A Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation - Jefferson Fisher
CChris Williamson
Mental HealthManagementAdult EducationMarriage
Transcript
00:00:00Why do you think people are struggling with their communication?
00:00:02Because it's something that wasn't taught to them. It was only modeled and a lot of people didn't
00:00:07have good models. They had people in their lives that saw conflict as something that they had to
00:00:13have in order to feel close to each other. They saw how yelling was the only way to possibly stop
00:00:21something or maybe get physical was the only way to prove a point. And so there's a lot of people
00:00:25who haven't had communication modeled well in their life and there's a lot of books you can read
00:00:30and there's a lot of things you can do but not until you've actually done it can you ever start
00:00:34actually improving in it. It's like that Mike Tyson quote, "Everybody's got a plan until they get
00:00:38punched in the face." Until you get popped in the mouth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of people fear
00:00:43conflict but in communication especially. Why is it so scary? Why is conflict so hard to navigate?
00:00:50It takes courage. People feel like yelling and being aggressive. That's strength. It's not.
00:00:58Being somebody who can handle conflict calmly and know that you're going to get through it and
00:01:06there's going to be an end to it, that takes a lot of courage. I think a lot of people are afraid of
00:01:10that vulnerability. That's a word that men in particular find that that's something that is some
00:01:16kind of no-go zone when actually that's the one thing they probably most need. You know,
00:01:22some people instead of just a shouting match they really just need a hug. And so it's this unknown
00:01:29for a lot of people. And how do you not say the wrong thing? And so there's that fear. And fear
00:01:37often is masked in forms of anger. So it's a lot easier to get defensive and yell than it is to
00:01:42actually lean across and work through something hard. Why do you think people lose control so
00:01:48quickly in conversations? Because it takes no effort. It takes zero effort to yell and get
00:02:00defensive and raise your voice. There's no struggle in that. It takes a whole lot more strength to be
00:02:07able to take a breath, slow things down, say things more calmly. And so it's just an easier path. That
00:02:14neuro-pathway is a lot easier. And it's just something that's organic in our bodies. It's
00:02:19part of the fight or flight. Every time you hear a disagreement or something that's a different
00:02:23opinion that you don't like, naturally our whole body goes, "No, I don't think I like that. That
00:02:28doesn't sound good to me. That conflicts with something I believe. That conflicts with something
00:02:32I grew up knowing because my dad believed this, my mom believed this." And all of a sudden, that's why
00:02:37facts and evidence typically don't matter when it comes to changing somebody's mind. It has a lot to
00:02:42do with how you've communicated in a way of how you've made them feel about it. I've always thought
00:02:46that facts don't care about your feelings line could not be more backward. Yeah. Feelings don't give a
00:02:52single shit about the facts. Yeah, they don't ever care about the facts. What is happening in your
00:02:57body when you get triggered? It's the same thing of physical danger. Our bodies don't do well at
00:03:03deciphering between a social danger, meaning are they confronting me, offending me, coming into my
00:03:08space? Is my autonomy being questioned? Is my authority being questioned from a physical danger?
00:03:14So it's the same thing. Your pupils dilate to take in more light, meaning it's like that portrait mode
00:03:20on Apple to where everything goes fuzzy in the background. Your fists clench, your jaw clinches.
00:03:26That's why a lot of the times you start yelling and people go, "Why are you yelling at you?" I'm not
00:03:30yelling. It's because your breath has nowhere else to go. It's because you've been holding
00:03:37your breath because you're ready. Your body doesn't know, "Is there a bear behind the bush?" It's like
00:03:41the same. If I were to text you, if I texted Chris and I said, "We need to talk," period,
00:03:46first thing you go is, "What'd I do? What's wrong? What happened?" It's that anxiety. It's that fear.
00:03:54Have you seen there's some reels floating around of people saying, "Amazing ways to connect with
00:03:59your partner," and it's all stuff like that. "We need to talk." Exactly. "What did you do?" Right.
00:04:04All of these weird open loops. And when I think about it, I think a lot of it is the openness.
00:04:09It's the fact that there is the potential for things to go wrong, but as yet no conclusion. Right.
00:04:16And in that vacuum is where all of the speculation gets sucked. Yeah. Typically, especially if there's
00:04:21a little bit of activation or agitation with that, that is where everything just gets pulled in.
00:04:28Because it expands. I mean, it can be just like a bomb. That's what happens when you usually start
00:04:33with context first or a lot of unknown first that, "We need to talk," period. Or if you just respond,
00:04:42"K." You know what I mean? Dude, mine, the fucking thumbs up reaction emoji is the most passive
00:04:51aggressive shit. Yeah. That's more harmful often than like giving them the middle finger on the
00:04:56elementary. "I would rather you tell me to fuck off." Like that thumbs up is just the worst thing
00:05:01you could have possibly done. It's like you have a "K" in there. It's like I didn't care enough
00:05:06about you to put an "O" right in front of it. That's how little I care about you in that moment.
00:05:11So it's like, you know, you're creating that unknown and that fear. It's the same way
00:05:15often we know what it's like when somebody starts a story with the context and they'll say something
00:05:20instead of getting to the point, meaning starting with their "N" first. They'll be like, "So you
00:05:25remember the other day when we did this thing?" And you probably don't remember, but and they start
00:05:29going like, "What's happening? Okay. Are they upset? Are they not upset? Have I done something
00:05:33wrong? Have I not done something?" And we go often into fixing mode. We want to try and fix it. And
00:05:39usually we start to kind of, "Oh, you want to go there?" Like, "No, no, no, no, no. That's not it."
00:05:42And then it gets really, really frustrating. And then you go, "Okay, so you want me to...
00:05:49Okay, you just totally missed it. I mean, I gave you the whole..." It's because they're not being
00:05:52clear about it. Well, we don't have theory of mind and good storytelling saves the exciting twist for
00:05:58the end. But I guess good emotional storytelling buries the lead in the headline, right? You say,
00:06:03"Hey, I'm not mad at you. And this is nothing to be worried about, but..." Or some degree of,
00:06:12"I love you. And I just really want to have this conversation. I think it's super important. And
00:06:18I know that..." What was one that I got from Connor Beaton, who I worked with the other day?
00:06:23"I need to have a difficult conversation with you. And I know that you can handle it. And I know that
00:06:30we can handle it as well." I love it. Fucking great. You're like, "Oh, let's go. Like, this is good."
00:06:37Yeah. And see, that makes you want to get into it. To say, "Hey, we're going to grow through this."
00:06:43And so rather than when somebody comes into a conversation, what I call labeling the
00:06:48difficult conversation, rather than, let's say, "I need to give you bad news about something.
00:06:53And I'm already feeling anxiety about it. I don't know how I'm going to say it. I've been thinking
00:06:59about it while I brush my teeth, while I drive here. How am I going to have this?" And then I
00:07:03just start with, "Hey, Chris. How's it going? You're good. Have you been playing pickleball lately?"
00:07:09Yeah. I mean, have you seen that? It's like ping pong, but not. It's crazy. And then you're like,
00:07:14"What's going on?" And then I go, "So listen." And that's when you know. You can already tell in the
00:07:22tenor of my voice, something else is going on. You're trying to see what else is happening,
00:07:28because you know something else is going on. But when you're able to say, "This is going to be a
00:07:32hard conversation. This isn't going to be fun to talk about. This is something that is going to be
00:07:38hard for us." It's almost like we kind of ready them and to be emotionally resilient, to kind of
00:07:44nod and go, "Okay, I'm ready. Let's talk about it." But saying, "I'm telling you this because I know we
00:07:49can handle it. This isn't a conversation that you and I can't get through. Like, let's go. We can do
00:07:55that all day." One of the other lines that I've heard a bit, there's two situations that over the
00:08:02last couple of years have been very formative on how I see communication. The first one was Theo
00:08:07Vaughn with Sean Strickland. You see this clip? Sean and Theo. Sean Strickland, MMA fighter, UFC
00:08:14fighter. You know who he is? Oh, is this where he goes, "I'm just going to sit with you?" Yeah, yeah.
00:08:17That was so good. Bro, it is one of the most beautiful examples of space holding that I've
00:08:26ever seen. And it was something that I'd never seen done before. And then my friend Charlie from
00:08:30Charisma on Command did a breakdown of it and fully explained what was going on. He goes through the
00:08:36body language of Sean. So Sean's gripping this water bottle. He's got some fucking bottle of
00:08:40Evian, which is getting ragged around while he's having this conversation. He's grasping with one
00:08:44hand. He's looking for control. He can't find it. He's looking for control. He's looking for control.
00:08:48And then Theo makes a joke that pulls him out and then puts him back in. Yeah, here we go.
00:08:53Dude, I remember like laying in bed. Like, I remember I stopped believing in God, man. Like,
00:08:56fucking... Like I had fucking... Yeah, it's crazy shit, dude. Crazy shit, man.
00:09:04It's okay, man. It's a lot of that sad, dude. I used to be scared at night. Like,
00:09:08I used to stand up. Like, I heard when I was a kid that like, if you peed around your... Like,
00:09:14animals could pee somewhere that other animals wouldn't come. You know what I'm talking about?
00:09:18You know what I'm talking about? Huh? Have you ever heard that?
00:09:22Yeah, I'm sorry, bud. So...
00:09:33I'm sorry, buddy. That's all good, dude.
00:09:35We don't have to talk, man. I can just sit here with you for a minute.
00:09:46Oh, fuck. Ah, fuck. Just take a sec.
00:09:53I can just sit here. We can just sit here. Nah, it's all good, dude. Just take a second.
00:09:59I just process here. Yeah, man. Like, it's so good.
00:10:07Talk to me. When you see that... Yeah.
00:10:10What do you see going on? Well, one, you see from him, I have a much bigger
00:10:13position. Then his leg goes up, and he's... Which is already like, kind of coming more into yourself,
00:10:24right? Because probably if he would, if he could have on that couch, that's the position that he
00:10:28really wants to be in, is like, when you're... I mean, there's a reason why they call it the
00:10:32fetal position, when you're trying to get yourself more regulated. And he's doing this right here.
00:10:38Which is, in a lot of different therapies, this is very regulating, because it's allowing you to
00:10:43have a lot of tension, and then a lot of release. And so, for people who are having a really hard
00:10:49time, and they feel like they're going to have a panic attack, or they're really trying to process
00:10:52things, they'll grab a pillow. Like those plushie toys, they have a purpose, right? It's like you
00:10:57squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and it's release. And so, in that moment, that's exactly what he's
00:11:01gripping for. And that's probably what he was trained to do. But you can tell he's looking
00:11:05for control. And I love how that's the perfect way of just saying, you said a minute ago, space
00:11:11setting. We're allowed people to say, just hold space for somebody. And that sounds like therapy
00:11:15talk of like, what does that exactly mean? Well, Theo does it right there. It's just, hey man,
00:11:19we don't have to talk about anything, or solve anything. We just sit. Just let me sit with you.
00:11:25And that right there is, I mean, who doesn't look at that and go, that's strength right there. How
00:11:33courageous is that? Rather than, and you can tell Theo starts to like try to relate to him and go,
00:11:37yeah, yeah, when I was a kid, man, and tries to like, and he was already coming back to when he
00:11:43was in fifth grade and the dust being taken away. And he was, all of a sudden he was 11 years old
00:11:48again. There's a couple of moments where Theo makes a couple more jokes, pulls him out.
00:11:55And then he goes back in and he sits with him again. And Charlie breaks this down. The video
00:12:00he did was like, I'll have to check it out. It was so formative to me, dude. And it's crazy to be
00:12:05friends with someone that's able to, genuine friends with this guy for like six, seven years.
00:12:10And he's able to just put a piece of content out that maybe a hundred thousand people have seen,
00:12:15150,000 people. It's not a massive video. And it just completely introduced me to Joe Hudson,
00:12:21who's now a guy that coaches me, taught Charlie all of the stuff that he used to break it down.
00:12:26So that was the first one. The first one was it's okay, buddy. We don't need to talk. We can just
00:12:32sit here if you want. That was the first one. Then the second one is from Connor Beaton from
00:12:37Man Talks. And he used this line that I've never, ever heard anybody else use before.
00:12:42He said, your emotions aren't too big for me. Yeah. That's a good one. Oh my God. Your emotions
00:12:49aren't too big for me. Yeah. There's space for you to just be you. And in both of those situations,
00:12:57it's reassuring. There's no performance needed, no nothing. Yeah. Because I think in all relationships,
00:13:05especially romantic relationships, there can be this feeling of somebody is afraid they're
00:13:10being too much. That's why we may not want to express all of our emotions. We're afraid they're
00:13:16going to be too much. Then the other person is not going to be able to carry it, hold it. They're
00:13:21going to dismiss it. They're going to see it as all the things that we're telling this on our head is
00:13:24it's not going to be there. They're not going to be able to support me. I'm going to be too much.
00:13:29I'm going to be left by myself. I'm going to have to carry this by myself. But that kind of language
00:13:35to say my emotions are big enough for this moment. Or even, you know, I've said to my kids, which we
00:13:43love to say is like, my love for you is big enough to handle this. Like my love for you is big enough
00:13:48for even this little outburst or you doing something wrong. And my love for you covers all of this. And
00:13:55you don't have to worry about having to perform or having to have the right answer. Or, you know,
00:14:00like my son right now, he's eight. And so he's finding his way through a lot of school boys
00:14:09during recess or right after pickup. They throw the football just back and forth into like crowds
00:14:14of boys. And it gets really easy of like who can throw the best, who can kick the best. And like
00:14:19they're choosing who's most dominant, you know, who's the coolest of all of that. And I remember
00:14:26him coming home and he's really down about it. And he was like, they didn't, I played but nobody
00:14:33used me. Like in other words, he didn't get thrown to in that game. He was like, is that like, I'm sorry.
00:14:39And he was like apologizing to me. And I had to, I mean, like this was dad moment right here. I could
00:14:45have been like, yeah, next time I want you to go ahead and elbow a kid. I was like, dude, I was bigger
00:14:51than that. You're good. You don't have to have any of that. And I think that's the kind of model of
00:14:55things that more men can do. - What are some of the other lines that you love to use in a conversation?
00:15:04Conversations becoming dysregulated or you know that this person needs reassurance. Someone needs
00:15:11reassurance in a conversation that you're having. What are your favorite lines to show them that
00:15:15you're there with them? - The one that I like to use and it's going to sound cheesy, but it works.
00:15:25I promise. Is if we're not okay, then nothing's okay. Like it's if you and I aren't okay. Like this
00:15:32is why I say this to my wife. If we're not okay, then nothing's okay. In other words, it's really
00:15:38easy to go, we're fine. We're fine. And then just all of a sudden focus on the kids or finances or
00:15:42whatever it is. And it's easy to kind of switch over to getting busy with something else and it gets
00:15:48swept under the rug. But you miss that chance. Then it becomes this little bitty paper cut. And then
00:15:55you'll have another little paper cut and you have another little paper cut. And so eventually those
00:15:59become big ruptures over time. The one I also like to use is something else is coming up. I'm not sure
00:16:06yet. Like if we're in a conversation and I can tell that there's more to it for me. Like I am having a
00:16:15bigger emotional response than what's called for. I can invite her into that conversation. Let me put
00:16:23that differently. Let's say we're having a level three conversation. In other words, nobody's mad
00:16:30at each other. But something happens and all of a sudden I'm at a seven or eight and something's
00:16:35really got me upset. It's much easier if I say I can tell something else is coming up for me. I'm
00:16:42not sure yet. Rather than me trying to hold it in, avoid her, go distance and try and fix it myself.
00:16:50When it's actually me inviting her into this is what's happening to me in that moment is the very
00:16:54conversation and connection that is going to make her closer to me. To be the person that I need in
00:17:02that moment. Rather than thinking that I have to present her with somebody who's 100% whole
00:17:07and fixed and has it all together. And you're a part of this. You're a part of the team. We're
00:17:11working together. Exactly. And that is the vulnerability side of it. You can't strengthen
00:17:18alone. Self-improvement is, if you're just in it for, if it doesn't help you connect with anybody
00:17:27else then self-improvement is just self-worship. There's nothing else to it. It's to improve you
00:17:33around others as well. So going back to the triggered in the body, conflict in a conversation.
00:17:38How can people interrupt that reaction in real time? What are the best ways to stay composed
00:17:44when a conversation gets animated? When things are starting to get ratcheted up you have to find a
00:17:49way to slow it down. You have to find a way to elongate the process. You don't get extra points
00:17:56for having a very quick comeback. It looks good on social media. It doesn't work in real life.
00:18:02They just don't. You have to be able to slow it down. So what does that look like? It means you
00:18:06have to use your breath a lot. What I teach is have your breath be the first word that you say.
00:18:13I teach this to every one of my clients before they go into deposition or cross-examination. It's
00:18:17your breath. That's the only way you're really going to slow things down is if I choose my
00:18:24timing in this conversation and not let somebody else press their timing on me. Like in the home,
00:18:29for example, if we wait to have a conversation when the kids are in the path and we're trying
00:18:35to do dinner and everything is stressful and we've already had a tired day, my battery's already at
00:18:3920 percent, chances are not going to go great in conversations. It's not going to be that awesome.
00:18:45But if we're able to slow things down and I'm able to pause and use my words to let them know
00:18:52a better time and be better, that's going to do a whole lot better for me. So what does that do
00:18:58in the process? How do you do that? Aside from using your breath in conversation, you need to say it out
00:19:02loud. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I'm going to be better for this conversation here in a little
00:19:08bit. I can tell I'm not saying things as well as I want to and I don't want to approach the
00:19:12conversation this way. If you were, rather than trying to get defensive, if you were able to say,
00:19:20"Listen, I can tell this moment is a big one and you're saying a lot of things that are really
00:19:24important. I want to make sure that I take the time that gives my part what this deserves."
00:19:31And that's going to take some time. We're a team. Yeah, exactly. Even in disagreement,
00:19:37we're a team. Even in conflict, we're a team. All the more. Yeah, especially when it's conflict,
00:19:42because when you find that you're only... Nobody wants to be in it alone. We know what it's like
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00:21:11So, breath, first word. Yes, breath. Space, if... Timeouts.
00:21:18Battery is low, then I need a little bit more room. What else? Get quick to timeouts.
00:21:22The timeouts are something that you can't really be overused in some sense.
00:21:28If you find that things are really, really frustrating, they say, I think the data was
00:21:32like, you need to have 20 minutes to kind of regulate yourself again. In other words,
00:21:38don't try and say, you know what, let's just... I need a moment, and then it's not two minutes later,
00:21:43and they're like, you know what, and then you're right back at it. Again, that's not near enough,
00:21:47that's not near enough time. You need any more time with that. So we got pausing, using your breath,
00:21:52giving time to elongate it. So two timeouts, and then three set aside actual time for the
00:21:57conversations that matter. We'll set aside time for me time, you know, to do what I want, go work out,
00:22:05go do whatever, but we won't set aside time for some of the most important conversations we're ever
00:22:09going to have. And so if I were to say, even to you, I'd say, hey, I'd like to talk to you about
00:22:14something really important to me, and I'll make sure that we have time for it. One's a good window
00:22:19sometime next week. You see how much better that is than me going, hey, do you have five minutes
00:22:24for me to tell you about something? Like, you know what I mean? And that's, that's what happens,
00:22:29it's, and it just, it comes right on you to where nobody is, nobody's prepared. There's a book that
00:22:35my housemate was reading, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, and Stephen Covey, and one of
00:22:41his lesser knowns. In How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, he says one of the most important
00:22:48things that he used as a tactic was to have worry time. Schedule it? Yeah. Yeah. This is something
00:22:55that I probably should worry about. I'm going to wait until Sunday. Sunday, 2 p.m., that's my worry
00:23:01hour, or worry afternoon, or whatever. Yeah. And there's something about saying, I don't need to do
00:23:06this now, I will do it, and this is when, that closes the loop a little bit. Yeah. Pop it in a note,
00:23:13you'll have a nice schedule. Get a nice schedule for your worry Sunday, your worry Sabbath. And it
00:23:19means that I am going to deal with it, so it doesn't quite, you've given it the love that it needs,
00:23:25and it feels almost like a relational equivalent of that. Yeah, and I think you should also put pen to
00:23:32paper. I mean, we, a lot of the times we, these things sound good in our head until we actually
00:23:37say them, and we realize that that didn't hit like I thought it would. When you actually put pen to
00:23:41paper and write out what you want to talk about, why you want to talk about it, and when's the
00:23:46best time to bring it up, that gives a different sense of clarity as to, is this something I really
00:23:50need to say? Does it need to be said right now, and am I the one to say it? And so when you're able to
00:23:55actually write down, what am I asking them to do? What am I asking them to do for this information?
00:24:01Am I just venting to vent, or am I asking them to act, or am I asking them to listen? Next would be,
00:24:08what am I, what do I want to walk away from this conversation? Why do I need this conversation?
00:24:12Maybe that's all there is to it, but if you actually take the time to write it down as part
00:24:17of whatever habit tracking you're doing, your conversation is going to go better than if you
00:24:22just kept it all in your head and then got upset that they didn't react the way that you thought
00:24:26they would. A good rule is, I write things down so that my brain can rest. Yeah. There's something
00:24:31about, I'm going to keep this in working memory because I'm worried that I'm going to forget it.
00:24:37I need to bring this thing up, and it's emotionally charged. Yeah. And currently it's endlessly
00:24:41unresolved. Right. So I'm just going to lock those neural pathways in. I'm going to say that thing
00:24:45like a fucking mantra. This slight, this concern, this worry. Whereas if it's, and it sounds so dumb
00:24:53to have a worry list, which is what is advised. I think it's awesome. To have a worry. I'm going
00:24:58to worry about these things. Oh, and at this time, on this day, at least I don't need to keep it in
00:25:03working memory because then I'll worry that I forget my worries. Yeah. Infinite regress of
00:25:10worrying about worrying. Yeah. And then it's just living in your head rent free. You know, then,
00:25:13then it's taken up all the space that you could be using towards something else. But I mean, worries
00:25:17are good, but being able to get them out of your head, I'd say that's even better. What does anger
00:25:23usually hide? There's a quote that I heard once. It's something along the lines of, "I sat beside
00:25:32my good friend anger." And he turned to me and said, "My name isn't anger. It's grief."
00:25:38And I think a lot of the times anger is hiding fear. It's hiding sadness. It's hiding grief. All
00:25:49these things that are really the true bottom of that emotion. They say in therapy where it's
00:25:59hysterical, it's historical, meaning that it comes from something else. And often our emotions,
00:26:07which are extremely complex, we use the most basic language a caveman would use. "I'm sad,
00:26:15I'm mad, I'm angry, I'm tired." When there's a whole emotional vocabulary to use that's out there
00:26:23of if you sift and you sift and you sift and you sift and you ask, "Where is this,
00:26:28where is this coming from?" You find that what comes across as anger and yelling
00:26:35and injustice usually comes from a deep place of sadness. When I look at an emotion's wheel,
00:26:44you see the more surface level ones and then you split them out into, "Well, there's different
00:26:49components of anxiety or sadness and even grief. Those aren't the bottom. There's things that are
00:26:55more precise than that." It makes me think about how much diet advice for people that want to
00:27:01lose weight. They think that they need a huge number of different recipes maybe, but you
00:27:07probably have 70% of your calories coming from the same six meals. You're eating the same stuff
00:27:17over and over. So what you need to do is just take the small bucket of things that you usually do
00:27:22already and just get a little bit better at that. I think with emotions, certain people's
00:27:28predisposition, conditioning, life situation, current environment, et cetera, it channels
00:27:34them into grooves of emotions that they typically default to. Some people get mad. Some people get
00:27:40sad. Some people get whistled. Some people feel grief. Some people get depressed or anxious or
00:27:45whatever. But if you look a little bit deeper and if you can try and break them apart, if you can
00:27:50spend a little bit of time with them and go, it's actually not that. It's not those five meals. If I
00:27:55look a little bit more closely, it's these. Anger is really effective at what it used to do before
00:28:03we had the law enforcement. Before we had law enforcement and you crossed the line with me,
00:28:07I needed a sufficiently animated response to tell you, you crossed the line. You're not going to do
00:28:13that again. I'm going to show you how formidable I am by being loud and big and scary. It's also
00:28:19going to warn everybody else in the tribe that's watching that they can't do it to me too. Because
00:28:25if they do that, this will happen and they don't want this to happen. But now that response isn't
00:28:33needed in the same way. You can actually bypass that because presuming that there's no physical
00:28:39threat, you can actually communicate it to somebody in a way that's way more effective because anger
00:28:43doesn't usually get responded to with behavior change. Rarely, if ever, does getting angry at
00:28:48somebody lead to the changing their behavior. The harder you push, the more hardened they become.
00:28:55The more you tell somebody they're wrong, the more convinced they are that they're right. It wasn't
00:28:58that long ago that we did duels. You disrespected my honor in some way. We're going to go shoot it
00:29:06out. One of us may be standing one not. Thankfully, we don't do that anymore. We have increased some
00:29:13emotional capacity there. But I do think that anger is one that you find, especially in relationships,
00:29:23if you're really mad at your spouse or partner or whatever, if you just go a little bit deeper,
00:29:29it doesn't take long for that anger just to turn into sadness. That's why a lot of times yelling
00:29:33turns into tears. Yeah, you see that with people. I saw this on the front door of nightclubs a lot. So
00:29:39these girls would have been kicked out. Maybe they were too drunk. Maybe they've been doing something
00:29:43that they shouldn't have done or whatever, and they get kicked out outside. It happened more with,
00:29:47maybe because guys are ashamed of allowing their anger to turn into sadness, or maybe
00:29:52that's not an emotion that comes up. I'm not too sure. But these girls would get kicked out.
00:29:56They'd be outside. It's Newcastle, the most northerly city in England. It's fucking freezing,
00:30:01and it's like November or something. They're outside in some tiny little party dress. They
00:30:05were just having fun with their friends. Then they did something, and they're feeling injustice.
00:30:09They'd be shouting and screaming. It's so funny. Door staff that are inside of a venue
00:30:13come and deposit a problem that the door staff outside of the venue now have to deal with.
00:30:17Something happened inside, and the guys outside are now justifying what happened. The girls would be
00:30:23shouting and screaming and like, "I've got to go. My friends are in need. They've got my bag. What
00:30:27about my coat? You can't do this. That's not fair. She's a bitch." Then very quickly, that would
00:30:35turn into a team because it felt like, "This is injustice. I'm indignant. This isn't fair.
00:30:40That shouldn't have happened to me, and I'm drunk." It works the same way with shame.
00:30:46Usually, shame is met with defiance and defensiveness and anger and unfairness
00:30:54when behind that is usually some type of self-loathing sadness underneath it.
00:30:59I don't be able to see. Yeah, exactly. There's a difference between shame and regret. Usually,
00:31:08whenever you're getting in that cycle of, "I can't show my emotion," that's the same reason why you
00:31:15hide what you hide. It's the same reason you have the secrets you have because you couldn't imagine
00:31:20life with people knowing and knowing you have those emotions and feelings. I think, especially for guys,
00:31:27we still feel the same things, but a lot of us have a problem with showing it. We just rather
00:31:33go static. We rather go stoic. It's expressing it that's a whole lot harder. What are the biggest
00:31:40mistakes that people make when they're on the receiving end of aggression? That the other person
00:31:48doesn't want to be understood, where that's all there is to this person. If you're on the receiving
00:31:56end of aggression, one, I think you need to lay some boundaries to make sure that you're not.
00:32:03Assertiveness is good. Aggressiveness says, "I don't care about you," then that's not okay.
00:32:08But I think that if you find that you're on the other side of aggression, you're dealing with
00:32:13several different levels of how you want to lay a boundary of how I want to be spoken to.
00:32:19So we could talk about how do you respond to something like that.
00:32:24If it's somebody who means something to you, then usually that's very telling. Like we talked about
00:32:31a three conversation. If somebody comes in at a seven, well it's very telling. That means they're
00:32:36having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to. And so it's rather than coming at it
00:32:42with they have to agree with me, it's this mindset of have something to learn, not something to prove.
00:32:49And if I can think at the outset of I wonder where that's coming from, I wonder why they're
00:32:54responding that way, I wonder what's happening, I wonder what would cause that response, then you're
00:32:59going to be in a whole lot better position to keep yourself from getting emotionally wrapped up and
00:33:03responding in kind with aggression. Aggression, matching aggression doesn't really go anywhere.
00:33:10It's just anytime that somebody comes at you with aggressiveness and you respond, all you've done is
00:33:16just told them that you're exactly what they said that you were. You've just proved their point
00:33:21and now they're just going to want to ratchet it up. How do you think about setting boundaries well?
00:33:26You have to focus on the consequences and be okay with it. I think that's one of the hardest parts
00:33:32of boundaries. People are okay with saying I'm not good with this anymore, but their bark doesn't
00:33:38really have any bite to it. They're not willing to accept the consequences. For me, in simple
00:33:43boundaries in conversation, and I know boundaries get talked about a lot, it's just simply saying
00:33:49one what you're not going to do, two if they continue to do this, and three what you're
00:33:54willing to walk away from. So for example, let's say you're saying something that's offensive to me.
00:34:00I'm going to say I don't engage in conversation with people. They're going to disrespect me.
00:34:06If you continue to disrespect me, Chris, this is the end of the conversation.
00:34:10Maybe I have to be willing to get up and walk away. Rather than saying you can't yell at me,
00:34:15if I were to turn it to, I don't respond to that volume. That's a whole different power move
00:34:22that says I'm the one that's going to be much more in control and confident in this conversation.
00:34:28The more controlled and confident I feel, the less in control you're going to feel.
00:34:36I suppose the difficulty when you're the person who is at a three and somebody else is at a seven
00:34:42is that the person at a seven doesn't usually want to listen to somebody that's at a three.
00:34:49They need time to come back down. Exactly. And if you want to fix, if you're in the mindset of
00:34:56fixing, the only way that they're going to be able to hear you, even if it makes it worse, is for you
00:35:01to go to a seven, which puts both of you at an eight. Exactly. But yeah, the time away without
00:35:08feeling like you're amending the conversation, which is, I suppose, where the clear communication
00:35:12comes in, why that's so important. Yeah, there's a difference between just saying I'm out of here,
00:35:16slamming the door and leaving, versus saying I'm not leaving this conversation. I am going
00:35:21to make sure that we take some time because I can see you need some space. I'm good with that.
00:35:27You go talking about this later this afternoon, usually they'll nod their head yeah. Or sometimes
00:35:33I can tell you when I feel like my wife and I are on the same team is if I'll ask something
00:35:40and she'll go, "I'm fine." And I know she's not. And I might ask, "You good with talking to me
00:35:46about it later?" You should go, "Yeah." You know what I mean? But that like, you have to be able
00:35:53to give that, you know, to say, "Hey, I'm not, I don't want to leave this conversation. I'm not,
00:35:58I'm not, this matters to me. If it matters to you, it matters to me." Chris Voss has a slammer
00:36:04for getting people who seem like they have something on their mind to speak up when they
00:36:08don't want to. And it's just, it seems like there's something on your mind. Yeah, he's the best. I love
00:36:15Chris. It seems like, sounds like, seems like you have a reason for saying that. But it's also Chris
00:36:20Voss' voice. Like, of course. I mean, you hear his voice and he could be like, you know, "I think you
00:36:24should give me that couch." And I'd be like, "He could tell me to suck his dick and I'd probably..."
00:36:28Yeah, probably. He's that good. Look, his voice is that good. He's a handsome man. And also the voice.
00:36:35Yeah, yeah. Also the voice, you know. Yeah. He's, he's got a voice that naturally just calms you down.
00:36:42This just seems like, sounds like. So if you, somebody says something and you go, "Sounds like
00:36:46you have a reason for saying that. Sounds like that really matters to you." That seems like a
00:36:50really big deal. They go, "Yeah, yeah, it was a big, really big deal." But it's the same thing with like
00:36:54passive aggressive people. You can use that same tact. Okay, tell me how to deal with passive aggressive
00:36:58people. So if somebody's being passive aggressive, it's usually something that was taught in childhood.
00:37:04Meaning they've learned that their needs weren't going to be met right in that moment. So they would
00:37:09rather kind of expect you to solve it for them. In other words, they want you to, they don't want to
00:37:16be direct. They just expect you to find the answer. So it's the people that say things like, "You know,
00:37:21it should be nice if I was invited to something like that." Like they, they're, they're not going
00:37:26to voice it. So they would rather kind of, they're not going to use the front door. They're always
00:37:29going to use the backside exit. And instead of needing that, you can say, "Sounds like you have
00:37:39a reason for saying that. Sounds like there's more to that." Usually they have an answer for that.
00:37:45Or if you were to say, if they're being passive, you can say, "What's coming up for you?"
00:37:53That's one I like to use for a lot of different things is, "What's coming up?"
00:37:58So it has a way of disarming people in a non-defensive posture. Rather than saying,
00:38:06"What's wrong with you?" I'm gonna say, "What's coming up for you?" Meaning that I'm signaling that
00:38:12there's something else going on in here that I'm trying to help you bring to light. But that
00:38:17sounds like, seems like, it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Seems like there's
00:38:21something else that you're not saying has a way of getting the passive aggressive people. But I mean,
00:38:26if it's entrenched in them, all they're going to do is really double down. I mean, it would just be
00:38:30nice, you know, if somebody were to invite me to something, but no, that's fine. I mean, you can't,
00:38:34you can't help the victim mentality. That's not going to switch by just a few sentences.
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00:39:54Digging more to the genesis of the passive aggressive person in childhood. I thought
00:39:59that was interesting. Yeah well you think of like we just saw on that Theo clip and how we we respond
00:40:07to everything. How we were modeled in communication and how we were treated in children. What they call
00:40:13you know your childhood trauma shows up all the time. And so it comes into these these filters
00:40:20that you apply. So maybe you're in an argument with your wife or your girlfriend or whatever and
00:40:30you felt controlled in that moment because she made some snide comment about what you can or can't do
00:40:34and what she didn't want you to do. And you didn't like that because you get to you're a guy who gets
00:40:38to decide your own thing. And all of a sudden you're voicing and yelling at what could have been a level
00:40:43three. You're now at a level 11. But really get down. What your body felt was you were back to that
00:40:50eight-year-old boy whose mom wouldn't let him go outside without first doing x, y, and z. Or a dad
00:40:56that made him do that didn't make him feel safe. And so you're responding based on old scripts.
00:41:03And so we all have these old scripts like old tape cassettes that we play anytime we feel these big
00:41:12feelings of I'm being controlled. I'm being pressured. I'm being caged. I'm not my own person. I don't feel
00:41:18safe. I'm never going to feel safe. I'm too much. These old scripts that we've been playing in our
00:41:22head. And so we we show those all the time in the language that we're using. So it's not that you're
00:41:28seeing the person and talking to them. It's usually it's a reflection of something that happened in your
00:41:32past that's showing back up. And the passive aggressive person had needs that weren't reliably met.
00:41:37Yeah it could have been. I mean well here's the takeaway though is that at one point in time that
00:41:44passive aggressiveness had a utility to it. There was a time when maybe they didn't they weren't safe
00:41:51to say what they actually needed. The regression wasn't safe. The regression wasn't safe. Voicing
00:41:56anything wasn't safe. And so it was they found that their life went better when they didn't have
00:42:04to voice it. Yeah they they held it in. And so they found some way to to cope and expect somebody else
00:42:10to read their mind rather than something else. But there's a lot of different things that you know
00:42:15that show up from childhood that we're just big kids. What about when it comes to delivering bad
00:42:21news to people? It's a required life lesson. It's impossible to not get around that. And people get
00:42:32really uncomfortable with it. And usually it's because they're feeling other people's feelings
00:42:36for them. I don't want to say that because that's not nice. They feel like they have to be nice.
00:42:43The real takeaway is choosing to be kind. Nice says it's focused all on the surface, the pleasantries
00:42:51I can't say that I can't tell you the truth Chris. That's not nice. All right. Kindness says I care
00:42:59enough about you to tell you the truth. Because I care about you I need to give you this this really
00:43:06hard news of what it's going to this is what it's going to be. And you can use labels simple as what
00:43:11we just talked about a minute ago. This is going to be some hard news. You're not going to like what I
00:43:15have to say. Give them a moment and then deliver the news. But what you can't do is twist the knife
00:43:21where you start to blame them first. All right. If you need to give bad news. Like imagine if
00:43:28I was just going to break up with you right now. The worst thing to do about it is all of a sudden
00:43:34go you know I just think you're so great Chris. And I've really enjoyed a lot of time. We start talking
00:43:41in past tense as if like what do you. I was enjoying that so far. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just keep going.
00:43:46To where you know you're not you're not being straight up and being honest.
00:43:51And often that's sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be when it comes
00:43:56to sad news. Let's say that you need to break up with a partner and you're feeling super nervous
00:44:00about it. How would you guide that person through the conversation? When I would use a label
00:44:08that means rather than and this is assuming you set aside time and you're not trying to do it
00:44:14through a text message or you know while you're. Apparently that's gauche now. Let's look down on
00:44:19to do it over text. Yeah yeah that's probably not a good idea. Or you're doing it in the middle of
00:44:22you know a movie or something. Let's assume you've already put good time around this to have a good
00:44:29conversation. It's to say I need to have a hard conversation with you. And then you need the first
00:44:36words out of your mouth need to be this isn't a relationship that I can see myself continuing in.
00:44:47Like you see all of a sudden I'm getting right to the point rather than saying I need to have
00:44:50something hard. You've just been great and you know it's not you it's me and you know we've just been
00:44:55we've had all these memories. Yeah yeah exactly. Instead of all that get right to the point. And
00:45:01it's it's much easier. People can take bad news. It's going to have a harder impact but the rest
00:45:11of it is going to be a whole lot better for you. Rather than trying to sound nice and be like I
00:45:16don't want to upset it's all me. It's not it's not you at all. Even though that's softer in the
00:45:20moment that long-term impact is going to be a whole lot worse because it because you weren't really
00:45:24being honest with me. And so even if you need to fire somebody bring them in this news is probably
00:45:33going to shock you. I need to let you go. And that's what you get to say I've enjoyed having you as a
00:45:41person. You've done great with the company or maybe it's in a relationship. I need to be out of this
00:45:48relationship. I need to move on. This relationship isn't working for me. Whatever it is. And that's
00:45:53what you get to say. I've learned a lot from you. I've learned and whatever it is the nice stuff but
00:45:59don't start with the pleasantries and then end with the hard. I think Chris has another one which is
00:46:07if you're saying that you can't go to an event say I can't go or I can't make it. Yeah. First. Right.
00:46:16Don't say things have got so hard recently and this chaos came up and I've got this thing in the
00:46:22and then that at the end. Yeah. Just don't bury the fucking lead dude. Yeah. Put it up top. I
00:46:30very much aligned with that. So what I teach is you start with the no first. Most people start with the
00:46:37the thanks first. They start with the gratitude. They go thank you so much. I'd love to but I can't.
00:46:42And but the word by has a way of deleting everything that came before it. Like I love you but
00:46:49you're crazy. You know whatever. That might be true. Yeah. Exactly. Both of those things might
00:46:54be true. Sure. Sure they could. However. Yeah. You want to start with the no first. So I can't
00:47:01period then the gratitude. Thank you so much for inviting me. Then add in some kindness. I'm sure
00:47:08it's going to be a great time. Hope you have a wonderful time. Knock yourselves out. Whatever it is.
00:47:14But don't don't that compliment sandwich is is a little hard to chew. Dude I've got a
00:47:21fucking fantasy going on in my head of me you Chris Voss and James Sexton doing an episode together.
00:47:29I'm gonna try and make that shit happen before the end. We probably could. I think that would be
00:47:32straight fire. I think that would be so much fucking fun. Yeah. I put something in the middle
00:47:38of the table that's remotely valuable or that most people most of you guys want. I'm like hey negotiate
00:47:42over this. Exactly. See it's like a gladiatorial fight to the death. Yeah exactly. Somebody somebody
00:47:47gets to fucking I don't know I don't know. Yeah so you're having a difficult conversation. You're firing
00:47:53a member of staff or you're breaking up with somebody or something similar. Yeah. And during
00:47:57that conversation the emotions begin to come up and there is always this temptation to
00:48:04I must even bail out of the conversation. Like poly ejecta see to see that somebody
00:48:12begins to get upset and then the employee comes into work tomorrow. I thought you were firing them.
00:48:16Yeah yeah yeah. Well. Exactly. What about that? Because I think that a lot of people enter into
00:48:23conversations with the intention of doing the thing and leave a conversation having had this
00:48:30weird spaghetti junction mess. Do you know what I mean? Like when people have difficult conversations
00:48:35often they do not they do not finish what they meant to start. Yeah. How would you navigate through that?
00:48:41Okay it's to me it's like people have no problem three minutes in a cold plunge but give them two
00:48:49seconds having to be honest with somebody in a conversation terrifies them. It's like okay think
00:48:55of it as like a cold plunge. You start it and at the beginning what is it you're trying to catch your
00:48:59breath you're trying I can't do this and then all of a sudden what you have some clarity and you
00:49:04realize I can do this and you realize your body's going through this and there will be an end to it.
00:49:08Same way in difficult conversation. Yeah it's going to be a splash. They have I have what I
00:49:14teach is cold cold shower conversations as example of those of like it's gonna it's gonna be a shock
00:49:21to the system at the beginning but we're gonna see our way out of it to where you you start to have
00:49:27the hard words you've already said we need to break up this relationship isn't for me or I need to let
00:49:33you go whatever it is you say the hard news and then you realize okay I did it like okay I had I
00:49:41said the thing and now we can have a lot more clarity now you've kind of gotten over it's way
00:49:46easier to crest the mountain when you just like go right up and then it gets down it's when you
00:49:50have a slow go up bail out yeah I haven't gotten there yet yeah I haven't done it yet there's still
00:49:55time for me to avoid this mountain exactly exactly and so it's it's just like that so you find ways
00:50:01for me in my world as an attorney I mean I grew up in courtrooms and depositions and watching this
00:50:08so I've seen a lot of emotional fighting and yelling and all sorts of hard tactics against
00:50:18each other super adversarial I've seen a lot of fights of arguments don't put me in a ring I'm not
00:50:26I won't be any good and uh with boxing gloves Sean Strickland's gonna eat you alive oh no no doubt I'd
00:50:31bail out that's right bail out but whenever you increase your capacity to hold other people's
00:50:38emotion meaning you can feel all your feelings without me holding them and I know that I'm in
00:50:45control of myself and I'm going to continue to breathing through it and I'm not going to be
00:50:49holding what you're presenting the better it gets like the more I realize that
00:50:56disappointment is part of the game like to be a great leader to be a great um to be a good person
00:51:04in my world you have to learn the art of disappointing people in other words telling them
00:51:08sometimes what they need to hear not what they want to hear makes me think about when the parents of
00:51:18missing children go on the news what is it that they always say we just want to know yeah we just
00:51:26want to know because the open loop is the worst thing yeah the open loop is where the most pain
00:51:30is and I'm sure that no parent would say this but logically it kind of makes sense that yeah finding
00:51:38the child dead in some ways would be emotionally preferable to living for decades yeah in the
00:51:46uncertainty and I mean no no parents ever going to come out and say that obviously they actually
00:51:51probably don't want that but you understand what I mean yeah the closing closing that loop is exactly
00:51:55what people want even though it's what your body is telling you absolutely not to do so when you're
00:52:04able to break up with somebody and not leave them guessing why or you need to fire somebody whatever
00:52:09the hard news is and not leave them guessing why that is you acting in alignment with integrity
00:52:18that's you acting in alignment with your values it's it's you going from nice guy to a good man
00:52:24one of the things that you mentioned there was somebody else's emotions
00:52:31not permeating you not being absorbed by you you're holding yourself here yeah many people
00:52:40that are empathetic people that are highly sensitive people who seem to absorb the emotions
00:52:48of those around them find that really difficult right to keep the you are there and I am here
00:52:53what's your advice for people to keep that emotional sovereignty when somebody else is
00:52:59getting sad with them well I'd want to first say that having empathy and being able to feel
00:53:08other people's emotions like that that is a superpower I don't think that's something to
00:53:13decrease what I don't want you to do is to feel so much of their feelings that you don't allow them
00:53:20the other person to feel their own in other words I'm afraid of disappointing you because you're
00:53:26going to be so upset and for you to be upset at me makes me upset and that's going to get into my
00:53:31system and I can't possibly share them do that because they're going to be disappointed me and
00:53:35I can't take them being disappointed me that's more of the the fear there but for somebody who goes
00:53:41I feel a lot of feelings and you can feel yours it's don't pick up what any nobody asks you to
00:53:47carry like don't don't start to feel the weight and burden of somebody else's feelings like for example
00:53:54you might have I don't know this could be a silly example you have your in-laws coming into town
00:54:01you don't really want them to stay at your house right how do you how do you do that you start to
00:54:07feel like oh well I need to they're going to be so upset and where they're going it's going to cause
00:54:11such a thing well if you also understand that you have agency and they get to choose what to do with
00:54:19those feelings you're going to come at a much healthier place and I think a lot of times we
00:54:24don't give the other person the choice of what to do with their feelings we have to we want to fix
00:54:30it all we want to tell them what to do with it so how would you navigate that situation what would
00:54:33you say if we're going to if somebody like my in-laws or something we're coming in
00:54:39I would simply say I need beginning with this the phrase I need I need to make sure that here
00:54:49in this whether this holiday season or whatever that we're prioritizing a lot of slowing things
00:54:56down and trying to keep things quieter in the house and I'm going to need y'all to find maybe I found
00:55:01another hotel that you can go enjoy that instead of having yeah exactly um a lot of times you we
00:55:11fall into the habit of people pleasing you know which I think is people pleasing to me is not a
00:55:19bad thing it's just you need to make sure that you're one of them you know you need to be able to
00:55:25also do what's acting in alignment with what you're wanting in other news I've been in the gym for
00:55:33nearly two decades now and it wasn't until the past few years that I had the best training run of my
00:55:39entire life and a huge part of that was the RP strength app actual scientists built this thing
00:55:44around one obsession having a science-backed path to maximizing muscle gain it tells you how many
00:55:50sets how many reps the amount of weight that you need to use so all you have to do is show up and
00:55:54do the thing it adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing and there
00:55:59are over 45 pre-made training programs and more than 250 technique videos built in so you're not
00:56:04just lifting you're lifting optimally to get the most out of your workouts a lot of the time I have
00:56:08less than an hour to be in the gym and what I love about the RP app is that it takes that into account
00:56:13and adjusts my workout on the fly so I know that I'm going to maximize how much time I've got
00:56:17available for me following a proper evidence-based plan has made a huge difference and if you're
00:56:23serious about training and the gains that you want to make I'm pretty sure that they'll do the same
00:56:26for you right now you can follow the exact same training plan that I use and get up to 50 off the
00:56:32RP hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com
00:56:37slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout that's rpstrength.com
00:56:42slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout I had this essay that you've kicked the trip wires
00:56:49off about 10 times so far today so I'm going to read you a little bit of this thought might be
00:56:53interesting I called it the shame of small fears oh okay imagine explaining modern fear to a caveman
00:56:59you see gruk people today get terrified when they have to send a message gruk blinks message carved
00:57:07on stone no it's a sentence on a glowing triangle enemy tribe see message no saber-tooth tiger smell
00:57:16message no then why fear well because the other person might think badly of me gruk cries laughing
00:57:29and yet that's the whole point we inherited a nervous system calibrated for lions and were
00:57:33using it to navigate awkward conversations and underwhelming careers evolution never updated the
00:57:38software it just repurposed it your ancestors needed courage to keep their bodies alive
00:57:44you need courage to keep your identity intact it's almost comic when you zoom out the same species
00:57:49that once stared down hungry predators now breaks into a sweat trying to say something needs to
00:57:55change but it's not because we've become pathetic it's because the monsters changed shape old dangers
00:58:01could kill your body the new ones threaten your belonging your whole biology gears up for exile
00:58:06from the village that now only exists as a group chat your body still thinks you'll die alone in
00:58:11the wilderness if you tell the truth it's the residue of a limbic system designed for a world
00:58:16that no longer exists that seems to be it's not about the fear it's about the shame in your fear
00:58:22a lot of the time i think people realize i i am the progeny of people who survived ice ages
00:58:30and i'm getting worried about having to tell this person that they crossed the line with me
00:58:35or having to enforce a boundary yeah hey i i've had a long year i'm stressed and
00:58:42i love your mother but she's a lot okay yeah and and and so her house is really great this
00:58:51time of year yeah i got a discount okay yeah uh but yeah it really is the case it's like um
00:59:00the sensitivity on a system it's the same reason that we have gyms we have gyms because we have
00:59:05removed the need to pick up heavy objects from our normal daily life right so we have to artificially
00:59:11create this thing and if it wasn't for the gym everybody would be flabby messes right and purposeful
00:59:16physical training because the whole stress on our system the whole whole mises has got turned down
00:59:22yeah it's kind of the same here too like your uh limbic system will attenuate itself to the maximum
00:59:30amount of discomfort that you have which means now that a hard conversation might be the most
00:59:34difficult thing that you do that year yeah like that one conversation firing that one member of
00:59:38staff might be dema so yeah yeah you're gonna feel it and i think what i'm trying to get out what i
00:59:44tried to get out with that incredibly long essay which i spared you the rest of is there's a lot of
00:59:49shame that people have around this this fear is so small why why do i feel like this you go well
00:59:58because it's still a big deal because yeah you have a limbic system that was made to avoid bears
01:00:05and is now worried about your belonging yeah i think most people
01:00:11they don't have a hard time with fighting they have a hard time being honest
01:00:18and it's funny how honesty can sometimes be the hardest thing that that you're going to do because
01:00:28you're laying bare your wants your needs whatever it is for your relationship for your business
01:00:34for the home for your friends whatever and it's the same the same exact thing as what the essay says
01:00:39like i i may not throw a punch but i'm gonna throw a word that's gonna hurt like i'm not gonna pick up
01:00:46a rock and throw it but i'm gonna want a word to cut you know i'm gonna want i get my words can
01:00:52either hurt you or heal you and if i self-improve everything about me but i don't improve what comes
01:01:00out of my mouth that's that's a formula one car without a steering wheel like it looks great that's
01:01:06awesome but where are you going to go with it and so i think if you don't apply the same type of
01:01:13mindset of improving your body as you do the words when we talk about emotional vocabulary when we
01:01:20talk about actually working through how to have conversations and being honest being dare i say
01:01:28vulnerable with things there's a lot of people who it's just they're an empty house but have a great
01:01:34looking landscape you know like you just can't you have to understand that the conversation like you
01:01:42said like you're going to have all year long those are much harder and take a lot more courage than
01:01:48anything you can do at the gym i agree i agree and i think a lot of the time people are going
01:01:53there precisely for that reason uh people will spend years in misery to avoid a few minutes of
01:02:01pain yeah they say that the the the conversation you're avoiding is the result you're choosing
01:02:11like if you if you if you choose not to have that conversation well you're getting that result then
01:02:16you're going to live with that result it didn't have to be that way and i think it's in therapy
01:02:22they say like the the breakthrough you're avoiding is like the work or yeah the the breakthrough
01:02:29you're needing is in the work you're avoiding the being able to get through that that conversation
01:02:35like you you can have you can be the fittest person but still the same on the inside it's not like it's
01:02:42improved anything about what you're gonna how you're gonna have um in your in your life and
01:02:49there's no metric that's the wildest thing if like we're able to watch our hrv make sure you're in all
01:02:56the zone 2 cardio and all the other stuff i got a whoop too like to be able to do all that physical
01:03:01discipline that's all great but there's no metric on sitting on the couch with your son in your lap
01:03:08and also having your phone in your hand you know what i mean or being able to say something really
01:03:14hard to the person that you love to mend relationships with family members you haven't seen
01:03:20in a long time that that's a whole lot different metric that there's just no number for it's a quiet
01:03:27victory a boring success yeah and yeah we trade observable metrics for hidden metrics all the time
01:03:36all the time you know you'll take a job that pays 10 grand more a year but is a 45-minute commute
01:03:46instead of 15 you go okay well you can't really see the commute in quite the same way yeah what does
01:03:51that mean and how much more stress do you you know i'm gonna have to miss a couple of evenings with
01:03:55the kids and i'm gonna spend less time with or you move to a new area in a house that's bigger
01:04:04but the stress of being there puts strain on your relationship and it means that you go to bed
01:04:07and the texture of your mind's a little bit more agitated yeah for a decade while you live there
01:04:12hidden metric observable metric postcode very observable peace of mind very hidden yeah and uh
01:04:19because there's this idea the macnamara fallacy do you know that so robert macnamara during the
01:04:25vietnam war he was charged with trying to uh make sure that the wall was moving in the right
01:04:30direction and what he was focusing on were enemy combatant deaths and u.s forces deaths but that
01:04:38wasn't what mattered what mattered was the sentiment at home the issue was very hard to
01:04:43quantify the sentiment at home in the u.s and obviously the vietnam war was hugely unpopular
01:04:48domestically in the u.s and it ends with this line which is we intend to uh measure what matters but
01:05:01instead we only matter what matters to us is only what we can measure so this weird inversion of us
01:05:10supposedly trying to focus on the quantifiable and pull it in instead whatever is quantifiable
01:05:16is what what gets pulled in exactly yeah it's it's um i think there's a lot of different paradoxes
01:05:21like that in life like for me what i've learned through this transition from full-time lawyer
01:05:28being able to talk on communication is i thought it was what's best for the business is what's best
01:05:38for the family like i could look at these hard metric numbers whether it's more money more time
01:05:44or whatever the however the increase more more more 10x whatever is best for my family when
01:05:50in reality what's best for the family is what's best for the business what's best for the family
01:05:55what's best for business and like that's not something i can track but that's something
01:05:59mara fallacy yeah but it's something i can feel unreal what about if you're having a conversation
01:06:04with someone and it feels like they're not understanding you it's getting frustrating
01:06:11yeah if you go okay i'm trying to i'm not saying this the right way and you feel like there's
01:06:17the butting up against that in that time then i would take it piece by piece so i would
01:06:25one are you giving them the takeaway are you giving the headline at the beginning or are
01:06:30you putting it down in the footnotes so one is how are you approaching the conversation how are
01:06:35you framing the conversation because if you've buried the lead like you said that is typically
01:06:40going to lead into a lot of miscommunication next i would question the the biggest like myth
01:06:49in communication is what is sent is what is received i all the time i can in my own relationship
01:06:57she could say wait no you said this i didn't say that you said yes you did no that's not what i
01:07:03said i wish i had a video camera in here so i could have seen exactly how you said that
01:07:08so you could see and and instead of this mindset of that's not what i said
01:07:14and trying to push that miscommunication instead ask what did you hear what did you hear and if i
01:07:22can ask the question what did you hear and them to actually explain what i'm hearing is x y and z you
01:07:27got to stop okay that right there that's not at all my intent i think that's where we're going wrong
01:07:32so it's it's the ability to one slow down to find the actual breaking point and that that usually
01:07:42requires a okay here is what i'm trying to convey i'm not asking you to fix anything i just need you
01:07:48to hear that this means something to me and sometimes the other person's like oh okay so you
01:07:52want me to do this oh you want me to do this well you may fix this like no no no i don't know no i
01:07:56need let's go back again okay what are you hearing and they go well i hear that you need me to go i
01:08:01guess i'll never be able to do this again no no that's not at all right usually when people are
01:08:06going to extremes or absolutes the always and nevers is a very clear sign that they're not
01:08:12engaged in the conversation instead they're playing an old script that is well then you just you just
01:08:17want me to do everything you want me to do um and so if you're able to actually break it down
01:08:22and go piece by piece okay what did you hear at this oma this here this is this is the miscommunication
01:08:28okay when i bring this up what's coming up for you because i can tell something else is happening
01:08:32like then you get into a little bit of the emotion of it of where where are you feeling defensive so
01:08:39when i can voice that this other person's voicing i can tell i'm getting defensive i can tell i'm
01:08:44not ready for this conversation i can tell i'm getting worked up like that's really helpful
01:08:49information i think i saw some study on if it was like if somebody's heart beats over 100 bpm
01:08:55like it's almost impossible to like bring somebody back down very quickly like it's
01:09:00not a good time to have a very yeah yeah over 100 bpm your front brain is basically turned off it's
01:09:07gone yeah and and you're having to make sure that the other persons they're going to quickly be
01:09:12dysregulated in that moment have you seen jared can you pull that up uh just search uh reddit
01:09:22divorce heart rate on google and um this guy i think he was wearing like a garment or something
01:09:31and he tracked his heart rate through the conversation yes that he had with his wife
01:09:38and the reason i say it is you're going 100 bpm 100 bpm is heart rate in five second intervals when
01:09:44wife asks for a divorce i love those but via fitbit charge too it's like it's a sponsored post
01:09:53uh yeah resting bpm dude he's got he's got a nice resting bpm he's down at 60 and he's awake he's a
01:09:58fit guy he's doing great yeah well he's got a fitbit charge too on so he's obviously been tracking for
01:10:02a while can we talk can we talk keeps him quite uh he's regulating he's so hang on what are the
01:10:09interval that's five minutes five minute intervals at the bottom okay is this 1 15 in the fucking
01:10:15morning i think that's 1 15 in the morning unless it's on it's 24 hours yeah it should be on military
01:10:20time yeah you're right um and uh okay can we talk he manages to hold on to it timing has a lot to do
01:10:26with this yeah that's true yeah yeah yeah um there's a spike just before i don't think this is healthy
01:10:34for either of us so she's can we talk and a full what's that six minutes later she's still not given
01:10:42the lead unless he's well there's no way that's got to be the spike now look yeah you see the spike
01:10:46right before the dip before i don't think this healthy for either of us most likely that's like his
01:10:50anxiety he's realizing what's going on i could tell something's wrong because he's kept regulated that
01:10:55right yeah bro he hits one 155 160 he's in zone three or four depending on how old he is and then
01:11:04he has a huge drop then it picks back up again i wonder if that's just a release yeah fuck you just
01:11:13got the news and now he's like what am i gonna do yeah i think there is that release of like knowledge
01:11:19of now i know because i mean maybe it came out but look he comes right back at it i mean he's right
01:11:24there close so 150 again and how long does the whole thing take 115 resting bpm can we talk 120
01:11:3020 minutes dude 20 20 minutes they're in and out and he's off on a walk so yeah yeah anybody that
01:11:38thinks that 100 bpm is uh is hard to hit in a difficult conversation it's not hard homeboy
01:11:43managed to get 150 of that yep went off for a walk good good that's a good one it's gonna hit last
01:11:50call somewhere real quick exactly dude i remember the first ever thanksgiving that i did in uh
01:11:57america i was living at airbnb on south congress and it's directly opposite the red rose austin's
01:12:04premier adult establishment and um it was i'd been to i'd been to blair white's house if you know
01:12:12blair white is it's a uncomfortably hot trans influencer uh and lex friedman was there with
01:12:20michael matt it was a very strange event of autistic avengers assemble and then we got back to
01:12:26where i was staying at the airbnb this is 10 p.m 10 30 p.m or something on thanksgiving and the entire
01:12:37car park was full all of the street outside was completely full it was like it must have been
01:12:42standing room only in the strep club and i remember thinking how bad your thanksgiving had to be
01:12:51at 10 p.m to go that's it i'm sick are your parents that i i cannot any longer be i'm going i'm going
01:12:59i'm going to the red rose again are you off to see crystal oh i hope she'll cook your fucking dinner
01:13:05and wash your socks and i was like okay here we go well i i just the british mind cannot comprehend
01:13:11what level of freedom americans have apparently around thanksgiving including being able to go
01:13:16to the red rose tempe holidays are are hard for people and thanksgiving's hard christmas is hard
01:13:22usually because it can be sometimes a reminder that they're alone and um i mean there's no place
01:13:29lonelier than a strip club yeah yeah you can be surrounded by people and still feel very alone
01:13:35and that's why what you're looking for some very illusion of companionship you know so they they uh
01:13:43they're they're in pain and they're looking for some way to find a salve how should people respond
01:13:51to an insult with a lot of silence you say something ugly to me i'm going to give it about
01:13:58five to seven seconds of nothing i mean i'm going to allow your words as if i see them just to fall
01:14:05to the this table here and give you a moment of like you give that like you still you still proud
01:14:13of that right there you can take it back if you like but i'm not taking it and it's that it's that
01:14:20that mindset of i'm not taking it i don't have to pick it up that's not mine because we get so used
01:14:25to catching just because somebody threw we feel like we automatically have to catch it's like
01:14:29it's not it's not tennis it's not volleyball you don't have to hit it back over a net you can just
01:14:35let it be there so five to seven seconds of nothing in that silence two what i like to do
01:14:41is usually ask them to repeat it yeah that's i usually will say i need you to i need you to say
01:14:51that again i've yet to have anybody who could do it because it's like they they they don't want to show
01:15:03they're ugly they don't want that highlighted they don't they know what they just said and now what
01:15:09they were expecting was that hit a dopamine of me giving it right back to them and feeling that
01:15:14sense of control i've now put a big spotlight on their behavior and then it's just it's not fun
01:15:21at that point they're like i gotta get out of here like that's was that wasn't the hit that i was
01:15:26expecting and when i say i need you to repeat that i need you to say that again
01:15:32they're gonna have to remember their words and regurgitate them and that usually
01:15:39it's people don't like to extend past this feeling of being reasonable now i know people will go oh i
01:15:45know what lots of people are unreasonable listen i have deposed probably thousands of people
01:15:50i've seen lots of liars and manipulators they never want to come across as unreasonable yeah yeah
01:15:56people who are like manipulating you they're not afraid of of anger they're afraid of calm
01:16:06and whenever i can show you that i'm not rising and going how dare you like getting this who do
01:16:15you think you are kind of bow up um it's almost more scary to them if you i need you to say that
01:16:23again now most of the time what they do is they try and like well i mean what i mean i mean they
01:16:30try to like justify exactly uh and try and adjust in some way or i guess they could double down if
01:16:36they do double down and repeat it then you get to say i thought so thanks like just let it go because
01:16:42at that point you're still just leaving them they're going to remember what they said and you're not
01:16:48going to be the one to remember it at all so it's dad another that i like to ask is it's this did you
01:16:53mean did you mean for that to sound as insulting as it did did you mean for that to embarrass me
01:17:00in some way did you mean for that to offend me or hurt me or belittle me or did you did
01:17:06you want me to feel less when you said that whenever you talk about intents that did you mean
01:17:12did you intend to did you say that in order to it questions the very root of their heart in that
01:17:20moment of like why did they really say that and they said that to hurt you to cause that pain and
01:17:26at the same time maybe you just took it the wrong way like in text message usually we have a way of
01:17:33reading everything negative in a text message we never read things positive right you i i could text
01:17:39you we need to talk and nobody gets that and goes yeah like sick yes let's go let's chris wants to
01:17:47talk let's let's get after it let's go uh we always read the negative and so did you mean is also a
01:17:53great way of double checking did you mean for that to sound like my wife and i if i sometimes reply
01:18:00really quickly she'll say did you mean for that to sound short no no i didn't mean i was just in the
01:18:05middle of pickup or i was at a grocery line or whatever it's you're allowing that that benefit
01:18:10of the doubt for a second in both of those situations uh where it's not ambiguous about
01:18:20whether or not that was a mean message or not right what you're doing is bringing the person's ugliness
01:18:25to the front yep because yeah you're right even when people say mean things
01:18:35they feel justified in their meanness you deserved it right oh i'm righteous somehow and
01:18:44with enough room for the heat to die down a little bit three four five six
01:18:56fuck yeah exactly it's a long time yeah very yeah yeah yeah uh and to then basically say do the thing
01:19:06again but without the heat that powered it when you did it the first time right like you you've run out
01:19:12of fuel exactly and you're now gonna have to look at it in a more sterile environment right more
01:19:19plain environment and i'm just gonna ask i'm not gonna infer i'm gonna ask whether the outcome
01:19:29that happened after you said that thing was what you meant and that is you admitting to your own
01:19:35intent right around this exactly it's like you um like imagine having to ask a girl out and she's
01:19:43like well i didn't hear you uh never mind like you don't want to you don't want to ask it again
01:19:47it's that feeling of like i already i already said it said you're so hot yeah yeah exactly
01:19:53that's right um and then all of a sudden you realize no that that didn't feel good at all
01:20:00and now it's now they just they don't want the cheese they just want out of the trap you know
01:20:05they just give me get me out of here and they're not they're not going to want to do that because
01:20:09the making them say it again is just it's just revealing they're ugly and darkness hates light
01:20:17you know you were talking about inviting someone to what are you hearing what are you hearing from
01:20:23me what is it what what did you just hear me say yeah how are you interpreting that you know the
01:20:27idea of a steel man and a straw man right so straw man representing the weakest version of someone's
01:20:32argument steel man me saying so we're in a debate but what i think you're trying to say is and i put
01:20:42across the best version the best possible version of your argument that's good what you're doing
01:20:47with the invitation is like a reverse steel man or an invited steel man saying can you tell me
01:20:54what you're hearing me say yes and then ah okay so no not quite and the same thing with the reason
01:21:02that you do the steel man is so i go okay so jeffson what i'm hearing from you is this and
01:21:09this and this is that right and you go well actually no you're just saying hey do the steel
01:21:15man thing for me yeah and then if there's anything that's not fully understood and you're doing the
01:21:20same thing with the insult to a degree it's like inviting this person to almost steel man the own
01:21:28the nuclear warhead that they just dropped on you right you know and probably more like a septic tank
01:21:33than a nuclear warhead uh you know yeah exactly you know this big puddle of shit that's in front
01:21:40of us yeah yeah is that shit yeah or is it soup because i can't to me it smells the same smells
01:21:46a lot like shit yeah and uh just making sure that we're not confused i'm not confusing what this is
01:21:54yeah there's a lot of there's actually this like hidden power around tell me what i'm missing tell
01:22:03me what i like i'm missing something here something else is going on and then you tell me what i'm
01:22:08missing so lots of times i'll be in a deposition and i'll have somebody who is i know i've caught
01:22:15them in a lie there's lots of people lying under oath all the time and they have no problem with it
01:22:21and because i know because i have the evidence right here and they just don't know that i have it
01:22:26and so it's often the people who it's most blatant like they it's just an easy they didn't have to lie
01:22:34about it like they could have just fallen on the sword but they're they're so contradictory that
01:22:39they can't possibly not so if it's like if i were to tell you i feel like you're really upset and
01:22:46they go i'm not upset i'm just like it doesn't matter what emotion i said they're gonna always
01:22:51tell me i know it's not that i'm i'm okay it's just i'm it doesn't matter what it is they're always
01:22:56going to contradict that and so when i know i'm up against that kind of person you have to do this
01:23:03searching with like where questions matter a whole lot more than statements
01:23:09meaning if i'm going to ask a question that is more open-ended i'm getting i'm signaling to this
01:23:18aspect of what am i missing here i hear you telling me this i'm missing where you're getting to that
01:23:26same way with the insult what am i you say that i'm you know the whatever the worst thing
01:23:33i need you to say that again because something's missing because it's not hitting me the same way
01:23:39you want it to hit me so where is that coming from and and that right there is the the wamp feeling
01:23:47you know the blanket wet blanket exactly sad emoji for them of like i've it didn't it didn't work what
01:23:54was missing was they were actually intending to cause pain because they're in pain and it
01:23:58felt better for them to cause you pain than actually deal with their own emotions it's a much more
01:24:04sophisticated approach than even trying to lean into empathy immediately if you'd say it sounds like that
01:24:12it sounds like you're really upset when someone says something mean because that feels like an
01:24:17elevated kind of communication yeah it could be sarcastic yeah but yeah but even if you say it
01:24:23you know um genuinely go feels like you're upset when you're doing that also like uh
01:24:31you're putting a kind of interpretation on this person's language as opposed to just allowing them
01:24:40to clarify it for you and i keep on having this image in my head of giving somebody a ton of rope
01:24:46are you just giving them as much rope as they want and they can choose to climb up it and get out or
01:24:50they can hang themselves with it yeah i i see this a lot in depositions or cross-examination where i
01:24:57know that they're lying i know they are and i could just say you're lying you think that's going to get
01:25:03them to admit it no never they're gonna they're gonna double down how dare you accuse me of
01:25:10whatever because they don't but if they tell the lie and i slow it down and i open a folder and i look
01:25:19and i close and i give that five to seven seconds and i say i need you to tell me that again i mean
01:25:26they just go uh uh i mean i mean why would you why would you think i would do this like they start
01:25:31questioning things that don't really why you think that i would do something like that what do you
01:25:36think like they're asking you to like solve the solve the problem i'm gonna get done that give
01:25:40me a suit you come up here exactly yeah yeah and so it's um it's liars manipulators they they want
01:25:50the anger but they fear the calm and so when you're able to in those moments of somebody doing something
01:25:56offensive to show a calm controlled approach that's what they don't like like imagine you saying
01:26:06something that's a lie and i'm saying yeah i'm gonna need to come back to that later like it's
01:26:15the worst because they want you to swallow hook line and sinker they like the fast rapid they took
01:26:21it that's also closure for sure right it's open loops so much of this is there's the loops that
01:26:26have been left open for small amounts of time or for even longer amounts of time they're the ones
01:26:30that things are going on the insult thing british people have a trend of pushing and pushing and then
01:26:37saying only joking mate don't you joke how do you deal with someone who pushes you and then retreats
01:26:44to i was just joking it depends how well you know them i think if if for some of these responses
01:26:53like if somebody says i was just joking i usually like to say then i need you to be funnier that's
01:26:58what i usually say or i'll say that i need you to find new material you know then we need to
01:27:04read let's workshop that one then a little bit but if it's something that you feel like they are
01:27:10maybe you don't know them that well and they say hey i'm i'm i'm just i'm just joking
01:27:16i don't let it i don't like it to slide meaning you just go oh okay that's that's fine and then
01:27:23you know they're just going to walk over you again like that's we're not going to walk on eggshells
01:27:28with that but if you're to say i know that wasn't a joke or it's not a didn't sound like a joke
01:27:33sounds like an issue like that's a lot so much of this is being the bigger person in conversation
01:27:41and that often means to be the most courageous in the conversation and that's a hard thing to do
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01:28:48athletic brewing company fit for all times do you think are the most common phrases that make people
01:28:54sound weak usually beginning with like i'm sorry but that's one that i'm sorry but you don't really
01:29:06mean it i don't mean any disrespect but i don't want this to sound rude but yeah you do or else
01:29:14you wouldn't be saying it like that you just delete those and say what you need to say from
01:29:21after the button from after the button exactly that's it's it's just hedging another is where
01:29:26people they cut out the legs underneath their sentences before they even get them out like
01:29:31i hate to bother you but um i mean i could be wrong about this but i mean you probably know
01:29:37better than me but it's all these like hedging that makes them sound really really weak in the
01:29:43conversation that is something that's it's it's it's unnecessary a lot of the i thinks i believes
01:29:50i think in casual conversation it's not a problem but if you're wanting to sound assertive
01:29:57the i thinks and i believes you can just replace them with i'm confident that
01:30:01instead of like i believe i'd be a good asset to this company it's i'm confident i'd be a good asset
01:30:08to this company and they'd write down man he sounds so confident you know it's it's just it's
01:30:14pure language choice you know i learned from my academic friends i hedge sometimes because i'm
01:30:23wholly unqualified to talk about pretty much everything i talk about and it's important to
01:30:27caveat especially if you're like for sure i'm in bro science territory here yeah i learned uh that
01:30:34academics have an equivalent for that they say it's directionally correct that directionally correct
01:30:43dude is the fucking hey 51 49 or 99 1 i'm directionally correct either way if i know that
01:30:50this is at least in this side of the fence i got it i love i it's directionally correct that men are
01:31:00stronger than women on average yeah the upper body strength on average as well is wonderful
01:31:04you hide so many things and say anything on on average on average yeah i mean on average
01:31:09you just literally need to be better than 50 percent right yeah so yeah it's a it's a good
01:31:14start you mentioned um assertiveness yeah where does self-assurance come from in your opinion
01:31:24it's tied a lot to confidence so i i teach that confidence is as assertive does i mean if you
01:31:32want to feel more confident you need to say more assertive things and most often we get taught and
01:31:39seen that the most confident people are the loudest the i don't know the bro-est of any of it when it's
01:31:46actually the person who's the most controlled the one who's the calmest careful derogating the bros
01:31:52exactly yeah not at all not at all would never if like being able to say who's going to be the most
01:32:01emotionally reactive when things hit the fan because they will hit the fan yeah um and making sure that
01:32:08how do you know if you're who's the captain of the ship it's who has the highest threshold
01:32:13for conflict you know that that's that's going to be one of the biggest markers right there like
01:32:20confident people don't need to say it to know that for you to know it like i don't have to say it to
01:32:25make sure that i know it or you know it i um i think my grandfather told me once of like little
01:32:32dogs yip at everything but big dogs only have to bark once like it's that kind of mentality of
01:32:38knowing that i don't i don't have to have a comment for every little thing the most fucking texan quote
01:32:45of all time little dogs and big dogs that's right little dogs yep big dogs bark yeah exactly uh have
01:32:54you heard the term vagal authority no but it sounds like something i would learn and it sounds like
01:33:01something that you would love so joe hudson who charlie introduced me to he's got this idea of
01:33:07vagal authority and what he means is in a room or in your interaction whose nervous system is dictating
01:33:15how everybody else moves everybody's in different levels some people are at eights some people are
01:33:21at threes where does the room go especially in a one-on-one who's got the vagal authority
01:33:29between the two of us interesting so who's who's the um the thermostat yeah who's dictating this
01:33:35who's the thermostat oh i mean you're yeah you're the host so oh well fuck me i'm not gonna i'm not
01:33:41gonna measure you in who's got more vagal authority because i am going to lose um but i just love that
01:33:48term the first time that he ever said it i thought vagal authority is i think that's right is such a
01:33:54wonderful way to think about what it is so we talk about nervous system capacity emotional resilience
01:34:00and that sounds great but it's very abstract vagal authority and just defining it as in an interaction
01:34:09whose nervous system is in charge right are you both going to compromise and meet in the middle
01:34:15right are you going to stay where you are are you going down to where that i mean obviously you could
01:34:19have vagal authority at nate and be like hey come up to me um but assuming that you're coming at
01:34:28this from the right side of the fence it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about is your
01:34:35version of vagal authority that's probably right there's a lot of conversation the same way they
01:34:41say show up like you've been there before the same way in conversation uh meaning you can you can say
01:34:47something and have an emotional reaction and well like we talked about the very beginning those that
01:34:52beautiful moment of like my capacity is large enough to take any of this and all of this and so if you're
01:34:59in a meeting and you walk in who's the thermostat who's going to be controlling the temperature of
01:35:04the room and if you're the one that has to chime in on every single thing who's emotionally reactive
01:35:12at the smallest the smallest little inconvenience uh somebody who it's it's usually
01:35:18if somebody like cusses a lot there's it's usually a sign of emotional reactivity of like i'm getting
01:35:28really hyped or low on something oh they're british yeah or they're british yeah sure and to be able to
01:35:35versus the person who has a very high threshold the where they don't say everything they could say like
01:35:44they have a pain but they don't need to voice it in other words for it to have any validity they know
01:35:50that they know it they don't have to name drop they know that they have value they don't have to talk
01:35:54about how much their company sold for like they they don't need to say it they know what kind of
01:36:00car they drive without having to be flashy like it's it's the it's the understatement of knowing that
01:36:06you know walk silently with the big stare what is it that makes someone sound composed
01:36:11a calm voice there's a voice that sounds warm voice that sounds in a lower register
01:36:20words that are spaced out more if i talk really fast all the time and you can't really catch up
01:36:26with my message i'm really like just i it's gonna naturally make you more anxious and we all have
01:36:32those people in our life that just to be around them you feel a little bit more anxiety um those
01:36:39tend to be people who are the sky is falling we have to have they're very very fast when they talk
01:36:46they're very quick to make judgments and choices and decisions about how they're going to feel and
01:36:50how this is going to go versus slowing it down weighing and knowing that the best type of choices
01:36:58are ones that have been intentionally thought of like let's say for example if you ask me a
01:37:04question and i immediately just have an answer right off the bat versus you ask me a question
01:37:10and i take a breath and i think about it and then i answer which one sounds more composed it's not
01:37:20going to be the one that's all hyped up it's going to be the one that's a little bit more slower like
01:37:26you think of people that who are the most composed in your life they're generally the people that
01:37:35make you feel the most comfortable and to me i like the aspect i've always compared it to
01:37:41just a feeling of warm feeling of you're welcome here yeah you can disagree with disagree with me
01:37:49that's welcome too no i i see it between nice guy and good man a nice guy wants to be liked
01:37:58a good man wants to be worthy like how do i how do i show you my words
01:38:04that you're worth my time and this conversation is worth my time i do that not by trying to rush
01:38:08you out the door or look for the next person to talk to while i'm talking to you at the networking
01:38:12event or small talk so i'm i'm choosing to give you my time what's the difference between being
01:38:18assertive and being an asshole assertiveness says i can respect you and i can respect the other person
01:38:26or respect myself let me say that differently so there's like a spectrum of somebody who's passive
01:38:32versus most aggressive and then assertiveness is in the middle aggressive aggression says i don't
01:38:37respect you so my passive says i don't respect me assertiveness saying i can respect both of us
01:38:44meaning i can lay up my boundary and i can still like you like i mean my dad would say all the time
01:38:53you know i'm i need to discipline you now i love you now i i need to i need to do this i need to
01:38:58have this conversation and it's because i love you that i'm going to have this conversation
01:39:02and when you come to terms with i can want all the good things for you and also say i'm not going to
01:39:12tolerate that both things can be true what about being an asshole what about it i think a lot of the
01:39:21time when people think they're being assertive they are leaning into assholery and is that a word
01:39:30correct okay of the two of us i'm aware that you've done a thousand plus two thousand depositions but
01:39:35uh it's our language yeah yeah yeah i will remind you it's our language yeah yeah yeah although it
01:39:41is my taxes and your country so i better be careful um a lot of the time people mistake brusqueness
01:39:51and uh callousness like like socially acceptable callousness it's the same as being assertive
01:39:58i'm going to say this thing in a way that's unnecessarily terse or or cutting or
01:40:08unconsiderate i think that's the same as being assertive and a lot of the time i see people who
01:40:16are assholes that people see as unlikable assertive people if that makes sense yeah
01:40:25think a lot of the time the boundary of asshole and assertiveness
01:40:30functionally can sometimes deliver the same outcome which is i'm going to say you bully the person into
01:40:39getting what you want but you you sort of state you you state your intention without apology
01:40:47right that's something that the asshole and the assertive person have in common
01:40:50but the difference is that the assertive person is doing it from a place of compromise pro-socialness
01:40:58the asshole is doing it almost to show off to look good to be unconsiderate what that's it one is
01:41:06considerate and the other is unconsiderate at least as far as i can see yeah and i'd say one is selfish
01:41:12the other can also be supporting i mean it's i would say that the person who wants to
01:41:17be assertive has both people in mind the other does not so i think the considerate inconsiderate
01:41:24the the person who always has to win the argument is the person who typically loses everything
01:41:32you've got uh 10 specific ways to practice assertiveness what is the one that most people skip
01:41:41oh being intentional with your words meaning they find that the more words they use the more
01:41:47believable they'll sound and just the opposite it's it's this idea of the more words you have to
01:41:53use to tell the truth the more it starts to sound like a lie more it sounds like you don't really
01:41:59know what you're talking about the more words you have to use to explain something that should be
01:42:03relatively easy to explain so excessiveness oversharing saying too much it's a very quick
01:42:12way to miscommunication because you're giving them the do you know i don't do you know golden corrals
01:42:19like buffets ever heard of those it's not a place you'd probably go to but i like
01:42:25movies hold hold your thought on golden corrals and where you're going okay i need i need to i need to
01:42:31make this statement to a person who's lived in the south of america america for a good while okay
01:42:35as a british person i feel i have a more accurate understanding of american cuisine than americans
01:42:43do that's probably true and this is because denny's and i hop and cheesecake factory are elite
01:42:51establishments good thank you okay you do understand so many americans look down their nose at what are
01:42:58objectively wonderful places to go and eat denny's coffee at two in the morning unlimited refills yeah
01:43:05cinnamon pancakes don't you dare fantastic it's very good very good very good as thea vaughan once
01:43:12said uh you can see a woman giving birth in there sometimes you know you just don't know what you're
01:43:19gonna get you never know sometimes yeah i hope so um so golden corral as yet not been too however
01:43:26i did go to a crack barrel i really like nice i want to go i only want that game pegged pegging
01:43:32oh no let's not go there it's the it's the game that's like a wooden triangle and you have the
01:43:37t's that's like yeah that's not the pegging that i'm familiar yeah no no you're you would be i don't
01:43:42know again british yeah um what i did like and i refuse now to go to any restaurant where i can't
01:43:51buy any item of furniture or art on the wall yeah there's a little general store i want to go i want
01:43:57to go i want to be like how much is that it's the videos sir that's that's somebody's daughter she's
01:44:01not for sale now like i don't care she looks like she's pinned on the wall that's going to be that's
01:44:05that's good she would look wonderful above the fireplace yeah okay you can have all the blankets
01:44:09and you know i'm gonna take it all pop guns that you want i'm gonna take it all uh golden corral
01:44:13yeah we were talking about um where sometimes you're giving people too many options to choose
01:44:19in the conversation meaning the meaning is going to get lost your cheesecake factory menu you're
01:44:23uh absolutely yeah exactly any way we can talk more about the cheesecake factory i'm all for it
01:44:27i'm so glad i found a kindred spirit i knew i liked it but now i really like it really yeah let's just
01:44:32talk about the cheesecake menu let's just read that um yeah exactly you're giving people too many
01:44:38options um and that often will lead to miscommunication because they're picking and choosing
01:44:44what you're trying exactly to say and so you don't want to don't leave what your intention is
01:44:51in the conversation up to the other person to guess you need to be sufficiently too much
01:44:56correct and that and that is what will often lead to the most unassertive communication because you're
01:45:02you can say a lot and still not say anything oh i've got one to add to your list of ways that people
01:45:09sound weak or at the very least imprecise and difficult to understand in a conversation they
01:45:15ask a question and i noticed this with new podcasters when they begin because they're
01:45:20uncomfortable with sitting in silence they're uncomfortable with asking a question especially
01:45:24potentially a tough question and then leaving it after the question mark so let's say something like
01:45:29jeffson you're a trial lawyer and that means that sometimes you need to represent people that have
01:45:36done bad things how do you feel about that do you feel uh and then immediately jump on it they give
01:45:43you a couple of options the problem with doing that especially as a podcaster is that i am imposing a
01:45:51duality i've compressed the infinity of answers that you could have given me down into two choices
01:45:57yeah and in order for you to pick the third one that might be true you have to say no no and this
01:46:04and most people just go well yeah it's kind of like that because it's easier right so here's two
01:46:09paths that i've carved for you pick which one and they're usually relatively okay it's an estimation
01:46:14of where i think you might go you're like it's your job it's a very important service do you think do
01:46:19you see it as your job as an important service or do you do you not take that work home with you or
01:46:23whatever that does sound very british when you're doing it sounds like a bbc interview that's crazy
01:46:26oh yeah i like uh piers morgan yeah oh nice piers morgan but with a functioning hip um you said
01:46:32earlier i've got to bring this up you said earlier on about people that duel you know that the front
01:46:36benches in the house of lords the green bench is where all of our politicians sit and talk
01:46:43waffle um the distance between the two front benches is the same as a broadsword held out
01:46:50at arm's length no way yeah so if you do that again and then on the other side that's the the
01:46:55distance between the two which tells you everything that you need to know about how politics works yeah
01:46:59exactly yeah we're very very uh very sensitive yeah uh being right is overrated what's that mean
01:47:07yeah it means you know we've heard these phrases of do you want to choose to be right do you want
01:47:14to choose to be happy you know do you want to choose to be the person who always has to be
01:47:19right usually that's a person who's also the loneliest like if you have to be right in this
01:47:25one particular argument like and we all have these kind of like silly arguments we might have
01:47:30like my brothers and i might get into an argument about a movie you know whatever who's what's the
01:47:36best movie on whatever whatever and you can sure that i'm not talking about that i'm talking like
01:47:41a serious argument that you're having with somebody who matters to you and you have to be right on it
01:47:45and you're refusing to back down and then they eventually go you know what have it you got it
01:47:50you're right congratulations and that moment lasts for about a millisecond and then you're just kind of
01:47:57left with feeling like an idiot maybe because you can continue to win arguments but also lose the
01:48:04relationship because nobody wants to be with somebody who's always has to be right it's it
01:48:08shows more of an insecurity than it does intellect so what should we prioritize instead of being right
01:48:15connection it's the ability to see perspectives and understand i'd say appreciating somebody's
01:48:24perspective is an underrated skill meaning i don't have to agree with it i can still hear it
01:48:30so rather than saying i don't i don't agree with that which is me commenting on your point i can say
01:48:40i see things differently that's me commenting on your perspective very different and so when i'm
01:48:46able to use words of perspective like huh i see that differently i have i have a different take
01:48:53on that i look at that different perspective i get there another way people go huh okay then what do
01:48:59you what do you see what do you believe oh okay rather than them having to they don't have to have
01:49:04their sword and shield defender exactly they don't have to defend it now they get to go oh okay
01:49:08they're not trying to attack me they just they go about it a different way how do they go it's very
01:49:14inviting yeah perspectives are what allow you to have conversations of understanding i mean rather
01:49:21than i i can't stand it when somebody goes i just don't understand how they could possibly believe
01:49:27that like i don't i just don't get how their mind could even under and it's like did you try like
01:49:31have you asked like how how they came to i don't think people mean that a lot of the time yeah
01:49:37people what people are saying is i am sufficiently morally superior to that person that my theory of
01:49:45mind wouldn't even allow me to understand how somebody could vote for donald trump or do whatever
01:49:51yep or kamala harris or you support this this perspective yeah it's because they do they feel
01:49:57this superiority of i'm obviously right they're obviously wrong how could they not see from look
01:50:02at how right i am i'm so right that they're essentially different species in a different
01:50:06universe to me right uh it's like you know what it makes me think about it makes me think about
01:50:11empathy so we're talking about the ability to feel and understand somebody else's emotions
01:50:16but this is a lot of people are able to do that like type one empathy we could call it uh i can
01:50:23feel and understand your emotions whilst not having type two empathy which is understanding how you
01:50:29arrived at your perspective yes and believing that you arrived there too right you know like and i
01:50:35think a lot of the time people stop type one empathy is similar to anger there are a whole
01:50:41bunch of people who are kind of infected with empathy there's an entire book paul bloom wrote
01:50:45called against empathy it's like why you shouldn't have it he optimizes for something else but
01:50:50it's funny to think about how you might be able to feel somebody else's emotions either by choice
01:50:59or not by choice but it's much harder to say i understand why they arrived at that perspective
01:51:05i understand how they arrived even if i don't hold it myself it's a different kind of yeah maybe
01:51:10empathy is the wrong word but it feels like a the symmetry between those two things even when you
01:51:15share your opinion on something the way we typically share it is very guarded because we're kind of
01:51:21gauging if it's a new opinion or something you don't know if the room's going to be friendly to it
01:51:25you might for example hedge you might try and add a lot to show this is a justified opinion you have
01:51:31lots of evidence for it so we we come at it already from a very defensive position because we say this
01:51:38is my opinion by which i feel very special and this is my treasured opinion and i'm going to do
01:51:43anything i can to protect it so if you come at it with a different opinion that's unlike mine well
01:51:49okay how can i make sure that i preserve what i believe to the exclusion of what you believe and
01:51:54so how do i do that is like juries and confirmation bias or all kinds of different sympathies that we
01:51:58have of we usually stick with what we know first and it takes a lot of time and a lot of conversations
01:52:04for us to change that outlook and so a lot of the times you'll have a jury or juror who makes up the
01:52:11decision within the first three minutes and then all they're doing is filtering all the evidence
01:52:15that comes forward if you know anybody that hears an opinion or a bad thing that's happened in the news
01:52:20about somebody political and they go oh well they probably just and they totally dismiss it
01:52:25and because like we said facts and evidence don't matter why do you think modern culture
01:52:30is so obsessed with being right winning debates because what of what is our worth if we're not
01:52:39right if because we nobody thinks that they're on the side of wrong nobody goes into something
01:52:44thinking that they're the enemy or they're thinking about it the wrong way nobody wants to go i'm
01:52:49thinking about this the wrong way yes i am and they just stick with that they all think that they have
01:52:53their own way about it and so i think we're obsessed about it because what value does one
01:53:00derive from if we don't feel that we're walking in accordance of either good or evil yeah i've had a
01:53:07lot of communication experts on talking about detecting deception what's realistic and true
01:53:14about working out whether someone's lying to you or not evidence i mean if you don't yeah like a
01:53:20fucking true trial lawyer no yeah a nerd yeah yeah let's say you don't have that let's say you don't
01:53:26have that i think i it is very hard there are people who are excellent liars i would say that
01:53:34liars cannot they love rebuttals they hate silence and so if they've said something that's a lie
01:53:43and you allow that to sit or you say i need to come back to this that that feeling of not being able to
01:53:52accept it here's a cue that tells you if really somebody is lying it's that they can't stand that
01:54:00you don't believe them people who are telling the truth know it's the truth and if you don't believe
01:54:06it then well okay i'm at peace because i'm telling the truth but those who know that it's a lie
01:54:13usually will have this unproportional response of how dare you not possibly believe me and how could
01:54:22you rather than having the confidence of the truth is a truth like the truth needs no excuse right
01:54:30and so it's this element of those that are probably not saying all of the truth show up in ways that
01:54:39are they're going to question you they're going to ask you what you think they should be doing what
01:54:45would you what do you think i'd well if i wasn't here what do you think i was doing you told me
01:54:49well you think usually question it like a very basic question of were you you know did you drink
01:54:54nutonic did i drink nutonic like you've the answer is always yeah the answer is always yes you did of
01:54:59course um i'm just i'm fueling my focus right um and and so they question it they get upset about it
01:55:08and they usually won't let it go because they they want they would rather harm you than be honest
01:55:15yeah that makes sense it's almost like uh
01:55:20it's almost like somebody is trying to lay down it's similar to anger it's reminding me the same
01:55:30of this outsized response right this uh overly dramatic well how could you yeah the indignation
01:55:37that comes with it i can see times i can imagine a lot of times where it goes what do you mean like
01:55:43yes that thing happened yes how do you not see it because the so indignation yes a useful tool right
01:55:49because it actually mirrors what you would do if you were telling the truth yeah it's like i really
01:55:55wasn't doing that thing but i mean i find that in indignation is very much related to fear like it's
01:56:02it's all tied to something of i'm not i'm not enough i'm not being believed i have no i have no
01:56:07worth what am i doing and so it goes back to that idea of the truth is the truth for me you can
01:56:14choose to take it or i choose to not but i can't i can't make you believe that but i know what i'm
01:56:20living with and i'm living with a clear conscience here and should you not believe it that's that's
01:56:26your choice but the ones who are not being fully honest they know that they're not and they know
01:56:31what they're living with and they know what's true and what's not true and usually some a little bit
01:56:36of signs is they'll start to question it and they have this very unregulated response ruptures hurt
01:56:43relationships a lot what does gold standard repair look like to you how do people come back together
01:56:50after an argument this is big um my wife and i we have kind of set up we did this a few weeks ago
01:57:01of like a system of for us as a couple how do how best can i show up for her and she show up for me
01:57:10when it comes to repair you've been together for 15 years yeah but still even dude it's it's wait
01:57:16just wait all right it's it's it has time means nothing i just assumed given your professional
01:57:22career that this might have been a a year three or four or five things what do you think i learned all
01:57:27this it's because i made a lot of mistakes man yeah is this this is all part of it's either you know
01:57:33this information or any information either because you learned at a great personal cost and risk or
01:57:38you're just making it up and like i i've learned all this because of my life experience research
01:57:44is me such as they say yeah that's exactly right and so yeah we've done smatterings of things but
01:57:50we decided to actually put something down and i'd say the number one thing you have to do to kind of
01:57:55come back from an argument is number one ownership you need to own what you said or own what you did
01:58:03it's the element of i did that i said this not trying to look i did this because you did
01:58:12that that's that gets no points zero score that doesn't doesn't help you at all when you start to
01:58:17you know well if you hadn't have said this i wouldn't have like that's toxic and that's no
01:58:22good if it's a full you got to take it on the chin ownership hey what i said not cool what i said i
01:58:31own that i did say this and it's a true apology and then you have to to go into this element of
01:58:40acknowledgement and affirmation meaning
01:58:43i can only imagine that that made you feel hurt that made you feel upset that made you feel less
01:58:50than that made you question you know my my feelings whatever it is you have to kind of feel the feelings
01:58:57from their perspective of what you would assume you probably emotional still exactly yeah yeah
01:59:01this this i imagine that they made you feel like this or of course you'd be upset about this i could
01:59:07why wouldn't you be upset about that yeah i said something big and then three it's the element of
01:59:13we're still a team i'm still working towards this you kind of have to have this element of hope where
01:59:20it's we're going to still continue to work this out we're going to continue to get better at this you
01:59:25gotta you gotta keep working through it and it's depending on what you did there's got to be apologies
01:59:30of course i wonder whether most relationship failure is just bad communication obviously
01:59:37there's incompatibilities there's fundamental fundamental problems that are insurmountable
01:59:43there's a line from visakhan verasami he calls it uh the divorce paradox says why is it that so many
01:59:50people separate from someone who seemed to be their favorite person and it's because bad times are a
01:59:56far better predictor of relationship longevity than good times are it's how you deal with disagreement
02:00:01not how you enjoy wonder that determines relationship longevity very few people have
02:00:08ended a relationship because there were insufficient peak moments when you compare them to the number of
02:00:15people who've ended relationships because there were far too many bad ones too much rupture without
02:00:21repair as opposed to too little skydiving with a parachute yeah yeah i i believe that the quality
02:00:29of the relationship doesn't depend on how good are the good times it's can you be with them through
02:00:36the the bad times i'm good at the bad times yeah exactly the hard the really hard conversations
02:00:41because that's those are invitations to grow deeper together to bond more to get closer together to be
02:00:49known to be fully known with that person you don't get that in the first few dates you get that in the
02:00:5415 year knockdown drag out who am i what am i doing conversations that's where you get to see really
02:01:01what's what's there inside i mean you have to find the bottom to know what's how far you can go up what
02:01:08have you come to believe about choosing a good partner that is hard work doesn't matter even if
02:01:15you're somebody who talks about communication or you're somebody for however long you've been married
02:01:19it's it's hard work i don't know anybody that has been in a long-term relationship or finding
02:01:27their person of course you want somebody you can be a friend with and you can buy somebody you can
02:01:33be vulnerable with um but more importantly you need to have somebody that you communicate well with
02:01:41if you don't have communication right to me that's a that's a relationship that's not going to have
02:01:48longevity to it because it feels good in the moment but in year six year seven year ten you had kids
02:01:57into the mix that didn't help conversation it's it puts conversation problems on steroids now every
02:02:03little fissure and crack gets highlighted and it's more stress and then you got kids schedules and
02:02:08somebody's got soccer practice and somebody has a dentist appointment and then things to just get
02:02:13it's it's way way harder in that element and so you have to have somebody who communicates well with
02:02:19you and honestly chris somebody who can put up with your ugly somebody who because you're going to have
02:02:25those just moments where it's not a good look just not a good look it wasn't me at my best yeah yeah
02:02:31and and they know that they they're not going to punish you for it they know it wasn't and they're
02:02:39going to choose that their love is big enough for that bad moment and know that it's not always going
02:02:45to be that bad moment but at the same time they're going to expect you to come out of it and go
02:02:49yeah i could handle that better not blame them for your bad moment what's the most fascinating thing
02:02:57about being a trial lawyer that you've learned after spending so much time in it that people from
02:03:02outside of your industry don't know or don't understand it's different in the sense of you're
02:03:09having to have like you know the movie inception okay like who doesn't it's it's like you're you're
02:03:20having a conversation within a conversation i'm having to prove a point within a point and so
02:03:28i am hired to have problems with somebody i don't have problems with right and all of a
02:03:34sudden their problems have now become mine and now i'm advocating on their behalf i'm being their
02:03:39voice and now this other person's hired somebody to have problems with me right and so it's now
02:03:45attorneys arguing second-hand removed from the people who are actually in the conflict and then
02:03:52now i'm going to present this case to 12 people in a judge in a courtroom of what case should be
02:04:00less standing now it depends on the facts in the case and everything else but you are having to have
02:04:06a conversation that is not even being said for example as soon as you walk into the courtroom
02:04:12all eyes are on you if you hear a piece of evidence that's bad for you and i go what does that tell the
02:04:21jury you go oh this must be really bad for them but if i stay calm and controlled as if like i
02:04:27expected to hear that doesn't hit that way regardless of whether you did or not exactly
02:04:33and then even when i've seen this a lot where if anybody's been in jury they've seen attorneys
02:04:39approach the bench council approaches bench they come up and they usually play some kind of noise
02:04:44white noise something to where you can't hear what the judges and the attorneys are saying
02:04:49no way yeah yeah yeah oh that's fun and so should put some tunes on instead they really should play
02:04:53some cardi b oh i think that would be that'd be pretty baller that would be pretty cool uh you're
02:04:58up there and you're like yeah just some kindred yeah um and so you you're talking and they always
02:05:06say it's they watch who leaves and the reaction of the attorneys because usually the judge is ruling
02:05:12on something that the jury can't hear on some it's a matter of law that would sway the case and if the
02:05:17attorney is walking away defeated they go oh something must have happened or if the attorney
02:05:24is always objecting that's the worst you have to be really selective with your objections so let's say
02:05:28a witness is about to say something and i it seems like it'd be something big and i have seen up and i
02:05:33object and the judge sustains it and they skip to the testimony they go oh he he's hiding something
02:05:41from me he must not want me to know everything so what is this what am i teaching i'm saying you are
02:05:47having a conversation all with your body language your whole presence how calm and controlled you are
02:05:52how can you be the most credible in the room without having nothing to do with the actual
02:05:56facts of the case and you do that a lot by being the person who they go that person's telling me
02:06:03the truth that's the truth teller i can tell by how confident controlled measured they are they
02:06:09don't seem like they're worried and anxious about every little thing the witness is going to say
02:06:12which is interesting because that can be taught and engineered to a large margin so it's just levels of
02:06:20deception that are more sophisticated than the levels of detection and the thing is it exists
02:06:26in every conversation not just in the courtroom i mean dude look at ufc fights and boxing fights
02:06:31that go the distance yeah both fighters put their hand up right go oh yeah exactly at the very end
02:06:36it's the exact same as you walking away from the bench you might as well you might actually next
02:06:39time do this for me let's do that see if it works let's i'll try dude if it works i that i'll give
02:06:44you all the credit thank you yeah that's good okay so lots of different techniques around communication
02:06:51at least for me the main thing that the main thing that i'm taking away or one of the main things i'm
02:06:57taking away is a degree of consideration for the other person that seems to be like a real through
02:07:02line with a lot of what we're going on here that um holding your ground being assertive
02:07:08and also being understanding about what what we're doing here that kind of consideration is important
02:07:18if there's one principle that people should hold on to when it comes to
02:07:22good interpersonal communication what would it be
02:07:30but one conversation is typically not enough you need a lot of them meaning
02:07:36we put a lot of pressure on one single conversation and that that increases the anxiety increases the
02:07:44the fear of the moment that i'm going to say the wrong thing do the wrong thing and you're putting
02:07:49a hype on a conversation that didn't need to have that kind of hype on it because really it should
02:07:53be the opposite it should be a hey i'm talking to you about this because you matter a lot to me
02:07:59and at the end of this we're still going to be best friends and we're still going to go to dinner
02:08:03together tonight and we're still going to do x y and z i just because i love you i need to tell you
02:08:08this this was on my heart you know that's rather than me trying to push everything at once versus
02:08:14if i were to say i like the let's say it's a big
02:08:20big important thing that needs to take some time i'd like to have a conversation with you over
02:08:24the next few weeks i'd like to have a conversation over this month to talk about x y and z whenever
02:08:32you say that this is a conversation it's going to take some time it automatically lowers everybody's
02:08:39anxiety rather than you having to decide this is the moment right here choose to be with me
02:08:44not be with me where are we doing what are we not doing it it hypes that what if i get it wrong
02:08:50feeling and there's a lot of times there's more conversation that that needs to be had another
02:08:55i'd say is it's it's that element of having something to learn not something to prove
02:09:00when you feel like you have to prove my point people who have something to prove are the ones
02:09:08that always have to push their opinion how dare you believe what you believe and not what i how dare you
02:09:13have an idea that's not mine and go with something else versus questioning in a very curious way that's
02:09:21like you said what you like is that perspective seeking how can i how can i encourage the pursuit
02:09:29of perspective how can i get really disciplined on knowing where your thoughts come from
02:09:39where did you learn it how long have you believed it where did that originate that's something you
02:09:44taught yourself or is that something you came across from really hardship and the more you
02:09:50give people time to share with that the more they're going to open up to you and realize you
02:09:56are a safe place for to share these kinds of things and not harden up dude you're great let's bring this
02:10:03one home i appreciate the heck out of you where should people go to check out everything that
02:10:06you've got going on and go to jeffersonfisher.com or social media jeffersonfisher beautiful thanks
02:10:11man denny's cheesecake factory what do you think let's yeah let's do that so i think um you go outback
02:10:17you got outback is that steakhouse yeah yeah sure let's okay like a blooming onion or something
02:10:21cool all right goodbye everybody thanks for having me bro thank you very much for tuning in if you
02:10:29enjoyed that episode youtube knows who you are deeply it thinks you're gonna like this one even
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