00:00:00Talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time.
00:00:03We've seen increases in it, the types changed, what's the context of people getting different
00:00:09looks?
00:00:10The Kardashians did the VBL for a while, is that still in?
00:00:14Now it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women.
00:00:17So they are actually, boob jobs are very popular among that cohort.
00:00:22I do think that's influenced by pornography.
00:00:24Also labiaplasty.
00:00:25I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women, very many young
00:00:30women feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done,
00:00:35which is also influenced from porn.
00:00:37And it, I mean, it's just crazy to me.
00:00:39It makes me wonder, is that why people are not interested in having sex?
00:00:42And with guys, guys are getting filler injections into their penis for even sexting purposes.
00:00:46Like they just want to look better.
00:00:49George, my housemate used to make this joke every time that we're on a plane.
00:00:56It was the same, you know, someone, it's kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad.
00:01:01And you know, those teeny tiny 175 ml cans of Diet Coke.
00:01:05Yeah.
00:01:06He would always say, it's like, I keep a hold of one of those and I go back and I take a
00:01:09dick pic with it in the background.
00:01:10So it would make it look, you know, it's like, oh, that's a 330 or a 355 ml pan, but I've
00:01:15kept the, I've kept the airplane mini and that's, you know, comparatively.
00:01:18I should be doing that instead of getting the filler in their penis.
00:01:20I agree.
00:01:21I agree.
00:01:22Make Diet Coke, mini Diet Coke's great again.
00:01:25So yeah, I mean the labiaplasty in the penis stuff, it seems to be obvious that it would
00:01:32be influenced by porn.
00:01:33But even things like, I see like news reports of women under 30 getting facelifts and getting
00:01:39upper eyelifts, right?
00:01:40And I, in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive
00:01:45work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify.
00:01:49What do you think they're trying to do?
00:01:51Well, I think if you look at, say when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid twenties.
00:01:56So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid twenties.
00:01:59So if you're older than that, you're going to try and look younger.
00:02:01And if you're younger, you're trying to look older.
00:02:04And so you're going to use, you're going to choose the most fertile in the mid twenties,
00:02:08early to mid twenties.
00:02:09Right.
00:02:10Yeah.
00:02:11Have you ever found out some really uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile?
00:02:18Really young.
00:02:19Yeah.
00:02:20It's really young.
00:02:21Like illegal in some states, young, and you go, really?
00:02:26Which is just, I don't know.
00:02:27We talk about women's biological clocks.
00:02:30We never really think about, there's so much sperm, right?
00:02:35Speak for yourself.
00:02:36But there's so much sperm and you only need one window though.
00:02:39They also have a larger, like men can still impregnate someone.
00:02:41Later on in life, there are higher rates of chromosomal abnormalities, but the potential,
00:02:46whereas for women, it's, it's a little bit more unforgiving.
00:02:50But anyway, so you think, well, I've seen what is buckle, buccal fat, buccal fat, buckle fat
00:02:57removal.
00:02:58Yeah.
00:02:59The cheek, cheek fat thing.
00:03:00Yeah.
00:03:01What's that trying to achieve?
00:03:02Do you think?
00:03:03To look older because you're removing the baby fat essentially in your face.
00:03:06But what happens is as you get older, your face naturally loses fat, right?
00:03:10And so you're going to look more gaunt and you might potentially need to use filler too.
00:03:16So I used, I got fat removal before I was 24 and then after I was 28, I had to use filler
00:03:26to replace where I got rid of the fat, right?
00:03:29Yeah.
00:03:30I mean, I, so I want to be clear, like I don't want to come down on men and women if they
00:03:32choose to get these procedures because I understand, especially if you have a public facing job,
00:03:37there's a lot of pressure to keep your looks up and to look young.
00:03:40But my concern is more so when it's really young people or I would say even for men who
00:03:45are doing this, you really don't need to.
00:03:47It is brutal.
00:03:48I mean, some of the young girls, it's supposed to be young girls that I've seen videos of
00:03:55on TikTok.
00:03:56There's like 22, 23 year old chicks and they look mid thirties or forties with all of this
00:04:03work that's been done.
00:04:05And I was, I was thinking, I was having a conversation last night about how the sort
00:04:12of ideal female form has changed even with sort of relatively extreme cosmetic procedures.
00:04:18So Geordie Shore, which was the British equivalent of Jersey Shore, that back in the day was a
00:04:24lot about fake tan.
00:04:27It was big hair.
00:04:28It was almost pinupy in a way.
00:04:30There was, it was tight suits too, weren't they?
00:04:33That's because of, that's something else, but yes, that was sort of part-
00:04:36Chavs.
00:04:37I learned what chav was.
00:04:38Chav.
00:04:39Chavs.
00:04:40Exactly.
00:04:41Well, look, be careful, right?
00:04:42Is that offensive?
00:04:43No, those were my customers.
00:04:44It's kind of like calling someone a hick.
00:04:45Oh, okay.
00:04:46I mean it with love.
00:04:47Me too.
00:04:48But those were my customers for a very long time.
00:04:51It was fake tan.
00:04:52It was big boobs, maybe augmented, maybe not.
00:04:57Brows too.
00:04:58Very specific eyebrows.
00:04:59It was painted on sort of aggressive brows, big hair, tight dress, short dress, right?
00:05:05I love that.
00:05:06Just to be clear, I'm not making fun of it.
00:05:08That aesthetic.
00:05:09Strong aesthetic.
00:05:10Great early 2010s aesthetic.
00:05:12And the guy's equivalent, I think up until probably about five years ago, we were a little
00:05:18bit delayed on the guy's thing, was sort of big muscles, not so concerned with height,
00:05:24fake tan, plunging v-neck neckline, tight jeans, expensive watch thing.
00:05:33Jeans?
00:05:34Yeah, maybe.
00:05:35But what I was trying to do with this conversation I was having last night, which was so interesting,
00:05:38I was trying to work out what was being signaled then and what's being signaled now.
00:05:45Okay.
00:05:46I think what's being signaled now is a more extreme version of that by both men and women.
00:05:56So the male thing, it's all about formidability now.
00:06:00It's the over-exaggerated handsome Squidward cheekbones and the jawline.
00:06:06It's the height, the height.
00:06:09But it's a lot less to do with, I'm not really seeing anyone talk about tan all that much.
00:06:14But even seeing, if you look at dark brows are really big for guys, the most popular looks
00:06:18maxes aren't that concerned with muscularity, extreme muscularity in the way that it would
00:06:23have been 10 years ago.
00:06:2410 years ago, it would have just been get as wide and as muscular as possible.
00:06:28That's not quite the case now.
00:06:29And then with the women, both of them are basically caricatures of the most sexually dimorphic
00:06:35physical traits.
00:06:36Right?
00:06:37Like the Geryon runaway, I think it's called, where the stag deer that's got antlers so big
00:06:45that he can't lift his head up and he dies.
00:06:47The peacock that's got such a ridiculous tail that he gets caught with the first second there's
00:06:50a predator around.
00:06:51But like he did some great boning on the way out.
00:06:55That seems to be what's happening with men and women now.
00:06:59It's just a more, what the next evolution, it's more extreme limb lengthening surgery,
00:07:03the brows, the cheekbones, the mandible surgery, all that stuff.
00:07:07For women especially, I think it can also be the equivalent of showing off an expensive
00:07:11handbag.
00:07:12So instead of saying, here's my designer bag or here's my designer titties, or, you know,
00:07:16that my lips or whatever, like I have a man who will pay for my surgery and make me look
00:07:20like this.
00:07:21It's a good argument for why I've heard about why women have long nails and long hair.
00:07:28It's just fucking impractical.
00:07:31It is itself a status of wealth and luxury that not only can I maintain them, but I have
00:07:40a life that requires so little hard labor that this hair and these nails and this makeup.
00:07:45I mean, the female intersexual competition is just like fucking endlessly interesting,
00:07:50right?
00:07:51Like shoes and bags, exclusively intersexual.
00:07:56I do not know the difference between whatever you're wearing and something that was one tenth
00:08:00the price and something that was a thousand times the price, I have no idea.
00:08:04But women do.
00:08:05Women, women know.
00:08:07And if you're in a relationship, it's basically my man is so invested in me that he spent however
00:08:14much money on this thing.
00:08:16So like, don't think, don't even think about going there.
00:08:19Which is why I also think that women tend to go a little bit overboard in some cases with
00:08:23the work done as a way to signal that they have the money and the resources or man that
00:08:27is paying for it.
00:08:29Because usually when you think of plastic surgery, men don't like plastic surgery typically.
00:08:33Men, they don't like it in women because it masks their underlying health and fertility,
00:08:38right?
00:08:39So if a woman can turn back the clock in terms of aging, signs of aging, or appear more attractive
00:08:44than she naturally was, or maybe you don't mind so much, but from the conversations I've
00:08:48had with men, men tend to not really like plastic surgery.
00:08:50No, I agree.
00:08:51They prefer natural beauty.
00:08:52I agree.
00:08:53I saw this tweet after the Grammys that fucking ripped, and it was, "Men love Sydney Sweeney
00:09:01and hate Sabrina Carpenter.
00:09:04Women love Sabrina Carpenter and hate Sydney Sweeney."
00:09:07And the explanation that I saw, I was so fascinated by it, and it seems to be pretty accurate.
00:09:12I don't know that many guys that like, "I love Sabrina Carpenter."
00:09:16And I don't know that many women that love Sydney Sweeney.
00:09:19That's funny.
00:09:20I've seen this.
00:09:21I mean, I think they're both pretty, so I don't know.
00:09:22I guess I'm like one of the odd ones.
00:09:23I think they need to be more judgmental.
00:09:26The best explanation that I saw was that Sabrina Carpenter, her physical presentation is basically
00:09:33gay and female-coded, and Sydney Sweeney is sort of low-maintenance, natural, male-coded
00:09:43beauty, less sort of curated in that sort of a way, and that low-maintenance thing seems
00:09:51to come across.
00:09:52I think the reliable signal of fitness cue that's being sort of hidden by lots of plastic
00:10:04surgery is so true, and I get the sense that the Lux Maxing community for men is doing
00:10:10the same thing.
00:10:11I was going to ask you about that.
00:10:12Like, what are your views?
00:10:13Because when I write about this, I get a lot of young men who get upset at me and say, "You
00:10:18don't understand, right?
00:10:19This is the time."
00:10:20"This is the time for the fucking patriarchy to step in," writing as a woman.
00:10:25Sit down.
00:10:26Let me explain to you.
00:10:27What do I think?
00:10:29I think I have a really fucking...
00:10:32I think this is an interesting take.
00:10:34My advice to guys is just work away, get rich, honestly.
00:10:39Get rich.
00:10:40Don't worry about all the taking the hormones to make your bone structure-
00:10:43I would say get rich, get popular.
00:10:47Lux are important, but you can make some pretty good changes just by becoming more diligent.
00:10:53What I would say about the Lux Maxing thing is, what guys seem to be optimizing for is
00:10:59formidability.
00:11:01So they're optimizing for the sort of things that other men respect, not that women are
00:11:04attracted to.
00:11:06So other men would...
00:11:08If you look at most guys that have Lux Maxed and put them in front of women, I wonder whether
00:11:13women would find them more attractive.
00:11:15So it's intersexual competition again.
00:11:17Or whether men would find them more formidable.
00:11:18I think that more men would find them more formidable than more women would find them
00:11:22more attractive.
00:11:23Because most women are not looking for their guys to be hyper, hyper masculine like that.
00:11:28There's even some evidence to suggest that women prefer a slightly feminized face with
00:11:32a masculinized body.
00:11:34And not super jacked either.
00:11:35No, not super jacked.
00:11:37But they want average face or sometimes actually slightly feminized face with masculinized body.
00:11:44So, all of the guys are just pushing toward heavier brow, deeper jaw, stronger cheekbones.
00:11:51But you know the David Putz study that he did about when he brought people into the lab and
00:11:56got women to rate attractiveness and men to rate formidability?
00:12:00Remind me.
00:12:01So fucking good.
00:12:02So, photos of guys shown to women and men.
00:12:05Women were asked to rank, how attractive do you think this man is?
00:12:08Men were asked to rank, how likely do you think it is that you could beat this other man in
00:12:12a fight?
00:12:14One year later, they brought the men from the photos into the lab and asked what their sexual
00:12:20success had been over the last year.
00:12:22And the female ratings of attractiveness had basically zero predictive power for the sexual
00:12:27success.
00:12:28But the male ratings of formidability were very predictive.
00:12:32So even though what I think is happening at level one, this is like the Epstein files.
00:12:38Level one, where he didn't kill himself, is Lux Maxis are optimizing for formidability
00:12:48because they're disregarding women.
00:12:50And it's intra-sexual competition because I just want to morgue other guys.
00:12:53I just want to be better than other men.
00:12:56Level two, Epstein's still alive and playing Fortnite in Israel, is actually by pursuing
00:13:02formidability, they may end up closing their eyes and throwing the dart at the dartboard
00:13:06and hitting the bullseye of women actually finding them more attractive than if they tried
00:13:11to pursue attractiveness as the main outcome.
00:13:13But this is, again, this is working theory at the moment.
00:13:17Yeah, I mean, because I could see that in terms of tattoos, there have been studies to show
00:13:20that men, when they get tattoos, it actually is more so about scaring off their male rivals
00:13:27because women don't, some women like tattoos, but not all do.
00:13:30And some women actually are turned off by tattoos.
00:13:32So it's more, again, like you said, of scaring off and beating your rivals than directly
00:13:37attracting women.
00:13:38But I also wonder if it's that these men are projecting onto women their preferences.
00:13:43So men care more about looks and, you know, youth.
00:13:47So I wonder if when you look at, say, marriage or marital satisfaction, men say, whether men
00:13:54find their wives attractive has a greater correlation with their marital satisfaction than whether
00:14:00women find their husbands attractive.
00:14:02So I wonder if these young guys are projecting onto women thinking that women care so much
00:14:07about looks when it's actually, that's what they care about in their partners.
00:14:10Oh, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading using their own assessment criteria and saying,
00:14:18you must think the way that I think, I'll do more beautification.
00:14:21Well, Mac and Murphy's got this great idea where he talks about how the increases in male
00:14:27beautification are to try and offset this inability to get hypogamy to work, that men
00:14:33have realized that because they can't win socioeconomically, they might have to turn the vanity mirror
00:14:42round in an attempt to out beautify their socioeconomic lack.
00:14:48Yeah, especially when they're young and they're just starting out in their career and they're
00:14:50thinking, okay, how do I attract women?
00:14:52I don't have the money yet.
00:14:53I don't have the resources.
00:14:54Well, I can just get really hot.
00:14:57There's worse theories.
00:14:59There are worse theories.
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00:16:01Thank you very much for tuning in.
00:16:03Ooh, a tasty morsel of a clip there for you.
00:16:06Well, the full episode is available right here.
00:16:10Come on, that's it.