of writing.

00:03:20Obviously it's not, hey, everyone let's hang in our garage

00:03:22and figure it out until mom tells us to come up for dinner.

00:03:24You know what I mean?

00:03:25Or whatever kicks us out of the house.

00:03:27You know, it's, everyone's on their laptops.

00:03:29Everyone's, you know, either with their one producer

00:03:32or with, you know, now AI exists too,

00:03:34which is his own fun thing.

00:03:36So it's like, the process is also really different.

00:03:39And capturing that very exciting live,

00:03:42like start to finish song moment with you and your band mates

00:03:47is not as common in general when songwriting.

00:03:50So now, because it's so segmented

00:03:53and a lot of people even are like,

00:03:54okay, well, let's start writing,

00:03:55let's start writing the song at the breakdown, you know,

00:03:57because that can,

00:03:58let's start writing it at the climactic moment.

00:04:01- We'll write how the movie ends

00:04:03and then we'll work back from there.

00:04:04- Yeah, so that's also things that have been happening.

00:04:07And with that, obviously bands are more, you know,

00:04:10attuned with like, hey, you know,

00:04:11we've been in a band for 10 years making heavy music.

00:04:14All right, well, we've seen other bands, you know,

00:04:16blow up by literally just having one moment

00:04:18that was crazier than the other moments

00:04:19or like one noise, you know,

00:04:21literally vocal gymnastic that they did it.

00:04:23- Look at like Knock Loose,

00:04:25what they've managed to do through short form as well,

00:04:27just by being kind of the best extreme sound

00:04:29that most people have ever heard.

00:04:30- Yeah, well, that's a thing with Knock Loose particularly

00:04:32is I think they don't care about any of that,

00:04:34but because their music is so intense and so well,

00:04:39momentum, like, I'm sorry, it's paced so well.

00:04:42They naturally work in that world.

00:04:45- Well, that's what it's supposed to be.

00:04:46Social media is supposed to be something that happens

00:04:50that wasn't meant to fugazi everybody into loving it

00:04:52on social media, being loved on social media

00:04:55because it's a window into something outside of it.

00:04:58- Exactly.

00:04:59- And the problem is if you try and make it for social media,

00:05:02you also have to mask over the fact

00:05:04that this isn't supposed to look like it was made

00:05:06for social media 'cause that then completely undermines it.

00:05:09- Yep, and then also a lot of time, unfortunately,

00:05:11the song just sucks, you know, like in the end,

00:05:13you get like a shitty song and that's the worst part

00:05:17because sure, you'll maybe get some hype

00:05:18and maybe you'll get like a lot of people going like,

00:05:20"What was that?"

00:05:21But then you won't get replayability.

00:05:22You won't get a timelessness of a song.

00:05:24And then it's, again, because that becomes more of the focus.

00:05:27The focus is let's create a moment of a song

00:05:31instead of let's make a good song.

00:05:33There's a lot more songs then,

00:05:34but then there's not a lot more long lasting songs

00:05:37and songs that actually people like put even

00:05:39in their playlist other than like,

00:05:41well, here's the meme, you know, here's the meme song.

00:05:43Oh, he did the thing, you know what I mean?

00:05:45- Jerry, can you give me the screen?

00:05:48'Cause I wanna pull up something that I think,

00:05:51like I started listening to metal when I was in college,

00:05:53right, so do you remember that job for a cowboy moment?

00:05:58You know exactly the moment that I'm gonna pull up, right?

00:06:00What was it called?

00:06:02Was it "In Tumor"?

00:06:03- It was "In Tumor" with the girl scream, right?

00:06:04- Yeah.

00:06:05- Yeah.

00:06:06(laughing)

00:06:07(upbeat music)

00:06:12Kids today will never know.

00:06:13- Yeah, well, dude, that's what's happening

00:06:15is there's a revival of this stuff.

00:06:17- Bring me?

00:06:18- Oh, dude, count your blessings.

00:06:20They're gonna be the forefront.

00:06:21- Listen to this, Jared, you'll have never heard this before.

00:06:23(upbeat music)

00:06:26(laughing)

00:06:29- Out with the--

00:06:30- So unnecessary.

00:06:31- Yeah.

00:06:32- And then they put a bass bin.

00:06:33- Yup.

00:06:34- Like a proper electronic bass bin on that drop.

00:06:36I remember we were listening to that in my friend's car.

00:06:38I must've been 17 driving through the mean streets

00:06:41of the Northeast of the UK and he had a proper subwoofer

00:06:46in the boot of his car, the fancy head unit upfront.

00:06:50And I remember that shook my fucking teeth

00:06:53when that thing dropped.

00:06:54It was like, holy shit.

00:06:56- Dude, the bass drops of that era of music

00:06:59were legendary, unmatched of just these big 808 nonsense.

00:07:03You know what I mean?

00:07:04A lot of those, they were just having fun, right?

00:07:06They were with their producer and the producer

00:07:07could hit the button that literally was a bass drop

00:07:09or a reverse snare and everyone just laughed.

00:07:11- Do the thing, do the thing.

00:07:12- Yeah, that was the equivalent.

00:07:13Do the thing, but it was a fun thing

00:07:15that they know no one would have cared outside of them.

00:07:19And then they, 'cause they're putting out extreme music.

00:07:21You know, for this time, putting out that extreme music

00:07:23like Deathcore for example, like Deathcore wasn't Deathcore.

00:07:27There's no such thing as the word Deathcore.

00:07:28Even metalcore was kind of like not necessarily a term.

00:07:31- You might've had post hardcore at that time.

00:07:33- Yeah.

00:07:34- Coming through like Fightstar would have kind of

00:07:36been post hardcore-y sound.

00:07:37- Yeah, and then there was even bands like

00:07:39that were kind of that weird in the middle

00:07:40where they had post hardcore elements

00:07:42and, but they were metal, like Under Oath was a cool one.

00:07:44'Cause they had emo-y moments.

00:07:47- Melodically taken back Sunday,

00:07:48meets the heavy aggressive stuff.

00:07:50- Right, so it was just a weird era where there wasn't genres.

00:07:53It was more of that freedom, I think of just like,

00:07:55here's music and people that loved the extreme extreme

00:07:58were a lot of times just like kids that were screwing around

00:08:01and, you know, in school and were like, that's fun, dude.

00:08:03Like, can you do that again?

00:08:04Let's do that again.

00:08:05And it's funny 'cause now with the resurgence

00:08:08and the movement again of like the 2000 traditional

00:08:10Deathcore coming back, especially with Bring Me Being,

00:08:12like let's do Count Your Blessings again,

00:08:14'cause why not, we can do that.

00:08:16It's those moments, there's so many of those moments

00:08:19in that music that naturally would be the TikTok moment.

00:08:23- I wonder, so you know, pretty much everything

00:08:26has sort of come back around again.

00:08:27What was that video of the dude drinking ocean spray

00:08:30cranberry juice going down the street

00:08:32and it completely blew up a track

00:08:34that was 40, 50 years old.

00:08:36ABBA has had a resurgence like that.

00:08:38You know, so many old tracks that have come back around again,

00:08:40old hip hop that's come back around again,

00:08:41old pop songs that have come back around again.

00:08:44I haven't seen the same thing happen with metal.

00:08:46I haven't seen people go back to kind of the golden era,

00:08:502004 to 2010, which would have kind of been very formative

00:08:54for our age and then gone, oh my God, dude,

00:08:58have you heard like from the first bullet

00:09:00for my Valentine EP?

00:09:02Have you heard, oh, have you heard like this

00:09:03devil, a T.U. track?

00:09:05- Everyone knows Tears Don't Fall.

00:09:06That's, that's, it doesn't matter how much death metal

00:09:08you listen to and how much you would, you know,

00:09:10say words to people that liked that music

00:09:12when you were a young kid in the 2000s, right?

00:09:14Like it's like, you know Tears Don't Fall

00:09:16and all those kinds of clowns.

00:09:17I think what has happened is a lot of that music

00:09:21is starting to research because during the 10s and the 20s,

00:09:24like there's been a lot of cool music, a lot of cool metal

00:09:26and modern metal, but there hasn't been as many hits.

00:09:31You know, like there's, in the 10s, there was, you know,

00:09:34a big one in the metalcore scene was like

00:09:35Doomsday Architects, that's a massive one.

00:09:37But the thing is, yeah, but with bands like that

00:09:41and when those moments happen,

00:09:43what happens with the music scene tends to be like,

00:09:46oh, something's working and so many bands do that.

00:09:50The amount of, yeah, I talked with Sam from Architects one time

00:09:52and he was just like, yeah, he was quite aware

00:09:54how many people ripped off that riff.

00:09:56It was just like, it is what it is.

00:09:58Even, funny enough, wasn't, the intention wasn't metal,

00:10:01but Mick Gordon doing the Doom soundtrack is 10,

00:10:05it's 10 years later now.

00:10:05Oh my God, that is still one of the biggest influences

00:10:09on modern metal.

00:10:10- Did they not get Mick Gordon in to do the mastering

00:10:13for Bring Me's album?

00:10:14- Yeah.

00:10:15- I'm pretty sure that Jordan got him in

00:10:16to either help with something,

00:10:17maybe it was one of the tracks or at least maybe-

00:10:19- It was on Posthuman.

00:10:20I think he did, I'm not sure exactly his like credits,

00:10:22but I think he worked maybe on one of the tracks.

00:10:26He might've been mastering it mixed into a capacity too,

00:10:28but it's like-

00:10:29- Well, that just stinks of Jordan.

00:10:30Like Jordan's very sort of orthogonal approach

00:10:33to looking at stuff.

00:10:33Like he comes into a band that's very established

00:10:35and goes, okay, I'm gonna add sort of more complexity,

00:10:38mastering, the sound's gonna become wider,

00:10:40everything's gonna become bigger, it's more electronic.

00:10:42But yeah, dude, I mean, fucking Architects

00:10:45is a great example of this.

00:10:46Somebody who's been around way longer than you think.

00:10:49- Yes.

00:10:50- Those motherfuckers are old.

00:10:51I love Sam, I love the boys,

00:10:54but like they're looking well for their age

00:10:58and for how much touring they've done.

00:11:00I think they're on album nine or 11 now.

00:11:02And each album, if you track it,

00:11:04each album has just been linearly bigger than the last one.

00:11:08The lines just kept going up steadily.

00:11:10How many bands that after nine albums

00:11:14or 11 albums or something, have that be their biggest one?

00:11:17That's the first number one album

00:11:19or the first time that they charted,

00:11:20the first time, whatever, after doing it for two decades.

00:11:22That's really rare.

00:11:23- It's very tricky for bands to be that consistent.

00:11:27Bring Me is one of them, Architects is one of them.

00:11:29Obviously the newer bands like Sleep Token, Bad Omens,

00:11:31The Spirit Boxes. - Reddish, Reddish, dude.

00:11:33- Dude, Loathe, I don't know if you listen to Loathe at all.

00:11:35- I do, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:36- That was a crazy one where that one dropped,

00:11:37I think it was 2020 or 2021, around COVID eras.

00:11:40And it was like, I remember dropping and people were like,

00:11:42"Oh, this is cool.

00:11:43I like Deftones, Meshoga and Loathe.

00:11:45They're spiced on it, that's cool."

00:11:47And it was like, I noticed six months a year later,

00:11:49I was like, "Okay, why is this band now big?

00:11:53It's like these numbers are going crazier."

00:11:54And they haven't done dropped anything else.

00:11:56You know, they've been touring on it,

00:11:57but as much as they could, but there wasn't much going on.

00:12:01And then you start to see,

00:12:02"Oh, like these songs had something very special to them."

00:12:05They had a bit more of that timeless effort

00:12:07where they kind of- - Yeah, people are like,

00:12:08"What's going on, is this metal, is it shoegaze?"

00:12:09- Yeah, yeah. - It's sort of this-

00:12:10- That was when also the genre fusion thing

00:12:13was like kind of more in its infancy.

00:12:15Not that, you know, bands weren't doing it even in the 2000s.

00:12:18I mean, nu metal as a whole is genre fluidity, right?

00:12:21Of like hip hop and mainstream stuff mixed with,

00:12:24you know, aggressive riffs and groove and stuff like that.

00:12:27But I think in terms of the modern sphere

00:12:30where you're able to, in the same capacity here,

00:12:32like almost a near, you know,

00:12:342000 traditional deathcore breakdown.

00:12:36But then here, of course, where it's like an R&B

00:12:38or like a Deftonesy shoegaze kind of thing,

00:12:41that was a newer concept in the 2020s.

00:12:43- But to do it in a way that doesn't feel too partitioned.

00:12:47- Yes. - 'Cause, you know,

00:12:48if you go back to, what would be a good example of this?

00:12:51Earlier Day to Remember. - Yep.

00:12:52- Earlier Day to Remember, very poppy vocals.

00:12:55Jeremy's working real hard on that.

00:12:57And I remember a plot to bomb the panhandle, right?

00:12:59Where they got fucking What's His Face,

00:13:01that porn star in the music video.

00:13:03- Don't remember. - It was pretty funny.

00:13:06They were playing around with the cleanest vocals possible

00:13:10and the heaviest breakdown that they could get

00:13:13using the same tone.

00:13:14And it was good, but it did feel quite fragmented.

00:13:17And I think if you look at even their music now,

00:13:19but also if you were to look at basically anything

00:13:22except for Caramel, it's very flowy.

00:13:26Architects has gone from, I mean,

00:13:28they actually with Doomsday inverted it, right?

00:13:30And they went from heavy verse to melodic chorus,

00:13:33which had almost never been heard of,

00:13:35to go heavy to light as opposed to light.

00:13:38And then the chorus and the breakdown is what's heavy.

00:13:40- Yeah.

00:13:41Yeah, that's something where like,

00:13:42I think bands have gotten better.

00:13:44'Cause in the '10s, there was the whole like rise core era

00:13:47where there was the electronic.

00:13:48- Chunk, chunk, chunk.

00:13:49Yeah, like Edna Shikari.

00:13:51- Yes, all of that.

00:13:52And a lot of those bands,

00:13:53I think we did it with a lot of fun intent.

00:13:55You know, they were like, well, we liked that death core part

00:13:57of the 2000s and metal core.

00:13:59We liked the five, seven, eight riffs and all of that.

00:14:01But then also like, oh, synths, yo, what is this?

00:14:03(laughing)

00:14:04Like what the fuck's a synth, dude?

00:14:06Like, you know, like electronic dance breaks.

00:14:07- What's the most rave sound that we can get

00:14:10from sort of the mid '90s?

00:14:11And I'm going to put it over the top.

00:14:12- Yeah, and I think a lot of people initially

00:14:14when they started like obviously Attack Attack

00:14:16being a big proponent of that.

00:14:17And like early, early asking Alexandria and those bands

00:14:19where it was like, oh, this is like so weird and out there.

00:14:22And I think when those bands start to adapt it initially,

00:14:25it is, it's obviously fragmented,

00:14:27but it's like, you can tell they are having fun with it.

00:14:29So they didn't necessarily care for it to be

00:14:32like this beautiful cohesive from start to finish work.

00:14:35It's just like, no, here we like breakdowns

00:14:37and then we liked electronics and we just shoved it,

00:14:40like whatever.

00:14:40And if it works.

00:14:41- This bits the electronics bit,

00:14:42this bits the breakdown bit, and you're going to listen.

00:14:44- And you're going to be forced to listen

00:14:46because you want to get to the ending,

00:14:47which is the other breakdown.

00:14:48So like, it's weird how they wrote stuff back then.

00:14:51And some of that song,

00:14:53some of those songs have like a lot of longevity.

00:14:54Some of them do not at all.

00:14:56And oh my God, you're like, damn that,

00:14:58it was definitely just part of the movement.

00:15:00But I think over time,

00:15:01bands start to just get better at blending.

00:15:03And like I said, I think Mick Gordon.

00:15:05- All sophisticated, mastering's better,

00:15:07the production's better.

00:15:08It's not just some dude who happens to be okay on Pro Tools

00:15:12or like that's like piecing this together.

00:15:14Oh no, no, no, we're getting the guy

00:15:15that made the fucking Doom soundtrack in to do this.

00:15:18And then as soon as that's done,

00:15:19everybody else can kind of, okay,

00:15:21what did Mick do to make that sound quite wide?

00:15:23What did he do to layer 75 cents on top of each other?

00:15:26- There's so many cents on guitars.

00:15:29I joke about it every time because it just is what it is,

00:15:32but it's more sound design now.

00:15:34Like the guitar- - So true.

00:15:36- Obviously in a lot of sub genres of metal,

00:15:38like extreme death metal or technical death metal

00:15:40and that kind of stuff, it's very like a riff first.

00:15:43Like you have one or two guitars and they sit there

00:15:46and they make sick ass riffs in audible tuning.

00:15:49Not in like drop omega lol tuning.

00:15:51Like it's still like drop C or E standard, you know.

00:15:55There's a band Silosis who I don't know if you know them

00:15:57with Josh Middleton. - No.

00:15:58- He's super sick.

00:16:00He is a riff master.

00:16:01They've been going since, oh my God, 2006?

00:16:06I'm gonna, people are gonna-

00:16:07- What the fuck happened?

00:16:08Big question. - Yeah.

00:16:09- We'll get back to talking in just one second,

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00:17:37What happened in 1988 to 1991

00:17:42to produce so many humans that in 2006 to 2010

00:17:47would create fucking insane music for the next two decades?

00:17:50What was in the water?

00:17:51But it's attack, attack.

00:17:53Everybody fucking splinters off in different directions

00:17:56and they all rule.

00:17:58Like Underoath still going fucking decades later.

00:18:01- Dude, they're killing it.

00:18:02They sound very good.

00:18:03They sound very good nowadays.

00:18:04And I think a lot with all of those legacy bands too,

00:18:07I'd consider Underoath in that capacity

00:18:08where they have such a good old catalog

00:18:10as well as their new stuff is sick

00:18:12where like they're able to embrace their old catalog.

00:18:15And I start to see a lot of those bands,

00:18:16especially new metal bands.

00:18:18Oh my God, like the Linkin Parks and the Korns.

00:18:20- Have you seen MGK is about to release a track

00:18:21with Limp Bizkit?

00:18:22- Yeah, that's fun, man.

00:18:24Like, you know what I mean?

00:18:25It's gonna be like-

00:18:26- They kind of fit.

00:18:26- Hot, you know, starfish fucking hot dog brother, hell yeah.

00:18:29Like whatever.

00:18:30You know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

00:18:31I don't know how they're gonna combo,

00:18:32but like it'll make sense, you know?

00:18:34And that's something, when I see stuff like that,

00:18:36I think it's fun.

00:18:37Even if the song ends up being shit, I'm like, that's fun.

00:18:40- I'm glad that you did it. - Yeah, someone went for it.

00:18:43You know what I mean?

00:18:44Like that's cool.

00:18:45And unfortunately in the metal scene,

00:18:48you not only don't get rewarded for those efforts,

00:18:51you usually get shunned intensely.

00:18:54- Oh, for collaborating too much outside of the genre?

00:18:56- Yeah, if like you get shunned if it's not like-

00:18:58- Do a feature on your fucking next track or whatever?

00:19:00- Yeah, it's very tricky.

00:19:02There's very rare occasions where like,

00:19:04it's like, oh hell yeah, like this is sick.

00:19:06Like there was one,

00:19:07I think like Spirit Box did something with like Megan,

00:19:08Megan Thee Stallion and I was like, that's a big combo,

00:19:11you know, between those two.

00:19:12- And I imagine that the Venn diagram of the people

00:19:14that listened to Spirit Box and Megan Thee Stallion,

00:19:17just fucking two circles that have never intersected.

00:19:19- Dude, it's tricky 'cause nowadays I think

00:19:21kids are growing up with like, I don't know,

00:19:23maybe they're going up with their parents,

00:19:24like that they grew up in the 2000s in the nineties.

00:19:26So they listened to all the pop and radio stuff,

00:19:29but then also, I don't know, dad listened to Suicide Silence,

00:19:31you know, or mom listened to The Acacia Strain, you know?

00:19:34So it's like-

00:19:35- I used to run nightclubs in the UK

00:19:36and the venue that I was working at passed through hands

00:19:40a bunch while we were running the Saturday.

00:19:42We had this huge fuck off Saturday,

00:19:43the shout out to everyone

00:19:44that came to Voodoo Saturdays in Newcastle.

00:19:46And we were doing like 1800 kids a week

00:19:49in a venue that held a thousand.

00:19:51And we were, it was like,

00:19:52they were pouring out the back doors,

00:19:54the door staff were taking back handers

00:19:56so that people could cue jump

00:19:57because it was the hottest thing for half a decade.

00:20:00It was really cool, it was fun to run.

00:20:02It passed hands a second time after about three years,

00:20:06four years in, and it became a live music venue

00:20:08'cause it had a big stage,

00:20:09it had quite good sound production

00:20:11and they started putting bands on.

00:20:12I was like, oh, this is cool.

00:20:14Like maybe some bands will come through that I really like.

00:20:17Not many bands came through that I liked,

00:20:19but there was one time where I needed to clear out

00:20:23the remnants of the mosh pit after Every Time I Die

00:20:26and the same thing after Suicide Silence

00:20:29and the fucking guys came upstairs

00:20:31and the dude, I didn't realize, I can't remember who it is,

00:20:34one of the guys was recovering.

00:20:38I can't remember who it was, but he came upstairs

00:20:40and all of his bandmates, they're like,

00:20:42what's going on after this?

00:20:43And I'm like, hey, it's a club night

00:20:44and if you look outside, there's 500 people waiting,

00:20:48like just pouring out of this car park.

00:20:50And I'd go outside, like some, I had a big afro at the time,

00:20:53some huge fucking big head conductor

00:20:55trying to orchestrate this just chaos,

00:20:58this cacophony of bullshit.

00:20:59And they're like, oh, this sounds sick.

00:21:01And I remember that one of the guys,

00:21:02I think it was Suicide Silence, I hope I haven't got it wrong,

00:21:05I remember that one of the guys was sort of thinking like,

00:21:07this sounds really good, but like,

00:21:08I probably shouldn't be in a nightclub

00:21:10surrounded by 1500 British 19 year olds,

00:21:14given that I'm recovering.

00:21:16Anyway, it just, it caused this sort of crazy crossover

00:21:19between different worlds.

00:21:20But you are right, like people listen to,

00:21:22that you can have a dad, like my age,

00:21:26listening to something that the kid,

00:21:27the kids are like teaching him about sleep token

00:21:29and he's teaching them about Every Time I Die.

00:21:31That's what's happening now is,

00:21:33it's funny to see with like, you mentioned sleep token,

00:21:35like the battle with these very particular

00:21:36modern metal bands are like,

00:21:38they seem to be like going through all the generations,

00:21:41so like the younger kids are finding them on TikTok

00:21:43and then the parents, maybe it's also

00:21:46because their kids are listening to them, but they're sick,

00:21:48but because they're so accessible in a capacity,

00:21:50even though they still have really heavy moments

00:21:52and breakdowns and all this stuff, they're so accessible

00:21:53where like, you know, the parents will be like,

00:21:56oh wow, I really, that's such a good chorus,

00:21:58I love this singing.

00:21:59My mom does, grew up, did not, you know, listen to metal.

00:22:03She was lovely, always supportive,

00:22:05but definitely when I was, she told me a story one time

00:22:07of like, very funny, she was like, oh my goodness,

00:22:11you know, Nicola, like when you were growing up,

00:22:13there was one point you told me you like, you know,

00:22:15this metal music and I couldn't sleep for a week.

00:22:17Like, you know, 'cause she--

00:22:18- My mom and dad got worried too.

00:22:19- She thought I was, I don't know,

00:22:20I was gonna be possessed or something.

00:22:21- My mom and dad got worried as well that too.

00:22:22- Yeah, and like, I didn't grow up in her time,

00:22:24which I get looking back on the history,

00:22:26like the satanic panic and all that,

00:22:27she's like, oh, okay, like I get it, like the perception

00:22:29of that music was different.

00:22:30- It was kind of like first wave the way,

00:22:32like what would have been prior to 2004,

00:22:37like what's the genesis of the genre in the '90s and the '80s?

00:22:42The sound is so different.

00:22:45Like if you put a boy brush red on now,

00:22:48and then you play a sleep token afterwards,

00:22:52or you play omens or something, you're like, oh yeah,

00:22:55yeah, I kinda get how that's like, you know,

00:22:58it's in the same sort of lineage or whatever.

00:23:02But I don't think if you did the same thing

00:23:0420 years before 2006, 1986,

00:23:08you're not gonna get the same sort of lineage

00:23:10that you could track throughout the sound.

00:23:11So maybe it's literally just that what you listen to

00:23:14when you're a teenager, you get locked into,

00:23:16and that's still the best, like for me,

00:23:18Taken Back Sunday, both of their albums from like 2004, 2006,

00:23:22are gonna be the greatest albums that I've ever heard.

00:23:25But I'm happy for someone else to come along

00:23:27and try and have their shot, and I'm still in that.

00:23:30And because the music's evolved, but not changed necessarily,

00:23:34I think I'm still prepared to listen to it.

00:23:36- Yeah, for me, it's like, I go back in that stuff

00:23:39I grew up with, like Alexis on Fire and like Bullet.

00:23:42Dude, Alexis on Fire needs more love.

00:23:44- Bro, Dallas Green, fucking happiness,

00:23:46happiness by the killer.

00:23:47I'm gonna, Jared, give me the thing.

00:23:49I just wanna listen.

00:23:51This is gonna kill the fucking retention, and I do not care.

00:23:55I do not care at all,

00:23:56because fucking Happiness by the Killawatt

00:23:58is just one of the fucking most insane,

00:24:01and a bunch of people that I know.

00:24:04- Watch out, self-titled in crisis, it's just a trilogy.

00:24:08- What a fucking insane run.

00:24:10I mean, what is this?

00:24:12Oh, turn it up, Jared.

00:24:14(upbeat music)

00:24:16- Dude, it's good vibes, man.

00:24:19- Absolute retention killer, and I couldn't give a fuck.

00:24:22- I think also, man, with this time,

00:24:25it was this beautiful transition of youthful music, right?

00:24:30- Bro.

00:24:35- I'm not a drummer, I don't know what I'm doing with that.

00:24:38- It's so fucking beaut, and then this atmospheric,

00:24:41so this is very prescient, super fucking prescient.

00:24:45I saw Dallas Green released an album recently.

00:24:47- I haven't kept up with Dallas.

00:24:49I remember in the 2000s when City of Color was massive,

00:24:52and everyone in Canada was like,

00:24:53oh my God, you're like, you know, this is,

00:24:55'cause that broke through, obviously,

00:24:56just the metal heads, that was like,

00:24:58oh, this is like mainstream here.

00:24:59Like, this is like, you're a huge star here, which is crazy.

00:25:03And I would hear that on the radio all the time.

00:25:05And then I would always laugh when people would discover

00:25:08he's in "Alexis on a Fire," 'cause that's what I knew about.

00:25:10- Yeah, I knew Dallas through "Alexis,"

00:25:12not the other way around.

00:25:13I'm like, oh, this guy's got a solo project, cute.

00:25:15- Dude, that era of music, I think, is my favorite.

00:25:18I talk about it all the time when I have people

00:25:20kind of old our age, where like we grew up

00:25:22in the late '90s, 2000s, and it's like such a special era

00:25:26where we still went outside, but we had games,

00:25:30and we had the internet.

00:25:31Like, it existed, but it wasn't life.

00:25:33- You had the distribution without the capture.

00:25:35- Exactly, and it wasn't,

00:25:36you're consuming everything you were doing,

00:25:38and that's something that's so beautiful about it.

00:25:40- I gotta bring it up.

00:25:40Have you heard the new fucking "Seiassen"?

00:25:42- It's sick.

00:25:43- Oh my God. - It's nostalgic.

00:25:44- "Seiassen" was my fucking, why can't I find it?

00:25:48It's just reaction. - Fucking reaction.

00:25:49- These are your fucking fears, dude.

00:25:52I don't want the fucking reaction.

00:25:54I want to see the actual song, please.

00:25:57Thank you very much.

00:25:58Oh my God, dude.

00:25:59This is sickening.

00:26:02- Intelligible.

00:26:03(upbeat rock music)

00:26:06- Yeah, and they got Phil now in the band,

00:26:08who was, I mean, he was in "As Of Late Night"

00:26:10for the longest time, and like,

00:26:12you hear it in that riffing, dude.

00:26:14It's just...

00:26:18- When I heard this guy's vocals come back in,

00:26:20I was like, I'm 19 again.

00:26:22I'm 19 again, I'm 19.

00:26:26I'm at my friend's house.

00:26:28I've got a beer hat on with two straws going into my mouth.

00:26:31I'm playing Guitar Hero.

00:26:32- 'Cause dude, that's how I started guitar.

00:26:34I played, I started by playing Guitar Hero.

00:26:37That was the first thing ever in my introduction,

00:26:38but that's why that era, dude,

00:26:39like between Guitar Hero, MTV, Tony Hawk, Pro Skater,

00:26:44like all these games were influenced so much with music.

00:26:46- The snowboarding games.

00:26:48- Oh, Amped. - Yes.

00:26:49- Amped, massive.

00:26:50- That was where I learned about Static X.

00:26:52- Yep.

00:26:53- Who the fuck else was on that soundtrack?

00:26:55- Dude, there was even like the sports games.

00:26:57The sports, you know, I didn't play many of them,

00:26:59but like the- - Madden.

00:27:00- Madden, yeah, Madden, the, I don't know.

00:27:02- NBA. - Yeah.

00:27:03It was always, 'cause they wanted energy.

00:27:06They wanted energetic music, and right at that moment,

00:27:09that was obviously coming from the alternative

00:27:11and metal scene, whether it was nu metal,

00:27:12whether it was like melodic metal core,

00:27:14whether it was post-hardcore.

00:27:15- Fucking Limp Bizkit did the track

00:27:16for a Mission Impossible movie.

00:27:18- Yeah, dude, that's massive.

00:27:19And like, it was funny, 'cause if you go back then,

00:27:21I was pretty young, but I can remember it being like,

00:27:24oh, nu metal, like, this is stupid.

00:27:25You know, like, you're not a real metal head.

00:27:27Like, you gotta listen to it.

00:27:28- Yeah, I want old metal.

00:27:29- Yeah, I want proper, I want either,

00:27:30and that was a crazy time too, 'cause it was,

00:27:33everyone was fighting of like, well, real metal at that time

00:27:35was still Metallica, you know, Slayer.

00:27:37Like, that is metal.

00:27:38- That was when people had a problem with scene kids.

00:27:40- Yes. - Right.

00:27:41When it was like, it wasn't cool to be seen,

00:27:42but kind of the music's moving in that way,

00:27:44and everyone secretly listens to that music.

00:27:47It's like, I don't want to have the fringe,

00:27:48but I kind of can't not have the fringe.

00:27:50And like, well, fucking Bring Me's crushing it at the moment.

00:27:52So like, I do want to listen to them and they are cool,

00:27:54but like, everybody kind of wants to hate them a little bit.

00:27:56And like, I feel like I should be in the Lamb of God

00:27:58and Megadeth, but there's no melody in there

00:27:59and I don't really get it.

00:28:00I don't really understand what's going on.

00:28:02- It was such a tricky time,

00:28:03but some of the best music ever.

00:28:04And that's why I had a conversation with,

00:28:07I think it was JC from Era or someone from one of the--

00:28:10- Fucking love Era, dude.

00:28:11- Dude, Era is so sick.

00:28:13Where I went back and I was kind of like,

00:28:15dude, like, I don't know if I'm just a boomer now, you know,

00:28:18like I, or if it's, if it's nostalgia bait,

00:28:20but like I go back and listens to these records, you know,

00:28:23like that I grew up with.

00:28:24And I'm like, this is still the best music

00:28:27I think I've ever heard.

00:28:28- What would you, what would you put up that?

00:28:30What do you go back to when you're listening to stuff

00:28:31that's from that era?

00:28:33- So, okay, let's not fire watch or self-titled and crisis.

00:28:36Is that true?

00:28:37If I listen to one, I have to listen to the whole trilogy.

00:28:38- Correct, yeah, yeah.

00:28:39It's like watching the first Lord of the Rings.

00:28:41You're like, I'm locked in until the end.

00:28:42- He throws a fucking ring in Mordor.

00:28:43- Exactly, I'm locked in.

00:28:46Bullet the Poison is so classic because it just,

00:28:49it embodies that youthful time with, again,

00:28:52I don't even care about the lyrics or any of that capacity.

00:28:54It's just the feeling, the vibes of these aggressive riffs,

00:28:57like these, these like emo British kids

00:29:00that are like trying to be as metal as they can,

00:29:02but they're still like kids at that time.

00:29:04But they blended it in a way

00:29:06that embodies that youthfulness so well.

00:29:08- That first architect EP.

00:29:09- That first, yeah, that is, that's when they were math core.

00:29:12- Yeah.

00:29:13- It's very different to now.

00:29:14- Yeah.

00:29:15- I think that Kill Switch as Daylight Dies

00:29:17is a big one for me.

00:29:18Like, oh my goodness.

00:29:21All Our Mains, Fall of Ideals,

00:29:23that was more on the guitar side.

00:29:24- Trae You?

00:29:25- Trae You with the Curse.

00:29:26- Yep.

00:29:27- Yep, that's a big one.

00:29:28- What a fucking era, dude.

00:29:30- It was, nah, stop.

00:29:30- You know, 'cause what I've started to do,

00:29:32we do these vlogs for when I'm on tour,

00:29:34and I was like, I'm always looking,

00:29:36I'm gonna use Seya Sen, that new track is so fucking amazing.

00:29:39We've used Sleep Token, we've used Omens,

00:29:41we've used a bunch of bands,

00:29:42'cause it's cool, we have a playlist for the show

00:29:44that's not a podcast, which is just my music,

00:29:46which is just like all of his metal core stuff.

00:29:49But I was thinking, I wanna do something a bit different.

00:29:52So the most recent vlog that we just put out

00:29:55was Taken Back Sunday, A Decade Under the Influence,

00:29:59and The Used.

00:30:00- The Used.

00:30:01- And I was like, what?

00:30:03That whole era as well, for me,

00:30:06reintroducing people now to that music,

00:30:09'cause it's, as far as I can see,

00:30:10and maybe this is just what my dad felt like

00:30:13when I was 10 and he was saying, listen to Whitesnake,

00:30:16and I was like, I don't get it, Dad.

00:30:18I don't know if I can take someone who listens to,

00:30:20who's got used to the production quality of Omens

00:30:23and Sleep Token and introduce them

00:30:27to like Dashboard Confessional or Hawthorne Heights.

00:30:31- It's a hard transition, and that's where,

00:30:35I think it depends, some of those records, particularly,

00:30:38like I would say the transit, like obviously Bring Me,

00:30:41with them redoing Count Your Blessings.

00:30:43It's funny, I think that's gonna be,

00:30:45like they defined a generation with the--

00:30:47- Are they gonna try and redefine a generation

00:30:49with the same songs?

00:30:49- I think they're gonna literally do that,

00:30:51because there's already been the movement

00:30:52of like reintroducing 2000 Death Corps.

00:30:54Like there's this band, Reverand.

00:30:56Psycho Frame is probably, I would say,

00:30:57this band that does it the best,

00:30:59where like, if you like the cleansing by Suicide Silence,

00:31:02you'll like that.

00:31:03They basically took that kind of sound,

00:31:06and they're like, okay, let's do it our way

00:31:07in a way that's modern and just ace it.

00:31:09And like, that's a band that absolutely kills it.

00:31:12And there's a few other bands kind of revolved around there

00:31:14where, you know, they have the snare

00:31:16that sounds like a trash can, you know?

00:31:17Like the-- - Bonk.

00:31:18- Yeah, the old school Saint Anger snare,

00:31:21which Death Corps then stole.

00:31:23They have the 808s that literally make your speakers

00:31:26actually explode, not like kind of like,

00:31:29ah, it's clipping a little bit.

00:31:30No, like the intent is that it clips so hard

00:31:33that the rest of the 10 seconds of music following it

00:31:36is quiet because it's ducking and so compressed

00:31:40that it's so funny to listen to

00:31:42with just nonstop breeze and all of this.

00:31:45So that's something which is really exciting to see.

00:31:47And that's why I do think, like, a band like Bring Me,

00:31:49who, you know, they're like, I love that trajectory

00:31:52of we're Death Corps, we're the most, you know,

00:31:53one of the most extreme things we could be at that time,

00:31:56right, obviously there's like Death Metal and Tech Death

00:31:58and Black Metal and all that stuff,

00:31:58and all these like extreme, extreme genres

00:32:01that are more old school and less modern with the core,

00:32:04you know, at the back of it.

00:32:06And let's go through, all right, we did Death Corps,

00:32:08we did Metal Corps,

00:32:09then we did kind of alternative rock, metal,

00:32:12and then we did literally a pop record with ammo.

00:32:15And then we kind of dabbled a little of New Metal's

00:32:16post-human and then Emo Corps.

00:32:19And now let's go back to Death Corps.

00:32:20You know, it's like a band that's gotten that big

00:32:22off that trajectory.

00:32:23There's not, I don't see another band that says,

00:32:25hey, we started Death Corps, made a pop record,

00:32:27and now we're making Death Corps music again.

00:32:29Like that does not happen, you know, 'cause that's-

00:32:31Ollie's the fucking man.

00:32:32Dude, I've been friends with him for maybe like 12 years now.

00:32:36Jordan joined the band, he had a problem with Ableton.

00:32:39I tweeted him about it.

00:32:40They needed to go out in Newcastle

00:32:41when they were playing a gig.

00:32:42So I saw them play Newcastle University,

00:32:45and it must've been to 750 people.

00:32:48This was pretty, after Jordan joined.

00:32:51So not that like early in the band's trajectory,

00:32:54but still they would just about play,

00:32:56they played the O2 Academy the next time

00:32:57they came back around.

00:32:58Did they drop sound paternal yet?

00:32:59No, this would have been before that.

00:33:01Okay, 'cause that I know, that was like the, whoa.

00:33:04When was that the spirit?

00:33:05Was that before sound paternal?

00:33:06After, that was 2015.

00:33:07But so it would have been Count Your Blessings.

00:33:11Then what was the one that they did the dubstep remix of

00:33:14with the girl holding her guts?

00:33:16There was Count Your Blessings.

00:33:18That was Suicide Season.

00:33:19Suicide Season, and then There's a Hell was after that.

00:33:21Right, okay, so it was around about that time.

00:33:22Anyway, so I go out and I hang out with the boys,

00:33:25and I've just like kept in touch with them

00:33:27throughout all of the stuff that they've gone through,

00:33:29and like during COVID, Matt had a fucking shoulder issue.

00:33:32So I'm on FaceTime to him,

00:33:33like trying to explain how to do external rotation.

00:33:36Like just little cute things,

00:33:38but to see guys that you know,

00:33:41just be really fucking brave at following,

00:33:44we're gonna not be constrained by what is even popular.

00:33:49What was that?

00:33:50They did a lo-fi release.

00:33:51They were, all of the songs were like just file names,

00:33:55like stupid file names and stuff.

00:33:56Like we literally don't care.

00:33:58We'll do a collaboration with MGK and Travis Barker.

00:34:00Like there's no limits at all.

00:34:02I think that's really cool.

00:34:03- Yeah, well, they're one of those bands,

00:34:05which everyone, you know, not everyone,

00:34:07but a lot of people in the modern metal scene are like,

00:34:08oh, what did they just do?

00:34:09Okay, let's do that.

00:34:10You know, and it's just,

00:34:11they kind of did the trend setting for a long time,

00:34:13especially I think After Cent Paternal.

00:34:15That was the big one of like,

00:34:16okay, wow, every band now has production and synths,

00:34:19and the weird eight,

00:34:20the only nerdy ass guitarist will understand this,

00:34:22but like 8503/88504 chord progressions

00:34:27kind of get integrated into this stuff now

00:34:29where you hear that like very major sound,

00:34:31but it's dark and frigid and all that shit.

00:34:33And you're like, oh, okay.

00:34:34Like, thank you, bring me, you know what I mean?

00:34:35Again, not the first band to do these things,

00:34:37but the band that made it massive

00:34:40so all these other bands could come along and be like,

00:34:42oh, you made it work because this wasn't supposed to work.

00:34:46- Just because you can do it

00:34:47doesn't mean that you put it in a record

00:34:49because the point isn't to be able to do it.

00:34:51The point is for it to be done and it be popular.

00:34:53And it takes someone, so I was listening to,

00:34:56you know Cody Rhodes is the WWE guy with the blonde hair.

00:34:58- I don't, I don't.

00:34:59- Okay, so I don't watch WWE much,

00:35:01but I was listening to this part

00:35:02and it was really fucking interesting.

00:35:03And he was saying that it doesn't matter who did it first.

00:35:07It matters who did it best and who popularized it.

00:35:10So he was talking about Hulk Hogan and he said,

00:35:12Hulk Hogan did the power up thing.

00:35:15So he's kind of losing a fight

00:35:17and then someone hits him and he shakes it off.

00:35:20And then they hit him again.

00:35:21He shakes it off and he hit him again.

00:35:21And then he turns the fight around and he wins.

00:35:24Nine wrestlers had done that before Hulk Hogan.

00:35:28Also the finger thing, like the finger point

00:35:30that was kind of classically owned by Hulk Hogan.

00:35:33He stole that from a ton of other people

00:35:35that had done it before,

00:35:37but they hadn't done it to the point

00:35:38where they got saturation and popularity and owned it.

00:35:41And it's kind of not too dissimilar with this

00:35:44'cause architects with doomsday,

00:35:45like there's a fucking wonderful line I love,

00:35:48which is originality is just undetected plagiarism.

00:35:52- Oh dude, nothing is new anymore.

00:35:53- Yeah, technically. - Sam will say himself.

00:35:55He's, oh, well, yeah, dude,

00:35:56you know, he's listening to this thing or that.

00:35:57I mean, listen to Jordan Fish, like Jordan's fucking inspo.

00:36:00There's so much of the shit that he did.

00:36:02He's like coming from weird video games

00:36:04and like watching cyberpunk stuff and all, you know,

00:36:06real crazy out there stuff.

00:36:07And you go, okay, so it wasn't original,

00:36:09but you were the first one to do that thing well,

00:36:12popularly in this genre.

00:36:15And once that's done,

00:36:16like how many people are trying to recreate

00:36:18the cum metal, like rap?

00:36:20- That should never have been a type of thing.

00:36:22- Cum metal, I think cum metal is a perfect descriptor

00:36:24for what bad omens and token are.

00:36:26- You know that- - Baddiecore.

00:36:28- What is it? Baddiecore. - Baddiecore.

00:36:29It's more sophisticated.

00:36:30(laughing)

00:36:32Yeah, there you go.

00:36:33- What's the sound of this?

00:36:35- That's, it's vibes.

00:36:37It's night drive vibes, dude.

00:36:39- Correct.

00:36:39- Yeah, there you go, with the windows down,

00:36:41the easy breeze, you know, you're just like chilling.

00:36:43But yeah, that one is, oh, it's, nothing is new anyway.

00:36:48And that's the crazy thing with music

00:36:50'cause I think a lot of bands try, you know,

00:36:54I think have accepted that to a capacity.

00:36:56And you know, you can't do a new chord progression.

00:36:58- Thank you, go on a beer, an AB beer,

00:37:01like a non-alcoholic beer.

00:37:02- Cheers, dude.

00:37:03- All right, cheers, dude.

00:37:04- Like you can't do a new chord progression.

00:37:08I don't think you physically can.

00:37:10I think in terms of music,

00:37:12every single one has ever been done is done.

00:37:14You know what I mean?

00:37:15In terms of a sequence of notes,

00:37:16you can't technically create a new sequence.

00:37:18They've all been done in the history of music.

00:37:20Can you do them at a specific sequence,

00:37:22in a specific key, in a specific BPM,

00:37:25with a specific chord progression under,

00:37:27with a specific groove under that?

00:37:29These are the differentiators that make it more unique.

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00:38:28Does that not mean then, if that's the case,

00:38:31would that not suggest that vocals, lyrics,

00:38:34the kind of things that are most front and center,

00:38:40the songwriting and the lyrics

00:38:41should be the biggest differentiator

00:38:43that people still have now?

00:38:45Is that not the case?

00:38:46- I don't, I mean, it could be, but also,

00:38:49and this is way out of my realm of understanding,

00:38:52you know, I would probably attend more

00:38:53to like understanding human psychology more

00:38:56'cause a lot of the lyrics, particularly in middle two,

00:38:58are very, you know, like damn, shit sucks, you know?

00:39:02And like, why does shit suck?

00:39:03- Life's hard and I wish it wasn't and I'm alone,

00:39:06but maybe there's a bit of hope, but there's probably not.

00:39:08- Yeah, or, and I mean, or telling stories, right?

00:39:11Which, I mean, then that's,

00:39:13that probably takes more of a history degree again

00:39:15than my dumb ass on the internet,

00:39:16figuring that out of like understanding,

00:39:18like I'm sure in history, stories have been retold

00:39:20and retold in different ways and new masks of it.

00:39:23You know what I mean?

00:39:24Where that's why it's like yes or no when it comes to lyrics

00:39:27'cause I think they're still running into that same problem.

00:39:28You can only use so many words.

00:39:30I mean, you can also saturate words like the undertone,

00:39:34my God, band, stop using that fucking word, right?

00:39:36Like, you know, I'm stuck in the undertone.

00:39:37Like there is, or call outs and shit like this

00:39:39where like there's so many-

00:39:42- Cliche. - Cliche lines.

00:39:43Exactly that like, yeah, we can avoid that,

00:39:46but in terms of thematically, you know,

00:39:50or using the particular words to describe a feeling

00:39:53and emotion that's the theme of the song.

00:39:54I mean, that's something that's so tricky

00:39:56and hard to find, again, uniquely, but that's why,

00:40:00because there's so many elements of a song, right?

00:40:02There's lyrics, there's the vocals,

00:40:04there's the types of cadence.

00:40:05You know, you can have a song that everything is the same

00:40:09in terms of the lyrics, the concept of the theme,

00:40:11the groove, the BPM, the melodies.

00:40:14And you can have one do a deathcore version

00:40:15and one do a country version, you know what I mean?

00:40:18And you can, technically that would be a cover

00:40:20because they're so similar, right?

00:40:21But at the same time to a listener,

00:40:23a lot of people would not even know they're the same song.

00:40:26- Sonically, they don't sound anything like that.

00:40:27- Exactly, right?

00:40:28Even though conceptually on paper,

00:40:30you have all the things written down

00:40:32and that's why I see things happening in the scene sometimes

00:40:34of like, this band copy, this band, this band copy, this band.

00:40:37I'm like, yeah, you know, but like under what factors?

00:40:41You know what I mean?

00:40:42Like there's so many elements and variables.

00:40:44Like what defines that?

00:40:45You know, I'm not making the copyright laws,

00:40:47that's for sure.

00:40:48My YouTube channel says I'm not, you know what I mean?

00:40:50With how many claims I get.

00:40:51So it's like in terms of making music

00:40:54and how similar it is to something else

00:40:56and it being considered like new, at what point?

00:41:00Like if the melody is the same

00:41:02and the lyrics are almost like 90%, I don't know,

00:41:05based on fucking chat, GPT are the same or this,

00:41:09but like you're three BPM faster, like is this,

00:41:12you know what I mean?

00:41:13- How different enough is different enough?

00:41:14- Yeah, and then that's something that's really tricky

00:41:16and when we start to get into like the grassroots of that,

00:41:18that's when it's just like--

00:41:19- Well, Ed Sheeran had that big pull up, right?

00:41:21Maybe a few years ago where he's like, look,

00:41:23I can play every big hit from the last 50 years

00:41:26on like these few chords.

00:41:28- Yes.

00:41:29- And yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen much,

00:41:31at least coming out of metalcore,

00:41:33I haven't seen much by the way of beef from this band,

00:41:37took from this band, took from this band.

00:41:39I think maybe because it's so small,

00:41:41the scene is sufficiently small

00:41:43that the likelihood of you encountering them at Rockville

00:41:46or at fucking download or something is,

00:41:49there's not enough bands to go around, you know?

00:41:52So it's like podcast partners with what we do.

00:41:56If you get to a certain level,

00:41:58there's only a handful of partners that have the money

00:42:02to be able to sponsor shows of a certain size.

00:42:04That means that you can't piss them off, right?

00:42:07You can't because either word will get around

00:42:10and or you need them at some point.

00:42:12I'm gonna be the equivalent of a supporting band

00:42:15or headlining with a part,

00:42:17I'm gonna be at some fucking conference somewhere

00:42:19or whatever, like need someone to loop me in

00:42:22with the guy from Ate Sleep

00:42:23or the dude that does fucking better help or whatever.

00:42:25Like it's the same thing.

00:42:27- Yeah, the scene is very big and small at the same time.

00:42:31And that's kind of for me, again, a person,

00:42:32like I'm not in a touring band,

00:42:33I'm not part of that specific segment of that world,

00:42:37even though I work with all the bands.

00:42:39I, you know, in terms of the label industry side,

00:42:42like I work with them in the back end in terms of like,

00:42:43hey, you know, at least back then they would be like,

00:42:46hey, we got this coming out, you know?

00:42:47So I was very in tuned always with like PR

00:42:48and like then being like,

00:42:50hey, we got these releases coming up.

00:42:51Hey, do you want this person on your show to shoot the shit?

00:42:54Or, you know what I mean?

00:42:54Do you want to do some kind of content and whatnot?

00:42:57So that's my knowledge base of that.

00:42:59But in terms of even just that circle

00:43:01and talking to people, like everyone kind of knows everybody.

00:43:05So if you're a dick, it's really obvious.

00:43:07Just don't be a dick to people

00:43:09and then you'll usually be fine.

00:43:10And obviously part of that is you trying not to copy paste

00:43:13someone's song session,

00:43:14'cause it can be very like super obvious.

00:43:17- The other way through that

00:43:19is to almost make being a dick your brand,

00:43:21which is what Ronnie Radke does.

00:43:22- There's a few people that I think have done that

00:43:25so successfully and mad kudos.

00:43:28They, you know, they do it to a point where it's like,

00:43:30damn, like to be consistent at doing that is like exhausting.

00:43:33So if you can pull that off, holy shit.

00:43:34- It's almost like, do you know what it is?

00:43:36And I think he's fucking fascinating.

00:43:38Ronnie's going to come on the show soon,

00:43:39which is going to be cool.

00:43:39Like it's basically like being the heel

00:43:43in wrestling a little bit.

00:43:44Like the heel can have the belt.

00:43:47He can be the best in the world at a thing,

00:43:49but also it's kind of happy to be the person.

00:43:52What's your job?

00:43:53Oh, my job's to piss everyone off.

00:43:55Like my job is to give zero fucks

00:43:56and to just piss everybody off.

00:43:58- Yeah, that's a few bands, I think.

00:44:01I think particularly during like the MySpace/Warp Tour days,

00:44:05that was like a thing to do.

00:44:07Like, let's go try, like be the extreme band.

00:44:09Like let's go piss people off.

00:44:10Like fuck you, we're rock stars.

00:44:12You know what I mean?

00:44:12- Have you ever seen the video of when Bring Me did,

00:44:16was it the Brit Awards and Oli stood on Coldplay,

00:44:20Chris Marlin's table and kicked his like champagne

00:44:23off and stuff.

00:44:24And that was huge beef.

00:44:25And I remember thinking at the time, never in my life,

00:44:29did I assume that I would be seeing Oli Sykes

00:44:32and Chris fucking Martin from Coldplay

00:44:35having beef with each other.

00:44:36- Every, a lot of people know each,

00:44:37and that's why it's like, I think it is somewhat segmented

00:44:40in terms of like, okay, you're a metal band

00:44:42or you're a poppers, but like a lot of it,

00:44:43there's so much overlap.

00:44:44I mean, a lot of people have the same, I mean,

00:44:46labels to a capacity.

00:44:49The metal ones are usually like on the smaller ones,

00:44:50you know, subsets, but like, you know, PR,

00:44:53a lot of them have similar booking agents and stuff like that.

00:44:56So like there's overlap always.

00:44:57And it's, and a lot of also the top 50, the metal,

00:45:00the, you know, even country artists are like,

00:45:02they're metal heads.

00:45:03They grew up listening to-

00:45:04- All of their band are made up of metal heads.

00:45:06- Yes, all the touring musicians are always seeing kids.

00:45:09And that's really funny.

00:45:10I had, I chatted with Johnny from Bill Murray

00:45:13and 'cause I was like, how, you know,

00:45:15I've never been in Nashville.

00:45:15Like how was it in Nashville?

00:45:16I know that's the country place,

00:45:17but also a lot of metal heads are there.

00:45:18And he, and he was also mentioning like, dude, yeah,

00:45:21like everyone's a metal hood.

00:45:22Like even if they write country,

00:45:23it doesn't matter this or that.

00:45:24Like everyone just is, they're hardcore dudes.

00:45:27They're from the scene, they're seeing kids,

00:45:28like whatever it might be.

00:45:29They all love that music, which is really cool.

00:45:32It's, it's cool to see, because again,

00:45:34if you were to listen to the music, you're like, that's,

00:45:37that is different than Breeze and-

00:45:38- Technically proficient the way.

00:45:39- Yeah.

00:45:40- Like technically proficient,

00:45:41which I think that lineage allows you

00:45:43to then become really successful.

00:45:45Like if you can play good metal,

00:45:49you can probably end up playing most other things.

00:45:51Cause most of the things are going to be not derivative,

00:45:53but at least like less complex than most of them.

00:45:56- Especially nowadays, because,

00:45:57because modern metal is so focused on production

00:46:00and songwriting, I guess, to a capacity,

00:46:03depending on which subset.

00:46:05Cause there's a subset of obviously, like I said,

00:46:07death metal tech, death, all that stuff.

00:46:08That's, that's still death metal.

00:46:09That's riff first, you know, figure everything else out.

00:46:12Like the drummer is going 500 BPM or however fucking fast

00:46:14he wants to go on the double kicks.

00:46:16And they're figuring that out, right.

00:46:17And it's super sick and it creates this very extreme,

00:46:20brutal, intense music,

00:46:22which doesn't have necessarily a lot of production.

00:46:24You know, there's, there's not a synth layer

00:46:26in the background and that's like, whoa, what?

00:46:28You know, meanwhile now with the particular

00:46:31modern metal bands, it's like you record guitar

00:46:34and you have the MIDI ready to put the synth to it.

00:46:37Like there's no question.

00:46:38If you're going to have synth layered in,

00:46:41the producer is going to just do it for you.

00:46:43If you didn't think of it anyways.

00:46:45And then there's going to be usually quad tracks.

00:46:47There's going to be four guitar tracks, just deal with it.

00:46:49You know what I mean?

00:46:50The drums, you want those raw drums, buddy?

00:46:52Okay, sure.

00:46:53Go record the raw drums.

00:46:54We'll, yeah, it's all raw.

00:46:56Okay. You know, we'll figure it out later.

00:46:57Meanwhile, you know, the producer was like, yeah, okay.

00:46:59Obviously you guys.

00:47:00- Molesting everything.

00:47:01- Yeah, because like.

00:47:02- Can you explain to me?

00:47:03I heard this story about the drummer from Slipknot

00:47:07just got a relatively new drummer to Slipknot,

00:47:10which has kind of given them a fresh breeze of light.

00:47:14What's the story there?

00:47:15Cause I only know half of it.

00:47:17- I don't know the backend story.

00:47:19I just know they, I mean,

00:47:20obviously they had Joey way back when, the legendary.

00:47:22And then they had Jay for quite some time.

00:47:24And then I don't know, a falling out or something.

00:47:27It's the usual PR stuff of like.

00:47:30- Creative differences.

00:47:31- Yeah, man.

00:47:32And that's why when you see that, you're just like, okay.

00:47:34You know, you kind of move along again.

00:47:35I don't know any of those guys personally.

00:47:37So that's why I just, and same thing.

00:47:38Most fans just go, oh, no, that sucks.

00:47:41And then they got Eloy who was super sick.

00:47:44He was in a Sepulcher if I'm not mistaken.

00:47:45And yeah, he's a bad-ass drummer.

00:47:48And then, you know, people are stoked on that.

00:47:49And I don't think they've released music

00:47:51with him yet or anything.

00:47:53- I've seen some of the videos of it happening live though.

00:47:55- Which is.

00:47:56- He's a beast.

00:47:57- Some of the most insane shit.

00:47:59- He's a beast.

00:47:59And that's why like that music back then,

00:48:02it's so aggressive and primal.

00:48:04That do that 2000s era.

00:48:05Cause there was so much happening.

00:48:06You know, we're talking obviously about like the,

00:48:08the emo stuff and then the metal core stuff.

00:48:10But that new metal phase that broke through the barrier,

00:48:13I think bigger than any of the other kind of metal bands

00:48:15at that time.

00:48:16Like the Slipknots, the Lincoln Parks,

00:48:17the System of a Down.

00:48:19You know, the fact that kids grow up now

00:48:20and they're like, I don't know, 10 or whatever.

00:48:22And you see like, my favorite song's Chop Suey.

00:48:25It's like, first of all, you're probably too young to,

00:48:28for that to be your favorite song.

00:48:29You know, like for the lyrical context of that.

00:48:32But number two, how the fuck did you find that song?

00:48:34Because I found that when I was 10.

00:48:36You know what I mean?

00:48:37Like, that's crazy.

00:48:38- Let's watch some of those videos.

00:48:39Jerry, can I have the screen?

00:48:40- Oh, it's nostalgic.

00:48:40Let's go.

00:48:41- I need to, I want to watch some of the live stuff

00:48:43of the new Slipknot.

00:48:46- This is eight months ago, this is about right.

00:48:48- Yeah.

00:48:49- He's also built like an absolute fucking brick shit house.

00:48:53- Yeah, I think for extreme drumming,

00:48:55like that should be a requirement nowadays.

00:48:58It's such a physical thing.

00:49:01You know, guitarists, we sit there,

00:49:02you fucking strum a chord, you strum breakdowns.

00:49:04- You can be as weenie as you want.

00:49:05- You can be as weenie as you want, exactly.

00:49:07But like drums, I mean, unless it's all a backtrack,

00:49:10you can't be weenie.

00:49:12You got some beef to it.

00:49:17- Yeah, that's probably, that's...

00:49:19- Imagine taking a drumstick to the face from that guy, man.

00:49:25Holy shit.

00:49:27- Dude, if only I could be that stare.

00:49:28- I know.

00:49:29No, thank you.

00:49:32But even with this, that's some sequencing going on

00:49:37down the bottom, eh?

00:49:38Like some pads, some something here.

00:49:40- Yeah, I'd imagine, I mean, most bands probably,

00:49:43they have usually the laptop because with the satin

00:49:45or whatever or something.

00:49:46- But there's something, maybe like drum pads,

00:49:48whatever this is, straight in front of us.

00:49:49- Yeah.

00:49:50- Yeah, just freakish, dude.

00:49:53And it's, I don't know, it's just cool

00:49:54that you've got someone who has kind of brought new eyes

00:49:59to a band that's been around for so long.

00:50:03- Dude, Slipknots, oh man, it's, is it 30 years?

00:50:0790, no, okay, 99 was self-titled.

00:50:10I don't know when the EP was.

00:50:11Eat, mate, feed, repeat, whatever the fuck the EP was called

00:50:15with the first singer.

00:50:17They've been a band for like 30 years.

00:50:20That is psycho.

00:50:21That's like, how long has Killswitch been around?

00:50:23Oh my goodness.

00:50:26I don't know when they technically,

00:50:28'cause it's always weird.

00:50:29The album is not when the bands usually start.

00:50:31Usually they grind for five years in local shows

00:50:33and like their parents' garage, so like when they're four.

00:50:37Alive and Just Breathing was 2000, oh my God, two, one.

00:50:44Either two, either one, two, three, or four.

00:50:46No, End of Heartache was 2004.

00:50:48As Daylight Dies was 2006.

00:50:51I think it was 2002 around there.

00:50:53Old, old, but they wouldn't,

00:50:56they're consistent, they've been going at it,

00:50:57and they're timeless.

00:50:58When you make bangers like that,

00:50:59it's something that's so special.

00:51:00- Kanye West, dude.

00:51:01Kanye West, if you make bangers, you can keep on doing it.

00:51:04- You can keep on doing it.

00:51:05- Metal's sort of becoming increasingly self-aware

00:51:08and ironic, I think, especially in its positioning,

00:51:10the way the sort of people put it across.

00:51:12What do you, why do you think that's happening?

00:51:14What's that say about the audience, the industry, the music?

00:51:17- I think it has to do with a lot of things

00:51:20we've actually talked about so far.

00:51:21It's like, there's a lot of nostalgia built in

00:51:24with the new modern age of people going back

00:51:26and being like excited about that.

00:51:28So when they also look back,

00:51:29I think that's part of the irony and somewhat of the joke,

00:51:32because back then, a lot of the metal was so like random

00:51:36and like kids in their garage, like Job for a Cowboy,

00:51:38or like, especially during the Myspace days,

00:51:40when like the song titles were like,

00:51:42tell Jimmy to get the fuck out of the garage

00:51:44or like, whatever it is, you know what I mean?

00:51:45Like, it's, they're just such random names back then,

00:51:49where that, for that, you know, these bands weren't thinking.

00:51:52I think a lot of these bands also were like,

00:51:53well, we're not going to be a big band.

00:51:55You know, people don't have to remember these names.

00:51:57They don't have to remember these, these breakdown melodies,

00:52:00these, these sound clips, these, you know, vocal moments,

00:52:03like who's, you know, we're going to be playing

00:52:05to our few fans that like us and we're happy with that.

00:52:07So I think part of that modern day of, of embracing that

00:52:12is revisiting that era because it was so raw like that

00:52:17and kind of making the joke about it again,

00:52:20in a very odd way.

00:52:23- You almost parody yourself.

00:52:24- You're kind of parodying yourself,

00:52:25but then also how the industry has evolved in a way

00:52:30where there's a lot of particular ways to do modern music,

00:52:35even though, funny enough, it's more genre fluid than ever.

00:52:39I would say in terms of like, I get you listen

00:52:41to like a Sleep Token and they have a black metal part

00:52:43with like a pop song.

00:52:44Like that's, that's cool.

00:52:45That's crazy.

00:52:46But it still comes down to you got to have good songwriting

00:52:48or like no one's going to care after the first initial

00:52:50like TikTok that goes.

00:52:51- Oh, that's interesting.

00:52:52- Yeah. - That's different.

00:52:53- Yeah. Oh, that's, that's cool.

00:52:54Okay. Like not, if you don't add it to the playlist,

00:52:56no one, it's gone, right?

00:52:57Like it's, it's in the abyss and then it's like, okay.

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00:54:04- It is interesting if you look at,

00:54:06like Token's a good example of this.

00:54:08The Summoning is their most played track, I think.

00:54:10- Oh yeah, I remember that moment.

00:54:11- But that breaking through,

00:54:14like what makes a song, especially a metal song,

00:54:16break through to that kind of a level

00:54:19versus this is a fucking awesome song.

00:54:22Like "Caramel" is one of the most catchy songs

00:54:25that I've ever heard.

00:54:27But it doesn't look like it's gonna get

00:54:30to the level of the Summoning.

00:54:31Okay, what is that?

00:54:33Is it the distribution?

00:54:35Is it the repeat listenability?

00:54:37Is it constantly bringing in new people

00:54:40or is it just rinsing the living shit

00:54:42out of the playlist of the ones that let,

00:54:43you know what I mean?

00:54:44I always look at the top songs of a band

00:54:47and think, huh, why that one?

00:54:49What about that one?

00:54:50- I think, 'cause I was around for that moment, particularly.

00:54:54'Cause I felt, you know, I listened to Sleep Token

00:54:56when they were the underground band.

00:54:58'Cause this always happens with these bands.

00:54:59They're the underground band that you see in Reddit,

00:55:01you know, subreddits of like,

00:55:02you guys hear this band or see this band live?

00:55:04They just play it to like 50 people.

00:55:05They're really sick.

00:55:06You know, I really like this record.

00:55:08You know what I mean?

00:55:09Like, oh, that's cool.

00:55:10You listen to like the offering.

00:55:12You heard the offering?

00:55:13Dude, this is so cool and like different.

00:55:14It's got piano.

00:55:15And like, you know, you can tell like it's kind of pop

00:55:18mixed with like Meshuggah and shit.

00:55:20And like, that's sick, right?

00:55:21And then the reach reaches this point.

00:55:24And I see this has happened

00:55:25with multiple of these modern metal bands

00:55:29where they have a really good catalog.

00:55:32And that's the smartest thing I've seen those bands do

00:55:33with upside point.

00:55:34Like they just, they're consistent.

00:55:35Make bangers.

00:55:36Don't just chase a trend or do this.

00:55:38Like for every songs of bangers,

00:55:40even though there's not that many people listening,

00:55:42those people are very, very happy, right?

00:55:45So these bands nowadays making a good catalog of bangers,

00:55:49grinding, and then there's a moment.

00:55:53And then that moment has to coincide usually

00:55:56with another huge banger, one of their best bangers.

00:55:59So that's a band where they were having the momentum

00:56:02for when I saw, again,

00:56:03I didn't get into them when they did the EP,

00:56:04but I started to get into them

00:56:05when they did like the offering, that album,

00:56:07and then the album after that.

00:56:09Something about tomb is where you fucking, the long-

00:56:12- This place will become your tomb.

00:56:12- Thank you, yeah.

00:56:13This place will become your tomb.

00:56:14And so even Alkaline.

00:56:16And I actually thought they were about to explode

00:56:18with that song 'cause I heard that was like-

00:56:20- It's got everything.

00:56:21- It's got everything.

00:56:21This is sick.

00:56:22Like, okay, do the thing.

00:56:23'Cause the offering, I already saw all that stuff happening.

00:56:25And then Alkaline was like, oh, cool.

00:56:27But there wasn't a moment around it.

00:56:29It was just, oh, another really sick banger.

00:56:31And now this band's a little bit more hype,

00:56:33kind of like grinding their,

00:56:34I'm going to use nerdy-ass gaming terms.

00:56:36Like you're ELO, like you're ranking like really slowly,

00:56:39but consistently, you're not losing any matches.

00:56:41But the rate at which you're gaining points in MMR

00:56:43is kind of like at a particular pace.

00:56:45You're not going to all of a sudden shoot up

00:56:46unless something happens.

00:56:48So they had all this built up hype with the underground,

00:56:50I think kind of like being like, this is great.

00:56:53And that's where the band was underground.

00:56:56And then they dropped the summoning.

00:56:58And because it had a moment in it

00:57:00and the song was really good

00:57:02and the band had this massive catalog

00:57:05and then the internet took notice.

00:57:08It was just, it was the perfect storm.

00:57:09- How much do you think that can be engineered?

00:57:12- I think it can be pretty engineered.

00:57:14It's something where I don't think you can engineer

00:57:16making the bangers part of it, right?

00:57:18That's be good.

00:57:19Don't fucking suck.

00:57:20And that's something a lot of bands,

00:57:22I think are starting to take a lot more seriously

00:57:24and not just be like, well, let's just chase the trend

00:57:26and whatever works with the gimmicks, right?

00:57:28Make a banger.

00:57:29And that's, I love that.

00:57:30That's number one, right?

00:57:31That you can engineer.

00:57:32Make a banger, don't suck, right?

00:57:34The other stuff I think you can engineer to a point,

00:57:37especially in modern day with the internet.

00:57:40You know, again, I haven't seen it happen myself.

00:57:43- You're giving me the eyes of someone

00:57:45that fucking knows way too much.

00:57:47- This is the thing.

00:57:48I know enough not to a point of talking

00:57:50with a bunch of people and someone being like,

00:57:52yeah, I did this.

00:57:52We caused this exact way, but in terms of seeing it

00:57:55from the sidelines of a music listener

00:57:57and understanding it and also understanding the industry

00:58:00and how social media works as a content creator, right?

00:58:02- How come so many of these different accounts

00:58:04seeded that rumor about that record coming out

00:58:08at that time on different, I wonder if these are-

00:58:12- Again, where I don't actually have zero backend knowledge

00:58:14of that, but you see that and you're like,

00:58:16I see what you're doing.

00:58:17- Something's happening.

00:58:18- Like that's cool, but this is before it was cool

00:58:21to do maybe something like that.

00:58:22- Yeah, it's cool too, right?

00:58:23Now it's like, Reddit is something taken seriously

00:58:27by the scene.

00:58:28I'm not surprised if people post Reddit posts

00:58:30of their brand new band and it's like the label

00:58:32actually getting a new account or something

00:58:34where they're posting a bunch of, or clip farming with that.

00:58:37You know what I mean?

00:58:37And trying to find clips that make that big

00:58:39where it's just some random clip guy they found in Europe

00:58:42that they paid like 20 bucks.

00:58:44- It's just an army of Vietnamese repurposes.

00:58:46- Yes, right?

00:58:47And that's something where I,

00:58:49that's going to happen more and more.

00:58:50That happens a lot in your content.

00:58:52- Jared, give me the screen.

00:58:53I want to show you, keep going.

00:58:53I want to show you this geese thing

00:58:54while you're talking about it.

00:58:55- Oh dude, I forgot about the quack, dude.

00:58:57Let's go.

00:58:58- I know, have you heard of geese?

00:58:59- No.

00:59:00- I hadn't, but I'd heard that there was a band called geese.

00:59:02And I thought, oh, that's-

00:59:03- It's Knock Knock Goose, is it?

00:59:04- That's a knocked goose, dude.

00:59:07You could imagine that.

00:59:08I want to use whatever that AI thing is to do-

00:59:12- Tsunno, yeah.

00:59:13- Tsunno, take the band knocked loose

00:59:16and replace all of the members with geese

00:59:19and tell me what that sound is.

00:59:20- See, that's what AI should have been used for.

00:59:23That is the best use of it, for fun.

00:59:27But it has changed.

00:59:28- Okay, the fanfare around the band geese

00:59:31was actually a psyop.

00:59:33TLDR, a tech company that has learned-

00:59:36- On Fantano forever, of course.

00:59:38- The algorithm created the momentum

00:59:40that made geese go viral.

00:59:42Record industry has always done things like this

00:59:44and everything on the internet is fake.

00:59:45This was it, so it's this wide article.

00:59:47The Brooklyn band geese was labeled as an industry plant

00:59:50by those who questioned its sudden ubiquity.

00:59:52Maybe it was.

00:59:54Brooklyn and New York geese shot to the heights

00:59:56of rock and roll fame at the end of 2025.

00:59:59Released in late September, dominated the top 10 lists.

01:00:02Explosion on the scene seemingly out of nowhere

01:00:03led to an inevitable backlash.

01:00:05Haters called them a psyops and questioned

01:00:06their seemingly sudden rise to stardom,

01:00:08calling them an industry plant.

01:00:10Others, while acknowledging their talent,

01:00:12attribute their fame to savvy marketing.

01:00:14The band blows up.

01:00:15In late March, the co-founders of the digital marketing

01:00:19company Chaotic Good Projects, who provide,

01:00:22per its Instagram, digital experiments and musical mayhem

01:00:26appeared on the Billboard's On the Record podcast.

01:00:30In the episode South by Southwest,

01:00:32he explained how viral marketing methods work.

01:00:35Wow, the firm creates networks of social media pages

01:00:37on TikTok and used them to drive the band's music

01:00:39into the recommendation algorithm.

01:00:41Songs are dropped into the backgrounds of videos.

01:00:43Live clips are shared.

01:00:44Sometimes burner accounts, comments,

01:00:45and whole ecosystems of interactions can be fabricated

01:00:48out of digital cloth, stoking and sometimes

01:00:50completely manufacturing discourse around an artist.

01:00:53These ginned up interactions push the songs

01:00:55and the discussion around them, higher up platforms,

01:00:57algorithm rankings, social media platforms

01:00:59increasingly where real fans discover new music.

01:01:02We can drive impressions on anything at this point,

01:01:04Spelman told Billboard.

01:01:06We know how to go viral.

01:01:07We have thousands of pages.

01:01:08Spelman has dubbed the process trend simulation.

01:01:12The campaigns themselves are referred to by Chaotic Good

01:01:16as narrative or UGCV.

01:01:19So confirmed the engineered campaigns

01:01:22for both geese and camera in winter.

01:01:23I don't know who that is.

01:01:24We help distribute clips of them performing

01:01:27and doing some interviews on TikTok, said via email,

01:01:30understand industry plant discourse is inevitable.

01:01:32We've had the pleasure of being geese fans since 2021.

01:01:34Yeah, dude, I mean, this kind of marketing seems

01:01:37to be what it takes to cut through the algorithmic noise.

01:01:40But the problem with this is that you end up

01:01:42with kind of a race to the bottom.

01:01:44It gamifies it.

01:01:45If no matter how good the track is,

01:01:48I can't win unless I do that.

01:01:50That now becomes not a performance enhancer

01:01:53or even a cheeky kind of exploit.

01:01:56It becomes the minimum level of marketing

01:01:59in order for me to get something good out of my track.

01:02:03Yeah, I think the scene,

01:02:05there's such a gamification of it

01:02:07because, again, the metal scene's a little behind,

01:02:11usually the content scene,

01:02:12like the more mainstream scene.

01:02:14That stuff happens in YouTube

01:02:17and the content creator scene for a while.

01:02:20That's something where it's like,

01:02:21oh, okay, that's not necessarily new,

01:02:23like people using clips,

01:02:24or there's people doing burner accounts

01:02:25and stuff like that and promoting.

01:02:26Okay, that's the game.

01:02:29You see these people on these Twitch streamers

01:02:31with 20,000 live concurrent,

01:02:33and you're like, who are you?

01:02:35What is it?

01:02:36- Well, the guy on the CEO of Cake

01:02:38said pretty much every big creator's viewbotting.

01:02:41You saw that clip a little while ago.

01:02:42- Yeah, that's, I mean,

01:02:44I did not know how prevalent that was until now.

01:02:47It's like a thing to talk about,

01:02:49and it's like, oh shit, you know what I mean?

01:02:50But yeah, obviously in the content scene,

01:02:52that's something it's like, all right, dude, I don't know.

01:02:55I grew up in good old 2014 YouTube

01:02:57where PewDiePie was doing dumb shit in Sweden and stuff,

01:03:01and watching that and getting inspired by the OGs.

01:03:04And now all of this stuff has been gamified so much

01:03:07because there's so much monetization ways,

01:03:11and there's so many just reasons that these bands

01:03:16want to figure it out, break through the holes.

01:03:19- With incentives, right?

01:03:20- Right, incentives.

01:03:20And with stuff like that, again,

01:03:22I haven't noticed, that's so funny.

01:03:27The band's name is Geese.

01:03:27That's one where it's like, yeah, that can happen.

01:03:30You know what I mean?

01:03:31Where if, again, a label just knows what they're doing

01:03:34in a particular way, and they just want to push it.

01:03:36- Well, look, I fucking adore them.

01:03:38They're probably my favorite band

01:03:39over the last 12 or 18 months.

01:03:42But President had an unusually large launch

01:03:45off the back of being on Future History

01:03:47and riding the anonymous, pseudonymous mask,

01:03:52sleep token thing in a not too dissimilar sound

01:03:55that's really of the moment and is fucking great.

01:03:57And their songs are straight bangers.

01:03:59I don't know, I haven't listened to Knocked Geese.

01:04:01(laughing)

01:04:02- I don't think there's a band.

01:04:03- Locked Geese, I haven't listened to them.

01:04:05- With President though, that's the thing.

01:04:06And they're like the epitome of you go on Twitter now

01:04:08and you'll see a new President song

01:04:10and then you'll see people say Industry Plant.

01:04:12And that's where it's tricky because stuff

01:04:14like the geese thing maybe happened and it's like,

01:04:16oh, okay, shit, I guess that's going

01:04:18if that's what happened, right?

01:04:20But a band like President, if you bring it down,

01:04:22okay, it's a guy who was in all their really big band.

01:04:25- Lots of other really big bands for a long time.

01:04:28- For a long time, I use gaming references a decent amount

01:04:31to kind of explain stuff.

01:04:32It's like, okay, so he has max characters.

01:04:35Maybe then I have the best gear.

01:04:36And he rolled an alt and knew exactly

01:04:38how to get all the gear.

01:04:39Okay, when I see that, I'm like the guy,

01:04:42they know what they're doing, you know what I mean?

01:04:44- Well, think about exactly what we're talking about here.

01:04:46I don't know how good Geese's music is.

01:04:49It's still strange referring to those geese.

01:04:50I don't know how good their music is,

01:04:51but that was their fourth album.

01:04:53And this one is the one that said you're an industry plant.

01:04:55You go, well, is it that

01:04:56or is it just really fucking good money?

01:04:58Guerrilla marketing on a ground floor.

01:05:00What's the difference between doing that

01:05:02and a flyer campaign?

01:05:04Where you're giving out an interesting flyer

01:05:05or fake $1 bills that have got the band's QR code on them

01:05:10or something that you can redeem.

01:05:12You know, a classic old school marketing campaign.

01:05:14That just seems like people are always gonna feel

01:05:19slightly uncertain and a bit icky

01:05:22about somebody getting something

01:05:24that they don't feel is deserved.

01:05:26- Yeah, I think in the metal scene,

01:05:27it's particularly tricky because the metal fans are hardcore.

01:05:31Like they're, they support,

01:05:33I think harder than majority of any other scenes.

01:05:35And that's amazing.

01:05:36It's really cool to see in a scene where like,

01:05:38if you're a metal fan of a band and they're smaller,

01:05:40most of the time, if they're in your town,

01:05:42you will go take the trip to the show.

01:05:44You will go buy merch.

01:05:45You will actually buy the CD,

01:05:47even though you have Spotify or iTunes.

01:05:49You know what I mean?

01:05:50Like it's something that's cool to see in that scene.

01:05:52So I think a lot of metal fans are more,

01:05:55are more invested in like the actual band.

01:05:59And it means a lot more to them than just like,

01:06:01oh, another like, you know, pop record or rap record.

01:06:03You know what I mean?

01:06:04- This is going to be a part of my life.

01:06:05I'm going to personally invest myself into this band

01:06:07and their journey.

01:06:08And I'm going to buy their merch and get tickets.

01:06:09- Which is amazing, but also has the weird off, you know,

01:06:13the bad part of it of, okay,

01:06:14well now if this band does something, maybe,

01:06:17maybe shifts their style you don't like.

01:06:19Metal heads will be the loudest to say this sucks ass now.

01:06:22They'll also be-

01:06:23- Well, it feels like a personal insult.

01:06:24- Yes, exactly.

01:06:25Cause I think it's, you're much more attached to these bands.

01:06:27- I'm sure that some people are very attached

01:06:30to Megan Thee Stallion,

01:06:31but something tells me less so if she takes a pivot

01:06:35and does acoustic country than if Sleep Token

01:06:37were to do the same thing.

01:06:38- That would be hard.

01:06:39She should do Baddiecore.

01:06:40- That would be good.

01:06:41She already kind of is Baddiecore in a way.

01:06:42- She's Baddiecore without,

01:06:43just put the fucking guitars, dude.

01:06:45- Why don't you reach out to Megan Thee Stallion,

01:06:47get her on stream and you can do,

01:06:49hey, tell me about this new fast songwriting thing.

01:06:52- Oh dude, yeah.

01:06:54- You're launching a new channel.

01:06:55- No, so not a new channel.

01:06:56So basically I think I used to do was like,

01:06:59I did the series called How to Do Metal.

01:07:01It was like writing song.

01:07:02It was, how do I wear this?

01:07:03I would do shorts of like,

01:07:05'cause a lot of people loved a lot of these bands

01:07:06and I love a lot of these bands.

01:07:07I grew up, like I said, listening to a bunch of bands

01:07:08and I'm like, at this point I've written enough music.

01:07:11I've also listened to enough music

01:07:13and I understand how it kind of works.

01:07:15I kind of describing factors we were talking about,

01:07:17like the particular types of BPM

01:07:19or these intricacies of like-

01:07:20- Metal Rick Beato.

01:07:21- Yeah, metal Rick Beato.

01:07:23Respect to Rick Beato.

01:07:24He's sick by the way.

01:07:25- He's the man.

01:07:26- I used to do these How to Do in 30 seconds.

01:07:28So I would kind of do a short of like, okay.

01:07:30Like I grew up loving under oath.

01:07:33So like, okay, I want to,

01:07:34here's how to under oath in 30 seconds.

01:07:36You know what I mean?

01:07:37'Cause I also was having fun

01:07:37of like understanding short content.

01:07:39Again, I come from the old YouTube world

01:07:41of make a video, not make a clip.

01:07:44You know, I was like, what the fuck's a clip, right?

01:07:46How am I supposed to make something?

01:07:47First of 'cause I didn't grow up with like Vine on my end.

01:07:50It was like, how do I, you know,

01:07:52how do I bring something of value to someone

01:07:53for like in like 10, 30 seconds?

01:07:55This is weird.

01:07:56Like I need to do more.

01:07:57So I kind of tried with this and I was like,

01:07:59so for under oath example, I'd be like, you know,

01:08:01how to under oath in 30 seconds, you know, dissonant chords,

01:08:04you know, pterodactyl screech, you know,

01:08:07like you can do stereotypical things.

01:08:08Sometimes they're more funny meme attributes

01:08:11and sometimes they're more like musician knowledge attributes

01:08:16and you kind of combine those.

01:08:17And like at the end of 30 seconds,

01:08:19I'd play like kind of like an eight second riff

01:08:21of that kind of outlines that sound

01:08:23and try to get as close as I can to that style

01:08:26while not actually taking any of their songs, obviously,

01:08:28'cause that defeats the purpose.

01:08:30So I did that for so many bands.

01:08:32And when I saw people were like, yo, this is sick,

01:08:34like full version when?

01:08:35When are you doing the full?

01:08:36And I'm like, you really?

01:08:38You want the full version of this?

01:08:39Like, okay.

01:08:40So I would go on stream and I would write the whole thing

01:08:43in two and a half hours, two to three hours live,

01:08:46because I thought it was fun, you know?

01:08:48I'm like, all right, well, I already have the hardest part

01:08:49to write, the riff and the vibe.

01:08:51So like I kind of got commit.

01:08:52Anyways, I would do that and then I would put it on DSPs

01:08:54and kind of make it a whole rollout on YouTube.

01:08:56So I did that and that was probably the peak

01:08:58of when I was doing YouTube and like going hard

01:09:00and doing a lot of crazy shit.

01:09:02And I would do that once a week, release a song once a week,

01:09:05do one of those once a week.

01:09:06It was a little psychotic, but it was fun.

01:09:08And then fast forward kind of a year later,

01:09:11I took a break for many reasons, but you know,

01:09:13especially burnout and doing that for a while.

01:09:15And then when I came back, I noticed, you know,

01:09:18hey, you know, when I was gone, you know,

01:09:20I was taking care of myself.

01:09:21I was going outside and like, you know, working out,

01:09:24caring about like under learning.

01:09:26I missed learning so much about macros, micros even.

01:09:28I was like, oh my God, like what the fuck is this world?

01:09:30I never, I haven't taken time to learn new things, right.

01:09:33And with that also learning production,

01:09:35learning more songwriting, learning a lot of that.

01:09:37And I noticed I spent most days just also writing music,

01:09:40hanging with my wife and feeding squirrels,

01:09:41like going to the park and going to Costco.

01:09:43Like that was my life.

01:09:45And coming back, I came back with a song,

01:09:48which was really sick, a nocturnal track that I was like,

01:09:50you know, let's combine like these really obscure references,

01:09:52like dance, electronic music and funk and fall music,

01:09:56like Valjarta and Marar and all this stuff.

01:09:57And see what happens.

01:09:59And kind of made that a new project.

01:10:01And as I came back, the focus of me wanting to write,

01:10:06I started to get a little distracted of like,

01:10:08oh, like this is fun, like YouTube, like, yeah,

01:10:09I guess let's make you like videos and stuff.

01:10:11And like, I had a lot of fun doing that,

01:10:13but very quickly to avoid going back to, you know,

01:10:17the cycle of, oh shit.

01:10:20I caught myself very quickly.

01:10:22'Cause again, that time off, I never had time off.

01:10:23I did YouTube for 11 years at that point.

01:10:26Yeah, 11 years straight.

01:10:28I don't think I ever did not upload for a week.

01:10:31And again, best job in the world.

01:10:33It's hard work, but in a different capacity, you know,

01:10:36it's very mentally exhausting.

01:10:38There is no such thing as clock out.

01:10:39It is, you think about it, it's all you do,

01:10:41it's all you think about, right, forever.

01:10:43But obviously in terms of like, versus a real job, you know,

01:10:46it's much easier.

01:10:47Like I much prefer to do that, right.

01:10:49But yeah, I came back and I was starting to do these things

01:10:52and I'm like, oh, this is fun too.

01:10:53Like, yeah, I kind of want to explore.

01:10:54Like I want to test the grounds.

01:10:55Like, what do I feel?

01:10:56Like this is, you know, I left the internet and took my break

01:11:01and have this new perspective on life to a capacity,

01:11:05but particularly about what I want to do with my life

01:11:07every day and with what I want to give to people

01:11:11and share with people and what I want to spend my time doing.

01:11:15And it's been a bit of a trial period until kind of

01:11:19a few months ago.

01:11:20I was like, okay, like I understand.

01:11:21I tried a little of this, I tried a little of that again.

01:11:23Like that's definitely not for me.

01:11:24I definitely don't want to be the reaction guy.

01:11:26'Cause like, I feel like I can offer the world

01:11:28more than watching a song, you know.

01:11:30And it's really tricky 'cause particularly

01:11:32with what I've done with the channel

01:11:33and what I've done with myself is I love sharing music.

01:11:36That's what it came down to.

01:11:37That's why, you know, I started, when I started my channel,

01:11:40I would do guitar covers

01:11:42because I didn't know how to talk really, you know.

01:11:45I was just an awkward kid, you know, just finishing high school

01:11:49and I didn't really know how to talk to people.

01:11:50I didn't really, I didn't know what being a YouTuber was.

01:11:53I just played guitar and I had a lot of cool music on guitar

01:11:57that I wanted to share with people.

01:11:59So the channel has always kind of been revolved

01:12:00around sharing new music in different capacities,

01:12:02whether later on it's reactions,

01:12:04whether it's through memes, et cetera, et cetera.

01:12:06And then again, nowadays it's like, okay, well,

01:12:09how do I do that while still not going back

01:12:13to kind of old ways of like, oh, well, here's the news.

01:12:15Let's talk about it.

01:12:16But like the news is kind of always fucked up.

01:12:20You know, there's not, unfortunately in the metal scene,

01:12:22there are really good things that happen and really amazing.

01:12:24Like hell yeah, like that's a big feat, you know,

01:12:26like Knock Loose playing Kimmel

01:12:27or like Spirit Box playing like the Grammys.

01:12:30Like that's amazing, right?

01:12:32But there's also a lot of like, oh, this guy got canceled.

01:12:34And like that guy texted someone at her age

01:12:37and you're like, okay, this is not, you know,

01:12:39I don't want to go live and talk about this with people.

01:12:41This is not what I want to bring energy into my life.

01:12:44First of all, I don't want to absorb this.

01:12:46- But you're kind of obliged to because you're in the scene

01:12:48and this is news in the scene.

01:12:49- Exactly.

01:12:50- Hey, when are you going to talk about such and such?

01:12:52- Dude, when I was gone and Ozzy died, that shit was so sad.

01:12:57And like the only thing I was like, fuck man.

01:13:01Like I grew up, you know, one of the first metal songs

01:13:04I ever heard was Crazy Train in general.

01:13:05And like, fuck man, this sucks.

01:13:07And I was gone from the internet.

01:13:09So the only thing I had was like, thank fuck,

01:13:11I do not have to talk about this

01:13:13because this is like, this is not my place.

01:13:16This is not something I want to go live and discuss

01:13:19and like share it.

01:13:20You know what I mean?

01:13:21Like this is, it's, it's really tricky.

01:13:24Cause you also want to, with the community

01:13:26and you build a community for so long, you know,

01:13:28just like you celebrate the winds,

01:13:29you have to celebrate the elves and the sad parts, right?

01:13:32And when there's some things too, when it's like,

01:13:35I don't add value to this conversation

01:13:38beside maybe slightly consoling a few people,

01:13:43but it's also like, I'm not in the right space

01:13:45to do that anyway.

01:13:46So I'm not, I'm not going to bring any positive energy

01:13:49to this by doing anything with this.

01:13:50So like a lot of things like that happen and it really sucks.

01:13:53And that's something, again,

01:13:54I was in a space of what I was doing before, which I had fun.

01:13:56It was great.

01:13:57And I feel like community-wise,

01:13:58like it became something really strong

01:14:00and a lot of people would go and look for it and like,

01:14:01hey, there's news, this, this, that.

01:14:03But when it came down to it, it still was like,

01:14:06it was too much of like a slippery slope of, of like,

01:14:09hey, this really cool thing happened.

01:14:10Great, yeah, this really shitty thing happened.

01:14:13Oh.

01:14:14- Guess I need to talk about that as well.

01:14:15- Yeah, and it's ironic because obviously

01:14:17in the content space, the negative stuff will do better.

01:14:20And a lot of people get really excited.

01:14:23- Dude, "Fantana vs Radke" was like

01:14:25the heavyweight battle of 2025.

01:14:28- There's, the scene's lovely, Chris.

01:14:29It's a crazy place where like from the sidelines I see

01:14:32and I'm like, I'm kind of like,

01:14:33I'm happy I can just chill on the sidelines.

01:14:35- You are aware that this is the same

01:14:36in like every industry though, right?

01:14:38Like in podcasting, it's just as tight.

01:14:41- There's entire ecosystems dedicated to reporting

01:14:45on the drama that's going on.

01:14:46Not reporting on what they're reporting on.

01:14:49- Yes.

01:14:49- Reporting on what's happening between the people

01:14:51who do the reporting.

01:14:52- Yes, between who do the reporting

01:14:54and then reacting to the video of them reporting.

01:14:55- What I can't wait for is when people react

01:14:58to the people who do the reaction.

01:15:00- Yes, exactly.

01:15:01- I want derivative content all the way up.

01:15:02I want to be able to have, what were those fucking,

01:15:04what was the reason that the entire financial crisis happened?

01:15:07What were they, CFDs or whatever they were called?

01:15:10Like those like fucking derivative things

01:15:12where people were bundling together a ton of debt.

01:15:15I want the bundle together debt of the bundle together debt

01:15:18of the bundle together.

01:15:19Like all of the gossip of the gossip of the gossip.

01:15:20And I want to be like fucking two guys at the top.

01:15:22- Yeah, I feel, yeah.

01:15:24That goes on a lot in the content space for sure.

01:15:26And I think in the metal scene too,

01:15:27like it has bled through a lot.

01:15:28And that's why it's like, if I'm gonna, like when I left,

01:15:31I was like, I'm content with my legacy and I genuinely am.

01:15:34I'm like, if I actually-

01:15:35- You're happy to just leave it forever?

01:15:37- I am so, I am, I'm proud of what we did

01:15:42and the thing I brought to the internet for those years.

01:15:45You know what I mean?

01:15:46Like I look back on it and sure,

01:15:47I screwed up and did dumb shit.

01:15:49You know what I mean?

01:15:49Like, so does everyone.

01:15:50And it's one of those where it's like,

01:15:51I am proud that I feel like over those years,

01:15:54I was a net positive to the space in terms of which I,

01:15:59which I worked and ended things with.

01:16:01You know what I mean?

01:16:02And that, I was like, I'm cool with this.

01:16:03Like if this is actually it, that's great.

01:16:04You know what I mean?

01:16:05Like I'm gonna take a break,

01:16:07but like, I'm not gonna pressure myself of like,

01:16:09I need to come back 'cause I need to be at peace.

01:16:12And I told my wife this too.

01:16:13I was like, if I leave at all,

01:16:14I need to actually be at peace that I'm gone.

01:16:16Like-

01:16:17- And leaving, not taking a break.

01:16:18- Yeah, like I need to have that mentality.

01:16:20However, I don't, I also don't want to always close things,

01:16:23you know, so I don't want to just be like definitive, like,

01:16:26'cause I know I love it, right?

01:16:27So that's something really tricky.

01:16:28I love the space and I love this.

01:16:29And even if I do something in a different capacity,

01:16:31it's like, okay, I want like, I'm gonna,

01:16:34let's take a break 'cause I need to figure out my,

01:16:36I need to take a break anyways,

01:16:38but I need to still at this point be content

01:16:41if that's not just a break, you know what I mean?

01:16:43And like, especially 'cause I've never taken a break.

01:16:45So doing that, you learn a lot of shit about yourself

01:16:48and you learn a lot of things about what's priorities in life

01:16:51and just like what matters and-

01:16:52- What was that like?

01:16:53A lot of people, even if they don't make videos

01:16:55on the internet can relate to being hard charging.

01:16:58You've said, I've never actually taken the time

01:17:00to not just burn, right?

01:17:02This always on candle at both ends thing.

01:17:05Talk to me about the deceleration of attention,

01:17:10progress, even your habits.

01:17:12You wake up and research what's going on

01:17:14on rock sound or whatever.

01:17:15And then that would be part of the thing.

01:17:18And your girlfriend, wife, you're like, well, fucking,

01:17:21you know, like she does the same thing as me

01:17:23or similar thing to me.

01:17:23And like, maybe 'cause I'm not doing this thing anymore,

01:17:25but who's my identity?

01:17:26How am I after this?

01:17:27Can you just explain the suite of challenges

01:17:31and how you dealt with them

01:17:32as you went through your hiatus?

01:17:34- That's a big chat probably with a psychologist

01:17:37for like two hours, but I'll dump it down to more like,

01:17:39yeah, it's one of the big things you mentioned too.

01:17:42Like my wife does the same thing I do, which is awesome.

01:17:45Like she's a musician, she produces,

01:17:46and she used to also play guitar and do guitar concept too.

01:17:50And like, that's so cool.

01:17:52And one of those things of just being like,

01:17:55I'm so lucky doing what I do

01:17:59and especially what I did at that time.

01:18:00And I'm so grateful for it.

01:18:02And that's why it's so tricky to be so grateful for something

01:18:05and want to also show that, you know,

01:18:08'cause I don't want people to also be like,

01:18:10hey dude, like you're not feeling,

01:18:11like what, you get to be a YouTuber and what, you're sad?

01:18:13Like what's your fucking problem?

01:18:14You know what I mean?

01:18:15And it's like, yeah, 'cause life can happen.

01:18:18You know, there's other aspects of life,

01:18:20but also it being a thing of like, you know,

01:18:22like my wife is here and like, she also does the same thing.

01:18:25However, I'm still playing like single player in my career

01:18:29because of how I set it up for the past 12 years.

01:18:31You know, my career is based around me doing this,

01:18:33this and this and this and this and this.

01:18:35Meanwhile, my wife's there also doing her own thing,

01:18:36which she's never complained about.

01:18:38She's the most supportive, amazing woman ever.

01:18:40But it's still one of those things of like,

01:18:41I remember I would, you know,

01:18:42something would happen in the scene or like a comment.

01:18:44Like I'd be like, oh, I gotta go do this video

01:18:46and do this thing.

01:18:47Once again, less job, but it's one of those of like,

01:18:49I see my wife there like writing music there by herself.

01:18:51And I'm like, I just want to write music with you.

01:18:54Why the fuck am I doing this?

01:18:55- Well, you're living life.

01:18:56This is one of the problems when you have two people

01:18:58who have big lives,

01:19:00especially lives that start to get separated.

01:19:02The most meaningful things that you do in your work life

01:19:05occur separately.

01:19:06- Yes.

01:19:07- Like you have your highest highs of your career

01:19:10and you're not sharing them with your person at all.

01:19:12- Yeah. And I'm so,

01:19:13I am so fortunate that my person does all those things.

01:19:17So that's why-

01:19:18- At least she can speak the language,

01:19:19even if she's not there when it happens.

01:19:21- Exactly. And she's always, she's always been so supportive,

01:19:22like do your thing.

01:19:23And that's something I'm so grateful for.

01:19:24And you know, that was something I noticed

01:19:26when I took a break and just spending time,

01:19:28us doing like just writing dumb music, having fun,

01:19:30writing, not even metal shit.

01:19:31We wrote like funk beats and like Brazilian funk shit

01:19:34and like electronic music and dance stuff.

01:19:36And it was like so fun.

01:19:37We're like, there was no one around.

01:19:39It was just us.

01:19:40- No pressure.

01:19:41- Yeah. Writing music.

01:19:42We would turn on like the strobe light

01:19:43just for the vibe for us.

01:19:44You know, there's no cameras.

01:19:45We didn't care, right?

01:19:46It's something so special, but like,

01:19:48that was a big thing of like, this is so special.

01:19:51You know what I mean?

01:19:52And I want, I want to make every day like this if I can.

01:19:54You know, I'm fortunate enough to have a career around this.

01:19:57So why, why not spend time figuring out what life can be

01:20:02now that I'm like an adult?

01:20:04Because when I started this, I was 17, 18.

01:20:07Your, your, your brain is not fucking fully formed

01:20:10until like you're like 30.

01:20:12I don't know.

01:20:12Like, you know, like as, especially as a metalhead, you know,

01:20:14like it takes a while.

01:20:16And that's something where you, you grow so much

01:20:18and you become just a diff, not a fully different person,

01:20:22but you just evolve as a human, obviously, as you get older.

01:20:25And you know, that's something where all I ever knew was this,

01:20:30like I went to school, I even finished my degree.

01:20:33I have a shitty accounting degree

01:20:34that I can use as toilet paper

01:20:36'cause it didn't do fuck all for me in my life.

01:20:38But like, actually when I was going to school,

01:20:40it gave me the contrast and context

01:20:42to actually appreciate what I did even more,

01:20:44which is something kind of funny.

01:20:46So I thank going to school,

01:20:47but also like it didn't itself do anything for me

01:20:49other than provide something that was a distraction for,

01:20:52you know, me just wanting then the thing I wanted to do more.

01:20:55But that made me want to do this even more

01:20:57because I saw the other side.

01:20:59I was like, oh my goodness, like that's that life?

01:21:02Like I'm so unhappy doing that.

01:21:04Like I can do it, but it's not,

01:21:07that's not how I want to live my life, right?

01:21:09So I put so much emphasis of not trying to make it

01:21:13because even back then, you know,

01:21:14I was making 50 cents on YouTube AdSense a year.

01:21:16Like it was hilarious because all my stuff was covers.

01:21:19So copyright claims.

01:21:20But I was doing it 'cause I loved it.

01:21:22I just didn't care.

01:21:23I was like, I'll figure it out.

01:21:24I'll teach lessons, I'll do this, I'll figure it out, right?

01:21:27But I had so much fun,

01:21:29especially during that time of just figuring it out

01:21:32and putting my whole life into this.

01:21:34And then when you start to actually,

01:21:36like a year goes by or two years go by and you're like,

01:21:39oh, I'm paying rent at my own place.

01:21:43Like I wrote a track with this person that I looked up with.

01:21:48Like I looked up to, you know what I mean?

01:21:49Like when I was a young kid, like,

01:21:51oh, I got to chat with this person.

01:21:53Oh, like, you know what I mean?

01:21:55Like it just becomes your whole life.

01:21:56And you're like, whoa, like this is overwhelming.

01:21:59Cause there was no expectations of me going into what I,

01:22:02what I do with my life, you know, in terms of consecration,

01:22:04writing music, that whole world.

01:22:07And for it to actually,

01:22:08for me to somewhat manifest things

01:22:10without having the intent of, you know,

01:22:12it's almost like a delusion in a way of like,

01:22:14I was delusionally like, oh yeah, we'll make it.

01:22:16We'll get the million subs, you know,

01:22:18like we'll write music and pretend we won't be homeless.

01:22:20Like, but it was delusionally talking that somehow

01:22:24manifested it to happen.

01:22:27And then when it does happen, you're like, oh my God,

01:22:31I need to give more of me now and more and more and more

01:22:34and more because I'm never going to go back to that kid

01:22:37that stared in class,

01:22:38writing polymeters and polyrhythms on my fucking, you know,

01:22:41sheets and in, in accounting expense class,

01:22:43like I'm not going to do that.

01:22:44That's not going to be me.

01:22:46So there's so many like emotions and elements that get

01:22:50embedded and then your, you know, my brain particularly

01:22:53basically evolved and grew up with that.

01:22:56Just, this is it.

01:22:58Bring the most value to the space.

01:23:00Be the most productive.

01:23:01Don't be fucking lazy.

01:23:02Give it your all.

01:23:04Fuck going to Jake's party on Friday or whatever.

01:23:06Like what, why is, you know, that's, that's not important.

01:23:09You know, go, go be something, go, go be someone

01:23:11with your life.

01:23:12And, and that was the end all be all,

01:23:15which I'm very happy I did with my life

01:23:17because my life is what it is now.

01:23:19But at the same time, it's such a tricky thing,

01:23:21which I had no balance in life.

01:23:23I'd never understood balance of like acting like there,

01:23:27there's days I didn't go outside, which, you know, like is,

01:23:30again, do you get to work at home and make music?

01:23:33Shut the fuck up.

01:23:33You know, you don't have to go outside.

01:23:35But at the same time, it's like, no dude, like I didn't go,

01:23:37I didn't get sun.

01:23:38Like you need that for your like,

01:23:40that's why the sun's there to absorb, you know,

01:23:43like you need that for your health.

01:23:45So like, it was really tricky for me to learn work-life

01:23:48balance because my life was, you know, work.

01:23:51It was my passion and it was so embedded.

01:23:54And because it was such a self rewarding circuit,

01:23:59almost of like, I do get to do what I love and it's my job

01:24:03and it's everything I care about in my life.

01:24:05Why would I do anything else?

01:24:07And you quickly realize how unstable you can,

01:24:11like your life can become because then you,

01:24:13your self worth is basically only this.

01:24:16This is all you are as a human is what you, you know,

01:24:19your YouTube channel or the song you write

01:24:22or the video you make, that's who you are as a human.

01:24:24So if it does poorly, you're a shitty person too, you know?

01:24:27So that's a lot to unpack, yeah.

01:24:30But that's kind of like what taking that break,

01:24:34like I needed to get that balance.

01:24:35I needed to be a human.

01:24:36I needed to be like, I'm an adult.

01:24:38Like I basically haven't had this moment of clarity

01:24:40of doing anything other than this in my life.

01:24:41Like who am I?

01:24:42You know, like I still love breakdowns and breeze

01:24:46and you know, 808s that explode my speakers, right?

01:24:48Like, do I like, I think so, right?

01:24:51I still love playing guitar.

01:24:52I still love this.

01:24:54And that moment and that space brought me a lot closer

01:24:59to the things of all of those things.

01:25:00And made me realize like, I fucking live for this.

01:25:03You know, it's not just because I'm in the cycle.

01:25:05Like I live for this, but I need balance.

01:25:08That was a big thing.

01:25:09- Because if you're doing something and you've never stopped,

01:25:11momentum can carry you through

01:25:12and you don't actually take a moment to go,

01:25:15do I want to do this?

01:25:17- Yeah.

01:25:17- Is this actually my thing?

01:25:18- It's also really tricky when again, there's,

01:25:21I'm very grateful for what I've have

01:25:24and the channel and everything.

01:25:24And the people that support me over all these years.

01:25:26Like I still see people from when I started and they're like,

01:25:28dude, I remember the guitar covers.

01:25:29And I'm like, dude, I haven't done that in 10 years.

01:25:31You're OG, that's so cool, right?

01:25:34And like you, I know I'm very fortunate in that capacity.

01:25:39So that's another thing of like, again,

01:25:43who are you to complain?

01:25:44Like tough it out, you know?

01:25:46And that's something I would tell myself

01:25:47in a very unhealthy way.

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01:27:05I have a theory about this.

01:27:06I'd be interested to know what you think.

01:27:09How many bands or comedians do you know of

01:27:12that have suffered with creator burnout

01:27:14or something similar?

01:27:15- Oh, I think majority of them in a capacity, no matter what.

01:27:19- To the point that they've had to take a break

01:27:20from doing the band at all?

01:27:22- A few of them, yeah.

01:27:24- Some? - Yeah, yeah, some.

01:27:26- How many creators that make YouTube videos

01:27:28do you know that have done the same thing?

01:27:30I'm stepping away from YouTube.

01:27:31I need to take a break.

01:27:32Ryan Trahan just fired his entire team.

01:27:35I saw him and his wife walking down the street the other day

01:27:37and he was like, yeah, man, it's just me and my iPhone

01:27:39and I'm gonna be doing 12 hour days,

01:27:41like logging all of this

01:27:42'cause I didn't wanna manage people anymore.

01:27:44Here's my point.

01:27:45- Yeah.

01:27:46- Creator burnout happens to YouTubers

01:27:49and podcasters and Instagram people

01:27:52at a rate so much higher than you'd anticipate

01:27:55if you just heard what their jobs were.

01:27:57So you go, okay, so on one side of the table,

01:28:00you've got bands that have to be on tour all the time.

01:28:05They're away from their families.

01:28:06They miss their kids growing up.

01:28:08They don't spend time with their partner.

01:28:10They're in sweaty tour buses.

01:28:11Sometimes they're nice.

01:28:12Sometimes they're not nice.

01:28:13They've got places to be.

01:28:14They have to travel the world,

01:28:15the time zones, the sleep deprivation,

01:28:17all of this shit, the pressure, the highs, the lows,

01:28:20the pullback, all that, the unpredictability

01:28:22of whether the band's gonna make it, all the rest of it.

01:28:23Like, if you look at that as a lifestyle,

01:28:26if you just say what it's like, it doesn't sound,

01:28:29the same for comedians, the same for DJs.

01:28:31DJs is a little bit different,

01:28:32but the same for comedians.

01:28:33Go, you're on the road all the time.

01:28:35You're with one other person who's your support

01:28:36and maybe a tour manager if you're lucky.

01:28:38You go to these random places and say these things

01:28:41and you've got the pressure

01:28:41of whether or not you're gonna perform.

01:28:43And what do you do if you're a content creator?

01:28:45Well, you do it from the comfort of your home.

01:28:46You get to have dinner delivered to your house

01:28:48every single day.

01:28:49You've got Uber Eats.

01:28:50You can go to the gym on the morning if you want to.

01:28:52Yeah, sure.

01:28:53Maybe you don't get to see sunlight that much or whatever,

01:28:55but like, you're doing what you love

01:28:56from the comfort of your home.

01:28:57You don't even need to put pants on.

01:28:58Like, this is the dream.

01:29:00The objective difficulty of your job and my job,

01:29:05way lower than it is of something like comedy

01:29:08or being in a band.

01:29:09Exactly.

01:29:09So why is it the case then that content creators,

01:29:12people that do YouTube and podcasting,

01:29:14burn out at a way higher clip than bands and comedians?

01:29:17It's my opinion that that's because of the speed

01:29:21and the amplitude of the feedback.

01:29:23Bands get screaming fans immediately.

01:29:26You do something cool, sing a good note,

01:29:28you immediately see the positive reinforcement

01:29:31of the people in the front row

01:29:32and the hundreds of thousands of rows beyond that.

01:29:35You get to see it happening.

01:29:36You are a comedian.

01:29:37You tell a joke.

01:29:39Immediately, you get that feedback.

01:29:40Dopamine, da, da, da, da, da.

01:29:42We do a video.

01:29:43I mean, for you, you're live streaming,

01:29:44so it's a little bit different.

01:29:46The speed is quick, but the amplitude is so small.

01:29:48It's just bleeps and bloops on a screen.

01:29:51It's emotes.

01:29:52Yeah, correct, thank you.

01:29:53Good, very good, well done.

01:29:54Thank you, da, da, da, da, da.

01:29:55And then you hit a million subs and you go,

01:29:57"Wow, that was just a bigger number on a screen."

01:30:01That was a crazy moment.

01:30:02But still, if you were to do the equivalent in a band,

01:30:06whatever that would be, to sell out your first arena,

01:30:09let's say, right?

01:30:10'Cause I think that that's probably comparable

01:30:13in terms of where you get to in your career

01:30:17versus where you get to as a band.

01:30:19It wouldn't be a stadium.

01:30:20A stadium would probably be 10 mil.

01:30:23So I've played my first sort of 7,000, 8,000 cap show.

01:30:27Wow, I sold it out in advance.

01:30:29That's my million play sub thing.

01:30:31How different is the experience of playing

01:30:34in front of 7,000 people sold out in an arena for you

01:30:37versus this moment that you do something

01:30:41that's really meaningful to you

01:30:42and thank you so much to the community for being here.

01:30:44But it's so much smaller and quieter comparatively.

01:30:47And this is why I think that creator burnout,

01:30:49there's a long-winded way of my bro signs theory

01:30:51that probably isn't true, of me saying,

01:30:54I think creators burn out

01:30:55because they don't have sufficiently loud

01:30:58and sufficiently quick feedback mechanisms

01:30:59to give them the positive reinforcement

01:31:02that bands and comedians and DJs get

01:31:04when they go on the road.

01:31:06- I think also the creator lifestyle

01:31:08is more naturally encouraging of being a bit of a DJ,

01:31:11you know, like in a fun way, it's like-

01:31:12- Not seeing sun.

01:31:13- Yeah, like, yeah, literally not seeing sun,

01:31:15like doing nothing.

01:31:17- Being on your own.

01:31:18- Yeah, very, it is a very isolating thing.

01:31:21You know, I think a lot of people attribute to it.

01:31:23It's like, oh, you see the big YouTubers,

01:31:24they're all in their party houses and shit.

01:31:26I'm like, come on guys, you know, like that's, no, no,

01:31:29you know what the YouTuber is doing?

01:31:30He's editing at 5 a.m. and going to the local grocery store

01:31:33to get like some like Doritos.

01:31:35Yeah. - Chips, exactly.

01:31:36- And then coming back.

01:31:37And that's the equivalent, you know, of that.

01:31:40And then going back to the room while, you know,

01:31:43their fam and, you know, friends already are asleep

01:31:46or something, or like their partners, you know,

01:31:47have been in bed since 12, you know,

01:31:49like a normal human and then has to wake up.

01:31:52- You're missing as much life as you would on tour

01:31:54without the benefit of the experiences and the memories.

01:31:56- Well, it's true.

01:31:57I think particularly the mental aspect of it,

01:32:00'cause it's also so weird of like, physically,

01:32:02you are at home, you are there, right?

01:32:04Which is a gift.

01:32:05It is much easier, of course, than being on a road.

01:32:08Holy shit, right?

01:32:08That's intense.

01:32:11I'm surprised there's so many people that tour

01:32:14that are able to mentally deal with it.

01:32:16- As I understand, I understand what you mean

01:32:18that the objective level of comfort is greater

01:32:21when you're at home.

01:32:22But I think that although it's true,

01:32:25it kind of misses what comfort feels like

01:32:28and where meaning and satisfaction come from,

01:32:31which is going through something hard

01:32:32and coming out the other side okay with people, right?

01:32:35That's what it is.

01:32:36- Yeah, there's always people around.

01:32:37Even if your whole band's busy, I don't know,

01:32:40your photographer's there,

01:32:41your front-of-the-house guys are there.

01:32:42- Exactly, the LD's there, the TM's there.

01:32:44Like you can go for dinner with somebody.

01:32:45You get to share in the failures and in the successes,

01:32:48both at the same time.

01:32:49It's not the same.

01:32:52It's just, it's simply not the same.

01:32:53So again, like I understand the like throat-clearing

01:32:56land acknowledgement you've got to do of saying,

01:32:58I understand I'm in a privileged position

01:33:00and I don't need to leave the house

01:33:01and who am I to complain and da, da, da, da, da.

01:33:03And that is true, but I think it just misses,

01:33:08people who have a problem with that and say,

01:33:10well, there's no reason the creator

01:33:11should be getting burned out.

01:33:12They just simply don't understand

01:33:14where meaning and motivation come from.

01:33:17And they don't come from comfort.

01:33:20It's not what you want.

01:33:22It's what you need.

01:33:23And sometimes what you need isn't always what you want.

01:33:25For instance, I'm friends with a bunch of people in bands

01:33:28that are at the transitionary period

01:33:29from where they've just been on a bus, sleeper bus,

01:33:33to now being able to afford hotels each night.

01:33:36They want the hotel room each night.

01:33:39They need to be on the bus with the band

01:33:41because they finish a show, they go back to a hotel

01:33:44and now they're on their own.

01:33:45And even though that's what they want,

01:33:46it's not what they need.

01:33:47And I think that mental health will decline

01:33:52in line with how separated the members of a band get.

01:33:56You know, there's duos that have separate tour buses.

01:33:59- Yeah, oh yeah.

01:33:59- You know what I mean?

01:34:00And they're touring together.

01:34:02Homeboy's conga lining their way from Atlanta

01:34:04to Pittsburgh or whatever.

01:34:06And you go, well, why is that happening?

01:34:08Well, because we can afford it and I want that.

01:34:10You go, yeah, but are you happier?

01:34:12Or were you happier when you and Homeboy

01:34:14were bunking on top of each other?

01:34:16Because I reckon that you actually were more,

01:34:18anyway, all of that is to say that just because

01:34:21what you want might be to sit in your comfortable seat

01:34:24at home and have your air conditioning

01:34:26and your Uber Eats come here

01:34:27and not need to put pants on.

01:34:29- Depends on the video.

01:34:31- That doesn't mean that it's the highest level of motivation

01:34:34and reinforcement that you want.

01:34:35And this is where, I mean, it's never gonna work.

01:34:37It's me and you, no matter how much we try to warn people,

01:34:40it's never ever gonna work.

01:34:41But what is it?

01:34:43The number one job that young kids want is YouTuber

01:34:46and the second one is influencer.

01:34:48- That's great.

01:34:49- Back in my day, dude, it was still

01:34:51fucking doctor and astronaut.

01:34:53So I don't know what the hell is happening.

01:34:55Like if everybody, you know, if someone gets like,

01:34:57I don't know, a big cut now, if they're just fucked

01:34:59'cause it's just a YouTuber coming to save them,

01:35:00like, I don't know what's gonna happen with that.

01:35:02- I really wanted to be a creator,

01:35:03but I couldn't cut it on YouTube.

01:35:04So I'm here, I think we put, we pull some,

01:35:07we'll pull some of this beer on, it'll be fine.

01:35:09- Yeah, beer, Polysporin fixes everything,

01:35:10don't worry about it, you know what I mean?

01:35:11Like, fuck it.

01:35:12But it's, that's where it's tricky.

01:35:14'Cause I grew up in that era.

01:35:14YouTube wasn't a job still in the early 2010s, right?

01:35:19There was like some of the bigger YouTubers,

01:35:21like the PewDiePies and the Markiplier.

01:35:24I think Markiplier was around mid, mid-tens.

01:35:26And those guys doing stuff and that's great.

01:35:30But you could tell, again, it's a different vibe too.

01:35:33Like they're just being dumb asses and having fun.

01:35:35Like they're having fun.

01:35:37They're already-

01:35:38- Even PewDie's fucking done his retreat

01:35:40from the internet though.

01:35:41- Yeah, dude, I love his new vibe.

01:35:42He's just like, I got my fam, I'm living my life

01:35:46and I'm doing Linus shit.

01:35:47Like I'm vibing, dude.

01:35:48Like he's just doing his own thing.

01:35:50And I'm like, good for you, bro.

01:35:51- I wrote this essay a couple of weeks ago,

01:35:53the fuck you family.

01:35:54So there's three different stages

01:35:57that people can say fuck you at.

01:35:58Fuck you money.

01:36:00Don't need to ever worry about what something costs.

01:36:04You're not even that beholden to the limitations

01:36:08of going to work.

01:36:08You don't need to have a boss.

01:36:10Wonderful.

01:36:11Fuck you freedom, which is maybe you're on a ranch,

01:36:14somewhere out here in Texas.

01:36:15You kind of don't even need to adhere to the laws

01:36:17if you keep yourself quiet enough.

01:36:18So they're usually facilitated by fuck you money,

01:36:20but it's a little bit different too.

01:36:22Sometimes you can get it in a different sort of a way.

01:36:24You could imagine the van life people

01:36:25have got fuck you freedom without fuck you money.

01:36:28But there's a third level, which is fuck you family.

01:36:31And fuck you family is realizing that all of the games

01:36:36that you played to try and get a claim and respect

01:36:39and recognition from the people in your industry,

01:36:43admiration from the people you admire, all that stuff,

01:36:47kind of doesn't matter anymore

01:36:48because the only people that I need to care about

01:36:50are in the bed next to me or in the room across the hall.

01:36:54And they think that I'm the coolest, richest, smartest,

01:36:57most heroic person on the planet.

01:36:58So as long as my wife and my babies love me

01:37:02and think that I'm awesome, fuck you.

01:37:05And that I think explains this,

01:37:08you could call it just the dad pivot

01:37:11that a lot of guys go through

01:37:12and it's sick to see PewDie do it too.

01:37:14Someone who really was sending the living shit out of it,

01:37:16like at the top of his game to just be like,

01:37:19I'm good, man, I'm out.

01:37:21I can't wait for that.

01:37:22I'm so ready to do this from a place of peace, I'm out.

01:37:27- Yeah, it's so tricky.

01:37:31When people make it like that and kind of go,

01:37:35somewhat unscathed, 'cause no matter what,

01:37:37you can't escape with a little--

01:37:39- PewDie fucking escaped the entire industry.

01:37:41- Considering the situation that happened--

01:37:44- Correct, you came out essentially

01:37:46with not a scratch on him.

01:37:49- Yes, so that's why, and I think other people,

01:37:52one of my fucking Filthy Frank

01:37:54being one of those OG YouTubers too,

01:37:55where it's like, that dude quitting at the perfect time,

01:37:58he knew, he knew what was coming.

01:38:01- Selling Bitcoin at the top of the market.

01:38:02- Yeah, dude, it's better than that.

01:38:04And then being able to also do

01:38:06exactly what he wants with Joji is like,

01:38:08whoa, that's like a different kind of fuck you.

01:38:11That's like a-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:38:13- That's like a fucking transcendent fucking--

01:38:15- Escape velocity.

01:38:16- Yeah, man, I'm like, how did you?

01:38:19Yeah, we're like, especially when,

01:38:21it's crazy when you have a cataloger like that,

01:38:25you're just uncancelled.

01:38:26I love that, that's why, because you're out.

01:38:28What's someone gonna do?

01:38:29What's someone gonna do? - Sorry, take me down.

01:38:31I'm not making anything big.

01:38:32- Yeah, I'm Joji, I love that, you know what I mean?

01:38:34- I would love to see the residuals

01:38:39that somebody like PewDiePie is getting

01:38:41if he just doesn't upload anything else.

01:38:43You know what I mean?

01:38:44Because you've just got--

01:38:45- How many limited ads you've got on those videos.

01:38:47Dude, that's a tricky thing.

01:38:49And when it comes to YouTube,

01:38:51and also part of the reason I had a lot of trouble

01:38:54'cause I drive so much of my worth and value of YouTube,

01:38:56not necessarily always 'cause of the numbers.

01:38:58Like, you know, if a video didn't do so well,

01:39:00I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm gonna go end everything now.

01:39:03It was just tricky.

01:39:05It's like your baby, the thing you really care about.

01:39:06And it feels like it's not growing.

01:39:09When I was younger, that would hit me a lot.

01:39:10And then over time, start to diversify, right?

01:39:14As the thing with YouTube or just one particular platform.

01:39:17And I would always advise this to other content people

01:39:20and as well as even musicians of just like,

01:39:21please God, do not just trust this one thing.

01:39:23'Cause YouTube can sit there and just be like,

01:39:26here's a new policy.

01:39:29Yeah, you know the edgy content you did with those guys?

01:39:32It's all limited ads now.

01:39:33You make 10% of what you made before

01:39:36'cause advertisers are, you know,

01:39:38the better advertisers are not shown on it.

01:39:40Now it's only like the whatever,

01:39:41gamble crazy shit that that's on there.

01:39:43Sorry, it's, sorry, you know.

01:39:45And you just have to stare at it and be like,

01:39:46okay, so I have 5% of my income now.

01:39:49Like that's how it goes, right?

01:39:50And that's a tricky thing unless you diversify

01:39:53of being like, okay, well, oh, okay.

01:39:54Like YouTube fucked me, but whatever.

01:39:56I'm streaming on Twitch.

01:39:57Oh, I got Patreon supporters too.

01:39:58Oh, I have signature this, I have signature that.

01:40:01I have affiliate links.

01:40:02You know what I mean?

01:40:03If you diversify yourself,

01:40:04you're also much less of a susceptible

01:40:07to like just a platform,

01:40:11which does not, any of these platforms don't deserve,

01:40:13I think, any particular loyalty to, you know,

01:40:15the content creators.

01:40:16There's no loyalty from them to you.

01:40:18Yeah, exactly.

01:40:18So it's like, why the fuck?

01:40:20You know, if one day, like I said,

01:40:22a Spotify or an Apple Music just wants to be like,

01:40:24yeah, man, I don't know, dude.

01:40:26Like, Suna's kind of lit, so fuck it.

01:40:28Like all of our money's there.

01:40:29Like real musicians are only getting like 10% now.

01:40:32Like that's a hilarious and extreme,

01:40:33but you know what I mean?

01:40:34What do you think's happening with the state of Spotify,

01:40:37streaming stuff at the moment?

01:40:39Because there was a long time, and still is,

01:40:41of artists being quite disgruntled

01:40:44with a variety of different streaming services.

01:40:47Title seemed to be pretty good

01:40:49in the eyes of at least artists,

01:40:51but who the fuck uses title?

01:40:53I don't know the single person in my life who used to.

01:40:56You know what I mean?

01:40:57So what's the sort of overview

01:41:00of how artists and streaming platforms

01:41:03are relating at the moment?

01:41:05- I mean, everyone always is pissed,

01:41:08and you know, I've been like.

01:41:11(laughing)

01:41:12- That's just a summary of the world, though.

01:41:15- Yeah, particularly with the music.

01:41:17Like that is one of probably the biggest complaints

01:41:20in the music industry of like streaming doesn't pay enough.

01:41:23And it's tricky 'cause yeah,

01:41:26Spotify pay more, what the fuck?

01:41:27But at the same time,

01:41:29a lot of bands also are on contracts,

01:41:32and a lot of the on those contracts,

01:41:34they're not realizing maybe,

01:41:35hey, they signed off like all of their royalties

01:41:38or all of their streaming revenue.

01:41:40Or hey, you still have like your $5 million loan

01:41:45you got to pay back

01:41:46before you actually get any streaming revenue.

01:41:48So like, I think a lot of those stories

01:41:51get pushed extremely hard with those bands.

01:41:55And they're like, you know, there'll be a band that's like,

01:41:56I have like 50 million streams

01:41:58and I made like 20 bucks on my song.

01:41:59And it's like, okay, well, yes,

01:42:01Spotify should pay more,

01:42:03but there's other stuff involved.

01:42:04- Who paid for that record?

01:42:05- Yeah, yeah, like there's-

01:42:07- Who paid for the promo?

01:42:07- Uh huh, yeah.

01:42:08- Who paid for the video?

01:42:09Who paid for your shoot?

01:42:10Who paid for, who fronted the tour?

01:42:12- I think bands are now becoming more aware of deals.

01:42:15'Cause you know, back in the day, it's like,

01:42:16oh, I signed to a record label.

01:42:17Oh my God, we made it, we did it.

01:42:18We signed whatever piece of paper.

01:42:19Oh my God, $200,000.

01:42:21We're all rich, let's go drink.

01:42:22You know what I mean?

01:42:23Let's go buy a car instead of realizing like,

01:42:26oh, we owe a lot, like we have to pay this bad guys,

01:42:30you know, like the capacity.

01:42:32- Do you remember that documentary

01:42:34that was done about 30 seconds to Mars

01:42:36when they had to make their album?

01:42:38Bro.

01:42:39- I have to.

01:42:40- So this, I only ever saw it once.

01:42:42It might actually be a fucking fever dream.

01:42:44It might not exist.

01:42:45So, but let me see if I can find it.

01:42:4730 seconds to Mars, documentary Sony.

01:42:51So it was when they were in Artifact.

01:42:55It's a 2012 award-winning documentary by Jared Leto

01:42:58that follows 30 seconds to Mars

01:43:00during the 2008 legal battle against EMI.

01:43:03The film documents the band's $30 million lawsuit

01:43:06while they recorded the album, "This is War,"

01:43:10provides an intimate look into the music business

01:43:12and the fight for creative freedom.

01:43:13So this is available.

01:43:16It's available on Netflix, apparently.

01:43:18Everyone should go and watch this.

01:43:19I remember seeing this pretty much just after it came out

01:43:23and it fucking rules and it is, Jared Leto is using

01:43:27like war dogs money or whatever the fuck that movie was in

01:43:31that he was in with Nick Cage.

01:43:35- Or a Scuicide Squad?

01:43:36- No, he was where he was,

01:43:37he was the like second in command to a dude.

01:43:39Anyway, like he's using money from acting

01:43:43to fund the band recording the record

01:43:47because the deal that they've got is it's,

01:43:50fuck 360, it's like 720.

01:43:52They've got like a 720 deal

01:43:53and they just eat everything for the rest of the time,

01:43:55the rest of the time, the rest of the time.

01:43:57- Jesus. - And it is gnarly.

01:43:59This, I can't believe that it kind of,

01:44:02maybe 'cause of when it came out, like 2012,

01:44:04who would have done a reaction to it?

01:44:06I reckon your audience would eat this shit up,

01:44:09especially if you did a breakdown.

01:44:11I think it's fucking fantastic.

01:44:12So yeah, basically eight stars on IMDb out of 5,000 reviews.

01:44:17- Jeez. - So yeah, it ripped.

01:44:19But yeah, these big 360 deals.

01:44:21I mean, I saw the top line

01:44:24of one of these deals the other day.

01:44:25And the first thing of a 12 page record deal contract

01:44:29is something along the lines of this is a long standing

01:44:34and completely binding legal document.

01:44:38It is crucial that you fully understand this

01:44:41because it involves the rest of your life.

01:44:43It is highly advisable to get legal advice to...

01:44:46Like up top it is, but I guess if you're in a band

01:44:50that's been grinding for so long and it's like,

01:44:52yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck the small print.

01:44:54Where's the, where's the, where's the, ooh, 750 grand.

01:44:57- Yeah, I mean, I think nowadays,

01:45:01a lot of those deals have become better

01:45:02'cause artists have become more aware

01:45:03and also labels have become more,

01:45:05I think the right word might be accommodating.

01:45:08I'm not sure of like, oh, okay,

01:45:09like we need to be a bit more creative

01:45:12instead of it just be like these classic like--

01:45:14- I need to fuck you in an inventive way.

01:45:15- In an inventive way.

01:45:17I'm like, yeah, where it's, and also I remember,

01:45:21I mean, I would see, I would talk with bands, right?

01:45:23And understand a bit and talk with labels too.

01:45:24I'd be like, I learned a lot of that knowledge

01:45:28more working within the scene from my perspective,

01:45:30which was different.

01:45:31Again, I'm not, I wasn't in a signed band.

01:45:33I wasn't with that.

01:45:34I was working with a lot of labels.

01:45:35I was working with a lot of signed bands

01:45:37and a lot of friends with a lot of signed bands

01:45:38and a lot of friends, you know,

01:45:39with the A&Rs and labels and stuff and working as a,

01:45:42again, content creator YouTuber space, right?

01:45:44But my space is usually not as coincided with that world.

01:45:47It's like, you are content, DIY, random,

01:45:50figure it the fuck out guy.

01:45:51You make, you do Photoshop and you go make memes, right?

01:45:53- Good luck.

01:45:54- And here you go, these people make the real music, right?

01:45:56And actually deal with the real business.

01:45:57Like that's, that was kind of the relationship.

01:45:59Maybe, you know, I wish less years ago, but you know,

01:46:03like quite a few years ago.

01:46:05And that's something where I've seen over the years,

01:46:07I remember talking to someone and being like,

01:46:09oh, so what like the industry standard for like how many,

01:46:10how many records you own?

01:46:12It's like, you know, it would be, someone would say like,

01:46:14yeah, we only, we still owe our label like five records.

01:46:18And I'm like, I would sit there and I'd be like,

01:46:21what do you mean?

01:46:22'Cause I it's, as a, again, as a concept for,

01:46:24especially as a person who's-

01:46:25- You mean singles or album?

01:46:27No, albums. - Albums.

01:46:28- Albums, I owe them like 60 tracks.

01:46:31- Yeah, and I just, okay, so math.

01:46:33If we do the two year cycle of most majority of bands

01:46:36of release schedule, you signed away 10 years of your life.

01:46:41I don't know when you plan on dying brother,

01:46:43but that's more than 10% of your life.

01:46:45And I, especially with a lot of these musicians,

01:46:48they seem to want to be musicians 'cause they love music

01:46:50and come into this space to not be conventional

01:46:53and not want a normal job and not have someone tell them

01:46:55what they can and can't do.

01:46:58And I would see a lot of musicians and it would be very sad

01:47:01of like, that seems more of a lock in corporate bullshit

01:47:05than just going to work at, you know, the bookkeeping firm.

01:47:09- Because it's taking what was your passion

01:47:11and turning it into an engine.

01:47:13- Yeah, which to the credit of some labels

01:47:16that are able to do it very well and successfully,

01:47:18obviously there's sometimes big bands that otherwise maybe,

01:47:20especially in the 2000s, like they didn't have a label.

01:47:22Maybe there's a lot of musicians that do not have

01:47:25the best business side of things, you know,

01:47:27they just want to play music.

01:47:28You know, they grow up, they fucking love Nirvana,

01:47:30they love Metallica and they just want, I want to make that.

01:47:33I want to do that, I want to do it now.

01:47:34I don't give a fuck about business.

01:47:36I don't care.

01:47:37They don't, I don't want to look at my bank account, right?

01:47:38Like none of this and kudos to them, right?

01:47:41They want that, but then they do need that business person.

01:47:43They do need that label to, or manager at the very least,

01:47:46right, to figure shit out for them.

01:47:48And yeah, they're going to get taken advantage of

01:47:50because that's how the industry works, right?

01:47:53If the, you know, you're kind of just going with the flow.

01:47:55I don't know where, unless you find someone that's just,

01:47:57I don't know, the very rare person that has, you know,

01:48:00but is a bit more empathetic and is like,

01:48:02hey dude, you know what?

01:48:04Like, I know I can fuck you for this,

01:48:07but I'm only going to fuck you for this because you're cool

01:48:10and I want to see you succeed.

01:48:12You know what I mean?

01:48:13And that's a tricky line to, to go ahead with.

01:48:16Where like five years, it's like, bro, like what?

01:48:20Or even, I mean, three years left.

01:48:21I'm like, or not three years, three albums.

01:48:23And I'm like, that's six years of your life at least.

01:48:25Like that's, dude, you are a different person in six years.

01:48:28Like you, you, you, you even going to like this type of music

01:48:31in six years?

01:48:32Like that's such a long commitment.

01:48:35It's like a marriage to the business entity,

01:48:38which would be a label.

01:48:39And then you're also married.

01:48:40You're in a band, so you're married to all your band members.

01:48:42You're trying to make,

01:48:43how many marriages are you trying to work out there, bro?

01:48:45- Yep.

01:48:46- Like, you know, a lot of people have tricky with one

01:48:48and you want to make, you know, your five band members,

01:48:50you're married to them.

01:48:51You see them more than your family.

01:48:53You eat together.

01:48:53You know all your habits, you know, and piss each other off.

01:48:56You know what I mean?

01:48:57You, you guys earn income together.

01:48:58You lose income together.

01:49:00And you have the corporate entity over you and management

01:49:04and whatever else that's attached to that.

01:49:06Which again, some, some musicians fucking need this

01:49:08because they're, they need to, they need guidance

01:49:10in a capacity.

01:49:11But for some of those deals, especially the,

01:49:14like 2000s or way back when, it's like, holy shit, bro.

01:49:18How do you like, that's, that's too much commitment, man.

01:49:22How are you doing that?

01:49:23- Given that nobody doesn't listen to music.

01:49:25- Yeah.

01:49:26- No one, everybody has some music.

01:49:27Some people are more into music than others.

01:49:29Some people are more into some music than others,

01:49:31but everybody listens to some sort of music.

01:49:33- Yeah.

01:49:34- I can't believe how retarded the music industry is.

01:49:37- It is fucking wild, dude.

01:49:39When I found out about how distribution works,

01:49:42but like DistroKid and, and if you want to put,

01:49:45if I want to put a podcast on the internet,

01:49:47I've got even a decade ago when I started researching,

01:49:51doing the podcast, pod's like eight and a half years old.

01:49:53I used old school RSS on Libsyn 4.

01:49:57And the only reason that I used that is because

01:49:59it was what Rogan used back, back, back in the day.

01:50:01It's like an old school RSS feed converter

01:50:03that you manually plug into all of these different things.

01:50:05And then after a while, it gets a little bit more,

01:50:08I remember I was uploading it to like,

01:50:10JB, what's that, what's that Ghanaian streaming service.

01:50:14It's called like Ana or something.

01:50:16There's like, there was like, we were putting it on Deezoo,

01:50:19we were putting it on SoundCloud,

01:50:19and we were putting it on all of these different things.

01:50:21There's like, there's one,

01:50:23the only one that you can get in all of Africa at the time.

01:50:26I'm like manually going in and adding the RSS feed

01:50:29to all of this stuff. - Every episode?

01:50:31- No, once, but then sometimes it would like time out

01:50:34or shit would change on the backend

01:50:36and I'd need to go in and check link health.

01:50:39And I did that for five or six years.

01:50:42And then we moved to Megaphone.

01:50:43Megaphone got bought by Spotify and now everything,

01:50:45it's plug and play.

01:50:46It's the, it's like fucking Squarespace, right?

01:50:50For making a website.

01:50:51So I don't need to learn to code anymore.

01:50:53I just drag and drop and everything happens.

01:50:55- Yeah.

01:50:56- Not the same apparently,

01:50:57if I want to put a song on both Apple Music and Tidal

01:51:00and Spotify at the same time.

01:51:02So you can use like the, you can use like a DistroKid now

01:51:04or oh my CD baby, I forget the name of the movie.

01:51:07- But you still have to jump through a fucking shit

01:51:09like way more hoops, right?

01:51:10In order to coordinate that kind of a release.

01:51:12- More than the podcast.

01:51:13So I, and so funny when I, before I left,

01:51:16I would chat with people and I'd have to still use

01:51:18like Podfarm or something.

01:51:19So I had to use the RSS,

01:51:20but it was still a bit more like conjoined.

01:51:22So it was, it wasn't what you were talking about.

01:51:23It was like the next gen of much easier.

01:51:25And now it's literally just like,

01:51:26oh, I uploaded on like creative Spotify.

01:51:27Like, oh, I guess it's there.

01:51:29Like it's done, that's cool.

01:51:30That's the DistroKid stuff.

01:51:32It, and like the music side, it's still, it's not that bad,

01:51:37but it's, it could be more ideal.

01:51:39You know, like it's basically, okay.

01:51:41Title, artwork, date, record label.

01:51:44And if you don't have one, you have to just put, you know,

01:51:46that's why you see some fun, like, you know,

01:51:47bands that are independent.

01:51:48They say like, whatever, you know,

01:51:49whatever the fuck record is that?

01:51:50Like, I hate you brother, like whatever.

01:51:52They make up some random names just to put something in there.

01:51:55And then you have to make sure you have the right audio.

01:51:57You have to make sure, you know, you,

01:52:00you check if it's like explicit and all this shit.

01:52:03Like it's basically a checklist of, oh my God,

01:52:05I've done it enough times at this point.

01:52:06Probably like five to 10 things.

01:52:10Every song, unless it's an album.

01:52:12So every, every release is maybe better wording for that,

01:52:14that you have to do.

01:52:15And then after it's the setup, you got to add the lyrics.

01:52:18You got to add this and that.

01:52:19It's starting to become a bit more automated.

01:52:21So it is a bit easier,

01:52:22but also considering how before you just needed a record,

01:52:27label, as far as I knew,

01:52:29maybe there was also specific, just distribution companies.

01:52:32I'm sure there was, right.

01:52:33That just did that.

01:52:34And you didn't need to be like signed to the label,

01:52:35but then again, mistake me if I'm wrong.

01:52:37You probably still have to be signed

01:52:39to the distribution company in that capacity.

01:52:41So that's why when this stuff came out,

01:52:44I think a lot of independent musicians became very happy

01:52:46because again, we don't ask, don't ask for much.

01:52:49So it's just- - Just want to bypass

01:52:50the bullshit.

01:52:51- Yeah, that, cause that made, I saw a lot of bands

01:52:53and you can always tell when they're independent.

01:52:55Like I said, cause the default is like some like

01:52:57at just DK number, number, number as your record label.

01:52:59So when you see that as an upload, you're like,

01:53:01oh, these are kids that just like just uploaded,

01:53:03just figured it out, you know what I mean?

01:53:05And that's something really funny.

01:53:07And then you see them get like signed later.

01:53:08So now it's like, oh, so a lot of these independent artists

01:53:11have more of a say of at least how they can do it.

01:53:13Even SoundCloud, that was a pretty big one.

01:53:17And even the, not the metal scene as much.

01:53:19I know there was like literally a genre SoundCloud rap.

01:53:22So I know in the rap scene, it was like big.

01:53:25In the metal scene, it wasn't as popular,

01:53:27but some musicians used it, particularly content.

01:53:29Musicians used that back in the day.

01:53:31So it's better than before.

01:53:33That's why, but in comparison to how easy I see it is

01:53:37to use like the Spotify podcast thing now, I'm like,

01:53:40you guys got to up your fucking technology music scene.

01:53:42Cause like it's taken a bit.

01:53:44- Have you seen song DNA on Spotify yet?

01:53:48- No, it's not good.

01:53:49- So I've only just seen this for the first time.

01:53:50Okay, so I decided to do it on "Can You Feel My Heart?"

01:53:52- Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:53:53- So if you go onto the track and then at the,

01:53:56like below the lyrics and about the song

01:53:59and all the rest of it is song DNA.

01:54:01So if I click explore, this is all of the different people.

01:54:06So this is like Ted Jensen, the mastering engineer,

01:54:09Dan Graziano, the editor, Annie Skates, a contractor.

01:54:14And then like Matt Nichols, drums,

01:54:16and then how many collaborators

01:54:17and how many songs he's on, Matt Nichols.

01:54:19So like if I open up like Jordan Fish, composer, three roles.

01:54:24So like, and now I can go into worked with 275 artists,

01:54:29recorded 473 songs, top songs with like,

01:54:33and now I can go in there and this is all of his stuff.

01:54:36So this is kind of like a matrix or a web

01:54:40where you can explore how all of the different people

01:54:43are associated with different stuff.

01:54:45- Cause before, yeah, before it was just,

01:54:46you would right click and it would say song credits

01:54:47and they updated it now before it was so pathetic.

01:54:51It was just performer, writer, and producer.

01:54:54And most of the time it would be glitched

01:54:56and not always super accurate anyways.

01:54:58But like, if you were a co-producer, for example,

01:55:01it wouldn't even show.

01:55:02So it was just the main producer.

01:55:04It was just the performers and whoever else has primary,

01:55:07if you want to, you know,

01:55:07get some extra Spotify plays with you, go for it, right?

01:55:10And then the songwriters, but it wouldn't say mixer,

01:55:12it wouldn't say engineer, it wouldn't say fuck all,

01:55:14even though when you distribute,

01:55:15you have the option to put all-

01:55:17- To tag everything.

01:55:18- So all that metadata is usually in there

01:55:21if you take the time to input it, right?

01:55:23- If you go to, what's the website that lists

01:55:25like every single person that's involved in a record,

01:55:28it's like the legal requirement for it.

01:55:30- Oh, like the public, like actual publishing, like BMI?

01:55:33- Yeah, maybe, yeah.

01:55:35And that seems to be a little bit more granular.

01:55:38- They don't screw around.

01:55:39Well, that's how a lot of artists

01:55:40who are anonymous get leaked.

01:55:41- Yes.

01:55:42- Because you know, when it comes to publishing

01:55:44and like they're like, you know-

01:55:45- Yeah, cute, cute that you're supposed

01:55:47to not know who you are.

01:55:47Put your fucking legal name on this website, dude.

01:55:49Thank you.

01:55:50- Yeah, that happens really quickly.

01:55:51And it's like, but like, you know,

01:55:53hey, we, you know, we're anonymous and it's like,

01:55:55okay, so I don't give a fuck about your stage name.

01:55:57I need your legal name or you're not getting published.

01:55:59So like, it's kind of that, you know, that's why I like-

01:56:04- Yeah, yeah, nice one, Dark Danny.

01:56:07We'll have your full fucking Daniel Robertson.

01:56:10We'll have that down.

01:56:11- It's way more lame if they had to go Dark Danny.

01:56:14It's gonna, yeah, yeah.

01:56:16- What is the worst thing do you think about?

01:56:19Oh, actually, what's your prediction

01:56:22for the sort of next five years or so of alternative music?

01:56:26Are you, what are you worried about

01:56:27and what are you positive about?

01:56:29- Ooh, that's a big question, man.

01:56:31It's, okay, what I'm positive about is I think

01:56:38the scene is becoming more and more genre-less,

01:56:42which I get excited about because then the focus is not,

01:56:45hey, can we make a deathcore or a metalcore or a pop,

01:56:48you know, popcore, whatever the fuck, banger.

01:56:50It's can we just make a good song, you know?

01:56:52Like, and you know, I love that

01:56:55because then there's gonna be a higher quantity

01:56:57of good music.

01:56:58I think that's always kind of my end goal with it.

01:57:01It's just like, whatever route leads to like,

01:57:03can we just get more actual good shit that doesn't suck?

01:57:06Like, that's all I really care.

01:57:07So I feel like the scene is going that way in a healthy way.

01:57:12The bad side of that is I think also

01:57:15because metal is, the good and the bad,

01:57:18metal's becoming more popular than ever,

01:57:20but now it's also almost like cool to like it.

01:57:23So it's being more gamified.

01:57:26It's becoming more of like a specific structure

01:57:30of how to write like an octanecore song, right?

01:57:33And that's no showing an octane

01:57:34'cause octane being metal radio or rock radio,

01:57:37actually it has breakdowns now.

01:57:39That's sick.

01:57:40You know, it has heavy parts.

01:57:41It has screaming, right?

01:57:42Like that's something where I'm like,

01:57:43that's cool now that people would go there before

01:57:45and just listen to like, hell yeah, brother.

01:57:47You know what I mean?

01:57:48And like have a good time with like respect to Nickelback,

01:57:49but with Nickelback or with like Creed

01:57:51or with like Classic Rock.

01:57:53Now you're hearing like the bad omens,

01:57:55the sort of sleep tokens, the spirit box

01:57:58and stuff like that on there, right?

01:57:59And that's really good to see.

01:58:00But also it becoming much bigger,

01:58:03meaning that there's more industry and labels

01:58:07and monetization in this space

01:58:10that maybe didn't exist as much.

01:58:12- So there's more of an incentive for people to do fuckery.

01:58:15- To do fuckery and to be like, oh, well this style is big.

01:58:18So just make, create, you know, create seven bands.

01:58:20That's just that style.

01:58:21You know what I mean?

01:58:22Like octanecore is legitimately a-

01:58:24- What is octanecore, who would be in that?

01:58:26- Like, and again, this isn't a derogatory,

01:58:28like of like, oh, you're octane, it's-

01:58:30- The people who are derivative of this might be,

01:58:32it might be derogatory.

01:58:33- Yes, exactly.

01:58:34But like Bad Wolves is a big one,

01:58:37Five Finger Death Punch, for sure.

01:58:39That is the best description, that one.

01:58:42But it also leave is again,

01:58:44like you'll see Bad Omens in there.

01:58:45You'll see a spirit box.

01:58:46You'll see like Bill Murray even to a point, right?

01:58:47And he's kind of more extreme and fun, right?

01:58:50But it's basically music that is,

01:58:52it's radio friendly, active rock or slash alternative metal.

01:58:57And the boundaries is what makes it interesting now

01:59:02is that now you can have double kick.

01:59:05Now you can have screaming.

01:59:07Now you can tune down your guitars.

01:59:09- And get away with more.

01:59:10- And you can get away with more.

01:59:11Exactly, so that's what is cool about what octanecore is.

01:59:15But because of that, it is very formulaic.

01:59:18And a lot of bands see that and see the success

01:59:20and be like, wait, my band can make breakdowns

01:59:22and get on radio?

01:59:23What the?

01:59:24- That's the route to fame.

01:59:25- That's the route to money.

01:59:27Yeah, you know?

01:59:27And definitely fame to a capacity where it's like, oh, sick.

01:59:30So that's something where it comes with the good and bad.

01:59:34Again, heavy music is getting more popular, great.

01:59:36And that's getting injected in a way

01:59:37where bands are becoming more creative with it,

01:59:39but then also bands are becoming more sterile with it

01:59:41and being like, this is, oh, well, let's just do this.

01:59:43- Samey copycat.

01:59:44- Samey copycat.

01:59:45Just work, write the same chorus every time,

01:59:48use the exact same melody, use the same lyrics

01:59:51with slight differentials so we don't get sued

01:59:53by the other band.

01:59:54And like, let's all try to be Linkin Park again.

01:59:57'Cause like Linkin, it's so crazy to me

02:00:00that it took so long for everyone

02:00:01to copy/paste Linkin Park again,

02:00:02considering how massive they were in 2000s.

02:00:04But like, yeah, that's the epitome of like

02:00:07the most successful sound, I think,

02:00:10in the modern metal sphere.

02:00:11If you can pull off a good hybrid theory, you're eating.

02:00:15You're gonna eat well, you know?

02:00:16So yeah, again, it's always tricky

02:00:19because I'm excited for bands to get heavier

02:00:21and that'd be more things that young kids get into,

02:00:23but I'm also like, fuck.

02:00:24- It's gonna dilute down the sound?

02:00:26- Yeah, it's gonna make it a little diluted,

02:00:29which is, it is what it is.

02:00:30But also I hear a lot of bands within that

02:00:32making very weird shit because there's no genres.

02:00:34Like there's this, I don't know if you listen

02:00:36to much of these smaller bands like Marar

02:00:37or like Disembodied Tyrant.

02:00:39- Nope.

02:00:40- There's these new subsets of bands that are so extreme

02:00:44that they basically can't be extreme anymore

02:00:46in just that sub-genre of the metal sphere they're in.

02:00:49So like Deathcore.

02:00:50Okay, you're already as extreme as you can be.

02:00:52Like Lorna did it, you know, like, okay.

02:00:54And like Whitechapel exists, Suicide Silence,

02:00:56and like there's all these new bands, right?

02:00:58So a band like Disembodied Tyrant is like,

02:00:59well, we're doing that,

02:01:00but now we're also gonna have like dubstep moments.

02:01:03So we're gonna take, we're gonna do-

02:01:04- The heaviest thing of a different heavy genre

02:01:06and put it into our heavy genre.

02:01:07- Exactly.

02:01:08So like, I'm like, that's sick.

02:01:10Or Marar, which is this smaller, thal band.

02:01:12Like bands like Valjarta, Jumea's Last Breath.

02:01:14I don't know if you know Buster, he also has Throne.

02:01:17Throne you might.

02:01:17- Yeah, I know Throne.

02:01:18- Okay, he's the drummer and songwriter also with that band.

02:01:20And his like more progressive bands are Jumea's Last Breath

02:01:23and Valjarta.

02:01:24And Thal is this genre which is like super gent.

02:01:28- Okay.

02:01:29- It's, man, I'm gonna be such a fucking weirdo

02:01:32trying to explain this of like-

02:01:33- That's what we're here for.

02:01:34- I will explain Thal on your podcast, yeah, I got you.

02:01:36So gent was da da da da da, I'm a sugar.

02:01:39Okay, cool.

02:01:40Then after time kids got bored of da da da da da da da da

02:01:42and became da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.

02:01:47- Periphery?

02:01:49- No, 'cause periphery da da da da da da da da da da.

02:01:52- Okay.

02:01:53- So it's more of a rhythmic group thing where that genre,

02:01:56Thal kind of took all those elements,

02:01:59added more of an atmospheric element,

02:02:01dialed down the polyrhythmic confusing rhythms

02:02:04and made it more-

02:02:05- Less mathy.

02:02:05- Less mathy, exactly.

02:02:06More of like group.

02:02:07Funny enough, more extreme yet more accessible,

02:02:10which is ironic, I would say.

02:02:12So there's bands that do that.

02:02:14I've been doing that for a while.

02:02:14And then there's a band like this small band, Marar,

02:02:16which they took that and they're like,

02:02:18oh, Dubstep's sick.

02:02:18Oh, I love like Beethoven.

02:02:20And so they infuse, you know what I mean?

02:02:22So they infuse that with these sounds.

02:02:24And it's like a whole nother world of like music.

02:02:27And not just as a music fan,

02:02:28but as a musician and a guitarist,

02:02:30I sit there like dumbfounded of like-

02:02:32- It's fucking cool.

02:02:33- This is so sick.

02:02:35So that aspect excites me because music is so heavy now.

02:02:38Bands are literally trying to find, you know,

02:02:41more excitement and heaviness in weird places,

02:02:43which will make more unique music as at the same time,

02:02:46it's becoming more sterile and streamlined.

02:02:48- Yeah, that's a great point, dude.

02:02:49A fucking fantastic answer.

02:02:51I think it's kind of surprising

02:02:53because everybody can reach the market freely.

02:02:58There are no, if you don't,

02:02:59you don't even need a record label.

02:03:00You can just put same as me with the podcast.

02:03:02I've never been a part of the network.

02:03:03- You need TikTok.

02:03:04- Yeah, exactly.

02:03:05Just put it up.

02:03:06And that would suggest that things would get more weird

02:03:08and more niched.

02:03:09But as people sort of take their eyes

02:03:11off the ball of mainstream,

02:03:12what that means is the people who can get there

02:03:14have even more prestige.

02:03:16Because I always say this about mainstream TV.

02:03:18People think that it's like lame stream, it's old school.

02:03:22No one gives a fuck about CBS or 60 Minutes or whatever.

02:03:25And you go, hey, there is an unlimited amount of YouTube

02:03:29that gets uploaded every single day.

02:03:30There are only 24 hours a day on MSNBC or CNBC or Fox

02:03:34or whatever.

02:03:35If you take up 15 of those minutes,

02:03:37that's 15 minutes not going to something or someone else.

02:03:39That means that you have value in a way

02:03:42that simply uploading a YouTube video doesn't.

02:03:45It's cool and subversive and rebellious, man.

02:03:48And there's no fucking person telling me what to say.

02:03:50And that's sick about the YouTube thing,

02:03:53but it's a little prestige for precisely the same reason.

02:03:56Anyone can do it.

02:03:57So anyone can do it.

02:03:59And I think that this is sort of the bifurcation

02:04:02of what you're seeing here.

02:04:02It's like, who is going to be placed on the new Madden game?

02:04:07Like who's going to be in that?

02:04:08Yeah.

02:04:09- For sure.

02:04:10- Of course.

02:04:11Who is going to get to play the Grammys?

02:04:14Who is going to get to play at the BAFTAs?

02:04:16Who's going to get to play these different award ceremonies

02:04:19and who's going to get put on radio?

02:04:20And if you manage to do that,

02:04:22because so many people are looking

02:04:24toward the independent side,

02:04:25that is going to create an incentive.

02:04:27So I think you're right.

02:04:28But you're going to end up with sort of two scenes

02:04:30splintering off in additional directions.

02:04:33- Yeah.

02:04:34And I hope the middle scene embraces it too

02:04:36when it comes to those smaller bands,

02:04:38because there's so much smaller music now

02:04:40and smaller underground bands.

02:04:42And what happens with the middle scene,

02:04:43and it happens with bands like Sleep Token,

02:04:45with bands like Spirit Box, even with Bad Omens,

02:04:47anytime these bands,

02:04:48when they're kind of small and underground,

02:04:51they have that moment.

02:04:52Like Sleep Token had the summoning, right?

02:04:53All of a sudden, yo, this band's like,

02:04:56oh, you know, they're not that good.

02:04:58- They sold out.

02:04:59It was cool to hate.

02:05:00The fact that it's fucking cool to hate Sleep Token

02:05:02fucking blows my mind, dude.

02:05:04Give me a break.

02:05:05- Well, it's funny particularly

02:05:07because their discography is not metal really, right?

02:05:11It is, they're more of a pop leaning band

02:05:14with metal elements, which is great.

02:05:17So I think because metal head's almost like,

02:05:20we're like, you're ours.

02:05:21You know what I mean?

02:05:22Like you're, this is ours.

02:05:22Like this is sick.

02:05:23You know, we can listen to pop with it too.

02:05:26That when they do the pop stuff,

02:05:28particularly like with their new record right there,

02:05:29even Arcadia, definitely more pop leaning.

02:05:31That was great.

02:05:32Had like top 50 bangers,

02:05:33but then also had some of the most extreme,

02:05:35I'm gonna use the word extreme instead of heavy,

02:05:37extreme moments, right?

02:05:38And because of that correlation between those two things

02:05:42and like the scene being like,

02:05:43well, no, you're ours.

02:05:46We made you big.

02:05:47You know, you did that thing

02:05:48and then we all were in on it.

02:05:50- Serve us what we want.

02:05:50- Yeah, so like, no, you're not allowed to now

02:05:53like be just like a band.

02:05:55You're our metal band or you're not.

02:05:58You know what I mean?

02:05:58Or we hate you and you're just some shitty pop band.

02:06:00- I also think a lot of criticism came from the mainstream

02:06:04of saying this is shitty mainstream music.

02:06:06I can't remember who the guy was.

02:06:07Maybe in the Times, it was a British reporter

02:06:10who did a review of the album.

02:06:12It was album of the year,

02:06:12but he said it was like the worst thing he's ever heard.

02:06:15Like, dude, it made me sad.

02:06:19Especially, we can cut this if this isn't known.

02:06:22Do people know that Sleep Token are from the UK?

02:06:24Do they know that they're British?

02:06:26- They have to.

02:06:28They're definitely British.

02:06:29- Fine, you said it.

02:06:30- I said it.

02:06:31Sleep Token, they're British bro.

02:06:33They're like, oh wait, fuck, I'm Canadian.

02:06:35- Bro, it's fine.

02:06:36- Yeah.

02:06:37- I'll give you license to be able to say that word.

02:06:39That's our word.

02:06:39You can culturally appropriate for the time being.

02:06:40- Okay, I got you.

02:06:41Like, hey, we're not exactly fucking showering ourselves

02:06:45in glory as a country at the moment.

02:06:47You know what I mean?

02:06:48But we should take every Grammy nomination that we can get.

02:06:51- Take the dub, dude.

02:06:52- We should take every single Grammy nomination.

02:06:54We should take all of that because it would be good.

02:06:57- Well, you guys have tons of sick metal bands,

02:06:59which is fucking crazy.

02:07:00- We're punching above our weight.

02:07:01- You have this one, I mean, okay, Loathe, Sleep Token.

02:07:04I mean, if you're classics,

02:07:06I mean, Bullet obviously is massive.

02:07:09- Architects.

02:07:10- Architects, dude.

02:07:12- Bring me President.

02:07:13- Yeah, exactly.

02:07:15- So we're ripping.

02:07:17- You guys are ripping and that's where it's like,

02:07:19that's sick.

02:07:19You know, Canada.

02:07:21Now I'm always proud of Canada 'cause Lex is on fire.

02:07:23- Are they Canadian?

02:07:24Is Dallas Green Canadian?

02:07:25- Yeah, yeah.

02:07:26I think they fucking from Hamilton.

02:07:28I might just get so roasted by all of them.

02:07:30(laughing)

02:07:31I'm pretty sure they're from fucking Hamilton.

02:07:31- They're fucking idiot, dude.

02:07:33Pittsburgh.

02:07:33- Yeah.

02:07:34(laughing)

02:07:35Dude, you're so fucking, no, they're,

02:07:37well, I know that too because you know why

02:07:39when I live in Canada my whole life.

02:07:42Canadians, you'll go at like,

02:07:43it's just a very particular scene in Toronto

02:07:46with metalheads and it's always fun.

02:07:48And when you go to shows, for some reason,

02:07:51the metalheads in Toronto lean Prague

02:07:54and like, and post hardcore.

02:07:56- Okay.

02:07:57- Out of all the things.

02:07:58- So who do they listen to?

02:07:59- So protest the hero.

02:08:00- Okay, fucking hell, that is an insane refresh poll.

02:08:03- It is.

02:08:03- Jesus Christ.

02:08:04I've listened to protest the hero in like a decade and a half.

02:08:07- Any musician I ever met that literally said

02:08:09I like heavy music or anything to play guitar,

02:08:12I was like, what's your favorite protest hero?

02:08:13No matter what.

02:08:14- Fuck.

02:08:15- Without a doubt.

02:08:16- Okay, yes, that's very proggy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:08:17- It's that and then it was Alexis on Fire.

02:08:19- Okay, fine.

02:08:20- Good.

02:08:21And then it was like, like intervals

02:08:22and like kind of like the jazz gent dudes

02:08:24from like the 2010s, you know, like that whole like,

02:08:26like sit the way plenty intervals.

02:08:28Polyphia came from that scene,

02:08:30but they're not that really sound anymore.

02:08:32So like that sound.

02:08:33And then like Billy Talent, which is not metal at all.

02:08:36- I fucking love Billy Talent.

02:08:38- Billy Talent's sick.

02:08:38- Billy Talent rules.

02:08:40- Yes, all right.

02:08:41- And I remember I did a media studies assignment in,

02:08:44like when I was 16, 17 in sixth form college

02:08:46and I did it to a Billy Talent song, so cool.

02:08:49- Dude, I used to jam like the river and like,

02:08:51what was it, I think it was Billy Talent two,

02:08:53I forgot the fucking numbers.

02:08:55Those albums like all together, nonstop bangers, man.

02:08:59- Give me, let's listen to a couple of tracks from bands

02:09:02that you think that people need to know more about.

02:09:04Like just whatever, cool.

02:09:05- I've got a couple that I want to show you.

02:09:07- Oh shit, I mean, you did Alexis, so like, I'm happy.

02:09:11- Well, that's fucking cool.

02:09:13That's nice to be able to throw that back.

02:09:15- Yeah.

02:09:15- But yeah, who else, what else should we look at?

02:09:17- I mean, Billy Talent has some bangers

02:09:20and I don't think in America they're very well known,

02:09:23which is always weird to me 'cause they're a big band,

02:09:25but anytime you talk to someone from a try honesty,

02:09:29I think probably Fallen Leaves

02:09:31is probably like they're like a little edgier banger, yeah.

02:09:35- This sound dude, so cool.

02:09:38- The guitarist is so sick in this fucking band.

02:09:45You can tell that's like a death metal dude

02:09:48that was like, you know what?

02:09:49I just want to play like punk shit instead.

02:09:51- That's a fucking hell of a head of photo.

02:09:53- Yeah.

02:09:54- Oh dude, I'm back in middle school

02:10:01in the fucking frozen north.

02:10:02Hey there bud, go to Timmy's for lunch break, dude.

02:10:06- All right.

02:10:07All right.

02:10:09- You gotta hit me, you gotta hit me with one.

02:10:09- All right.

02:10:10- Are you not going to get like a thousand copyright claims?

02:10:12- I don't care, I don't care.

02:10:14- Dude, respect man.

02:10:16- Holy Water, are you familiar with Holy Water?

02:10:17- No, I don't know Holy Water.

02:10:18- Oh, so they just released their album.

02:10:22- Is this a new band?

02:10:23- On Friday, they supported Architects, bro.

02:10:26Fucking three quarters of a mil.

02:10:27Now, what do I like from this?

02:10:32So this is the new album and the most interesting track,

02:10:35probably give me a show.

02:10:36I'll show you this cause it goes pretty hard,

02:10:37but then we'll listen to a bit of Nightmaster.

02:10:39- Okay, okay.

02:10:40Yeah, I've never heard of this band.

02:10:42- So they supported Architects.

02:10:44Were they, they were second support,

02:10:47so fucking Arrow were first support.

02:10:49- Oh yeah.

02:10:50- And I saw them in Houston

02:10:51and these guys are really fucking cool.

02:10:53- It's like that progressive metal quarry space.

02:10:56- It's just, I don't know, they did a...

02:10:59Yeah, so this came out April 17th.

02:11:02This is why I asked you whether or not you'd,

02:11:04how much you listened to it for the weekend.

02:11:06I was like, "Fuck, I hope he hasn't listened to the new..."

02:11:08- No, I haven't listened to this.

02:11:10Oh shit, dude, we back in the 2000s.

02:11:17Fuck yeah.

02:11:18That is a kid that grew up,

02:11:25I don't know who the fucking guitarist is.

02:11:27He grew up listening to Under Oak.

02:11:29Chasing safety.

02:11:30100%.

02:11:32- It's got a bit of shoegaze in it, which is cool.

02:11:34I mean, Deftones is sick now.

02:11:35- And then...

02:11:40- Yup.

02:11:45- Dude, fucking fire.

02:11:46So that's my first one for you.

02:11:48And the second one,

02:11:49I'm so glad that you've never heard of them.

02:11:50That's like, to be able to slipstream you

02:11:53with an unknown band, I feel like I've just fucking,

02:11:56like, I feel like I've headshotted someone

02:11:57from across the map.

02:11:58- Dude, that's a...

02:11:59- I've just fired a bullet randomly and it's gone punk.

02:12:03- No scope, bro.

02:12:05- Say six.

02:12:07- I know say six.

02:12:07- Oh, I thought I got two for two.

02:12:08- Yeah, do Thalen B Kaur.

02:12:10- Fuck.

02:12:11- So okay, the guitar types of style that they have,

02:12:13that's particularly the metal aspect, that's Thal.

02:12:16- Right.

02:12:16- That shit.

02:12:18- Yeah.

02:12:19- They're sick.

02:12:20- What do I like from this?

02:12:21So I think the Devotion's just so,

02:12:24I mean, what would you call this genre?

02:12:26'Cause this is very...

02:12:27- Thalen B.

02:12:29- Really?

02:12:29- Or modern.

02:12:30This is the thing, there's so many stupid genre names

02:12:31that it's all modern metal, basically.

02:12:33But yeah, Thalen B, 'cause it's Thal with R and B.

02:12:36- It's like, how token inspired is all of this stuff?

02:12:39Or is it before that?

02:12:41- It's, the token did many coins, bro.

02:12:44- So cool.

02:12:50All right, give me one more from you.

02:12:51- Okay, I have to show you Marar now.

02:12:53'Cause this is...

02:12:54- How do I spell it?

02:12:55- M-I-R-A-R.

02:12:57I gotta show you these guys.

02:12:58These are fucking, okay, yeah.

02:13:01So, classical dubstep thal.

02:13:04- Okay, I like this cover on.

02:13:07- They literally take old school paintings and shit.

02:13:10I don't know if they draw it

02:13:10or they just take it from the internet

02:13:11'cause it's no longer copyright.

02:13:13- 50K monthlies is a fucking good pull.

02:13:15- Yeah.

02:13:16Oh dude, they're so sick.

02:13:20It's just two dudes.

02:13:23Two dudes, no vocals.

02:13:25- Oh, okay.

02:13:26(dramatic music)

02:13:32- That's a guitar.

02:13:33He's making that noise with a fucking guitar.

02:13:37It's fucking nutty.

02:13:48(laughing)

02:13:59- All right, that's sick.

02:14:00All right, what else?

02:14:01- You have to go to the drop.

02:14:02- Where is it?

02:14:03- It's a little, 130, 130.

02:14:07130.

02:14:08- I'll leave it blank.

02:14:11- Okay.

02:14:12It's one of those where it is one of the coolest moments

02:14:15I've heard in music in the past like 10 years

02:14:17that like, it's simple,

02:14:19but you'll hear the electronic element to it.

02:14:21But it's so fucking extreme.

02:14:23This is two nerdy kids.

02:14:25- What a nationality of it.

02:14:31I think Leo is French and Marius is,

02:14:35oh God, Swedish or Finn, Norway.

02:14:39One of them's one of the Scandinavian.

02:14:40I think, I think sweet.

02:14:41Right here.

02:14:42This will get you the extra pump at the gym.

02:14:44I don't give a fuck how heavy it is.

02:14:46(dramatic music)

02:15:01(upbeat music)

02:15:03- A guitar, psycho.

02:15:06- Yeah, that's crazy.

02:15:07That's fucking insane.

02:15:08- Yeah.

02:15:09- All right, what else?

02:15:09One more.

02:15:10- Oh shit.

02:15:11Okay, do you know Boundaries?

02:15:12- No.

02:15:13- Okay, I got to show you Boundaries.

02:15:14So it's, they're a mix of kind of like that 2000 nostalgic

02:15:18stuff with a very modern, heavy edge.

02:15:20You want something more melodic or heavy?

02:15:24- Let's go melodic.

02:15:25- Easily erased, second one.

02:15:28(upbeat music)

02:15:29- Very melodic.

02:15:30- It has a chorus at least.

02:15:32(laughing)

02:15:33(upbeat music)

02:15:36- He goes for it, dude.

02:15:47(upbeat music)

02:15:50- Two singers?

02:15:58- Yeah, the drummer is clean singing and then the vocalist

02:16:00is screaming.

02:16:01- Right, okay.

02:16:02- Yeah.

02:16:03(upbeat music)

02:16:06- You got the ambience, you got like the melodic kind

02:16:09of hardcore metal core vibes and then you get screaming.

02:16:12It's very that and then breakdowns all that shit, dude.

02:16:17- Dude, very good.

02:16:19Very good.

02:16:20The scene continues to live on as fucking old as we get.

02:16:22- Hell yeah, dude.

02:16:23- Bro, I think you fucking rule.

02:16:25I love your stuff.

02:16:26I'm so glad that you're back.

02:16:27I'm glad you took a break, but I'm also glad that you're back.

02:16:30So where should people go to check out all the shit

02:16:32that you've got going on?

02:16:34- You'll probably be forced to see my face

02:16:36if you listen to Breakdown somewhere.

02:16:37Unfortunately, on the internet,

02:16:38my dumb ass face will pop up going, ooh!

02:16:40But yeah, @nicknocturnal on everything.

02:16:42And I'm gonna, I don't know when you guys drop these,

02:16:45but like in a week or two,

02:16:46we're just getting the studio ready

02:16:47and we're gonna be doing this crazy concept of,

02:16:51actually what I was saying earlier,

02:16:52when I was doing the How to Metal thing.

02:16:53- That's right.

02:16:54- We're gonna be writing songs every day on stream

02:16:57from start to finish with crazy rave lights controlled

02:17:01with the actual songs.

02:17:03And basically that is gonna be just content.

02:17:05Write an entire banger every single day, live, no bullshit.

02:17:08No, that's why there's no anything in the background.

02:17:11It's just write the banger right there from start to finish.

02:17:13- And you're gonna release them?

02:17:15- If people want them enough.

02:17:16So it's gonna be based fully on demand.

02:17:17So I'll probably put them on, like, I don't know,

02:17:18if someone wants to go get on,

02:17:20like I'll put the demos, whatever, on a Patreon.

02:17:22Someone, hey, go, there you go.

02:17:23Listen to them if you really like them.

02:17:24But like, if it's a song, you know, again,

02:17:27that people are like, yo, full right now, like go right now,

02:17:30full campaign, I'll do the music video in the fucking room

02:17:32or like in, you know, in the swamp in Florida,

02:17:34we'll figure it out, dude.

02:17:35- It's the best idea, I really think,

02:17:37because I would love to see what goes into making a track

02:17:39from start to finish and the fact that you can do,

02:17:41you're doing it with your missus.

02:17:43- Some of them I will.

02:17:43I told them, 'cause my wife,

02:17:45she used to do the content creation stuff a lot more,

02:17:46but she used to do it in Brazil.

02:17:48It's 'cause she speaks mainly Portuguese.

02:17:49She speaks English very well though.

02:17:50But like, you know, she just wants to make music.

02:17:52She's not a talker in terms of-

02:17:54- Bring her in, hey, she can be the fucking workhorse.

02:17:57Come up with some nice riffs.

02:17:58Do some of that stuff for me.

02:17:59I'll explain what's going on.

02:18:00- Well, she's gonna be producing and doing her own stuff.

02:18:02So I told her, I was like, yo,

02:18:02so you're gonna make beats in this shit

02:18:04and do shorts or whatever you wanna do, right?

02:18:05'Cause she wants to like also do, she writes.

02:18:07We both write.

02:18:08I'm like, great, write thing.

02:18:09And then when something goes crazy

02:18:11and you wanna do it together, let's go.

02:18:13We'll do it together on stream.

02:18:14And yeah, it'll be crazy.

02:18:15- Dude, I'm really happy for you.

02:18:16I'm really happy for you.

02:18:17When you left the world of metal and the scene,

02:18:21you basically got eulogies from some of the biggest guys

02:18:24in all of metal, which was pretty hilarious.

02:18:26It was like you died, kind of.

02:18:28- Yeah, they never talked to me while I was there,

02:18:29but yeah, exactly.

02:18:30That's how it goes.

02:18:31- Well, you're back, you're back.

02:18:32And I'm glad that you're back and you're fucking awesome, dude.

02:18:34So let's do this again.

02:18:35- Of course, thank you for having me.

02:18:36I love what you do.

02:18:37- I love you, bro.

02:18:38All right, goodbye everybody.

02:18:39- Goodbye.

02:18:40- Thank you very much for tuning in.

02:18:46If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply.

02:18:51It thinks you're going to like this one even more.

02:18:54Go on, press it.

Key Takeaway

TikTok has fundamentally altered metal music by forcing artists to prioritize high-impact, 15-second climaxes and 'short-form first' songwriting over traditional long-term replayability.

Highlights

TikTok shifts music consumption from full-song engagement to 'clip farming,' where listeners prioritize immediate payoffs like breakdowns or vocal gymnastics.
Bands now utilize 'short-form first' songwriting by composing climactic moments first and building the rest of the track backward to suit social media algorithms.
Modern metal production increasingly relies on sound design, layering over 75 synth tracks on top of guitars to create a wide, cinematic sonic profile.
Organic success on social media requires masking the intent; if a song appears engineered specifically for TikTok, it often undermines the artist's perceived authenticity.
The 'Trend Simulation' marketing strategy involves record labels seeding networks of burner accounts to fabricate discourse and drive songs into recommendation algorithms.
A 360-degree record deal can legally bind a band to deliver five or more albums, effectively claiming over a decade of an artist's career and revenue.

Timeline

The Shift to Clip Farming and Instant Payoffs

TikTok enforces a consumption model where listeners receive the 'punch line' of a song without the build-up.
Modern metal thrives in this environment due to its abundance of high-skill moments like technical breakdowns and extreme vocal textures.
Social media discovery has moved from intentional searching on platforms like YouTube to passive 'doom scrolling' encounters.

The instant gratification of short-form video parallels the jump scare in a horror movie, providing an immediate intrigue that bypasses the need to listen to a full three-minute track. This dynamic has helped push extreme metal genres into a more normalized, mainstream audience. However, the focus on 'moments' rather than cohesive songs can lead to a lack of long-term replayability once the initial viral hype subsides.

Short-Form First Songwriting and Industry Engineering

Bands now curate specific three-segment tracks designed specifically to seed early internet memes.
The modern songwriting process often begins at the breakdown or climactic moment rather than the intro.
Writing music specifically for social media often results in poor quality songs that fail to become 'timeless'.

Record labels and artists are increasingly attuned to the necessity of creating segments that work well when laid over video content. While some bands like Knocked Loose achieve success naturally due to their high-intensity pacing, others attempt to 'fugazi' or trick the audience into engagement. This engineered approach often undermines the music's authenticity and leads to 'meme songs' that people add to playlists for the joke rather than the musical quality.

The Evolution of Metal Production and Genre Fluidity

The 2000s era of Deathcore and Metalcore is experiencing a major revival driven by TikTok trends.
Modern production has shifted from 'riff-first' composition to complex sound design involving massive synth layering.
Collaborations with outside producers like Mick Gordon have expanded the sonic width of traditional metal albums.

Early 2000s metal was characterized by a sense of freedom and experimentation because defined sub-genre terms like 'Deathcore' did not yet carry rigid expectations. Today, artists like Bring Me The Horizon and Architects use sophisticated mastering and production to blend R&B, shoegaze, and electronic elements into heavy music. This 'genre fluidity' is a hallmark of 2020s metal, moving away from the fragmented 'dance breaks' seen in the 2010s Rise Records era.

Marketing Psyops and the Industry Plant Discourse

Marketing firms use 'Trend Simulation' to drive impressions through thousands of coordinated social media pages.
Fabricated discourse and burner account interactions can make a band's rise appear entirely organic to the average fan.
The metal community is particularly sensitive to 'industry plant' accusations due to their high level of personal and financial investment in artists.

The rise of the band Geese serves as a case study for engineered virality, where a marketing firm admitted to using digital networks to push the band into the algorithm. This practice has become the minimum requirement for cutting through digital noise in a saturated market. For metal fans, who often view their support as a personal bond with the band, discovering that a rise was manufactured can feel like a personal insult.

The Reality of Creator Burnout and Digital Isolation

Digital content creators experience burnout at higher rates than touring bands due to the isolation of the job.
Bands receive immediate, high-amplitude feedback from live crowds, whereas creators receive low-amplitude 'bleeps and bloops' on a screen.
The 'always-on' nature of social media platforms creates a self-rewarding circuit that prevents creators from finding life balance.

Despite the physical comfort of working from home, content creators often lack the camaraderie and shared experiences that sustain touring musicians. This isolation is compounded by the fact that a creator's self-worth becomes tied to fluctuating metrics, making every underperforming video feel like a personal failure. Achieving 'Fuck You Family' status—where the opinions of close relatives outweigh industry recognition—is the ultimate exit strategy for long-term creators.

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