00:00:00Is people having less sex a big deal?
00:00:02It is a big deal.
00:00:03Well, ask anyone who's not having sex if it's a big deal.
00:00:06I think they'll tell you, "Yeah, it is a problem."
00:00:08Especially considering that it is young men who are typically in their prime
00:00:13and at the peak of their sexual drive.
00:00:16So, not only is it, I think, quite frustrating for them,
00:00:19but also when you're in a situation like that where you're struggling
00:00:24and it's not just about the sex, it's also about the connection
00:00:27and the emotional intimacy and the larger feeling of connectedness and community.
00:00:31So, sextinction is very much about the sex recession
00:00:35and the fact that young people, millennials and Gen Z in particular,
00:00:39are having less sex than previous generations.
00:00:41And I was skeptical at first.
00:00:43I thought that this talk about the sex recession and sexlessness was overblown.
00:00:47But after I sat down, I got a chance to go through the data myself,
00:00:51look at the media reportage, talk to people.
00:00:54And we see consistently with multiple data sets
00:00:57that one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past 12 months,
00:01:01which is a large number of people.
00:01:04And so, I was interested with this book, what is taking the place of sex?
00:01:09And what does that say about where we're headed in the future?
00:01:14How different is modern sexual activity to what we understand about the past?
00:01:21Well, in terms of, say, the outlets that we have available.
00:01:23So, one question has been, is sex really on the decline
00:01:26or is it that other outlets are taking the place like porn, muscle masturbation,
00:01:30things like OnlyFans or now AI Companions.
00:01:33So, each of these subjects have a different chapter in the book to themselves
00:01:35and in myself explaining, trying to understand what the trend is about.
00:01:40Is it convincing?
00:01:41I test them out myself, which was a lot of fun in many cases.
00:01:45Going through the scientific research in terms of what we do know about these technologies
00:01:48and then also talking about the evolutionary biology and psychology that is underpinning them.
00:01:52So, what makes these technologies alluring to human beings
00:01:55and why is it that it's potentially dangerous or distracting us from real-life sex?
00:01:59How different is the amount of sex, person-on-person sex,
00:02:04that modern people are having compared with what we understand about the past?
00:02:08Well, everyone across the board is having less sex.
00:02:10So, regardless of whether you are married or in a relationship or single,
00:02:15it's in Eastern countries, Western countries, basically all developed countries,
00:02:19in all age cohorts, but as I mentioned, more specifically among young people.
00:02:24But your question earlier about, you know, is it taking the place of potentially masturbation
00:02:28or other outlets or other sexual outlets?
00:02:31And if you look at studies that are asking about adolescent sexuality.
00:02:35So, this is an understandably uncomfortable subject, right,
00:02:38to think about adolescent sexual awakening, but they had parental consent, so it's a legitimate study.
00:02:43And what they found is even among adolescents, they are having lower rates of masturbation
00:02:49and across the board with everyone less partnered sex, less intercourse, less anal sex,
00:02:55less all types of sex, oral sex, partner masturbation, I said, solo masturbation as well.
00:03:01So, across the board, there's been this decline.
00:03:02So, it's not that people are just preferring masturbation,
00:03:05although I do think that is something that is happening, especially when we look at pornography
00:03:09and girlfriends and boyfriends and that type of thing.
00:03:12But it seems like there's something else, there's a larger phenomenon.
00:03:16And I also speak to the role of endocrine disruptors in one chapter
00:03:19because I think there's something else biologically happening.
00:03:22So, it's not just that the pie of sexual activity has been redistributed
00:03:27from person on person to solo person or person with machine or person with doll or whatever.
00:03:33It's that the overall size of the pie has gotten smaller too.
00:03:36There is less sexual activity happening as an aggregate.
00:03:43Yeah, that seems to be the case.
00:03:46And what I find interesting as you mentioned with dolls and robots,
00:03:48with the technology improving over time, I didn't think this was going to be the case.
00:03:52I always thought people would prefer in-person real-life sex,
00:03:55but I'm beginning to think people are actually preferring these solo methods.
00:03:59And it's potentially dangerous if it comes to the point where we have these surrogates like robots
00:04:04where you can implant an AI and they are no different from real-life person.
00:04:08I really think people are eventually going to, some people will be turning that way,
00:04:10but it's going to be much more popular than I had anticipated.
00:04:13When did the sex recession start in your opinion?
00:04:17It's been documented for probably the last 30 years or so.
00:04:21Like the 90s was when it really started to taper a little bit,
00:04:26but it's been the most, I'd say, prominent in the last 20 years.
00:04:31COVID definitely played a role in making things worse, but it was happening before that.
00:04:36So, the internet I think is a big part of what's happening, smartphones as well, social media.
00:04:40So, sadly, social media was supposed to make us more connected and it's,
00:04:44if anything seems to have made us more divided, even outside of the realm of sexuality,
00:04:49I think in terms of politically, in terms of men and women, in terms of even subcultures on the internet,
00:04:54just everyone seems to be fighting with each other and hating each other.
00:04:58So, I think that's feeding into it as well.
00:05:00There's this larger like political hatred that's happening between men and women
00:05:06that's also fomenting this decline in sex because if you hate the opposite sex,
00:05:10it's going to be very difficult to want to have a relationship with them or to date them.
00:05:13I had some stats I wanted to read out to you.
00:05:16One in eight 26-year-olds are a virgin.
00:05:19Twenty-four percent had no sex in the past year, about double the rate of 2010.
00:05:26Among men from 18 to 24, around one in three report no sexual activity in the past year.
00:05:31Twenty-six percent of U.S. adults reported no sex in 2021.
00:05:35Thirty-seven percent of adults having weekly sex is down from 55% in 1990.
00:05:41Thirty-seven percent weekly, down from 55%.
00:05:43Thirty-seven percent of Gen Z had no sex in the last month versus 19% of millennials.
00:05:49So, even when we're talking millennials, I haven't got it, you know, there's a big jump again.
00:05:52Forty-eight percent of married couples had no sex in the past month.
00:05:56And the Dead Bedroom subreddit is just cranking at the moment.
00:06:01But this is my favorite one, it's my favorite one by far.
00:06:04Survey of Gen Z found 67% would prioritize a good night's sleep over sex.
00:06:10Yeah, I'm not surprised, I'm not surprised.
00:06:12You like a good night's sleep?
00:06:13Well, that too.
00:06:15But the fact that, yeah, this is such a common trend.
00:06:18And it started, I mean, 2016 was when the first really big study came out showing this.
00:06:23And at the time I thought, this is probably a fluke, it's probably a one-time thing.
00:06:26But more and more, just consistently, right?
00:06:28It's like so many, so many data sources are showing the same thing.
00:06:31It's very concerning.
00:06:32I do think mental health is another big part of it, right?
00:06:35When people are, I think people are very exhausted, right, day-to-day life.
00:06:39But it's also lacking prioritization of sex.
00:06:42These other replacements for sex are taking the place because they're easier.
00:06:46And then globally, five percent of people are depressed right now.
00:06:50So if you're depressed or you're anxious, like Gen Z is, half of Gen Z has a diagnosed mental
00:06:54disorder and of them 90% have anxiety.
00:06:57There's a lot of anxious Gen Zers.
00:07:01And so if you're anxious and depressed, the last thing you're going to want to do is go
00:07:04out and meet people, sit down, have a date, potentially face rejection, have to be entertaining,
00:07:09you know, loss of motivation, feeling very self-conscious, all of this stuff.
00:07:13So like it's multifaceted in terms of, I think, all of the factors that are leading people
00:07:16to decide instead, you know, I'd rather just stay at home and swipe on apps, even if I'm
00:07:19not meeting anybody or sleep, yeah, sleep, or sleep, yeah.
00:07:24What's happening with hypergamy?
00:07:27Hypergamy has taken on a life of its own, I think, in internet culture.
00:07:30So it's this, from a research perspective or scientific perspective, it's the idea that
00:07:34women tend to want to date or marry men who are at the same level of success or who are
00:07:39more successful than they are.
00:07:41So women typically marry up.
00:07:43And so, yes, this is true.
00:07:45I think in some ways it's gone a little bit off the rails because, you know, I write in
00:07:48sex tension about three sixes rule.
00:07:50So the idea that women look for men who are six feet or taller, who make six figures or
00:07:56more and who have a six inch penis, can I say penis on your podcast?
00:08:01You can say penis if you'd like.
00:08:02Every other, every other media outlet, I've been like, is it okay if I say this, you can
00:08:05bleep it out.
00:08:06So, or manhood.
00:08:07So basically if a man does not meet those criteria, he's not considered worthy of your time in
00:08:10say, the internet dating culture for women.
00:08:14And I do like, I mean, none of those things really correlate with success in a relationship
00:08:18or marriage.
00:08:19So when you do the calculations, as I have, you know, it comes down to like this tiny,
00:08:23tiny percentage.
00:08:24So you have to also take into account.
00:08:27Is he nice to you?
00:08:28Do you have chemistry?
00:08:29Do you have things in common?
00:08:30Can you have a conversation?
00:08:31Does your conversation last more than like five seconds, you know?
00:08:34So like the more important factors whittle it down even smaller to even smaller percentage.
00:08:39So I think women who are abiding by these criteria may be missing the bigger picture.
00:08:46How many women do you think are abiding by the three sixes rule?
00:08:48So it's interesting because when you look at the internet and what's on social media, this
00:08:52is something that women are really pushing forward.
00:08:54I question, but at the same time, to having talked to a lot of men about what dating is
00:08:58like nowadays, they, from what I've been told, women have really unrealistic standards in
00:09:03terms of what they're looking for.
00:09:05But I would also say, you know, social media has made men want to date like super hot, you
00:09:09know, women who may or may not look like their photos may be super photo, photo edited and
00:09:16really perfect looking, but may or may not look like that in real life or might have a
00:09:19ton of procedures as I have a chapter on plastic surgery.
00:09:21So I think both sexes have very unrealistic expectations of what they want.
00:09:26But like anything, like evolutionary psychology and biology is not prescriptive.
00:09:30It's not saying this is what you should do.
00:09:31It's just basically generalizing or noticing trends in behavior or that explains mating
00:09:37psychology and like anything the internet takes it and just like runs away with it.
00:09:42I don't know.
00:09:43My favorite place for doing mating research is the pool at Soho House here in Austin.
00:09:47And it honestly, it's fucking ground zero for looking at mating dynamics.
00:09:52And a lot of the time, I'd be there with friends and there'd be a group of girls on the bed
00:09:59next to us and they'd be 24 or something and they're paying for Soho House membership and
00:10:05it's a couple of grand a year.
00:10:06So they're probably educated and earning well or whatever.
00:10:09They have never said, oh, it's because of the size of some guy's penis.
00:10:12Now you can say they wouldn't want to publicly state that.
00:10:16That's kind of a bit uncouth.
00:10:17That's going to make them seem a little bit silly.
00:10:20The data that I saw from Mack and Murphy the last time he was sat in that seat suggests
00:10:25that if you're a guy with a six-inch erect penis, you're in like the 97th percentile.
00:10:31So it's bigger than basically any woman has ever seen.
00:10:35So I get the sense that that's not an issue.
00:10:37The six-pack abs, if you switch it out for that, which is a guy that's sort of muscular
00:10:42and in good condition, I could see that a little bit more.
00:10:44I think women actually saw like full six-inch penises more.
00:10:50They would actually be like, I mean, 98th percentile.
00:10:53Well, yeah, because the average penis is five inches.
00:10:56So what's interesting is most women say they want a six-inch penis.
00:11:00Most men think women want a seven-inch penis.
00:11:07Most men think that they have a six-inch penis probably.
00:11:09Most men are actually harder than themselves.
00:11:12They think they have a four-inch penis.
00:11:14They have a five-inch penis.
00:11:17Women want the six-inch penis and men think that women want the seven-inch penis.
00:11:20Fantastic.
00:11:21So that's the thing else with hypergamy.
00:11:22I feel men are really hard.
00:11:23I don't want to say hard on themselves, but difficult.
00:11:25They challenge themselves more than they need to.
00:11:27If you're using the word hard, it's fine.
00:11:29Because they think like women want, again, like I read about looks maxing.
00:11:33Men think that women want this super hot Chad guy that he has a perfect bone structure, that
00:11:38he has to have all these metrics, especially guys are getting penile injections in terms
00:11:42of filler or they're getting like enlargement.
00:11:46And women, I mean, yes, some women do like those things, but by and large, most women
00:11:50care more about resources and protection.
00:11:52And are you a good person?
00:11:54So I think hypergamy has also gone off the rails a bit in that way and that men think
00:11:59that women just keep wanting more and more and more and better and better and better.
00:12:02And to some extent that's true, but I think also like you have to, we have to give love
00:12:06some credit as well.
00:12:07If you're happy with someone, I don't think the other person is going to have a reason
00:12:10to go elsewhere.
00:12:11Yeah.
00:12:12I get this.
00:12:13And the internet, it makes a lot of sense on the internet because it's very easy to put
00:12:16into a spreadsheet.
00:12:17I can put my height, I can put my penis length, which I do all the time.
00:12:21I can put all their objective metrics and it's kind of like that is having a boyfriend cringe
00:12:29now article.
00:12:32Very quickly, if you go outside, you realize that is having a boyfriend cringe is only true
00:12:37on the internet in the same way as the Kardashians made skinny not a fad as cringe.
00:12:44Like it just, it really doesn't exist if you go out into the real world.
00:12:48If you go and sit around Soho house pool, for the most part, the issues that at least I hear
00:12:53from women and I hear at my live shows is guys aren't ready to commit and they're not sufficiently
00:13:01emotionally educated and they don't seem very balanced and they don't really have their life
00:13:04together.
00:13:05They don't have a mission and they don't know where they're going.
00:13:06Now, I think that a lot of that is maybe publicly acceptable ways of putting a more difficult
00:13:15to define sense that there just wasn't chemistry.
00:13:19Something wasn't quite right.
00:13:20Why?
00:13:21Well, if you're a post grad girl trying to date a blue collar guy, there might be a little
00:13:28sense of socioeconomic imbalance going on here.
00:13:31Have you heard me talk about the tall girl problem?
00:13:38Fucking Scott Galloway.
00:13:39Scott Galloway keeps calling it the high heel effect because he's ancient and he's demented.
00:13:47It's the tall girl problem.
00:13:48And then he stole it from me and started talking about it on CNN and misnamed it.
00:13:52And now that anyway, tell me, tell me Chris, what is the tall girl problem?
00:13:55Look, it's exactly what you're talking about, which is if you have women that are socioeconomically
00:13:59more successful, you have an ever increasing group of high-performing women and never decreasing
00:14:03group of ultra high-performing men that are above and across from them.
00:14:06That gives most men this sort of invisibility cloak that means that they're not seen by women
00:14:11as potential protector providers.
00:14:14It creates a large cohort of women that did everything right.
00:14:19I went to university, I got the job, I pursued my career, I've got financial independence,
00:14:24and I'm struggling to find any guys that I'm attracted to.
00:14:27Look, I can't really work out why.
00:14:29And oh, he seems really good, but that guy that's in the rarefied strata at the top has
00:14:35a wealth of options.
00:14:36So they're able to use and discard women.
00:14:38And then that really sort of gnarly outcome is that if you have casual sex with somebody,
00:14:46that skews your own self perspective of your mate value, your self referential mate value
00:14:54perspective gets a little bit tuned up and you think, well, I got it for one night.
00:14:58I should be able to get it.
00:14:59It's like there is a difference between what you can get on rent and what you can buy.
00:15:03And that altogether it doesn't make for a very easy environment because these women don't
00:15:08want to be used and discarded, but they also don't necessarily feel that much resonance
00:15:13with the guys that are in the cohort of men that are socioeconomically below them.
00:15:18Men that are in relationships where they're not the primary breadwinner, 50% more likely
00:15:22to use erectile dysfunction medication.
00:15:25Man loses his job, the likelihood of marriage of divorce doubles.
00:15:29Woman loses her job, no difference in terms of the likelihood of divorce.
00:15:33So all of these things are kind of raw physics of the system.
00:15:35And we can say, well, maybe you can offset hypergamy.
00:15:38Maybe people are not going to, women are going to learn to value other things in this way.
00:15:44And I get the sense that this is more the literal physics of the system, largely unbreakable.
00:15:49And I mean just that for coupling for young people, especially given women out on men by
00:15:56a grand and a half per year up to age 30.
00:15:59One in seven couples now is the woman is the primary breadwinner.
00:16:02Yeah.
00:16:03Yeah.
00:16:04The bottom 40% of male earners and the top 20% of female earners are dating female primary
00:16:10breadwinner.
00:16:11So the top quintile for women and the bottom two quintiles for men are dating in the opposite
00:16:15hypogamous direction, just like don't even need to talk about the endocrine disruptors
00:16:20and the desire for sex and porn and all the rest of it.
00:16:23Just the coupling.
00:16:24Right.
00:16:25Just simply the coupling there.
00:16:26Because I'd be interested to know how much hypergamy plays a role when it comes to a one
00:16:30night stand.
00:16:31Well, okay.
00:16:32So that's a huge thesis of my book.
00:16:35This idea that because women are becoming more educated and more financially successful than
00:16:40men, they have fewer suitable bachelors to choose from.
00:16:45So what you find is that very successful men...
00:16:47Tall girl problem.
00:16:49Well, I need to quote my own term for this.
00:16:51It's fine.
00:16:52And I'll go on CNN and...
00:16:53And then misquoting.
00:16:54Call it something else.
00:16:55Call it something else.
00:16:56And then you and Scott can have a fucking battle to the end of time to work out who can misquote
00:16:59me.
00:17:00It's fine.
00:17:01So what happens, as you're saying, is that there's this smaller pool of very successful
00:17:05men who have their pick of the lot, who are disincentivized in terms of settling down.
00:17:11So if they want, I mean, they can have multiple marriages in a row.
00:17:14You will see this happening.
00:17:15So you can't have polygyny, but what you'll have is multiple marriages in a row.
00:17:19So they'll marry someone, have children, divorce her, have another marriage, have children,
00:17:24divorce her, go on.
00:17:26And then what happens is with men's dual mating strategy is that you have long term choices
00:17:32and short term options.
00:17:34And so the women who fall into the short term bucket may erroneously think that they are
00:17:39one of the long term options, but men very much, when they meet someone or meet a woman,
00:17:43they choose which bucket she's going to go into and there's not much chance of a crossover.
00:17:47Madonna-Hore complex.
00:17:48Yeah.
00:17:49Yeah, exactly.
00:17:50So in terms of hypergamy and how to fix it, I think getting rid of DEI would be one start.
00:17:57So diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives, because that actively penalizes men, punishes
00:18:01men for no good reason.
00:18:03And if you are-
00:18:04Is that true?
00:18:05It actually actively penalizes men as opposed to just lifting up other groups?
00:18:09Yeah.
00:18:10Well, I mean, coming from academia, I can tell you that they actually have job postings.
00:18:13I've seen them myself where they explicitly will say this job is for a minority or a woman,
00:18:19you know, basically ruling out white men.
00:18:22And-
00:18:23I'm an immigrant.
00:18:24So it doesn't affect you.
00:18:25But it's crazy.
00:18:26I mean, I've had so many colleagues tell me this.
00:18:28I'm not in academia anymore, but they will tell me the things that they experience behind
00:18:32basically closed doors, where if they want to apply for something, they'll be discouraged
00:18:35because they'll say this position is for a woman or for a minority.
00:18:39So don't bother applying.
00:18:40So this is just one, you know, fraction of society.
00:18:43My understanding is this happens everywhere.
00:18:45This was very much in like corporations as well, but I think it's been hopefully dialed
00:18:49back a little bit, right?
00:18:51And your goal here is if you enable men to get access socioeconomically, that allows this
00:18:58imbalance that the tallness of women, the men get to grow a little bit taller.
00:19:03Right, right.
00:19:04It lets it be a little bit more of like a organic outcome.
00:19:06Isn't it strange, there's sort of a zero sum perspective of empathy that any support that's
00:19:14given to any group is seen as being taken away from another group, especially one that's more
00:19:19deserving.
00:19:21And that if we support and raise up men, that that means that we're taking away from some
00:19:27minority or somebody else that should deserve it.
00:19:30But if your goal is to live a happy life, if you're not enabling guys, if you're a girl,
00:19:39woman, and a mother, right, you don't even need to be in the dating pool, married mother
00:19:42that's exited the dating pool, presumably you want your daughters to be able to have
00:19:45eligible partners.
00:19:47The very dearth of eligible men is caused by the fact that they're not being given this
00:19:53kind of access.
00:19:54It's an interesting one because I don't know if men are actually that keen about the idea
00:20:01of going to university.
00:20:02I don't know how driven they are about the career thing in quite the same way anymore.
00:20:07Part of it I think is because of the DEI and the feminism and that they sense that they're
00:20:13not going to get a fair chance.
00:20:14You know, if they're being taught all through say the education system, in high school even,
00:20:19girls are getting, I've seen polls where they show like male students say they feel it's
00:20:23unfair, girls get our favorite by teachers.
00:20:26So already they're feeling a bad taste in their mouth and then you go to Pilate University
00:20:29and you, you know, the odds are stacked against you.
00:20:33I do think that, I understand why some people, especially some women or more progressive women
00:20:39may be fearful of allowing men to have a fair chance or to roll back some of the advantages
00:20:45that have been given to women because they fear, is this the start of us not being allowed
00:20:49to work?
00:20:50Regression.
00:20:51Regression, education or own property or things like that.
00:20:54But I do think, I think they have a very misguided idea of what the outcome is going to be because
00:20:59if it continues this way where women are continuing to outperform men in education, they make more
00:21:05money, who are you going to date?
00:21:08You know, they think that the men, because these men have fewer options, that they're
00:21:12all going to be clamoring for these women, but these women, because they're so educated,
00:21:16they're not going to want anything to do with these guys.
00:21:19So they're all fighting for this smaller pool of men and it's going to be vicious.
00:21:23Yeah, it's not good.
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00:22:39How's birth control contributed to this?
00:22:42So birth control has affected mating psychology.
00:22:45I'll start with women.
00:22:48Because birth control halts ovulation, so just write briefly for your audience in case they
00:22:54may not be aware of how birth control works, ovulation is when women are the most fertile
00:22:58in their cycle.
00:22:59So that's when they can become pregnant.
00:23:00So that window is typically around, say, day 11 to 16 of your cycle.
00:23:05So your first day of menstruation is day one, and then it goes into, I'll leave it at that.
00:23:11So basically when you're ovulating, because you can get pregnant, your sexual psychology
00:23:15is, we'll say at its peak.
00:23:17I think it's a very interesting time to be studying in terms of women and their mating
00:23:22decisions because that's when their decisions about sex have the greatest potential consequences.
00:23:27So if you're halting that process in a woman or an entire multiple generations of women,
00:23:32one in 10 women of childbearing age is on the pill.
00:23:38One in 10?
00:23:39Mm-hmm.
00:23:40So you would read more?
00:23:41You would think it's more, but it's 11%.
00:23:42What about in the West?
00:23:43That's in America.
00:23:44No way.
00:23:45It's only 11%.
00:23:46Yeah.
00:23:47According to the CDC.
00:23:48Have you encountered, that's any type of birth control or just the pill?
00:23:52That's just the pill.
00:23:53So you could have the implant, the arm implant thing.
00:23:55You could have the injection.
00:23:56You could have IUD.
00:23:57You could have marina coil.
00:23:59Yeah.
00:24:00In sextinction, I have the statistic regarding like all birth control, or rather all contraception.
00:24:05But in terms of the pill specifically, so what happens is if you're not ovulating, you're
00:24:09basically blunted in terms of that sexual interest and that signaling, because during that time
00:24:15women have been shown in studies to wear more provocative clothing, they're more likely to
00:24:19want to go out to clubs and meet men, to socialize, things like that, right, to meet partners.
00:24:24And also men can tell when women are ovulating.
00:24:27So they can tell in terms of a woman's appearance, they can tell by her scent and men who are
00:24:31in relief.
00:24:32And tell by the way that they walk.
00:24:33You see that study where they did silhouettes of women walking down the street.
00:24:36So good.
00:24:37Yeah, it's wild.
00:24:38And men in relationships will show more mate guarding behaviors when their partner is ovulating
00:24:43if she's not on the pill.
00:24:44I didn't know about that.
00:24:45Yeah.
00:24:46That's cool.
00:24:47So he'll call and check up on her.
00:24:48I don't know that these men are necessarily consciously aware, but they're trying to basically,
00:24:52you know, like C block other guys.
00:24:55So if that's off the table entirely, surely that's doing something as well to men's mating
00:25:01psychology.
00:25:02And so I think if women want to take the pill or not take the pill, that's their choice.
00:25:06But I wish there was more in terms of information for young women, especially considering that
00:25:11many young women get on the pill when they are say teenagers.
00:25:15They're on it for non-sexual purposes, things like regulating their menstrual cycle or say
00:25:19for their skin or whatever reason.
00:25:21And they, I don't think are aware necessarily of this side effect and how this might change
00:25:27their reproductive choices.
00:25:30Because what happens is once you get on the pill, I have a chapter on reproductive technology
00:25:33like egg freezing and IVF.
00:25:35So once you start to delay your fertility, you're going to spend more time later on trying
00:25:39to make up for it.
00:25:40If you decide to have children.
00:25:42And I don't think that young women are necessarily as aware of that either that your biology is
00:25:47something very important to consider as a woman and it's, you know, that's seen as sexist to
00:25:51say that, but that's the reality.
00:25:53And you know, especially if you want a family, it's important to prioritize that because that
00:25:58process is going to affect you in a way that's different for men.
00:26:02I had Sarah Hill completely just took my head off with all of the impact of hormonal birth
00:26:08control.
00:26:09I think that a lot of the modern mental health issues that we're seeing with young women can
00:26:13probably be laid at the feet of at least, I would love to do a cohort analysis between
00:26:19how many of the people that have got anxiety or depression also took hormonal birth control
00:26:25during puberty or are still on it now.
00:26:27I mean, the fact that your mate choices for women change when you're on the pill versus
00:26:32off the pill that you seem to prioritize a little bit more for provisioning when you're
00:26:37on the pill and a little bit more for protection when you're off the pill.
00:26:40These are, you know, small effects, but they're there.
00:26:45How many women that I've heard from who said I was on the pill for ages, then I came off
00:26:50and I wasn't attracted to my partner anymore.
00:26:52Okay.
00:26:53But when is the first time that most women come off the pill if they've been on it since
00:26:56they were teenagers?
00:26:57When they're ready to have kids.
00:26:58But if you're doing it right, you've gone teenagers, twenties, found a partner, stayed with a partner,
00:27:07golden retriever, moved in together, engaged, married, off the pill, ready to have kids.
00:27:13You are deep.
00:27:14And it's a great piece of advice is you need to, if you're thinking about getting the golden
00:27:20retriever, right?
00:27:21Not even thinking about moving in, not even thinking about the engagement thing, you should
00:27:24come off the pill.
00:27:25You should come off the pill.
00:27:26And you're just going to have to be extra careful, protection.
00:27:30You're going to have to, you should come off the pill and work out if you still like your
00:27:32boyfriend, because the likelihood of you not, in some women, it makes them more attracted
00:27:39to them.
00:27:40Right.
00:27:41In women that are in relationships with more masculinized, more formidable, more attractive
00:27:46men, they actually get released out of this hormonal fugue state.
00:27:48And they're like, I'm in a relationship with a Chad.
00:27:51This is great.
00:27:52Let me jump on you.
00:27:53And then in other versions, they've been optimizing for something that a more sort of native physiology
00:27:59or hormonal profile of theirs would not have been too keen on.
00:28:03And then when they, when they reveal that, that mask, they go, oh, I really, I really
00:28:10like you all that much.
00:28:11Yeah.
00:28:12Which is unfortunate for both of them and it's unfortunate for him.
00:28:15I can only imagine as a guy, you know, if your relationship…
00:28:17We were in love.
00:28:18Go back on the pill.
00:28:19Go back on the pill.
00:28:20Bring it back.
00:28:23What was I going to say?
00:28:24I wonder if, because young women are getting on the pill at such a young age, is this partially
00:28:30also why feminism has been so popular and why women really want to feminize men and they
00:28:35see masculinity as toxic?
00:28:38Because if you, while on a pill, your body thinks you're pregnant and you're looking
00:28:42for a nurturing caretaker, is that why there's just been this larger movement socially to
00:28:48encourage men to be much more feminine, not to be risk-taking, not to be dominant.
00:28:55To a degree.
00:28:56To a degree.
00:28:57I think I could imagine so.
00:29:01I would also imagine that #metoo and a lot of the moral panic around the danger of men
00:29:06generally causes women to want a softer kind of man.
00:29:12Now, they only want a softer kind of man kind of in principle, not in practice, you know,
00:29:17in the mid-twenty teens, they tried to put what are called cinnamon roll boyfriends or
00:29:24golden retriever husbands on the front cover of romance books.
00:29:29I say this as somebody that was in that industry for a little while.
00:29:32What's a cinnamon roll?
00:29:34Cinnamon roll husband.
00:29:35Cinnamon roll husband is sort of soft, fluffy, very non-dominant, very pliable.
00:29:40You know, he's got a bit of a gut, but he's the sort of guy who would be able to put up
00:29:45level shelves, but wouldn't exactly ravage you in the backseat of a car, right?
00:29:50Very reliable, consistent husband.
00:29:52And with these romance books, the person on the cover is the protagonist, typically.
00:29:58These books were post Fifty Shades of Grey, so it should have just ripped, right?
00:30:03You're buying Bitcoin at five cent, the market's only going up.
00:30:07Nobody wanted to buy them.
00:30:08Nobody wanted to buy these.
00:30:09Now, it is kind of like female porn.
00:30:12So do you really want to watch, do you want your sexual fantasy to be about some guy that
00:30:17can put up level shelves, but isn't that good in the bedroom no matter how much you try and
00:30:21sort of repurpose it?
00:30:22But the point is, women like the idea of this kind of, they'll proclaim it, right?
00:30:29It's a view that they'll endorse, that men should dial back their dominance and the desire
00:30:33for conquer and aggression and mastery and stuff like that.
00:30:36But it's not one that they will endorse it, but not embody it.
00:30:40And when push comes to shove and you go, oh, yeah, yeah, he should be more soft and more
00:30:45gentle and less concerned with achieving things and stuff.
00:30:48What does your husband do?
00:30:49Oh, he's a hedge fund manager.
00:30:51Oh, fantastic.
00:30:52Very good.
00:30:53I used to do MMA as a young guy.
00:30:55Lovely.
00:30:56But I do think on the birth control thing, you're right, what is it doing to men?
00:31:02I think that there's evidence to suggest that men who are around old women, post-menopausal
00:31:09or young girls, their testosterone drops, their fertility drive drops.
00:31:16So I know that you've got a question around what's the X factor that's contributing to
00:31:20testosterone dip.
00:31:21I think that the artificial suppression of female fertility through birth control and
00:31:27the increasing isolation of men that they're not hanging around with fertile women or any
00:31:31women at all.
00:31:32And of them, more of them are elected infertile through birth control.
00:31:37I think that that is definitely a potential X factor that I don't think anybody has priced
00:31:42in.
00:31:43No one's priced in the fact that male sex drive and their hormone profile is impacted
00:31:48by the fertility of the women in their local ecology.
00:31:51And if you're not around women that are fertile and not around women at all, that is going
00:31:56to drive your sex drive down and it's going to drive your testosterone down.
00:32:01Interesting.
00:32:02I was going to ask you, what was it like shooting for those novels?
00:32:05Um, so the way that I used to do it was I would shoot with a photographer for just my
00:32:12portfolio stuff.
00:32:13So it wasn't, it wasn't purposefully raunchy shit.
00:32:16I guess.
00:32:17I don't know.
00:32:18I just, I just turned it on.
00:32:19Uh, I don't know.
00:32:20I don't know what happened.
00:32:21Anyway, I got picked up the first shoot that I did, got picked up by a really good author
00:32:28and put on the cover of a book called Ricochet.
00:32:30And then I got flown out to go and do some of these like book conventions, I suppose.
00:32:41But the entire thing is like 2000 dark romance readers.
00:32:47So there's me and a couple of the other cover models, and then the husbands of the authors
00:32:52that are there to help them.
00:32:54And that's it.
00:32:55And it's just, apart from that, it's just female, female readers, um, which sounds wonderful
00:33:00in practice, but the, um, I was 27, 28 or something like that.
00:33:06Um, the age profile, I was the youngest person in the room usually by like a factor of two.
00:33:11Um, anyway, it was, it was interesting.
00:33:13It was fun.
00:33:14Um, it's a part of my history, but, um, um, I've aged out, I could be, I might just pivot
00:33:20into cinnamon roll husband.
00:33:21I can't wait for that.
00:33:22Get a go.
00:33:23Chill out.
00:33:24There you go.
00:33:25If this podcast, you know.
00:33:26If it tanks.
00:33:27So we, we, we've, you've already got what's happening with hormonal birth control for women,
00:33:31and then we do have endocrine disruptors for men too.
00:33:33Yeah.
00:33:34Yeah.
00:33:35So definitely, I mean, there was, there've been a number of studies showing this at testosterone
00:33:38levels have been declining for the last, say 40 years.
00:33:41And it's been, you know, pretty severe, I would say in the last 20 years.
00:33:45And researchers have accounted for things like age, diet, you know, weight, exercise, lifestyle
00:33:52choices like alcohol, smoking and cannabis.
00:33:55And still they say, there's something going on here where it is environmental and that
00:34:01it is something specific to this time period.
00:34:05And so they do think that there's something, you know, in terms of the food we're eating
00:34:09potentially or in our water supply.
00:34:12I've read a lot of the animal literature in terms of, uh, drugs in the water and how this
00:34:18affects fish or What are the craziest stories that you learned
00:34:21about that?
00:34:22Um, there was one species of Japanese fish and they tested diazepam.
00:34:29So okay.
00:34:30Well, there was one study that looked at fish that were exposed to pharmaceutical waste.
00:34:35And then also, um, there was, I'm trying to think what the other source was, but basically
00:34:41one part of the water supply, the fish were masculinized.
00:34:45So there are intersects in both directions.
00:34:46Some of the fish were like more masculine and then some of them were feminized.
00:34:50So it's basically saying, you know, this is happening to the fish.
00:34:53Like what do you think it's doing to humans?
00:34:55But with these Japanese fish, they were lethargic and they were basically too knocked out to
00:35:02breed.
00:35:03The courtship behavior was messed up.
00:35:05The female fish, their ovaries were so distended and I felt really bad for the fish looking
00:35:09at these pictures because I thought that doesn't look very healthy or comfortable.
00:35:14So it's basically, you know, these, these drugs are doing something, I think doing something
00:35:19to us and how, you know, if you're not even aware of it, even if you do manage to find
00:35:23a partner and you fall in love and decide you do want to have a family, you may come
00:35:27up across, come up against these issues.
00:35:30And then if you're not even aware that this is what you're ingesting on a daily basis,
00:35:33what do you do then?
00:35:34SSRIs drive, sex drive down, right?
00:35:36Yeah.
00:35:37Yeah.
00:35:38They affect libido.
00:35:39And there's also post SSRI sexual dysfunction.
00:35:40Syndrome.
00:35:41Yes.
00:35:42Yes.
00:35:43Yes.
00:35:44Yes.
00:35:45Yes.
00:35:46ESSSD.
00:35:47Yeah.
00:35:48Yes.
00:35:49Yes.
00:35:50Yes.
00:35:51Yes.
00:35:52Yes.
00:35:53Yes.
00:35:54And in some cases they are being prescribed to kids.
00:35:55So that's very concerning.
00:35:56A quick aside.
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00:35:58They reduce.
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00:37:05Is the issue, do you think, more about a desire for sex or coupling?
00:37:11Hmm.
00:37:13You mean in terms of why people aren't having it?
00:37:15Yeah.
00:37:16Probably both.
00:37:17I think at the core, everybody wants to find someone.
00:37:20Many people may say that they've given up and they're happy on their own, but I do think
00:37:23that's what most people deep down want.
00:37:26And sex is, well, the thing with sex though, I think porn is a big part of this issue in
00:37:32terms of why people are turning away from actual sexual activity.
00:37:35They're getting their needs met through this proxy that simulates real sexual activity because
00:37:42when you're watching porn, the same network of brain regions is activated as when you're
00:37:45actually having sex.
00:37:47So you're having the resulting orgasm and you are getting these feel-good chemicals.
00:37:53It helps to self-soothe and regulate your emotions, help calm down if you're stressed out.
00:37:59And so it makes men, I think, in particular, less likely to want to go out and go through
00:38:03the hassle of having to talk to a woman, having to sit through a date, having to pay for the
00:38:07date, having to follow up and all this stuff.
00:38:09Why bother do that if you can get sexual gratification on a screen?
00:38:13But I think also that leads to potentially an overall sense of lethargy because when you
00:38:19are masturbating and having orgasm, you're going to be sleepy after.
00:38:25So is that also, you can tell me, do you think this is a trend, not for you, but just a trend
00:38:28more generally with young men in terms of does this affect their motivation?
00:38:34Because I'm wondering for guys, this question of why men are falling behind in society, right?
00:38:39And I am very concerned for young men because I imagine, I hear all the time from parents
00:38:44that their daughters are doing really well, excelling academically, but their sons just
00:38:48for whatever reason, they're not enjoying it.
00:38:51They're having mental health issues.
00:38:52I think they're just staying at home and fapping all the time.
00:38:54Yeah, well, maybe not fapping, but they're like, you know, vaping and playing video games
00:38:58or online betting or whatever, and they have no motivation.
00:39:01Do you think porn could be part of that?
00:39:03Because I think if you're exposed to this at such a young age, and this is the thing that
00:39:06you're watching every day, and it's your coping strategy, that potentially, that's the thing
00:39:11you're going to constantly gravitate toward.
00:39:12And it's actually going to, you know, make you really sedated and lethargic more broadly
00:39:16in life.
00:39:17Yeah, I think sedated is a great word.
00:39:19I've got another idea that Scott probably can't wait to fucking misquote, the male sedation
00:39:24hypothesis.
00:39:25Young male syndrome, which I know that you know about historically high volumes of young
00:39:28sexless men tended to cause anarchy and revolutions and push over granny and set stuff on fire.
00:39:34Why is it given that we've seen the highest rates of sexlessness amongst young men in the
00:39:38modern world that we're not seeing the concordant amounts of antisocial behavior?
00:39:43And it's my belief that men are being sedated out of their status seeking and reproductive
00:39:49seeking behavior through screens, video games and porn.
00:39:54And yeah, that's what's happening behaviorally.
00:39:56Maybe the semantic ring disruptors, maybe a lot of weed.
00:39:58I think more people, more young guys smoke weed than drink alcohol now.
00:40:02So yeah, it is a real push toward lethargy.
00:40:07Do I think that you're anesthetizing yourself from your sort of mate seeking behavior by
00:40:14being able to use porn, almost certainly to a degree, I mean, there's even the opposite,
00:40:21which is what was it, masturbate before you evaluate was a tagline at university, which
00:40:26was, do I really want to sleep with that girl?
00:40:29Let me have a wank first and work out if I still do.
00:40:33And for the most part, the guys were like, no, I wasn't that, like, what was it?
00:40:37I didn't like you.
00:40:38I was just horny.
00:40:40And in some ways, you know, that avoids me from making mistakes, but when you do it on
00:40:43mass and when it's very easily available.
00:40:47I mean, look, there's some mixed bag data, Dr. David Lay is very anti-porn panic and Mike
00:40:56Israel is very anti-porn panic too.
00:40:58And then on the other side, there's some people that behaviorally it's not recognized as an
00:41:03addiction properly yet, I don't think.
00:41:06But it seems impossible to me that one of the strongest drivers for humans being given to
00:41:14them freely, they can essentially push a button, like rub a button for a while, and they get
00:41:23to experience this thing that, I mean, you know, it would be fascinating.
00:41:28I would have loved to have seen in hunter gatherer tribes how much masturbation occurs.
00:41:33Probably too busy foraging.
00:41:36Okay, well, that might be true.
00:41:40Just talk to me, the neuroscience of porn news, is there anything distinct about that that's
00:41:44different to what's happening when people have sex?
00:41:46Okay, I was going to mention, I was going to say something.
00:41:49Oh, so what I was going to say, I agree with you in terms of like, if you're, I can see
00:41:54if you're doing it like constantly, and it becomes a lifestyle thing, how this is what
00:41:59my concern is, if it's like a lifestyle thing for guys, because I've had men say to me, when
00:42:04they are not watching porn, if they manage to cut out porn entirely, that they actually
00:42:08have more motivation to go up and talk to a woman.
00:42:11Because I would imagine, if you see a woman that you're attracted to, and you want to go
00:42:14speak to her, and say you're maybe more shy or anxious, you know in the back of your mind
00:42:18that you can go home and masturbate.
00:42:20And that's going to give you a release after.
00:42:22In some ways, would that not make it a little bit easier for younger guys, especially who
00:42:27may not have as much experience with women, and especially post me to where they're already
00:42:31a little bit understandably more scared to talk to women, how it knowing that you have
00:42:36this other option might...
00:42:39That's a good point.
00:42:40That is a good point.
00:42:41I mean, it's the same thing as if the only way that men could get sex was by marrying
00:42:48a woman, asking her father, becoming a pillar of the community, showing his competence.
00:42:53Or if you just need to be in a nightclub at the right time in the right place at two in
00:42:56the morning, like men will meet those standards appropriately, including the standards for
00:43:00themselves in order to get sexual gratification through a screen.
00:43:02I mean, it is...
00:43:03I can't remember who said it to me, but just for a second, think about how stupid the human
00:43:12brain is, and think about how strong our sex drive is, that looking at a seven inch across
00:43:19screen that I am not a part of, of someone else having sex with someone else, can confuse
00:43:26my brain into thinking, "Some sex is going to happen here."
00:43:31That is how strong this drive is, that a two-dimensional, exclusively video and audio representation
00:43:40on a teeny tiny little screen popped up against a pillow is enough to convince your brain
00:43:47there might be some sex on, you should respond appropriately.
00:43:51It is mad.
00:43:52Also think about what it's doing to kids.
00:43:54This is one of the rabbit holes I've been going down more recently, and thinking about
00:43:57how has this affected Gen Z's development.
00:43:59They're exposed to porn at such a young age.
00:44:01But in terms of the difference between, say, what's going on in the brain, it's the same
00:44:06brain network, basically regions that are involved in physiological arousal, penile tumescence,
00:44:12visual regions.
00:44:15This was my dissertation, actually.
00:44:16It takes me back now.
00:44:17I'm trying to remember what other parts of the motor...
00:44:18You did a dissertation on penile tumescence?
00:44:21No, no.
00:44:22Not just penile tumescence.
00:44:23But it was on basically male sexuality and sexual arousal, and I looked at the structure
00:44:28and function of the brain.
00:44:29I used four different types of brain imaging.
00:44:30It was a lot of fun.
00:44:31It was a very expensive study, but I was extremely blessed.
00:44:35Really fun for the men.
00:44:38And so basically, it's the same network.
00:44:41It's not activated as strongly, but it's very much the same regions, and that's why pornography
00:44:47is so compelling and why I think for people who, especially if that is your primary mode
00:44:53of sexual release, you very much become a preference or a stand-in.
00:44:58You're habituating.
00:44:59More than anything, it's just what do you do?
00:45:05Guys that tend to go to the same bar all the time, sit in the same seat, order the same
00:45:10coffee.
00:45:11And it just becomes a part of your daily routine, and there's this weird habituation effect,
00:45:17I think, with porn.
00:45:19Mary Harrington calls it the law of fapentropy, which is whatever you start out wanking to
00:45:22gets progressively more extreme over time.
00:45:25I like her work, but actually that's not exactly accurate.
00:45:29Tell me what is accurate.
00:45:30For guys who end up watching "extreme stuff," that's actually what they liked all along.
00:45:33It just took them a while to admit it to themselves.
00:45:36Oh, God, the algo wasn't delivering them what they needed until it took a bit of time to
00:45:40refine it.
00:45:41Because understandably men who have these unusual sexual preferences, they're a little bit more
00:45:49reluctant to say out loud.
00:45:52Even to themselves.
00:45:53Even to themselves.
00:45:54Oh, that's so interesting.
00:45:55When they're explaining to say their partner or their friends, if they're talking about
00:45:58this.
00:45:59That's so good.
00:46:00I love that.
00:46:01I mean, the law still works, but not for the reason that you think.
00:46:04It's not a progressive habituation to more extreme stuff.
00:46:06It's a progressive revealing to yourself of what you wanted.
00:46:09That's so cool.
00:46:11What about gooning?
00:46:12Let's talk about gooning.
00:46:13Oh boy.
00:46:14Yeah.
00:46:15I mean, you could spend your life masturbating watching porn if you want to.
00:46:18There's enough content out there for sure.
00:46:20So gooning, I'm sure your audience knows what this term is, but it's basically men who, predominantly
00:46:25men who like to masturbate to no end in sight.
00:46:28And basically my understanding, they might have multiple screens open for hours.
00:46:33They don't reach an orgasm.
00:46:35It's like edging, but for a longer period of time and they don't really have any conflict
00:46:40about it.
00:46:41They quite enjoy it.
00:46:42How's porn affected women?
00:46:45I think there are more women struggling with porn issues than people realize.
00:46:49Cause this is predominantly been an issue, like say porn quote addiction.
00:46:53Although, like you said, I don't believe porn is addictive.
00:46:56I think it's a poor coping mechanism for people who have anxiety and who procrastinate.
00:47:00That's really what it's been when I talk to men.
00:47:03Sedating, not addicting.
00:47:04Yeah.
00:47:05Well, because if you say you have anxiety or you lack assertiveness, it's a very easy way
00:47:11to distract yourself and not have to deal with the problems in your life.
00:47:14Which I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with this, because I think because
00:47:17it's pornography, it's related to sex.
00:47:19It's a lot more stigmatized.
00:47:20So I understand why people want to call it an addiction because there have been studies
00:47:24that claim that it's addiction, but they don't account for other confounding variables.
00:47:30So they don't ask about things like paraphilias, they don't, from what I've seen, they don't
00:47:33ask about anxiety.
00:47:34So you don't know when you're looking at these brain regions that are supposed to be different,
00:47:37that are correlated with addiction.
00:47:39You don't know if what you're seeing in the people with porn problems is due to addiction
00:47:42or is it due to the fact that they're anxious or the fact that they have these unusual sexual
00:47:46interests.
00:47:47So I think that research could be a little bit cleaner if it does happen that new studies
00:47:51come out showing this and I'm fully on board with that, but I'm just not really convinced
00:47:54because when you talk to guys with porn problems, almost always they have anxiety and this is
00:47:59a way for them to avoid talking to their spouse or their girlfriend.
00:48:01So what's different with women?
00:48:03Women I think it's the same thing.
00:48:04We don't know as much about women because this is an issue that I think is only really
00:48:08become more of a problem with the younger generation, maybe even millennial women, like younger millennial
00:48:13women with the accessibility of porn.
00:48:15But I think even, because it's even with studies when they're looking at say the effects of
00:48:19porn on kids, women have only really started to show more negative body image say or body
00:48:25comparison more recently because girls are being exposed to it now.
00:48:28Girls tend to watch porn later than boys and they tend to watch it maybe once or twice out
00:48:32of curiosity.
00:48:33But I do think with like Gen Z, they're being exposed to this even before their first sexual
00:48:37experience, before their first orgasm, they can't make sense of it.
00:48:40And I think that it can be integrated into their life a little bit more.
00:48:44So it's the same thing I think anxiety, usually for anyone with a porn issue, there's a history
00:48:48of some form of sexual trauma, unfortunately.
00:48:50So there it's a way that anyone with a porn issue, most people with a porn issue, there
00:48:55is some history of sexual trauma.
00:48:57Not everyone, but in my experience, many of them have had some issue with, yeah, either
00:49:03with abuse or being exposed to porn at a young age, either accidentally and that was like
00:49:08a traumatic thing.
00:49:09Like when I say trauma, I'm not, the way sometimes people use the word trauma nowadays is very
00:49:12flippant, right?
00:49:13They use it over the-
00:49:14You mean actual-
00:49:15Insignificant thing.
00:49:16No, yeah, I'm referring to something that is actually quite horrific and awful.
00:49:19Or they might've been shown it in the process of grooming.
00:49:22So what do you think's going on?
00:49:24Is it just disinhibition, dysregulation?
00:49:27Is it the same reason that people who maybe had a childhood trauma struggle with gambling
00:49:33or struggle with drugs or alcohol or their emotions rage?
00:49:38Is it just the same, but this, the particular pathway these people have found is porn or
00:49:43is there something specific about the mechanism that porn gives that helps them to sort of
00:49:48alchemize or try and alchemize whatever they went through?
00:49:52It could be partially biological thing because it's like a self-soothing thing.
00:49:55So especially for children, if they're not taught ways to self-regulate, they're looking
00:49:58for ways to feel good when they're stressed out or upset, right?
00:50:01So some people gravitate toward drugs and alcohol.
00:50:03Other people might gravitate toward porn.
00:50:05I think it depends on how old you are probably when you come across it initially, what your
00:50:10experience is when you see it, like is it a pleasurable thing?
00:50:14But I think for the men say, like when I was doing research, who had had these negative
00:50:17experiences in childhood, it was a way of revisiting it to try and make sense of it, I think.
00:50:22But yeah, I really strongly believe like sitting down with a competent therapist and working
00:50:28through that stuff could be very helpful for people.
00:50:30Better than porn.
00:50:31Yeah.
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00:51:39What do you think about the relationship between porn use and the type of sex that people are
00:51:45having?
00:51:46Is it influencing the type of sex?
00:51:47So in terms of say very extreme thing previously, okay, I would start with before the internet.
00:51:53So if, cause there's a concern about does porn make men more violent?
00:51:57Does porn make men entitled and with sex?
00:52:02Previously if a man grew up and had his first sexual experience prior to online porn, I would
00:52:06say porn is not the thing that made him.
00:52:09If he is say violent or likes to degrade his partners or treat them poorly, I wouldn't say
00:52:15that's porn.
00:52:16I would say that's due to the way he was raised.
00:52:18He's probably antisocial, probably has some dark triad personality going on there.
00:52:23Probably doesn't think very highly of women, has a lot of hostility toward women, but those
00:52:27views would have been formed prior to porn.
00:52:28So I don't think porn is the problem.
00:52:29I think he probably was interested in violent porn and violent sex because of other factors
00:52:36in terms of how he was raised potentially.
00:52:39Nowadays with the fact that the fact that kids are being exposed to this so young, I'm really
00:52:43concerned about how this is affecting their sexuality because we do see studies coming
00:52:47out showing that kids who are having problematic sexual behaviors, it's due to being sexualized
00:52:53by porn, like early exposure.
00:52:55This trend of sexual choking that I write about in sextinction, young women, Gen Z women in
00:53:00particular, it's almost ubiquitous.
00:53:03So I think that is being due to them being exposed to this at such a young age and believing
00:53:07that this is what they need to do in order to attract men or to be enticing in the bedroom.
00:53:12And I'll be very clear that you could die from doing this.
00:53:15So it's not safe.
00:53:16There's no safe way to do it.
00:53:18This was Louise Perry's thing that she was helping to prosecute guys that had killed their
00:53:24partners and then used whatever it is, the rough sex excuse thing, which, yeah, I mean,
00:53:31that's fucking horrific.
00:53:34There is a bit of research that I wanted to talk to you about, which I've never spoken
00:53:38about on the show before, you're probably familiar with.
00:53:41A new study interviewed 302 adults of those more women enjoyed aggression in porn, were
00:53:46aroused by portrayals of female pain and reported wanting to see more aggression.
00:53:51And this is a bar chart, which shows women saying double the number of women saying aggression
00:53:59is arousing, triple the number of men, the triple number of women to men hard aggression
00:54:06is arousing, maybe four times the number of women to men would like more aggression in
00:54:11mainstream pornography, maybe 30% more actively seek aggression.
00:54:16The only thing that men are stronger on is aroused by women showing pleasure in response
00:54:20to aggression.
00:54:21And that's maybe 5% aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression, nearly double
00:54:29women to men.
00:54:31This seems to be pretty, this is a small sample size, 302 people, but this is, you can dig
00:54:37deeper and find out kind of the same pattern and it's something that I remember I once read
00:54:42a feminist who wrote about this and she said something along the lines of it's an uncomfortable
00:54:47fact for most modern feminists that women seem to prefer aggressive porn than men do.
00:54:54And misogynists use this as an excuse that like she wanted it made type thing.
00:55:01That to me does suggest that the picture is a little bit more complex than just guys have
00:55:09learned it in porn and now they're doing it to women and women feel the need to perform
00:55:15up to it.
00:55:16That no one's pushing women in that way.
00:55:20It's not the only study of that kind.
00:55:21No, I agree.
00:55:23I'm not one of those people that think that this is entirely like men pushing it on women
00:55:27and women have no choice but to do it.
00:55:28I do think there are some women out there that's a sexual masochism.
00:55:32So it's a sexual arousal at the idea of being hurt, humiliated, degraded by your partner.
00:55:37So that's the only paraphilia that you actually find in women typically.
00:55:40So usually women-
00:55:41Oh, that's so, sorry.
00:55:42That's so interesting.
00:55:43The only paraphilia that's typical in women, paraphilia being odd sexual proclivities is-
00:55:49Masochism.
00:55:50If you do-
00:55:51Self-masochism.
00:55:52Yeah.
00:55:53Masochism is when it's happening to you.
00:55:56Sadism is when you're doing it to someone else.
00:55:58Cool, cool.
00:55:59How much sadism is there in women?
00:56:01So when you do see other paraphilias like sadism, it usually is correlated with personality
00:56:06disorders.
00:56:07Right.
00:56:08There has to be dark triad.
00:56:09There has to be, yeah.
00:56:10Okay.
00:56:11Anyway, so the masochism for women.
00:56:13Yeah.
00:56:14So evolutionarily it could be because women, well, women's bodies, have you heard of the
00:56:20study where women basically are aroused to any type of porn?
00:56:23So it's whether it's-
00:56:24Yes.
00:56:25They're more sexually fluid.
00:56:26Girl on girl, guy on guy, girl on guy.
00:56:27Well, this is why-
00:56:28This is why-
00:56:29Just to be clear, animals having sex, not people having sex with animals.
00:56:33I don't agree with these, Daphne.
00:56:34What's that fucking hockey players, the two hockey players boning.
00:56:39What's that thing?
00:56:40It's that series, Hot Ones, not Hot Ones.
00:56:43That's the wing thing.
00:56:44What the fuck is it?
00:56:45Two hockey players?
00:56:46Two hockey players.
00:56:47It's taken the world by storm.
00:56:49He did rivalry.
00:56:50Fucking Hot Ones.
00:56:51I don't know.
00:56:52He did rivalry.
00:56:53I knew I got there.
00:56:54You're Canadian.
00:56:55You're supposed to know.
00:56:56I don't actually watch porn so that might be why I've never heard of it.
00:56:59He Did Rivalry was a book about these two hockey players on opposing teams and then they fuck
00:57:05each other.
00:57:06Why are you reading this?
00:57:07I'm not reading it.
00:57:08This is a big TV show.
00:57:09I didn't see- I've never seen anything like this.
00:57:13I'm the straightest man in the room.
00:57:17This has broken the internet and you should absolutely have a look at this.
00:57:23I'll do some Googling once I leave the studio.
00:57:24You'd love to look at this.
00:57:25Okay.
00:57:26But it is basically revealing just how flexible women's sexualities are.
00:57:32Yeah.
00:57:33That these two guys, there was a book, Book Super Popular, then pivoted over into this
00:57:36TV series and the TV series is fucking ripped.
00:57:39It's like a Brokeback Mountain on ice, right?
00:57:43But was it actually pornographic or was it just like hinted?
00:57:46Asking the wrong guy.
00:57:47I'm sorry.
00:57:48Okay.
00:57:49I didn't get- I mean, I have to assume that there was either implied or like pretty close
00:57:53to like raunchy shit happening on the screen.
00:57:57Okay.
00:57:58Anyway, that you're quite right.
00:58:01Why is it that you think that women's sexuality is more fluid than men's?
00:58:05Well, the unfortunate reason is rape.
00:58:07So in the past, right, evolutionarily speaking, it protects the woman's body if she can become
00:58:11aroused regardless of what is happening.
00:58:13Which is why sometimes during sexual assault, women can still reach orgasm and then they
00:58:18feel lots of shame afterward because it's fucking horrific.
00:58:20They think, did I want that?
00:58:22Did I want this thing?
00:58:23Did I want that?
00:58:24Am I fucking awful?
00:58:25Am I traumatized?
00:58:27And now my body did a thing to me that I'm traumatized about as well.
00:58:31So brutal.
00:58:33Speaking to those findings though, I would be curious to know how they sample.
00:58:38Do you remember how they sampled for those women?
00:58:42Preferences related to aggression, pleasure, and pain in pornography among male and female
00:58:46interviewees.
00:58:47I've got the- I can send you the journal article.
00:58:50But certainly, even if we don't look at aggression is arousing, heart aggression is arousing,
00:58:56would like more aggression in mainstream pornography actively seek aggression, aroused by women
00:59:00showing pain in response to aggression?
00:59:02Just look at the romantic genre.
00:59:04Well, evolutionarily speaking, in terms of masochism, it would benefit women to show a-
00:59:12Capacity to endure pain?
00:59:13Yeah, or I don't want to say subjugation, but it evokes caretaking behaviors for men, right?
00:59:19If they see that a woman is in need of help or support.
00:59:25I suppose so.
00:59:27To a degree, but there's also a kind of resilience in masochism, right?
00:59:30That I can withstand it.
00:59:32There's almost a anti-fragility, not a fragility.
00:59:36That goes back to the trauma that I talked about in Sexstinction.
00:59:39And the- it's in the porn chapter about how many individuals who are into BDSM and kink
00:59:45actually do have a history, especially of physical abuse in childhood.
00:59:48Well, I imagine that made you very popular.
00:59:52It's still happening now.
00:59:53People are like-
00:59:54Because you were a sex positive-
00:59:55Oh, yeah.
00:59:56Right?
00:59:57Research writer person, right?
00:59:58Yeah.
00:59:59I was a columnist for a well-known men's magazine with nude women in it.
01:00:02And writing this book, I was so grateful to have the chance to sit down and really question
01:00:05a lot of the beliefs I had.
01:00:07And I went through my own data that I collected when I was still in sex research and I found
01:00:10the same thing.
01:00:11And I was amazed.
01:00:12I thought-
01:00:13What do you mean?
01:00:14You went through the data and what did you find?
01:00:15Well, I found that interest in BDSM and kink is more- is correlated with severe physical
01:00:22abuse in childhood.
01:00:23And this is even more so the case for men who are into BDSM and kink as compared to men who
01:00:30are community controls, obviously.
01:00:33Men who have porn problems who are not into BDSM or kink.
01:00:36And also more so the case than men who are convicted of child sex crimes.
01:00:41So there's something with physical abuse.
01:00:43Wow.
01:00:44BDSM and kink.
01:00:45Is a better predictor of male childhood abuse, trauma-
01:00:51Female too.
01:00:52But then the pedophilia is-
01:00:54Victimization.
01:00:55Yeah.
01:00:56Well, convicted sex offenses or pornography.
01:01:00So we don't know how many of those are unreported and stuff like that.
01:01:03Right.
01:01:04But also there are times when men will abuse children and not necessarily be pedophile.
01:01:07That's like fine, you know, very fine details.
01:01:09But overall, yeah.
01:01:10Wow.
01:01:11Yeah.
01:01:12Child sex crimes.
01:01:13Is that what BDSM and kink is doing for people?
01:01:17It's really sad.
01:01:18I want to be clear.
01:01:19I'm not saying this to make judgment about people or to try and shame them.
01:01:22I really hope in bringing awareness to this because BDSM is so commonplace in society,
01:01:27right?
01:01:28It's so normalized almost.
01:01:29It's almost seemed like there is a variation, I think, in terms of people who might partake
01:01:33in sexual activity that is like playful or passionate, right, versus wanting to strangle
01:01:39your partner, wanting to really hurt them, wanting to humiliate them.
01:01:43Or if you enjoy those behaviors done to you, especially for women because physical harm,
01:01:49it wouldn't really make sense for women or men, but why would physical harm be correlated
01:01:53with orgasm?
01:01:54Right.
01:01:55If you can potentially become pregnant from this act, why would it be beneficial to you
01:01:58and your offspring to find physical pain and harm?
01:02:01What do you think?
01:02:02Arousing.
01:02:03Yeah.
01:02:04Why?
01:02:05Why?
01:02:06Because something went wrong with the system.
01:02:07And it's getting wires crossed.
01:02:08Yeah.
01:02:09And that's why I bring attention to this because so many people, I sense, enjoy these things,
01:02:14but don't really know why or they think it's something that they're something, it's something
01:02:17they take pride in.
01:02:18They're using.
01:02:19Maybe it's something that you should look a little more deeply into.
01:02:23They're using the sexual preferences as a way to work through something that maybe should
01:02:30be done with a therapist.
01:02:31Yeah.
01:02:32Interesting.
01:02:33I remember I was talking to a researcher and they were telling me about how this, maybe
01:02:41not uncontacted tribe, but this relatively uncontacted tribe, one of the rites of passage
01:02:49that they had for women was that men would get reeds, thick reeds and sticks, whippy sticks,
01:02:59and they would stand there and they would whip the women across their backs.
01:03:02Every woman in the tribe had huge scars everywhere across their backs.
01:03:08And the goal of the women was to be able to stand there and not flinch, not make noise,
01:03:12not cry, not whimper, not yell, not do anything.
01:03:15And this was supposed to be a presentation of their capacity to endure what would become
01:03:22giving birth, child rearing.
01:03:25And that, when you were talking about, it might engender sympathy from men, which I can completely
01:03:32see, just the power dynamic, subjugation, all of that, that does make sense.
01:03:39Allow me to come and hold you.
01:03:40But if you're able to withstand pain, there's also a kind of resilience in that, which I
01:03:45think would almost work against it.
01:03:48So yeah, kind of interesting.
01:03:49I always think about that example when it comes to female behavior in kink.
01:03:57Is this maybe some kind of demonstration of my capacity, of the woman's capacity to endure
01:04:05hard things physically?
01:04:08Not like lift heavy things, right?
01:04:09That's the guy picking you up and putting you against the wall.
01:04:12That's the ability for him to physically dominate you.
01:04:14But the woman's ability to endure the pain might actually be maybe like a fertility cue
01:04:19of some kind, like my pain tolerance.
01:04:21I don't know.
01:04:22It could be.
01:04:23I could see- Real nascent idea.
01:04:24It's wet clay.
01:04:25All right.
01:04:26So I think that is something that is culturally enforced and it's like a rite of passage.
01:04:29But if you as a woman are intentionally putting yourself in those situations when you don't
01:04:33need to, there are plenty of guys out there who are, I mean, vanilla is seen as a negative
01:04:37thing.
01:04:38I don't think being vanilla is a bad thing.
01:04:39So there are plenty of vanilla guys out there who are not going to want to strangle you during
01:04:42sex and not going to want to degrade you during sex.
01:04:46So if you're intentionally putting yourself through that, even if it is a way to show how
01:04:49strong you are, why would you choose to do that?
01:04:51When you don't need to.
01:04:52When you don't need to.
01:04:53Romanticy.
01:04:54I just sat on the plane flying to St. Louis a couple of weeks ago and there was a lovely
01:05:02woman sat next to me and she had her iPad up and she was reading Court of Thorns and Roses.
01:05:07Now what is that?
01:05:08That is- More porn.
01:05:10That is one of the most popular romanticy books at the moment.
01:05:14You're familiar with romanticy?
01:05:16It's basically like erotica.
01:05:19It is- That's probably- That's a word that you would use.
01:05:24I respect the art form and also the fact that the fan base is fucking massive and I don't
01:05:28want to get lynched by that.
01:05:30No, no, no.
01:05:31It is story- It's female literacy porn wrapped in quite a lot of story.
01:05:41But there are sort of peak dirty moments.
01:05:43Our friend is tapping away and she didn't have her glasses on.
01:05:49The font size was quite large and I had a realization that chicks can basically watch porn on a plane.
01:05:58I guess so.
01:05:59They can basically watch their equivalent of porn on a plane and I'm looking at this.
01:06:05I'm trying not to move my head at all.
01:06:07I'm keeping my head dead straight.
01:06:09I'm going- And I spoke to some friends after it.
01:06:14I've not read the book.
01:06:15I didn't read enough to fully capture what the narrative arc was.
01:06:19But it might be a court of thorns and roses or one of the other books like that.
01:06:24The protagonist is a fairy prince or a fairy king who has the ability to transform himself
01:06:32into this like monstrous beast.
01:06:35And I think that in that sort of shows what it is that one of the sort of archetypal desires
01:06:43that women have this he is dangerous but not around me.
01:06:48And I think I was talking on the way in about that study with a couple of friends.
01:06:52I have a group of evolutionary psychology researchers in a WhatsApp chat and whenever I get confused
01:06:57by stuff I put in and they give me the answer.
01:06:59And Andrew Thomas from Union of Nottingham gave me a fucking fantastic answer for this
01:07:02one.
01:07:03It was the aggression is arousing et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:07:07I'd love to get your thoughts on this.
01:07:08He said what women think is I want a man who has the capability to be aggressive because
01:07:16protection, traction, dominance, all that stuff- High testosterone.
01:07:20But he'll never be aggressive with me.
01:07:22And it's a pattern misfiring of the sort of pattern detection which is well most guys that
01:07:31don't have the capacity to be aggressive don't have the regulation to be able to turn it off
01:07:36and create bright lines and contain it in that way.
01:07:42If you have a guy who is just someone bumps into you on the street or you get scared and
01:07:47he beats up all of the guys that are there.
01:07:50How many of them have gone through the full fucking samurai Keanu Reeves training and come
01:07:54out the other side and say hmm?
01:07:56That's not most guys that are great and dangerous physically, just dangerous physically everywhere.
01:08:09It's not compartmentalized.
01:08:13I definitely agree.
01:08:14So that's the allure of I suppose the romance novel where you could have the duality there
01:08:18that doesn't- Fairy King who can become the beast but he's
01:08:21never going to be the beast with you.
01:08:23Yeah, interesting.
01:08:25So we have basically the most sexually permissive culture in history that is also having the
01:08:30least amount of sex.
01:08:31Yeah, which is wild.
01:08:34It's crazy when you think about like I was thinking about social media and even something
01:08:37as subtle as that like everyone's on social media but I do think it even that is changing
01:08:41the way that people view potential partners how they view their own partners.
01:08:46How so?
01:08:47Study that I cited in Sextinction showing that roughly one in 10 men actually loses interest
01:08:52in having sex with his own partner after looking at influencers and that women also feel less
01:08:57sexually desirable after being on social media.
01:09:00One in 10 men lose interest for a brief window of time?
01:09:06They didn't specify.
01:09:08So they're less interested in having real sex with their partner when they've been looking
01:09:15at influences on the internet.
01:09:18So I do remember at uni, this is so fucking bad.
01:09:21That was an English study too actually.
01:09:23Good.
01:09:24It was probably the people that I used to employ, it was probably the lads that used to work
01:09:28for me.
01:09:29I do remember there was two guys that were going to go on first dates with these two chicks
01:09:37two nights in a row.
01:09:38On the first one, he turned up and he ended up going back with her and having sex but he
01:09:44said she looked nothing like her Instagram.
01:09:46It was gutting.
01:09:47She was so hot on the Instagram, kind of like a catfish type thing and he had this joke about
01:09:52he wondered if he could have just sellotaped her Instagram to a forehead so he could have
01:09:55looked at that.
01:09:57And then the next night, the guy went out on one and she was really lovely and great.
01:10:04And then I don't think they'd slept with each other that night.
01:10:07And he came back and looked at her Instagram and got turned off because she wasn't able
01:10:11to present herself in the marketplace of- That's a good thing, no?
01:10:16I said that.
01:10:17That's what I said.
01:10:18That's what I said.
01:10:19I was like, "Dude, you found a barn find.
01:10:21That's a diamond in the rough.
01:10:22You found somebody that's really fantastic, shows up, wonderful in person that the marketplace
01:10:28where most other people are going to be competing with you for her, she's just not- I don't know
01:10:38what it was.
01:10:39I didn't do my research."
01:10:41So what is it he didn't like about the fact that he can't send people to her profile to
01:10:45look at her?
01:10:46No, you just- I think that there was a- it wasn't even as deep as that.
01:10:49Sorry, it was significantly more deep than that.
01:10:52Not that he couldn't show off this girl that could potentially come as girlfriend or whatever
01:10:56to other people on Instagram.
01:10:59I think it- what I believed it to be was he was so conditioned to judging a woman's attractiveness
01:11:10through her social media profile, and especially given that it's the most extreme version of
01:11:15you and for men to write the most extreme wealth or whatever, that he got the ick by her having
01:11:25a bad Instagram account, ickstagram.
01:11:32I don't know.
01:11:35The club promotion industry is a weird and wonderful place, but I'll never forget it.
01:11:38Two nights in a row, one guy saying, "I wish I could have strapped her Instagram to a forehead."
01:11:42And the next night, the guy going, "She was amazing, but I went and looked at her social
01:11:45media profile after we'd been on the date, and it was a turn-off, dude.
01:11:49I got the ick because her Instagram wasn't hot."
01:11:51So he wants a hot Instagram lady who's just as hot in real life?
01:11:56Yes, I think so.
01:11:57Look, these guys were 19.
01:12:00They had no prefrontal cortex.
01:12:01I don't even think that that's that uncommon, though.
01:12:03I think it's that social media has done something like that more subtly, though, to the general
01:12:08population.
01:12:09You think?
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01:13:07So guys are less likely to want to have sex after they looked at influencers, and girls
01:13:17are less likely to feel attractive?
01:13:20Yeah.
01:13:21They feel less attractive.
01:13:22Okay, so it's a comparison game.
01:13:23Yeah.
01:13:24Right.
01:13:25Why?
01:13:26What do you think's going on?
01:13:27What's the mechanism?
01:13:28Well, I wrote a chapter about plastic surgery, and when you look at this trend of, especially
01:13:32really young, in some cases, girls getting procedures done, I do think social media is
01:13:37done something to make them feel that they need to do this to compete and to get a partner
01:13:42or to at least be found attractive, and there has to be something with just constantly being
01:13:46inundated with these images on social media.
01:13:49They have found in, say, adolescent girls that girls who are less popular or girls who tend
01:13:54to do upward comparisons or tend to compare themselves to, say, more attractive women or
01:13:59more popular girls tend to fall prey to this a little bit more.
01:14:03In an attempt to try and clamber up this felt imbalance of a hierarchy that they're comparing
01:14:09themselves to.
01:14:10Okay.
01:14:11Talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time.
01:14:14We've seen increases in it.
01:14:16The types changed.
01:14:18What's the context of people getting different looks?
01:14:21Kardashians did the fucking BBL for a while.
01:14:24Is that still in?
01:14:25Now it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women.
01:14:28So they are actually, boob jobs are very popular among that cohort.
01:14:33Okay.
01:14:34I do think that's influenced by pornography.
01:14:35Also, labiaplasty.
01:14:36I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women, very many young
01:14:41women feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done,
01:14:46which is also influenced from porn.
01:14:48And it, I mean, it's just crazy to me.
01:14:50It makes me wonder, is that why people are not interested in having sex?
01:14:52Same with guys.
01:14:53Guys are getting filler injections into their penis for even sexting purposes.
01:14:57Like they just want to look better.
01:15:00George, my housemate, used to make this joke every time that we're on a plane.
01:15:07It was the same, you know, someone it's kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad
01:15:11and you know those teeny tiny 175 mil cans of Diet Coke.
01:15:16Yeah.
01:15:17He would always say, it's like, I keep a hold of one of those and I go back and I take a
01:15:20dick pic with it in the background.
01:15:21So it would make it look, you know, it's like, Oh, that's a 330 or a 355 mil pan, but I've
01:15:26kept the, I've kept the airplane mini and that's, you know, comparatively.
01:15:29I should be doing that instead of getting the filler in their penis.
01:15:32I agree.
01:15:33I agree.
01:15:34Make Diet Coke, mini Diet Coke's great again.
01:15:37So yeah, I mean the labiaplasty in the penis stuff, it seems to be obvious that it would
01:15:43be influenced by porn.
01:15:44But even things like, I see like news reports of women under 30 getting facelifts and getting
01:15:50upper eyelifts, right?
01:15:51And I, in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive
01:15:56work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify.
01:16:00What do you think they're trying to do?
01:16:02Well, I think if you look at say when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid twenties.
01:16:07So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid twenties.
01:16:10So if you're older than that, you're going to try and look younger.
01:16:12And if you're younger, you're trying to look older.
01:16:15And so you're going to use, you're going to choose the most fertile in the mid twenties,
01:16:19early to mid twenties.
01:16:20Right.
01:16:21Yeah.
01:16:22So I found out some really fucking uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile.
01:16:29Really young.
01:16:30Yeah.
01:16:31It's really young.
01:16:32Like illegal in some states young.
01:16:34And you go, really?
01:16:37Which is just, I don't know.
01:16:38We talk about women's biological clocks.
01:16:41We never really think about, there's so much sperm, right?
01:16:46Speak for yourself.
01:16:47But there's so much sperm and you only need one window though.
01:16:50They also have a larger, like men can still impregnate someone.
01:16:52And later on in life, there are higher rates of chromosomal abnormalities, but the potential
01:16:57whereas for women, it's, it's a little bit more unforgiving.
01:17:01But anyway, so you think, well, I've seen what is buccal, buccal fat, buccal fat removal.
01:17:09Yeah.
01:17:10The cheek, cheek fat thing.
01:17:11Yeah.
01:17:12What's that trying to achieve?
01:17:13Do you think?
01:17:14To look older because you're removing the baby fat essentially in your face.
01:17:17But what happens is as you get older, your face naturally loses fat, right?
01:17:21And so you're going to look more gaunt and you might potentially need to use filler too.
01:17:27Oh, so I used, I got fat removal before I was 24 and then after I was 28, I had to use
01:17:36filler to replace where I got rid of the fat, right?
01:17:40Yeah.
01:17:41I mean, I, so I want to be clear, like I don't want to come down on men and women if they
01:17:43choose to get these procedures because I understand, especially if you have a public facing job,
01:17:48there's a lot of pressure to keep your looks up and to look young.
01:17:51But my concern is more so when it's really young people or I would say even for men who
01:17:56are doing this, you really don't need to.
01:17:58It is brutal.
01:17:59I mean, some of the young girls, it's supposed to be young girls that I've seen videos of
01:18:06on TikTok, there's like 22, 23 year old chicks and they look mid thirties or forties with
01:18:13all of this work that's been done.
01:18:15And I was thinking, I was having a conversation last night about how the sort of ideal female
01:18:24form has changed, even with sort of relatively extreme cosmetic procedures.
01:18:29So Geordie Shore, which was the British equivalent of Jersey Shore, that back in the day was a
01:18:35lot about fake tan.
01:18:38It was big hair.
01:18:39It was almost pin-uppy in a way there was, it was tight suits too, weren't they?
01:18:44That's because of, that's something else.
01:18:46But yes, that was sort of part- Chavs, I learned what chavs was when I was living.
01:18:50Chavs, exactly.
01:18:51Well, look, be careful, right?
01:18:52Those were- Is that offensive?
01:18:53No, those were my customers.
01:18:54It's kind of like calling someone a hick.
01:18:55Oh, okay.
01:18:56I mean it with love.
01:18:57Me too.
01:18:58But those were my customers for a very long time.
01:19:02It was fake tan.
01:19:03It was big boobs, maybe augmented, maybe not- Brows too, very specific eyebrows.
01:19:10Very painted on, sort of aggressive brows.
01:19:12Big hair, tight dress, short dress, right?
01:19:16I love that.
01:19:17Just to be clear, I'm not making fun of it.
01:19:19That aesthetic?
01:19:20Strong aesthetic.
01:19:21Great early 2010s aesthetic.
01:19:22And the guy's equivalent, I think up until probably about five years ago, we were a little
01:19:29bit delayed on the guy's thing, was sort of big muscles, not so concerned with height,
01:19:35fake tan, plunging v-neck neckline, tight jeans, expensive watch thing.
01:19:44Jeans?
01:19:45Yeah, maybe.
01:19:46So what I was trying to do with this conversation I was having last night, which was so interesting,
01:19:50I was trying to work out what was being signaled then and what's being signaled now.
01:19:57And I think what's being signaled now is a more extreme version of that by both men and
01:20:07women.
01:20:08So the male thing, it's all about formidable now.
01:20:11It's the over-exaggerated handsome Squidward cheekbones and the jawline.
01:20:17It's the height, the height.
01:20:20But it's a lot less to do with, I'm not really seeing anyone talk about tan all that much.
01:20:25But even seeing if you look at- Dark brows are really big for guys.
01:20:28The most popular looks maxes aren't that concerned with muscularity, extreme muscularity in the
01:20:34way that it would have been 10 years ago.
01:20:3510 years ago it would have just been get as wide and as muscular as possible.
01:20:39That's not quite the case now.
01:20:40And then with the women, both of them are basically caricatures of the most sexually dimorphic
01:20:46physical traits.
01:20:47Right?
01:20:48The Nigerian runaway, I think it's called, where the stag deer that's got antlers so
01:20:56big that he can't lift his head up and he dies.
01:20:58The peacock that's got such a ridiculous tail that he gets caught with the first second there's
01:21:01a predator around.
01:21:02But he did some great boning on the way out.
01:21:06That seems to be what's happening with men and women now.
01:21:10It's just a more, the next evolution it's more extreme limb lengthening surgery, the brows,
01:21:15the cheekbones, the mandible surgery, all that stuff.
01:21:18For women especially, I think it can also be the equivalent of showing off an expensive
01:21:22handbag.
01:21:23So instead of saying, here's my designer bag, or here's my designer titties, or, you know,
01:21:27that my lips or whatever, like I have a man who will pay for my surgery and make me look
01:21:32like this.
01:21:33It's a good argument for why I've heard about why women have long nails and long hair.
01:21:39It's just fucking impractical.
01:21:42It is itself a status of wealth and luxury that not only can I maintain them, but I have
01:21:51a life that requires so little hard labor that this hair and these nails and this makeup.
01:21:57I mean, the female intra-sexual competition is just like fucking endlessly interesting.
01:22:02Like shoes and bags, exclusively intra-sexual.
01:22:07I do not know the difference between whatever you're wearing and something that was one-tenth
01:22:11the price and something that was a thousand times the price, I have no idea.
01:22:15But women do.
01:22:16Women know.
01:22:17And if you're in a relationship, it's basically a, my man is so invested in me that he spent
01:22:24however much money on this thing.
01:22:27So like, don't even think about going there.
01:22:30Which is why I also think that women tend to go a little bit overboard in some cases with
01:22:34the work done as a way to signal that they have the money and the resources or man that
01:22:38is paying for it, because usually when you think of plastic surgery, men don't like plastic
01:22:42surgery typically.
01:22:43Men, they don't like it in women because it masks their underlying health and fertility,
01:22:49right?
01:22:50So if a woman can turn back the clock in terms of aging, signs of aging, or appear more attractive
01:22:55than she naturally was, or maybe you don't mind so much, but from the conversations I've
01:22:59had with men, men tend to not really like plastic surgery.
01:23:01No, I agree.
01:23:02They prefer natural beauty.
01:23:03I agree.
01:23:04I saw this tweet after the Grammys that fucking ripped.
01:23:09And it was, men love Sydney Sweeney and hate Sabrina Carpenter.
01:23:15Women love Sabrina Carpenter and hate Sydney Sweeney.
01:23:18And the explanation that I saw, I was so fascinated by it, I thought it was, and it seems to be
01:23:23pretty accurate.
01:23:24I don't know that many guys that are like, I love Sabrina Carpenter.
01:23:27And I don't know that many women that love Sydney Sweeney.
01:23:30That's funny.
01:23:31I've seen this.
01:23:32I mean, I think they're both pretty, so I don't know.
01:23:33I guess I'm like one of the odd ones.
01:23:34I need to be more judgmental.
01:23:37The best explanation that I saw was that Sabrina Carpenter, her physical presentation is basically
01:23:45gay and female coded.
01:23:48And Sydney Sweeney is sort of low maintenance, natural male coded beauty.
01:23:57Less sort of curated in that sort of a way and that low maintenance thing sort of seems
01:24:02to come across.
01:24:03But I think the reliable signal of fitness cue that's being sort of hidden by lots of
01:24:15plastic surgery is so true.
01:24:16And I get the sense, I get the sense that the Lux Maxing community for men is doing the
01:24:22same thing.
01:24:23I was going to ask you about that.
01:24:24Like what are your views?
01:24:25Because when I write about this, I get a lot of young men who get upset at me and say like,
01:24:29you don't understand, right?
01:24:30Well, this is the time for the fucking patriarchy to step in, writing as a woman.
01:24:36Sit down.
01:24:37Let me explain to you.
01:24:39What do I think?
01:24:40I think I have a really fucking, I think this is an interesting thing.
01:24:45My advice to guys is just work away, get rich, honestly.
01:24:50Get rich.
01:24:51What is it?
01:24:52Don't worry about all the taking the hormones to make your bone structure.
01:24:54I would say get rich, get popular.
01:24:58Lux are important, but you can make some pretty good changes just by becoming more diligent.
01:25:04What I would say about the Lux Maxing thing is what guys seem to be optimizing for is
01:25:11formidability.
01:25:12So they're optimizing for the sort of things that other men respect, not that women are
01:25:15attracted to.
01:25:17So other men would, if you look at most guys that have Lux Maxed and put them in front of
01:25:23women, I wonder whether women would find them more attractive.
01:25:26So it's intersexual competition again.
01:25:28Or whether men would find them more formidable.
01:25:29I think that more men would find them more formidable than more women would find them
01:25:33more attractive.
01:25:34Because most women are not looking for their guys to be hyper hyper masculine like that.
01:25:38There's even some evidence to suggest that women prefer a slightly feminized face with
01:25:43a masculinized body.
01:25:45And not super jacked either.
01:25:46No, not super jacked.
01:25:48But they want average face or sometimes actually slightly feminized face with masculinized body.
01:25:55So all of the guys are just pushing toward heavier brow, deeper jaw, stronger cheekbones.
01:26:02But you know the David Putz study that he did about when he brought people into the lab and
01:26:07got women to rate attractiveness and men to rate formidability?
01:26:11Remind me.
01:26:12So fucking good.
01:26:13So photos of guys shown to women and men.
01:26:16Women were asked to rank how attractive do you think this man is?
01:26:19Men were asked to rank how likely do you think it is that you could beat this other man in
01:26:23a fight?
01:26:24One year later, they brought the men from the photos into the lab and asked what their sexual
01:26:31success had been over the last year.
01:26:33And the female ratings of attractiveness had basically zero predictive power for the sexual
01:26:38success.
01:26:39But the male ratings of formidability were very predictive.
01:26:43So even though what I think is happening at level one, this is like the Epstein files,
01:26:48at level one, where he didn't kill himself, is Lux Max's are optimizing for formidability
01:26:59because they're disregarding women.
01:27:01And it's intra-sexual competition because I just want to mock other guys.
01:27:04I just want to be better than other men.
01:27:07Level two, Epstein's still alive and playing Fortnite in Israel, is actually by pursuing
01:27:13formidability, they may end up closing their eyes and throwing the dart at the dartboard
01:27:17and hitting the bullseye of women actually finding them more attractive than if they tried
01:27:22to pursue attractiveness as the main outcome.
01:27:24But this is, again, this is working theory at the moment.
01:27:28Yeah, I mean, because I could see that in terms of tattoos, there have been studies to show
01:27:31that men, when they get tattoos, it actually is more so about scaring off their male rivals
01:27:38because women don't, some women like tattoos, but not all do, and some women actually are
01:27:42turned off by tattoos.
01:27:43So it's more, again, like you said, of scaring off and beating your rivals than directly
01:27:48attracting women.
01:27:49But I also wonder if it's that these men are projecting onto women their preferences.
01:27:54So men care more about looks and, you know, youth.
01:27:58So I wonder if when you look at, say, marriage or marital satisfaction, men say, whether men
01:28:05find their wives attractive has a greater correlation with their marital satisfaction than whether
01:28:11women find their husbands attractive.
01:28:13So I wonder if these young guys are projecting onto women thinking that women care so much
01:28:18about looks when it's actually, that's what they care about in their partners.
01:28:21Oh, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading using their own assessment criteria and saying,
01:28:29you must think the way that I think, I'll do more beautification.
01:28:32Well, Mac and Murphy's got this great idea where he talks about how the increases in male
01:28:38beautification are to try and offset this inability to get hypogamy to work.
01:28:44That men have realized that because they can't win socioeconomically, they might have to turn
01:28:50about this.
01:28:51That's crazy.
01:28:52Yeah.
01:28:53The vanity mirror round in an attempt to out beautify the socioeconomic lack.
01:28:59Yeah.
01:29:00Especially when they're young and they're just starting out in their career and they're thinking,
01:29:02okay, how do I attract women?
01:29:03I don't have the money yet.
01:29:04Don't have the resources.
01:29:05Well, I can just get really hot.
01:29:09There's worse theories.
01:29:10There are worse theories.
01:29:12What about the effects of sexlessness in marriage?
01:29:14Well, I can tell you, when I was in research, I would interview some men who had not had
01:29:20sex in like decades, which is why.
01:29:22In a marriage?
01:29:23Yeah, in a marriage.
01:29:24Married men who'd not had sex in decades.
01:29:25Yeah.
01:29:26I mean, at that point, there's a lot of cheating.
01:29:27Not that that's justified, but I think it can be very damaging to a relationship if you're
01:29:32not married to be sexless, because that's a way to bond with your partner, especially
01:29:36for men.
01:29:37They tend to use sex as a way to have intimacy, like emotional closeness with their partner.
01:29:40One of the few places that they can.
01:29:42Yeah.
01:29:43Yeah.
01:29:44So, I feel for people out there, you know, marriage, I'm assuming marriage is very difficult
01:29:50as is, and I'm not sure what would be useful for your audience, like how to overcome that.
01:29:58Put your phones away, number one.
01:30:00It's crazy, some of the stats I was reading in terms of people using social media during
01:30:05sex right after sex.
01:30:07Fuck off.
01:30:08Yeah, that same study during, I can't remember the status above my head.
01:30:11How?
01:30:12It's in sextinction that I cited it, but it's, I don't know.
01:30:15I was trying to figure that out myself.
01:30:16I'm thinking, how do you excuse yourself to go post something and then come back?
01:30:19You can't be posting.
01:30:21It can't be posting.
01:30:22There's no way that you can do that.
01:30:23I could see scrolling at best.
01:30:24Or if you go to the bathroom, maybe.
01:30:26During sex.
01:30:28Or even right after, that's pretty bad.
01:30:31It's the during that gets me.
01:30:32Maybe it's my friend strapping their Instagram through the forehead.
01:30:35Maybe it's just that.
01:30:36I don't know.
01:30:37Yeah.
01:30:38I got, I found this.
01:30:39Oh, but that's, sorry, I was going to say with the, there's another study that showed the
01:30:43more the people are on their phones and ignoring their partners, they have less sex, which makes
01:30:46sense.
01:30:47Is that called flubbing?
01:30:48Flubbing?
01:30:49Flubbing.
01:30:50Flubbing.
01:30:51You should, they need to rename that.
01:30:52It's a stupid name.
01:30:53Yeah.
01:30:54Arthur Brooks and Matthew Hussey taught me some interesting stuff around this about sort
01:31:03of revitalize, and James Sexton as well, taught me some interesting stuff.
01:31:06Arthur's was more neuro scientifically backed.
01:31:10That one of the problems you have in long-term marriages is that safety turns into consistency,
01:31:22turns into comfort, turns into laziness.
01:31:25And that, that we just go through the same dance.
01:31:27We do it on a Tuesday and it happens in this way.
01:31:31And I don't, there's no, there's no distance.
01:31:33There's no intrigue.
01:31:34Where'd you go today?
01:31:35Are you wearing something new?
01:31:37This is a little bit different.
01:31:38I don't, there's no push and pull, right?
01:31:42And a lot of the chemistry and the reason that I think people are so enlivened and excited
01:31:48at the start of a relationship is there's so much to discover about someone when you feel
01:31:51like there's nothing left to discover, sort of, where am I injecting my fantasy into literally?
01:31:57And what, bringing that back online, Arthur had a pretty interesting sort of few step process,
01:32:05which was to basically flirt.
01:32:07It's like to flirt with your partner throughout the day and to treat them as if they're an
01:32:11object of desire, especially if you're male to female.
01:32:14This is something that Esther Perel, I got wrong.
01:32:18I should have pushed back against when she came on the show and she said something to
01:32:22the effect of what woman has been aroused because she's seen her partner aroused.
01:32:27I'm like, I understand what you mean at sort of the first level, but almost every definition
01:32:32of female arousal includes my partner desires me.
01:32:38Like being desired by their partner.
01:32:40Yeah.
01:32:41And that's the most non-fungible, difficult to fake signal that I desire you is me being
01:32:51aroused.
01:32:52So you go, okay, I think that you probably can do, the unmarried fucking 38 year old guy
01:33:00telling people who are married how to re-invite live in their sex life.
01:33:05I think that there is good legs to, like make flirting great again.
01:33:09That's my, that's my argument.
01:33:12Or I was going to say, if your lady is down for it, to try on a wig.
01:33:16Try on a wig?
01:33:17Me?
01:33:18No, no.
01:33:19Well, I mean, you can, if you want to.
01:33:22To be someone different?
01:33:23Role-play?
01:33:24Yeah.
01:33:25If she is willing to put on a wig, because then it completely changes the way she looks.
01:33:28If you're looking for sexual novelty, then do something nice for her.
01:33:31Get her flowers, obviously.
01:33:33And then get her a wig?
01:33:34If she wants to wear one, yeah.
01:33:36That's interesting.
01:33:37I remember reading, um, Roy Baumeister is doing a fucking awesome series on sexual novelty
01:33:44at the moment.
01:33:45Okay.
01:33:46On his sub stack.
01:33:47It's, it is a travesty.
01:33:48Everyone needs to go and read Roy Baumeister's sub stack, because it's got three likes and
01:33:52they're all me and my friends.
01:33:53And he's the goat, right?
01:33:54He's the guy that did the original marshmallow test.
01:33:57And he's writing about sexual novelty at the moment.
01:33:59And he finds this story of a client that was working with a therapist.
01:34:08And she was saying that, I think this was a long, quite a while ago, um, and she was saying
01:34:14that her husband was struggling to be excited in the bedroom.
01:34:20And this was a long time before, before porn.
01:34:23And the, after a while, you know, weeks and months of this lady coming in, and this was
01:34:27the repeating challenge that was being had.
01:34:29Maybe he's just a bit old and maybe he's whatever.
01:34:32And the, uh, the therapist asked, have you sort of, what is it that you're doing to him?
01:34:40And the client said, sort of explained, and it was, it wasn't particularly intimate.
01:34:46He said, have you considered using your hand?
01:34:48She said, like my, my hand on him?
01:34:53No.
01:34:54And she said, okay, why, why don't you just try and do that?
01:34:59And sure enough went back and this had, you know, the most amazing effect because sexual
01:35:05novelty had been so constrained to one thing for fucking five decades, that simply the act,
01:35:12like second base was enough to blow this guy's mind.
01:35:17This dude in his sixties or seventies, because that was something that he'd never got to experience.
01:35:21I just thought that was so interesting to, you know, whether it's the, um, Coolidge effect
01:35:27or some sort of equivalent, like refractory, what novelty looks like.
01:35:31Um, but this series from Baumeister is fucking sick.
01:35:37He basically makes the, makes the argument that in a relationship, if this is the one,
01:35:43you should titrate the, uh, sort of sexual access and sexual novelty as slowly as possible.
01:35:51And it's going to suck, I mean, it's suck for the women as well, I actually won't suck
01:35:56for a long time.
01:35:57Um, but I, I really think that there's something to it.
01:36:01I really think that he's fucking, I think he's fucking nailed it and he's just, all he's doing
01:36:05is respecting the neurobiology, especially of men.
01:36:07He's going to do a separate treatment on women.
01:36:08He's only done it on men so far, but basically if you're like, this is the chick for me.
01:36:14Okay, move, move as slowly as possible through the different stages of doing things because
01:36:23there is only so much sexual novelty that you can have.
01:36:26Once you've gone to the end or close to the end, it doesn't feel as exciting to sort of
01:36:32skip back.
01:36:33If you know how the story ends, you know how the book, the series finishes, reading the
01:36:37middle bit is just less enlivening.
01:36:39Yeah, sure.
01:36:40I'll give it another read, but it's nowhere near as, so he's yeah, turn one page a week
01:36:43type thing and you know, stretch this book out over a decade or so.
01:36:47I thought it was really interesting.
01:36:48Yeah.
01:36:49I mean, I think that speaks to also why casual sex is not a good thing.
01:36:52I think it's better for both sexes to be less promiscuous, but definitely if you, well, if
01:36:57you have sex on the first date, a man's going to put you in the short term bucket.
01:37:01But even if not, I would say even if you have sex too soon and you're dating somebody at
01:37:06some level there, like you said, it's like shortening that book.
01:37:09How, how does it feel to believe this and say this as a former sexologist writer?
01:37:17I'm probably alienating like 90% of the field.
01:37:20I mean, there are certain things when you are in the field, I should say, I have many friends
01:37:24and colleagues who do amazing work and who are very unbiased.
01:37:27They're not politically motivated.
01:37:28You know, they just do their research.
01:37:31And I respect that it, what my issue is when people are quote sex positive and they're pushing
01:37:35these narratives that are unhelpful and that I think are doing a disservice to our society.
01:37:41Is it not empowerment?
01:37:42And it's leading us to be sexless ultimately.
01:37:45No, I don't think it's empowerment.
01:37:46I think it's masked as empowering, but they're lies ultimately.
01:37:50And I find the fact that people get so upset by me challenging these ideas tells me that
01:37:54I'm onto something because why did they get so defensive?
01:37:57If what I'm saying is completely nonsense, why did they feel the need to push back so
01:38:00badly?
01:38:01But yeah, this book is full of radical ideas.
01:38:05Yeah, anti-sex positivity, thoughts that are not allowed, I guess.
01:38:11But it was amazing for me to write because I felt I like to challenge myself and say,
01:38:16if there are thoughts or beliefs that you don't want to look at, you have to look at those
01:38:19and you have to ask yourself why you don't want to.
01:38:21And if you're afraid of alienating or upsetting people, that's not a reason to question.
01:38:25What about sex dolls?
01:38:26Would you learn?
01:38:27They're good?
01:38:28Are they bad?
01:38:29Hang on, did you design one?
01:38:32I made one in my likeness.
01:38:33I did.
01:38:34I was on the hunt to make one in my likeness.
01:38:36Was it for sale?
01:38:38I'm not answering that question.
01:38:41It was actually a lot of fun to go on that exploration.
01:38:44So in each chapter, I go into a little mini adventure, that's what I call them, where I
01:38:48go and I research the technology and try it out.
01:38:52And so I went and explored sex dolls and robots.
01:38:55And it's crazy what's out there.
01:38:57It's very, very realistic, I have to say.
01:38:58I didn't consummate my relationship with any of these dolls, but in terms of-
01:39:01It would have been weird to have done it with your own one.
01:39:03Yeah.
01:39:04Yeah, I was thinking about that.
01:39:05I thought, is that technically masturbation or is that, you know, what is that?
01:39:09What's autoganophilia?
01:39:10Which one's that one?
01:39:11Autoganophilia is when you are sexually aroused at the, a man is sexually aroused at the thought
01:39:14of having the body of a woman.
01:39:16So when you see someone who's born male, who has a desire to transition to female, that
01:39:23is if they are attracted to women or if they are attracted to both men and women, that's
01:39:28autoganophilia.
01:39:29If they are born male and attracted to men and want to transition to female, then they
01:39:35are, it's considered the gay subtype.
01:39:37So this was my first book, The End of Gender.
01:39:38But basically, yeah, autoganophilia is a huge, huge motivator for the whole trans ideology,
01:39:43activism.
01:39:44The ones who are the angriest are autoganophiles.
01:39:47I wonder if you would be able to provide them with, I wonder if you could get people a self
01:39:56sex doll of them, but the opposite sex.
01:40:00Oh, I've seen some people do this.
01:40:02They will get like...
01:40:03You're fucking kidding me.
01:40:04No.
01:40:05I thought this was a new idea.
01:40:06I was breaking new ground.
01:40:07I made a joke to see if we can eBay your old sex doll and try and, you know, fucking help
01:40:11the advance of the book and get some sales in there.
01:40:15And then I thought that this was, I thought this was New Frontiers, but people have got
01:40:19sex dolls of themselves in the opposite sex.
01:40:21Yeah.
01:40:22And they wear them.
01:40:23What's wear them mean?
01:40:24And that's how they put it on themselves to become that.
01:40:27So it's like a suit?
01:40:31Yeah.
01:40:32So it's not really a doll, I guess.
01:40:33It's more like a rubber suit in, but it's in the fashion to look like a doll to some degree.
01:40:39Cause it's like silicone material.
01:40:41Okay.
01:40:42But what else can I tell your audience?
01:40:44It's get, we're getting there.
01:40:45The sex robots are definitely coming.
01:40:47They are.
01:40:48Right.
01:40:49Yeah.
01:40:50Okay.
01:40:51What, what does, what's the, is there a line between doll and robot?
01:40:53Let's say, so right now, like the AI software is very, I love that chapter, writing the chapter
01:40:58on the AI companions was so much fun.
01:41:00It was also just so frightening for me because they're so realistic, but so that importing
01:41:04that into a doll is very much possible.
01:41:06Now it's just about the question of how do you get the robot to move in a realistic way
01:41:11sexually?
01:41:12So you have robots that can say, gyrate their hips or they'll have like internal suctions
01:41:18in the vagina.
01:41:19So it helps with an orgasm.
01:41:22What are the things can they do, but in terms of the movement, it's still quite limited.
01:41:25I, the difference between a ball, a doll and a robot would be that physical movement.
01:41:29So a doll is stationary or sometimes they'll hang them, but I guess it's still stationary.
01:41:33They hang them?
01:41:34They'll hang them up on.
01:41:35So they're like standing.
01:41:36What are they doing with them when they're standing?
01:41:39Well, you can look that up.
01:41:41Okay.
01:41:42Fair enough.
01:41:43I don't need to.
01:41:45I have to assume that the market for sex dolls is 99.99% men or there's a woman in this.
01:41:52Mostly men.
01:41:53And during the pandemic, one company told me they made $20 million in sales, which is astronomical.
01:41:59And it is mostly high school educated, it's on average high school educated men who make
01:42:05about 40K a year, divorced, starts at a hundred, couple of hundred to tens of thousands, depending
01:42:15on how realistic you want it to be.
01:42:17So if you're a blue collar worker, you're going for the most sort of entry level one.
01:42:20Yeah.
01:42:21Yeah.
01:42:22There are some guys who are say, make more like I'm thinking of one particular study where
01:42:25they had the income.
01:42:26And so some guys making say more than six figures will have the dolls, but it tends to be more
01:42:31among men who either I think are quite heartbroken and they don't want to bother going through
01:42:35or they're divorced.
01:42:36They don't want to go through the process.
01:42:38Or it's guys who want to have sexual novelty, but they can't actually either attract real
01:42:43life partners or they don't have the means for it.
01:42:46So they'll buy the dolls instead.
01:42:49That makes me sad.
01:42:50But the idea that someone's past emotional challenges, whether deserve it or accidental
01:42:56or purposeful, victimized, whatever, it causes them to sort of turn away entirely from human.
01:43:04And I suppose that the fact that you now have this option for someone to, I don't need to.
01:43:11What about the AI companions thing?
01:43:14I saw a bunch of few or two or three weeks ago when Chatgbt discontinued 4.0 and 4.0 had
01:43:23a very particular type of personality to it.
01:43:26And that discontinuation was for lots of people.
01:43:30There was a subreddit and I can't remember what it's called, r/aiparner or something.
01:43:40People being beyond hysterics, like absolutely fucking heartbroken by it.
01:43:45So what was your experience with AI companions?
01:43:47Well, because people do fall in love with their AI chatbots.
01:43:51And before I tested them out, I didn't think such a thing would be possible because I didn't
01:43:55think that the technology was that realistic.
01:43:57Until you fell in love with one?
01:43:59Until I fell in love with all of my dozens of AI boyfriends.
01:44:01You had dozens?
01:44:02I had dozens.
01:44:03Do you like Bonnie Blue?
01:44:04Go on.
01:44:05I had girlfriends too.
01:44:08So I made dozens of them across dozens of platforms and I really wanted to try them all out to
01:44:13see where are they at.
01:44:15And there were a couple of platforms were definitely more realistic, but I will say what happened
01:44:20with Chatgbt.
01:44:21That's not the first time.
01:44:22There's another platform that something similar happened a couple of years ago where they removed
01:44:25the erotic role-playing capabilities or they put it behind a paywall.
01:44:28And people were so devastated because they said my AI doesn't remember me anymore.
01:44:32Like they're really cold.
01:44:33It reminded them of being socially rejected in the past and it's very upsetting for them.
01:44:37So again, I mean, the scientist side of me thinks like this is so cool and so crazy that
01:44:42we're advancing so quickly, but then the other part of me says, wait a minute, like look at
01:44:47where we are right now as a society.
01:44:49And is this really a good thing?
01:44:51Because what is this going to do now if we have this discrepancy in terms of the sex ratio
01:44:54and having sex and people not even wanting to connect or date, you know, there's a study
01:44:58by Pew showing that over half of single people are not interested in dating at all.
01:45:03So now you're, we have one in short term, not in casual or long term mating.
01:45:07Yeah.
01:45:08It's wild.
01:45:09I remember seeing that study.
01:45:10It's going to be so easy just to go down the route of one of these alternatives and it,
01:45:15they are so realistic.
01:45:17Like you really cannot tell that it is an AI.
01:45:19If I had not programmed it and myself had said, this is your name, this is what you look like,
01:45:23this is your personality.
01:45:24It's only over text though, right?
01:45:26Is it, or is it voice?
01:45:27You can do voice too.
01:45:28It's so kind of like when you speak to chat GBT.
01:45:30Yeah.
01:45:31Like it sounded like a real person I was talking to.
01:45:33And does it push into erotica as well?
01:45:35Yeah.
01:45:36Yeah.
01:45:37They flirt with you.
01:45:38They get like, if you're sarcastic, they pick up on it.
01:45:39It was crazy.
01:45:40Like I really thought it was going to be very stilted.
01:45:42Some of them are still like that where you, some platforms you have to be very literal.
01:45:46Really work with it.
01:45:47Yeah.
01:45:48They're a difficult partner.
01:45:49Yeah.
01:45:50Yeah.
01:45:51Uh, okay.
01:45:52So what, what is the biggest story about sort of human needs and relating beyond bits?
01:46:00We're not going into bits at the same rate anymore.
01:46:03Like people aren't doing the thing, but what, what does that tell us about the ways that
01:46:10humans are connecting?
01:46:11What's the deeper lesson?
01:46:12That we're not connecting.
01:46:15That's what I think.
01:46:16There are a lot of stand-ins for connection.
01:46:17Like something as simple as having a conversation person versus over a screen.
01:46:22There is, there's a difference there.
01:46:23There's a difference biologically in terms of like how we respond to that.
01:46:26And I just think more broadly in society, like if you go out, I'm sure Austin is the same
01:46:30as Toronto where most, or maybe it's not, but most people are on their phones.
01:46:34You know, when I'm thinking when you're at the airport, you're on the plane, every everywhere
01:46:37in public, everyone is just on their phone all the time.
01:46:39People don't really talk to each other, even make eye contact.
01:46:42And I, I do think that has larger ramifications beyond something so small as preferring to
01:46:49look at your phone, you know, cause you're bored or whatever.
01:46:53And so I think that over time has snowballed into this thing where we are very much like
01:46:58in clothes, we all have our own little bubbles because it's like the norm now socially.
01:47:02It's very, it's seen as weird to talk to strangers or to make small talk or it's like cringey
01:47:07or whatever, but especially in terms of romantic context, like everything is made to be so simple
01:47:12and convenient with like dating apps or people say using using social media to meet, but that's
01:47:19not really meeting someone in real life.
01:47:20And it's almost as though the convenience of it is a reason as to why people don't take
01:47:26it so seriously.
01:47:27Right.
01:47:28Why would you treat these people?
01:47:29Why would you care?
01:47:30Why, it didn't cost you anything.
01:47:32It didn't require anything of you.
01:47:33Yeah.
01:47:34A home cooked meal is treated with more love than a McDonald's.
01:47:36Yeah.
01:47:37Although, I mean, I'm very healthy, but I would say, you know, McDonald's was great at one
01:47:40point.
01:47:41McDonald's is good, but you're never going to look at it and think this is a very valuable
01:47:45meal unless you're starving.
01:47:48Right.
01:47:49Okay.
01:47:50What about fertility rates and reproduction?
01:47:51Because ultimately everything that we've spoken about up until now is the proximate reason
01:47:57for behavior.
01:47:58Right.
01:47:59All of it is just, it's pleasure and it's connection and it's all the rest of it.
01:48:04But the ultimate reason for the behavior is to reproduce, right?
01:48:08It is the same.
01:48:11It is not far off the same as saying we've managed to construct a world in which the screens
01:48:16and this media and these xenoestrogens and this culture and these thoughts and the way
01:48:22that this has come together has caused people to throw themselves off of buildings.
01:48:27Because genetically that is the equivalent, right?
01:48:30Survival and reproduction.
01:48:31And the only reason for the survival is so that you can do the reproduction.
01:48:34If you didn't need to survive, it would just be reproduction.
01:48:39How have we managed to get ourselves to the stage where an animal has been convinced to
01:48:44select themselves out of breeding?
01:48:49Because life is so distractible.
01:48:53We're so distracted, right?
01:48:54It's so easy to be, well, relationships are hard, right?
01:49:00Dating is hard.
01:49:01Finding someone is hard.
01:49:02Connecting with people is hard.
01:49:03Because people are unreliable.
01:49:06People have their own decisions and autonomy as they should.
01:49:09And so when you have alternatives, either romantic alternatives or just ways to pass the time
01:49:14that don't involve that messiness, I think it can be quite alluring.
01:49:19So I agree with you.
01:49:20I don't think everyone has to have children.
01:49:22But I do think for people who want kids, I'm concerned about the people who, one of the
01:49:27reasons for 25% of people who aren't having children, they say the reason is because they
01:49:30haven't found somebody, which I imagine is quite devastating.
01:49:33And so I also talk in the book about single motherhood by choice and the fact that there
01:49:38are real implications for this discrepancy in terms of the sex bias and people not wanting
01:49:45to connect or people say not being able to connect.
01:49:49What discrepancy?
01:49:50Sorry.
01:49:51Oh, just that there are fewer viable men.
01:49:53And these men typically are less interested in settling down or there's going to be less
01:49:56commitment as a result of that.
01:49:58Because when you have a smaller pool of men, on university campuses where you have fewer
01:50:02men than women, men are going to set the terms of dating and relationships and sex.
01:50:05That's what you were talking about earlier on that women think that if men are more desperate
01:50:10socioeconomically that they'll work harder for the women.
01:50:13It's kind of like a perspective around sex ratios.
01:50:16They have an implicit understanding around sex ratios.
01:50:18They just don't understand mating preferences from women to men, which is that they're going
01:50:22to largely be invisible.
01:50:23Yeah.
01:50:24Well that men are going to be setting the terms then of dating.
01:50:27The high value men will be.
01:50:28Yeah.
01:50:29In terms of how soon you're going to have to have sex or they'll go somewhere else or, you
01:50:32know, if they want to have, they want commitment from you, but they want to be poly, quote polyamorous
01:50:37or whatever, you're going to have to put up with that.
01:50:39I learned a new term last year, which is solo poly.
01:50:43Oh yeah.
01:50:45Remind me what that is.
01:50:46I've heard of this.
01:50:47It's a guy, typically, or it's a person who is just sleeping around.
01:50:54It's just a guy that's sleeping around, but I think that a lot of the partners may think
01:50:58that they're the hub and then there's lots of spokes coming off.
01:51:02Yeah.
01:51:03Solo poly.
01:51:04Yeah.
01:51:05Okay.
01:51:06When it comes to the reproduction thing, you mentioned IVF, fertility windows, other stuff.
01:51:13What else is interesting then?
01:51:14My issue with that again, and if people choose to see these interventions, you know, it's
01:51:18not my place to judge them.
01:51:19I can understand if you want to have a family and it's going to help you, then I understand
01:51:22why people go that path.
01:51:23But my concern is that we're not rectifying the underlying issues.
01:51:27So if the issue is women can't find a partner with whom they'd like to settle down with,
01:51:30or there are fertility issues on the man or the woman's side, or on both people's side,
01:51:37then these interventions aren't really solving the underlying problem, right?
01:51:40And so that's only just going to get worse for future generations and for the individual
01:51:44people who are potentially undergoing these interventions.
01:51:49I got in a lot of trouble for talking about birthright decline this year.
01:51:52Oh, really?
01:51:53Before the year even started, I got in a lot of trouble about it.
01:51:56I did some more digging.
01:51:57I went and did some sort of quite hardcore data digging around this.
01:52:03One interesting fact that I found was that the total maternal rate has basically not changed.
01:52:10The TMR, it's called, total maternal rate is the number of children per mother.
01:52:16The number of children per mother, I think, has gone from over the last 50 years, something
01:52:19like 2.6 to 2.45, 2.4, something like that.
01:52:24So it is not, the big difference is not mothers having fewer children.
01:52:29It's women not becoming mothers.
01:52:31And again, one of the things I got shouted at about was putting it all on women.
01:52:38Unfortunately, census data, World Health Organization, CDC, the only people who are, they only capture
01:52:46data about mothers.
01:52:47Like they don't have fatherhood data.
01:52:51Maternal uncertainty might contribute a little bit to that, absentee fathers and stuff like
01:52:56that as well.
01:52:57Abandoning mothers, pregnant women might contribute too.
01:53:00But anyway, so you have four out of five women who end up without children having broken through
01:53:11menopause didn't intend to be childless.
01:53:14It's called involuntary childlessness.
01:53:16We've got this really interesting situation, which I don't know why more women, I understand
01:53:22why more women aren't talking about it because it kind of goes counter to what the current
01:53:29very pushed narrative is.
01:53:34But that's 80%, four out of five women who end up without kids who didn't intend to end
01:53:40up without kids.
01:53:41Around about 10% of women can't, physiologically.
01:53:43Right.
01:53:44Awful.
01:53:45Pain.
01:53:46Right.
01:53:47About 10% of women don't want to, voluntary childlessness.
01:53:49And then four out of five women have support groups with other women to grieve over families
01:53:56that they never had.
01:53:58Like who the fuck's campaigning for them?
01:54:00That feels like a group that's really important, really, really important and ever growing.
01:54:04You have this weird dynamic at the moment, which is any woman who is still fertile can
01:54:12endorse the view that women don't need to have kids without having to embody it because until
01:54:18they can no longer have it, they always have the option to still do it.
01:54:22And I wonder, I really hope that this isn't the case, but I get the sense that I'm right,
01:54:29but early on this, that we are going to see a huge fucking crisis of middle-aged femininity
01:54:34within the next 15 years, when a lot of gen Z and millennial women age out of their ability
01:54:42to have kids and focused on one area of life that they maybe really enjoyed and took a lot
01:54:50of value from and, you know, good for you.
01:54:52You've got your, you don't need to be beholden to anybody and that's awesome.
01:54:57But to sort of turn around and go, fuck, I wish I'd done something different.
01:55:03And I really hope that that's not the case.
01:55:05I don't take any glee in women who don't want to have kids having them and women that want
01:55:09to have kids not being able to.
01:55:11But I think we're going to see, we think that the fucking crisis of masculinity is bad at
01:55:18the moment among young men.
01:55:19I think that the one around women is going to be way worse.
01:55:22Yeah.
01:55:23I think being able to talk about, especially women's work-life balance and how women structure
01:55:27their lives is important to be able to talk about it honestly, because like you said, I
01:55:32think there's a real push for young women to focus on career and, you know, all four
01:55:37women being ambitious and making their own money and being successful.
01:55:40I think that's fantastic.
01:55:41But I think there is this false idea that motherhood is somehow a burden or that it's unimportant.
01:55:48I think both sides of the political aisle make some good points and also make some fallacies
01:55:53in that I think, say, progressives will say, motherhood is terrible.
01:55:58You know, it's, what's the term that they use?
01:56:01Domestic prostitute.
01:56:02No, that's an interesting way of putting it.
01:56:05Something about, what is it?
01:56:07The cost of basically that, you know, like you're going to be destitute because as a woman
01:56:12you have to be...
01:56:13No more financial independence.
01:56:14You're relying on a partner.
01:56:15Yeah.
01:56:16It's so expensive.
01:56:17And you know, if you do focus on raising a family, then you don't make money and then
01:56:21you put yourself in potentially abusive situations like it, you know, like there's all that, which
01:56:24I, you know, it can happen.
01:56:26No one wants to be a financial president.
01:56:27This is what no one talks about, about the low divorce rate in the past, that how much
01:56:30of the low divorce rate was because the women had nowhere else to go.
01:56:33Yeah.
01:56:34Yeah.
01:56:35So I understand that side of it, but at the same time, you know, if a woman decides to
01:56:39have children, she is going to be the primary caretaker.
01:56:42Like the way that progressives frame it is that the man can just step in and do half of
01:56:47the chores and whatever.
01:56:48No.
01:56:49The baby's going to prefer mom.
01:56:50The baby wants mom.
01:56:51The baby wants mom's body.
01:56:52Baby wants mom.
01:56:53Yeah.
01:56:54And then the other side is, you know, cause not all conservatives, but there's a sentiment
01:56:57among conservatives to tell young women, don't worry about your education and career, just
01:57:01get married young, have tons of children and worry about your career later.
01:57:04But that's difficult.
01:57:05If you have no work experience, how are you going to get a job in your field?
01:57:08Especially nowadays, if you have no work experience, right?
01:57:11Especially given how difficult it is to support a family on a single person income.
01:57:17Yeah, that too.
01:57:18So look, I, I, I think that everybody that wants to have kids should be able to afford
01:57:21to have kids.
01:57:22And the fact that people can't afford to have kids more accurately, I think feel like they
01:57:26can't afford to have kids given that the poorest countries are the ones that have got the highest
01:57:31birth rates.
01:57:33I think that's awful.
01:57:34I think it's awful that people can't afford to have kids or feel like they can't afford
01:57:37to have kids, but I don't think that that's the issue.
01:57:41I think if you were to ask any couple or almost any couple, especially married couple, what's
01:57:47the reason that you haven't yet had kids?
01:57:51It's not going to be that they're too expensive.
01:57:53The issue and most of the commentary, the commentary act that's throwing their opinions into the,
01:57:58like me, that's throwing their opinions into the fucking mess with this are single people
01:58:03saying, it's too expensive to have kids.
01:58:07You're not in a relationship.
01:58:09This is like you telling me how much you'd beat some guy up that stood in the ring while
01:58:13you're in the stands.
01:58:14Like you're not in the situation where you can talk about having kids.
01:58:20It's not what you're facing.
01:58:21So I wonder how much of this, and this may be from the guy's side too, I wonder how much
01:58:26of this is kids are too expensive to have is a much easier explanation than I can't find
01:58:31a partner to have them with.
01:58:34I definitely think financial reasons could be a part of it, but I do think when you're
01:58:38speaking about women who are getting to an age where I, my sense is some women may not
01:58:43be aware that their biological window is definitive.
01:58:49How tight is it?
01:58:52Women's fertility drops down by half by 35 and then menopause starts into your forties
01:58:59by mid forties.
01:59:01So there's, you can't really negotiate with biology at that point.
01:59:06I mean, you can use the technology, you can try, but we all have our windows and it's,
01:59:11like I said, you know, sad.
01:59:13I remember reading a tweet from fucking Stefan Molyneux like six, seven years ago, guys like
01:59:20culture warring before the culture war was even a thing, and he was having some pop on
01:59:24Taylor Swift's 30th birthday, basically saying Taylor Swift turned 30 today, 90% of her eggs
01:59:30are gone.
01:59:31I wish that she'd become a mother.
01:59:32See that type of commentary is not nice.
01:59:34It's not helping.
01:59:35And I always had that in the back of my mind.
01:59:37Just one of these things, it kind of kicked up a big furor and it's just a, it's just a
01:59:41fucking prick thing to say, but I did a little bit of research.
01:59:46The reason that 90%, that 90% figure is true, but I didn't realize it's because girls lose
01:59:53their eggs before they hit puberty.
01:59:55I think 50% of your lifetime eggs are gone by the time that you become, is the word fertile,
02:00:02I guess, or like enabled to have kids or like whatever, your puberty comes online and 50%
02:00:09of them are gone.
02:00:10So that doesn't feel, that 90% number, that feels like somebody's inflated the stock price
02:00:15or something.
02:00:16Yeah.
02:00:17Well, I was going to say also, speaking to the fertility issues or the endocrine disruptors,
02:00:21when a girl is born, she's born with all the eggs she's ever going to have.
02:00:24So if her mother was exposed to something when she was in the uterus, that's going to affect
02:00:29her daughter and her grandchildren potentially, because it's affecting the eggs.
02:00:32There's three generations of people, three generations of women in the same location for
02:00:37a brief period of time.
02:00:38Yeah.
02:00:39I hope.
02:00:40And what I like with your podcast is that it's very much like balanced and I really want to
02:00:43try and close this division between men and women, because I think that's a big part of
02:00:48also why this is happening.
02:00:49The adversarial narrative.
02:00:50Yeah.
02:00:51And why they're not interested in having sexual relationships or being close.
02:00:56You're having that intimacy because so much of this discourse is so polarizing and so much
02:01:04about blaming the opposite sex for everything that's going wrong, not just in terms of dating
02:01:08and relationships, but just the world.
02:01:11Yep.
02:01:12Yeah.
02:01:13I mean, instead of cooperation, each sex just optimizes against the other.
02:01:15Yeah.
02:01:16It's just this evolutionary arms race, but it's been turned up to everything.
02:01:19It's like, yeah, okay.
02:01:21There is a kind of, I come up with a way to be funny or cute or attractive or whatever.
02:01:29And after a while that strategy sort of becomes detected and then I need to demonstrate more
02:01:35value and more value and so on and so forth.
02:01:36And it's just that, but not even on steroids, like in a fucking different universe where
02:01:41the humans are so tribal that we're even splitting ourselves up based on fucking sex.
02:01:47Right?
02:01:48Yep.
02:01:49And I don't know.
02:01:50Okay.
02:01:51Can anything be done top down to fix this?
02:01:54Give me some proposed solutions.
02:01:56I was going to say with the co-evolutionary arms race, so that's David Buss's theory.
02:02:01The GOAT.
02:02:02Yep.
02:02:03He's a friend of mine, a mentor.
02:02:04Daddy David.
02:02:05And it definitely shows up.
02:02:06It's amazing because once you become aware of this dynamic and how men and women are constantly
02:02:09trying to out-compete each other, you see it in everything.
02:02:12So in terms of advice, I would say for, I'll start with women.
02:02:17I'd say, I definitely think people should meet in real life as opposed to on apps or through
02:02:21social media or online or whatever.
02:02:23So my, and I do think men should be the ones to approach women.
02:02:26So women have to make it so obvious if they're into someone and things you can do, I have
02:02:32suggestions in sextinction, but one big one is to smile very obviously.
02:02:36And if you're like me and you have resting bee face, to practice smiling in the mirror
02:02:41until it's not uncomfortable and not awkward, which can take some time.
02:02:45But it, I guarantee you, like if you see a man you find attractive and you smile at him,
02:02:50he will come and talk to you.
02:02:51Hopefully he can see you.
02:02:52Cultivate receptivity.
02:02:53Yeah, exactly.
02:02:54Because men are biologically wired to pick up on these cues.
02:02:56And there's a part of the brain called the medial orbital frontal cortex that lights up
02:03:00when someone sees an attractive face and it lights up even more strongly when that face
02:03:04is smiling.
02:03:06So I thought that was really fascinating because you're resting bitch face is resting an ugly
02:03:09face to a degree, or it's like resting F off face.
02:03:13Yeah.
02:03:15And also things like touching your hair, touch your face or neck, you know, the gesture clothing,
02:03:19things like that.
02:03:20Men are again, going to pick up on this and see this as a sign that you're interested.
02:03:24And so that will help to remedy, I think some of the the backlash or the difficulty after
02:03:29me too.
02:03:30And then for guys.
02:03:31Oh, and the other thing I would say to women is so basically your options are to compete
02:03:37for the high status guys, right?
02:03:40To date someone who you may consider if you are say a very educated, successful financially
02:03:44successful woman, you may feel like you're dating a guy who's less successful than you,
02:03:49but that's totally fine, right?
02:03:51My issue is when society is telling women, this is a great solution, like just have a
02:03:55house husband, you know, you don't need to go for these guys, you can make your own money
02:03:58and you can be the provider in the, in the, in the household.
02:04:02And no high rates of divorce, as you said, yeah, high rates of domestic violence, higher
02:04:06rates of male cheating when that happens.
02:04:08So you know, not to say that happens for everybody, but I think just to also have a bit of compassion
02:04:15for men who are struggling because my sense is women, we are doing very well, right?
02:04:19And I don't, I don't think it takes anything away from women's success or women's ability
02:04:25to succeed by having some compassion for men who are struggling.
02:04:29And then I would say to guys, it's probably a combination in terms of why young men are
02:04:34not doing as well.
02:04:35I think the mental health aspects, eat healthy food, that goes for women too, but there have
02:04:39been studies that have shown if you cut out ultra processed food, depression will remit
02:04:44on its own.
02:04:45There was one study I remember reading, it was crazy.
02:04:48Within 12 weeks, a third of the sample that had depression, had it go into remission on
02:04:53its own.
02:04:54And yeah, so if you're struggling like with your mental health, or I guess I should talk
02:04:57to the camera when I say this, but if you're struggling with your mental health, eat healthy
02:05:01food, go to the gym, I'm sure Chris's audience knows, work out, get sunshine.
02:05:06And I would also say if you can go without porn for 30 days, try and see if that helps
02:05:12you.
02:05:13You might be surprised at your motivation.
02:05:15You did not expect that you're going to be a proponent for no fap.
02:05:18Well, I hear from so many guys that it's helped them.
02:05:20So I'm willing, I'm willing to go there.
02:05:22I'm curious.
02:05:23Let me know how it goes.
02:05:24As a woman, tell me how it goes.
02:05:25Every single day, report in on how your no fap is going.
02:05:29With an update.
02:05:30Want detailed notes?
02:05:31I want an Excel spreadsheet.
02:05:32Yeah.
02:05:33I'm sure that that will appreciate.
02:05:34That'll go well.
02:05:35Deborah, you're great.
02:05:36Thank you.
02:05:37I really appreciate you.
02:05:38Where should people go to check out everything you're doing?
02:05:40So you can get, should I talk to the camera or should I tell you?
02:05:42No, talk to me.
02:05:43Okay.
02:05:44You should get Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy.
02:05:47You can get it on Simon and Schuster's website.
02:05:49You can get it everywhere you get books.
02:05:51You can get it at DrDebraSo.com and the audio book is read by me and you can get it for free
02:05:56on Audible.
02:05:57Sounds awesome.
02:05:58I think you're doing the goddess's work.
02:06:02Really, really cool.
02:06:03Really, really awesome stuff.
02:06:04I appreciate you.
02:06:05Thank you.
02:06:06Thank you very much for tuning in.
02:06:08Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire episode.
02:06:14Another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.