00:00:00- How do you describe what you do?
00:00:01Someone hasn't met you before,
00:00:03they don't know much about you,
00:00:04you're at a cocktail party.
00:00:06How do you describe what you do?
00:00:07- I mean, my work focuses on,
00:00:09I mean, I'm a psychotherapist.
00:00:11That's kind of like my trade.
00:00:12I'm licensed as a psychotherapist.
00:00:14I have a doctorate in psychology.
00:00:16So my background is in psychology and mental health.
00:00:19I would say what I do specifically
00:00:21is I do extensive research on the etiology
00:00:25or cause of personality disorders.
00:00:28Like that's the type of diagnosis
00:00:31that I specialize in assessing, understanding.
00:00:34But one of the reasons I do it
00:00:35is actually not necessarily to treat personality disorders.
00:00:40I do it so that I help people understand
00:00:42in relationships where there's a personality disorder,
00:00:49there's often toxicity and conflict and strife and abuse.
00:00:56And so what I do is I help people restore their,
00:01:01what I would call their reality confidence
00:01:03following a toxic relationship.
00:01:05Because in these relationships what happens
00:01:07is the individual who is the victim
00:01:09of somebody who is intentionally manipulative,
00:01:12deceptive, controlling.
00:01:15What happens is the victim loses their sense
00:01:19of what's actually true and real
00:01:22and what's actually being manipulated.
00:01:26Okay, and so I help people following these types
00:01:29of high conflict or problematic abusive relationships
00:01:34kind of get their reality confidence back.
00:01:38And one of the ways I do that is by resolving
00:01:40what I call traumatic cognitive dissonance,
00:01:44which is what happens to the brain
00:01:45when you're forced to hold two contradictory realities
00:01:50at the same time because someone is trying to convince you
00:01:52that two things could be true at the same time
00:01:54and they can't be.
00:01:56And so when I'm consulting with people professionally,
00:02:01I'm helping them regain their understanding
00:02:04of what's actually real, what happened to them,
00:02:07and what they were convinced happened to them
00:02:09because it was convenient for somebody else
00:02:12if they believed that.
00:02:13- So it's almost like people that have spent
00:02:17a good bit of time intimately close to these other people,
00:02:23their reality gets warped around them to the point
00:02:27where it's difficult for them to reenter normal reality
00:02:30without the old version creeping back in.
00:02:35- Correct, yeah.
00:02:37Yeah, and one of the reasons for that
00:02:38is because the individual who is the manipulative person
00:02:41has done such an exceptional job
00:02:43of making a lot of the deception and the evidence invisible.
00:02:48So it's not like there's somebody overtly trying
00:02:52to manipulate you and you're aware of it.
00:02:55It's not like there's somebody saying,
00:02:56"Hey, I want you to buy this product for me.
00:02:59"Here's why I think it'll improve your life."
00:03:01And then they pressure you.
00:03:02It's actually more like,
00:03:03"No, I'm not actually up to anything."
00:03:06You're free to come and go as you please in this arrangement
00:03:10all while underneath the surface,
00:03:12covertly trying to gain an advantage over this person
00:03:15for selfish reasons, exploitative reasons.
00:03:18And so even if the relationship has ended,
00:03:21they still might perceive the relationship
00:03:23even years or decades later in a way that's not accurate
00:03:27because their reality was distorted.
00:03:29- What are the personality type?
00:03:34What are the sorts of people,
00:03:36the kinds of psychological profiles?
00:03:39What are we talking about here?
00:03:41How does that show up in behavior?
00:03:43- Yeah, so I mean, I would say the personality disorders,
00:03:47and I'm just the messenger here, okay?
00:03:50But the personality disorders that we most often associate
00:03:53with interpersonal conflict, abuse, harm,
00:03:57are what we call the cluster B personality disorders.
00:04:00And so the reason why we cluster them together
00:04:03is because they have a lot of overlapping features.
00:04:06So it's not really accurate to say that it's convenient,
00:04:11but it's not fully accurate to say
00:04:13that somebody just fits into one concrete category
00:04:17of disorder and we can just label them as such
00:04:20and then there's nothing else going on.
00:04:22Usually what's happening is there's quite a few traits
00:04:24or features of multiple personality disorders
00:04:28that are overlapping in one individual.
00:04:30And so it makes it even harder to really pinpoint
00:04:33what really is this person all about.
00:04:34But I would say that the pathological traits,
00:04:40the personality traits that we find common
00:04:43in the cluster B classification of disorders
00:04:47are the ones that you're gonna find
00:04:49causing the most interpersonal trouble
00:04:52and conflict in relationships.
00:04:54- What would they, what are they named?
00:04:57- So we have, one of the main ones
00:05:00that's sort of like an umbrella term
00:05:01is what we refer to as antagonism.
00:05:04Antagonism is a personality trait
00:05:06where people are oftentimes intentionally putting themselves
00:05:11at odds with another person,
00:05:12or they're putting two other people at odds with one another,
00:05:16literally to create drama, to create conflict,
00:05:19to escalate problems rather than solve them.
00:05:22So an example of antagonism is something
00:05:26that we refer to as like triangulation.
00:05:31So one person is intentionally gonna tell another person
00:05:34something about someone else to create a rift
00:05:38and then they're gonna deny that they did that.
00:05:41And so now the two people that didn't even speak
00:05:43could be having thoughts and perceptions about each other
00:05:45based on this other person
00:05:47that could be completely a fabrication,
00:05:49it could just be a lie.
00:05:50And now those two people are at odds with one another
00:05:52and they haven't even communicated necessarily.
00:05:54It's just this other person is deciding
00:05:57I'm gonna create a rift in here
00:05:59because it might benefit them for those two people
00:06:01to not get along.
00:06:02And so they're gonna strategically create a problem
00:06:06in that dynamic and then deny it every habit.
00:06:09- I didn't even know antagonism was a personality trait
00:06:14or a potential personality type.
00:06:16I don't know, I mean, I've thought about somebody
00:06:21that is antagonistic.
00:06:23You know that, but I didn't realize
00:06:25that it would be something more definable,
00:06:28something that had its own little bucket.
00:06:32- Yeah, and that's actually a big bucket
00:06:33because what's underneath antagonism
00:06:36is things like grandiosity, which we see in narcissism.
00:06:41I'm sure you're familiar with that term.
00:06:43It's a big popular term.
00:06:44Most people who get accused of being narcissistic,
00:06:48what they're actually being accused of is antagonism.
00:06:53They're being accused of,
00:06:56the problematic aspect of narcissism in a relationship
00:06:59is somebody's grandiosity.
00:07:01So their entitlement, their arrogance,
00:07:03their inability to see other people as an equal.
00:07:06Well, the only way you can be in a relationship
00:07:08as a narcissist and to maintain that position
00:07:12is if you antagonize people
00:07:14because you need to put people at odds with you.
00:07:17They need to be beneath you.
00:07:18They need to be aware that there's a hierarchy
00:07:20in the relationship that you are,
00:07:22whatever the case may be, smarter, better.
00:07:24They need to be above.
00:07:27There's no such thing as equality in a relationship
00:07:29where one person is truly narcissistic.
00:07:32So yeah, so antagonism is actually the big bowl
00:07:36that a lot of the other traits that we often hear about,
00:07:40they actually are falling under the category of antagonism.
00:07:44- What else is in the cluster?
00:07:46- We have hostility.
00:07:49So people that have kind of tend to hold
00:07:52like a contempt or a spite towards others
00:07:55to where they're not actually collaborating
00:07:57to make relationships better.
00:07:58They're resentful of the person.
00:08:00They might envy the person.
00:08:02They might be jealous of the person.
00:08:03So they're hostile towards them.
00:08:05And it's, again, this isn't always being admitted to.
00:08:09They could be smiling and winning favor
00:08:12and ingratiating and being kind to the person,
00:08:15all while sabotaging something covertly
00:08:18through their, because as a result of their hostility.
00:08:21So they might be deceptive.
00:08:22That's another feature of antagonism is deceit.
00:08:24Obviously manipulation.
00:08:27Failure to fulfill obligations.
00:08:31All of these things that we see
00:08:33and if they're consistent chronic behaviors,
00:08:37we're really dealing with an antagonistic person.
00:08:39- Well, I suppose all of us have done some of this,
00:08:42some of the time. - Oh yeah.
00:08:44So when we talk about personality disorders,
00:08:47what we're really talking about is this trait.
00:08:51So we'll just use antagonism
00:08:52'cause we're talking about antagonism.
00:08:54Is somebody antagonistic in like one or two specific contexts?
00:08:59So do they tend to become antagonistic
00:09:02when they're only talking to their mother
00:09:05and they're an adult, right?
00:09:06But no matter how much time goes by,
00:09:08if they go home to the house that they grew up in,
00:09:11they start being antagonistic.
00:09:12Are we talking about that?
00:09:13'Cause that's kind of a normal thing
00:09:14that we could see in humans.
00:09:16Or is this person all day, every day,
00:09:20plotting to put people at odds with one another
00:09:22because it benefits them in some way
00:09:24for people to navigate along.
00:09:26They seem to be the common denominator
00:09:29of helping everybody pick up the pieces back together.
00:09:31So there could be some motivating factor
00:09:35of why the person operates in an antagonistic fashion
00:09:38all day, every day.
00:09:39We would say that that's more related
00:09:41to abnormal or maladaptive personality.
00:09:46But if you're antagonistic once in a while
00:09:49with a particular person because you have a history,
00:09:53that's just being human, right?
00:09:54What we're looking for is how much is this pattern
00:09:57interfering with the life of the individual
00:10:00and the lives of other people?
00:10:03So there's a distinction there, yeah.
00:10:06- What's the root of this?
00:10:07What are the root of much of the cluster B disorders?
00:10:10- Good question.
00:10:11This is an excellent question.
00:10:12So one of the things that is gonna put my answer
00:10:16or set my answer apart is most of the people
00:10:20you've probably seen speak about this topic,
00:10:22personality disorders or narcissism,
00:10:24they're gonna give you a different answer
00:10:27than I would give you based on what causes it, okay?
00:10:31Most people have this idea or have adopted the idea
00:10:36that what causes it is actually childhood adversity
00:10:41or some sort of abuse or situation
00:10:45where the person learns to be this way.
00:10:48- Hurt people hurt people.
00:10:50- Precisely, yeah.
00:10:51I mean, that's the most common answer you'll get.
00:10:54I would fundamentally disagree with that
00:10:57because there's a lot of new research that has come out
00:11:02within the last 20 years even that suggests
00:11:05that a lot of the traits that we use
00:11:09to describe the central features of something
00:11:11like a narcissism are actually just as much,
00:11:15if not more related to the way somebody
00:11:17is just intrinsically built rather than the things
00:11:20that happen to them.
00:11:21So we're gonna go into like the,
00:11:24there's no such thing as a nature-nurture debate
00:11:26because it's always nature and nurture.
00:11:28So there's no such thing as talking about one
00:11:30without the other, but what I've noticed
00:11:33in clinical research and clinical practice
00:11:36and then just in my field in general
00:11:37is there is a lack of awareness among professionals
00:11:42of how much DNA and biology contribute
00:11:45to narcissistic traits and features across the lifespan
00:11:49in an individual regardless of what has happened to them
00:11:52in early life and childhood.
00:11:53So what I mean by that is there is evidence
00:11:56to demonstrate that people can be highly narcissistic
00:12:01or have a personality disorder that's more severe
00:12:04than we'll say mild or moderate
00:12:07and they could actually develop that disorder
00:12:09without any adversity or trauma or incidents
00:12:14of being hurt in their personal life.
00:12:18So we can no longer attribute this type of behavior
00:12:21solely to what happened to somebody
00:12:24in their early formative years.
00:12:27- I had Catherine Paige Harden on the show yesterday,
00:12:30familiar with her? - Mm-hmm.
00:12:32- Yeah, wrote the genetic lottery
00:12:33and her new book is "Original Sin"
00:12:35and it's all about how people's behavior
00:12:39is influenced by the genes, especially maladaptive,
00:12:43antisocial behavior, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse.
00:12:47And so yeah, you're in good company.
00:12:50This week apparently it's just all about
00:12:52bad personality traits and how much genes.
00:12:54- So an interesting question there is,
00:12:57if you're saying trauma doesn't necessarily cause people
00:13:02to become abusers, that you can have a child
00:13:04who goes through a horrendous childhood
00:13:06and doesn't grow up to become a narcissist
00:13:08or an antagonist or whatever.
00:13:10And you can also have a childhood which doesn't have abuse
00:13:16and the child does grow up to become an adult
00:13:17or even in childhood is presumably
00:13:19you get narcissistic children as well.
00:13:22How often do you see somebody that becomes,
00:13:25let's just say a narcissist or antagonist
00:13:28that doesn't have it in their family history
00:13:33where you have been able to separate out
00:13:35some of the heritability component of this?
00:13:37How many people can environment themselves
00:13:40into a cluster B disorder?
00:13:42- Yeah, that's such a great question.
00:13:44I would say historically in the mental health field,
00:13:49the answer to that question would be
00:13:51as many people as possible.
00:13:53Because they're operating from this theoretical lens
00:13:56that these are created, these are designed disorders.
00:14:00They're not built into anybody.
00:14:02They're strictly environmental.
00:14:04So that presents a problem if they're strictly environmental
00:14:07to my perspective.
00:14:10'Cause what it's saying is that
00:14:13under the right circumstances, you can make a narcissist.
00:14:18So to answer your question, maybe I'm,
00:14:23correct me if I'm not answering your question.
00:14:26I would say, I'm not gonna say something's not possible.
00:14:29So do I think it's possible that somebody
00:14:32based on experience alone could develop
00:14:35what we would typically refer to as like
00:14:38narcissistic personality disorder?
00:14:40Could they meet that criteria at some point in their life?
00:14:43Yeah, sure.
00:14:45I would caution to say though that
00:14:48what we're really seeing now though is
00:14:50they need enough of the startup material of narcissism
00:14:55in order for it to really manifest
00:14:57into like a pervasive disorder.
00:14:59Meaning there has to be some biological
00:15:01and genetic underpinnings that set up
00:15:04the trait profile for that type of--
00:15:06- They need the raw materials.
00:15:07- Yeah, I'd say so.
00:15:09I don't think you could just create it
00:15:10from the ground up in anybody.
00:15:13- So do you often see it in mom or dad or grandparents?
00:15:18Have you ever looked at this?
00:15:19Has anyone done a study?
00:15:21- Yeah, so they're actually,
00:15:23what gives us the most information
00:15:24on how genetic something is
00:15:26versus how environmental is twin studies.
00:15:29Twins, it's a natural experiment.
00:15:31You take two identical twins that have been raised apart
00:15:34so they don't even know the other exists
00:15:36and they know nothing about their environment.
00:15:38You study them later in life
00:15:41or at intervals of life.
00:15:44How similar are they
00:15:45if they come from completely different upbringings,
00:15:48completely different socioeconomic status,
00:15:50completely different countries?
00:15:52How similar are they in personality
00:15:54if they didn't know the other exists
00:15:55but they share 100% of their DNA?
00:15:58So those are the kind of cool natural experiments
00:16:00we can do on identical twins
00:16:02to see how much of the environmental influence is there
00:16:05versus how concordant are their traits
00:16:08even if they live the park or just share similar DNA.
00:16:12What we found in some pretty landmark meta-analyses
00:16:15and landmark studies is across the board
00:16:19when it comes to psychological traits,
00:16:2150 plus years of twin research
00:16:25covering millions and millions of different twins
00:16:29and covering, I don't know how many traits there are
00:16:34but maybe 20,000 psychological traits
00:16:37that are possible.
00:16:39We're finding that all psychological traits
00:16:41including personality traits
00:16:42show measurable average heritability of about 50%.
00:16:49So that's just with startup material alone,
00:16:55all psychological traits show about 50% average heritability.
00:17:02And what we've seen with personality disorders
00:17:05is that those percentages actually increased
00:17:08when we're talking about pathological personality traits.
00:17:12So it exceeds 50%, that's pretty significant.
00:17:16- Well, it's on average, pretty much everything is 50%
00:17:21but when you're talking about such an extreme outlier
00:17:25what sounds like very antisocial kind of maladaptive
00:17:28at least at the group level
00:17:29although it may be slightly adaptive at the individual level,
00:17:32you would have hoped that our genes
00:17:35might've been able to regress back to the mean
00:17:38a little bit more effectively to try and push this thing out.
00:17:42So have you thought about this through an evolutionary lens?
00:17:46Have you thought about how cluster B personality traits
00:17:50might be adaptive?
00:17:51What sort of benefits they would afford our ancestors
00:17:55and what sort of benefits the people who have them
00:17:57receive now?
00:17:58Because if they have stayed in the gene pool
00:18:02for a couple of hundred thousand years
00:18:04we have to assume that they're there for a reason.
00:18:05So what sort of benefits do these people see?
00:18:10- Yeah, so essentially why did these mechanisms evolve
00:18:14and why are they still around?
00:18:15- Bingo. - Okay.
00:18:17So the first question that we just talked about
00:18:21with heritability, we were asking essentially
00:18:23why do individuals differ?
00:18:24Why would some person have more narcissism than the other?
00:18:27Now you're asking maybe not an even better question
00:18:30but just as important as a question.
00:18:33Why the mechanisms in the first place?
00:18:35Like did they serve some useful purpose or even non-useful?
00:18:40Evolutionary psychologists, I don't wanna speak
00:18:44for all of them but some of them would say
00:18:47this is just due to random variation.
00:18:50Like these traits exist in the human DNA
00:18:53and they're gonna reemerge in future generations
00:18:57even if we try to wipe them out.
00:18:58Just like cooperation would reemerge
00:19:00if we tried to wipe out all the cooperative people.
00:19:04So part of it is random variation.
00:19:06I think it's just the nature of human DNA.
00:19:09We have these traits that exist.
00:19:11I think that these traits do serve certain purposes
00:19:13and certain contexts that are useful for immediate reward
00:19:18or immediate gratification or even solving
00:19:22a very particular problem that requires,
00:19:27could potentially require even impulse.
00:19:29We need like a spontaneous, impulsive, quick decision here.
00:19:32So we wanna look at the utility in these traits too.
00:19:38They're not all bad and I wouldn't even go so far
00:19:40as to say this is an issue about related to good or evil.
00:19:45I think these traits even in smaller doses
00:19:47could be extremely useful and so they exist for that purpose.
00:19:52When they get to the point where they're on the extreme end
00:19:55of the quantitative dimension, meaning somebody is existing
00:19:59in life and in relationships hostile to the point
00:20:02where it's problematic, that's when we would say,
00:20:05well, whatever purpose it served, this isn't the purpose.
00:20:10But we could even say that for positive traits
00:20:12like agreeableness, for example.
00:20:16You could be too agreeable.
00:20:17Then if you're pathologically agreeable,
00:20:19then it might be useful to be a bit more disagreeable
00:20:25in day-to-day life, right?
00:20:27So to answer your question, they exist 'cause they exist.
00:20:30They evolve for randomness and also some useful purposes
00:20:35in extreme levels that are just harmful.
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00:21:54What about the neurobiology of this stuff?
00:21:56What parts of the brain are involved in empathy
00:22:00and self-control and have we looked at the brains of the--
00:22:05Is it dopamine overload?
00:22:07Is it that the amygdala is firing too much?
00:22:10What's going on?
00:22:11- This is something that I think is extremely important
00:22:14to bring to this conversation because I think oftentimes,
00:22:18psychology stops at social
00:22:23and caregiving contributions, right?
00:22:27Like the original environment and things like that,
00:22:30but there are so many other systems involved
00:22:33in creating a personality or creating a trait,
00:22:36and you mentioned some of them.
00:22:37So we're talking about hormonal systems,
00:22:42the endocrine system, the nervous system,
00:22:46and then all of the brain networks that are communicating.
00:22:50I don't really like to say that this is like,
00:22:53there's such a thing as like a narcissistic brain
00:22:55where there's certain regions that look a certain way,
00:22:58and so that's a narcissistic brain.
00:22:59That's a little too naive, I would say,
00:23:06but are there regions or areas in the brain
00:23:08that are indicative of things like a lack of empathy?
00:23:12Sure, like absolutely.
00:23:13We see that in certain brains.
00:23:15We see that in brain imaging.
00:23:17We also see structural and functional differences
00:23:19in brains pre and post therapy
00:23:22in individuals with personality disorders.
00:23:24They've done studies on child brains,
00:23:27like they scan them prior to treatment
00:23:29and then scan them following treatment
00:23:31for tasks related to cognitive restructuring,
00:23:35mentalization-based treatment,
00:23:37and seeing that the function and structure of the brain
00:23:40does in fact change with certain interventions.
00:23:42- Okay, so this is not a complete lock-in.
00:23:45We can intervene.
00:23:47- In some cases, yeah, well in most,
00:23:49I would say in a lot of cases it's not,
00:23:51none of this is deterministic.
00:23:52It's probabilistic and it's more influential
00:23:56than it is like just set in stone.
00:23:58But there are cases, I just wanna be totally transparent,
00:24:04there are cases of individuals where there's not much hope
00:24:07for changing the operating system.
00:24:11- And what does that look like
00:24:12from a brain chemistry perspective?
00:24:14Like what differences in brain chemistry
00:24:16could make someone more prone to dominance or aggression
00:24:19or whatever? - Yeah, great question.
00:24:22So what we see, we see proactive
00:24:24or intentional forms of aggression
00:24:27in individuals who have like less activation
00:24:32when it comes to fear, learning, or consequences.
00:24:39So what I mean by that is some brains operate in a way
00:24:41where they don't learn from mistakes through fear.
00:24:46The fear doesn't register
00:24:48when they do something pretty horrific.
00:24:50So there's no motivation to stop doing the behavior
00:24:54when the fear doesn't kick in.
00:24:55There's also no arousal in the body
00:24:57or in systems that would normally say,
00:24:59okay, we need to be a bit hyper-vigilant here,
00:25:01we just did something, we don't like the way it feels.
00:25:03In some individuals, those things don't happen.
00:25:05So they don't learn from the mistakes,
00:25:08so therefore there's nothing in them registering
00:25:10to say we should stop doing this.
00:25:11What actually might be happening
00:25:12is it's making them feel better to do it, right?
00:25:15And it could be an antisocial behavior.
00:25:18So some people are wired in such a way
00:25:20where they're motivated to continue participating
00:25:23in what most people would consider a negative behavior,
00:25:27but their operating system is telling them to keep doing it
00:25:30because it produces a reward,
00:25:32or it's just there's nothing negative about it for them.
00:25:37- Paige yesterday said basically the exact same thing.
00:25:42And the funny thing about somebody
00:25:44who doesn't learn through punishment
00:25:46is that much of the time when you're a kid,
00:25:49if you are acting out, what happens is parents begin to,
00:25:53and teachers begin to ratchet a punishment
00:25:55more and more and more.
00:25:56What you don't realize is that
00:25:57that is simply the wrong pathway.
00:26:00It would be like somebody having
00:26:03a vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency
00:26:06and you just pushing more vitamin B into them,
00:26:09hoping that this simply does not get absorbed.
00:26:12And her angle was they will learn
00:26:16through reinforcement of praise,
00:26:18but not through reinforcement of punishment,
00:26:21which means that in your example here,
00:26:23it's almost like people are kind of blind
00:26:26to the slings and arrows of distaste from people.
00:26:31And they will just continue to work through
00:26:33until they find something that, oh, well, that worked.
00:26:36That seemed to get me closer
00:26:38to whatever my goal was for today.
00:26:40I'll keep doing that.
00:26:41No, you can't do that.
00:26:42You shouldn't do that.
00:26:43You've got time out.
00:26:44I'm taking your iPad.
00:26:45You're gonna sit on the naughty step.
00:26:47Made no difference.
00:26:49Try it again.
00:26:49Maybe in a different way.
00:26:51Ratchet it up a little bit more.
00:26:53The punishment comes back in.
00:26:54Again, no difference.
00:26:56Not learning from this, not learning from that.
00:26:57I'm just seeking missile for effectiveness
00:27:01without the sort of overlying social mores
00:27:06and the discomfort.
00:27:08For the people who've got (speaks in foreign language)
00:27:11staircase wit in French.
00:27:13That sense of, oh, fuck,
00:27:14I really wish that I'd said that thing
00:27:17as opposed to I just don't reflect on my behavior
00:27:21in that kind of a manner.
00:27:23That's exactly right.
00:27:24So what we see in the operating systems
00:27:26of the more severe to extreme personality disorders
00:27:31is we see a lack of capacity
00:27:36but also interest in collaboration.
00:27:39So imagine if you're starting point is
00:27:43I'm not interested in collaborating with people.
00:27:45That's how they,
00:27:50so there's a problem right there.
00:27:53There's a lack of collaborative capacity or interest.
00:27:55There's a lack of problem solving capacity or interest
00:27:58in these individuals.
00:27:59There's a lack of self-reflective capacity and interest
00:28:03and there's a lack of self-corrective capacity and interest.
00:28:08So we have to stop making the mistake
00:28:14of thinking that there is no variation between individuals,
00:28:19what motivates them.
00:28:20And interestingly enough too,
00:28:22with the severe personality disorders
00:28:25that create the interpersonal strife,
00:28:28more nurture and empathy for them
00:28:30actually makes them more exploitative.
00:28:33- Oh, hang on.
00:28:35So no, wait, wait a second.
00:28:37So you're telling me that a lot of these people
00:28:42are immune to punishment and encouraged by empathy.
00:28:47- Yes.
00:28:51Now we see this in,
00:28:58we actually see this in clinical practice
00:29:00which is interesting
00:29:01because when you work with individuals
00:29:04who have severe personality disorders,
00:29:07they actively put wrenches in the therapy process.
00:29:12They derail the process.
00:29:15- In what ways?
00:29:16- Well, they exploit your empathy
00:29:19and your unconditional positive regard for them
00:29:22and you believing their narrative.
00:29:23They exploit all that.
00:29:24So treating them and dealing with them
00:29:27in a clinical setting is one very telling of
00:29:30how they operate in their personal lives,
00:29:32where they're derailing and manipulating the narrative
00:29:35so that you guys don't reach a common ground.
00:29:37Seems like completely counterintuitive to most people,
00:29:40but that's what they're in fact doing.
00:29:42They're making it so that you can't reach
00:29:43a common ground with them.
00:29:44So there's that.
00:29:47- Sorry, just on that,
00:29:48they're trying to maintain control and distance.
00:29:52I'll give you what I think that you want from me,
00:29:57some sort of performative revelation
00:30:03or revealing a degree of titrated information
00:30:08that I've given you, but that's probably fake as well
00:30:12because I understand the dynamic.
00:30:14I understand what your reward function is.
00:30:17Oh, I've really got them to open up during this session
00:30:20and that allows the therapeutic relationship to keep going
00:30:25in a manner that it's supposed to,
00:30:29like within the rules of the game
00:30:31without actually having to play the game.
00:30:33- Correct.
00:30:34Well, yes.
00:30:35Well, seemingly, and most therapists,
00:30:38this goes over their head.
00:30:40So they're thinking that you're making great strides
00:30:44and you're progressing because you're feigning collaboration.
00:30:48- Have you ever,
00:30:49so I understand that you work
00:30:50with the victims of these people.
00:30:51Have you ever worked directly with the people themselves?
00:30:54- Yeah, I should clarify.
00:30:55I used to, I don't anymore, but I used to for a very-
00:30:58- Okay, you're a little bit like an ex undercover cop
00:31:01that's now turned into a proper detective or whatever.
00:31:05So tell me what it's like.
00:31:07Tell me what it's like to sit down
00:31:11opposite somebody who has 99th percentile,
00:31:16cluster B personality disorder.
00:31:18Just like, just describe that experience.
00:31:20- When we're talking about in a therapeutic context,
00:31:26something that's really important to mention
00:31:28is transference and counter-transference.
00:31:32So do you want me to go into that for your audience?
00:31:35- Yeah, give us a brief overview.
00:31:37I learned that, you know, interestingly,
00:31:38and I'm grinning because it's one of the few things
00:31:41that I've learned from reading chick novels.
00:31:43I read "The Silent Patient" by Alex Michelades,
00:31:46or Andrew Michelades, and in it,
00:31:48one of the main protagonists is a therapist
00:31:50who's trying to get this patient to speak.
00:31:52And he goes to his head therapist
00:31:55who's trying to help him get through
00:31:58this very difficult patient.
00:32:00And there's this line,
00:32:02"Tell me about the transference and counter-transference."
00:32:05And this was as I was starting to do therapy
00:32:07about two years ago.
00:32:08I went in all impressed with myself to tell my therapist
00:32:12that I learned what transference and counter-transference was,
00:32:14but I didn't learn about it from proper research.
00:32:16I learned about it from reading like an absolute,
00:32:19like USA Today best-selling chick thriller.
00:32:22But anyway, transference, counter-transference,
00:32:25you're sitting down with somebody with cluster B, et cetera.
00:32:28- Yeah, well, I mean, just in general,
00:32:31we all transfer and counter-transfer in life
00:32:33and human relationships.
00:32:34It's not just exclusive to therapy,
00:32:36but it's important to notice that it's happening in therapy
00:32:39because it gives you a lot of information
00:32:41as far as what's happening in the interaction.
00:32:44So, I mean, transference in the simplest terms
00:32:48is the feelings that are transferred
00:32:50onto the therapist by the patient.
00:32:52Counter-transference are some of the feelings
00:32:54or emotional reactions that take place
00:32:56inside of the therapist
00:32:57while they are interacting with the patient.
00:33:01So the reason why that's relevant
00:33:02is because we get to ask cool questions like,
00:33:05would I have been feeling this
00:33:07if I were sitting with anyone else right now?
00:33:08Or is this feeling that just got activated in me,
00:33:11is it directly related to the dynamic of this person
00:33:16that I'm interacting with?
00:33:17Because it starts to tell you information
00:33:19about how maybe other people are experiencing them
00:33:21outside of therapy in their personal life
00:33:24that maybe they're not super aware of.
00:33:27And they might actually, even a narcissist
00:33:29could genuinely come into a therapy office
00:33:31and not have a clue why everybody thinks
00:33:33they're so insensitive, right?
00:33:36All the while, the therapist is picking up
00:33:39on their insensitivity and having a counter-transference
00:33:41reaction to this insensitivity.
00:33:44Like gosh, it feels hard to sit in a room with this person.
00:33:46I feel incompetent.
00:33:47I feel scared.
00:33:49I feel different than I did before they showed up, right?
00:33:53So it's really important.
00:33:55But the typical counter-transference that results
00:33:59when you're sitting with somebody
00:34:02who meets the criteria for cluster B,
00:34:05I should say, yeah, typical or common counter-transference,
00:34:08or what the therapist feels in the room with them
00:34:10is you feel, I said a couple of them just now,
00:34:13oftentimes you just start to overwhelmingly feel incompetent.
00:34:17Like you don't know how to do your job
00:34:18or you're not qualified to do your job.
00:34:21And remember, this is just coming
00:34:22as you're sitting with someone.
00:34:24You weren't thinking about it earlier today
00:34:26on the drive to work.
00:34:27You were thinking, oh, I can't wait to go to work.
00:34:28I do a pretty good job.
00:34:30You know, I have a full practice.
00:34:31Then this person comes in and all of a sudden
00:34:33you feel like you can't do your job, right?
00:34:36So that's--
00:34:37- What is it, what is it, what are they doing?
00:34:38What is it--
00:34:39- They're devaluing you
00:34:40and not telling you that they're devaluing you.
00:34:44But you're starting to feel incompetent.
00:34:47So this is something that somebody
00:34:51with pretty severe personality pathology
00:34:53can sort of just put into the environment.
00:34:55They can export this out into the environment
00:34:58without saying a word.
00:34:59- Do you think they mean to?
00:35:00Is this an outcome that they want
00:35:03or is this a spandrel that's come along for the ride?
00:35:06So earlier you were asking
00:35:07about purpose evolutionary perspective.
00:35:11I would say this is an evolutionary perspective
00:35:14that would be important to look into.
00:35:16Can they put this spell into the environment,
00:35:19into the air for some sort of advantage for themselves
00:35:23that they might not even fully be aware of in the moment,
00:35:25but it's happening and it's starting to work for them.
00:35:28- It makes people want to compete.
00:35:31Allow me to show you just how competent I am.
00:35:33- No, no, no, no, I will over deliver.
00:35:36I will over, because there is this odd sense
00:35:39of interpersonal competition of one,
00:35:42but it's actually of none, right?
00:35:43It's just you, right?
00:35:44It's not a competition between you.
00:35:46It's that I need to prove myself
00:35:48because you don't seem impressed by me.
00:35:51Be impressed by me.
00:35:51Okay, I'll do a bit more.
00:35:53I'll do a bit more.
00:35:54I'll do a bit more.
00:35:54Beep, beep, finally.
00:35:55Please just recognize that I'm here.
00:35:57- Yeah, or if I can get the professional
00:36:01to tell me to feel incompetent,
00:36:04then I get to direct the treatment,
00:36:09which means maybe if they feel incompetent,
00:36:11they'll agree with me more.
00:36:13So see, I take them off their high horse of expertise.
00:36:18Now I get to kind of get what I want from them a little bit.
00:36:21Maybe I could pull the wool over their eyes.
00:36:24- Is there a bit more vulnerable?
00:36:25- This isn't exactly 100% conscious,
00:36:28but to me, I would still even,
00:36:30I would still refer to that tactic as intentional abuse
00:36:34because you're not showing up
00:36:36with the intention of playing fair,
00:36:39even in the conversation.
00:36:41- What else do you feel?
00:36:44- Fear and dread.
00:36:49And it's not always like 100% conscious of what you fear
00:36:57or what the dread is,
00:36:57but you can all of a sudden come up with this feeling.
00:37:00We also have a detection or a deception detection network
00:37:04in our brain, which gets hijacked by these types of tactics.
00:37:09You feel it and you stop thinking,
00:37:12if you get somebody who's good enough at manipulation,
00:37:15you could stop thinking, "Hmm, I'm feeling incompetent.
00:37:20"I wasn't before, now I am.
00:37:21"What's that about?"
00:37:22You might just think,
00:37:23"Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was."
00:37:25And that would be a really important thing
00:37:29for a victim of a narcissist to say to themselves.
00:37:32Maybe I'm not as good-- - Oh, of course,
00:37:33because that's dissolved their defenses
00:37:37around I'm not in the wrong, they're in the wrong.
00:37:40- Right, yeah.
00:37:42And this happens in milliseconds, by the way.
00:37:46This is all happening unconsciously
00:37:47when you're interacting with someone.
00:37:48So someone like me, I'm a few steps ahead,
00:37:53but not by any means immune.
00:37:56And I would never tell anybody,
00:37:58because even the foremost experts of this
00:38:00would never claim that they could never be sucker-punched.
00:38:05- Gazeed, finessed.
00:38:07- Yeah, but it's not really about
00:38:09becoming a human lie detector
00:38:10and knowing what everyone else is all about.
00:38:12That's not what you're trying to do.
00:38:13But you're trying to notice,
00:38:16when I'm with this particular person, I feel incompetent,
00:38:19I feel dread, I feel fear, I feel insecurity.
00:38:22And in most other relationships in my life,
00:38:24I don't operate that way.
00:38:26What's happening in this particular dynamic
00:38:29that's making me feel that way,
00:38:31that's kind of some things that a therapist
00:38:32would want to certainly be aware of
00:38:35if they're interacting with someone
00:38:37who potentially has a socially maladaptive personality.
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00:39:48How, you mentioned there about these people
00:39:51don't even mean to do it.
00:39:53Or it's happening in some forms unconsciously
00:39:56and in others.
00:39:57Of the population of cluster B personality,
00:40:02antisocial personality disorder people, patients,
00:40:07how many of them know what they're doing and mean to do it?
00:40:12And how many of them are at the mercy of their programming?
00:40:17And I suppose this is a difficult question
00:40:18because what we're talking about here is
00:40:21agency over empathy and ability to recognize
00:40:25and wish to do different.
00:40:26But unfortunately, the very personality trait
00:40:30that we're talking about
00:40:31curtails your ability to do the empathy thing.
00:40:33So it might be hard for someone to empathize
00:40:36with the damage of their lack of empathy
00:40:39and wish that they could do different.
00:40:40Would you understand the question here?
00:40:41How many people revel in what they're doing
00:40:43and how many people are fighting against it?
00:40:46- Yeah, that's a great question.
00:40:50So these are what we call egosyntonic disorders.
00:40:55What that means is they're comfortable in their own skin.
00:41:00So they're not experiencing the aftermath
00:41:05of these interactions as symptoms or side effects
00:41:09and wondering, what am I gonna do about this?
00:41:11Every time I'm in a room with somebody,
00:41:13they start to feel empirical.
00:41:14What's wrong with me?
00:41:15They don't think that way.
00:41:16A person who would think that way
00:41:20would be experiencing something that's ego-dystonic,
00:41:23ego-dystonia.
00:41:25This is interfering in my life
00:41:26in a way that I can't tolerate it.
00:41:28It's making me uncomfortable.
00:41:30I wanna rid myself of it.
00:41:31I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stop doing this thing,
00:41:34feeling this thing, saying this thing,
00:41:37having this dream, whatever.
00:41:38That's ego-dystonic.
00:41:39That means the person's aware that it's a problem.
00:41:42They don't like that it's originating in themselves.
00:41:44They wanna get rid of it.
00:41:45Personality disorders don't have that process
00:41:47because they have, these are ego-syntonic.
00:41:50So what that means is they're in harmony
00:41:52with the way they are.
00:41:54They just experience conflict
00:41:56when other people confront them about the way they are.
00:42:00So nothing in them is internally motivated to change
00:42:05'cause they don't think that the problem
00:42:06is originating with them.
00:42:08Okay, so that's one part of this.
00:42:10How intentional as a result of that?
00:42:14I would say it's as intentional as an introvert
00:42:19cultivating environments to cater to their introversion.
00:42:24That's how intentional it is, right?
00:42:26So what I mean by that is if you're an introvert,
00:42:30you're gonna select environments
00:42:33that cater to your introversion,
00:42:35your natural inclination to be introverted.
00:42:37And what does introversion entail, right?
00:42:40So you're gonna start creating environments
00:42:42that cater to that trait.
00:42:44And that's exactly what individuals
00:42:47with personality disorders do.
00:42:49They cultivate, select, modify their environments
00:42:52intentionally based on the traits
00:42:55that they bring to the environment.
00:42:58- What sort of ways?
00:42:59What are the things that they do?
00:43:00- Well, like a narcissist who wants
00:43:03to be the center of attention is gonna find a way
00:43:06to make an environment they're in,
00:43:10they're gonna cultivate the environment
00:43:12and select things to say and do
00:43:14and operate in the environment
00:43:16to get what they want from it, which is attention.
00:43:20So they're gonna intentionally behave in ways
00:43:22that are attention-seeking.
00:43:24Whereas an introvert is gonna intentionally behave in ways
00:43:26that draw attention to others,
00:43:28and then they're gonna regroup privately
00:43:31rather than go get stimulated social
00:43:33because that doesn't do it for them.
00:43:35So whatever the trait is, those behaviors are gonna,
00:43:41the behaviors that you engage in are gonna be motivated
00:43:44to cultivate how you feel with that trait.
00:43:47- Why is it called cluster B?
00:43:50Is there a cluster A?
00:43:52- Yeah, that's a good question.
00:43:54I mean, they're called cluster disorders
00:43:56'cause the features, not symptoms,
00:43:58the features and characteristics cluster together
00:44:00and overlap in the different disorders.
00:44:03There's cluster A.
00:44:05The cluster As are considered the odd and eccentric bunch.
00:44:10So odd, kind of bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors.
00:44:15The cluster Bs are the more interpersonally manipulative,
00:44:20exploitative, dramatic, erratic.
00:44:23So those are the cluster Bs.
00:44:24And then the cluster Cs are the anxious and fearful cluster.
00:44:28So disorders that operate around fear and anxiety
00:44:33being like the central feature
00:44:34rather than drama or erratic or dangerous,
00:44:39which is how we typically describe the cluster Bs.
00:44:43- What would a commonly understood term be
00:44:47for people who are cluster A?
00:44:48- What would a commonly understood term be?
00:44:52- Yeah, you're talking about narcissist and--
00:44:56- Okay, like paranoid or--
00:44:59- Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:00- Or schizoid or schizoid
00:45:03is interchangeably pronounced that way.
00:45:08The other cluster A is schizotypal.
00:45:12So we have schizotypal, schizoid, or schizoid,
00:45:16and paranoid are the cluster As.
00:45:19And then the cluster Cs are the avoidant, the dependent,
00:45:22and the, I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the spot.
00:45:29What's the third?
00:45:30What's the third cluster C?
00:45:37Obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
00:45:40There's avoidant, obsessive compulsive personality,
00:45:43which is completely different than OCD.
00:45:45Those aren't the same.
00:45:46- So when we look at cluster A, cluster B, and cluster C,
00:45:51do these fit on the spectrum?
00:45:52If you were to make a 3D or a 2D graph
00:45:56of how the clusters sit together, does that exist
00:45:59or are these completely different universes?
00:46:02- So they're not completely different universes
00:46:03because the problems that they create in the individual
00:46:08and in the individual's relationships
00:46:11are directly related to who the person characteristically is.
00:46:16So in cluster As, these individuals
00:46:21are characteristically odd and eccentric, okay?
00:46:25In cluster Bs, they're characteristically dramatic,
00:46:30erratic, dangerous, and severe interpersonally.
00:46:33And then in the cluster Cs,
00:46:35they're characteristically fearful and anxious.
00:46:39So all their relationships operate
00:46:43based on those types of motivations
00:46:46or intrinsic perceptions.
00:46:48- Okay, that's interesting.
00:46:50All right, going back to the sort of nature-nurture debate,
00:46:54why is the idea that hurt people hurt people so attractive?
00:46:59What makes that such a seductive explanation
00:47:01if behavioral genetics and Robert Plohman
00:47:04and a couple of fucking million people
00:47:06from the biobank can explain otherwise?
00:47:09- Yeah.
00:47:11Well, I think one is 'cause the work of Robert Plohman,
00:47:14this isn't a conspiracy theory.
00:47:19I mean, it's been admittedly swept under the rug
00:47:22in academic circles and clinical circles
00:47:26because it seems to really intimidate people
00:47:29that there might be like strategy and pattern
00:47:34to what we have decided is a negative behavior
00:47:39at this point in our evolution, right?
00:47:43That the negative behavior could potentially come naturally
00:47:48or be ingrained is terrifying for people to accept.
00:47:52So what they've done instead is created this idea
00:47:55that everything is environmentally determined.
00:47:58So the reason why there's a preference for that
00:48:03is if the environment created it,
00:48:07maybe the environment can stop it and prevent it
00:48:10or modify it.
00:48:12- Well, look, I suppose this is a debate
00:48:14around behavioral genetics overall,
00:48:18but Plohman is the fifth most cited psychologist
00:48:23in the 20th century.
00:48:24That was a century that had fucking Freud.
00:48:28That was a century that had Jung.
00:48:30That was a century that had
00:48:32at some of the biggest turning points in,
00:48:34it invented the field of psychology as we know it today.
00:48:38And he's the fifth most cited.
00:48:41And the fact that the industry, he's been on the show,
00:48:44I think he was episode 320 something,
00:48:46it was a long time ago now.
00:48:48The fact that behavioral genetics is so...
00:48:58Like heretical to talk about,
00:49:01it just fucking blows my mind.
00:49:03Do you know Corey Clark?
00:49:04Are you familiar with her?
00:49:05She's an evolutionary psychologist.
00:49:07She did a great study.
00:49:07She sent a study out to,
00:49:09a survey out to every psychology professor
00:49:11in the United States at a higher education institution,
00:49:14got them to fill in some anonymous questions,
00:49:18asking about a variety of things,
00:49:21getting a cultural temperature,
00:49:22the topography of what the psychology professor world
00:49:27is like the two most unspeakable,
00:49:30this should be banned, people should not learn about it.
00:49:33The two spiciest subject areas
00:49:38that most professors were most likely to say
00:49:42they shouldn't be taught,
00:49:44evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics.
00:49:47And I think it speaks exactly to what you were saying there,
00:49:50that in an egalitarian world that's a meritocracy
00:49:53and also a capitalist competition,
00:49:55if the victors get to own their successes
00:49:59and the losers have to own their failures,
00:50:03anything that doesn't feel like your future
00:50:05is entirely in your hands is unbelievably disempowering
00:50:10because it makes it feel like the outcomes in your life
00:50:13are predestined before you're even born.
00:50:15And as you said, this isn't deterministic.
00:50:17It's probabilistic.
00:50:18As Plohman says, it does not predetermine, it predisposes.
00:50:21But it is disempowering.
00:50:24It is disempowering to find,
00:50:26Chris Hemsworth did that documentary about his health
00:50:29and he found out that he's got a couple of
00:50:32relatively rare mutations
00:50:33that predispose him to Alzheimer's.
00:50:35I mean, this is just raw biology
00:50:39and he's now taking supplements
00:50:42and adjusted his lifestyle and his diet
00:50:43and all the rest of it to try and compensate for this.
00:50:46But to find out that you've got your kid
00:50:50and if you were to have a child that had
00:50:54diabetes or autism,
00:50:57you're not looking necessarily for some sort of
00:51:01intervention to cure their autism.
00:51:03You're looking to manage it.
00:51:05Because we don't pathologize,
00:51:07the pathologization occurs more differently
00:51:12when we get into psychology than it does
00:51:14when we get into what feels a bit more like biology,
00:51:16even though biology is psychology for the most part.
00:51:18Yeah, it's just, I could talk about this all day.
00:51:23I think it's so fucking interesting, dude.
00:51:25The pushback against evolutionary explanations
00:51:28that basically say you are being shunted forward
00:51:33by forces that came about long before you
00:51:39and are kind of outside of your agency
00:51:42or at the very least you're gonna have
00:51:44to permanently fight against.
00:51:46That feels disempowering and behavioral genetics
00:51:49is that on steroids, right?
00:51:51It's that times a thousand.
00:51:53You can't change your genes.
00:51:55You can maybe turn them up and turn them down
00:51:57with some epigenetic stuff.
00:51:58But gene therapy as far as we know is pretty nascent.
00:52:03So yeah, it's an interesting area.
00:52:07- Something that I love about what Plohman does though
00:52:09is he talks about how everything is just,
00:52:13when we look at it from that perspective,
00:52:14everything is then just differences, right?
00:52:17Which I appreciate.
00:52:18I like to use the word disorder because I think
00:52:20once you cross a particular threshold of harm
00:52:23and dysfunction, we have to call it something different.
00:52:26I mean, we can say it's like a huge difference.
00:52:29But clinically, it makes more sense to say,
00:52:32okay, this is where we're operating outside
00:52:34of the bounds of what we can accept.
00:52:36And so we have to call it something other than just,
00:52:39oh, this person's very unique and different.
00:52:41We have to say, this is problematic behavior
00:52:44based on the type of society we're trying
00:52:46to collectively create, right?
00:52:49I don't find it surprising that those are the two subjects
00:52:53that are considered to be the problematic ones.
00:52:58I'm not sure why people are so intimidated by that.
00:53:03I do know that the problem is too,
00:53:05is Freud kind of commanded the ship
00:53:08of having this impenetrable, untestable theory.
00:53:13No one can ever really prove it wrong
00:53:16because it just might be that much more unconscious,
00:53:20never find it, and I think that--
00:53:21- It's unconsciousness all the way down.
00:53:23- Yeah, but that's not, I mean, that's not science.
00:53:28You have to be able to test it.
00:53:30- All right, let's get into some of the different ways
00:53:32that people can present.
00:53:33So narcissism, I see an endless number of videos online
00:53:38about how to know if you're in a relationship
00:53:41with a narcissist, how to escape a narcissist.
00:53:44When it comes to narcissism as the motivating force
00:53:49behind it, is narcissism about,
00:53:50is it really about low self-esteem?
00:53:52Or is it about something else?
00:53:54What's it about?
00:53:55- No, narcissism is excessive investment
00:53:59in one's image, the image that they prefer.
00:54:03It's excessive investment in that preferred image
00:54:05at the expense of any authentic self.
00:54:08So it's not that they have low self-esteem
00:54:12in this void of shame, which is the most common idea.
00:54:16I can direct you to behavioral geneticists
00:54:19and evolutionary psychologists that can blow that theory
00:54:21out of the water if you want.
00:54:23But it's not a shame-based disorder.
00:54:26It's excessive investment in one's preferred image
00:54:30at the expense of cultivating a true self.
00:54:33So yeah, they get hurt and wounded and offended
00:54:36and defensive, and they get triggered and they get injured
00:54:41because they haven't cultivated anything
00:54:43to receive a disagreement underneath that thin layer
00:54:48of reflection that's on the pond
00:54:51that narcissist is gazing at.
00:54:53There's nothing under there because nothing
00:54:55has been examined or cultivated.
00:54:58So it's like they're emotionally thin-skinned,
00:55:02but it's not because of shame.
00:55:05It's because they didn't put any emotional muscle
00:55:08underneath any of that.
00:55:12But they prefer to be the way they are.
00:55:14I think this really bothers people.
00:55:15Why would anybody prefer to be someone
00:55:17who doesn't get along with anybody?
00:55:19They're entitled, they don't believe in equality.
00:55:21So in a way, they expect not to get along with anybody
00:55:25because everybody has to accept that they are better
00:55:28than them in order for them to get along with everybody.
00:55:31Somehow, this got morphed into this idea
00:55:37that it's all compensatory,
00:55:39that it's all compensation for low self-esteem.
00:55:42Those are just theories based, by the way,
00:55:45on the reports of the narcissists telling professionals that.
00:55:49- Perhaps an unreliable self-witness.
00:55:52- Perhaps.
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00:56:52Difference between vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.
00:56:56Does this show up?
00:56:58'Cause I know these terms.
00:56:59I can pretend that I know what I'm talking about
00:57:00with narcissism, but is that bullshit
00:57:02or is that clinically validated?
00:57:04- I'm sure you know exactly what they are.
00:57:06A grandiose narcissist is somebody who
00:57:09you see their grandiosity overtly,
00:57:12meaning they're not concealing it.
00:57:14Vulnerable narcissism, depending on who you ask,
00:57:18one definition of vulnerable is
00:57:21they're concealing their vulnerability.
00:57:24So a covert narcissist is someone
00:57:26who conceals their vulnerability.
00:57:27To me, a covert narcissist is somebody
00:57:29who covertly is grandiose.
00:57:32They act like they're not, but they actually are.
00:57:35So it's the-- - So you're using
00:57:37the term covert rather than vulnerable.
00:57:39Is that the more clinically accurate term?
00:57:41- Covert and vulnerable narcissists
00:57:43are used interchangeably for a lot of people
00:57:45because of the concealing of the vulnerability.
00:57:49An overt narcissist is somebody
00:57:54who doesn't hide the fact that they believe
00:57:56that they are entitled to special treatment.
00:57:58So you're gonna see them a mile away.
00:58:02They know they're-- - Do you look at them
00:58:05as having different origin stories,
00:58:07coming from different places, different motivations?
00:58:11- No, I personally don't.
00:58:13I think that grandiosity is just being expressed differently
00:58:16in those two individuals.
00:58:17But the central feature of both of those individuals
00:58:20is still their inherent grandiosity.
00:58:23- But their self-belief in that is different, right?
00:58:27- No, I would disagree with that too.
00:58:29I think their belief is that they truly
00:58:32have a sincere conviction that they're superior to others
00:58:35and entitled to special treatment.
00:58:37That's when we're gonna get into heterogeneity
00:58:40or the expression of that belief.
00:58:42It looks a lot different.
00:58:43- Interesting.
00:58:44So my understanding of vulnerable or covert narcissism
00:58:48was that the grandiose narcissist genuinely believes
00:58:52I'm the best in the world
00:58:53and I believe that I'm the best in the world.
00:58:55The vulnerable narcissist would present
00:58:58I'm the best in the world to try and cover up the fact
00:59:01that I don't think I'm worth anything.
00:59:03- They're the compensatory one who's secretly suffering
00:59:06from all this hidden shame, right?
00:59:09I disagree.
00:59:11I think that the problem is they're not shameful enough.
00:59:14They don't have enough shame to put on the brakes
00:59:16to stop mistreating people.
00:59:18There's no motivating factor in their operating system
00:59:20that puts on the brakes
00:59:22'cause they're lacking in empathy and lacking in conscience.
00:59:25They've done recent studies too to show
00:59:27that what we've historically referred to as
00:59:31the vulnerable expression
00:59:35or the vulnerable presentation of narcissism
00:59:37is 90% identical to borderline personality disorder
00:59:43in criterion variables, traits.
00:59:46Borderline personality disorder
00:59:48is another cluster B disorder that is often associated with.
00:59:52Most people, when they hear the term borderline personality,
00:59:55they think of fear of abandonment,
00:59:57lots of suicidal gestures or suicidal attempts.
01:00:01There's this chronic feeling of emptiness
01:00:03and these attempts, panic and frantic attempts
01:00:09to avoid abandonment.
01:00:12But what actually is underneath a lot of that
01:00:15are if you look at the traits
01:00:17underneath the borderline personality
01:00:19are what we see, how we see vulnerable narcissists
01:00:24operating in relationships and in general.
01:00:27There's a lot of neurotic traits, negative affectivity,
01:00:31and so there's this impulsivity, there's a lashing out.
01:00:33There's pathological levels of anxiety.
01:00:40- Is that the same in the grandiose?
01:00:41- Well, no, it's not the same in the sense
01:00:45that they're not experiencing themselves that way.
01:00:50But just like we have people
01:00:55who look narcissistic very externally,
01:01:01there are also people who are narcissistic internal.
01:01:03- Okay, so one of the common patterns
01:01:07that I see people talk about online
01:01:08is narcissists pulling somebody in close
01:01:11and then suddenly pushing them away.
01:01:13Why does that seem to be a pattern?
01:01:19- Well, because narcissists live in a dichotomous world
01:01:23where something is either everything they want
01:01:25or nothing they want.
01:01:26They don't have the gray area, break pedal, pause,
01:01:29limitation mechanism in their operating system.
01:01:33They don't have the function to use that properly.
01:01:35So somebody's either idealized,
01:01:37which means they're everything that they could have ever
01:01:40wanted, or they're devalued and then discarded,
01:01:43which means they're not ideal, so they're useless.
01:01:48Narcissists see human beings and relationships
01:01:50as far as utility, not worth.
01:01:55They don't look at people how much they're worth.
01:01:57They look at how useful they are.
01:01:58- What about psychopaths?
01:02:02What makes, so I'm trying to find what the acceptable level
01:02:07of something is and then turn it up
01:02:09to what the dysfunction is.
01:02:11So what makes a psychopath's harm different
01:02:14to somebody who's just losing their temper?
01:02:17Everybody's lost their temper.
01:02:18- Right, and that's a reaction, and that's a defense,
01:02:21and that's part of being human.
01:02:25I would say, to differentiate between these two
01:02:27that we're talking about, with narcissism,
01:02:29we see grandiosity at the expense of equality,
01:02:33and that's the engine, grandiosity
01:02:36at the expense of equality.
01:02:37With psychopaths, what we see is exploitation of others
01:02:42at the expense of any sort of honor.
01:02:46They don't honor humans.
01:02:49They don't have any value for human life whatsoever.
01:02:53They don't see another person and think,
01:02:55this person should be alive or has the right to be alive.
01:03:00What they think is, I will exploit this person.
01:03:04It's a dog-eat-dog world.
01:03:06If something bad befalls them, they should have known better.
01:03:10That's kind of a psychopath's mentality.
01:03:16Psychopaths, for the most part,
01:03:20have more of an active grandiosity,
01:03:23so if you do cross them, they're gonna show you.
01:03:27They're gonna make you pay.
01:03:28Some narcissists have what's called a passive grandiosity,
01:03:32where they don't care enough about you to make you pay.
01:03:34You should have just known they were better than you,
01:03:37and so they're not gonna bother themselves with you.
01:03:39- Oh, that's interesting.
01:03:40I imagine this means that, in some situations,
01:03:43psychopaths are more dangerous, retributively,
01:03:47but there must be some situations where narcissists,
01:03:50or certain types of narcissists, might be more dangerous.
01:03:53- So you venture into the malignant narcissist,
01:03:56is when you're starting to move more
01:03:57into the exploitation and conning
01:03:59that you see common in psychopathy or antisocials.
01:04:02So there is like a sort of a bridge to that,
01:04:07where the malignant narcissist is kind of the bridge
01:04:09between NPD and psychopathy.
01:04:12Again, not across the board, but just to give a visual
01:04:16that, yes, there is a severe degree of narcissism.
01:04:20And then that's what we would refer to more
01:04:21as like the dark triad narcissism,
01:04:26where you have psychopathy, machiavellianism, and narcissism.
01:04:30- The dark triad thing's kind of fascinating.
01:04:34It's between Peterson and a bunch of other people
01:04:37that do podcasts, it's become like the hot new girl
01:04:40in school that everybody wants to talk about.
01:04:41The dark tetrad, what's that one?
01:04:44That's, what's that one?
01:04:47Sadism?
01:04:49- Sadism, yeah.
01:04:50- Is that, that's the fourth one,
01:04:52when you go for the, when you add another?
01:04:54Anyway, how common is it for somebody
01:04:59who has got narcissism to also have psychopathy,
01:05:02to also have machiavellianism, to also have sadism?
01:05:05- Ah, good question.
01:05:07Not all narcissists and psychopaths are machiavellian, okay?
01:05:12All psychopaths are narcissists.
01:05:18All psychopaths are pathologically narcissistic.
01:05:22Not all narcissists are psychopaths.
01:05:25- Okay, necessary but not sufficient.
01:05:28- Yeah, yeah.
01:05:29And then machiavellian, I would say they're psychopathic,
01:05:35narcissistic, so they're both.
01:05:39So I mean, as far as, not all narcissists are machiavellian,
01:05:43not all narcissists are psychopathic.
01:05:45All machiavellian and psychopaths are narcissistic.
01:05:49- Are all machiavellian psychopaths?
01:05:51- Ooh, good question.
01:05:53I guess if they're practicing,
01:05:57I guess you could be machiavellian in theory,
01:06:00but you wouldn't ever do the things.
01:06:02- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:03What about sadism?
01:06:04I imagine it must be difficult to be a sadist
01:06:06and not be a psychopath.
01:06:08- Yeah, well, I mean, sadism is all about
01:06:10deriving pleasure from the harm you inflict on others
01:06:13or the harm that others are experiencing
01:06:15that you just witnessed.
01:06:16You could experience pleasure from the pain they're deriving.
01:06:19But again, not all narcissists are sadistic.
01:06:26You could have a narcissist.
01:06:28- Okay, so it seems to me like narcissism is kind of,
01:06:34I don't, it's a front end of the funnel.
01:06:37It's the front door to the house.
01:06:39It's the white belt.
01:06:42It's the white belt of much of what we're talking about here.
01:06:45- To a degree, yes, because in order for you
01:06:49to graduate to these other, you know,
01:06:52whatever you want to call them,
01:06:53just antisocial, not prosocial.
01:06:56If you want to graduate to a way of being
01:06:59where you're not interested in prosocial emotions
01:07:02or behaviors at all, you could start with narcissism
01:07:05because narcissism is something that primarily
01:07:08we're supposed to outgrow when we realize
01:07:11other people exist, not, relationships aren't symbiotic.
01:07:16You know, there's others who have a subjectivity to them.
01:07:19Once you discover that in life,
01:07:20and that usually happens very early,
01:07:23someone says no to you, once you discover
01:07:26that someone else has autonomy and subjectivity,
01:07:28your narcissism is supposed to be challenged
01:07:30and you're supposed to start trying to find ways
01:07:32to outgrow it in favor of equality, right?
01:07:35- Right, so you're saying that all two-year-olds
01:07:37are narcissists in some way?
01:07:39- I think all two-year-olds are self-centered
01:07:41because they don't have the brain wiring
01:07:42to be like altruistic 'cause no one can explain it to them
01:07:46in a two-year-old language that they don't understand.
01:07:49- I'm hungry, I don't care that people are tired, I'm hungry.
01:07:54And after a while, you realize I'm hungry,
01:07:56but mom and dad are busy at the moment,
01:07:58so maybe I'll delay this.
01:08:01But with the narcissism,
01:08:03that lesson kind of never really gets to learned.
01:08:05- But even that hunger is not
01:08:08pathologically narcissistic because--
01:08:15- It's transient.
01:08:17- Yeah, because does that baby have the capacity
01:08:21to learn the lesson that you just described?
01:08:24That okay, well, it's not gonna happen every time
01:08:26on command or on demand.
01:08:28You're gonna have to wait a little bit, cry a little bit,
01:08:30you're gonna have to be a little uncomfortable in that diaper
01:08:33until human mom can come over and be human with you.
01:08:37Now, a pathological narcissist or somebody
01:08:41that I would say has trait, inherent trait narcissism,
01:08:44they'll never learn that lesson from mom.
01:08:47Oh, mom's too tired, she's got stuff to do
01:08:49before she comes here.
01:08:50They can't for the life of them figure out
01:08:52why the diaper isn't changed like that,
01:08:54and then they hold resentment and then they punish mom for it
01:08:58and they feel entitled to do that.
01:09:00And then they can't for the life of them
01:09:02figure out why somebody would ever have a problem with them
01:09:04punching mom for that.
01:09:06That's the problematic narcissism that is a complete,
01:09:10to me, it's a completely different trajectory
01:09:12than the primary narcissism that we all outgrow
01:09:16when we see that other people exist.
01:09:19There's something different at the start.
01:09:21- Of all of the different traits here,
01:09:22which is the hardest to treat or change?
01:09:26Which is the hardest to have an intervention on?
01:09:27Is it psychopathy?
01:09:28Is that the hardest to try and adjust?
01:09:31- Well, there is no known cure
01:09:37or successful treatment for psychopathy.
01:09:39You contain and manage psychopathy, you don't treat it.
01:09:44There's no treatment for it.
01:09:45They haven't figured something else out yet
01:09:49that can actually cultivate change in the personality
01:09:53of a psychopath.
01:09:53Even an incarcerated psychopath,
01:09:55they don't think differently.
01:09:58They just behave differently 'cause they're confined.
01:10:00So at this point in history,
01:10:03antisocial personality, psychopathy,
01:10:05there isn't an effective treatment
01:10:08other than some behavioral containment and management.
01:10:11So that would be the hardest one to treat or to, you know.
01:10:18But I would say that just in general,
01:10:21not clinically, but in general life,
01:10:24somebody who really doesn't understand
01:10:26the concept of equality,
01:10:28I'd say that's the hardest thing to overcome.
01:10:30So grandiosity to me, practically speaking,
01:10:35would be the most difficult trait to deal with
01:10:37because this person seriously is convinced
01:10:40that you should be treating them differently
01:10:42than they should be treating you
01:10:45because they are worth more
01:10:46and you need to find a way to come to terms with that.
01:10:49That, to me, is the most challenging one.
01:10:51- Because the sort of presence of it
01:10:57precludes the fixing of it.
01:10:59- By nature, you would have to accept that you're less than.
01:11:03- In order to improve.
01:11:04I'm perfect as I am.
01:11:05- Yeah.
01:11:06- It's kind of like being immune in some way
01:11:10to what the treatment would be.
01:11:12Like a therapy-resistant bacteria or something.
01:11:17- Right.
01:11:20Which those exist.
01:11:21So I think they exist in human personality too.
01:11:25There's a resistant personality.
01:11:26There's a personality that's resistant
01:11:28because they don't see any benefit from changing.
01:11:32They like the way they are.
01:11:33They're just waiting for everyone to accept them.
01:11:35- We'll get back to talking in just one second,
01:11:37but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish,
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01:12:35That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
01:12:39- All right, talking about how this shows up
01:12:42on the other side of the fence,
01:12:44on the side of the recipient, the interlocutor
01:12:48with the person with the particular disorder,
01:12:52what are the main tools of control?
01:12:55What are the big levers that these people push and pull
01:12:58and the dials that they turn in order to enact change
01:13:03in the other person?
01:13:06- The first thing that they typically do
01:13:08is they either naturally or they become highly skilled
01:13:13at mimicking the prosocial emotions
01:13:16that most human beings think everybody possesses
01:13:19and operates under naturally.
01:13:22So what that means is when you meet someone
01:13:26and they are friendly to you, you don't think to yourself,
01:13:29I wonder if they're being friendly to manipulate me.
01:13:32What you think is, that person's friendly.
01:13:36And so they mimic that, they mimic the typical
01:13:40cues that would indicate that they're a human.
01:13:48They mimic them and they do it very well
01:13:51so that you let your guard down.
01:13:52And they do it long enough for you to completely
01:13:55give up on the possibility that it's insincere.
01:14:00They do that long enough.
01:14:01And we call that the seduction phase
01:14:03or the love bombing phase.
01:14:05They are an ideal partner.
01:14:07They have the same trauma you have,
01:14:08the same interests you have,
01:14:10the same lifestyle and life goals as you have.
01:14:13They're practically getting,
01:14:15they're reflecting you back to yourself
01:14:17so that you'll give them the time of day.
01:14:20That's the first thing to look out for
01:14:23because the moment you see that slip
01:14:26or there's an inconsistency or a contradiction
01:14:28is when you can't just take it as,
01:14:30oh, maybe they're having a bad day.
01:14:31You have to start doing, sadly,
01:14:33you have to start doing this skeptical
01:14:36scientific investigation on that behavior
01:14:40to see if there's any convergence,
01:14:44to see if this is something that could potentially
01:14:46result in a pattern or a strategy.
01:14:48- Okay, so that's first step.
01:14:54They larp as a normal human.
01:14:58- Yeah, it's process of emotions or effort.
01:15:02- That's almost always the first,
01:15:03because presumably if you steamed in
01:15:05with psychopathic, manipulative, BPD behavior
01:15:10before somebody is invested in you,
01:15:12the bad first date, nobody sticks about
01:15:18just because, okay, that was a bit much on a first date.
01:15:22Whereas a bad seven-month anniversary,
01:15:26you're like, oh, I can give them
01:15:28a little bit more tolerance here.
01:15:29- So that kind of, we need to invest in people
01:15:34before we can accommodate them?
01:15:36- Correct.
01:15:37- That is kind of the--
01:15:38- Very well said, very well said.
01:15:40You need to invest, yeah, you need to invest in them
01:15:43before you just accept them at face value.
01:15:46- Cool, okay, what next?
01:15:47- Okay, so when there's a slip that we typically,
01:15:51in hindsight, call a red flag,
01:15:53but as it's happening, we have confirmation bias
01:15:55and we go, no, it's not that bad.
01:15:56It's just, they're just human.
01:15:58You need, when there's a slip, so when the mask slips,
01:16:01when there's something that's blatantly,
01:16:03in contrast to their pro-social presentation
01:16:09that they gave you on the first or second or third date,
01:16:11where it was flawless and they're the person of your dreams,
01:16:14at the moment, there's something that's a contradiction
01:16:16or an inconsistency.
01:16:17No matter how benign or incidental it seems,
01:16:22you have to take it very seriously
01:16:25and you need to start developing this idea in your head
01:16:30that you're gonna see, you're gonna repeat this investigation
01:16:34to see if a pattern converges, right?
01:16:37If it's a one-off, if it's an isolated incident,
01:16:39then stay reasonably alert, but not hyper-vigilant.
01:16:43Just, okay, I noted.
01:16:44But this is where people go wrong.
01:16:47We naturally are not neutral information processors, or not.
01:16:55So we're biased to information, is my point.
01:17:00So if you want a relationship to work
01:17:02'cause you really liked that person on the first date
01:17:04and you really thought they were cute
01:17:05and you really liked that they lived close to you,
01:17:08if they slip up, you're gonna use the prior information
01:17:13that you know about them to justify
01:17:15why you should still be with them.
01:17:17Humans don't justify why they should not be with someone,
01:17:20typically.
01:17:22That's part of kinship, that's part of evolution,
01:17:24that's part of, you know, loss avoidance, right?
01:17:28So the first time there's a red flag,
01:17:31you have to be counterintuitively attuned to it
01:17:36'cause it's not gonna come naturally
01:17:38for you to investigate it.
01:17:39What's gonna come naturally is for you to erase it
01:17:41and forget about it.
01:17:42That's the second thing you do,
01:17:44is the moment there's an issue
01:17:46that you could potentially test for a pattern,
01:17:48you need to investigate it.
01:17:50Don't resolve the dissonance by saying,
01:17:53"Oh, well, there's more good than bad."
01:17:55That would be the second step.
01:17:58- It seems like attention,
01:18:01where attention is being drawn and where it's being put
01:18:05is a really important tool of control here, is that right?
01:18:09- Absolutely.
01:18:10Well, 'cause just think about
01:18:11how you've done your past relationships.
01:18:13You don't think you should have to add this step of analysis.
01:18:17You just think, "That felt good, that was cool.
01:18:20Oh, they showed up again a second time.
01:18:22That felt good, that was cool.
01:18:24I might be falling in love here."
01:18:26Or, "This person's a really good friend.
01:18:27They're really generous, twice now."
01:18:30We have to accept the sad reality
01:18:31that people know and bank on you thinking that way,
01:18:35and they're gonna exploit that from the beginning.
01:18:38You just have to introduce that into your worldview.
01:18:43Or you run the risk of getting duped or manipulated
01:18:47by one of these people.
01:18:48And it could be financially devastating,
01:18:50emotionally devastating, devastating with your time,
01:18:55your resources.
01:18:57- Is there a particular profile of victim
01:19:02that these sorts of people tend to go for?
01:19:04- Good question.
01:19:06I would say no, and here's why.
01:19:09- Oh, they're an equal opportunity attacker.
01:19:13- I think they vet everyone, and the analogy I use
01:19:16is often like the used car salesperson.
01:19:19Anyone who shows up on the lot,
01:19:21they're gonna try to sell a used car to you.
01:19:22They're not gonna try to figure out how vulnerable you are.
01:19:25They're gonna just start doing their things,
01:19:27their pitches first.
01:19:29They will stick around the people who take the second,
01:19:32third, fourth, and fifth pitch.
01:19:34I mean, the one that just walks away outright,
01:19:36they're not gonna necessarily follow home.
01:19:38- Oh, they're just split testing
01:19:40for who's got sufficient resilience to put up with them.
01:19:42- There will eventually be somebody
01:19:44who is resilient enough, not because they're flawed,
01:19:47but because they just have a lot of resilience,
01:19:50who will take the fifth and sixth and seventh piece of BS
01:19:54and not like fact check or do anything.
01:19:57And then those are the ones they'll latch onto.
01:20:00- Actually, it's not necessarily that they're,
01:20:02well, it is a kind of selection,
01:20:04but it's closer to natural selection than conscious selection.
01:20:07They're gonna put out a particular type of behavior
01:20:12and there is gonna be a drop-off
01:20:15and a survival bias is gonna kick in and whoever is left.
01:20:18So this is a different way for me to ask the same question.
01:20:22Who are the people that end up in these situations?
01:20:25'Cause it seems to me it would be counterintuitive
01:20:30to think about somebody who is mentally resilient
01:20:32because a lot of the time when I think about people
01:20:34who are in relationships with BPD, narcissism, personality,
01:20:36it's that they were almost a kind of vulnerability,
01:20:39there was a vulnerability that was manipulated by them.
01:20:42So how do you square, is it resilience?
01:20:44Is there something else?
01:20:45Who are the people that end up going deep?
01:20:48- I would say it's an emotional resilience.
01:20:51They can take a beating long, long enough
01:20:56to where by the time they even start entertaining
01:21:00the possibility that they should exit the relationship,
01:21:03they're already kind of biochemically hijacked
01:21:06by the dynamic.
01:21:07And so, but I'm cautious to have this conversation
01:21:12to say that I think that you should be less agreeable
01:21:16or less conscientious or less kind
01:21:18'cause those aren't the things
01:21:19that got you into the bad situation.
01:21:22What got you into the bad situation
01:21:23is someone exploiting those things.
01:21:25- Well, that's exactly what I was thinking
01:21:27as you were talking.
01:21:28You're saying, well, you must be careful about this thing
01:21:31at the first stage and this thing at the second stage.
01:21:33I go, wow, what a difficult,
01:21:36how skeptical and cynical and highly scrutinous I must be
01:21:41of all of the different people that I encounter
01:21:43in case they're gonna,
01:21:44and what you're suggesting is that the issue
01:21:46is not your positive traits.
01:21:51It was that there was a vector of weakness,
01:21:54perhaps a strength turned up too much,
01:21:56your psychological resilience,
01:21:58your preparedness to turn the other cheek and forgive,
01:22:00your perhaps leaky boundaries, inability to assert.
01:22:04I have to assume that a lack of assertiveness
01:22:06is maybe one of the things that would be quite common here.
01:22:10- Well, yeah, I mean,
01:22:13fear that if you assert yourself
01:22:14that you're gonna like offend the person
01:22:16or that if standing up for yourself
01:22:18means that the other person is gonna be disappointed.
01:22:20I mean, I think that there's always gonna be room
01:22:24for all of us to investigate our own character
01:22:28and our own vulnerabilities.
01:22:30I just personally, I've seen people who have been,
01:22:33who have come from very well, well-to-do
01:22:37and emotionally stable upbringings get duped by this,
01:22:42following the death of their spouse, let's say.
01:22:45Like they're vulnerable in that sense,
01:22:47but they were never somebody who was like a pushover
01:22:49or somebody who like gave everyone everything they ever wanted.
01:22:54They just so happened to be in a vulnerable spot at 60
01:22:58when they're widowed and now they wanna fall in love again.
01:23:01And somebody swooped, goes into their orbit and exploits them.
01:23:05You don't need a history of being a doormat
01:23:08or a history of being abused as a child
01:23:10to fall prey to these individuals.
01:23:12They will vet anyone.
01:23:14That's just important to realize.
01:23:17So I'm cautious to,
01:23:21I don't want people to think
01:23:22that they have to do a personality makeover
01:23:24to avoid this either.
01:23:26I think that's what a lot of, unfortunately,
01:23:29a lot of people that I've worked with
01:23:31and that I've consulted with,
01:23:33they tell me that they've gone to three or four therapists
01:23:35who have told them this only happened
01:23:37'cause you're codependent
01:23:38or 'cause you have an easier attachment
01:23:40or because you didn't work out your childhood issues
01:23:42with your mom and you were vulnerable to this.
01:23:45That's not necessarily true.
01:23:47No, it might be that there's just,
01:23:48we have to come to terms with the fact that
01:23:51there are people who don't play by the social rules
01:23:53we've decided are beneficial.
01:23:56And so they're gonna pretend to play by them
01:23:58and then they're gonna exploit you.
01:24:00And it's not that you had a bad childhood
01:24:02or your relationship with your dad wasn't strong enough.
01:24:04It's just that person found an opportunity.
01:24:07They're preferential and opportunistic.
01:24:09- With other bits of behavior,
01:24:13what about flirting or creating drama to manipulate people?
01:24:18When does flirting and drama turn into manipulation?
01:24:24- In the cluster B personalities,
01:24:30seduction is kind of like a central feature of that,
01:24:35is charm and seduction and charisma.
01:24:41So I would say, I mean,
01:24:43that's kind of a hard question to answer
01:24:44because they use that as a--
01:24:48- Flirtation is manipulation.
01:24:51- They use it to begin with.
01:24:52Even if they're sincerely attracted to you,
01:24:55they're still using flirtation as a weapon.
01:25:00- Are people with cluster B personality disorders,
01:25:03are they more attractive on average, physically?
01:25:07- Why do you ask?
01:25:09That's an interesting question.
01:25:11- I was wondering whether there is a physical manifestation
01:25:15that goes along with the behavioral trait.
01:25:18- Yeah, that's a good question.
01:25:19That'd be a good question
01:25:23for an evolutionary psychologist too.
01:25:26But I mean, I'll answer it kind of generically, if you will.
01:25:29I think there's an interesting correlation.
01:25:32It's common for them to be attractive.
01:25:37There's not a particular physical type though.
01:25:39I don't want to give off that idea.
01:25:40- Short, tall, big.
01:25:42- I think what it adds more to do with is someone's,
01:25:44not their actual physical appearance,
01:25:45but their self-concept.
01:25:48They have a very high self-concept.
01:25:52So it's almost like they have this way of convincing you
01:25:55to believe about them what they believe about themselves,
01:25:58even if it's not objectively true.
01:26:01So that's why I'm kind of hesitant,
01:26:02is 'cause somebody who is objectively unattractive
01:26:05could be a cluster bee and actually be very attractive.
01:26:10Like people would find them very attractive,
01:26:13even if they're not traditionally
01:26:14what we would constitute it.
01:26:16- That's their presentation.
01:26:17It's beguiling, endearing, charming.
01:26:21- And it's also their authentic belief
01:26:23that they're that great.
01:26:25I mean, it's a sincere belief.
01:26:28That's why I say it's not a compensation
01:26:29'cause they truly are, they're feeling great.
01:26:33- Well, we use confidence as a proxy for competence, right?
01:26:38Like it's typically confidence is a lagging measure
01:26:41of somebody's level of development
01:26:44in whatever they are confident about.
01:26:51Like a competence is in some way supposed to be associated
01:26:54with whatever the fuck we're confident about.
01:26:56And therefore, if somebody turns up
01:26:58and they're full of bravado and they're very seductive,
01:27:01that can give the effect of being attractive
01:27:06without the challenge of having to be attractive.
01:27:10- Correct.
01:27:11- And it's, I guess, messy or at least complex
01:27:14the way that humans become attracted.
01:27:16It's not raw physicality. - It is messy.
01:27:19That's an important aspect.
01:27:20I think a lot of times what we mistake,
01:27:23what we mistake arrogance for confidence
01:27:25in these individuals.
01:27:27So they are very relaxed and they're calm
01:27:31and we can think, oh, they're comfortable in their own skin.
01:27:34Maybe they're really confident.
01:27:36They could actually just be arrogant, right?
01:27:39So the difference between confidence and arrogance,
01:27:41confidence is an earned self-esteem or self-regard.
01:27:46Like you're confident because if someone asks you a question
01:27:50or asks you to put this to the test,
01:27:52you're confident because you could perform it
01:27:56and demonstrate your ability or capacity.
01:27:59Arrogance is just saying shit.
01:28:01It's saying I'm good at something
01:28:02but not actually backing it up.
01:28:04But the problem with a narcissist is
01:28:07they believe they're great at things that they can't back up.
01:28:09So it's very convincing
01:28:11'cause they're not actually second-guessing themselves
01:28:13when they're trying to sell you something.
01:28:15They're sincerely believing they're good at something
01:28:17that they could be terrible at.
01:28:19The sales pitch is authentic, you know?
01:28:24- I'm wondering how many,
01:28:28actually, that's a good question.
01:28:30Of the people that we're talking about,
01:28:34of these cluster B people,
01:28:36what are the things that they would almost never do?
01:28:42Because you've mentioned these personalities
01:28:48will behave in a manner that kind of breaks down defenses,
01:28:51that LARP's is a normal functioning human.
01:28:54And then after they've got investment
01:28:55and you're prepared to accommodate more,
01:28:57that's when the veil tends to get revealed.
01:29:00Or I guess in the version of narcissism,
01:29:03it's that they want you.
01:29:04They are trying to get you
01:29:06because you are everything to them.
01:29:07But once they've got you, perhaps you're disposed of.
01:29:10I'm wondering if there are any behaviors,
01:29:14you mentioned calm, sort of in control.
01:29:18I'm wondering if there are any behaviors
01:29:20that are very rare to see manifest in these people.
01:29:23Would ever seeing them be very, very loud
01:29:27and out of control, is that a rare thing?
01:29:30Are they rarely funny?
01:29:31Are they rarely, what are the potential behaviors
01:29:35that if somebody does do it,
01:29:38that would be a suggestion that they're not,
01:29:39or that is much rarer to see?
01:29:42That they're not what?
01:29:44- In this cluster B?
01:29:46- Oh, like ways to determine
01:29:48if somebody wouldn't fit the criteria?
01:29:51- Yeah, based on something that they do do.
01:29:54I'm aware that this is difficult
01:29:55because the LARPing as a human thing
01:29:58means that all of that can be performed.
01:30:00But I just wondered if there was something
01:30:01that these people typically don't have access to,
01:30:03even in performance?
01:30:05- Yeah, that's really, that's a great question.
01:30:08And that, I mean, that's certainly a relevant question
01:30:11across the board because personal relationships,
01:30:15but even clinical practice, I was thinking,
01:30:16it's important to know these things.
01:30:18I'll tell you this, there's something called,
01:30:23there are, and I'm not gonna go into detail on this,
01:30:26so just kind of introduce the topic
01:30:28and then people can research it,
01:30:29but neurological soft signs are these psychomotor,
01:30:34sort of like behaviors, tendencies
01:30:36that are operating in the body.
01:30:38Some people who have a disorder like this,
01:30:41you can actually tell by that some mannerisms
01:30:44and ways in which their system is operating
01:30:48from just a neurological perspective,
01:30:49where there's signs that you can see
01:30:51in their psychomotor behavior.
01:30:54How they would respond and make eye contact
01:30:58after a particular type of question,
01:31:00their body, their face, their eyes.
01:31:02I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, almost woo woo,
01:31:04but there's certain things that can show you
01:31:09how they're processing or perceiving information.
01:31:12This would require a lot of study and skill,
01:31:14but it is a thing that there are these sort of signs,
01:31:19if you will, not across the board, but there's that.
01:31:24Something they wouldn't do often
01:31:27is collaborate or take accountability.
01:31:31- Even performatively, rarely.
01:31:34- Yeah, I mean, they don't really have the capacity
01:31:37to do it all the time, even in a feigned way,
01:31:41where they're constantly in character.
01:31:43I mean, it'll slip eventually.
01:31:45There'll be a contradiction or an inconsistency.
01:31:47Because they lack the function
01:31:51to use a thought properly, long-term,
01:31:55to say, oh, this is probably a time
01:31:57where I should be agreeable.
01:31:59They lack that function.
01:32:01They can do it temporarily, but they can't maintain it.
01:32:07Permanently.
01:32:08- Is it possible for someone
01:32:11to sort of genuinely be in emotional pain
01:32:14and still choose to hurt others?
01:32:16I guess hurt people hurt people is the meme,
01:32:21but is that something that actually can happen?
01:32:23- Can people who are in a state of feeling profoundly hurt
01:32:27react by hurting others?
01:32:29- Yes. - Yes.
01:32:30- But, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:32:31- Totally.
01:32:32It's just not the causative factor of personality disorders.
01:32:36- Yep, yep, yep.
01:32:38'Cause I think, I'm thinking about the lineage between...
01:32:41So actually, that's another point
01:32:45that we probably didn't get on.
01:32:46The environmental catalyst
01:32:50for potentially the raw material
01:32:54of someone's genetic predisposition.
01:32:57Let's say that you were going to maximize the expression
01:33:03of someone's potential cluster B personality disorder.
01:33:08What would you do to a child
01:33:12in order to cause that to happen?
01:33:13What would be the sort of environment
01:33:15that that child would grow up in?
01:33:16- That's a great question.
01:33:19So what would be the environment
01:33:22to ideally produce a cluster B?
01:33:25- Yes, let's say, as we've identified earlier on,
01:33:28the raw materials need to be there in some form or another.
01:33:30Let's say you've got a good raw material child
01:33:35and you're gonna try and maximize the expression of that
01:33:40through childhood into adulthood
01:33:41so that it's the most cluster B person
01:33:44that we can get out of these raw materials.
01:33:46What would you do to that person
01:33:47in early childhood, adulthood, everything?
01:33:50- Yeah, it depends on the disorder,
01:33:53but it's such a great question,
01:33:54such a great thought experiment.
01:33:55If it were a narcissist,
01:33:57you would challenge their superiority and their grandiosity
01:34:01every time, so you would enforce boundaries,
01:34:04you'd tell them people are equal,
01:34:06you would nurture them with kindness and love
01:34:09when they felt misunderstood.
01:34:10Those things would actually exacerbate their narcissism
01:34:12if they have the trait profile that's startup for narcissism.
01:34:17So you would challenge their superiority,
01:34:19you would try to convince them people are equal,
01:34:21and then you would nurture them with love and affection
01:34:24when they had tantrums.
01:34:26If it were a borderline personality,
01:34:30you would threaten that they could potentially be abandoned
01:34:35or you would invalidate them on a chronic basis.
01:34:42If they already had the biological underpinnings
01:34:44to perceive abandonment and slights that don't exist,
01:34:49you would actually increase that fear
01:34:53by trying to abandon them, or pretending to abandon them,
01:34:58or threatening that you're going to leave them,
01:35:01'cause that's the mechanism that terrifies them.
01:35:04If it were a histrionic personality,
01:35:07you would deprive them of attention.
01:35:09And if it were an antisocial or a psychopath,
01:35:16there's not really anything, I mean,
01:35:19you could disagree with them, you could put up a boundary,
01:35:24I don't know, it's kinda hard.
01:35:29There's nothing really that you could do
01:35:31in the sense that, I doubt any of those things would be,
01:35:35not doing those things would be preventative, right?
01:35:39Because we're still talking about significant heritability
01:35:43and just the way these traits operate
01:35:47if they're intrinsic, you're gonna have those tendencies
01:35:52or behaviors no matter what.
01:35:54I mean, there are certainly ways to exacerbate it.
01:35:56- Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:35:58I often think about, one of my favorite question framings
01:36:02on the show is sort of what do most people
01:36:03get wrong about X?
01:36:05Or if you were like, for instance, instead of saying,
01:36:07how do I get the best night's sleep?
01:36:11It's, let's say that you were in charge of me for 24 hours,
01:36:14what would you do to ensure that I got the worst night's sleep
01:36:17and I think that framing is really interesting.
01:36:20It's a nice inversion and what it usually gets at
01:36:24is the important Pareto big movers in any case,
01:36:28which is what the first question, like I have a child
01:36:31and I don't want them to become a psychopath,
01:36:33what should I do?
01:36:34That's kind of a messy, but I want my child
01:36:38to become a psychopath, for some reason,
01:36:40it just seems to be a little bit easier to access.
01:36:43- You're absolutely right.
01:36:44Actually, now I have better answers for it as you explained
01:36:47it to me now, I would say, if you want your child
01:36:50to become a psychopath, you challenge their authority.
01:36:52You challenge pretty much anything they want to do
01:36:58that feels good for them to do.
01:37:01They don't like being told about anything related to limits.
01:37:07- Yeah.
01:37:12- Okay, histrionic, that's like hysteria, loud, dramatic?
01:37:17- That's the word that it's derived from
01:37:23and essentially like hysterical, but yeah,
01:37:27they are the typical highly, highly, highly attention seeking
01:37:32to a point where they're like ruthlessly extort attention.
01:37:39So it's not just, I want to be seen,
01:37:41it's if it's your birthday and you're getting the attention,
01:37:45I'm going to find a way to make your birthday about me.
01:37:47So, and actually what they're lacking is shame.
01:37:53They don't have enough shame.
01:37:56They do things in public and say things
01:37:58that most people would be humiliated to do or say.
01:38:01They actually do them because their end goal
01:38:03is getting the attention, it doesn't matter
01:38:05if it's negative or positive.
01:38:07So they can behave very shamefully
01:38:11in order to get the attention, that's the goal.
01:38:14- What's the percentage of the population
01:38:18that's got something that would fall in the disordered,
01:38:21beyond the disordered threshold for these traits?
01:38:25- I would say in the general population
01:38:29based on most recent numbers and trainings
01:38:36that I've attended related to this prevalence estimates
01:38:38and stuff like 15 to 19% of the population.
01:38:43- So one in five, nearly one in five,
01:38:45one in five, one in six.
01:38:46Does it skew, is there a sex difference here?
01:38:50- Not significant.
01:38:54- No more male psychopaths, no more female narcissists?
01:38:59- In certain population samples,
01:39:03but I would say most of the time,
01:39:05I would say in the general population,
01:39:07it's probably not too outrageous
01:39:12to say that it's almost even, it's almost half.
01:39:16- What about when you drill down
01:39:20into a few other populations?
01:39:22- That's why I'm kind of hesitant
01:39:23'cause if we look at borderline personality,
01:39:26which is a cluster B personality,
01:39:27the prevalence estimates are gender prevalence is 54 and 46
01:39:35with it being more predominantly female.
01:39:37Histrionic is depending on who you ask,
01:39:41but the prevalence estimates that I recently received
01:39:46are like 50/50 in male and female for histrionic.
01:39:49- Interesting, again, derived from hysteria
01:39:54and wasn't female hysteria a diagnosis for a long time?
01:39:59And just as many guys waving the flag.
01:40:05- But what must be interesting
01:40:06is the way that a male histrionic--
01:40:10- Demonstrates their drama.
01:40:11- Yes, yes, yes.
01:40:13- Yeah, it could look different.
01:40:14So you could then say it's a completely different thing.
01:40:16- That's an interesting question.
01:40:18So what are the biggest sex differences
01:40:23in the ways that the same pathology,
01:40:28that the same disorder shows up in the sexes?
01:40:33Female narcissists X and male narcissists Y
01:40:35and female psychopath.
01:40:38What are the ways that they diverge the most?
01:40:41- I'll be honest.
01:40:42I think that there's less sex differences in the traits
01:40:45than there are gender differences.
01:40:48And so I think it's more socially and culturally different.
01:40:52So somebody might use a gender stereotype who has,
01:40:57somebody who has one of these disorders
01:40:59might use a gender stereotype to make it more believable,
01:41:04to conceal their manipulation more.
01:41:06So they might operate within the constraints
01:41:08of a particular stereotypical gender.
01:41:10But I think the traits themselves are sex neutral.
01:41:13I think a callous female is similar to a callous male
01:41:20in the sense that they don't feel the slightest bit of,
01:41:25the slightest bit unnerved
01:41:26when other people are experiencing pain.
01:41:29- Surely the capacity of the female for social manipulation,
01:41:34like if you control for psychopathy
01:41:38or if you control for narcissism,
01:41:40the female is going to have better interpersonal skills
01:41:44on average.
01:41:45The female is going to be more conscientious on average.
01:41:47The female is going to be a better liar detector on average.
01:41:49The male is gonna have more body strength,
01:41:51body mass on average.
01:41:52So they're potentially going to be able
01:41:54to use their physical size.
01:41:55So there have to be some,
01:41:58just the tools that are at the disposal
01:42:00of the man and woman are going to differ.
01:42:02- Yeah, they differ.
01:42:03And I mean, the research that I've explored
01:42:06and kind of stumbled upon shows that what they'll do is,
01:42:15they will study the best case scenario.
01:42:18Like, is it in my best interest
01:42:20to be this stereotypically vulnerable because I am a female?
01:42:26Is it in my best interest to be this stereotypically
01:42:31like formidable and to call--
01:42:33- Right, it's all a meta game of where am I
01:42:36and where did they think I am and how--
01:42:38- Yeah, there's so many steps that they take to be ahead.
01:42:43I don't think they're effortful steps.
01:42:45I think a lot of times they're effortless.
01:42:47They come naturally to them.
01:42:49But they do put in a lot of effort
01:42:50to create an impression that's not accurate
01:42:55and all in the hopes that you succumb to it
01:42:58and then they can get what they want from you.
01:43:00And again, we're not talking about good and evil.
01:43:03A lot of people would say that's evil.
01:43:05From an evolutionary perspective,
01:43:08it's like there's an absence of collaboration
01:43:11and cooperation in these individuals.
01:43:13I would just say, be advised to know they exist
01:43:17and stay away from them if you can
01:43:18and escape them if you find out.
01:43:20But I wouldn't try to ruminate over this
01:43:24any sort of a moral argument.
01:43:26You know, then you're gonna just be lost.
01:43:30- Peter, you're fucking awesome, dude.
01:43:35Like this is so, I think this is so interesting.
01:43:39I want to do another episode
01:43:40and I want to do another episode all dedicated
01:43:43on the recipient side.
01:43:44How people can sort of detect, evade, recover, recuperate.
01:43:49I think that would be awesome.
01:43:50But this is, I mean, I've seen these videos, your videos,
01:43:54you crush it online.
01:43:55I've seen this stuff pop up
01:43:57and I can see why people are pretty fascinated.
01:43:59It's kind of, it's sort of a bit like studying an alien,
01:44:04but it's your own species in a way.
01:44:07- Yeah.
01:44:10- I imagine this must be pretty compelling work for you.
01:44:12- It's compelling.
01:44:13I actually have a quote, it's interesting you mentioned that.
01:44:17There's a quote in one of my books about like,
01:44:21when you really look at how different these people operate
01:44:25and you accept it, like if you let yourself accept it,
01:44:29which is kind of hard to do,
01:44:30it almost feels like you're talking about a different species
01:44:34because everything that we've decided collectively
01:44:37is beneficial for our, for humans.
01:44:41They don't think that way.
01:44:45So it's bizarre.
01:44:46I'm not saying they're not human.
01:44:48I'm just saying it's an interesting social experiment.
01:44:52- Dude, let's bring this one into land.
01:44:55I feel like I could talk to you for the rest of the day.
01:44:59So let's cut this one off now
01:45:00and we can run it back again in future.
01:45:02Where should people go to check out everything you do?
01:45:04- Yeah, I'm on Instagram @drpetersalerno.
01:45:08I have a YouTube channel.
01:45:09I have some books on Amazon.
01:45:10I have a website, drpetersalerno.com.
01:45:13- Dude, you're awesome.
01:45:16I appreciate you very much.
01:45:17- Thank you, I appreciate your time.
01:45:19Thank you.
01:45:19- This was fun.
01:45:20Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:45:23Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:45:25by the internet just yet.
01:45:27Here's another one that you should watch.
01:45:30Go on.