How Narcissists Hijack Your Brain - Dr Peter Salerno

English
CChris Williamson
Mental HealthAdult EducationMarriage

Transcript

00:00:00- How do you describe what you do?
00:00:01Someone hasn't met you before,
00:00:03they don't know much about you,
00:00:04you're at a cocktail party.
00:00:06How do you describe what you do?
00:00:07- I mean, my work focuses on,
00:00:09I mean, I'm a psychotherapist.
00:00:11That's kind of like my trade.
00:00:12I'm licensed as a psychotherapist.
00:00:14I have a doctorate in psychology.
00:00:16So my background is in psychology and mental health.
00:00:19I would say what I do specifically
00:00:21is I do extensive research on the etiology
00:00:25or cause of personality disorders.
00:00:28Like that's the type of diagnosis
00:00:31that I specialize in assessing, understanding.
00:00:34But one of the reasons I do it
00:00:35is actually not necessarily to treat personality disorders.
00:00:40I do it so that I help people understand
00:00:42in relationships where there's a personality disorder,
00:00:49there's often toxicity and conflict and strife and abuse.
00:00:56And so what I do is I help people restore their,
00:01:01what I would call their reality confidence
00:01:03following a toxic relationship.
00:01:05Because in these relationships what happens
00:01:07is the individual who is the victim
00:01:09of somebody who is intentionally manipulative,
00:01:12deceptive, controlling.
00:01:15What happens is the victim loses their sense
00:01:19of what's actually true and real
00:01:22and what's actually being manipulated.
00:01:26Okay, and so I help people following these types
00:01:29of high conflict or problematic abusive relationships
00:01:34kind of get their reality confidence back.
00:01:38And one of the ways I do that is by resolving
00:01:40what I call traumatic cognitive dissonance,
00:01:44which is what happens to the brain
00:01:45when you're forced to hold two contradictory realities
00:01:50at the same time because someone is trying to convince you
00:01:52that two things could be true at the same time
00:01:54and they can't be.
00:01:56And so when I'm consulting with people professionally,
00:02:01I'm helping them regain their understanding
00:02:04of what's actually real, what happened to them,
00:02:07and what they were convinced happened to them
00:02:09because it was convenient for somebody else
00:02:12if they believed that.
00:02:13- So it's almost like people that have spent
00:02:17a good bit of time intimately close to these other people,
00:02:23their reality gets warped around them to the point
00:02:27where it's difficult for them to reenter normal reality
00:02:30without the old version creeping back in.
00:02:35- Correct, yeah.
00:02:37Yeah, and one of the reasons for that
00:02:38is because the individual who is the manipulative person
00:02:41has done such an exceptional job
00:02:43of making a lot of the deception and the evidence invisible.
00:02:48So it's not like there's somebody overtly trying
00:02:52to manipulate you and you're aware of it.
00:02:55It's not like there's somebody saying,
00:02:56"Hey, I want you to buy this product for me.
00:02:59"Here's why I think it'll improve your life."
00:03:01And then they pressure you.
00:03:02It's actually more like,
00:03:03"No, I'm not actually up to anything."
00:03:06You're free to come and go as you please in this arrangement
00:03:10all while underneath the surface,
00:03:12covertly trying to gain an advantage over this person
00:03:15for selfish reasons, exploitative reasons.
00:03:18And so even if the relationship has ended,
00:03:21they still might perceive the relationship
00:03:23even years or decades later in a way that's not accurate
00:03:27because their reality was distorted.
00:03:29- What are the personality type?
00:03:34What are the sorts of people,
00:03:36the kinds of psychological profiles?
00:03:39What are we talking about here?
00:03:41How does that show up in behavior?
00:03:43- Yeah, so I mean, I would say the personality disorders,
00:03:47and I'm just the messenger here, okay?
00:03:50But the personality disorders that we most often associate
00:03:53with interpersonal conflict, abuse, harm,
00:03:57are what we call the cluster B personality disorders.
00:04:00And so the reason why we cluster them together
00:04:03is because they have a lot of overlapping features.
00:04:06So it's not really accurate to say that it's convenient,
00:04:11but it's not fully accurate to say
00:04:13that somebody just fits into one concrete category
00:04:17of disorder and we can just label them as such
00:04:20and then there's nothing else going on.
00:04:22Usually what's happening is there's quite a few traits
00:04:24or features of multiple personality disorders
00:04:28that are overlapping in one individual.
00:04:30And so it makes it even harder to really pinpoint
00:04:33what really is this person all about.
00:04:34But I would say that the pathological traits,
00:04:40the personality traits that we find common
00:04:43in the cluster B classification of disorders
00:04:47are the ones that you're gonna find
00:04:49causing the most interpersonal trouble
00:04:52and conflict in relationships.
00:04:54- What would they, what are they named?
00:04:57- So we have, one of the main ones
00:05:00that's sort of like an umbrella term
00:05:01is what we refer to as antagonism.
00:05:04Antagonism is a personality trait
00:05:06where people are oftentimes intentionally putting themselves
00:05:11at odds with another person,
00:05:12or they're putting two other people at odds with one another,
00:05:16literally to create drama, to create conflict,
00:05:19to escalate problems rather than solve them.
00:05:22So an example of antagonism is something
00:05:26that we refer to as like triangulation.
00:05:31So one person is intentionally gonna tell another person
00:05:34something about someone else to create a rift
00:05:38and then they're gonna deny that they did that.
00:05:41And so now the two people that didn't even speak
00:05:43could be having thoughts and perceptions about each other
00:05:45based on this other person
00:05:47that could be completely a fabrication,
00:05:49it could just be a lie.
00:05:50And now those two people are at odds with one another
00:05:52and they haven't even communicated necessarily.
00:05:54It's just this other person is deciding
00:05:57I'm gonna create a rift in here
00:05:59because it might benefit them for those two people
00:06:01to not get along.
00:06:02And so they're gonna strategically create a problem
00:06:06in that dynamic and then deny it every habit.
00:06:09- I didn't even know antagonism was a personality trait
00:06:14or a potential personality type.
00:06:16I don't know, I mean, I've thought about somebody
00:06:21that is antagonistic.
00:06:23You know that, but I didn't realize
00:06:25that it would be something more definable,
00:06:28something that had its own little bucket.
00:06:32- Yeah, and that's actually a big bucket
00:06:33because what's underneath antagonism
00:06:36is things like grandiosity, which we see in narcissism.
00:06:41I'm sure you're familiar with that term.
00:06:43It's a big popular term.
00:06:44Most people who get accused of being narcissistic,
00:06:48what they're actually being accused of is antagonism.
00:06:53They're being accused of,
00:06:56the problematic aspect of narcissism in a relationship
00:06:59is somebody's grandiosity.
00:07:01So their entitlement, their arrogance,
00:07:03their inability to see other people as an equal.
00:07:06Well, the only way you can be in a relationship
00:07:08as a narcissist and to maintain that position
00:07:12is if you antagonize people
00:07:14because you need to put people at odds with you.
00:07:17They need to be beneath you.
00:07:18They need to be aware that there's a hierarchy
00:07:20in the relationship that you are,
00:07:22whatever the case may be, smarter, better.
00:07:24They need to be above.
00:07:27There's no such thing as equality in a relationship
00:07:29where one person is truly narcissistic.
00:07:32So yeah, so antagonism is actually the big bowl
00:07:36that a lot of the other traits that we often hear about,
00:07:40they actually are falling under the category of antagonism.
00:07:44- What else is in the cluster?
00:07:46- We have hostility.
00:07:49So people that have kind of tend to hold
00:07:52like a contempt or a spite towards others
00:07:55to where they're not actually collaborating
00:07:57to make relationships better.
00:07:58They're resentful of the person.
00:08:00They might envy the person.
00:08:02They might be jealous of the person.
00:08:03So they're hostile towards them.
00:08:05And it's, again, this isn't always being admitted to.
00:08:09They could be smiling and winning favor
00:08:12and ingratiating and being kind to the person,
00:08:15all while sabotaging something covertly
00:08:18through their, because as a result of their hostility.
00:08:21So they might be deceptive.
00:08:22That's another feature of antagonism is deceit.
00:08:24Obviously manipulation.
00:08:27Failure to fulfill obligations.
00:08:31All of these things that we see
00:08:33and if they're consistent chronic behaviors,
00:08:37we're really dealing with an antagonistic person.
00:08:39- Well, I suppose all of us have done some of this,
00:08:42some of the time. - Oh yeah.
00:08:44So when we talk about personality disorders,
00:08:47what we're really talking about is this trait.
00:08:51So we'll just use antagonism
00:08:52'cause we're talking about antagonism.
00:08:54Is somebody antagonistic in like one or two specific contexts?
00:08:59So do they tend to become antagonistic
00:09:02when they're only talking to their mother
00:09:05and they're an adult, right?
00:09:06But no matter how much time goes by,
00:09:08if they go home to the house that they grew up in,
00:09:11they start being antagonistic.
00:09:12Are we talking about that?
00:09:13'Cause that's kind of a normal thing
00:09:14that we could see in humans.
00:09:16Or is this person all day, every day,
00:09:20plotting to put people at odds with one another
00:09:22because it benefits them in some way
00:09:24for people to navigate along.
00:09:26They seem to be the common denominator
00:09:29of helping everybody pick up the pieces back together.
00:09:31So there could be some motivating factor
00:09:35of why the person operates in an antagonistic fashion
00:09:38all day, every day.
00:09:39We would say that that's more related
00:09:41to abnormal or maladaptive personality.
00:09:46But if you're antagonistic once in a while
00:09:49with a particular person because you have a history,
00:09:53that's just being human, right?
00:09:54What we're looking for is how much is this pattern
00:09:57interfering with the life of the individual
00:10:00and the lives of other people?
00:10:03So there's a distinction there, yeah.
00:10:06- What's the root of this?
00:10:07What are the root of much of the cluster B disorders?
00:10:10- Good question.
00:10:11This is an excellent question.
00:10:12So one of the things that is gonna put my answer
00:10:16or set my answer apart is most of the people
00:10:20you've probably seen speak about this topic,
00:10:22personality disorders or narcissism,
00:10:24they're gonna give you a different answer
00:10:27than I would give you based on what causes it, okay?
00:10:31Most people have this idea or have adopted the idea
00:10:36that what causes it is actually childhood adversity
00:10:41or some sort of abuse or situation
00:10:45where the person learns to be this way.
00:10:48- Hurt people hurt people.
00:10:50- Precisely, yeah.
00:10:51I mean, that's the most common answer you'll get.
00:10:54I would fundamentally disagree with that
00:10:57because there's a lot of new research that has come out
00:11:02within the last 20 years even that suggests
00:11:05that a lot of the traits that we use
00:11:09to describe the central features of something
00:11:11like a narcissism are actually just as much,
00:11:15if not more related to the way somebody
00:11:17is just intrinsically built rather than the things
00:11:20that happen to them.
00:11:21So we're gonna go into like the,
00:11:24there's no such thing as a nature-nurture debate
00:11:26because it's always nature and nurture.
00:11:28So there's no such thing as talking about one
00:11:30without the other, but what I've noticed
00:11:33in clinical research and clinical practice
00:11:36and then just in my field in general
00:11:37is there is a lack of awareness among professionals
00:11:42of how much DNA and biology contribute
00:11:45to narcissistic traits and features across the lifespan
00:11:49in an individual regardless of what has happened to them
00:11:52in early life and childhood.
00:11:53So what I mean by that is there is evidence
00:11:56to demonstrate that people can be highly narcissistic
00:12:01or have a personality disorder that's more severe
00:12:04than we'll say mild or moderate
00:12:07and they could actually develop that disorder
00:12:09without any adversity or trauma or incidents
00:12:14of being hurt in their personal life.
00:12:18So we can no longer attribute this type of behavior
00:12:21solely to what happened to somebody
00:12:24in their early formative years.
00:12:27- I had Catherine Paige Harden on the show yesterday,
00:12:30familiar with her? - Mm-hmm.
00:12:32- Yeah, wrote the genetic lottery
00:12:33and her new book is "Original Sin"
00:12:35and it's all about how people's behavior
00:12:39is influenced by the genes, especially maladaptive,
00:12:43antisocial behavior, robbing, stealing, lying, abuse.
00:12:47And so yeah, you're in good company.
00:12:50This week apparently it's just all about
00:12:52bad personality traits and how much genes.
00:12:54- So an interesting question there is,
00:12:57if you're saying trauma doesn't necessarily cause people
00:13:02to become abusers, that you can have a child
00:13:04who goes through a horrendous childhood
00:13:06and doesn't grow up to become a narcissist
00:13:08or an antagonist or whatever.
00:13:10And you can also have a childhood which doesn't have abuse
00:13:16and the child does grow up to become an adult
00:13:17or even in childhood is presumably
00:13:19you get narcissistic children as well.
00:13:22How often do you see somebody that becomes,
00:13:25let's just say a narcissist or antagonist
00:13:28that doesn't have it in their family history
00:13:33where you have been able to separate out
00:13:35some of the heritability component of this?
00:13:37How many people can environment themselves
00:13:40into a cluster B disorder?
00:13:42- Yeah, that's such a great question.
00:13:44I would say historically in the mental health field,
00:13:49the answer to that question would be
00:13:51as many people as possible.
00:13:53Because they're operating from this theoretical lens
00:13:56that these are created, these are designed disorders.
00:14:00They're not built into anybody.
00:14:02They're strictly environmental.
00:14:04So that presents a problem if they're strictly environmental
00:14:07to my perspective.
00:14:10'Cause what it's saying is that
00:14:13under the right circumstances, you can make a narcissist.
00:14:18So to answer your question, maybe I'm,
00:14:23correct me if I'm not answering your question.
00:14:26I would say, I'm not gonna say something's not possible.
00:14:29So do I think it's possible that somebody
00:14:32based on experience alone could develop
00:14:35what we would typically refer to as like
00:14:38narcissistic personality disorder?
00:14:40Could they meet that criteria at some point in their life?
00:14:43Yeah, sure.
00:14:45I would caution to say though that
00:14:48what we're really seeing now though is
00:14:50they need enough of the startup material of narcissism
00:14:55in order for it to really manifest
00:14:57into like a pervasive disorder.
00:14:59Meaning there has to be some biological
00:15:01and genetic underpinnings that set up
00:15:04the trait profile for that type of--
00:15:06- They need the raw materials.
00:15:07- Yeah, I'd say so.
00:15:09I don't think you could just create it
00:15:10from the ground up in anybody.
00:15:13- So do you often see it in mom or dad or grandparents?
00:15:18Have you ever looked at this?
00:15:19Has anyone done a study?
00:15:21- Yeah, so they're actually,
00:15:23what gives us the most information
00:15:24on how genetic something is
00:15:26versus how environmental is twin studies.
00:15:29Twins, it's a natural experiment.
00:15:31You take two identical twins that have been raised apart
00:15:34so they don't even know the other exists
00:15:36and they know nothing about their environment.
00:15:38You study them later in life
00:15:41or at intervals of life.
00:15:44How similar are they
00:15:45if they come from completely different upbringings,
00:15:48completely different socioeconomic status,
00:15:50completely different countries?
00:15:52How similar are they in personality
00:15:54if they didn't know the other exists
00:15:55but they share 100% of their DNA?
00:15:58So those are the kind of cool natural experiments
00:16:00we can do on identical twins
00:16:02to see how much of the environmental influence is there
00:16:05versus how concordant are their traits
00:16:08even if they live the park or just share similar DNA.
00:16:12What we found in some pretty landmark meta-analyses
00:16:15and landmark studies is across the board
00:16:19when it comes to psychological traits,
00:16:2150 plus years of twin research
00:16:25covering millions and millions of different twins
00:16:29and covering, I don't know how many traits there are
00:16:34but maybe 20,000 psychological traits
00:16:37that are possible.
00:16:39We're finding that all psychological traits
00:16:41including personality traits
00:16:42show measurable average heritability of about 50%.
00:16:49So that's just with startup material alone,
00:16:55all psychological traits show about 50% average heritability.
00:17:02And what we've seen with personality disorders
00:17:05is that those percentages actually increased
00:17:08when we're talking about pathological personality traits.
00:17:12So it exceeds 50%, that's pretty significant.
00:17:16- Well, it's on average, pretty much everything is 50%
00:17:21but when you're talking about such an extreme outlier
00:17:25what sounds like very antisocial kind of maladaptive
00:17:28at least at the group level
00:17:29although it may be slightly adaptive at the individual level,
00:17:32you would have hoped that our genes
00:17:35might've been able to regress back to the mean
00:17:38a little bit more effectively to try and push this thing out.
00:17:42So have you thought about this through an evolutionary lens?
00:17:46Have you thought about how cluster B personality traits
00:17:50might be adaptive?
00:17:51What sort of benefits they would afford our ancestors
00:17:55and what sort of benefits the people who have them
00:17:57receive now?
00:17:58Because if they have stayed in the gene pool
00:18:02for a couple of hundred thousand years
00:18:04we have to assume that they're there for a reason.
00:18:05So what sort of benefits do these people see?
00:18:10- Yeah, so essentially why did these mechanisms evolve
00:18:14and why are they still around?
00:18:15- Bingo. - Okay.
00:18:17So the first question that we just talked about
00:18:21with heritability, we were asking essentially
00:18:23why do individuals differ?
00:18:24Why would some person have more narcissism than the other?
00:18:27Now you're asking maybe not an even better question
00:18:30but just as important as a question.
00:18:33Why the mechanisms in the first place?
00:18:35Like did they serve some useful purpose or even non-useful?
00:18:40Evolutionary psychologists, I don't wanna speak
00:18:44for all of them but some of them would say
00:18:47this is just due to random variation.
00:18:50Like these traits exist in the human DNA
00:18:53and they're gonna reemerge in future generations
00:18:57even if we try to wipe them out.
00:18:58Just like cooperation would reemerge
00:19:00if we tried to wipe out all the cooperative people.
00:19:04So part of it is random variation.
00:19:06I think it's just the nature of human DNA.
00:19:09We have these traits that exist.
00:19:11I think that these traits do serve certain purposes
00:19:13and certain contexts that are useful for immediate reward
00:19:18or immediate gratification or even solving
00:19:22a very particular problem that requires,
00:19:27could potentially require even impulse.
00:19:29We need like a spontaneous, impulsive, quick decision here.
00:19:32So we wanna look at the utility in these traits too.
00:19:38They're not all bad and I wouldn't even go so far
00:19:40as to say this is an issue about related to good or evil.
00:19:45I think these traits even in smaller doses
00:19:47could be extremely useful and so they exist for that purpose.
00:19:52When they get to the point where they're on the extreme end
00:19:55of the quantitative dimension, meaning somebody is existing
00:19:59in life and in relationships hostile to the point
00:20:02where it's problematic, that's when we would say,
00:20:05well, whatever purpose it served, this isn't the purpose.
00:20:10But we could even say that for positive traits
00:20:12like agreeableness, for example.
00:20:16You could be too agreeable.
00:20:17Then if you're pathologically agreeable,
00:20:19then it might be useful to be a bit more disagreeable
00:20:25in day-to-day life, right?
00:20:27So to answer your question, they exist 'cause they exist.
00:20:30They evolve for randomness and also some useful purposes
00:20:35in extreme levels that are just harmful.
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00:21:54What about the neurobiology of this stuff?
00:21:56What parts of the brain are involved in empathy
00:22:00and self-control and have we looked at the brains of the--
00:22:05Is it dopamine overload?
00:22:07Is it that the amygdala is firing too much?
00:22:10What's going on?
00:22:11- This is something that I think is extremely important
00:22:14to bring to this conversation because I think oftentimes,
00:22:18psychology stops at social
00:22:23and caregiving contributions, right?
00:22:27Like the original environment and things like that,
00:22:30but there are so many other systems involved
00:22:33in creating a personality or creating a trait,
00:22:36and you mentioned some of them.
00:22:37So we're talking about hormonal systems,
00:22:42the endocrine system, the nervous system,
00:22:46and then all of the brain networks that are communicating.
00:22:50I don't really like to say that this is like,
00:22:53there's such a thing as like a narcissistic brain
00:22:55where there's certain regions that look a certain way,
00:22:58and so that's a narcissistic brain.
00:22:59That's a little too naive, I would say,
00:23:06but are there regions or areas in the brain
00:23:08that are indicative of things like a lack of empathy?
00:23:12Sure, like absolutely.
00:23:13We see that in certain brains.
00:23:15We see that in brain imaging.
00:23:17We also see structural and functional differences
00:23:19in brains pre and post therapy
00:23:22in individuals with personality disorders.
00:23:24They've done studies on child brains,
00:23:27like they scan them prior to treatment
00:23:29and then scan them following treatment
00:23:31for tasks related to cognitive restructuring,
00:23:35mentalization-based treatment,
00:23:37and seeing that the function and structure of the brain
00:23:40does in fact change with certain interventions.
00:23:42- Okay, so this is not a complete lock-in.
00:23:45We can intervene.
00:23:47- In some cases, yeah, well in most,
00:23:49I would say in a lot of cases it's not,
00:23:51none of this is deterministic.
00:23:52It's probabilistic and it's more influential
00:23:56than it is like just set in stone.
00:23:58But there are cases, I just wanna be totally transparent,
00:24:04there are cases of individuals where there's not much hope
00:24:07for changing the operating system.
00:24:11- And what does that look like
00:24:12from a brain chemistry perspective?
00:24:14Like what differences in brain chemistry
00:24:16could make someone more prone to dominance or aggression
00:24:19or whatever? - Yeah, great question.
00:24:22So what we see, we see proactive
00:24:24or intentional forms of aggression
00:24:27in individuals who have like less activation
00:24:32when it comes to fear, learning, or consequences.
00:24:39So what I mean by that is some brains operate in a way
00:24:41where they don't learn from mistakes through fear.
00:24:46The fear doesn't register
00:24:48when they do something pretty horrific.
00:24:50So there's no motivation to stop doing the behavior
00:24:54when the fear doesn't kick in.
00:24:55There's also no arousal in the body
00:24:57or in systems that would normally say,
00:24:59okay, we need to be a bit hyper-vigilant here,
00:25:01we just did something, we don't like the way it feels.
00:25:03In some individuals, those things don't happen.
00:25:05So they don't learn from the mistakes,
00:25:08so therefore there's nothing in them registering
00:25:10to say we should stop doing this.
00:25:11What actually might be happening
00:25:12is it's making them feel better to do it, right?
00:25:15And it could be an antisocial behavior.
00:25:18So some people are wired in such a way
00:25:20where they're motivated to continue participating
00:25:23in what most people would consider a negative behavior,
00:25:27but their operating system is telling them to keep doing it
00:25:30because it produces a reward,
00:25:32or it's just there's nothing negative about it for them.
00:25:37- Paige yesterday said basically the exact same thing.
00:25:42And the funny thing about somebody
00:25:44who doesn't learn through punishment
00:25:46is that much of the time when you're a kid,
00:25:49if you are acting out, what happens is parents begin to,
00:25:53and teachers begin to ratchet a punishment
00:25:55more and more and more.
00:25:56What you don't realize is that
00:25:57that is simply the wrong pathway.
00:26:00It would be like somebody having
00:26:03a vitamin B methylation pathway deficiency
00:26:06and you just pushing more vitamin B into them,
00:26:09hoping that this simply does not get absorbed.
00:26:12And her angle was they will learn
00:26:16through reinforcement of praise,
00:26:18but not through reinforcement of punishment,
00:26:21which means that in your example here,
00:26:23it's almost like people are kind of blind
00:26:26to the slings and arrows of distaste from people.
00:26:31And they will just continue to work through
00:26:33until they find something that, oh, well, that worked.
00:26:36That seemed to get me closer
00:26:38to whatever my goal was for today.
00:26:40I'll keep doing that.
00:26:41No, you can't do that.
00:26:42You shouldn't do that.
00:26:43You've got time out.
00:26:44I'm taking your iPad.
00:26:45You're gonna sit on the naughty step.
00:26:47Made no difference.
00:26:49Try it again.
00:26:49Maybe in a different way.
00:26:51Ratchet it up a little bit more.
00:26:53The punishment comes back in.
00:26:54Again, no difference.
00:26:56Not learning from this, not learning from that.
00:26:57I'm just seeking missile for effectiveness
00:27:01without the sort of overlying social mores
00:27:06and the discomfort.
00:27:08For the people who've got (speaks in foreign language)
00:27:11staircase wit in French.
00:27:13That sense of, oh, fuck,
00:27:14I really wish that I'd said that thing
00:27:17as opposed to I just don't reflect on my behavior
00:27:21in that kind of a manner.
00:27:23That's exactly right.
00:27:24So what we see in the operating systems
00:27:26of the more severe to extreme personality disorders
00:27:31is we see a lack of capacity
00:27:36but also interest in collaboration.
00:27:39So imagine if you're starting point is
00:27:43I'm not interested in collaborating with people.
00:27:45That's how they,
00:27:50so there's a problem right there.
00:27:53There's a lack of collaborative capacity or interest.
00:27:55There's a lack of problem solving capacity or interest
00:27:58in these individuals.
00:27:59There's a lack of self-reflective capacity and interest
00:28:03and there's a lack of self-corrective capacity and interest.
00:28:08So we have to stop making the mistake
00:28:14of thinking that there is no variation between individuals,
00:28:19what motivates them.
00:28:20And interestingly enough too,
00:28:22with the severe personality disorders
00:28:25that create the interpersonal strife,
00:28:28more nurture and empathy for them
00:28:30actually makes them more exploitative.
00:28:33- Oh, hang on.
00:28:35So no, wait, wait a second.
00:28:37So you're telling me that a lot of these people
00:28:42are immune to punishment and encouraged by empathy.
00:28:47- Yes.
00:28:51Now we see this in,
00:28:58we actually see this in clinical practice
00:29:00which is interesting
00:29:01because when you work with individuals
00:29:04who have severe personality disorders,
00:29:07they actively put wrenches in the therapy process.
00:29:12They derail the process.
00:29:15- In what ways?
00:29:16- Well, they exploit your empathy
00:29:19and your unconditional positive regard for them
00:29:22and you believing their narrative.
00:29:23They exploit all that.
00:29:24So treating them and dealing with them
00:29:27in a clinical setting is one very telling of
00:29:30how they operate in their personal lives,
00:29:32where they're derailing and manipulating the narrative
00:29:35so that you guys don't reach a common ground.
00:29:37Seems like completely counterintuitive to most people,
00:29:40but that's what they're in fact doing.
00:29:42They're making it so that you can't reach
00:29:43a common ground with them.
00:29:44So there's that.
00:29:47- Sorry, just on that,
00:29:48they're trying to maintain control and distance.
00:29:52I'll give you what I think that you want from me,
00:29:57some sort of performative revelation
00:30:03or revealing a degree of titrated information
00:30:08that I've given you, but that's probably fake as well
00:30:12because I understand the dynamic.
00:30:14I understand what your reward function is.
00:30:17Oh, I've really got them to open up during this session
00:30:20and that allows the therapeutic relationship to keep going
00:30:25in a manner that it's supposed to,
00:30:29like within the rules of the game
00:30:31without actually having to play the game.
00:30:33- Correct.
00:30:34Well, yes.
00:30:35Well, seemingly, and most therapists,
00:30:38this goes over their head.
00:30:40So they're thinking that you're making great strides
00:30:44and you're progressing because you're feigning collaboration.
00:30:48- Have you ever,
00:30:49so I understand that you work
00:30:50with the victims of these people.
00:30:51Have you ever worked directly with the people themselves?
00:30:54- Yeah, I should clarify.
00:30:55I used to, I don't anymore, but I used to for a very-
00:30:58- Okay, you're a little bit like an ex undercover cop
00:31:01that's now turned into a proper detective or whatever.
00:31:05So tell me what it's like.
00:31:07Tell me what it's like to sit down
00:31:11opposite somebody who has 99th percentile,
00:31:16cluster B personality disorder.
00:31:18Just like, just describe that experience.
00:31:20- When we're talking about in a therapeutic context,
00:31:26something that's really important to mention
00:31:28is transference and counter-transference.
00:31:32So do you want me to go into that for your audience?
00:31:35- Yeah, give us a brief overview.
00:31:37I learned that, you know, interestingly,
00:31:38and I'm grinning because it's one of the few things
00:31:41that I've learned from reading chick novels.
00:31:43I read "The Silent Patient" by Alex Michelades,
00:31:46or Andrew Michelades, and in it,
00:31:48one of the main protagonists is a therapist
00:31:50who's trying to get this patient to speak.
00:31:52And he goes to his head therapist
00:31:55who's trying to help him get through
00:31:58this very difficult patient.
00:32:00And there's this line,
00:32:02"Tell me about the transference and counter-transference."
00:32:05And this was as I was starting to do therapy
00:32:07about two years ago.
00:32:08I went in all impressed with myself to tell my therapist
00:32:12that I learned what transference and counter-transference was,
00:32:14but I didn't learn about it from proper research.
00:32:16I learned about it from reading like an absolute,
00:32:19like USA Today best-selling chick thriller.
00:32:22But anyway, transference, counter-transference,
00:32:25you're sitting down with somebody with cluster B, et cetera.
00:32:28- Yeah, well, I mean, just in general,
00:32:31we all transfer and counter-transfer in life
00:32:33and human relationships.
00:32:34It's not just exclusive to therapy,
00:32:36but it's important to notice that it's happening in therapy
00:32:39because it gives you a lot of information
00:32:41as far as what's happening in the interaction.
00:32:44So, I mean, transference in the simplest terms
00:32:48is the feelings that are transferred
00:32:50onto the therapist by the patient.
00:32:52Counter-transference are some of the feelings
00:32:54or emotional reactions that take place
00:32:56inside of the therapist
00:32:57while they are interacting with the patient.
00:33:01So the reason why that's relevant
00:33:02is because we get to ask cool questions like,
00:33:05would I have been feeling this
00:33:07if I were sitting with anyone else right now?
00:33:08Or is this feeling that just got activated in me,
00:33:11is it directly related to the dynamic of this person
00:33:16that I'm interacting with?
00:33:17Because it starts to tell you information
00:33:19about how maybe other people are experiencing them
00:33:21outside of therapy in their personal life
00:33:24that maybe they're not super aware of.
00:33:27And they might actually, even a narcissist
00:33:29could genuinely come into a therapy office
00:33:31and not have a clue why everybody thinks
00:33:33they're so insensitive, right?
00:33:36All the while, the therapist is picking up
00:33:39on their insensitivity and having a counter-transference
00:33:41reaction to this insensitivity.
00:33:44Like gosh, it feels hard to sit in a room with this person.
00:33:46I feel incompetent.
00:33:47I feel scared.
00:33:49I feel different than I did before they showed up, right?
00:33:53So it's really important.
00:33:55But the typical counter-transference that results
00:33:59when you're sitting with somebody
00:34:02who meets the criteria for cluster B,
00:34:05I should say, yeah, typical or common counter-transference,
00:34:08or what the therapist feels in the room with them
00:34:10is you feel, I said a couple of them just now,
00:34:13oftentimes you just start to overwhelmingly feel incompetent.
00:34:17Like you don't know how to do your job
00:34:18or you're not qualified to do your job.
00:34:21And remember, this is just coming
00:34:22as you're sitting with someone.
00:34:24You weren't thinking about it earlier today
00:34:26on the drive to work.
00:34:27You were thinking, oh, I can't wait to go to work.
00:34:28I do a pretty good job.
00:34:30You know, I have a full practice.
00:34:31Then this person comes in and all of a sudden
00:34:33you feel like you can't do your job, right?
00:34:36So that's--
00:34:37- What is it, what is it, what are they doing?
00:34:38What is it--
00:34:39- They're devaluing you
00:34:40and not telling you that they're devaluing you.
00:34:44But you're starting to feel incompetent.
00:34:47So this is something that somebody
00:34:51with pretty severe personality pathology
00:34:53can sort of just put into the environment.
00:34:55They can export this out into the environment
00:34:58without saying a word.
00:34:59- Do you think they mean to?
00:35:00Is this an outcome that they want
00:35:03or is this a spandrel that's come along for the ride?
00:35:06So earlier you were asking
00:35:07about purpose evolutionary perspective.
00:35:11I would say this is an evolutionary perspective
00:35:14that would be important to look into.
00:35:16Can they put this spell into the environment,
00:35:19into the air for some sort of advantage for themselves
00:35:23that they might not even fully be aware of in the moment,
00:35:25but it's happening and it's starting to work for them.
00:35:28- It makes people want to compete.
00:35:31Allow me to show you just how competent I am.
00:35:33- No, no, no, no, I will over deliver.
00:35:36I will over, because there is this odd sense
00:35:39of interpersonal competition of one,
00:35:42but it's actually of none, right?
00:35:43It's just you, right?
00:35:44It's not a competition between you.
00:35:46It's that I need to prove myself
00:35:48because you don't seem impressed by me.
00:35:51Be impressed by me.
00:35:51Okay, I'll do a bit more.
00:35:53I'll do a bit more.
00:35:54I'll do a bit more.
00:35:54Beep, beep, finally.
00:35:55Please just recognize that I'm here.
00:35:57- Yeah, or if I can get the professional
00:36:01to tell me to feel incompetent,
00:36:04then I get to direct the treatment,
00:36:09which means maybe if they feel incompetent,
00:36:11they'll agree with me more.
00:36:13So see, I take them off their high horse of expertise.
00:36:18Now I get to kind of get what I want from them a little bit.
00:36:21Maybe I could pull the wool over their eyes.
00:36:24- Is there a bit more vulnerable?
00:36:25- This isn't exactly 100% conscious,
00:36:28but to me, I would still even,
00:36:30I would still refer to that tactic as intentional abuse
00:36:34because you're not showing up
00:36:36with the intention of playing fair,
00:36:39even in the conversation.
00:36:41- What else do you feel?
00:36:44- Fear and dread.
00:36:49And it's not always like 100% conscious of what you fear
00:36:57or what the dread is,
00:36:57but you can all of a sudden come up with this feeling.
00:37:00We also have a detection or a deception detection network
00:37:04in our brain, which gets hijacked by these types of tactics.
00:37:09You feel it and you stop thinking,
00:37:12if you get somebody who's good enough at manipulation,
00:37:15you could stop thinking, "Hmm, I'm feeling incompetent.
00:37:20"I wasn't before, now I am.
00:37:21"What's that about?"
00:37:22You might just think,
00:37:23"Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was."
00:37:25And that would be a really important thing
00:37:29for a victim of a narcissist to say to themselves.
00:37:32Maybe I'm not as good-- - Oh, of course,
00:37:33because that's dissolved their defenses
00:37:37around I'm not in the wrong, they're in the wrong.
00:37:40- Right, yeah.
00:37:42And this happens in milliseconds, by the way.
00:37:46This is all happening unconsciously
00:37:47when you're interacting with someone.
00:37:48So someone like me, I'm a few steps ahead,
00:37:53but not by any means immune.
00:37:56And I would never tell anybody,
00:37:58because even the foremost experts of this
00:38:00would never claim that they could never be sucker-punched.
00:38:05- Gazeed, finessed.
00:38:07- Yeah, but it's not really about
00:38:09becoming a human lie detector
00:38:10and knowing what everyone else is all about.
00:38:12That's not what you're trying to do.
00:38:13But you're trying to notice,
00:38:16when I'm with this particular person, I feel incompetent,
00:38:19I feel dread, I feel fear, I feel insecurity.
00:38:22And in most other relationships in my life,
00:38:24I don't operate that way.
00:38:26What's happening in this particular dynamic
00:38:29that's making me feel that way,
00:38:31that's kind of some things that a therapist
00:38:32would want to certainly be aware of
00:38:35if they're interacting with someone
00:38:37who potentially has a socially maladaptive personality.
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00:39:48How, you mentioned there about these people
00:39:51don't even mean to do it.
00:39:53Or it's happening in some forms unconsciously
00:39:56and in others.
00:39:57Of the population of cluster B personality,
00:40:02antisocial personality disorder people, patients,
00:40:07how many of them know what they're doing and mean to do it?
00:40:12And how many of them are at the mercy of their programming?
00:40:17And I suppose this is a difficult question
00:40:18because what we're talking about here is
00:40:21agency over empathy and ability to recognize
00:40:25and wish to do different.
00:40:26But unfortunately, the very personality trait
00:40:30that we're talking about
00:40:31curtails your ability to do the empathy thing.
00:40:33So it might be hard for someone to empathize
00:40:36with the damage of their lack of empathy
00:40:39and wish that they could do different.
00:40:40Would you understand the question here?
00:40:41How many people revel in what they're doing
00:40:43and how many people are fighting against it?
00:40:46- Yeah, that's a great question.
00:40:50So these are what we call egosyntonic disorders.
00:40:55What that means is they're comfortable in their own skin.
00:41:00So they're not experiencing the aftermath
00:41:05of these interactions as symptoms or side effects
00:41:09and wondering, what am I gonna do about this?
00:41:11Every time I'm in a room with somebody,
00:41:13they start to feel empirical.
00:41:14What's wrong with me?
00:41:15They don't think that way.
00:41:16A person who would think that way
00:41:20would be experiencing something that's ego-dystonic,
00:41:23ego-dystonia.
00:41:25This is interfering in my life
00:41:26in a way that I can't tolerate it.
00:41:28It's making me uncomfortable.
00:41:30I wanna rid myself of it.
00:41:31I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stop doing this thing,
00:41:34feeling this thing, saying this thing,
00:41:37having this dream, whatever.
00:41:38That's ego-dystonic.
00:41:39That means the person's aware that it's a problem.
00:41:42They don't like that it's originating in themselves.
00:41:44They wanna get rid of it.
00:41:45Personality disorders don't have that process
00:41:47because they have, these are ego-syntonic.
00:41:50So what that means is they're in harmony
00:41:52with the way they are.
00:41:54They just experience conflict
00:41:56when other people confront them about the way they are.
00:42:00So nothing in them is internally motivated to change
00:42:05'cause they don't think that the problem
00:42:06is originating with them.
00:42:08Okay, so that's one part of this.
00:42:10How intentional as a result of that?
00:42:14I would say it's as intentional as an introvert
00:42:19cultivating environments to cater to their introversion.
00:42:24That's how intentional it is, right?
00:42:26So what I mean by that is if you're an introvert,
00:42:30you're gonna select environments
00:42:33that cater to your introversion,
00:42:35your natural inclination to be introverted.
00:42:37And what does introversion entail, right?
00:42:40So you're gonna start creating environments
00:42:42that cater to that trait.
00:42:44And that's exactly what individuals
00:42:47with personality disorders do.
00:42:49They cultivate, select, modify their environments
00:42:52intentionally based on the traits
00:42:55that they bring to the environment.
00:42:58- What sort of ways?
00:42:59What are the things that they do?
00:43:00- Well, like a narcissist who wants
00:43:03to be the center of attention is gonna find a way
00:43:06to make an environment they're in,
00:43:10they're gonna cultivate the environment
00:43:12and select things to say and do
00:43:14and operate in the environment
00:43:16to get what they want from it, which is attention.
00:43:20So they're gonna intentionally behave in ways
00:43:22that are attention-seeking.
00:43:24Whereas an introvert is gonna intentionally behave in ways
00:43:26that draw attention to others,
00:43:28and then they're gonna regroup privately
00:43:31rather than go get stimulated social
00:43:33because that doesn't do it for them.
00:43:35So whatever the trait is, those behaviors are gonna,
00:43:41the behaviors that you engage in are gonna be motivated
00:43:44to cultivate how you feel with that trait.
00:43:47- Why is it called cluster B?
00:43:50Is there a cluster A?
00:43:52- Yeah, that's a good question.
00:43:54I mean, they're called cluster disorders
00:43:56'cause the features, not symptoms,
00:43:58the features and characteristics cluster together
00:44:00and overlap in the different disorders.
00:44:03There's cluster A.
00:44:05The cluster As are considered the odd and eccentric bunch.
00:44:10So odd, kind of bizarre behaviors, eccentric behaviors.
00:44:15The cluster Bs are the more interpersonally manipulative,
00:44:20exploitative, dramatic, erratic.
00:44:23So those are the cluster Bs.
00:44:24And then the cluster Cs are the anxious and fearful cluster.
00:44:28So disorders that operate around fear and anxiety
00:44:33being like the central feature
00:44:34rather than drama or erratic or dangerous,
00:44:39which is how we typically describe the cluster Bs.
00:44:43- What would a commonly understood term be
00:44:47for people who are cluster A?
00:44:48- What would a commonly understood term be?
00:44:52- Yeah, you're talking about narcissist and--
00:44:56- Okay, like paranoid or--
00:44:59- Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:00- Or schizoid or schizoid
00:45:03is interchangeably pronounced that way.
00:45:08The other cluster A is schizotypal.
00:45:12So we have schizotypal, schizoid, or schizoid,
00:45:16and paranoid are the cluster As.
00:45:19And then the cluster Cs are the avoidant, the dependent,
00:45:22and the, I'm drawing a blank here as I'm on the spot.
00:45:29What's the third?
00:45:30What's the third cluster C?
00:45:37Obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
00:45:40There's avoidant, obsessive compulsive personality,
00:45:43which is completely different than OCD.
00:45:45Those aren't the same.
00:45:46- So when we look at cluster A, cluster B, and cluster C,
00:45:51do these fit on the spectrum?
00:45:52If you were to make a 3D or a 2D graph
00:45:56of how the clusters sit together, does that exist
00:45:59or are these completely different universes?
00:46:02- So they're not completely different universes
00:46:03because the problems that they create in the individual
00:46:08and in the individual's relationships
00:46:11are directly related to who the person characteristically is.
00:46:16So in cluster As, these individuals
00:46:21are characteristically odd and eccentric, okay?
00:46:25In cluster Bs, they're characteristically dramatic,
00:46:30erratic, dangerous, and severe interpersonally.
00:46:33And then in the cluster Cs,
00:46:35they're characteristically fearful and anxious.
00:46:39So all their relationships operate
00:46:43based on those types of motivations
00:46:46or intrinsic perceptions.
00:46:48- Okay, that's interesting.
00:46:50All right, going back to the sort of nature-nurture debate,
00:46:54why is the idea that hurt people hurt people so attractive?
00:46:59What makes that such a seductive explanation
00:47:01if behavioral genetics and Robert Plohman
00:47:04and a couple of fucking million people
00:47:06from the biobank can explain otherwise?
00:47:09- Yeah.
00:47:11Well, I think one is 'cause the work of Robert Plohman,
00:47:14this isn't a conspiracy theory.
00:47:19I mean, it's been admittedly swept under the rug
00:47:22in academic circles and clinical circles
00:47:26because it seems to really intimidate people
00:47:29that there might be like strategy and pattern
00:47:34to what we have decided is a negative behavior
00:47:39at this point in our evolution, right?
00:47:43That the negative behavior could potentially come naturally
00:47:48or be ingrained is terrifying for people to accept.
00:47:52So what they've done instead is created this idea
00:47:55that everything is environmentally determined.
00:47:58So the reason why there's a preference for that
00:48:03is if the environment created it,
00:48:07maybe the environment can stop it and prevent it
00:48:10or modify it.
00:48:12- Well, look, I suppose this is a debate
00:48:14around behavioral genetics overall,
00:48:18but Plohman is the fifth most cited psychologist
00:48:23in the 20th century.
00:48:24That was a century that had fucking Freud.
00:48:28That was a century that had Jung.
00:48:30That was a century that had
00:48:32at some of the biggest turning points in,
00:48:34it invented the field of psychology as we know it today.
00:48:38And he's the fifth most cited.
00:48:41And the fact that the industry, he's been on the show,
00:48:44I think he was episode 320 something,
00:48:46it was a long time ago now.
00:48:48The fact that behavioral genetics is so...
00:48:58Like heretical to talk about,
00:49:01it just fucking blows my mind.
00:49:03Do you know Corey Clark?
00:49:04Are you familiar with her?
00:49:05She's an evolutionary psychologist.
00:49:07She did a great study.
00:49:07She sent a study out to,
00:49:09a survey out to every psychology professor
00:49:11in the United States at a higher education institution,
00:49:14got them to fill in some anonymous questions,
00:49:18asking about a variety of things,
00:49:21getting a cultural temperature,
00:49:22the topography of what the psychology professor world
00:49:27is like the two most unspeakable,
00:49:30this should be banned, people should not learn about it.
00:49:33The two spiciest subject areas
00:49:38that most professors were most likely to say
00:49:42they shouldn't be taught,
00:49:44evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics.
00:49:47And I think it speaks exactly to what you were saying there,
00:49:50that in an egalitarian world that's a meritocracy
00:49:53and also a capitalist competition,
00:49:55if the victors get to own their successes
00:49:59and the losers have to own their failures,
00:50:03anything that doesn't feel like your future
00:50:05is entirely in your hands is unbelievably disempowering
00:50:10because it makes it feel like the outcomes in your life
00:50:13are predestined before you're even born.
00:50:15And as you said, this isn't deterministic.
00:50:17It's probabilistic.
00:50:18As Plohman says, it does not predetermine, it predisposes.
00:50:21But it is disempowering.
00:50:24It is disempowering to find,
00:50:26Chris Hemsworth did that documentary about his health
00:50:29and he found out that he's got a couple of
00:50:32relatively rare mutations
00:50:33that predispose him to Alzheimer's.
00:50:35I mean, this is just raw biology
00:50:39and he's now taking supplements
00:50:42and adjusted his lifestyle and his diet
00:50:43and all the rest of it to try and compensate for this.
00:50:46But to find out that you've got your kid
00:50:50and if you were to have a child that had
00:50:54diabetes or autism,
00:50:57you're not looking necessarily for some sort of
00:51:01intervention to cure their autism.
00:51:03You're looking to manage it.
00:51:05Because we don't pathologize,
00:51:07the pathologization occurs more differently
00:51:12when we get into psychology than it does
00:51:14when we get into what feels a bit more like biology,
00:51:16even though biology is psychology for the most part.
00:51:18Yeah, it's just, I could talk about this all day.
00:51:23I think it's so fucking interesting, dude.
00:51:25The pushback against evolutionary explanations
00:51:28that basically say you are being shunted forward
00:51:33by forces that came about long before you
00:51:39and are kind of outside of your agency
00:51:42or at the very least you're gonna have
00:51:44to permanently fight against.
00:51:46That feels disempowering and behavioral genetics
00:51:49is that on steroids, right?
00:51:51It's that times a thousand.
00:51:53You can't change your genes.
00:51:55You can maybe turn them up and turn them down
00:51:57with some epigenetic stuff.
00:51:58But gene therapy as far as we know is pretty nascent.
00:52:03So yeah, it's an interesting area.
00:52:07- Something that I love about what Plohman does though
00:52:09is he talks about how everything is just,
00:52:13when we look at it from that perspective,
00:52:14everything is then just differences, right?
00:52:17Which I appreciate.
00:52:18I like to use the word disorder because I think
00:52:20once you cross a particular threshold of harm
00:52:23and dysfunction, we have to call it something different.
00:52:26I mean, we can say it's like a huge difference.
00:52:29But clinically, it makes more sense to say,
00:52:32okay, this is where we're operating outside
00:52:34of the bounds of what we can accept.
00:52:36And so we have to call it something other than just,
00:52:39oh, this person's very unique and different.
00:52:41We have to say, this is problematic behavior
00:52:44based on the type of society we're trying
00:52:46to collectively create, right?
00:52:49I don't find it surprising that those are the two subjects
00:52:53that are considered to be the problematic ones.
00:52:58I'm not sure why people are so intimidated by that.
00:53:03I do know that the problem is too,
00:53:05is Freud kind of commanded the ship
00:53:08of having this impenetrable, untestable theory.
00:53:13No one can ever really prove it wrong
00:53:16because it just might be that much more unconscious,
00:53:20never find it, and I think that--
00:53:21- It's unconsciousness all the way down.
00:53:23- Yeah, but that's not, I mean, that's not science.
00:53:28You have to be able to test it.
00:53:30- All right, let's get into some of the different ways
00:53:32that people can present.
00:53:33So narcissism, I see an endless number of videos online
00:53:38about how to know if you're in a relationship
00:53:41with a narcissist, how to escape a narcissist.
00:53:44When it comes to narcissism as the motivating force
00:53:49behind it, is narcissism about,
00:53:50is it really about low self-esteem?
00:53:52Or is it about something else?
00:53:54What's it about?
00:53:55- No, narcissism is excessive investment
00:53:59in one's image, the image that they prefer.
00:54:03It's excessive investment in that preferred image
00:54:05at the expense of any authentic self.
00:54:08So it's not that they have low self-esteem
00:54:12in this void of shame, which is the most common idea.
00:54:16I can direct you to behavioral geneticists
00:54:19and evolutionary psychologists that can blow that theory
00:54:21out of the water if you want.
00:54:23But it's not a shame-based disorder.
00:54:26It's excessive investment in one's preferred image
00:54:30at the expense of cultivating a true self.
00:54:33So yeah, they get hurt and wounded and offended
00:54:36and defensive, and they get triggered and they get injured
00:54:41because they haven't cultivated anything
00:54:43to receive a disagreement underneath that thin layer
00:54:48of reflection that's on the pond
00:54:51that narcissist is gazing at.
00:54:53There's nothing under there because nothing
00:54:55has been examined or cultivated.
00:54:58So it's like they're emotionally thin-skinned,
00:55:02but it's not because of shame.
00:55:05It's because they didn't put any emotional muscle
00:55:08underneath any of that.
00:55:12But they prefer to be the way they are.
00:55:14I think this really bothers people.
00:55:15Why would anybody prefer to be someone
00:55:17who doesn't get along with anybody?
00:55:19They're entitled, they don't believe in equality.
00:55:21So in a way, they expect not to get along with anybody
00:55:25because everybody has to accept that they are better
00:55:28than them in order for them to get along with everybody.
00:55:31Somehow, this got morphed into this idea
00:55:37that it's all compensatory,
00:55:39that it's all compensation for low self-esteem.
00:55:42Those are just theories based, by the way,
00:55:45on the reports of the narcissists telling professionals that.
00:55:49- Perhaps an unreliable self-witness.
00:55:52- Perhaps.
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00:56:52Difference between vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.
00:56:56Does this show up?
00:56:58'Cause I know these terms.
00:56:59I can pretend that I know what I'm talking about
00:57:00with narcissism, but is that bullshit
00:57:02or is that clinically validated?
00:57:04- I'm sure you know exactly what they are.
00:57:06A grandiose narcissist is somebody who
00:57:09you see their grandiosity overtly,
00:57:12meaning they're not concealing it.
00:57:14Vulnerable narcissism, depending on who you ask,
00:57:18one definition of vulnerable is
00:57:21they're concealing their vulnerability.
00:57:24So a covert narcissist is someone
00:57:26who conceals their vulnerability.
00:57:27To me, a covert narcissist is somebody
00:57:29who covertly is grandiose.
00:57:32They act like they're not, but they actually are.
00:57:35So it's the-- - So you're using
00:57:37the term covert rather than vulnerable.
00:57:39Is that the more clinically accurate term?
00:57:41- Covert and vulnerable narcissists
00:57:43are used interchangeably for a lot of people
00:57:45because of the concealing of the vulnerability.
00:57:49An overt narcissist is somebody
00:57:54who doesn't hide the fact that they believe
00:57:56that they are entitled to special treatment.
00:57:58So you're gonna see them a mile away.
00:58:02They know they're-- - Do you look at them
00:58:05as having different origin stories,
00:58:07coming from different places, different motivations?
00:58:11- No, I personally don't.
00:58:13I think that grandiosity is just being expressed differently
00:58:16in those two individuals.
00:58:17But the central feature of both of those individuals
00:58:20is still their inherent grandiosity.
00:58:23- But their self-belief in that is different, right?
00:58:27- No, I would disagree with that too.
00:58:29I think their belief is that they truly
00:58:32have a sincere conviction that they're superior to others
00:58:35and entitled to special treatment.
00:58:37That's when we're gonna get into heterogeneity
00:58:40or the expression of that belief.
00:58:42It looks a lot different.
00:58:43- Interesting.
00:58:44So my understanding of vulnerable or covert narcissism
00:58:48was that the grandiose narcissist genuinely believes
00:58:52I'm the best in the world
00:58:53and I believe that I'm the best in the world.
00:58:55The vulnerable narcissist would present
00:58:58I'm the best in the world to try and cover up the fact
00:59:01that I don't think I'm worth anything.
00:59:03- They're the compensatory one who's secretly suffering
00:59:06from all this hidden shame, right?
00:59:09I disagree.
00:59:11I think that the problem is they're not shameful enough.
00:59:14They don't have enough shame to put on the brakes
00:59:16to stop mistreating people.
00:59:18There's no motivating factor in their operating system
00:59:20that puts on the brakes
00:59:22'cause they're lacking in empathy and lacking in conscience.
00:59:25They've done recent studies too to show
00:59:27that what we've historically referred to as
00:59:31the vulnerable expression
00:59:35or the vulnerable presentation of narcissism
00:59:37is 90% identical to borderline personality disorder
00:59:43in criterion variables, traits.
00:59:46Borderline personality disorder
00:59:48is another cluster B disorder that is often associated with.
00:59:52Most people, when they hear the term borderline personality,
00:59:55they think of fear of abandonment,
00:59:57lots of suicidal gestures or suicidal attempts.
01:00:01There's this chronic feeling of emptiness
01:00:03and these attempts, panic and frantic attempts
01:00:09to avoid abandonment.
01:00:12But what actually is underneath a lot of that
01:00:15are if you look at the traits
01:00:17underneath the borderline personality
01:00:19are what we see, how we see vulnerable narcissists
01:00:24operating in relationships and in general.
01:00:27There's a lot of neurotic traits, negative affectivity,
01:00:31and so there's this impulsivity, there's a lashing out.
01:00:33There's pathological levels of anxiety.
01:00:40- Is that the same in the grandiose?
01:00:41- Well, no, it's not the same in the sense
01:00:45that they're not experiencing themselves that way.
01:00:50But just like we have people
01:00:55who look narcissistic very externally,
01:01:01there are also people who are narcissistic internal.
01:01:03- Okay, so one of the common patterns
01:01:07that I see people talk about online
01:01:08is narcissists pulling somebody in close
01:01:11and then suddenly pushing them away.
01:01:13Why does that seem to be a pattern?
01:01:19- Well, because narcissists live in a dichotomous world
01:01:23where something is either everything they want
01:01:25or nothing they want.
01:01:26They don't have the gray area, break pedal, pause,
01:01:29limitation mechanism in their operating system.
01:01:33They don't have the function to use that properly.
01:01:35So somebody's either idealized,
01:01:37which means they're everything that they could have ever
01:01:40wanted, or they're devalued and then discarded,
01:01:43which means they're not ideal, so they're useless.
01:01:48Narcissists see human beings and relationships
01:01:50as far as utility, not worth.
01:01:55They don't look at people how much they're worth.
01:01:57They look at how useful they are.
01:01:58- What about psychopaths?
01:02:02What makes, so I'm trying to find what the acceptable level
01:02:07of something is and then turn it up
01:02:09to what the dysfunction is.
01:02:11So what makes a psychopath's harm different
01:02:14to somebody who's just losing their temper?
01:02:17Everybody's lost their temper.
01:02:18- Right, and that's a reaction, and that's a defense,
01:02:21and that's part of being human.
01:02:25I would say, to differentiate between these two
01:02:27that we're talking about, with narcissism,
01:02:29we see grandiosity at the expense of equality,
01:02:33and that's the engine, grandiosity
01:02:36at the expense of equality.
01:02:37With psychopaths, what we see is exploitation of others
01:02:42at the expense of any sort of honor.
01:02:46They don't honor humans.
01:02:49They don't have any value for human life whatsoever.
01:02:53They don't see another person and think,
01:02:55this person should be alive or has the right to be alive.
01:03:00What they think is, I will exploit this person.
01:03:04It's a dog-eat-dog world.
01:03:06If something bad befalls them, they should have known better.
01:03:10That's kind of a psychopath's mentality.
01:03:16Psychopaths, for the most part,
01:03:20have more of an active grandiosity,
01:03:23so if you do cross them, they're gonna show you.
01:03:27They're gonna make you pay.
01:03:28Some narcissists have what's called a passive grandiosity,
01:03:32where they don't care enough about you to make you pay.
01:03:34You should have just known they were better than you,
01:03:37and so they're not gonna bother themselves with you.
01:03:39- Oh, that's interesting.
01:03:40I imagine this means that, in some situations,
01:03:43psychopaths are more dangerous, retributively,
01:03:47but there must be some situations where narcissists,
01:03:50or certain types of narcissists, might be more dangerous.
01:03:53- So you venture into the malignant narcissist,
01:03:56is when you're starting to move more
01:03:57into the exploitation and conning
01:03:59that you see common in psychopathy or antisocials.
01:04:02So there is like a sort of a bridge to that,
01:04:07where the malignant narcissist is kind of the bridge
01:04:09between NPD and psychopathy.
01:04:12Again, not across the board, but just to give a visual
01:04:16that, yes, there is a severe degree of narcissism.
01:04:20And then that's what we would refer to more
01:04:21as like the dark triad narcissism,
01:04:26where you have psychopathy, machiavellianism, and narcissism.
01:04:30- The dark triad thing's kind of fascinating.
01:04:34It's between Peterson and a bunch of other people
01:04:37that do podcasts, it's become like the hot new girl
01:04:40in school that everybody wants to talk about.
01:04:41The dark tetrad, what's that one?
01:04:44That's, what's that one?
01:04:47Sadism?
01:04:49- Sadism, yeah.
01:04:50- Is that, that's the fourth one,
01:04:52when you go for the, when you add another?
01:04:54Anyway, how common is it for somebody
01:04:59who has got narcissism to also have psychopathy,
01:05:02to also have machiavellianism, to also have sadism?
01:05:05- Ah, good question.
01:05:07Not all narcissists and psychopaths are machiavellian, okay?
01:05:12All psychopaths are narcissists.
01:05:18All psychopaths are pathologically narcissistic.
01:05:22Not all narcissists are psychopaths.
01:05:25- Okay, necessary but not sufficient.
01:05:28- Yeah, yeah.
01:05:29And then machiavellian, I would say they're psychopathic,
01:05:35narcissistic, so they're both.
01:05:39So I mean, as far as, not all narcissists are machiavellian,
01:05:43not all narcissists are psychopathic.
01:05:45All machiavellian and psychopaths are narcissistic.
01:05:49- Are all machiavellian psychopaths?
01:05:51- Ooh, good question.
01:05:53I guess if they're practicing,
01:05:57I guess you could be machiavellian in theory,
01:06:00but you wouldn't ever do the things.
01:06:02- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:03What about sadism?
01:06:04I imagine it must be difficult to be a sadist
01:06:06and not be a psychopath.
01:06:08- Yeah, well, I mean, sadism is all about
01:06:10deriving pleasure from the harm you inflict on others
01:06:13or the harm that others are experiencing
01:06:15that you just witnessed.
01:06:16You could experience pleasure from the pain they're deriving.
01:06:19But again, not all narcissists are sadistic.
01:06:26You could have a narcissist.
01:06:28- Okay, so it seems to me like narcissism is kind of,
01:06:34I don't, it's a front end of the funnel.
01:06:37It's the front door to the house.
01:06:39It's the white belt.
01:06:42It's the white belt of much of what we're talking about here.
01:06:45- To a degree, yes, because in order for you
01:06:49to graduate to these other, you know,
01:06:52whatever you want to call them,
01:06:53just antisocial, not prosocial.
01:06:56If you want to graduate to a way of being
01:06:59where you're not interested in prosocial emotions
01:07:02or behaviors at all, you could start with narcissism
01:07:05because narcissism is something that primarily
01:07:08we're supposed to outgrow when we realize
01:07:11other people exist, not, relationships aren't symbiotic.
01:07:16You know, there's others who have a subjectivity to them.
01:07:19Once you discover that in life,
01:07:20and that usually happens very early,
01:07:23someone says no to you, once you discover
01:07:26that someone else has autonomy and subjectivity,
01:07:28your narcissism is supposed to be challenged
01:07:30and you're supposed to start trying to find ways
01:07:32to outgrow it in favor of equality, right?
01:07:35- Right, so you're saying that all two-year-olds
01:07:37are narcissists in some way?
01:07:39- I think all two-year-olds are self-centered
01:07:41because they don't have the brain wiring
01:07:42to be like altruistic 'cause no one can explain it to them
01:07:46in a two-year-old language that they don't understand.
01:07:49- I'm hungry, I don't care that people are tired, I'm hungry.
01:07:54And after a while, you realize I'm hungry,
01:07:56but mom and dad are busy at the moment,
01:07:58so maybe I'll delay this.
01:08:01But with the narcissism,
01:08:03that lesson kind of never really gets to learned.
01:08:05- But even that hunger is not
01:08:08pathologically narcissistic because--
01:08:15- It's transient.
01:08:17- Yeah, because does that baby have the capacity
01:08:21to learn the lesson that you just described?
01:08:24That okay, well, it's not gonna happen every time
01:08:26on command or on demand.
01:08:28You're gonna have to wait a little bit, cry a little bit,
01:08:30you're gonna have to be a little uncomfortable in that diaper
01:08:33until human mom can come over and be human with you.
01:08:37Now, a pathological narcissist or somebody
01:08:41that I would say has trait, inherent trait narcissism,
01:08:44they'll never learn that lesson from mom.
01:08:47Oh, mom's too tired, she's got stuff to do
01:08:49before she comes here.
01:08:50They can't for the life of them figure out
01:08:52why the diaper isn't changed like that,
01:08:54and then they hold resentment and then they punish mom for it
01:08:58and they feel entitled to do that.
01:09:00And then they can't for the life of them
01:09:02figure out why somebody would ever have a problem with them
01:09:04punching mom for that.
01:09:06That's the problematic narcissism that is a complete,
01:09:10to me, it's a completely different trajectory
01:09:12than the primary narcissism that we all outgrow
01:09:16when we see that other people exist.
01:09:19There's something different at the start.
01:09:21- Of all of the different traits here,
01:09:22which is the hardest to treat or change?
01:09:26Which is the hardest to have an intervention on?
01:09:27Is it psychopathy?
01:09:28Is that the hardest to try and adjust?
01:09:31- Well, there is no known cure
01:09:37or successful treatment for psychopathy.
01:09:39You contain and manage psychopathy, you don't treat it.
01:09:44There's no treatment for it.
01:09:45They haven't figured something else out yet
01:09:49that can actually cultivate change in the personality
01:09:53of a psychopath.
01:09:53Even an incarcerated psychopath,
01:09:55they don't think differently.
01:09:58They just behave differently 'cause they're confined.
01:10:00So at this point in history,
01:10:03antisocial personality, psychopathy,
01:10:05there isn't an effective treatment
01:10:08other than some behavioral containment and management.
01:10:11So that would be the hardest one to treat or to, you know.
01:10:18But I would say that just in general,
01:10:21not clinically, but in general life,
01:10:24somebody who really doesn't understand
01:10:26the concept of equality,
01:10:28I'd say that's the hardest thing to overcome.
01:10:30So grandiosity to me, practically speaking,
01:10:35would be the most difficult trait to deal with
01:10:37because this person seriously is convinced
01:10:40that you should be treating them differently
01:10:42than they should be treating you
01:10:45because they are worth more
01:10:46and you need to find a way to come to terms with that.
01:10:49That, to me, is the most challenging one.
01:10:51- Because the sort of presence of it
01:10:57precludes the fixing of it.
01:10:59- By nature, you would have to accept that you're less than.
01:11:03- In order to improve.
01:11:04I'm perfect as I am.
01:11:05- Yeah.
01:11:06- It's kind of like being immune in some way
01:11:10to what the treatment would be.
01:11:12Like a therapy-resistant bacteria or something.
01:11:17- Right.
01:11:20Which those exist.
01:11:21So I think they exist in human personality too.
01:11:25There's a resistant personality.
01:11:26There's a personality that's resistant
01:11:28because they don't see any benefit from changing.
01:11:32They like the way they are.
01:11:33They're just waiting for everyone to accept them.
01:11:35- We'll get back to talking in just one second,
01:11:37but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish,
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01:12:39- All right, talking about how this shows up
01:12:42on the other side of the fence,
01:12:44on the side of the recipient, the interlocutor
01:12:48with the person with the particular disorder,
01:12:52what are the main tools of control?
01:12:55What are the big levers that these people push and pull
01:12:58and the dials that they turn in order to enact change
01:13:03in the other person?
01:13:06- The first thing that they typically do
01:13:08is they either naturally or they become highly skilled
01:13:13at mimicking the prosocial emotions
01:13:16that most human beings think everybody possesses
01:13:19and operates under naturally.
01:13:22So what that means is when you meet someone
01:13:26and they are friendly to you, you don't think to yourself,
01:13:29I wonder if they're being friendly to manipulate me.
01:13:32What you think is, that person's friendly.
01:13:36And so they mimic that, they mimic the typical
01:13:40cues that would indicate that they're a human.
01:13:48They mimic them and they do it very well
01:13:51so that you let your guard down.
01:13:52And they do it long enough for you to completely
01:13:55give up on the possibility that it's insincere.
01:14:00They do that long enough.
01:14:01And we call that the seduction phase
01:14:03or the love bombing phase.
01:14:05They are an ideal partner.
01:14:07They have the same trauma you have,
01:14:08the same interests you have,
01:14:10the same lifestyle and life goals as you have.
01:14:13They're practically getting,
01:14:15they're reflecting you back to yourself
01:14:17so that you'll give them the time of day.
01:14:20That's the first thing to look out for
01:14:23because the moment you see that slip
01:14:26or there's an inconsistency or a contradiction
01:14:28is when you can't just take it as,
01:14:30oh, maybe they're having a bad day.
01:14:31You have to start doing, sadly,
01:14:33you have to start doing this skeptical
01:14:36scientific investigation on that behavior
01:14:40to see if there's any convergence,
01:14:44to see if this is something that could potentially
01:14:46result in a pattern or a strategy.
01:14:48- Okay, so that's first step.
01:14:54They larp as a normal human.
01:14:58- Yeah, it's process of emotions or effort.
01:15:02- That's almost always the first,
01:15:03because presumably if you steamed in
01:15:05with psychopathic, manipulative, BPD behavior
01:15:10before somebody is invested in you,
01:15:12the bad first date, nobody sticks about
01:15:18just because, okay, that was a bit much on a first date.
01:15:22Whereas a bad seven-month anniversary,
01:15:26you're like, oh, I can give them
01:15:28a little bit more tolerance here.
01:15:29- So that kind of, we need to invest in people
01:15:34before we can accommodate them?
01:15:36- Correct.
01:15:37- That is kind of the--
01:15:38- Very well said, very well said.
01:15:40You need to invest, yeah, you need to invest in them
01:15:43before you just accept them at face value.
01:15:46- Cool, okay, what next?
01:15:47- Okay, so when there's a slip that we typically,
01:15:51in hindsight, call a red flag,
01:15:53but as it's happening, we have confirmation bias
01:15:55and we go, no, it's not that bad.
01:15:56It's just, they're just human.
01:15:58You need, when there's a slip, so when the mask slips,
01:16:01when there's something that's blatantly,
01:16:03in contrast to their pro-social presentation
01:16:09that they gave you on the first or second or third date,
01:16:11where it was flawless and they're the person of your dreams,
01:16:14at the moment, there's something that's a contradiction
01:16:16or an inconsistency.
01:16:17No matter how benign or incidental it seems,
01:16:22you have to take it very seriously
01:16:25and you need to start developing this idea in your head
01:16:30that you're gonna see, you're gonna repeat this investigation
01:16:34to see if a pattern converges, right?
01:16:37If it's a one-off, if it's an isolated incident,
01:16:39then stay reasonably alert, but not hyper-vigilant.
01:16:43Just, okay, I noted.
01:16:44But this is where people go wrong.
01:16:47We naturally are not neutral information processors, or not.
01:16:55So we're biased to information, is my point.
01:17:00So if you want a relationship to work
01:17:02'cause you really liked that person on the first date
01:17:04and you really thought they were cute
01:17:05and you really liked that they lived close to you,
01:17:08if they slip up, you're gonna use the prior information
01:17:13that you know about them to justify
01:17:15why you should still be with them.
01:17:17Humans don't justify why they should not be with someone,
01:17:20typically.
01:17:22That's part of kinship, that's part of evolution,
01:17:24that's part of, you know, loss avoidance, right?
01:17:28So the first time there's a red flag,
01:17:31you have to be counterintuitively attuned to it
01:17:36'cause it's not gonna come naturally
01:17:38for you to investigate it.
01:17:39What's gonna come naturally is for you to erase it
01:17:41and forget about it.
01:17:42That's the second thing you do,
01:17:44is the moment there's an issue
01:17:46that you could potentially test for a pattern,
01:17:48you need to investigate it.
01:17:50Don't resolve the dissonance by saying,
01:17:53"Oh, well, there's more good than bad."
01:17:55That would be the second step.
01:17:58- It seems like attention,
01:18:01where attention is being drawn and where it's being put
01:18:05is a really important tool of control here, is that right?
01:18:09- Absolutely.
01:18:10Well, 'cause just think about
01:18:11how you've done your past relationships.
01:18:13You don't think you should have to add this step of analysis.
01:18:17You just think, "That felt good, that was cool.
01:18:20Oh, they showed up again a second time.
01:18:22That felt good, that was cool.
01:18:24I might be falling in love here."
01:18:26Or, "This person's a really good friend.
01:18:27They're really generous, twice now."
01:18:30We have to accept the sad reality
01:18:31that people know and bank on you thinking that way,
01:18:35and they're gonna exploit that from the beginning.
01:18:38You just have to introduce that into your worldview.
01:18:43Or you run the risk of getting duped or manipulated
01:18:47by one of these people.
01:18:48And it could be financially devastating,
01:18:50emotionally devastating, devastating with your time,
01:18:55your resources.
01:18:57- Is there a particular profile of victim
01:19:02that these sorts of people tend to go for?
01:19:04- Good question.
01:19:06I would say no, and here's why.
01:19:09- Oh, they're an equal opportunity attacker.
01:19:13- I think they vet everyone, and the analogy I use
01:19:16is often like the used car salesperson.
01:19:19Anyone who shows up on the lot,
01:19:21they're gonna try to sell a used car to you.
01:19:22They're not gonna try to figure out how vulnerable you are.
01:19:25They're gonna just start doing their things,
01:19:27their pitches first.
01:19:29They will stick around the people who take the second,
01:19:32third, fourth, and fifth pitch.
01:19:34I mean, the one that just walks away outright,
01:19:36they're not gonna necessarily follow home.
01:19:38- Oh, they're just split testing
01:19:40for who's got sufficient resilience to put up with them.
01:19:42- There will eventually be somebody
01:19:44who is resilient enough, not because they're flawed,
01:19:47but because they just have a lot of resilience,
01:19:50who will take the fifth and sixth and seventh piece of BS
01:19:54and not like fact check or do anything.
01:19:57And then those are the ones they'll latch onto.
01:20:00- Actually, it's not necessarily that they're,
01:20:02well, it is a kind of selection,
01:20:04but it's closer to natural selection than conscious selection.
01:20:07They're gonna put out a particular type of behavior
01:20:12and there is gonna be a drop-off
01:20:15and a survival bias is gonna kick in and whoever is left.
01:20:18So this is a different way for me to ask the same question.
01:20:22Who are the people that end up in these situations?
01:20:25'Cause it seems to me it would be counterintuitive
01:20:30to think about somebody who is mentally resilient
01:20:32because a lot of the time when I think about people
01:20:34who are in relationships with BPD, narcissism, personality,
01:20:36it's that they were almost a kind of vulnerability,
01:20:39there was a vulnerability that was manipulated by them.
01:20:42So how do you square, is it resilience?
01:20:44Is there something else?
01:20:45Who are the people that end up going deep?
01:20:48- I would say it's an emotional resilience.
01:20:51They can take a beating long, long enough
01:20:56to where by the time they even start entertaining
01:21:00the possibility that they should exit the relationship,
01:21:03they're already kind of biochemically hijacked
01:21:06by the dynamic.
01:21:07And so, but I'm cautious to have this conversation
01:21:12to say that I think that you should be less agreeable
01:21:16or less conscientious or less kind
01:21:18'cause those aren't the things
01:21:19that got you into the bad situation.
01:21:22What got you into the bad situation
01:21:23is someone exploiting those things.
01:21:25- Well, that's exactly what I was thinking
01:21:27as you were talking.
01:21:28You're saying, well, you must be careful about this thing
01:21:31at the first stage and this thing at the second stage.
01:21:33I go, wow, what a difficult,
01:21:36how skeptical and cynical and highly scrutinous I must be
01:21:41of all of the different people that I encounter
01:21:43in case they're gonna,
01:21:44and what you're suggesting is that the issue
01:21:46is not your positive traits.
01:21:51It was that there was a vector of weakness,
01:21:54perhaps a strength turned up too much,
01:21:56your psychological resilience,
01:21:58your preparedness to turn the other cheek and forgive,
01:22:00your perhaps leaky boundaries, inability to assert.
01:22:04I have to assume that a lack of assertiveness
01:22:06is maybe one of the things that would be quite common here.
01:22:10- Well, yeah, I mean,
01:22:13fear that if you assert yourself
01:22:14that you're gonna like offend the person
01:22:16or that if standing up for yourself
01:22:18means that the other person is gonna be disappointed.
01:22:20I mean, I think that there's always gonna be room
01:22:24for all of us to investigate our own character
01:22:28and our own vulnerabilities.
01:22:30I just personally, I've seen people who have been,
01:22:33who have come from very well, well-to-do
01:22:37and emotionally stable upbringings get duped by this,
01:22:42following the death of their spouse, let's say.
01:22:45Like they're vulnerable in that sense,
01:22:47but they were never somebody who was like a pushover
01:22:49or somebody who like gave everyone everything they ever wanted.
01:22:54They just so happened to be in a vulnerable spot at 60
01:22:58when they're widowed and now they wanna fall in love again.
01:23:01And somebody swooped, goes into their orbit and exploits them.
01:23:05You don't need a history of being a doormat
01:23:08or a history of being abused as a child
01:23:10to fall prey to these individuals.
01:23:12They will vet anyone.
01:23:14That's just important to realize.
01:23:17So I'm cautious to,
01:23:21I don't want people to think
01:23:22that they have to do a personality makeover
01:23:24to avoid this either.
01:23:26I think that's what a lot of, unfortunately,
01:23:29a lot of people that I've worked with
01:23:31and that I've consulted with,
01:23:33they tell me that they've gone to three or four therapists
01:23:35who have told them this only happened
01:23:37'cause you're codependent
01:23:38or 'cause you have an easier attachment
01:23:40or because you didn't work out your childhood issues
01:23:42with your mom and you were vulnerable to this.
01:23:45That's not necessarily true.
01:23:47No, it might be that there's just,
01:23:48we have to come to terms with the fact that
01:23:51there are people who don't play by the social rules
01:23:53we've decided are beneficial.
01:23:56And so they're gonna pretend to play by them
01:23:58and then they're gonna exploit you.
01:24:00And it's not that you had a bad childhood
01:24:02or your relationship with your dad wasn't strong enough.
01:24:04It's just that person found an opportunity.
01:24:07They're preferential and opportunistic.
01:24:09- With other bits of behavior,
01:24:13what about flirting or creating drama to manipulate people?
01:24:18When does flirting and drama turn into manipulation?
01:24:24- In the cluster B personalities,
01:24:30seduction is kind of like a central feature of that,
01:24:35is charm and seduction and charisma.
01:24:41So I would say, I mean,
01:24:43that's kind of a hard question to answer
01:24:44because they use that as a--
01:24:48- Flirtation is manipulation.
01:24:51- They use it to begin with.
01:24:52Even if they're sincerely attracted to you,
01:24:55they're still using flirtation as a weapon.
01:25:00- Are people with cluster B personality disorders,
01:25:03are they more attractive on average, physically?
01:25:07- Why do you ask?
01:25:09That's an interesting question.
01:25:11- I was wondering whether there is a physical manifestation
01:25:15that goes along with the behavioral trait.
01:25:18- Yeah, that's a good question.
01:25:19That'd be a good question
01:25:23for an evolutionary psychologist too.
01:25:26But I mean, I'll answer it kind of generically, if you will.
01:25:29I think there's an interesting correlation.
01:25:32It's common for them to be attractive.
01:25:37There's not a particular physical type though.
01:25:39I don't want to give off that idea.
01:25:40- Short, tall, big.
01:25:42- I think what it adds more to do with is someone's,
01:25:44not their actual physical appearance,
01:25:45but their self-concept.
01:25:48They have a very high self-concept.
01:25:52So it's almost like they have this way of convincing you
01:25:55to believe about them what they believe about themselves,
01:25:58even if it's not objectively true.
01:26:01So that's why I'm kind of hesitant,
01:26:02is 'cause somebody who is objectively unattractive
01:26:05could be a cluster bee and actually be very attractive.
01:26:10Like people would find them very attractive,
01:26:13even if they're not traditionally
01:26:14what we would constitute it.
01:26:16- That's their presentation.
01:26:17It's beguiling, endearing, charming.
01:26:21- And it's also their authentic belief
01:26:23that they're that great.
01:26:25I mean, it's a sincere belief.
01:26:28That's why I say it's not a compensation
01:26:29'cause they truly are, they're feeling great.
01:26:33- Well, we use confidence as a proxy for competence, right?
01:26:38Like it's typically confidence is a lagging measure
01:26:41of somebody's level of development
01:26:44in whatever they are confident about.
01:26:51Like a competence is in some way supposed to be associated
01:26:54with whatever the fuck we're confident about.
01:26:56And therefore, if somebody turns up
01:26:58and they're full of bravado and they're very seductive,
01:27:01that can give the effect of being attractive
01:27:06without the challenge of having to be attractive.
01:27:10- Correct.
01:27:11- And it's, I guess, messy or at least complex
01:27:14the way that humans become attracted.
01:27:16It's not raw physicality. - It is messy.
01:27:19That's an important aspect.
01:27:20I think a lot of times what we mistake,
01:27:23what we mistake arrogance for confidence
01:27:25in these individuals.
01:27:27So they are very relaxed and they're calm
01:27:31and we can think, oh, they're comfortable in their own skin.
01:27:34Maybe they're really confident.
01:27:36They could actually just be arrogant, right?
01:27:39So the difference between confidence and arrogance,
01:27:41confidence is an earned self-esteem or self-regard.
01:27:46Like you're confident because if someone asks you a question
01:27:50or asks you to put this to the test,
01:27:52you're confident because you could perform it
01:27:56and demonstrate your ability or capacity.
01:27:59Arrogance is just saying shit.
01:28:01It's saying I'm good at something
01:28:02but not actually backing it up.
01:28:04But the problem with a narcissist is
01:28:07they believe they're great at things that they can't back up.
01:28:09So it's very convincing
01:28:11'cause they're not actually second-guessing themselves
01:28:13when they're trying to sell you something.
01:28:15They're sincerely believing they're good at something
01:28:17that they could be terrible at.
01:28:19The sales pitch is authentic, you know?
01:28:24- I'm wondering how many,
01:28:28actually, that's a good question.
01:28:30Of the people that we're talking about,
01:28:34of these cluster B people,
01:28:36what are the things that they would almost never do?
01:28:42Because you've mentioned these personalities
01:28:48will behave in a manner that kind of breaks down defenses,
01:28:51that LARP's is a normal functioning human.
01:28:54And then after they've got investment
01:28:55and you're prepared to accommodate more,
01:28:57that's when the veil tends to get revealed.
01:29:00Or I guess in the version of narcissism,
01:29:03it's that they want you.
01:29:04They are trying to get you
01:29:06because you are everything to them.
01:29:07But once they've got you, perhaps you're disposed of.
01:29:10I'm wondering if there are any behaviors,
01:29:14you mentioned calm, sort of in control.
01:29:18I'm wondering if there are any behaviors
01:29:20that are very rare to see manifest in these people.
01:29:23Would ever seeing them be very, very loud
01:29:27and out of control, is that a rare thing?
01:29:30Are they rarely funny?
01:29:31Are they rarely, what are the potential behaviors
01:29:35that if somebody does do it,
01:29:38that would be a suggestion that they're not,
01:29:39or that is much rarer to see?
01:29:42That they're not what?
01:29:44- In this cluster B?
01:29:46- Oh, like ways to determine
01:29:48if somebody wouldn't fit the criteria?
01:29:51- Yeah, based on something that they do do.
01:29:54I'm aware that this is difficult
01:29:55because the LARPing as a human thing
01:29:58means that all of that can be performed.
01:30:00But I just wondered if there was something
01:30:01that these people typically don't have access to,
01:30:03even in performance?
01:30:05- Yeah, that's really, that's a great question.
01:30:08And that, I mean, that's certainly a relevant question
01:30:11across the board because personal relationships,
01:30:15but even clinical practice, I was thinking,
01:30:16it's important to know these things.
01:30:18I'll tell you this, there's something called,
01:30:23there are, and I'm not gonna go into detail on this,
01:30:26so just kind of introduce the topic
01:30:28and then people can research it,
01:30:29but neurological soft signs are these psychomotor,
01:30:34sort of like behaviors, tendencies
01:30:36that are operating in the body.
01:30:38Some people who have a disorder like this,
01:30:41you can actually tell by that some mannerisms
01:30:44and ways in which their system is operating
01:30:48from just a neurological perspective,
01:30:49where there's signs that you can see
01:30:51in their psychomotor behavior.
01:30:54How they would respond and make eye contact
01:30:58after a particular type of question,
01:31:00their body, their face, their eyes.
01:31:02I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, almost woo woo,
01:31:04but there's certain things that can show you
01:31:09how they're processing or perceiving information.
01:31:12This would require a lot of study and skill,
01:31:14but it is a thing that there are these sort of signs,
01:31:19if you will, not across the board, but there's that.
01:31:24Something they wouldn't do often
01:31:27is collaborate or take accountability.
01:31:31- Even performatively, rarely.
01:31:34- Yeah, I mean, they don't really have the capacity
01:31:37to do it all the time, even in a feigned way,
01:31:41where they're constantly in character.
01:31:43I mean, it'll slip eventually.
01:31:45There'll be a contradiction or an inconsistency.
01:31:47Because they lack the function
01:31:51to use a thought properly, long-term,
01:31:55to say, oh, this is probably a time
01:31:57where I should be agreeable.
01:31:59They lack that function.
01:32:01They can do it temporarily, but they can't maintain it.
01:32:07Permanently.
01:32:08- Is it possible for someone
01:32:11to sort of genuinely be in emotional pain
01:32:14and still choose to hurt others?
01:32:16I guess hurt people hurt people is the meme,
01:32:21but is that something that actually can happen?
01:32:23- Can people who are in a state of feeling profoundly hurt
01:32:27react by hurting others?
01:32:29- Yes. - Yes.
01:32:30- But, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:32:31- Totally.
01:32:32It's just not the causative factor of personality disorders.
01:32:36- Yep, yep, yep.
01:32:38'Cause I think, I'm thinking about the lineage between...
01:32:41So actually, that's another point
01:32:45that we probably didn't get on.
01:32:46The environmental catalyst
01:32:50for potentially the raw material
01:32:54of someone's genetic predisposition.
01:32:57Let's say that you were going to maximize the expression
01:33:03of someone's potential cluster B personality disorder.
01:33:08What would you do to a child
01:33:12in order to cause that to happen?
01:33:13What would be the sort of environment
01:33:15that that child would grow up in?
01:33:16- That's a great question.
01:33:19So what would be the environment
01:33:22to ideally produce a cluster B?
01:33:25- Yes, let's say, as we've identified earlier on,
01:33:28the raw materials need to be there in some form or another.
01:33:30Let's say you've got a good raw material child
01:33:35and you're gonna try and maximize the expression of that
01:33:40through childhood into adulthood
01:33:41so that it's the most cluster B person
01:33:44that we can get out of these raw materials.
01:33:46What would you do to that person
01:33:47in early childhood, adulthood, everything?
01:33:50- Yeah, it depends on the disorder,
01:33:53but it's such a great question,
01:33:54such a great thought experiment.
01:33:55If it were a narcissist,
01:33:57you would challenge their superiority and their grandiosity
01:34:01every time, so you would enforce boundaries,
01:34:04you'd tell them people are equal,
01:34:06you would nurture them with kindness and love
01:34:09when they felt misunderstood.
01:34:10Those things would actually exacerbate their narcissism
01:34:12if they have the trait profile that's startup for narcissism.
01:34:17So you would challenge their superiority,
01:34:19you would try to convince them people are equal,
01:34:21and then you would nurture them with love and affection
01:34:24when they had tantrums.
01:34:26If it were a borderline personality,
01:34:30you would threaten that they could potentially be abandoned
01:34:35or you would invalidate them on a chronic basis.
01:34:42If they already had the biological underpinnings
01:34:44to perceive abandonment and slights that don't exist,
01:34:49you would actually increase that fear
01:34:53by trying to abandon them, or pretending to abandon them,
01:34:58or threatening that you're going to leave them,
01:35:01'cause that's the mechanism that terrifies them.
01:35:04If it were a histrionic personality,
01:35:07you would deprive them of attention.
01:35:09And if it were an antisocial or a psychopath,
01:35:16there's not really anything, I mean,
01:35:19you could disagree with them, you could put up a boundary,
01:35:24I don't know, it's kinda hard.
01:35:29There's nothing really that you could do
01:35:31in the sense that, I doubt any of those things would be,
01:35:35not doing those things would be preventative, right?
01:35:39Because we're still talking about significant heritability
01:35:43and just the way these traits operate
01:35:47if they're intrinsic, you're gonna have those tendencies
01:35:52or behaviors no matter what.
01:35:54I mean, there are certainly ways to exacerbate it.
01:35:56- Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:35:58I often think about, one of my favorite question framings
01:36:02on the show is sort of what do most people
01:36:03get wrong about X?
01:36:05Or if you were like, for instance, instead of saying,
01:36:07how do I get the best night's sleep?
01:36:11It's, let's say that you were in charge of me for 24 hours,
01:36:14what would you do to ensure that I got the worst night's sleep
01:36:17and I think that framing is really interesting.
01:36:20It's a nice inversion and what it usually gets at
01:36:24is the important Pareto big movers in any case,
01:36:28which is what the first question, like I have a child
01:36:31and I don't want them to become a psychopath,
01:36:33what should I do?
01:36:34That's kind of a messy, but I want my child
01:36:38to become a psychopath, for some reason,
01:36:40it just seems to be a little bit easier to access.
01:36:43- You're absolutely right.
01:36:44Actually, now I have better answers for it as you explained
01:36:47it to me now, I would say, if you want your child
01:36:50to become a psychopath, you challenge their authority.
01:36:52You challenge pretty much anything they want to do
01:36:58that feels good for them to do.
01:37:01They don't like being told about anything related to limits.
01:37:07- Yeah.
01:37:12- Okay, histrionic, that's like hysteria, loud, dramatic?
01:37:17- That's the word that it's derived from
01:37:23and essentially like hysterical, but yeah,
01:37:27they are the typical highly, highly, highly attention seeking
01:37:32to a point where they're like ruthlessly extort attention.
01:37:39So it's not just, I want to be seen,
01:37:41it's if it's your birthday and you're getting the attention,
01:37:45I'm going to find a way to make your birthday about me.
01:37:47So, and actually what they're lacking is shame.
01:37:53They don't have enough shame.
01:37:56They do things in public and say things
01:37:58that most people would be humiliated to do or say.
01:38:01They actually do them because their end goal
01:38:03is getting the attention, it doesn't matter
01:38:05if it's negative or positive.
01:38:07So they can behave very shamefully
01:38:11in order to get the attention, that's the goal.
01:38:14- What's the percentage of the population
01:38:18that's got something that would fall in the disordered,
01:38:21beyond the disordered threshold for these traits?
01:38:25- I would say in the general population
01:38:29based on most recent numbers and trainings
01:38:36that I've attended related to this prevalence estimates
01:38:38and stuff like 15 to 19% of the population.
01:38:43- So one in five, nearly one in five,
01:38:45one in five, one in six.
01:38:46Does it skew, is there a sex difference here?
01:38:50- Not significant.
01:38:54- No more male psychopaths, no more female narcissists?
01:38:59- In certain population samples,
01:39:03but I would say most of the time,
01:39:05I would say in the general population,
01:39:07it's probably not too outrageous
01:39:12to say that it's almost even, it's almost half.
01:39:16- What about when you drill down
01:39:20into a few other populations?
01:39:22- That's why I'm kind of hesitant
01:39:23'cause if we look at borderline personality,
01:39:26which is a cluster B personality,
01:39:27the prevalence estimates are gender prevalence is 54 and 46
01:39:35with it being more predominantly female.
01:39:37Histrionic is depending on who you ask,
01:39:41but the prevalence estimates that I recently received
01:39:46are like 50/50 in male and female for histrionic.
01:39:49- Interesting, again, derived from hysteria
01:39:54and wasn't female hysteria a diagnosis for a long time?
01:39:59And just as many guys waving the flag.
01:40:05- But what must be interesting
01:40:06is the way that a male histrionic--
01:40:10- Demonstrates their drama.
01:40:11- Yes, yes, yes.
01:40:13- Yeah, it could look different.
01:40:14So you could then say it's a completely different thing.
01:40:16- That's an interesting question.
01:40:18So what are the biggest sex differences
01:40:23in the ways that the same pathology,
01:40:28that the same disorder shows up in the sexes?
01:40:33Female narcissists X and male narcissists Y
01:40:35and female psychopath.
01:40:38What are the ways that they diverge the most?
01:40:41- I'll be honest.
01:40:42I think that there's less sex differences in the traits
01:40:45than there are gender differences.
01:40:48And so I think it's more socially and culturally different.
01:40:52So somebody might use a gender stereotype who has,
01:40:57somebody who has one of these disorders
01:40:59might use a gender stereotype to make it more believable,
01:41:04to conceal their manipulation more.
01:41:06So they might operate within the constraints
01:41:08of a particular stereotypical gender.
01:41:10But I think the traits themselves are sex neutral.
01:41:13I think a callous female is similar to a callous male
01:41:20in the sense that they don't feel the slightest bit of,
01:41:25the slightest bit unnerved
01:41:26when other people are experiencing pain.
01:41:29- Surely the capacity of the female for social manipulation,
01:41:34like if you control for psychopathy
01:41:38or if you control for narcissism,
01:41:40the female is going to have better interpersonal skills
01:41:44on average.
01:41:45The female is going to be more conscientious on average.
01:41:47The female is going to be a better liar detector on average.
01:41:49The male is gonna have more body strength,
01:41:51body mass on average.
01:41:52So they're potentially going to be able
01:41:54to use their physical size.
01:41:55So there have to be some,
01:41:58just the tools that are at the disposal
01:42:00of the man and woman are going to differ.
01:42:02- Yeah, they differ.
01:42:03And I mean, the research that I've explored
01:42:06and kind of stumbled upon shows that what they'll do is,
01:42:15they will study the best case scenario.
01:42:18Like, is it in my best interest
01:42:20to be this stereotypically vulnerable because I am a female?
01:42:26Is it in my best interest to be this stereotypically
01:42:31like formidable and to call--
01:42:33- Right, it's all a meta game of where am I
01:42:36and where did they think I am and how--
01:42:38- Yeah, there's so many steps that they take to be ahead.
01:42:43I don't think they're effortful steps.
01:42:45I think a lot of times they're effortless.
01:42:47They come naturally to them.
01:42:49But they do put in a lot of effort
01:42:50to create an impression that's not accurate
01:42:55and all in the hopes that you succumb to it
01:42:58and then they can get what they want from you.
01:43:00And again, we're not talking about good and evil.
01:43:03A lot of people would say that's evil.
01:43:05From an evolutionary perspective,
01:43:08it's like there's an absence of collaboration
01:43:11and cooperation in these individuals.
01:43:13I would just say, be advised to know they exist
01:43:17and stay away from them if you can
01:43:18and escape them if you find out.
01:43:20But I wouldn't try to ruminate over this
01:43:24any sort of a moral argument.
01:43:26You know, then you're gonna just be lost.
01:43:30- Peter, you're fucking awesome, dude.
01:43:35Like this is so, I think this is so interesting.
01:43:39I want to do another episode
01:43:40and I want to do another episode all dedicated
01:43:43on the recipient side.
01:43:44How people can sort of detect, evade, recover, recuperate.
01:43:49I think that would be awesome.
01:43:50But this is, I mean, I've seen these videos, your videos,
01:43:54you crush it online.
01:43:55I've seen this stuff pop up
01:43:57and I can see why people are pretty fascinated.
01:43:59It's kind of, it's sort of a bit like studying an alien,
01:44:04but it's your own species in a way.
01:44:07- Yeah.
01:44:10- I imagine this must be pretty compelling work for you.
01:44:12- It's compelling.
01:44:13I actually have a quote, it's interesting you mentioned that.
01:44:17There's a quote in one of my books about like,
01:44:21when you really look at how different these people operate
01:44:25and you accept it, like if you let yourself accept it,
01:44:29which is kind of hard to do,
01:44:30it almost feels like you're talking about a different species
01:44:34because everything that we've decided collectively
01:44:37is beneficial for our, for humans.
01:44:41They don't think that way.
01:44:45So it's bizarre.
01:44:46I'm not saying they're not human.
01:44:48I'm just saying it's an interesting social experiment.
01:44:52- Dude, let's bring this one into land.
01:44:55I feel like I could talk to you for the rest of the day.
01:44:59So let's cut this one off now
01:45:00and we can run it back again in future.
01:45:02Where should people go to check out everything you do?
01:45:04- Yeah, I'm on Instagram @drpetersalerno.
01:45:08I have a YouTube channel.
01:45:09I have some books on Amazon.
01:45:10I have a website, drpetersalerno.com.
01:45:13- Dude, you're awesome.
01:45:16I appreciate you very much.
01:45:17- Thank you, I appreciate your time.
01:45:19Thank you.
01:45:19- This was fun.
01:45:20Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode.
01:45:23Your brain has not been completely destroyed
01:45:25by the internet just yet.
01:45:27Here's another one that you should watch.
01:45:30Go on.

Key Takeaway

Dr. Peter Salerno explains that narcissists and Cluster B personalities hijack the brain through biological predispositions and strategic manipulation, requiring victims to understand these patterns to regain their sense of reality.

Highlights

Dr. Peter Salerno defines his work as resolving "traumatic cognitive dissonance" to help victims of toxic relationships restore their "reality confidence."

Personality disorders, particularly Cluster B (narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, and antisocial), are characterized by traits like antagonism and grandiosity.

Recent research suggests that pathological personality traits are approximately 50% heritable, indicating a strong biological and genetic foundation.

Individuals with severe personality disorders often do not learn from punishment or fear due to differences in brain activation and reward processing.

Narcissism is described as an excessive investment in a preferred image rather than a reaction to low self-esteem or childhood shame.

Cluster B individuals often use "love bombing" and mimicry of pro-social emotions to secure a victim's investment before devaluing them.

Therapeutic intervention is notoriously difficult because these disorders are "ego-syntonic," meaning the individuals are comfortable with their own traits.

Timeline

Restoring Reality Confidence and Resolving Dissonance

Dr. Peter Salerno introduces himself as a psychotherapist specializing in the etiology of personality disorders. He explains that his primary goal is to help victims of toxic relationships restore their "reality confidence" after being subjected to intentional deception and control. This process involves resolving "traumatic cognitive dissonance," which occurs when a victim is forced to hold two contradictory realities simultaneously. The manipulator often makes their evidence invisible, making it difficult for victims to reenter normal reality even years after the relationship has ended. By resolving this dissonance, Salerno helps individuals regain a clear understanding of what actually happened versus what they were convinced happened.

Understanding Cluster B and the Trait of Antagonism

The discussion shifts to the specific psychological profiles associated with interpersonal conflict, known as Cluster B personality disorders. Salerno emphasizes that individuals rarely fit into one concrete category, but rather exhibit overlapping features of multiple disorders. He introduces "antagonism" as a core umbrella trait where individuals intentionally put themselves at odds with others to create drama. A primary example provided is "triangulation," where a manipulator creates a rift between two people by fabricating lies and then denying involvement. This strategic creation of conflict serves the manipulator's needs by keeping others off-balance and disconnected from one another.

Narcissism, Grandiosity, and Hostility

Salerno clarifies that most behaviors labeled as narcissistic are actually forms of antagonism rooted in grandiosity and entitlement. Narcissists view relationships through a hierarchy where they must remain superior, making equality impossible in such dynamics. Other traits in the cluster include hostility, resentment, and envy, which often manifest covertly through sabotage rather than overt aggression. He explains that these behaviors become "maladaptive" when they are chronic patterns that interfere with the lives of both the individual and those around them. While humans may occasionally act antagonistically due to specific history, personality disorders involve an all-day, every-day plotting for personal benefit.

The Genetic and Biological Roots of Personality Disorders

Salerno challenges the common "hurt people hurt people" mantra by presenting evidence that personality disorders are heavily influenced by DNA and biology. He cites twin studies and meta-analyses indicating that all psychological traits, including pathological ones, show an average heritability of at least 50%. This suggests that individuals can develop high levels of narcissism or antagonism regardless of whether they experienced childhood trauma or adversity. While environment plays a role, the "raw materials" provided by genetics are essential for these pervasive disorders to manifest fully across a lifespan. This shift in perspective moves the focus from childhood experiences to intrinsic biological operating systems.

Evolutionary Perspectives and Adaptive Traits

The conversation explores why these seemingly negative traits have remained in the human gene pool for thousands of years. Salerno suggests that traits like impulsivity or a lack of agreeableness might have served useful purposes in specific contexts throughout human evolution. While random variation explains some of the reemergence of these traits, they can provide immediate gratification or solve problems requiring quick, non-collaborative action. However, problems arise when these traits reach the extreme end of the quantitative dimension, causing significant interpersonal harm. Even positive traits like agreeableness can become pathological if they are not balanced by a healthy level of disagreeableness.

Neurobiology, Fear Processing, and Therapy Resistance

Salerno describes the neurobiological differences in individuals with personality disorders, specifically focusing on how their brains process fear and consequences. Some brains are wired in a way where they do not learn from mistakes because the fear mechanism never registers negative outcomes, leading to a lack of motivation to stop harmful behaviors. Instead of punishment working, these individuals are often seeking effectiveness and rewards without the discomfort of social mores. This is compared to a metabolic deficiency where traditional social feedback loops simply fail to get absorbed by the individual's operating system. This biological lack of self-correction makes traditional discipline methods like "time outs" or loss of privileges largely ineffective.

The Dynamics of Clinical Treatment and Exploitation

In a clinical setting, individuals with severe personality disorders often show a lack of interest in collaboration, self-reflection, or problem-solving. Salerno reveals a counterintuitive finding: providing more nurture and empathy to these individuals can actually make them more exploitative. They often derail the therapy process by feigning cooperation while subtly manipulating the narrative to maintain control and distance. Most therapists may miss this dynamic, believing they are making progress while the patient is actually just "playing the rules of the game" to avoid genuine change. This lack of collaborative capacity is a primary reason why treating these disorders is so challenging for mental health professionals.

Transference, Counter-Transference, and the Spell of Incompetence

Salerno explains the concepts of transference and counter-transference as tools for identifying toxic personalities in the room. He notes that sitting with a Cluster B individual often makes the therapist feel overwhelming and sudden incompetence or a sense of fear and dread. These individuals "export" their devaluing of others into the environment, often causing their victims to feel insecure and lose their defenses. This process can happen in milliseconds and is often an unconscious tactic used to take the other person off their "high horse" of expertise. Identifying these unique feelings of insecurity is crucial for victims to recognize that the problem originates in the dynamic, not within themselves.

Ego-Syntonic Nature and Environmental Selection

Personality disorders are described as "ego-syntonic," meaning the individuals are comfortable with their own traits and do not perceive them as symptoms or problems. Unlike "ego-dystonic" individuals who are bothered by their own behavior, Cluster B types experience conflict only when others confront them. They intentionally select and modify their environments to cater to their traits, much like an introvert chooses quiet spaces. Salerno notes that behavioral genetics is often a "heretical" topic because it challenges the idea that everyone can be changed or fixed through environmental intervention. This reality can be disempowering to those who believe outcomes in life are entirely within a person's individual agency.

Debunking the Low Self-Esteem Myth in Narcissism

Salerno debunks the popular theory that narcissism is a compensatory mechanism for low self-esteem or deep-seated shame. He argues that narcissists are actually characterized by an excessive investment in their preferred image at the expense of an authentic self. They are "thin-skinned" not because of shame, but because they have never cultivated the emotional muscle to handle disagreement or equality. The discussion also touches on "vulnerable" or "covert" narcissism, which Salerno views as 90% identical to borderline personality disorder. He emphasizes that narcissists view people based on "utility" rather than "worth," leading to the cycle of idealization and discard once a person's utility is exhausted.

The Dark Triad and the Difficulty of Cure

The brief covers the "Dark Triad"—narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism—and explains how these traits intersect. Salerno notes that while all psychopaths are pathologically narcissistic, not all narcissists are psychopaths. He explicitly states that there is no known cure for psychopathy; it can only be contained or managed through behavioral constraints. Grandiosity is identified as the most difficult trait to treat because the person must first accept they are equal to others, which their operating system inherently rejects. This resistance makes the personality "therapy-resistant," as the individual sees no personal benefit in changing their successful, albeit harmful, strategies.

Tools of Control: Mimicry and Love Bombing

Salerno details the tools of control used by Cluster B individuals, starting with the mimicry of pro-social emotions. During the "love bombing" or seduction phase, they reflect the victim's interests and goals back to them to secure emotional investment. It is only after the victim is invested and prepared to accommodate flaws that the manipulator begins to slip and reveal their true nature. Salerno warns that any inconsistency, no matter how benign, should be investigated as a potential pattern rather than dismissed as a "bad day." He advises a skeptical, scientific investigation of behavior to prevent being biochemically hijacked by the manipulator's tactics.

Victim Profiles and the Illusion of Personality Makeovers

The final section addresses who falls victim to these personalities, clarifying that it is not just "weak" or "codependent" people. Manipulators vet everyone like a used car salesman and latch onto those who are resilient enough to tolerate multiple instances of mistreatment. Salerno cautions against the idea that victims need a "personality makeover" to avoid these people, as even stable and well-adjusted individuals can be exploited during vulnerable life transitions. He highlights that manipulators often use seduction as a weapon, regardless of their actual attraction to the person. The key to protection is not changing one's kindness, but introducing the reality into one's worldview that some people simply do not play by social rules.

Neurological Signs and the Failure to Collaborate

Salerno mentions "neurological soft signs"—subtle psychomotor mannerisms—that can sometimes indicate a personality disorder to a trained eye. However, the most reliable indicator for the average person is the individual's consistent failure to collaborate or take genuine accountability. Even when they perform these actions, the "mask slips" eventually because they lack the function to maintain a pro-social persona long-term. Salerno concludes by stating that while these individuals are human, they operate so differently from the collective norm that they can feel like a different species. He encourages listeners to focus on detection and evasion rather than moral arguments to protect their own mental health.

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