00:00:00you say that cultures flourish by exploiting men.
00:00:04What's that mean?
00:00:05- Well, there are multiple aspects to it,
00:00:10but first of all, men are more expendable than women,
00:00:15probably for basic biological reasons.
00:00:18If a small group loses half its men,
00:00:21the next generation can still be full size.
00:00:23Loses half its women, it'll be a long time to recover.
00:00:27So it risks men.
00:00:30A lot poach men to work to produce things.
00:00:34Most of the structures of society are really created by men.
00:00:39I was talking to Carol Hovind at Harvard,
00:00:45and she said there was a feminist who had an epiphany.
00:00:49One point she was looking out the window and said,
00:00:51"The whole world is built by men."
00:00:53Look at the buildings and the roads and the cars
00:00:58and all those things, and that's just the physical world,
00:01:03the institutions too, the banks and the schools
00:01:08and the armies and the governments and the marketplaces.
00:01:14Women do plenty of wonderful things,
00:01:17and they're important partners
00:01:19in the flourishing of our species.
00:01:22But creating large social systems,
00:01:24that seems always to be the men's job.
00:01:28And so our cultures compete against other cultures,
00:01:32which is mostly groups of men
00:01:34competing against other groups of men.
00:01:36Now women have joined the groups in many places,
00:01:39but still the institutional structures are created by men.
00:01:44- Why is it the case that men have been overrepresented
00:01:47as the builders in that case,
00:01:49both cognitively, systemically, physically?
00:01:58Why is it that it's 'cause men do those things
00:02:03and women don't?
00:02:05What I realized fairly early on,
00:02:09and I have some publications of this,
00:02:11and it was an early part of my thinking,
00:02:14is that the way people are being social,
00:02:17there are a couple ways.
00:02:18There's interacting one-to-one,
00:02:20or there's doing things in large groups.
00:02:23I noticed this 'cause in my field, social psychology,
00:02:25people were starting to say women are more social than men,
00:02:28because they're really invested in the relationships,
00:02:32the one-to-one relationships,
00:02:34which is a big area of study in my field.
00:02:37But if you start looking at things that people do in groups,
00:02:40men do those much more than women.
00:02:46And I think, probably again, it's a innate tendency.
00:02:51The most important relationship in biology
00:02:55is the mother-to-child one.
00:02:58And so that's a one-to-one relationship.
00:03:00In humans, women got particular men
00:03:05to form a one-to-one relationship with them,
00:03:09to protect and provide and do all those things,
00:03:13which really enabled the larger brain to grow
00:03:17and made everything else possible.
00:03:21Whereas men do things more in larger groups.
00:03:24And so competition between groups is men against men,
00:03:28whether it's on the battlefield
00:03:30or in the business marketplace or scientifically.
00:03:34Men compete in groups.
00:03:40It's not something that women naturally do
00:03:44and form large groups.
00:03:46There are even experiments, when I was researching this,
00:03:48they would do with children,
00:03:50and they'd have two boys playing together,
00:03:52and then the experimenter would bring in a third boy.
00:03:55And the boys would say, okay, sure, come on, join the game.
00:03:59But if it's two girls,
00:04:01they don't really want the third girl.
00:04:03They exclude her and reject her.
00:04:05Suggest there's this mental focus
00:04:08on the one-to-one relationship.
00:04:10Again, it's better for intimacy.
00:04:13A lot of the differences, psychological differences,
00:04:16between men and women can be understood this way.
00:04:20For example, most data show
00:04:21that women are more emotionally expressive than men.
00:04:25They share their feelings directly and so on.
00:04:28Well, in a one-to-one relationship,
00:04:30that's what you wanna do.
00:04:32So the other person understands you,
00:04:34so you can share your feelings,
00:04:36and the other person can take care of you
00:04:38and respond to you and so on.
00:04:40In a large group, showing your feelings all the time
00:04:43is not so useful.
00:04:44Obviously, in the economic marketplace,
00:04:46if you go, oh, this is wonderful, I gotta have it,
00:04:49well, the price is gonna be higher
00:04:51than if you say, oh, I'm not sure.
00:04:53Maybe not today.
00:04:56Wait a minute, come back, I'll give you a better deal.
00:04:58And you may have, in a large group,
00:05:01you have rivals and competitors.
00:05:05So again, you don't wanna give away too much.
00:05:07So the emotional reserve of men
00:05:10is more suited to the large group,
00:05:12where the expressiveness of the woman
00:05:15is suited to the one-to-one relationship.
00:05:19And that's why love and family and all those things,
00:05:24women are sometimes considered,
00:05:26they are the natural experts at these things.
00:05:28And some of the researchers tell the men,
00:05:32well, listen to your wife on this.
00:05:34But it also explains why women haven't ever
00:05:38organized themselves in large groups
00:05:42to get things done.
00:05:44I mean, why didn't women ever, 50 women,
00:05:47build a boat and sail off into the unknown
00:05:49to explore things.
00:05:51Men did things like this throughout history
00:05:53and all over the world.
00:05:54But you don't do that as one or two people.
00:06:00You do it in a larger group.
00:06:01So again, the men in groups seems to be a natural pattern.
00:06:08There's even some evidence about this
00:06:10in the other great apes.
00:06:13I was reading Michael Tomasello's work on there,
00:06:16and he says, well, groups of male chimpanzees
00:06:19will go out and get in a battle with others,
00:06:21or sometimes they'll go hunting together.
00:06:24It's not real cooperation, he says.
00:06:26Each one's really out for itself,
00:06:28but you have more opportunities
00:06:29if you go out in the group.
00:06:31But the females don't do that.
00:06:33He said about the only thing you see cooperation
00:06:36among adult female chimpanzees is sometimes,
00:06:39if one of them has a cute little baby,
00:06:42a couple of the other adult females will join together
00:06:45and come and go over to that woman, that ape,
00:06:48and beat her up and steal her baby and kill it and eat it.
00:06:51Which is fortunate.
00:06:53We don't seem to see much of that in our species.
00:06:56- Right.
00:06:57- We left that behind evolutionarily.
00:06:59But that's one of the only things.
00:07:01Jane Goodall in her observations had that with gorillas.
00:07:05I think also that a couple adult females
00:07:08would kill and eat all the babies.
00:07:10This was a nice, tasty snack for them.
00:07:13And with the two of them, they could overpower the mother.
00:07:17But it's obviously not productive cooperation.
00:07:23That's just taking someone's baby and eating it.
00:07:27- What about the ways that males compete and females compete?
00:07:32I have to assume that that level of competition
00:07:37drives different kinds of outcomes for each sex.
00:07:40- Yes, well, there was the idea for a long time
00:07:46that women don't compete or don't like to compete as much.
00:07:49And then they gradually realize that this is wrong.
00:07:52It's just they don't want to acknowledge it that openly.
00:07:56They do compete often for love,
00:07:59specifically for the affection and attraction
00:08:02of the most desirable men.
00:08:06But that often can't be acknowledged.
00:08:08It's done sometimes by blackening the reputation
00:08:10of the other woman and spreading negative stories about her.
00:08:15Even some of those, my former PhD student, Tanya Reynolds,
00:08:21who's really made a terrific career
00:08:25studying female competition in evolutionary context.
00:08:32In one of her experiments, she wanted to see
00:08:36will there be gossip used?
00:08:38Will women just spontaneously gossip about someone else?
00:08:42So she had people come in, told to women
00:08:44to work on a project together.
00:08:47And so she leaves them alone and they're working.
00:08:49And then the one who's actually a research assistant
00:08:53who's working, pretending to be a subject and experiment,
00:08:56but she's actually following a script.
00:08:59And she says, oh, I just can't do this today.
00:09:03I don't feel good.
00:09:04I drank too much last night.
00:09:06I think I hooked up with two different guys last night.
00:09:09So she delivers this very juicy tidbit and then they go on.
00:09:14And then that woman leaves and then in comes another woman,
00:09:18who is another real subject.
00:09:19And the question is, does the woman repeat this,
00:09:22this gossip about her?
00:09:25Well, it turned out what they also made
00:09:27is the woman who made this disclosure, sometimes she was
00:09:30dressed really sexy and hot and looked very nice,
00:09:33and sometimes she just looked like a mess.
00:09:35It was not very attractive.
00:09:37Well, when she was attractive, so she energized
00:09:42the woman's competitive gears, then they gossiped.
00:09:46Then they said, so-and-so hooked up with two men last night.
00:09:51But Tania also noticed, and other research by her
00:09:56has borne this out.
00:09:57They don't do it in a seemingly malicious way.
00:10:01They say, oh, I was really concerned about so-and-so.
00:10:04I wonder, there's a problem.
00:10:06She said she hooked up with two different men last night.
00:10:09I must be bad for her.
00:10:10I'm kind of worried about her.
00:10:12So the negative information gets spread.
00:10:14And remember, why would you only worry
00:10:16about the well-dressed attractive woman?
00:10:18Why would you worry about the other woman?
00:10:21But that shows the competitive edge to it.
00:10:27So anyway, there is competition
00:10:31among women in the romantic sphere.
00:10:35Most studies look in terms of career stuff.
00:10:39Now, I have to say, when we talk about differences
00:10:42between men and women,
00:10:43we're talking overlapping distributions.
00:10:46So the difference between the average man
00:10:48and the average woman is real,
00:10:50but it might be fairly small
00:10:52compared to the variety within women.
00:10:54I've known some extremely competitive women
00:10:57and some extremely not competitive women,
00:10:59and on average, women are less ambitious, too.
00:11:04Probably evolutionary people talk about it
00:11:08that we're descended from men
00:11:11that really the top male got to do most of the reproducing.
00:11:14So in, say, the other great apes,
00:11:18and even in polygamy,
00:11:20which has existed in the majority of cultures
00:11:22in the history of the world,
00:11:23one man with multiple wives,
00:11:25well, that's the rich, successful man,
00:11:28and he gets to have multiple wives and multiple children,
00:11:33which means a lot of men don't get any wives.
00:11:35So the drive to get to the top,
00:11:40we're descended from the man who did it.
00:11:43A man may have been pretty smart,
00:11:45but he didn't care about outdoing all the others,
00:11:47or he might have been very physically strong
00:11:48and didn't care about that.
00:11:50Well, then he didn't rise to the top,
00:11:52didn't pass on his genes, we're descended from the ones
00:11:55who really did try to compete.
00:11:59It's part of people bringing this up.
00:12:01I've been thinking about the great inflation issues
00:12:04and problems recently,
00:12:05and it disengages the young men,
00:12:08'cause my wife explained this to me once.
00:12:11She said, "Well, the woman wants to get an A,
00:12:13"and she doesn't really mind if everybody else gets an A, too."
00:12:16As for the man, it can't be better than the other people.
00:12:21What's the point?
00:12:21Everybody gets an A.
00:12:22- So interesting.
00:12:24- Yeah, it doesn't engage them in the same way.
00:12:27And so our schools, which are now run mainly by women,
00:12:29are failing all students,
00:12:32but they're especially failing the boys.
00:12:35That seems to be it.
00:12:36And this is--
00:12:36- Because they're driven more hierarchically.
00:12:39- Yes, definitely more hierarchy.
00:12:41I remember reading, too, back in the '80s
00:12:43when women started really moving up in the businesses,
00:12:47in the organizations that men created.
00:12:50There was a lot of simplification.
00:12:52One estimate that stuck in my mind
00:12:55was the average male business hierarchy
00:12:57had seven different levels of authority.
00:13:00And once women became influential in it,
00:13:03they cut it to about four.
00:13:04So they don't like as much hierarchy.
00:13:08They favor more equality.
00:13:10And there are reasons for that, too,
00:13:16that you can argue about.
00:13:17But competition is about hierarchy.
00:13:20And so it's hard to, the men want to do it.
00:13:23You want to be the number one.
00:13:25- Historically, how much of male achievement
00:13:27do you think was driven by the desire to attract women?
00:13:30- Well, a lot.
00:13:35The evolutionary people would say,
00:13:38I mean, that might not be the thing that's in their mind,
00:13:41but the evolutionists say,
00:13:42well, that is what drives everything.
00:13:43I mean, maybe some men want to succeed
00:13:46because they want money.
00:13:48But the people would say,
00:13:50well, why does the man want money so much?
00:13:53It's because that's what attracts the women.
00:13:55So it's, I'm not one of these people
00:14:02that evolution explains everything,
00:14:04but it certainly is the starting point and explains a lot.
00:14:07- I think I'm interested in whether or not,
00:14:13to what extent female mate choice sort of shapes
00:14:16male ambition.
00:14:18You know, we're talking about this hierarchical sense.
00:14:21You've already mentioned that there's a relatively limited
00:14:25pool of men typically that reproduce
00:14:27and a bigger pool of women.
00:14:28I think it's about 40% of men ancestrally reproduced
00:14:32and about 80% of women.
00:14:33So you've got twice as many female ancestors
00:14:36as male ancestors.
00:14:37And if you've got that plus competition,
00:14:41plus big group coordination, plus a preference for hierarchy,
00:14:46you can begin to see how the pyramid
00:14:47becomes pretty pyramidy.
00:14:50- Yes, yeah.
00:14:52I mean, there was an interesting interlude
00:14:53during the hunter-gatherers in which there was equality
00:14:57and they really resisted the hierarchy.
00:14:59This was part of the transition away
00:15:01from the apes kind of society that they did it.
00:15:07But I've talked to a couple of people who studied hunter-gatherers
00:15:12and well, is it true they're all equal?
00:15:14Yes, but she said, but the women all know
00:15:17who's the best hunter and they all want him
00:15:20for their partner.
00:15:23Even though the food is shared,
00:15:25it does look like the best hunter.
00:15:29Everybody makes sure to be nice to him and his family.
00:15:33So they do get more food.
00:15:35And of course, if push came to shove,
00:15:37having the best hunter as your partner
00:15:41would make sure you're less likely to starve or go hungry.
00:15:46You and your children are less likely
00:15:49than if you have a third rate hunter as your partner.
00:15:52- Yeah, I guess, why is it the case
00:15:56that men are overrepresented
00:15:58at both the top and the bottom of society?
00:16:03- All right, well, that was another thing I emphasized
00:16:06in the book.
00:16:07The complaints or the feminists looked at the top
00:16:10and say, oh, well, the presidents and the governors
00:16:13and the executives are mostly men,
00:16:16must be great to be a man.
00:16:18But I said, well, but look at the bottom of society,
00:16:20who's in prison, who's homeless,
00:16:22who's a cannon fodder being killed in battle,
00:16:27that you see mostly men there.
00:16:29Now, why that is,
00:16:33that's a more difficult question to answer.
00:16:38For one thing, though, there's more variability among men.
00:16:43Men are more different from other men
00:16:46than women are from other women.
00:16:49So it's even true with basic things like height.
00:16:52Obviously, on average, men are taller than women.
00:16:55But there are a lot of pretty short men,
00:17:00and the distribution is flatter, as we say.
00:17:03They're more really tall and really short men
00:17:07than really tall and really short women,
00:17:09even though the average is different.
00:17:11The average is, the difference in average
00:17:14is much smaller with intelligence.
00:17:16But the same thing, you see more males at both extremes.
00:17:20We have more data at the bottom end,
00:17:22'cause people have done decades of studying research
00:17:25on mental retardation.
00:17:27And as you move from the mild to the moderate
00:17:31to the severely retarded, the sex ratio becomes more skewed,
00:17:35more and more boys at each level.
00:17:39And there's less at the other end,
00:17:40but it's the same thing as you move from mildly genius
00:17:43to moderate genius to super genius, again.
00:17:46(laughing)
00:17:46- What's the idea of a super genius again?
00:17:49- Yeah.
00:17:49- Yeah.
00:17:50- The super high IQ, this is Lawrence Summers
00:17:56at the Harvard meeting.
00:17:59They asked how come there aren't a lot of math
00:18:01and physics professors at Harvard who are women?
00:18:03And he said, and he was right.
00:18:06If you have to be just super intelligent
00:18:10to be able to work at that kind of level,
00:18:12there are more men there.
00:18:14And people got all upset and it led to his downfall.
00:18:18They thought he was saying men are smarter than women,
00:18:21which is not what he was saying.
00:18:22He was just saying there's more variability.
00:18:25So again, if you look at the bottom end
00:18:28of the intelligence distribution, men predominate more.
00:18:33So--
00:18:33- It wouldn't have got the rankled groups in the same way
00:18:37if he'd said there's more stupid men
00:18:40than there are stupid women.
00:18:41- Yeah, nobody minds that to it.
00:18:44It's this feminist control.
00:18:47Now why that is, why men are more variable,
00:18:50I have a pet theory.
00:18:52I've talked to some biologists.
00:18:53They said it's plausible.
00:18:55We don't know that it's true.
00:18:57- Speculative bro science is very welcome.
00:19:00I'm very excited to hear this.
00:19:03- Well, the man has the XY chromosome, the woman has XX.
00:19:08So producing something new,
00:19:12there's a mutation on the chromosome.
00:19:15There's something goes wrong
00:19:17and produces a different variation.
00:19:21And there's a question, does that then show up in behavior?
00:19:25Do the genes show up in the physical properties?
00:19:29Well, for the woman with the X chromosome,
00:19:31there's always a backup.
00:19:33So even if something goes wrong on one of the little
00:19:37weirdnesses or one of the branches of the X,
00:19:42there is only a 50/50 chance that we'll get through
00:19:45and maybe even less than that.
00:19:47Maybe the healthy one takes over or something.
00:19:50So there are less few,
00:19:54but nature can roll the dice more easily with men
00:19:56'cause if it happens on the bottom part of the Y
00:20:00where there's no backup,
00:20:01then that will more likely come true.
00:20:04It's certainly adaptive in a way
00:20:06that evolutionarily successful for nature
00:20:09to gamble with men more than women
00:20:11because a lot of men don't reproduce at all.
00:20:16And most mutations are bad.
00:20:17Most mutations are not an improvement.
00:20:20And so you want that flushed out of the gene pool right away
00:20:24if there's a bad mutation.
00:20:25Well, that's easy with the men
00:20:26since most men don't reproduce anyway.
00:20:28- Such a good, yeah, I totally.
00:20:31What's that line about men and natures play things?
00:20:34- Yeah, that's-- - I hadn't realized.
00:20:37That's yours? - Yeah.
00:20:38- Ah, I love quoting someone to them
00:20:40when I didn't realize it was them.
00:20:42- And it works the other way too at the other end
00:20:45because a woman can't really have more
00:20:48than about a dozen children,
00:20:49but there are men who have hundreds.
00:20:53And so if you have a good mutation,
00:20:55then you want it to spread through the gene pool, right?
00:20:57That's how evolution makes progress.
00:21:01And so the bad mutations are gone in one generation
00:21:05and the good ones spread more.
00:21:08- We'll get back to talking in just one second.
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00:22:12Are the biggest differences between men and women,
00:22:14do you think, in terms of motivations or ability?
00:22:21- Motivations, I tend to favor ability.
00:22:26Throwing things is the biggest thing, I guess.
00:22:29(laughing)
00:22:31And ability is superior.
00:22:32- It also includes on that, I'm sure that you've seen this,
00:22:36but it also includes dodging things.
00:22:38It's not just throwing things, it's also dodging things.
00:22:40So there's a study done, one of the problems you have
00:22:44when you're looking at throwing accuracy,
00:22:48you have different articulations of the shoulder capsule,
00:22:50you have different lengths of the forearm.
00:22:53It's very difficult to not have young boys
00:22:56spend the entire first decade of their life
00:22:59picking up stones and throwing them.
00:23:01Girls don't do it in quite the same way.
00:23:03So how are you gonna control for physiological differences,
00:23:06structural differences, biomechanics,
00:23:08just conditioning of I threw lots of stones when I was five.
00:23:12So one of the ways that they tried to control for this
00:23:15was instead of it being about throwing, it was about dodging.
00:23:19And this was, I don't know how this got past an ethics board.
00:23:21They took one of those tennis ball serving cannons
00:23:26that gets used so that they can fire tennis balls
00:23:29across a court.
00:23:30And they had males and females try to get out of the way.
00:23:35And in the male cohorts, they didn't get hit once.
00:23:39And in the female cohorts, they got hit,
00:23:41they were peppered quite a few times.
00:23:43And I think that is the same spatial rotation,
00:23:47like the ability to understand things in space.
00:23:50- That could be.
00:23:51My friend Ron Hippel has made a big emphasis
00:23:54that coordinated strong throwing
00:23:57was one of the key early human group traits.
00:24:02Because if you're in the wild and there's a lion,
00:24:06you and your stone are not likely to get very far.
00:24:12But if there are 10 of you, you all throw stones
00:24:15and some of them will hit, enough of them will get home.
00:24:18That the lion goes away.
00:24:20What they suggest is that instead of hunting,
00:24:24we could scavenge if the lions killed something.
00:24:27Then a bunch of humans could come on, throw stones.
00:24:29- Scare away the lion, yes.
00:24:32- Which would must have driven them crazy, but--
00:24:35- Yeah, it's super annoying.
00:24:36Not only to have chased this thing down,
00:24:38finally got some food and then a bunch of stones hit you.
00:24:41Bill taught me about that.
00:24:43I think it was him that said to me as well
00:24:44that thing about kids.
00:24:46If you just put boys in a field, a playground,
00:24:51and there's stones, there's something so primal
00:24:55about just picking it up and throwing it.
00:24:57It's almost like when you see dogs kicking their back feet
00:25:00to after they've been to the toilet
00:25:03and they're sort of pushing up the dirt in order to,
00:25:05like who taught you to do that?
00:25:08No one taught me that I should pick up a stone.
00:25:11I just see it on the ground, even now.
00:25:13- Even now.
00:25:15- Yes, yes, okay.
00:25:16Yeah, it's clearly something we don't use anymore
00:25:18as a strategy to get food.
00:25:20- I don't go into Chipotle and make a habit
00:25:23of flicking pebbles at people until they get me their food.
00:25:25No, that's correct.
00:25:26- Yes, but it could well have some impulse there
00:25:32and probably more in the boys than in the girls.
00:25:35It's taking on dangerous animals is usually the men's job.
00:25:40- Okay, what about risk taking?
00:25:41Because that has to be a big,
00:25:44in fact, forget even the risk taking thing.
00:25:46The differences in the motivations,
00:25:47when we're talking about something that controls
00:25:50for physical ability is maybe heavily influenced
00:25:55by cognitive variance.
00:25:56So something like chess playing,
00:25:57there was a study that came out again recently
00:25:59looking at the total ELO scores over time
00:26:02of the best chess players in the world.
00:26:04And I think there was only one female player
00:26:06that ranked in the top something, maybe the top hundred,
00:26:11maybe the top 50, there's only one.
00:26:13And you think, well, this might be due
00:26:15to some cognitive differences in ability
00:26:18that if you've just got all of these outliers,
00:26:21the 50 men in that 50 are just the tail of the tail
00:26:24of the tail at the very top of processing power.
00:26:28But that's not just what chess ability measures.
00:26:31It also measures your stubbornness
00:26:35and your motivation to compete with other people
00:26:38for hours and hours and hours obsessively.
00:26:41So that is, I like the idea of the chess thing
00:26:44because it controls for pretty much every variable
00:26:46except for one type of ability
00:26:49or like a smaller bucket of abilities
00:26:51that are typically kind of denied, I guess,
00:26:53when you look at denial of sex difference stuff
00:26:55and motivations.
00:26:57That motivations to me seem to play a much bigger role
00:27:01in that than you would be able to excuse
00:27:03if it was something that was biomechanical.
00:27:05- Well, two points to that.
00:27:07One is, I remember being surprised
00:27:09that men and women have separate chess tournaments.
00:27:12I mean, I can understand in basketball
00:27:14that the girls' team won't be able to play
00:27:17against the boys' team as the men are taller and so on,
00:27:21but why in chess?
00:27:23But it could be this kind of distribution
00:27:26in terms of ability.
00:27:31There also may be more competitive motivation.
00:27:35My friend John Tierney has this,
00:27:37he's a super good writer,
00:27:40he wrote for the New York Times for many years,
00:27:43and he likes Scrabble.
00:27:45He said, "Nationwide in the U.S.,
00:27:47"there are more women than men on the Scrabble clubs
00:27:51"playing Scrabble," and so on.
00:27:53And it goes with women are highly verbal and so on,
00:27:58and many say their verbal skills are superior to men's,
00:28:02but when they have tournaments,
00:28:05all the top winners are men.
00:28:07It's very rare.
00:28:09There may be one or two occasional women to get in there,
00:28:12but in the competition, the men do it,
00:28:16and so it could be an ability difference
00:28:19that really at the super high level
00:28:21to win a large Scrabble tournament,
00:28:23you have to be really good,
00:28:24but he said also the men are more motivated, more ambitious,
00:28:29so they'll spend the time doing the drills
00:28:31and memorizing the words and doing that.
00:28:34The women go to the Scrabble club
00:28:35and they want to play Scrabble and have fun.
00:28:38They don't care about memorizing lists of words
00:28:43so that they could possibly do better in the future,
00:28:48but putting in that training effort,
00:28:53and that would go to motivation.
00:28:55That's higher among the men.
00:28:59And motivation and ability, they probably go together,
00:29:04and especially with something as important
00:29:08as men and women being slightly differently crafted
00:29:12for slightly different tasks in the biological past.
00:29:16You want to be motivated to do the things you're good at.
00:29:20- What about risk-taking then?
00:29:22What's the differences in risk-taking?
00:29:24- Well, risk-taking, first of all,
00:29:27going back to twice as many of our ancestors
00:29:31were women than men, and women are much more likely
00:29:34to reproduce than men, which means odds are in your favor.
00:29:39If your biological goal is to produce a child,
00:29:45or several and produce grandchildren,
00:29:48for a woman, playing it safe was gonna get there.
00:29:52Most women reproduced, but most men didn't.
00:29:57So if you just go along with everybody else and play along,
00:30:01you'll end up left out.
00:30:04So we're descended from the ones who were ambitious
00:30:09and rose to the top, and some of that means taking chances.
00:30:12So in the book, sailing off into the unknown to explore,
00:30:19all kinds of bad things can happen to you.
00:30:22It's not surprising women didn't want to risk that.
00:30:26But you might come back rich.
00:30:31We're descended from the men who took the chances
00:30:33and did succeed.
00:30:34Lots of men took chances and drowned or were killed
00:30:38or got nowhere.
00:30:39But that's life as a man.
00:30:45In fact, it's true, I think, in many other species.
00:30:48So if the male is a riskier,
00:30:56a riskier one because you had to succeed
00:30:59in order to be attractive and have children.
00:31:07Now there are other aspects of this.
00:31:09Joyce Benenson and her colleagues at Harvard
00:31:11had this terrific paper a year or two ago
00:31:14about safety concerns, which are much higher in women
00:31:18than men.
00:31:20- Physical safety, cultural safety?
00:31:24- I think social too, I mean, the article dwells
00:31:26on physical and medical things.
00:31:28But I think it applies in the social realm too.
00:31:33Women don't like to take chances.
00:31:36I have a colleague who is arranging getting researchers
00:31:42together to do what she called adversarial collaborations.
00:31:46Where say, you and I are both working in some area
00:31:49and we have a theoretical disagreement.
00:31:52You think your theory's right,
00:31:53and I think my theory's right.
00:31:55So one thing we could do is get together
00:31:57and do an experiment together that will agree
00:32:00this will be the critical test, okay?
00:32:02And people don't usually do this
00:32:06'cause they don't reach out to their rivals
00:32:08who they often don't like or whatever.
00:32:10But this woman, Cori Clark, was at Penn
00:32:14and she had a big grant and encouraged people to do it.
00:32:16And she said, "Yeah, people often once," she said,
00:32:19"Why don't you do a collaboration with them?"
00:32:21I said, "Yeah, that's a great idea."
00:32:23But that was the men's reaction.
00:32:25She said, "I just couldn't get the women to do it."
00:32:28She had something like 30 or 40 of these things going.
00:32:31And I talked to her one point.
00:32:31She said, "I finally got a woman to agree
00:32:35to be part of one of these things,
00:32:36but it was only on the condition
00:32:38that she would be the neutral third party.
00:32:40So she could not be proven wrong."
00:32:42And so taking that chance, she elaborates,
00:32:50it's why women want to exclude someone they disagree with
00:32:53rather than confront them.
00:32:55And you bring your data, I'll bring mine
00:32:58and we'll duke it out.
00:33:00That's more a male strategy.
00:33:03So in a way, science has become much more about excluding
00:33:08and silencing, to the detriment
00:33:12of the scientific enterprise.
00:33:14- What's your concept of the imaginary feminist?
00:33:19- Oh, all right, that was in that book I did 15 years ago.
00:33:24There's this conventional wisdom that we all have.
00:33:31And when I start to say something about gender,
00:33:34you can immediately imagine,
00:33:36"Oh, but a feminist will object to this."
00:33:39So they have taught people very well
00:33:42to have a kind of automatic internalized representation
00:33:46of a feminist that is, "Well, you can't say this,
00:33:48you can't say that."
00:33:50It's mostly silencing and disallowing things.
00:33:55So the problem if you try to deal with feminists
00:34:00on a scholarly basis, well, there are multiple problems,
00:34:05but they disagree to some extent amongst themselves
00:34:09about various things so they can easily say,
00:34:10"Well, that's not what feminists believe,"
00:34:12or at least not what all feminists believe.
00:34:16But I wanted to address this internalized feminist watchdog
00:34:21that pretty much everybody is brought up right now.
00:34:27And you can't say this and you can't say that.
00:34:30That's misogynistic or that's unfair or sexist or whatever.
00:34:34Like you were saying earlier,
00:34:39to say that there are more stupid men than women,
00:34:41well, that's fine.
00:34:42But to say there are more brilliant men than women,
00:34:44oh, oh, oh, you can't say that.
00:34:46So that's what I was trying to get at
00:34:49with the imaginary feminist.
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00:35:56Do you think modern gender discourse
00:35:59is missing the concept of trade-offs?
00:36:02What is it that's going wrong
00:36:04when it comes to talking about men and women?
00:36:06- Absolutely, I was convinced of trade-offs
00:36:11really early in my career
00:36:13and I think social science in general,
00:36:15they wanna say this is good and that's bad.
00:36:17And not all of them, there are lots of people
00:36:19who believe in trade-offs.
00:36:21But sort of the dominant view is,
00:36:23well, this is a problem and we have to do this to fix it.
00:36:26And instead of saying, well, you fix one problem,
00:36:28you create another and it isn't so easy
00:36:32just to solve problems.
00:36:33So I have this view.
00:36:38Some social scientists see it as our work
00:36:41is a way of making society better.
00:36:43And so they have a clear idea of what's gonna be better.
00:36:46And don't want to acknowledge that if we make a change
00:36:51to bring about this better state,
00:36:52well, maybe it'll make some other things worse.
00:36:55So students are happier with grade inflation
00:36:59where everybody gets an A.
00:37:01But then they learn less.
00:37:02There's less incentive to study and less punishment.
00:37:08Schools get rated on how many of your students graduate
00:37:12and graduate on time and things like that.
00:37:15Well, but that puts pressure on the institution
00:37:18to put out, to make sure everybody passes
00:37:21whether they deserve it or not.
00:37:24And then there are more uneducated
00:37:26or poorly educated people out there.
00:37:29I was just reading something in this morning's paper.
00:37:32I think about the Chicago schools, which a number of them,
00:37:35they don't have a single pupil who is reading
00:37:38or doing math at grade level.
00:37:40So it's nicer for the teachers
00:37:47to give everybody a positive grade.
00:37:49The students like it too.
00:37:51But there's a clear trade-off
00:37:53that you don't have to work as hard.
00:37:56- It's such a strange kind of sort of toxic compassion.
00:38:02I had this idea in my head.
00:38:04You remember the study that was done
00:38:06where some feminist scholars had tried to reanalyze
00:38:11the big game hunting data of hunter-gatherer tribes.
00:38:16And they basically said,
00:38:19women not only did just as much big game hunting as men,
00:38:22but sometimes they did even more.
00:38:24And this was their reanalysis of existing data.
00:38:27It was about five years ago and it sort of broke through.
00:38:29I remember looking at it at the time and I thought,
00:38:31this doesn't seem to make sense to me.
00:38:34I don't really understand why, but I'm not a scholar.
00:38:37I can't read the data.
00:38:39Someone analyzed their reanalysis
00:38:42and there was so much fuckery with the data.
00:38:44It was one contribution to a single hunt
00:38:49was counted the same as an entire lifetime
00:38:52as hunting from the men.
00:38:53There was no difference made for the size,
00:38:55et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:38:56And what I realized was there's a kind of soft bigotry
00:39:00of male expectations around this stuff
00:39:03that whatever men do is implicitly preferred.
00:39:06That's seen as the desirable thing.
00:39:09That women did just as much big game hunting as men
00:39:14implies that big game hunting and the male default
00:39:18is somehow more desirable.
00:39:20In the same way as there are just as many female CEOs
00:39:25are on the rise and this is something
00:39:27that should be celebrated.
00:39:29Well, because that's a position
00:39:30that's been typically held by men.
00:39:32Now it's the prestigious ones.
00:39:34You wouldn't see this for there are just as many female
00:39:37addicts and homeless people as men.
00:39:38There are just as many women in jail
00:39:40for violent crimes as men.
00:39:41You wouldn't get that in the same way.
00:39:42But I realized for a society that's increasingly obsessed
00:39:47with talking about equality, which is not equality,
00:39:51it's trying to make men and women the same,
00:39:54not to make them equal.
00:39:55It really is, it slips so much low key misogyny in
00:40:02by just tacitly derogating whatever it is
00:40:06that women tend to do naturally.
00:40:08That allo parenting, gathering.
00:40:10Gathering is not as important as hunting.
00:40:13Raising children is not as important as war.
00:40:15Staying at, building the HR department is not as important
00:40:21as being the CEO.
00:40:23There is always this sort of implicit prioritization,
00:40:27this soft bigotry of male expectations.
00:40:29And I saw it happen with that hunter gatherer,
00:40:32big game hunting thing.
00:40:33And I just, once I've seen it, I can't unsee it really.
00:40:36- Okay, a couple of things.
00:40:41First, in terms of hunting and gathering,
00:40:46they're both important.
00:40:48And gathering sometimes yields more calories.
00:40:51It certainly does much more reliably.
00:40:54But from what I'm told,
00:40:56protein has this particular higher value.
00:40:59And so men gather too, for sure.
00:41:02Especially the modern ones,
00:41:03'cause I don't think there's as much big game to hunt anymore
00:41:08for the remaining hunter gatherers anyhow.
00:41:10But protein is a particular need.
00:41:15So if you wanna make women look good,
00:41:20you just count the calories,
00:41:22and then the difference is smaller.
00:41:24But protein, which you need to grow the brain
00:41:27and the muscles and everything else,
00:41:29that is a higher prestige food.
00:41:34It's a more valuable kind of food.
00:41:36And so there is a genuine superiority in getting food,
00:41:42or getting protein food,
00:41:47which would come from mainly from hunting.
00:41:51Now women do, I understand, sometimes hunt small game.
00:41:54You know, so there's some degree of overlap,
00:41:59as you would expect.
00:42:01But it's not that the men made up
00:42:05that hunting is better than gathering.
00:42:10Being the good hunter again
00:42:12is what made the man attractive to women,
00:42:15so that he could get his choice of mates
00:42:17and have a tassel of children,
00:42:19and we'd be descended from him.
00:42:21And the women knew this too.
00:42:25I'm sorry, Joyce said they all know who's the best hunter.
00:42:29They all want him.
00:42:31So there is some benefit to protein.
00:42:38And in terms of what makes a corporation succeed,
00:42:41the HR department just manages things internally,
00:42:48but it doesn't improve the bottom line.
00:42:52You gotta work on the manufacturing technology
00:42:56and the sales opportunities.
00:43:00And those are the things where the corporations make money
00:43:03so that they can afford a human relations thing,
00:43:07which will make sure there are no office romances
00:43:10and things like that,
00:43:12which incidentally is something of a recent issue
00:43:15I've been thinking about.
00:43:17I wonder if the young people aren't marrying
00:43:21and mating nearly as much as they used to.
00:43:24And I wonder if the prohibition on workplace romance
00:43:28throughout a lot of real babies with the bathwater.
00:43:32I mean, it was done to protect women
00:43:34from a few abusive guys
00:43:37who would take advantage of their position.
00:43:40And I sympathize with that,
00:43:43but I think I like most men, I guess like you too,
00:43:47we hate those guys who abuse their positions
00:43:49'cause they discredit the rest of us.
00:43:51- Absolutely.
00:43:52- And when, again, I was visiting at Harvard
00:43:55and a woman there said,
00:43:57you know, our friends are all this long,
00:43:59happily married couples,
00:44:00but none of those marriages would be allowed today.
00:44:02A lot of them started off with professors and students
00:44:06and things like that.
00:44:07And so they pushed more and more to prohibit that.
00:44:11But often the woman initiated that herself
00:44:16and women like to marry somebody like that.
00:44:19And again, there's a lot of long, happy marriages
00:44:23are being prevented.
00:44:24And the dating apps aren't doing an adequate job.
00:44:28- Yeah, I think another interesting element here is
00:44:32modern feminism has encouraged women
00:44:36to turn into the sort of man that they want to marry.
00:44:39Very much encouraging dominance, assertiveness, independence,
00:44:45derogating, nurturing, soft, sensitive skills,
00:44:48unless they're in a man, obviously.
00:44:50And the lack of polarity,
00:44:54you just can't sort of re-engineer this out.
00:44:57And it's interesting to see
00:44:58how many of the cultural commentators online
00:45:01that will endorse a view that they don't embody,
00:45:04how many of the people that are writing about this stuff,
00:45:08if you were to look at the inner dynamic
00:45:10of their relationship, it probably looks quite traditional,
00:45:13but from the outside saying you don't need to be,
00:45:18you don't need to have a family,
00:45:19you don't need to be a mother,
00:45:20you don't need to be in any way submissive or follow
00:45:24or be led by the partner, all the rest.
00:45:26And you look internally at what a lot of these commentators
00:45:30online do, especially as they grow up a little bit more.
00:45:32And you realize that those positions aren't held.
00:45:37There was a really interesting situation.
00:45:40I don't know if you saw it.
00:45:41It went viral about six months ago.
00:45:42There was a man and a woman,
00:45:45young pair traveling in Thailand,
00:45:48some sort of East Asian country.
00:45:50And it was CCTV footage.
00:45:53And the woman was attacked by a man with a knife.
00:45:56And he was trying to steal her bag off her,
00:45:59some of her possessions.
00:46:00And the man that she was with hid
00:46:03around the side of a pillar.
00:46:05So there was a sort of a bollard or something.
00:46:07And this guy hid over there.
00:46:08As the woman was fighting,
00:46:10trying to sort of hold onto a bag.
00:46:11And this guy's got a knife.
00:46:13I don't really remember how it finished.
00:46:15All of the comments were basically saying,
00:46:19"Girl, just leave him. He's trash.
00:46:22This guy, absolutely no respect at all."
00:46:24And I wish that he had protected her.
00:46:29I wish that it hadn't happened.
00:46:30I don't think that she should have had to go through it.
00:46:32But it is difficult to diminish the protector/provider
00:46:39elements that men typically take value from.
00:46:43And in the same breath, say,
00:46:46"Yeah, but if it happens,
00:46:48you should stand up for the woman.
00:46:49Because if you've been trained for your entire life,
00:46:52well, women don't need the doors holding open for them.
00:46:55Women don't need you to make sure
00:46:56that they get home safe at night.
00:46:58They can do everything that a man does.
00:47:00Sometimes even better, just as much big game hunting.
00:47:03What is the, where are the training wheels
00:47:07for men to learn to step up in those sorts of situations?
00:47:10Right, right, yes, yes, yes, very much.
00:47:13Yeah, my generation, we were told we've got to take care
00:47:20of the girls and the women and hold the doors for them
00:47:23and protect them.
00:47:24And if there's danger, you put yourself into it.
00:47:27There's a funny story by Warren Farrell,
00:47:30who I guess initially was one of the main male feminists.
00:47:33He was, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:33He just kind of woke up to that.
00:47:35But he talked about being at a conference on feminism
00:47:38and he was out for a walk with one of the top women feminists
00:47:41and they're walking down in a park or something.
00:47:45A man jumped out from behind a tree.
00:47:47It turned out it wasn't dangerous, but it suddenly was.
00:47:50And immediately the woman ducked behind him
00:47:53and he stepped forward.
00:47:54(laughing)
00:47:56And he said, "Oh, we had such a long,
00:48:00"awkward conversation after that."
00:48:02(laughing)
00:48:04How could?
00:48:05(laughing)
00:48:07Oh, my embodied misogyny just pouring out of me.
00:48:12The patriarchy came and pulled her back behind me.
00:48:15Okay, I'm not sure I believe in either misogyny or patriarchy.
00:48:19But those are common terms, which, yeah,
00:48:24maybe that's what she blamed or something like that.
00:48:28But I certainly don't know any men who hate women.
00:48:32No.
00:48:34No, men who hate specific women.
00:48:35(laughing)
00:48:37Ex-wives and whatnot and often for understandable reasons.
00:48:40But a man who hated women in general, I don't do it.
00:48:44And if there's any gender hatred,
00:48:45it's feminists hating men in general.
00:48:48And in terms of--
00:48:50- I think there's subcultures now.
00:48:52Unfortunately, there are subcultures of men who hate women.
00:48:55You look at some of the darker corners of the internet now,
00:48:58guys that are, they're upset.
00:49:01But entire sex that they think has rejected them
00:49:06or their friends or has made a society
00:49:09where they're no longer wanted.
00:49:11I do think that the more militant edges of feminism
00:49:15have been mirrored now on the men's side.
00:49:18- Yeah, that could be.
00:49:19I wouldn't be surprised.
00:49:20And you know, if a woman who'd been raped a couple times
00:49:23hated men in general, we wouldn't be that surprised.
00:49:26- Yeah.
00:49:27- I kind of see those involuntarily celibate
00:49:30incels somewhat in the same category.
00:49:33I'm less sympathetic, but I mean the experiment would be
00:49:38if a woman would take one of these incels
00:49:43and strike up a relationship with him
00:49:46and start having sex with him,
00:49:47he might come around very rapidly.
00:49:52And all these women are bad would just evaporate.
00:49:56- That's a spicy theory that we can fix in seldom
00:49:59by just getting women to have sex with men more.
00:50:01But I do agree that, I mean, it's even discouraged
00:50:05in the world of incels.
00:50:07I'm not sure how familiar you are with it,
00:50:09but one of my best friends is the number one researcher
00:50:11on the planet, William.
00:50:13And they have this term called ascending.
00:50:16And ascending is no longer becoming an incel
00:50:21by being attractive to a woman and getting her attention,
00:50:26getting her in a bed, being found to be attractive in this way
00:50:29and it's actively discouraged.
00:50:31And I think the reason it's actively discouraged is
00:50:33if somebody else that you saw as an equal is able to ascend,
00:50:38is no longer involuntarily celibate,
00:50:41that means that maybe you're not doomed.
00:50:45And if that's the case, your sort of fatalistic view
00:50:48of why things are happening this way
00:50:51might not actually be so fatalistic.
00:50:53It might be more self-imposed
00:50:55and maybe there's something you could do.
00:50:56And as soon as you have hope,
00:50:58you also have the opportunity for disappointment.
00:51:00And without the hope, there can't be disappointment.
00:51:03So removing the hope and saying, I'm a genetic dead end,
00:51:06there's nothing that I can do.
00:51:08Women are X, Y, and Z, and that's not gonna change.
00:51:12That it's misery inducing, but predictable,
00:51:17consistent, and reassuring in some ways.
00:51:19- Yeah, yeah.
00:51:22Yeah, well, I would like to know more about the,
00:51:26in cells it's an odd corner of the world
00:51:28and I don't know people and I don't know much about them.
00:51:32But we can't take them as typical of men.
00:51:35They are usually, they are not the powerful people.
00:51:40They are not running society.
00:51:43Powerful men usually have no shortage of interested women.
00:51:48It's the ones who lack resources and successes
00:51:52and status and so on.
00:51:55- If your theory is correct, what do you think happens
00:51:59when societies stop rewarding male sacrifice?
00:52:02- Well, that would be a weakness.
00:52:07I remember my professors remembering World War II
00:52:11when it was declared and all American men rushed
00:52:14to sign up and volunteer to go fight the war.
00:52:19And I don't think that would happen today.
00:52:23The men have been brought up to think they're bad
00:52:28and the women are just as good and society,
00:52:31we teach our kids that America and the UK and so on
00:52:35are bad places, we've done bad things.
00:52:39Don't stress the positive accomplishments.
00:52:43So, that would be a vulnerability
00:52:47as long as there's no war.
00:52:50Ironic to say this, not with a war going on.
00:52:53- Yeah, I mean, it's so true that the reason
00:52:55that we're able to sort of play around in this kiddie pool
00:52:58with roles and switching of sacrifice
00:53:03and who's supposed to do what is literally
00:53:05because there aren't any intense election pressures going on.
00:53:08If there was something more extreme happening
00:53:10and imposing itself on us from the outside,
00:53:13shit would get real really quick.
00:53:14I mean, look at the Ukraine war, right?
00:53:16The Ukraine war kicks off and men were being turned away
00:53:20at the border, including trans men were being turned away
00:53:23at the border because, "Hey, no, sorry, buddy.
00:53:25Women and children get to go, but you got to stay."
00:53:28All thought, I don't know how progressive thinking Ukraine
00:53:32was prior to the war kicking off.
00:53:34I'm unsure about the cultural landscape there.
00:53:38But yeah, it seems to me like we might be entering a period
00:53:41where male motivation collapses.
00:53:43And obviously you wrote this book in 2010
00:53:46and 16 years later, the male motivation collapse,
00:53:51which you could have seen.
00:53:53It just would have been a natural by-product
00:53:55of you rolling the clock forward
00:53:56from what you'd already seen has completely come to fruition.
00:54:01So I guess I can congratulate you
00:54:02on being Cassandra in that way.
00:54:07- If it's true that ego depletion is one
00:54:11of the most successful findings in social psychology,
00:54:13that willpower is a limited resource,
00:54:17which when used can be sapped
00:54:18and takes time to come back online.
00:54:21If it's true that it's one of the most successful findings
00:54:23in social psychology, how come it keeps on being attacked?
00:54:27This is replication crisis, it doesn't repeat.
00:54:30Why is that the case?
00:54:32What are people getting wrong?
00:54:34- I don't know, people do like to tear down other things
00:54:37then there's a lot of petty jealousy and so forth.
00:54:41But evidence in favor is overwhelming.
00:54:49There must be a thousand successful findings
00:54:54in the research literature,
00:54:56which hardly any point has that meant that much support.
00:55:01I heard somebody was really saying,
00:55:03well, it must just been all been by chance
00:55:06that maybe by accident the statistics turned out this way.
00:55:11Well, chance works equally both ways.
00:55:14Half the findings should be in the opposite direction.
00:55:17There are essentially none in the opposite direction.
00:55:19I mean, saying that it's a chance where there's that much.
00:55:24There was the one initially big multi-lab replication
00:55:30which was reported as a failure.
00:55:35And so that got a lot of publicity
00:55:37'cause people like negative publicity
00:55:38and they never correct it when the positive comes around.
00:55:41Even those data were reanalyzed a couple years later
00:55:45and somebody said, oh, no, actually they didn't get people
00:55:50depleted enough to really show any effects.
00:55:54But to the slight extent that they did deplete people,
00:55:57they did what the theory predicted.
00:56:00So that was confirmed.
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00:57:07How much is true of the fact that ego depletion works,
00:57:11either only works or works more if you believe in it?
00:57:15That it's this self-fulfilling thing.
00:57:17If you believe that you have a limited amount of willpower,
00:57:19then it sort of manifests.
00:57:21But if you don't believe that, it's a protective mechanism.
00:57:24- Well, there's a really interesting idea
00:57:25that some people at Stanford published some work on that
00:57:30and we were intrigued by that.
00:57:33And so we tried to copy their experiment
00:57:37and we did find that if you give people
00:57:40a really strong sales pitch,
00:57:42that your willpower is unlimited,
00:57:46then at least when they first get depleted,
00:57:51they don't show the effect.
00:57:53And we did show when you get seriously depleted,
00:57:56then you show an even worse effect.
00:57:58So that belief that you have unlimited willpower is helpful.
00:58:02Think of the analogy of physical energy.
00:58:07If you somehow could be convinced
00:58:09that you have unlimited physical energy today,
00:58:12and then you go out for running a race.
00:58:15But first when you start to get tired,
00:58:17it'll probably help you continue to do it.
00:58:21But at some point it may backfire.
00:58:24My thought in the big picture is,
00:58:28if it were true that believing in unlimited willpower
00:58:31would give you unlimited willpower,
00:58:33you'd think most societies in the world
00:58:35would have that belief because--
00:58:39- They would have created some sort of cultural meme
00:58:41around it because it would have conferred
00:58:43such an improvement for everyone.
00:58:45- So much benefit to society,
00:58:47to having people with better self control.
00:58:51And yet most societies don't.
00:58:53There was some argument that some people in India
00:58:56have the opposite belief.
00:58:58And I wish to see more there.
00:59:01But it's very rare, most people seem to know.
00:59:05And I think they just have the experience
00:59:07that trying to exert control over a long period of time,
00:59:12you just can't keep it up.
00:59:15- What, if anything, has been accurate
00:59:20in some of the critiques around the original research?
00:59:25Or what's been most accurate,
00:59:26or has given you most reason to do so?
00:59:28- Okay, well at first we thought,
00:59:30first we were thinking that willpower
00:59:32is kind of a metaphorical thing.
00:59:34But, well okay, the brain has a limited amount of fuel
00:59:39and it used it up, so it has to recover.
00:59:43But then people started showing, you get people depleted
00:59:48and then you offer them a big financial reward
00:59:51if they can still perform well.
00:59:53Well, they can, they're extra depleted afterwards.
00:59:56But it's not that the brain is out of fuel,
00:59:59it just goes into a conservation mode.
01:00:01It turns out physical muscles are the same way.
01:00:04There are lab studies where you come into the lab
01:00:07and do physical exertions, or you have to press,
01:00:09and after a while your muscles get tired.
01:00:12And then the researchers will say,
01:00:14well I'll tell you what, I'll give you $10
01:00:16if you can do it once, pressing as hard as you did
01:00:18when you first walk in.
01:00:20Well, they can.
01:00:21It's still that there is a point
01:00:24at which your muscles can't work anymore.
01:00:26There's probably a point like that
01:00:27at which your willpower is so badly depleted
01:00:30that you can't do it, but in the laboratory
01:00:32would never get people to that extreme a situation.
01:00:36So, one big switch early was to shift
01:00:44from being out of fuel to conserving remaining fuel.
01:00:49And it makes sense.
01:00:50We evolved under conditions of uncertain food supply.
01:00:54Then people started linking it to the glucose,
01:01:01the chemical in your body that carries the energy
01:01:06from your stomach to your brain and muscles and so on.
01:01:09And found, oh this was kind of a surprise to me
01:01:13when this worked, but if people would eat something
01:01:16after they were depleted, that would get them back
01:01:18to perform well again.
01:01:20So that was intriguing.
01:01:25- Wasn't there, there was a great study done
01:01:26around the length of time of somebody being sent to jail
01:01:31by jurors or judges and how long it had been
01:01:40since they had their breakfast.
01:01:41Basically, if you end up in court, you probably want to go in
01:01:44at about 1.45 p.m. just after the lunch break
01:01:49or at 9 a.m. just after they've come in for breakfast.
01:01:51- Yes, yes, yes.
01:01:53Yeah, and some people argue about that.
01:01:54It's hard to get a perfect study done with real life data.
01:01:59But the curve was quite striking.
01:02:04And just about every experiment we've used
01:02:06where we give people some glucose in the middle,
01:02:10it does restore their performance.
01:02:13And then they often don't know.
01:02:15We started doing it with giving people lemonade.
01:02:18I was at Florida State and it was hot.
01:02:20And so people were glad to have a glass of lemonade.
01:02:22And you can mix it with Splenda or sugar.
01:02:25- Oh, so good. - And it tastes the same.
01:02:27And it can be double-blind, so the experimenter just pulls
01:02:30one out of the refrigerator and says this is for you.
01:02:33The experimenter doesn't know.
01:02:34If it's got glucose in it, it isn't sugar or just a sweetener.
01:02:38It tastes the same.
01:02:40People can't tell the difference.
01:02:41They're glad either way.
01:02:42But the Splenda had no effect on the data,
01:02:44whereas the sugar wiped out the--
01:02:46- That's so good.
01:02:48That's so good.
01:02:50- The glucose is the energy that's also used
01:02:52for your immune system.
01:02:53But it uses very uneven amounts.
01:03:00So when you're fighting off a cold,
01:03:02that's often why you wanna go to bed and just sleep it off
01:03:06and let your immune system have all the energy in there.
01:03:10Well, in our evolutionary history,
01:03:12we didn't have antibiotics or anything like that.
01:03:15If you got a cut on your foot and got infected,
01:03:19your body needed to fight that off.
01:03:21If you didn't get a cut,
01:03:23then you don't need extra immune system activity,
01:03:26but you'd need extra fuel for it to fight an infection
01:03:29or to survive a fever or anything like that.
01:03:31So it made sense to err on the side of conserving
01:03:35as much as possible.
01:03:37There is an interesting alternative theory here,
01:03:39which most people don't talk about,
01:03:45but I read it and I thought it's really quite good.
01:03:48Nothing quite fits everything,
01:03:51but this is the best alternative theory,
01:03:54which is that the sections in the brain
01:03:59that do self-control are really important,
01:04:01'cause self-control is really valuable
01:04:05for success in life in many different ways.
01:04:08And if you have high glucose around some nerve cells
01:04:11for a long period of time, it starts to kill them.
01:04:14It's best known diabetics.
01:04:19In the past, they would lose all feeling in their feet.
01:04:23Their blood sugar would run high,
01:04:25and so you would start to kill the nerve cells
01:04:29and you wouldn't feel it,
01:04:32so you'd hurt your foot and infections would happen
01:04:35and you wouldn't notice them.
01:04:37So it could be that after you exert self-control,
01:04:44the depletion effect is the brain
01:04:47letting itself cool off, as it were.
01:04:50You say, okay, we've been exerting self-control
01:04:53using willpower, that means those nerve cells
01:04:57in the front of the brain have been exposed
01:04:59to a high level of glucose.
01:05:01Well, we don't wanna burn 'em out,
01:05:03so let's not use self-control for a while,
01:05:07let them cool off and then I can use them again.
01:05:10That really fits a lot of the evidence.
01:05:15It's the most plausible alternative theory
01:05:21that would still mean most of the glucose,
01:05:25most of the depletion phenomena are real.
01:05:29It would just have a different interior
01:05:31mechanism that the brain automatically conserves its energy,
01:05:35but rather it needs to use different parts of the brain
01:05:40so that the nerve cells don't get wear and tear
01:05:44from an extended period of high glucose.
01:05:47- Beyond having more glucose
01:05:50across all of the work that you've done,
01:05:51what are the best, most evidence-based ways
01:05:54for people to improve their willpower?
01:05:58- Okay, well, improving self-control, which is the real goal,
01:06:02you can do that without improving willpower.
01:06:05- Can you distinguish for me
01:06:06the difference between a self-control--
01:06:08- Okay, so willpower would be the energy that you exert,
01:06:12but self-control also depends
01:06:14on keeping track of the behavior.
01:06:19So the easiest way to improve your self-control
01:06:24is to keep a record of what you're doing.
01:06:26Even my grandmother told me a long time ago,
01:06:29well, when you're a poor student and you don't have money,
01:06:32you just write down everything you spend
01:06:34and then you know how much you're spending
01:06:36and what you're spending it on.
01:06:39Or if you're trying to lose weight and keep it off,
01:06:42well, you gotta weigh yourself more carefully.
01:06:45Or if you're trying to take up an exercise program,
01:06:48tell your friends you're gonna do it
01:06:50and tell them you're gonna tell them each day
01:06:51did I exercise today.
01:06:54So improving the monitoring will improve self-control
01:06:59without needing any more willpower
01:07:01'cause it gives you more feedback.
01:07:04And I was gonna try to jog three times a week
01:07:07and I haven't jogged all week, so I better do it.
01:07:11It's easier to fool yourself if you don't keep track.
01:07:14And certainly if you don't know,
01:07:16it's very hard to regulate something that you don't know.
01:07:20In terms of improving the willpower,
01:07:22it seems to work like a muscle.
01:07:26And a lot of people have produced findings like this
01:07:29that if you exercise self-control on a regular basis,
01:07:32then you get better at it.
01:07:34I didn't know if that would work.
01:07:38We had an early study where it did work
01:07:43and then done a fair number of others
01:07:45and other people have too.
01:07:46There are a couple of meta-analyses combining
01:07:48results of a great many and saying,
01:07:50a great many studies and saying, yes, it does
01:07:54practice self-control.
01:07:55To design the study properly,
01:07:56you have to exercise self-control on one sphere
01:08:00and then measure self-control in something else
01:08:03to show that it's a general improvement.
01:08:05But it does seem to work.
01:08:08Or some of the biggest effects I've seen
01:08:10were this Australian group, they did several studies.
01:08:14One was they took students who had money trouble
01:08:17and they trained them to manage their money better.
01:08:19And they met with them once a month for several months
01:08:23or something and taught them how to manage their money.
01:08:26And so they did get better at that.
01:08:28But the measure, one key was they came to the laboratory
01:08:34and had to do self-control tasks
01:08:35that had nothing to do with money.
01:08:37There was just like maintaining focus on this
01:08:40while you're being distracted by that.
01:08:42They were better at that.
01:08:43They also reported on the questionnaire
01:08:46that they started studying better just 'cause they're working
01:08:50on managing their money better.
01:08:52But they also study, their study habits improved.
01:08:56After they finished dinner, they would clean up
01:08:59rather than just stack the dishes in the sink.
01:09:02They even said they ate healthier,
01:09:04which again is a sign of self-control.
01:09:08But as they point out, healthy food is more expensive
01:09:12than junk food.
01:09:14So it kind of went against what they were training
01:09:16self-control for, which is to manage their money better.
01:09:20But that also improved their diet.
01:09:24So they saw a whole variety of positive changes in there
01:09:29that came from, fitting the idea that self-control
01:09:33is sort of one central resource
01:09:36that's used for many different things.
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01:10:53I've been completely obsessed with this series
01:10:56that you've been doing on Substack about sexual novelty.
01:10:58What did you learn there?
01:10:59- I was intrigued with the idea
01:11:02that it's partly with thinking about pornography,
01:11:07it's so widely available.
01:11:10I've seen over the course of my life
01:11:12that that become more and more available
01:11:16and for better and for worse.
01:11:19But the novelty of it,
01:11:26it might've been Naomi Wolf or one of those who remarked
01:11:30that her generation,
01:11:32which I think was about the same as mine,
01:11:34was the last time a woman could have this huge effect
01:11:37on a man just by taking off her clothes
01:11:39and letting him see her naked body.
01:11:41But there was such a thrill just to see it.
01:11:44You know, when I was a kid,
01:11:45we didn't see pictures of naked women.
01:11:47One of my buddies would find a playboy
01:11:53that somebody had thrown away or something,
01:11:55but they didn't even show the full nudity.
01:11:58So you really didn't quite know
01:12:01what a woman entirely looked like.
01:12:03And even if you could find an occasional picture
01:12:07or something, it's not like endless amounts of pornography
01:12:11and lots of women and ads where they're showing everything.
01:12:16So some of the mystery is gone.
01:12:18And it made me think maybe there's some loss there
01:12:23that novelty is arousing,
01:12:27but it's a limited amount of novelty.
01:12:32You can only do something the first time once.
01:12:36It is only one first time.
01:12:38So in a way, it's a bit sad for young men
01:12:43to have all this available to them.
01:12:47And if it had been available when I was young,
01:12:49I doubt I would have resisted.
01:12:50I probably would have been curious enough
01:12:53to look at it all and so on.
01:12:57But in a way, I think I'm lucky that it wasn't available.
01:13:03But that way there was still novelty
01:13:07as I got into my 30s and 40s, which I hadn't explored yet.
01:13:11But if you've seen everything by the time you're 25
01:13:15or even by the time you're 20,
01:13:17there isn't as much novelty available.
01:13:22On the different sex partners,
01:13:26and that seems to be what people are shifting,
01:13:29that's kind of what I came to after writing those columns,
01:13:32that people are blazing through all the novelty
01:13:35and pornography.
01:13:37They're not doing as much of capitalizing on novelty
01:13:40within the relationship as of the second base plan.
01:13:45You just sort of gradually go from one step to the other.
01:13:49One of my young friends said,
01:13:51"Oh yeah, today I just did it again."
01:13:55From first contact on the dating app
01:13:57to having lots of sex under a week.
01:14:01It's just a few days.
01:14:02Whereas back in the day,
01:14:07the earlier day you had to practically be engaged
01:14:10before you could go all the way.
01:14:12Certainly when I grew up in the 70s,
01:14:17you had to have a series of interactions
01:14:21and you got the relationship.
01:14:23And then so the step-by-step, the novelty,
01:14:25you could appreciate.
01:14:28So the first time you undo a brassiere or whatever,
01:14:32oh, that's really exciting.
01:14:34But if you've had sex and done it all right away,
01:14:39that doesn't, I think, strengthen the relationship
01:14:44in the way that shared novel experiences,
01:14:48a series of them will do.
01:14:50I can't prove it on that, but that's a speculation.
01:14:54But going for novelty in terms of lots of different partners
01:14:57rather than novelty within one relationship
01:15:00of gradually exploring many different activities,
01:15:04that seems much less well-designed
01:15:06to produce healthy families, which is what society needs.
01:15:09And I guess I have to think
01:15:13for those fortunate young men who have sex
01:15:17with lots and lots of different women,
01:15:19is this really good preparation for marriage?
01:15:28- I think it would, you could cycle through women rapidly
01:15:31and get tired of them.
01:15:34- Do you think that- - And then you both settle down
01:15:35with one woman for 40 years.
01:15:37- Yeah, do you think that that predisposes men
01:15:41who've had a high body count before getting into marriage
01:15:44that even trying to tie,
01:15:46let's say that they've taken the red pill
01:15:48of your Substax Post series and they're gonna slow,
01:15:53you can only get to second base once.
01:15:55And if you hit a home run first time,
01:15:57then you've rounded all of them, basically.
01:15:59And we're gonna slowly titrate the sexual novelty over time.
01:16:04We're gonna get more experimental,
01:16:06but it's gonna be over a much more protracted timeline.
01:16:09Do you think that you can be sort of predisposed
01:16:11to not finding that as exciting?
01:16:13Is there a, basically,
01:16:14is there a lifetime Coolidge effect as well?
01:16:17- Yeah, somebody commented that on one of my Substax
01:16:19that after you've had sex with a dozen different women,
01:16:23then to go slow and get to second base with the next one
01:16:26is probably not that exciting.
01:16:29That is plausible, I'm not sure it's true.
01:16:31It does seem likely.
01:16:34- What was that story about the couple
01:16:40where the woman had never used her hand?
01:16:44- All right, yes, I remember reading that.
01:16:46I think it was in the
01:16:48"Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex,
01:16:50"But We're Afraid to Ask" book,
01:16:51which is one of the first best sellers
01:16:53of the public about sex, and she'd written to the physician
01:16:58and said they'd had a good sex life with her husband,
01:17:03and then gradually he couldn't perform as well.
01:17:08It got weaker and weaker and it stopped altogether,
01:17:10and it was kind of sad.
01:17:11She felt bad for him, and then she thought morals,
01:17:16women didn't do sexual things.
01:17:18But she said, "Well, I love my husband,
01:17:20"and we've been married a long time.
01:17:22"I'm not gonna worry about morality."
01:17:24And she went and bought a book about sex,
01:17:27which back in those days,
01:17:28there weren't that many things available.
01:17:31And it said if you put your hand on the man's genitals,
01:17:36it is exciting to them.
01:17:38So she said, "So I tried that,
01:17:39"and oh, he got harder than he had for years."
01:17:43And so it was a very nice, kind of sweet story.
01:17:48So that was the opposite extreme of novelty.
01:17:51They'd hardly done anything.
01:17:53And we forget, if we go back a century,
01:17:58the amount of female flesh a man would see in his lifetime
01:18:02is less probably than you can see in an hour of--
01:18:07- I mean, I was fascinated by that.
01:18:10What a weirdly, I guess it would be impossible
01:18:15to do that study now because sexual culture's so permissive
01:18:18and so sort of widely promoted
01:18:20that no one would have gone their entire life
01:18:23without what is sort of termed as second base.
01:18:27Actually, I lied, I lied.
01:18:28Apparently you can get to fourth base
01:18:30without going around second base.
01:18:32That is, you just go from home base to first,
01:18:37and then you go straight back again, apparently.
01:18:38And there's other bits that you can miss off.
01:18:40But I loved that story that you told
01:18:43about a series of experiments that were done
01:18:48showing pornography, normal pornography, BDSM pornography,
01:18:53and then educational sexual videos.
01:18:55And the increase in sexual frequency
01:18:58happened when everybody saw the porn for the first time.
01:19:02Because again, this was in the '60s or the '70s, I think,
01:19:05where porn was basically not available.
01:19:08But if you went from the extreme stuff
01:19:11to the more vanilla stuff,
01:19:13you didn't see the concordant increase in sexual desire.
01:19:18But if you escalated it,
01:19:20and this kind of goes to prove your theory
01:19:25that ever-increasing but steady escalation
01:19:30of sexual novelty over time, doing new things,
01:19:34exposure to that, not only within partners,
01:19:37but presumably across your lifetime, it seems to make sense.
01:19:39This isn't just a dyadic situation.
01:19:42It's gonna be stuff that you've done.
01:19:43If you have an explosive 20s,
01:19:47where you're just on the career run of your life,
01:19:50and then you settle down
01:19:52and you begin to start to titrate again,
01:19:54I have to assume that you need to almost treat yourself
01:19:57like you're someone whose sexual novelty
01:20:00needs to be shepherded with at least a little bit of care,
01:20:04because you want to still be excited to do things over time.
01:20:07And unfortunately, as much as you can say,
01:20:09you should love me so much.
01:20:11It should just be the excitement, the raw attraction,
01:20:14and the romance, and the rest of it.
01:20:15You need to respect the psychology.
01:20:17You need to respect Coolidge effect.
01:20:19You need to respect the way that we look at variety
01:20:23as being a stimulus.
01:20:25And yeah, I think it's just such a-
01:20:28- And ration it.
01:20:29Yeah. - And what, what?
01:20:30And ration it over time.
01:20:31Yeah, exactly. - Yeah.
01:20:32- So I mean, you've done, I love the disclaimer,
01:20:35and I'm gonna start to use it
01:20:37when I'm talking about spicy stuff too.
01:20:38You say at the top of pretty much all of the posts,
01:20:42this is a treatment on men.
01:20:44A separate treatment will be needed for women,
01:20:46but we can save that for another time.
01:20:48It's such a nice way to not have to caveat through.
01:20:50And we must remember that this would be important for-
01:20:54- Yeah.
01:20:54- Have you got any inclination?
01:20:55'Cause we're talking about men, the Coolidge effect,
01:20:58what's the refractory period from partner to partner.
01:21:00And for men, if they go from one partner
01:21:03to a different partner,
01:21:04they're able to perform more quickly
01:21:08as opposed to if it's the same one
01:21:09and they've got to go again.
01:21:12Have you got any idea what sexual novelty
01:21:16does to female sex drive?
01:21:18- Oh, it's much harder to get convincing data,
01:21:25anything on that.
01:21:26And so I can write what we do know about female sexuality
01:21:31and so on, but the role of novelty, I mean, it's not nothing,
01:21:39but it doesn't seem to be as powerful a driving force.
01:21:44I recall some years ago, someone reported a survey,
01:21:50I think it was first year college students at Southern Cal
01:21:54or one of the California universities.
01:21:56And they asked how many people would you like
01:21:58to have sex with for the rest of your life,
01:22:00assuming no constraints of marriage or laws or disease
01:22:04or anything like that if it were up to you.
01:22:07And the women's response average was two and a half.
01:22:11So they wanted to have a fling or two and then settle down.
01:22:14The average for the men was 64.
01:22:16(laughing)
01:22:18- And that's the average.
01:22:24So you've got some impressive outliers there
01:22:27to bring that back down.
01:22:28- Yeah, there definitely were.
01:22:29'Cause they said actually a lot of people just said one.
01:22:32Presumably these were people who were still virgins
01:22:34and they were just hoping to have the first one.
01:22:36- Oh wow, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:22:39- So both men and women, there were a lot saying,
01:22:41I would like to have one.
01:22:43But a lot of the men wanted to have a really high number.
01:22:47And not very many women were saying,
01:22:52I wanna go have sex with 100 men.
01:22:54So I'm not doing it now.
01:22:59There was that woman in the UK
01:23:00who did it all in one day, right?
01:23:02- A thousand, yeah, Bonnie Blue.
01:23:03I had a debate with her on this show.
01:23:05I moderated a debate with her on the show.
01:23:08- It wasn't a thousand in one day, right?
01:23:11- No, it was.
01:23:12You're talking about Lily Phillips who did a hundred
01:23:14and then Bonnie Blue had sex with a thousand men in one day.
01:23:18Which even if you just run the numbers is insane,
01:23:20but the whole thing was recorded.
01:23:21It's a real, I mean, more than anything,
01:23:25it's an endurance feat.
01:23:27More than it is one of sexual novelty.
01:23:29But I mean, what you're looking at there
01:23:31is basically someone who's kind of the Michael Jordan
01:23:34or the LeBron James or the Tiger Woods of socio-sexuality.
01:23:37It's just somebody that's so far,
01:23:39she is the tail of the tail.
01:23:41She's the Elon Musk of having sex.
01:23:44And I had a conversation with her.
01:23:46I sat down, I sat across from her.
01:23:48She was perfectly cordial.
01:23:49She had her defenses up at the start,
01:23:51but when she realized it wasn't gonna be
01:23:52a cantankerous take down conversation,
01:23:55it was really nice.
01:23:57And I was looking, I mean,
01:23:59I think I'm a pretty good judge of character.
01:24:01And I was looking for, is there some deception going on here?
01:24:06Is there some secret trauma that's leaking out?
01:24:08Is there whatever?
01:24:09And by the end of it, my summary is just,
01:24:13she is the most extreme
01:24:17socio-sexual being that I've ever seen.
01:24:20She just is able to completely detach emotions
01:24:23from having sex.
01:24:25It's not alchemizing some childhood wound
01:24:28in a way that I think a lot of BDSM and kink actually is.
01:24:31There seems to be a good amount of data coming out
01:24:33that a good bit of BDSM and kink is preferences for that
01:24:38are predisposed by some situations
01:24:42people have been through in childhood.
01:24:43That was Catherine Page Harden from UT.
01:24:45She was teaching me about that a couple of weeks ago
01:24:47and a couple of other conversations I've had.
01:24:49It's definitely unique, but I mean, yeah,
01:24:56maybe there'll be studies done on her at some point
01:24:58in the future, who knows?
01:25:00- The one who did a hundred said she wouldn't recommend it.
01:25:02- Yeah, the one who did a thousand
01:25:03said that she'd do it again.
01:25:05So again, the people at the extremes,
01:25:09the people who were at the tail of the tail, they'll-
01:25:11- Okay, well, that's what she wants, good for her.
01:25:12And it must've been fun for the thousand men too.
01:25:16I wonder, does she want to get married at some date?
01:25:19- That would be actually,
01:25:21that could be a fix for your incel problem.
01:25:25That could be, we could just put a thousand of the men
01:25:28who was struggling with the in seldom thing in there.
01:25:30And then that's a thousand fewer men
01:25:33who are maybe thinking that sex is inaccessible, who knows?
01:25:36- Yes, my wife thinks they're just caught up
01:25:41by the publicity that's great sex
01:25:43is going on all over the place.
01:25:44And she says they probably just want
01:25:49the really attractive women,
01:25:50which is unrealistic for them.
01:25:52She wonders, have these incels made a serious effort
01:25:57to date say the fat girls or the others
01:26:01who aren't nearly as much in demand?
01:26:03Traditionally, historically,
01:26:06that's what people sometimes did.
01:26:08You know, they found someone at about the same level,
01:26:10but that was before there was the assumption
01:26:15that lots of people are having
01:26:17lots of great sex all the time.
01:26:19Which I'm told by the researchers who are studying this
01:26:22is that it's not nearly as wild as that.
01:26:26And that the Hollywood version
01:26:30of what a young person's sex life is not realistic.
01:26:35And it may be realistic even in Hollywood.
01:26:37But you know, those are beautiful people
01:26:41with lots of money and status and so on.
01:26:43So I don't know, I don't have to,
01:26:49you said, you know, an expert on this.
01:26:51You know, well, have you really tried
01:26:52to date the less attractive girls
01:26:54who were wishing for more attention and action?
01:26:57If you insist you have to have the gorgeous one,
01:27:02well, you may be disappointed
01:27:05unless you're a big, rich, rich, handsome man.
01:27:09There was a really interesting article
01:27:14that was posted by my friend Rob Henderson
01:27:15a couple of days ago.
01:27:16And he was talking about people assume
01:27:19that it's this small number of men
01:27:21that are capturing sex from a large number of women.
01:27:23But it's not, it's a socio-sexual few at the top.
01:27:27And yeah, there is a little bit of a skew within there.
01:27:30But most people aren't having that much sex.
01:27:35Many people aren't having any sex at all.
01:27:38And there is a small number of people
01:27:40having loads of sex with each other.
01:27:43And that's just a really interesting wrinkle, I think,
01:27:47in the sort of 80/20 discourse
01:27:49that's been going on for a while.
01:27:50And I knew that this had been, this had got turned upside down
01:27:54three or four years ago by a friend, Alex Date Psych.
01:27:57And then Rob re-reported on it the other day
01:27:59and basically found out the same thing.
01:28:01You've just got this group of people
01:28:02who want to have sex with lots of people.
01:28:04And yeah, everybody else is, I don't know,
01:28:08looking at it, maybe thinking it was good.
01:28:10I guess one interesting thing is probably more men
01:28:13would want to be in that group of highly socio-sexual people,
01:28:17whereas fewer women desire to be in.
01:28:20Most women who want to be in it are in it, presumably,
01:28:23whereas most men who want to be in it can't be in it.
01:28:26- Right, yeah, there's a big difference there, again,
01:28:28with the men wanting much more of it,
01:28:31the average man wanting much more in terms of variety.
01:28:35Yeah, I was talking to another expert, Eli Finkel,
01:28:41and he said, yeah, the one-night stand thing,
01:28:43that's, it's not entirely a myth, but it's way overstated.
01:28:47It's quite rare for people to get together
01:28:50and have sex just one time.
01:28:52I don't know the basis for that, but he knew.
01:28:56He knows much more than I do about that sort of thing.
01:28:59- Roy Biomanster, ladies and gentlemen.
01:29:02Roy, you rule, I love your stuff.
01:29:04Everyone needs to go and check out your sub stack.
01:29:06Go and subscribe, The Existential Contrarian.
01:29:09- Right, yes.
01:29:10- Yeah, The Existential Contrarian.
01:29:12It is a crime how, I mean, you're new on sub stack,
01:29:15but everyone needs to go and do it.
01:29:16Check out the series on sexual novelty.
01:29:17I'm a massive fan.
01:29:18I read everything that you put out.
01:29:19I think you're great.
01:29:20And I look forward to whatever you're doing next
01:29:22because every opportunity to read what you do
01:29:25and to talk to you is a real treat.
01:29:27- Okay, well, thank you, Chris.
01:29:28It's been a great interview
01:29:29and a total pleasure for me as well.
01:29:31- Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:29:34Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:29:36by the internet just yet.
01:29:37Here's another one that you should watch.
01:29:40Go on.